Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: amiga1260 on August 21, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
Title: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: amiga1260 on August 21, 2010, 10:24:40 PM
I own the original kickstart ROM 3.1 and 1.3. Can I use these ROM images legally for WHDLoad?
I ask this question, because I want to know, if this option is legally. Or do I need to buy Amiga Forever to be legally?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: CSixx on August 21, 2010, 10:26:59 PM
Yes you can.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: amiga1260 on August 22, 2010, 09:11:53 PM
Thank you for your answer.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Pentad on August 22, 2010, 11:02:01 PM
Does anyone know who actually owns the Kickstart Roms and source code? Is it Amiga, Inc? Do they know?? :-)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: persia on August 22, 2010, 11:21:42 PM
Yes, at least currently, Amiga Inc owns the ROMs and Cloanto and Hyperion have rights to distribute them.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: KThunder on August 22, 2010, 11:27:23 PM
Cloanto probably knows. It might actually be a couple different entities. Gateway might own certain IP. Amiga Inc. might. Lets see here anyone want a chunk? Hyperion has some rights to something Ainc can't legally take back or something.
ah persia beat me to the punch. well IIRC gateway still has some IP involvement too, probably some patents they still hold but dont do much with
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Rob on August 23, 2010, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: persia;575724
Yes, at least currently, Amiga Inc owns the ROMs and Cloanto and Hyperion have rights to distribute them.
I don't think Hyperion has the rights to distribute the ROMs.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: KThunder on August 23, 2010, 01:24:36 AM
Hyperion has some rights to develop and release os4. I think Amiga inc tried to take that away from them and Hyperion took them to court and won.
If you have an Amiga or roms or Amiga Forever you have the right to use the rom files.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 10:18:50 AM
So when it comes to selling "real" Kickstart ROM chips (from the likes of AmigaKit, etc) the who do they get permission from and who is making them?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 10:22:16 AM
One of the reasons I ask is because I wonder whether Minimig type products could be sold with an optional pre-configured SD Card with Kickstart ROM images and/or Workbench Hard File(s) installed if they are sold with real ROM chips and floppy disks.
Or, even cheaper, sold with a link and code for Amiga Forever "Value Edition" which would only add $10 to the price.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: kolla on August 23, 2010, 11:52:16 AM
Except that the Minimig firmware that people typically use is not capable of using the "encripled" ROMs that come with AmigaForever.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 01:24:53 PM
Quote from: kolla;575805
Except that the Minimig firmware that people typically use is not capable of using the "encripled" ROMs that come with AmigaForever.
They may be encrypted, but they are still the actual ROMs, so putting "clean" versons on the SD Card with encrypted versons in Amiga Forever shouldn't matter, should it?. After all, you can rip clean versions of the ROMs from Amiga forever by running ROM-ripper software from within a running Workbench.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: psxphill on August 23, 2010, 01:37:09 PM
Quote from: Darrin;575818
They may be encrypted, but they are still the actual ROMs, so putting "clean" versons on the SD Card with encrypted versons in Amiga Forever shouldn't matter, should it?. After all, you can rip clean versions of the ROMs from Amiga forever by running ROM-ripper software from within a running Workbench.
If you're talking 100% legally worldwide for commercial use then no, they aren't the same.
You'd need to get a license from the rights holder, unless another licensee has the rights to ship unencrypted kickstart roms & you can do a deal with them.
Doing a deal with Amiga Forever and getting minimig to work off encrypted images would probably be your best bet. Whether you'd still be able to bundle the file on the SD card, I don't know.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: AndyLandy on August 23, 2010, 01:52:35 PM
Quote from: Darrin;575786
So when it comes to selling "real" Kickstart ROM chips (from the likes of AmigaKit, etc) the who do they get permission from and who is making them?
Odds are they're old stock that were licensed back in the day.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: psxphill;575823
If you're talking 100% legally worldwide for commercial use then no, they aren't the same.
You'd need to get a license from the rights holder, unless another licensee has the rights to ship unencrypted kickstart roms & you can do a deal with them.
Doing a deal with Amiga Forever and getting minimig to work off encrypted images would probably be your best bet. Whether you'd still be able to bundle the file on the SD card, I don't know.
I wonder if the Amiga Forever ROMs are encrypted as part of the agreement to use them or to stop people using them with free UAE.
I figured that if you "own" the soft Kickstart then you should be able to use it on whatever machine you want to (PC, Minimig, etc) and decrypt it if you wish.
If that's the case then supplying it decrypted on an SD Card along with the Amiga Forever package shouldn't break the rules as long as it is exactly the same version of the Kickstart, should it?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: AndyLandy;575825
Odds are they're old stock that were licensed back in the day.
I'd have thought those 3.1 ROMs would have run out years ago. :)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: psxphill on August 23, 2010, 02:23:35 PM
Quote from: Darrin;575827
I'd have thought those 3.1 ROMs would have run out years ago. :)
Mask roms have a minimum order qty, especially if you want good pricing. Sales since then are unlikely to have been that high.
Especially as alot of people either softkick it or burn their own rom, if you need to fix a real amiga then it's probably cheaper to buy an old one second hand and strip it for parts or buy parts second hand.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Golem!dk on August 23, 2010, 02:42:14 PM
Quote from: psxphill;575835
Mask roms have a minimum order qty, especially if you want good pricing. Sales since then are unlikely to have been that high.
At least some dealers have been selling (E)PROMs.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: psxphill on August 23, 2010, 05:59:16 PM
Quote from: Golem!dk;575840
At least some dealers have been selling (E)PROMs.
That is pretty weird. I can't see that it's even worth peoples time even thinking about burning roms.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 23, 2010, 07:32:54 PM
Quote from: psxphill;575856
That is pretty weird. I can't see that it's even worth peoples time even thinking about burning roms.
I dunno, buying some spare EPROMs for a couple of dollars and sticking 3.1 onto them and selling them for $20-$30 a set seems like a decent little diversion..
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 10:04:37 PM
To be honest, I'm surprised nobody is eBaying "3.2" ROMs with the OS3.9 ROM updates included.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: kolla on August 23, 2010, 10:37:28 PM
Quote from: Darrin;575826
I wonder if the Amiga Forever ROMs are encrypted as part of the agreement to use them or to stop people using them with free UAE.
But you can use them with free UAE, and even the original Minimig firmware. It was later removed to give room for more usefull features :)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 23, 2010, 11:02:47 PM
I think with Amiga Inc. and silly billy now dissapeared, its about time they get declared free. If anyone has a complete set of roms I would be happy to host them. If someone threatens to sue me, I'll let everyone know.
Legally... I mean any legal protection for those has to be expired by now, since they are so old. They, along with the source code to all amiga os, especially os3.1+ should just be left to the remaining amiga community.
While I appreciate what cloanto and others do, its kind of ridiculous that someone is still trying to make money off of 15 and 20 year old rom images or 15 and 20 year old operating systems.
Just my humble opinion....
Steven
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: CSixx on August 23, 2010, 11:19:11 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;575900
If someone threatens to sue me, I'll let everyone know.
I agree with you and think that anyone claiming to own the roms would have a very hard time proving it in court.
However, Cloanto says they would do just that: " because we are licensees of multiple components from different parties, we are part of a chain of responsibilities, both contractual and determined by local jurisdictions, when it comes to information about unlicensed ROM and operating system files, or copies of Amiga Forever. When we receive reports about web sites which are claimed to provide such files, we are obliged by law and by contract to take some action. This could be a friendly informative email to the webmaster, which usually concludes the matter in an amicable and constructive way for all parties, or, more regrettably, it could escalate all the way to the ISP and to local computer crime authorities. When this happens, we consider this a failure, and we feel very badly about this."
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Franko on August 23, 2010, 11:31:52 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;575900
I think with Amiga Inc. and silly billy now dissapeared, its about time they get declared free. If anyone has a complete set of roms I would be happy to host them. If someone threatens to sue me, I'll let everyone know.
Legally... I mean any legal protection for those has to be expired by now, since they are so old. They, along with the source code to all amiga os, especially os3.1+ should just be left to the remaining amiga community.
While I appreciate what cloanto and others do, its kind of ridiculous that someone is still trying to make money off of 15 and 20 year old rom images or 15 and 20 year old operating systems.
Just my humble opinion....
Steven
I agree wholeheartedly and applaud your stance on this issue. :cool:
For those of us not interested in the overblown requirements for OS4 or for running an emulator, then any company still trying to make a quick buck from KS rom images and holding the Amiga community to ransom should not be supported or encouraged. :)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Darrin on August 23, 2010, 11:32:36 PM
Quote from: kolla;575896
But you can use them with free UAE, and even the original Minimig firmware. It was later removed to give room for more usefull features :)
Ah, I thought Jakub had allowed the use of AF encrypted ROMs. I always used straight ripped ROMs so I never paid much attention, however I was wondering how he had managed to cram in support for hard files without the ARM board. :)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 24, 2010, 03:37:24 AM
Well cloanto may have some claim to the roms they provide with their package, due to changes they may have made. If anyone has a copy of roms they pulled from their actual amiga computers, I would be happy to host them for free download.
Just started a new job or I'd find some time to pull the rom files from my amiga 1200 with 3.1 rom, amiga 500 with 1.3 rom, and other amiga 500 with 2.1 rom. Surely someone must have already done this? if so pm me if you can provide copies for hosting.
Steven
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Gulliver on August 24, 2010, 03:56:06 AM
:)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: biggun on August 24, 2010, 08:05:11 AM
I think the best that could ever happen for the AMIGA community would be freeing the AMIGA Kickstart.
If believe if Kickstart would be free this will give AMIGA a new momentum.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on August 24, 2010, 08:17:02 AM
Quote from: biggun;575942
I think the best that could ever happen for the AMIGA community would be freeing the AMIGA Kickstart.
If believe if Kickstart would be free this will give AMIGA a new momentum.
Why do you need it free? Just be abdle to purchase it for say $20 would fine, but you can't do even that.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: biggun on August 24, 2010, 08:27:41 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;575943
Why do you need it free? Just be abdle to purchase it for say $20 would fine, but you can't do even that.
You are right. That you can not buy the ROMs at all is a major problem. Its not even clear who has the right to the OS at all.
I've read that the rights to Kickstart and the OS were not fully legally licensed by AMIGA Inc. There was a German courtcase once stating that the rigth to the OS were not sold in the gateway sales.
It could be that Kickstart and AMIGA OS are in a legal limbo with no real owner.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Kronos on August 24, 2010, 08:33:30 AM
@biggun
Actually that dates back to the C= auction (read it's been looming eversince Escom).
Villagetronic had exclusive rights to distribute the Kick3.1 upgrade packs under C=, so much is clear. What that contract implied in terms of ownership and bundling AmigaOS with non-C= HW has never been cleared.
The judge also didn't claim that it wasn't part of the sale/auction, only the that he could find no evidence that it was ....
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: biggun on August 24, 2010, 08:42:56 AM
Quote from: Kronos;575947
@biggun The judge also didn't claim that it wasn't part of the sale/auction, only the that he could find no evidence that it was ....
I know that several entities tried to license AMIGA OS from AMIGA Inc. But this failed. During these discussion AMIGA Inc was ask to provide some proof that they actually own the rights to the OS - which they never did.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 24, 2010, 08:49:05 AM
I've bought a few 3.1 roms on ebay that were burnt not amiga nos.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Belial6 on August 24, 2010, 04:55:57 PM
Quote from: biggun;575942
I think the best that could ever happen for the AMIGA community would be freeing the AMIGA Kickstart.
If believe if Kickstart would be free this will give AMIGA a new momentum.
This is why I keep hoping someone with the right skill sets will take on the job of porting AROS to 68k. I know that it isn't totally compatible, but it would be a huge step forward in getting there.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: psxphill on August 24, 2010, 05:11:27 PM
Quote from: Darrin;575890
To be honest, I'm surprised nobody is eBaying "3.2" ROMs with the OS3.9 ROM updates included.
That would be a bit more logical. At least someone might want those. I can't see why anyone would pay more for a rom than they can get a non working machine for (unless the guy who sold you the non working machine has actually stolen the roms out of it).
There can't be that many people who need kickstart roms.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: scuzzb494 on August 24, 2010, 05:47:46 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;575900
I think with Amiga Inc. and silly billy now dissapeared, its about time they get declared free. If anyone has a complete set of roms I would be happy to host them. If someone threatens to sue me, I'll let everyone know.
Legally... I mean any legal protection for those has to be expired by now, since they are so old. They, along with the source code to all amiga os, especially os3.1+ should just be left to the remaining amiga community.
While I appreciate what cloanto and others do, its kind of ridiculous that someone is still trying to make money off of 15 and 20 year old rom images or 15 and 20 year old operating systems.
Just my humble opinion....
Steven
And so wrong on so many levels. Such matters should never be decided at the whim of a community let alone an individual. There are rules and mechanisms to protect the intelectual and legal rights of those that are gifted and minded enough to share their produce. No other person has a right to take such property without the express permission of the creator. You start breaking this rule then next thing you know you'll be downloading music of the internet free, downloading films free, downloading games free etc etc. I mean honestly who wants to be associated with that kind of criminal activity.
They don`t belong to you. Simple.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: biggun on August 24, 2010, 06:30:04 PM
Quote from: scuzzb494;576042
They don`t belong to you. Simple.
Its not that simple.
Imagine some houses on an island close to the coast. And there is a bridge connecting the island with the coast/ main land.
The people living on this island is our AMIGA community. The bridge is the OS.
The people on the island need to go to the mainland for the doctor, to get to work etc. They work be happy to pay a "fee" to use the bridge.
But the company building the bridge went bankrupt and no one knows who owns it no.
This situation is our situation. People would love to pay a fee to use the bridge - but they can't.
In real live the bridge would be made accessible for the people someway or another. But not for the AMIGA community.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: persia on August 24, 2010, 06:38:23 PM
The OS and Kickstart ROMs are available from Cloanto, who has a legal right to sell them. Go out, buy Amiga Forever. it's a great product, and be happy with your legal ROMs and OS.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: biggun on August 24, 2010, 07:08:07 PM
Quote from: persia;576062
The OS and Kickstart ROMs are available from Cloanto, who has a legal right to sell them. Go out, buy Amiga Forever. it's a great product, and be happy with your legal ROMs and OS.
Yes, that's a great solution for people that want to abandon their AMIGA HW i want to emulate an AMIGA on PC-HW.
Its like offering a new bridge to another island - all you need to do is abandon your house and build a new house on the another island.
Unfortunately the people who like their island and want to continue living there are abandoned.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: biggun on August 24, 2010, 07:27:52 PM
I think the situation is like this:
* There are people which like their AMIGA HW and would love to get an updated fixed Kickstart for it.
* There are programmer skilled to update the OS. Bugs could be fixed. Features could be added. And all could be cleanly repacked into Kickstart Version "Whatever". Technical all possible and this could have been done years ago.
And could this be done YES or NO?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 24, 2010, 08:11:20 PM
Kickstart 3.1 is the last official version and it is available on chip either legally from various vendors, or you can get a buddy to make you some if you don't care about staying legal.
Custom "3.9" ROMs have been burned incorporating Boing Bag fixes, these are not required to run 3.9 and are merely a nice touch. If you're skilled enough to make a set or know someone who'll make you one, you're lucky, if not, live with the additional "kick" when you boot up. It's not that bad, really.
Any other customizations to Kickstart really only make sense to hackers messing around with their own systems.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: kolla on August 24, 2010, 08:34:51 PM
@tone007 OK, we'll let you deal with all the people who mess up their systems trying to set up big bisks with big partitions etc.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 24, 2010, 08:39:15 PM
Quote from: kolla;576087
@tone007 OK, we'll let you deal with all the people who mess up their systems trying to set up big bisks with big partitions etc.
I bet most of them would rather have a quick workaround then shell out cash for ROMs! Heaven forbid they learn how something works!
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: orb85750 on August 24, 2010, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: biggun;575945
You are right. That you can not buy the ROMs at all is a major problem. Its not even clear who has the right to the OS at all.
I've read that the rights to Kickstart and the OS were not fully legally licensed by AMIGA Inc. There was a German courtcase once stating that the rigth to the OS were not sold in the gateway sales.
It could be that Kickstart and AMIGA OS are in a legal limbo with no real owner.
Confusing, but who has licensed Cloanto, and who is accepting their money? How/Why?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: kolla on August 24, 2010, 08:49:55 PM
Plugging in a new set of kickstart ROMs _is_ the quick workaround. Cloanto distributes a modified kickstart that pretty much is a OS3.9 kickstart (since when did they get permission to distribute modified kickstarts anyways?), why don't they offer EPROMs with it on, I wonder.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 24, 2010, 08:51:30 PM
Quote from: kolla;576091
Plugging in a new set of kickstart ROMs _is_ the quick workaround.
Not if you count shipping time!
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Lockon_15 on August 24, 2010, 09:27:48 PM
@Kolla Burning ROMs would require some real work, something which disappeared in AF around 2006 - it became something similar like EA's FIFA brand...but market is made for everyone and preferences are alyways feature of an individual. I guess he (Cloanto) make more retail from online editions which are more contributing to overall business case.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 24, 2010, 11:45:17 PM
"And so wrong on so many levels. Such matters should never be decided at the whim of a community let alone an individual. There are rules and mechanisms to protect the intelectual and legal rights of those that are gifted and minded enough to share their produce. "
Whats wrong is people who have no legal right to control these roms still doing so. How long can you rape the corpse of a dead company before you give what should belong to the community back to the community?
I publicly challenge anyone who claims to have the sole rights to distribute images of these roms to sue me after I post them on a public website for anyone to download.
The patents, trademarks, (C)opyrights and IP rights have LONG expired, but those still trying to rape that corpse don't want anyone to know that. This is so they can continue making a few bucks off the amiga corpse.
These rom images SHOULD be posted for free download. Anyone is free to try and sue me for doing so, but I don't see that happening. Could get very expensive proving you have the rights to things made 10, 15 and 20 years ago, when amiga the company and its ip has changed hands 9 times along with IP, trademarks and copy rights.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: persia on August 24, 2010, 11:56:20 PM
Copyright is 50 years, longer I think in the EU. You are right, there is no more Amiga Intellectual property, but the copyright on the code continues. What will happen when you post the roms to your website is that someone will complain to your ISP and your ISP not wanting to be involved in piracy will pull the plug on your site....
The ROMs are ridiculously easy to obtain if you want. Just google them and torrent or rapidshare. Having your website commit suicide over it makes no sense.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 25, 2010, 01:03:45 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;576117
These rom images SHOULD be posted for free download.
Why? Someone has legal rights to them. How about you give me your car for free, I think you should. You didn't invent or create it, it's certainly not yours.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Belial6 on August 25, 2010, 01:29:21 AM
Quote from: tone007;576128
Why? Someone has legal rights to them. How about you give me your car for free, I think you should. You didn't invent or create it, it's certainly not yours.
The "they created it so they should have exclusive rights forever" idea is simply bunk. I have yet to see a single completely original idea. Not one. That includes the Kickstart Roms. I have also not met one single person in my life that has not committed copyright violations. The whole of human society has been built off freely using the ideas of those before you. I'm not going to say that the idea of copyright is inherently wrong, but it is not property. It is not a finite resource. It is damaging to society as a whole for it to last as long as it does, and it is particularly damaging to our culture for it to last as long as it does.
Copyright is the law, but to claim that it is morally right is silly.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 25, 2010, 01:55:00 AM
Quote from: Belial6;576129
Copyright is the law, but to claim that it is morally right is silly.
Morals have no place in the legal system!
psh.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: persia on August 25, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
We're talking two different things here. Yes, ideas get built upon all the time, you should just develop a better kickstart and leave Amiga Inc's alone, that's exactly what happens all the time. The have complete control of their software, but it doesn't mean you can't build your own and build it better. Why do you think AROS was started? It's Amiga like code that doesn't belong to Amiga Inc, nobody is controlling AROS.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Trev on August 25, 2010, 04:01:29 AM
@persia
And much, much longer in the US. Without a corporate owner, the rights to the software might revert to the individual authors, depending on who "owned" the bits in the first place. We won't see a public domain Kickstart until 2085 or so, unless the owner(s) releases it into the public domain. Really.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 25, 2010, 04:05:41 AM
"Why? Someone has legal rights to them. How about you give me your car for free, I think you should. You didn't invent or create it, it's certainly not yours. "
Who has the rights? Who has PROVEN they have the rights legally? No one. No one has ever proven they have the exclusive right to sell or distribute the kickstart rom, a copy of which can be obtained quite legally from MY amiga that I bought so many years ago. Its my rom, I own it, and If I want to give away images of it, you can't sue me for that.
The writers of the roms are gone, and no longer claim rights. The original owners of amiga are gone and no longer claim rights, the owners after that and after that and after that are also gone and no longer claim rights. Show me the legal documents or shut up. PROVE IT, or shut up.
Show me the legal documents and trail from original amiga to the current claimed holders of the "exclusive" rights to copy or distribute these rom chips or images... No one has ever done that.
I can say I own the rights to atari 2600 roms but I can't go suing people or claiming piracy or exclusive rights to sell roms or prevent those who post roms on their websites unless I prove ownership.
Thats all I'm saying, show us the proof... No one ever has, and I suspect its because no one can.
Steven
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: runequester on August 25, 2010, 04:08:29 AM
Quote from: tone007;576128
Why? Someone has legal rights to them. How about you give me your car for free, I think you should. You didn't invent or create it, it's certainly not yours.
Yes. You are absolutely right. The two cases are completely identical, and your statement is not a strawman at all.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 25, 2010, 04:12:36 AM
"
"Why? Someone has legal rights to them. How about you give me your car for free, I think you should. You didn't invent or create it, it's certainly not yours. "
Oh I forgot to mention... I have a legal document to prove I bought my car. I can show anyone proof I own my car. No one has proven they own the roms. No one. Show us the documents. That should settle this whole argument, and if you really did own the roms or rights to the roms, I would think you would certainly want to show that "title" to prevent any misunderstandings.
Steven
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: mongo on August 25, 2010, 04:30:24 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;576140
Who has the rights? Who has PROVEN they have the rights legally? No one. No one has ever proven they have the exclusive right to sell or distribute the kickstart rom, a copy of which can be obtained quite legally from MY amiga that I bought so many years ago. Its my rom, I own it, and If I want to give away images of it, you can't sue me for that.
The writers of the roms are gone, and no longer claim rights. The original owners of amiga are gone and no longer claim rights, the owners after that and after that and after that are also gone and no longer claim rights. Show me the legal documents or shut up. PROVE IT, or shut up.
Show me the legal documents and trail from original amiga to the current claimed holders of the "exclusive" rights to copy or distribute these rom chips or images... No one has ever done that.
I can say I own the rights to atari 2600 roms but I can't go suing people or claiming piracy or exclusive rights to sell roms or prevent those who post roms on their websites unless I prove ownership.
Thats all I'm saying, show us the proof... No one ever has, and I suspect its because no one can.
Steven
Somebody owns the rights. It doesn't matter who it is. What matters is that you don't own the rights. When you can prove that you own the rights, you can distribute the ROM images any way you see fit.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Trev on August 25, 2010, 04:34:51 AM
Quote
Oh I forgot to mention... I have a legal document to prove I bought my car. I can show anyone proof I own my car. No one has proven they own the roms. No one. Show us the documents. That should settle this whole argument, and if you really did own the roms or rights to the roms, I would think you would certainly want to show that "title" to prevent any misunderstandings
Assuming all the legal bits were properly followed, you should have a document somewhere in your possession which states you do not own the software, you've only licensed it. Copy away, I say, but be prepared to face the consequences (not that there will ever be any).
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: AmigaEd on August 25, 2010, 05:59:22 AM
I'm no legal expert, but it seems to me that any company basing their ownership claims, licensing claims, and actions on an agreement with a company that no longer exists is most likely no longer valid. I believe that here in the U.S. an agreement between two business entities is considered dissolved when either one or both of the entities no longer exhibit their interest or no longer exist as companies.
Perhaps a bounty should be created to pay for a lawyer who in turn would file a petition on the behalf of the "Amiga Community" claiming rights to the ROMs. I'm sure the right lawyer could talk stuff like "in the best interest of humanity, infringement of rights, collusion, Eminent Domain, Magna Carta, Manifest Destiny, etc".
If it could be shown that the "Amiga Community" is a class (and i'm sure that it is in some way) then maybe this could done as a "Class Action" lawsuit. It seems like rulings in these types of cases almost always favor the class.
Maybe a ruling or agreement could be reached where all members of the class would receive two new ROMs or a CD-ROM with ROM files for every Amiga that they have. (As if that would ever happen, I'll bet no company would step up to claim ownership if they knew they might have to supply a bunch of ROM chips or CD-ROMS)
If nothing else, the whole issue could get tied up in the courts for years until all of the current entities claiming ownership fold up and disappear. This would leave ownership even more impossible to resolve, dispute or refute. I'm sure some more posers would show up to fill their shoes and to claim their non-existent rights.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2010, 07:15:04 AM
Quote from: mongo;576143
Somebody owns the rights. It doesn't matter who it is. What matters is that you don't own the rights. When you can prove that you own the rights, you can distribute the ROM images any way you see fit.
So by this logic, one could ask Cloanto and whoever to prove their rights.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: LoadWB on August 25, 2010, 07:59:48 AM
Quote from: kolla;576154
So by this logic, one could ask Cloanto and whoever to prove their rights.
See: SCO vs the world. What a mess it would be. From my understanding, the whole Amiga saga is so loose that I would wager very few could prove anything.
But AmigaEd inspires, if I say so myself, an interesting idea. If the USPTO had a method for challenging claimed copyrights and trademarks. Person X or Company Y claims copyright on Article Z, Person A or Company B challenges said claim, essentially a "show me the paperwork" demand. This would be an offensive suit rather than defensive for violation.
I can see how this could easily be abused. Say some Little Guy(tm) copyrights something, and Big Nasty Company(tm) challenges with the intent to bankrupt with legal fees. It should be the onus of the loser to absorb legal costs, which I would think would squash some of the frivolous attacks.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: psxphill on August 25, 2010, 08:47:40 AM
Quote from: AmigaEd;576152
If nothing else, the whole issue could get tied up in the courts for years
I think you understimate the amount of money that you'll need to raise to achieve that.
There is no way that you'd get permission to launch a class action lawsuit either. I can't even work out what your lawsuit would be for & who it would be against.
The easy way to find who owns the rights would be to start advertising and selling minimig along with roms & hope that when/if someone comes along they don't sue you for more money than you made. Thats how big businesses do it.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 25, 2010, 12:17:38 PM
Quote from: runequester;576141
Yes. You are absolutely right. The two cases are completely identical, and your statement is not a strawman at all.
Hurhur, strawman. I'll make my analogies simpler to understand next time. Just as haywirepc has a document to prove he owns his 1978 Ford Pinto, someone somewhere has a document saying they own the rights to the Amiga Kickstart. Whether or not they care to hunt down and sue pirates is another matter. Leaving up a website offering the software for download is a good way to find out if anyone cares.
Quote from: mongo
Somebody owns the rights. It doesn't matter who it is. What matters is that you don't own the rights. When you can prove that you own the rights, you can distribute the ROM images any way you see fit.
+1
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: AmigaEd on August 25, 2010, 12:44:21 PM
Quote from: psxphill;576163
I think you understimate the amount of money that you'll need to raise to achieve that.
No, I didn't underestimate anything. You will notice that I did not mention any monetary amount. I'm sure though that a lawyer could be found who would take this on for a reasonable amount of compensation. The reality is that in this case he would hardly even have to do anything. File a petition here or there, a deposition or two. Some tactical delaying actions in the court. Normal stuff really.
Quote from: psxphill;576163
I can't even work out what your lawsuit would be for & who it would be against.
The lawsuit would be on the behalf of the "Amiga Community" or "Amiga Users" or Amiga Computer Users" or whatever the class would be called. The respondent would any party who claims to own rights to the ROMs. Be that, A Inc, Hyperion, Gateway, or whoever.
The whole beauty of this is that most likely none of them could demonstrate their definitive rights to the ROMs and that the whole thing could be mired in the court for years.
Quote from: psxphill;576163
The easy way to find who owns the rights would be to start advertising and selling minimig along with roms & hope that when/if someone comes along they don't sue you for more money than you made. Thats how big businesses do it.
Clearly someone is going to come along. If you don't cave in early in their attack, their going to start some posturing and perhaps a filing with the court. You said earlier that I underestimated the amount of money needed to initiate a something like this. If that's true, I doubt that any of the companies involved have much money to launch any kind of a formidable attack. Heck, the way they do business they are certainly not making any money. Over the course of several years a bounty could be raised that could give them a challenge. We're clearly not talking about big business here, were talking about companies which may not even exist anymore, which never did, or which are barely eeking out an existence.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: dammy on August 25, 2010, 01:04:06 PM
Best solution is to drop more money into the replacement kickstart bounty. If there is a FOSS version of the kickstart, who needs to pirate AI's IP?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2010, 01:23:17 PM
Lawyers are easier to find than programmers.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: orb85750 on August 25, 2010, 07:51:06 PM
"Leaving up a website offering the software for download is a good way to find out if anyone cares."
Who is going to do it? Any serious volunteers?
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: alexh on August 25, 2010, 08:07:24 PM
Google and you can find everything in a few minutes. Not a problem.
Some of AmigaEd's stuff doesn't read as logical to me. Companies are born and die day in day out and their assets including their patents and copyrighted material belong to their creditors. Other companies cease trading and their copyrights are held by them until they expire even if they are no longer a registered company.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Lockon_15 on August 25, 2010, 09:25:22 PM
An interesting point of view. Just out of boredom... Cloanto has no copyright, just rights for distribution, someone else have that rights correct ? If Cloanto had made a deal with any of still functioning "claimers" of Amiga Kickstart IPs, it might be only limited by a general patent/copyright expiraton. Anything beyond that is a bluff being possible because community is still trapped in 1994, with no clue what to expect from such a mess ? Seriuosly, I doubt, it's like beating a dead horse anyway, getting kickstarts in binary is no-sweat compared to making slaves for WHDLoad.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: haywirepc on August 25, 2010, 11:38:18 PM
Nice Pinto joke. Its interesting that since you disagree with my opinion you have to insult me. When i get some extra time, I plan to launch a new website which will host amiga kick roms, amiga os files and amiga abandonware. I'm very busy so this may take a few weeks even to get started, but I will make it happen.
If anyone has kickstart images or other files you feel would be good for this type of project, feel free to pm me.
Steven
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: tone007 on August 26, 2010, 12:19:00 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;576285
Nice Pinto joke. Its interesting that since you disagree with my opinion you have to insult me.
Insulted by the claim that you drive a Pinto? Why? I mean, sure, they're no AMC Pacer, but I think this is a pretty sweet ride. Heck of a lot more interesting than most of the cars on the road today.
When i get some extra time, I plan to launch a new website which will host amiga kick roms, amiga os files and amiga abandonware.
Not another one!
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: orb85750 on August 26, 2010, 12:19:06 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;576285
Nice Pinto joke. Its interesting that since you disagree with my opinion you have to insult me. When i get some extra time, I plan to launch a new website which will host amiga kick roms, amiga os files and amiga abandonware. I'm very busy so this may take a few weeks even to get started, but I will make it happen.
If anyone has kickstart images or other files you feel would be good for this type of project, feel free to pm me.
Steven
Sounds good. If you do so, I would suggest stating clearly that you're offering such "orphaned" files for free download, and that anyone claiming ownership should send you proof of such ownership with their removal request.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Belial6 on August 26, 2010, 12:29:23 AM
I don't know if you were joking about the Pacer, but I can definitly say that I loved my Pacer. I always figured that it was modeled after the Pylons in Land of the Lost. You know, bigger on the inside than it was on the outside.
As for your car analogy, yes, you may have a piece of paper that says you own it, but if you leave it sitting out on the street long enough with the vin filed off so that no one can identify that you own it, you will lose your ownership pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: AmigaEd on August 26, 2010, 05:16:05 AM
Quote from: alexh;576247
Google and you can find everything in a few minutes. Not a problem.
Some of AmigaEd's stuff doesn't read as logical to me. Companies are born and die day in day out and their assets including their patents and copyrighted material belong to their creditors. Other companies cease trading and their copyrights are held by them until they expire even if they are no longer a registered company.
Yes, I sure some of it doesn't seem logical. It was late when I posted. I think in many cases you would be correct. However, in the case of licensing or distribution rights I'm not so sure. Using those rights (which may not even be demonstrable) to act as an Intellectual Property cop seems even less likely to carry any weight if challenged. This might especially be true if the company who allegedly licensed those rights to you either no longer exists, never existed or never owned the rights to begin with.
I'll take another approach to this...
It seems that anyone could claim rights and or ownership. In court they would most likely be required to demonstrate that ownership or at least provide a compelling case as to why their claim should be honored.
So for example, you could walk in to the courts and file a petition claiming to own the rights to some technology. Now that may or may not be true, but you could none the less make the claim. You could even posture yourself and take certain actions to further express your claim of ownership such as selling or distributing the technology. Sure another entity could attempt to block your actions, asking the court to intervene with an injunction requesting you to cease and desist. Then you could counter. This stuff gets tied up in the courts for years and you could carry on for a long time doing whatever it is you're doing with the technology.
Sure there is a risk that some judgment will made against you if you loose out in the courts. Quite often you hear of these judgments and in the end the the award is small compared to the profits that were made by the encroaching entity in the years before. Corporations play this game all of the time.
Point is that It costs a lot of money to stave off a claim such as this and I'd be willing to bet that none of the players in the current Amiga arena could keep up a fight for very long. (business isn't exactly booming)
Regards, AmigaEd
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: SysAdmin on August 26, 2010, 05:41:29 PM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;575943
Why do you need it free? Just be abdle to purchase it for say $20 would fine, but you can't do even that.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: SysAdmin on August 27, 2010, 02:18:57 AM
http://www.amigaforever.com/
Then pick Value Edition on upper right corner.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on August 27, 2010, 03:22:32 AM
Quote from: Transition;576426
http://www.amigaforever.com/
Then pick Value Edition on upper right corner.
That's only 1.3 ROM. My $20 offer was for 3.1
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Franko on August 29, 2010, 09:35:45 AM
What a complete load of utter bullS&^t is being bandied about here, reckon almost everyone owns a TV but do you think it's illegal or immoral that TV manufacturers don't pay the estate of John Logie Baird any money for making the things, no course you don't, or what about your phone does the estate of Alexander Graham Bell receive money from telephone manufacturers, no of course it dosen't.
And before any smartarse tries to jump in with no they didn't invent those, it was such & such who did, well thats a whole other argument.
Even when the patents for these things were still in force those guys never became rich of them, but it didn't stop whole industries sprouting up & producing the things and making sackloads of cash of something that they didn't own or invent, yet I'll bet all you guys taking the moral high ground use the damn things.
The simple fact is any company that still sells amiga rom images and claims the right to be able to do so, would never be able to prove in a court of law that they do. Due to the simple fact that the shoddy way in which all the various company's that have raped the amiga legacy have left so many holes and grey areas as to who actually has the rights to what, that it would never be able to stand up in a court of law.
So stop whining about something that will never be proven one way or the other and let someone who is willing to distribute them for free do so and if your morals are so high then pay a company that has no legal right to charge you for them if you wish, its your choice, just don't try and force it on everyone else.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Tension on August 29, 2010, 02:06:29 PM
Look, if anybody wants to download Kickstart ROMS / Workbench (up to 3.1), then go right ahead. Nobody is going to put you in jail. Simple as that. I doubt CBM would give a shit.
3.5/3.9/4.0/4.1 is a different matter though - at least you can still buy them from the people who made them.
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: orb85750 on August 29, 2010, 07:18:26 PM
Please don't continue posting on this thread if you don't understand the difference between a patent and a copyright. (LOL)
Title: Re: Legal issue of Kickstart ROMs
Post by: Franko on August 29, 2010, 10:38:12 PM
Quote from: Tension;576694
Look, if anybody wants to download Kickstart ROMS / Workbench (up to 3.1), then go right ahead. Nobody is going to put you in jail. Simple as that. I doubt CBM would give a shit.
3.5/3.9/4.0/4.1 is a different matter though - at least you can still buy them from the people who made them.
Tensions post sums up the whole subject best, :)
Quote
Please don't continue posting on this thread if you don't understand the difference between a patent and a copyright. (LOL)
@Orb8570 I do know the difference between a patent & a copyright, I just went of on a bit of a rant their at the so called moral majority and their holier than thou views that piss me off... :)