Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: asian1 on November 29, 2003, 02:09:51 PM
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Hi,
There is a strange, new developer website:
AmigaDE (http://amigade.pegasosppc.com)
AFAIK Genesi/Pegasos PPC does not have any
license for Intent/Intent2 VP from TAO.
Even if they won the case and got the AmigaDE,
can they run AmigaDE without Intent/Intent2?
If Genesi lost the case, will they remove/disable
the website?
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As far as i know, they havnt got it yet, but they seem confident about the court case :) Either way, i dont think its illegal to set up a site such as the one mentioned, not that you where saying it way, just that i know thats wat some people will think... At least, i dont think its illegal, doesnt seem to be...
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Ah well.. this looks like hvng ingrediances to a potential flame war..
Anyhow.. I only want to say one thing.. Pegasos is PPC machine just like AmigaOne. I really wish people start to think it as a most sureproof way to ensure AmigaDE appearing to AmigaOnes in coming years. In the end, DE is supposed to be integrated key part of Future AmigaOS. This merge of OS4 and DE has been long announced but no real work has been done on implementation.
Some people have been saying it's technically impossible to port DE to Pegasos/MorphOS, and at the same time these same people keep forgetting it's won't be much different to Aone/OS4 target. So.. Is it impossible or not?
I can understand that people don't want to see AmigaDE been 'tainted' by running it on another platform.. but in the end.. Is Pegasos so much worse target than some Pda:s running windowse OS in them?
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Actually, the site is for ANY PowerPC platform support. Did anyone notice that?
:-)
R&B
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Whats so good about DE? From all the hype and the posts in the DE forums when they were live a few yrs ago nothing ever happened.
IIRC the only software made in the end was a little games pack available on a smart card.
is it supposed to be the case of stand back XP amigaDE is here? what benefits would merging amigaDE and OS4 have? please enlighten me as I am pretty ignorant and after being shown amigaDE all those years ago I could smell that nothing would happen so I didnt bother looking again.
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Thats a good point bbrv :) Hope it goes well for yall :)
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I think the timing is nothing more than another petty point-scoring exercise. Nothing at all can be done until the case is over, and even in the event of Genesi winning it, that does not accord them the rights to TAO's IP regardless of what their contract with Amiga Inc says.
Until otherwise confirmed by TAO, I'd regard everything about AmigaDE on Pegasos or any other PPC platform as pure fantasy.
It's just a publicity stunt folks.
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bhoggett wrote:
I think the timing is nothing more than another petty point-scoring exercise. Nothing at all can be done until the case is over, and even in the event of Genesi winning it, that does not accord them the rights to TAO's IP regardless of what their contract with Amiga Inc says.
What makes you think their trying to take over TAO's IP, or even use it? I dont see any reference to tao on that site. All their doing is providing a gateway for AmigaDE developers... nothing wrong with that, i could set up a similar site!
It's just a publicity stunt folks.
Hrmm, maybe... But probably not :) You think if they win, they'll just tear down the site and pretend it never existed? I doubt it, Genesi have shown their support to developers of open source systems and applciation programmers for morphos... I see just another effort by genesi to support people wishing to develop AmigaDE apps, with a focus towards PPC computers...
It looks a bit shifty because as far as we know, nothing has been decided in the courts and its not confirmed (or at least we know nothing of it) that the AmigaDE will be ported to PPC or indeed Morphos. However, if there ever is an LinuxPPC version, Genesi can take advantage of that and provide a developer community for it. Anyway, Maybe bbrv has some information they're not ready to release? Who knows...
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I can understand that people don't want to see AmigaDE been 'tainted' by running it on another platform.. but in the end.. Is Pegasos so much worse target than some Pda:s running windowse OS in them?
it should be on as many platforms as possible that is what i thought was meant to be the idea of it .Being honest i cant see much use of this to pegasos or amigaone users due to thew fact there is nothing that great to run on it.I dont see any reason why it should not be ported to morpos. :-)
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Well, perception is reality. Here is the reality: there is nothing unless there are people to do it. There are now 13 registered users. Can it be something? Sure. Why not?! :-)
This Developer sites are like the others.
We put them up. We hire someone from the registered users to maintain and moderate it. We see what happens.
Francis Charig is a business man. If there is an opportunity to profit from a relationship he will. Half of the DE license fee to be paid goes to Tao anyway.
R&B :-)
P.S. Cannot resist...Bill, can you feel the metaMorphOSis? :lol:
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@Rodney
AmigaDE does not exist as stand-alone IP. Invariably, it contains TAO's intent, and so any porting has to be done by those who have a license from TAO to do so.
If Genesi win, they claim that they can force Amiga Inc to hand over the source code so that Genesi can do the port themselves. However, unless they obtain separate licensing from TAO, this is BS. No contract between Amiga Inc and Genesi can be binding on TAO, unless there is a special clause in TAO's contract with Amiga Inc (which I doubt Genesi would have been given access to).
As for the gateway theory, bear in mind that there is no licensed port of intent for any PPC solution at the moment. Therefore, this gateway is there to provide what precisely? Support for something that doesn't exist?
As for AmigaDE development, you forget that no one has access to the up-to-date kits without signing both NDAs and SDAs with Amiga Inc. I'd think those agreements preclude putting any relevant or genuinely helpful information on a public website.
Surely, you should be able to recognise another episode of Peg-Pong when you see it.
(Not to mention that AmigaDE is a dead duck and utterly useless on any desktop system)
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Of course, all that changes in with a favorable ruling... :-o
P.S. Surely, you should be able to recognise another post of Mr. Peg-Pong-Pooper when you see it. ;-)
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@bbrv
Well, perception is reality. Here is the reality: there is nothing unless there are people to do it. There are now 13 registered users. Can it be something? Sure. Why not?! :-)
AmigaDE had 3000 registered developers at one point, according to statistics (allegedly). AW.net is supposed to have well over 1000 active members, according to statistics.
'nuff said.
This Developer sites are like the others.
We put them up. We hire someone from the registered users to maintain and moderate it. We see what happens.
Hence the fishing expedition, or the reference to Peg-Pong.
Francis Charig is a business man. If there is an opportunity to profit from a relationship he will. Half of the DE license fee to be paid goes to Tao anyway.
But there is no deal between you and them, and no guarantee that there will ever be one. License fees notwithstanding, there are responsibilities for both parties in such an agreement. What's to say that your vision fits in with TAO's plans?
P.S. Cannot resist...Bill, can you feel the metaMorphOSis? :lol:
Well, I can only suggest that you reserve that kind of word play for those who are amused by it. I prefer something called wit with my humorous repartees. Look it up in a dictionary sometime. ;-)
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@bbrv
Of course, all that changes in with a favorable ruling..
Actually, it doesn't change anything. A favourable ruling is binding on Amiga Inc, not on TAO. All it will mean is that Amiga Inc will have been found to owe you something they cannot legally deliver.
A bad situation for Amiga Inc (if it could get any worse) but not one that will make any difference in Real Life (tm) unless you strike a separate licensing deal with TAO - which you do not have at this time.
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BBRV,
Is there any way that Genesi and Amiga Inc. can settle this matter peacefully? This sort of thing only seems to hurt the Amiga community in the end and only strengthens Microsoft's dominance by the fragmentation of other computing platforms by internal problems/feuds.
It would be great to see the 2 companies form an alliance and keep with their strategies while building a solid foundation for the Amiga Developer community. The idea of having 2 Amiga platforms out there is actually a good thing (I came to realize that now) which will help push innovation for the Amiga platform drastically. Also with 2 companies pushing for the platform should help build a strong developer base for Amiga apps.
Can't we all just get along :-?
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@AmigaMac
Is there any way that Genesi and Amiga Inc. can settle this matter peacefully?
Of course there is, but you'd have to persuade Amiga Inc out of their entrenched position first. Good luck in that attempt, because you'll need it.
It would be great to see the 2 companies form an alliance and keep with their strategies while building a solid foundation for the Amiga Developer community. The idea of having 2 Amiga platforms out there is actually a good thing (I came to realize that now) which will help push innovation for the Amiga platform drastically. Also with 2 companies pushing for the platform should help build a strong developer base for Amiga apps.
Can't we all just get along :-?
You'd be surprised what a whiff of power does to people. Amiga Inc think they ought to make the rules because they paid for the brand, (and, as they see it, the priviledge of being in chrage that they believe goes with it) while Genesi feel that they hold all the current aces and have no need to compromise.
Getting people to co-operate when they're ruled by ego, pride or delusions of grandeur is a surprisingly difficult thing to do. Many would rather go down in flames first.
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to stop this from becoming a new flame-war as predicted let me just ask this one most important question:
does everyone like my new avatar?
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no i dont, it scares me ;-)
/me goes off to get his safety blanky.
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and my minging back didnt scare you? i know the devil pict arroused more people than it scared.
i had a masque on there for a moment, but it was too glittery and fancy to have as a masculine mans avatar. too fruity for my liking.
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If the AmigaDE didn't have the name "Amiga" in it, that piece of sh!t known as Bill Buck wouldn't have anything to do with it.
Actually, the site is for ANY PowerPC platform support. Did anyone notice that?
I'll tell ya what I noticed; The first word you see on there is "Amiga", which is trademarked and not by you, nor do you have a license for it.
Edit by Kees - Personal attack
- Mike
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@ Glaucus
Lets keep it clean .. shall we
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Isn't it nice to see everyone acting like adults for a change? :-(
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Sometimes I feel like I'm running a DayCare.
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this is just riddiculous....another lame attempt.
i wonder what had happend if someone did this to MOS or whatever..
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@lempkee
what happened if someone did what to MOS?
@glaucus
wow, that was just wierd... was like walking into an argument between a fat new yorker and his wife.
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mantisspider wrote:
and my minging back didnt scare you?
I was quite scared by that. I like the new avatar, you should see if you can make it an anim-gif and have the eyes move. Creepy! But cool, if you could do it with the filesize restrictions.
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cheers bro,
i actually stole the original pic from my brother and drew the beard and changed the hair to make it look like me :-D tehehehehe
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Of course there is, but you'd have to persuade Amiga Inc out of their entrenched position first. Good luck in that attempt, because you'll need it.
Why single out Amiga Inc with your use of the word "entrenched"?
You know it's funny, when the MOS guys bash Amiga Inc, the AmigaDE is usually one of the first things used against Amiga Inc. Personally, I don't care one way or the other about Amiga DE, but I do find it strange that the MOS team seems so desperate to have the AmigaDE, especially considering how most MOS fans have nothing but contempt for it.
Also, this website about generic PPC systems, as bbrv would like you believe, highlights the AmigaDE - which as far as I am aware of DOES NOT EXIST FOR THE PPC. In fact, it has only been marketted for the x86 market.
If you don't like Amiga Inc, fine, I can accept that. No problem there. But what I don't understand is why the MOS fanatics seem to take no issues with the very questionable tactics used by the MOS team to rip apart and hurt the other side of the Amiga equation. It's both pathetic and stupid. I will not apologize and perhaps a flame war is in order!
- Mike
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Some people have been saying it's technically impossible to port DE to Pegasos/MorphOS, and at the same time these same people keep forgetting it's won't be much different to Aone/OS4 target. So.. Is it impossible or not?
i have to say i agree there.. the systems are not all that different...
Though i really have hard to see why genesis want this... it was a total failure.. seems like they only do this to harm amigainc.. That is what I believe atleast
People bashed amigainc for the idea of AmigaDE, but still they want it? makes no sense
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what about applogising for simply being rude,
the biggest doors open to smallest keys, yes thank you and if you please.
oh and ur avatar looks like what eddie the eagle edwards is up to, so that cant be all that bad.
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i totally agree with Glaucus..
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@Glaucus
Might I suggest you read a thread fully before jumping in feet first?
The "entrenched position" refers to Amiga Inc's stance over AmigaDE. As long as their position is "no deal" then no negotiations or compromises are possible.
The rest of your post simply repeats what I've already said, and then goes on to apparently class me as a MOS fanatic. It amazes me that people like you seem outraged by Genesi's tactics, but had no complaints to make when Fleecy threatened legal action left, right and center and Ben Hermans made all sorts of allegations about illegal code, when neither was prepared to put up any evidence to back their claims. Why are Genesi dirty tricks so terrible and Amiga Inc ones go without comment or even get vociferous backing by certain people?
Too many people with double standards are under the delusion that they have the moral high ground.
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Tomas wrote:
People bashed amigainc for the idea of AmigaDE, but still they want it? makes no sense
I suppose it's just oneupmanship. I don't see myself investing in either of the two main PPC solutions, the way things are. People's attitudes in this community stink.
Edit: Some people. Others are doing positive things, like the AROS team, for example.
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The rest of your post simply repeats what I've already said, and then goes on to apparently class me as a MOS fanatic.
Okay, for that I'm sorry as I do respect you, and I was not trying to imply that you are a fanatic of any kind. In fact, the only part directed at you was the entrenched part. And what I meant by that is, sure Amiga Inc is adamantly refusing to give out AmigaDE to it's number one competitor. But at the same time, the MOS team is equally entrenched in their fight to get the DE - a technology that is more or less dead and has always been bashed by the MOS fanatics - from Amiga Inc. In other words, they are both equally locked in their own private struggle, there's no need to make it seem like the MOS team is somehow more reasonable on this particular issue.
- Mike
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(http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/prank/moon.gif)
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@Elektro
That's so funny! I cannot stop laughing. :-)
Coder
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AmigaDE is a dead end project which offers nothing to anyone so why Bill are you after that piece of sh!t?
I could understand if it was a ploy to get those criminals at Amiga Inc to go bankrupt which would be great but if you seriously want that POS AmigaDE you must have more money than sense or have good plans for it.
Explain.
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DE is still not going anywhere. It sounds all very nice but it is still mostly talk then actually showing something. What's different about it now then 1 year ago? Yeah, 1 year has passed, haha. I guess we have to wait and see what will come out of it.
Coder
Don't talk but do something (geen woorden maar daden, right Kees? ;-) )
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@Elektro
:roflmao:
Elektro, I don't remember which "side" you are on in this silly war, but that is the best response I've seen yet.
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redfox
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@Glaucus
Who is and who is not in the right regarding DE will eventually be decided by the court. There is a contract involved, after all, and if the court decides that contract is breached, then Genesi are perfectly entitled to enforce it, whatever their ulterior motives may be.
The reason I'm singling out Amiga Inc on the issue is because so far they are the ones who have made it plain they will not negotiate. I haven't heard anything to suggest Genesi would not accept an out-of-court settlement if Amiga Inc were prepared to consider a compromise.
You seem to saying that Genesi are inflexible for not dropping the matter altogether. I would respectfully suggest that is not how compromises work. For one side to give up something, the other side must do so too.
I suspect we can all speculate about Genesi's real motives for pursuing the matter, but I submit those are irrelevant. Given the opportunity does anyone have any doubt Amiga Inc would try to damage Genesi if the tables were turned?
(I should add that I would very much like to see the court decide on the matter on the merits of the evidence presented, and not as a result of a default situation. A default judgement would only leave the impression that the result was obtained by manipulation of the justice system, rather than a manifestation of justice itself. At the same time interminable delays are intolerable and cannot be allowed to continue. A final resolution is desperately needed)
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@Coder
re: AmigaDE
What's different about it now then 1 year ago?
The difference between now and one year ago is the same as the difference between now and two years ago, and not a significant improvement over that from three years ago.
I seriously doubt the addition of AmigaDE capabilities would add anything of value to any OS, be it AmigaOS4 or MorphOS.
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Glaucus wrote:
Also, this website about generic PPC systems, as bbrv would like you believe, highlights the AmigaDE - which as far as I am aware of DOES NOT EXIST FOR THE PPC. In fact, it has only been marketted for the x86 market.
AmigaDE for PPC depends on intent for PPC, doesn't it? And according to the intent 2 whitepaper, intent RTOS does support PowerPC. So it shouldn't be much of a trick to implement AmigaDE on PPC, if somebody sees a good reason to do it.
I'm not altogether sure what the motive was to set up a Genesi AmigaDE-for-PPC web site at this time; I imagine a combination of things. But the reason AmigaDE hasn't gone anywhere for several years is, I think, mainly Amiga, Inc. There is still a market for some kind of common API on mobile devices. I just got a Java-capable cell phone and was checking out what was available for it. I was surprised to find that Java games, etc. have to be 'ported' explicitly to each kind of device due to screen resolution differences, etc. I'm a newbie in mobile devices but if this is true, then there seems to be potential for something like intent, and maybe AmigaDE if it really does extend intent in a way that matters. Maybe it makes sense to consider an "AmigaDE" kind of thing apart from the context of the failing IP holder.
-- gary_c
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@ Gary_C,
You took the words right out of my mouth!
I see a LOT of people here blasting about how crap DE is (It's not even here) whereas I think the theory of it is fantastic.
I'm not happy to see all this flamin going on again, but then it has been a while.
I notice bbrv has disappeared after the first page. Congratulations, you have suceeded!
What's the matter? OS4 getting too close & have to try messing with peoples mind? Pff, I'm off to see how it's looking tomorrow at the Micro Mart thing at the NEC so knackers to your games!
Seriously though. IF it's real, just f*****g do it. If people like it, they'll but it won't they?
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Hi lempkee ;-)
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i wonder what had happend if someone did this to MOS or whatever..
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Mos ?, you are talking about MorphOS, aren't you ?
Well, I believe noone should have anything against that, at least not Genesi... as more sites and as more who talks about MorphOS as better you know ;-)
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Hi Glaucus ;-)
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Why single out Amiga Inc.... etc...
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Well, isn't that good you think... more sites given notice to and about Amiga & then also AmigaDE.... ;-)
I don't know where you got this with entrenched from... ?
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Im still dumbfounded by all of this speculation, wake up people! buck obviously reads these forums and this thread in particular so ask him directly what the motives are.
So then, Bill Buck, what are you motives for wanting to have the amiga de as part of the mos platform. Please do not be vague in your response. I can only think of the following reasons:
1) like the de idea and believe it would add value to mos
2) want to send a-inc bankrupt
3) just a way to "amiga" name on your product
4) not willing to lose face in public via a backdown or compromise
any others people can think of?
ps, i would expect you would be courteous enough to answer this question (i know your reading it) and if not will assume the answer to one one or more of 2, 3 or 4
pps, can you sign your response with whoever is typing it, either bb *or* rv as i want to directly know who im talking to, not who your speaking on behalf of becuase you want to be ambiguous.
ppps, on the off-topic of avatars, i might be changing mine soon as well, more news to come :-)...
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Hi teotwin !
1) like the de idea and believe it would add value to mos
Everything does, don't you think ?
2) want to send a-inc bankrupt
Why ?
3) just a way to "amiga" name on your product
Is there anything wrong with the Amiga name ?
4) not willing to lose face in public via a backdown or compromise
????
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GGS
[edit] after re-read the following may sound like a persoanl attack, please dont take it as such, im mearly trying to emphasise that im trying to avoid speculation and opinions for my above question[/edit]
??? are you bb under another name ??? (thats not sarcasm, its a real question) i will assume not until corrected. Therefore i'd appreciate you not answering on behalf of someone else as the SOLE PURPOSE of my questions were for BB to answer and to stop the speculation (as you are doing), but in response:
1) actually i dont like the idea (in respect to amiga os) of de much myself. Good idea by itself but not in my personal vision of what i would like my ideal amiga to include.
2) why send a-inc bankrupt? commercial advantage of course, its obvious. Plus its also obvious they dont like each other so revenge or spite perhaps.
3) again another commercial advantage, the name *amiga* is a well known name and has huge advertising potential, and as such is a good reason to be able to use it on products.
4) what i mean is that this fight has been dragged into the public domain and anyone backing down may be seen as loosing face, which would be a motive to continue the fight to win/lose (persoanlly id respect a backdown much more, and yes, from either side)
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Who is and who is not in the right regarding DE will eventually be decided by the court.
Correct, and if the courts decide in favour of Genesi then they would at least have a legal right to make reference to the AmigaDE on their website, however, as far as I know the court case is still on-going.
The reason I'm singling out Amiga Inc on the issue is because so far they are the ones who have made it plain they will not negotiate.
It is also in Amiga Inc's right to not negotiate and let the courts settle it. If I were in their shoes I'd probably do the same, especially if they feel they have a strong case. Unfortunately it seems they can't afford counsil which may sink their ship, but that's a different matter. And who's to say what's going on behind closed doors? Negotiations may very well be going on, there's no reason to trust anyone involved as to what's really going on in private. Personally, I don't trust Bill Buck's public statements regarding such business dealings.
You seem to saying that Genesi are inflexible for not dropping the matter altogether.
Well, yes in a way I am because what I really am doing is questioning Genesi's motives. Why go to the trouble of aquiring a technology that both you and I, and many others, consider a useless technology (at least on the desktop market, the mobil market may still prove to be viable)? Even if AmigaDE becomes viable, there's little reason for it to be bundled with the OS. Hell, even the current version of OS4 isn't slated to have the AmigaDE included in it, why would one expect Amiga Inc to hand it over to the MOS team?!? Really, it makes no sense, which makes me wonder if there are more sinister plots at hand. To make it perfectly clear, I am accusing the MOS team of deliberatly trying to hurt Amiga Inc, while at the same time trying to get the legal rights to the AmigaDE simply for the name's sake. Remember, in my first (or was it second?) post I said that Bill Buck only cares about the AmigaDE because it has the "Amiga" name in it. I think that sums it up pretty well. So, back to your original statement... What's to negotiate when what Genesi REALLY wants is the "Amiga" name and Amiga Inc could not possibly have any benefit from sharing it's one and only trump card with their main competitor! It makes no sense for Amiga to negotiate - it's do or die for them and without in betweens. Does that make sense?
- Mike
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#
??? are you bb under another name ???
No
And thank you for noticing about no personal attack !
1) actually i dont like the idea (in respect to amiga os) of de much myself. Good idea by itself but not in my personal vision of what i would like my ideal amiga to include.
Ok
2) why send a-inc bankrupt? commercial advantage of course, its obvious. Plus its also obvious they dont like each other so revenge or spite perhaps.
I cant se any commercial advantage in a-inc going bankrupt.
About if people like each other or not, I would like to say its up to each one self to tell and also who they dont like in that case.
3) again another commercial advantage, the name *amiga* is a well known name and has huge advertising potential, and as such is a good reason to be able to use it on products.
If you see it that way, I also do understand that you feel its a commercial advantage.
4) what i mean is that this fight has been dragged into the public domain and anyone backing down may be seen as loosing face, which would be a motive to continue the fight to win/lose (persoanlly id respect a backdown much more, and yes, from either side)
I dont get that, and would like to say its up to you who you want to see it. But would also like to say, thumb up for that you wrote that you respect a backdown from anyone.
Anyway a contract is usually signed between two parts :-), and also normally the aim with a contract is that both signing should gain something from the contract, else contracts should be quite useless and not many should sign any contracts at all... or ?
All the best.
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Just to re-enforce my arguments here....
When you go to this new web site, the first thing that pops up at you is the word "AmigaDE", followed directly by the AmigaDE logo which looks a hell of a lot like the AmigaOS logo. In fact, most people out of the loop would probably assume they are only different versions of the same thing - which they are clearly not.
But that's not all. The web site doesn't even mention who built the AmigaDE. That's right, not one mention of AmigaDE's founder, Amiga Inc. In fact, in the About section we have this little gem:
The AmigaDE PPC Community (ADEC) is offered by Genesi as a free service for all developers interested in AmigaDE PPC.
I mean, if I didn't know any better, I would assume Genesi built and designed the AmigaDE. In fact, they don't even mention Intent or Tao, but they DO have a convinient link to the Genesi web site. Generally speaking, a company never offers product support for their competitors! That's like Microsoft creating a developer community for Linux users!
And last but not least, the AmigaDE PPC community that they speak of DOES NOT EXIST!!! If they omitted the PPC part then they could at least argue that they are including the AmigaDE community as a whole, but that is not the case, they specifically support only the non-existant PPC AmigaDE community. I bet there's lots to talk about there!!!
So please forgive me for coming to the conclusion that something sinister is at play here.
- Mike
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It looks that bbrv is happy to help any developer effort that would run on the Pegasos.
If he can help the developers to get somewhere and thanks to that sell a few more Pegasos everyone wins.
I'm sure that the fact that the site was set up was to see if there is enough interest to build something. Even if it is not sure it is stil an opportunity to try to do something.
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Hi Glaucus
My last post in this thread...
And just some points.
If you have thoughts about the website, you could;
1; Bring forward to them who created the website your thoughts.
2; Bring forward to anyone behind or involved in AmigaDE your thoughts.
About this with PPC. Maybe its depends on that Genesi is working with creating a PPC-solution ?
Also finally, if you have thoughts about contracts or anything about the courtcase, you could also forward your thoughts to respectively.
About sinister play I have no idea..., sorry.
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For F@#k sake every body. Its just a web site! I dont understand what you'r all worried about!
also i think it was Gary C that said it... I also thought that intent ran on PPC. I was told this about a year ago i think by someone at Amiga Inc... maybe fleecy? Cant remember.
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Tomas wrote:
Some people have been saying it's technically impossible to port DE to Pegasos/MorphOS, and at the same time these same people keep forgetting it's won't be much different to Aone/OS4 target. So.. Is it impossible or not?
i have to say i agree there.. the systems are not all that different...
Though i really have hard to see why genesis want this... it was a total failure.. seems like they only do this to harm amigainc.. That is what I believe atleast
People bashed amigainc for the idea of AmigaDE, but still they want it? makes no sense
Dont they want it so that they can call their computers Amiga's? I think thats their primary reasoning behind it. Which is just business... Again, you might all care because it'll take the focus off the real AmigaOS, but boo hoo :)
btw - even if morphos was totaly different to AmigaOS, does that mean it would be impossible to port? I find these questions "can we port this product to this platform" confusing... You can port anything to anything. Its just another program running on another platofrom :)
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by Glaucus on 2003/11/29 21:32:13
Correct, and if the courts decide in favour of Genesi then they would at least have a legal right to make reference to the AmigaDE on their website, however, as far as I know the court case is still on-going.
Your forgetting about the contract issue which is why there is court action. Genesi has a contract with Amiga Inc for rights to logos and such for (then) existing hardware and future hardware (that's where Peg comes in) within reasonable limits which Amiga Inc agreed to not be able to dismiss any product out of hand without a legit reason. If Amiga Inc wins, they will probably request to the courts that Genesi remove said links and logos. Until then, Genesi has reasonable expectations of using the contract terms as they see fit.
It is also in Amiga Inc's right to not negotiate and let the courts settle it. If I were in their shoes I'd probably do the same, especially if they feel they have a strong case. Unfortunately it seems they can't afford counsil which may sink their ship, but that's a different matter. And who's to say what's going on behind closed doors? Negotiations may very well be going on, there's no reason to trust anyone involved as to what's really going on in private. Personally, I don't trust Bill Buck's public statements regarding such business dealings.
Amiga Inc is being extremely stupid not to deal with Genesi. Even that $250K Genesi offered besides the monies for porting, to keep Amiga Inc afloat shows there is no reasonable business practice left, it's all petty actions of Amiga Inc's executives. Amiga Inc is more then willing to steal $65K from the Amiga Kommunity, but it won't touch Genesi's $250K? What type of nut jobs are running the show? A cash strapped company that is in dire economic straights turns down a paying customer with up front money? Hello, is anyone in there?
What's to negotiate when what Genesi REALLY wants is the "Amiga" name and Amiga Inc could not possibly have any benefit from sharing it's one and only trump card with their main competitor! It makes no sense for Amiga to negotiate - it's do or die for them and without in betweens. Does that make sense?
None what so ever. Competitor is M$ and Amiga Inc is being a little whore with Gates. Next competitor would be Linux community. Way down the F'ing road is Genesi, a mear grain of sand compared to Amiga Inc's real competitors. Hell, TAO group is more of a competitor to Amiga Inc the Genesi is, and TAO group owns the core IP to DE.
Dammy
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I seriously doubt the addition of AmigaDE capabilities would add anything of value to any OS, be it AmigaOS4 or MorphOS.
I don't see any benefit to anybody since DE has not really been demonstrated. Most people are at a loss as to what DE really is and is supposed to do. Being dead quiet for nearly four years after "buying" the Amiga name tends to do that. Personally, I feel Amiga has been dead for two years and won't release anything. If that's not true, they sure haven't been trying hard to convince us otherwise.
Why use DE and Ami2D when you can use PTL natively on practically any OS?
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Waccoon wrote:
I don't see any benefit to anybody since DE has not really been demonstrated. Most people are at a loss as to what DE really is and is supposed to do. Being dead quiet for nearly four years after "buying" the Amiga name tends to do that. Personally, I feel Amiga has been dead for two years and won't release anything. If that's not true, they sure haven't been trying hard to convince us otherwise.
Why use DE and Ami2D when you can use PTL natively on practically any OS?
Well its not big atm, but remember Amiga Incs long term plan is to get AmigaOS running through the DE, which is a grand idea. Much like the .net strategy without all the webservices crap.
Thats a long way off and by the looks of things at Amiga Inc, it may not ever get to that stage so theres no real point in duscussing it. Genesi basically want the DE so they can get some of the Amiga's naming rights... That is, it would be cool to call the pegasos an Amiga :) That may seem like robery to some, but its just business.
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I don't see i this site any mention of a trademark of Amiga Inc.
If Genesi can use legally this product, he must tell about the real proprietary of a trademark
I hope for the Amiga future, a better Company....
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We appreciate all the comments on this thread, the good and the bad. We do these kinds of things to understand the market better. In some posts good ideas are presented, in others we understand opinions and bias we would not otherwise encounter and last but not least we understand the depth of the ignorance so often associated with the understanding of a controversial situation such as this.
The bottom line is we do not know if AmigaDE is worth the license fee that we will pay to integrate it into a product offering we make. Perhaps, with Tao involved it might be. We will see. For the record, the Amiga Trademarks are not important to us. The Development and User Community and the hundreds applications still useful are. These are not owned by Amiga Inc. Finally, the lawsuit's damages are capped at -ZERO- in the situation as it exists today. This will not be the reason Amiga Inc. go into bankruptcy. They are not paying lawyers, so they have no expense on the account of this matter and even less if a Judgment is granted. The result? Amiga Inc. begins to generate revenue from Genesi IF we do something with it. And, that, will depend on the Developers out there that are interested.
R&B :-)
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The bottom line is we do not know if AmigaDE is worth the license fee that we will pay to integrate it into a product offering we make.
Could you port the open sourced MONO (DOTNET) framework instead for MorphOS?
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Hi Hammer, tell us how. That is one of the reasons for having this discussion here to bring out not only the ideas, but the specifics. It is an international brainstorming session that if done successfully can yield enough information to create a Marketing Requirements Document that in turn can be sourced to a technology team and a level of risk vs. reward can be assessed. Will it make business sense? Let's figure it out right here, right now.
R&B :-)
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bbrv wrote:
Hi Hammer, tell us how. That is one of the reasons for having this discussion here to bring out not only the ideas, but the specifics. It is an international brainstorming session that if done successfully can yield enough information to create a Marketing Requirements Document that in turn can be sourced to a technology team and a level of risk vs. reward can be assessed. Will it make business sense? Let's figure it out right here, right now.
R&B :-)
By leveraging dotNET(via open source MONO) ecosystem; MorphOS can assimilate the future (and/or current) dotNET developments, applications and games.
PS; MONO is supported by Novell…
Reference;
http://www.go-mono.com/screenshots.html
http://www.go-mono.com/faq.html#compatibility
http://www.vertigosoftware.com/Quake2.htm
http://www.ikvm.net/
**JAVA VM for dotNET. This in turn runs IBM's Open Source IDE i.e. Eclipse.
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[...] and the hundreds applications still useful are. These are not owned by Amiga Inc.
No, but Amiga Inc. has first distribution-right because of the signed SDA's. Bundling those usefull apps would still require you to go through Amiga Inc, although all AmigaDE users should be able to download most games/apps by then.
Personally, being a DE-Developer myself, I'd love to see the platform running on as many systems as possible.
And I think Amiga Inc. thinks that way as well. It's just a matter of priorities. I also think they're targetting the biggest markets first and they have to focus all their resources on getting into these markets. Millions of cell-phones/PDA's still looks like a bigger market to them than a couple of thousands of Pegs I'd say.
Regards,
Onno
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Rodney wrote:
Waccoon wrote:
I don't see any benefit to anybody since DE has not really been demonstrated. Most people are at a loss as to what DE really is and is supposed to do. Being dead quiet for nearly four years after "buying" the Amiga name tends to do that. Personally, I feel Amiga has been dead for two years and won't release anything. If that's not true, they sure haven't been trying hard to convince us otherwise.
Why use DE and Ami2D when you can use PTL natively on practically any OS?
Well its not big atm, but remember Amiga Incs long term plan is to get AmigaOS running through the DE, which is a grand idea. Much like the .net strategy without all the webservices crap.
That web services crap is for MIS (Managed Information Systems) i.e. related to eBusiness based solutions. Secondly, dotNET framework compatible MONO is open sourced.
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With all the problems Amiga Inc are facing (okay being on the brink of dying lots of times before but they are still here) with all the debts, lawsuits by employees and problems they bring on themselves and problems that are thrust apon them without fault of their own... just how long will they be around.
It seems that even with the sales of the AmigaOne it may be too late to save Amiga Inc (although Hyperion and Eyetech will carry on regardless with the AmigaOne no matter what happens to AmigaInc) the important discussions should be with TAO.
Amiga Inc & Genesi will have their discussions resolved in due time from the case in progress. No real point writing post after post about whether Genesi have a right to DE or not, as its not a matter of our opinion but rather to the correct authorities to decide.
<. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .>
What we should talk about is what applications should be developed for AmigaDE.
This thread from Page 3 onwards is actually quite good discussing the potential of AmigaDE and people opinions on AmigaDE rather than another AmigaInc Vs Genesi flame war.
i would say for a moderator to move page 1 and 2 somewhere else but Glaucus will start to swear again (is that eddie the eagle edwards driving a taxi in the avatar? I swear it is)
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Hammer wrote:
That web services crap is for MIS (Managed Information Systems) i.e. related to eBusiness based solutions. Secondly, dotNET framework compatible MONO is open sourced.
Ahhh, yer i know mono is open source, did i even say it wasnt? And doesnt .Net facilitate the development of webservices? That is, .NEt helps you build XML Web services, right?
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@Rodney
also i think it was Gary C that said it... I also thought that intent ran on PPC. I was told this about a year ago i think by someone at Amiga Inc... maybe fleecy? Cant remember.
intent can run on PPC, but there is no licensed version for PPC at this time. In other words, it's merely theoretical from a developer's point of view.
Well its not big atm, but remember Amiga Incs long term plan is to get AmigaOS running through the DE, which is a grand idea. Much like the .net strategy without all the webservices crap.
No, that was the idea, before it became clear that intent does not have the infrastructure to host a full desktop OS. Amiga Inc formulated their plans without doing their homework, which was to set the tone for their tenure of mismanagement.
Hosting desktop operating systems was never TAO's priority, and still isn't. You're not going to see a future AmigaOS built on top of intent in your lifetime.
Furthermore, the "AmigaDE" component is virtually insignificant, and offers nothing that alternative solutions don't offer. What was exciting three years ago is no longer unique.
The most valuable part of AmigaDE is the "Amiga" brand.
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Hi Hammer, OK good thinking! But, are you absolutely sure that MONO can tie into all of this? That is an XSLENT idea! :-D
We have been on the Eclipse mailing list for two years and are waiting for the final build.
The XML route is certainly interesting.
R&B :-)
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Oh dear, looks like another hopeless attempt by Genesi to undermine Amiga Incs work and flog a couple of Pegasos boards.
The website is in clear copyright/IP breach, contains no mention of the people who actually made the product and is highly misleading/suggests AmigaDE is a Genesi product.
:-x
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@Hammer
The bottom line is we do not know if AmigaDE is worth the license fee that we will pay to integrate it into a product offering we make.
Could you port the open sourced MONO (DOTNET) framework instead for MorphOS?
Indeed, looking to adopt MONO would be a far more adventurous move. The only drawback I see with MONO is that it is basically an open-source "copy" of .NET, which mean the direction is dictated by Microsoft.
However .NET (and by implication MONO) is a far more mature and encompassing technology than that employed in AmigaDE.
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@cockney_dave
Oh dear, looks like another hopeless attempt by Genesi to undermine Amiga Incs work...
What work?
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@bhoggett
The difference between now and one year ago is the same as the difference between now and two years ago, and not a significant improvement over that from three years ago.
True, very true. If it would have taken of it certainly would have to be by now. I signed up on the Genesi site just to keep track of what is going on. I invested some money in the DE thing and maybe it would return something.
Coder
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OK, another good point by Bill H...
Found this OLD DISCUSSION ABOUT DE (http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=459&limit=no). There are a few interesting comments there.
The point is why couldn't MONO head off in its own direction. BTW, did you notice that the contact information goes to a ximian email address! :-o
...and consequently Novell (and IBM) are involved. PowerPC is to be fully supported. It is partially today.
This could be interesting...;-)
R&B :-)
P.S. This is not a shameless attempt! We want to pay a license fee under a contract signed and agreed to by Amiga Inc.! The issue is we do not agree on the terms of the contract and now the Court will decide. It seems to us that if we make this step then some of the objections HERE (http://www.amiga.org/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=11) might be met and this might all tie together in a nice neat package...;-)
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by mantisspider on 2003/11/30 7:33:27
It seems that even with the sales of the AmigaOne it may be too late to save Amiga Inc (although Hyperion and Eyetech will carry on regardless with the AmigaOne no matter what happens to AmigaInc) the important discussions should be with TAO.
No, that's not correct. Once Amiga Inc goes into bankruptsy, Hyperion/Eyetech will have to make a new seperate bid for the Amiga trademark to continue to hock the teron mobos as AmigaOne. If someone out bids them, they can no longer use Amiga Inc logo or trademarks (if Amiga Inc owns the latter, don't think it's been cleared up yet by the US Government on trademark ownership). Yes, Hyperion/Eyetech can continue on selling their wares, but would not be able to use anything related to Amiga Inc's old IP.
Dammy
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@ FuZion
I see a LOT of people here blasting about how crap DE is (It's not even here) whereas I think the theory of it is fantastic.
You said it, in theory. After such a time period it should have shown it's power.
Coder
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Hi Coder and FuZion...
Yes, it is all becoming more of an XSLENT (http://www.xslent.net) idea.
Follow the link to know more...;-)
R&B :-)
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If .inc would be close to bancruptcy and the IP and name could be sold off, surely they would sell it to Hyperion/Eyetech just for the heck of it. Assuming the stockholders appprove. Something like Be did to Palm, altough the name got ditched in the process so to speak.
But, if both Amiga and Genesi does not approve of the terms of the contract, why not nullify it, surely that would be possible under US law ?, or is it just mischief on Genesi's side after all ?
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No, that's not correct. Once Amiga Inc goes into bankruptsy, Hyperion/Eyetech will have to make a new seperate bid for the Amiga trademark to continue to hock the teron mobos as AmigaOne.
It is my understanding that Hyperion had it worked into their contract with Amiga Inc that the OS that they are developing will be called AmigaOS regardless of what happens to Amiga Inc. In otherwords, Amiga Inc could go out of business tomorrow, Hyperion's AmigaOS 4 will not need a new name. Not sure about the AmigaOne though.
- Mike
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by Glaucus on 2003/11/30 12:03:50
It is my understanding that Hyperion had it worked into their contract with Amiga Inc that the OS that they are developing will be called AmigaOS regardless of what happens to Amiga Inc. In otherwords, Amiga Inc could go out of business tomorrow, Hyperion's AmigaOS 4 will not need a new name. Not sure about the AmigaOne though.
What Ben didn't realize at the time, that contract is void once the bankruptsy in US court is underway. ALL contracts are voided the moment the US Federal Court gets it's mits on Amiga Inc's assets. With the exception if it's profitable to those who have judgements and to the creditors for an existing contract to continue, it's voided on the spot. The court is there to insure those who are owed judgements and the creditors get the maximum possible amount of monies back. In either case, Hyperion is SOL.
Guess we see why Ben has focused on money making instead of OS4?
Dammy
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@Step
Be isn't bancrupt, they just sold themselves to Palm.
It ain't the shareholders but the creditors who would make such a descicion
after AInc are declared bancrupt. Those will sell to the one offering the most.
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by Step on 2003/11/30 11:58:06
If .inc would be close to bancruptcy and the IP and name could be sold off, surely they would sell it to Hyperion/Eyetech just for the heck of it. Assuming the stockholders appprove.
They wouldn't be allowed to by US Code for bankruptsy. That's sheilding assets. At best, the Judge would just void it and award the IP back to the court appoint administrator for liquidation. At worst, criminal charges/referrals could be sent to US Grand Jury. Atleast then McEwen could get his medicle needs taken care of, free of charge! =)
Dammy
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@Kronos
I did not say Be was bancrupt, neither is Amiga. What i was saying was that if they saw the end nearing, they could sell out to their partners, under certain circumstances of course. As one of the shareholders of Be i should know ;-) still waiting for the final closure so i can get some cash back on my taxes for the losses.
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@bbrv
The point is why couldn't MONO head off in its own direction. BTW, did you notice that the contact information goes to a ximian email address!
It could go in its own direction, but that would be counter-productive unless its adoption starts to rival that of the Microsoft original.
The Ximian connection comes from the fact that they were instrumental in starting the MONO project, long before Novell entered they picture.
...and consequently Novell (and IBM) are involved. PowerPC is to be fully supported. It is partially today.
The idea behind such technologies is to make them hardware agnostic.
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Exactly!
Wasn't that the whole idea?! :-o
R&B :-D
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@Step
Selling an asset at a time when they allready know that they won't make it
is a crime (defrauding their creditors). Be was never in such a position, as
their creditors were served by Palm.
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Hi Step :-)
Well, I said I shouldn't write more, but anyway, something fun can't hurt :-)
#
If .inc would be close to bancruptcy and the IP and name could be sold off, surely they would sell it to Hyperion/Eyetech just for the heck of it. Assuming the stockholders appprove. Something like Be did to Palm, altough the name got ditched in the process so to speak.
---
Why speculating in if a-inc will go bankrupt or no ? Do you think they are ?
#
But, if both Amiga and Genesi does not approve of the terms of the contract, why not nullify it, surely that would be possible under US law ?, or is it just mischief on Genesi's side after all ?
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Who should gain from that ?
Also, when reading the thread here, and what some people writes, I got the impression that some people thinks its bad for the company Amiga Inc having contracts. Why is that ? :-)
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They can't as they have outstanding debts. You cannot avoid bankruptcy like that.
Except if the one that buys your company pays all
the debts. I seriously doubt that Hyperion or Eyetech
would pay almost 2 million dollars.
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@GGS (Hej)
No, i dont think they will go bancrupt, but it looks as if it is a common belief and i was merely hinting at other possible events.
They both should be gaining from it since they dont agree, and it would make atleast one problem go away.
@all
Be was heading for bancruptcy in the long run, as Gasée said, they had a lot more expenses than they had money coming in. A lot of people lost a lot of money when they sold out, during the phone conference before the vote, i think a guy mentioned he had bought something along 50.000 shares and he was NOT happy.
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Hi again !
> No, i dont think they will go bancrupt, but it looks as if it is a common belief and i was merely hinting at other possible events.
Ok. Any more possibilities ?
> They both should be gaining from it since they dont agree, and it would make atleast one problem go away.
So you think the contract is a problem then ?
What is the problem ?
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@GGS
More possibilities ?, they could start getting nice revenues from A1/OS4/DE, find new investors, new partners etc.
I dont know if the contract is a problem, have not seen it. Obviously A problem is that they dont agree.
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by Step on 2003/11/30 15:27:13
More possibilities ?, they could start getting nice revenues from A1/OS4/DE, find new investors, new partners etc.
Unlikely to happen, if it was, it would have happened years ago. Problem now is that everyone and his mother knows how bad off Amiga Inc financially with judgements against (yes, that is public record which is on Amiga Inc's (and McEwen's) credit report) that has to be satisfied first. Would you invest in a company with a failed idea, no offices, has judgements still oustanding, and is currently being sued by a company that has an existing contact with them? Odds are, you would grab your wallet and go screaming out of McDonalds since the would be the only real place to meet with McEwen. The only person stupid enough (sorry, has to be said) to pay any type of money is BBRV, and McEwen knows it yet he rather loose his house to the bank then deal with BBRV.
Selling enough A1s to cover that type of debt? Yeah, right. There still a matter of sCAM to settle with and then there is all those free OS4 via DEad PartyPack owners that has to be satisified. Seeing Elvis step out of a flying saucer is more likely to happen then Amiga Inc surviving. But anything is possible, I guess, just highly unlikely. ;)
Dammy
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GGS:
I've been reading the posts with a grin. You seem to buy the standard bbvr line that Amiga is not competition. That's spin; all companies do it (and you'll find a lot of it on Amiga's site).
However, Genesi sees its userbase coming, for now, from Amiga and ex-Amiga users. There is no doubt that they are trying to get the new version of their OS out before 4.0, that they've been courting Amiga developers, that they complain whenever something is released for Amiga and not Morphos. The effect (and business objective)is to create some similitude .
Bbvr's activly attempts to bankrupt Amiga; I don't think there is any real ambiguity there. Irregardless of some of Amiga's miscalculations with DE(ad), I see those who cheer for another bankruptcy as being rather puerile.
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mantisspider on 2003/11/30 0:41:02
Whats so good about DE? From all the hype and the posts in the DE forums when they were live a few yrs ago nothing ever happened.
IIRC the only software made in the end was a little games pack available on a smart card.
is it supposed to be the case of stand back XP amigaDE is here? what benefits would merging amigaDE and OS4 have? please enlighten me as I am pretty ignorant and after being shown amigaDE all those years ago I could smell that nothing would happen so I didnt bother looking again.
There are a number of things that need to separated out. The Taos engine is just a typical stripped down embeded OS - it has some interesting features but nothing to set the world on fire. It works smoothly even ontop of Windows (leaves the underlying OS in shame to tell the truth).
Its main virtue of course is that it and its apps are compiled to a virtual CPU and translated very smartly to the CPU you are actually running it on (200k translation base). It can also be hosted ontop of another OS or run by itself.
AmigaDE as it presently stands is only a specification for applications compiled for and running on Toas, there are a few specifically Amiga bits involved but nothing to set you on fire. At the moment it is just biased towards the PDA and small things market which Toas small footprint is well suited and its CPU agnosticism suits.
For a while Taos has been dragging its feet in making a CPU translator for the PPC. Apple is not either big enough and Toas has no real role there. So I suggest that the recent interest form Pegasos might owe itself not to anything that Amiga has done, but perhaps because Toas is finally getting the PPC translator working properly - I think the MicroA1 may have been very persuasive as well as sales of the A1 which have recently spiked a little.
It could also be the case that the release of OS4 may have Toas running ontop of it, the timing seems right but no promises have been given that I know about.
For the Amiga community the fact that most of the OS has been rewritten in vanilla C is very important, because then recompiling into Toas for OS5 is relatively easy.
Now when OS5 happens then Toas changes quite radically. Instead of being a bare bones "embedded OS" like all the others, Toas as AmigaDE 5 is now a fully fledged OS with still a small footprint.
Moreover, I strongly suspect, it will be also avialable as a 64bit package and the filesystem will be unrecogniziable.
OK all this is just the jigsaw pieces and how they fit - what are the benefits.
Anything compiled for the Toas engine is portable by nature. Moreover, because it is a software abstraction layer between the OS and the CPU all such software is potentially permanent regardless of future hardware changes. Multi-processing, etc is all inbuilt, etc.
Toas has a number of standard compilers. There is a form of assembler (VP which even I can use), C and C++. Most interesting is SHEEP the future replacement of AREXX which interfaces to AREXX ports (and other scripting ports) seems as simple to use as AREXX and can be compiled into VP code and compiled as tools (without I believe importing vast parts of the interpreter into its compile).
There are some inherent benefits in this step.
Basically the OS4 things and AmigaDE is a lock step strategy (previously I think the idea was to move directly to AmigaDE without either a PPC board or an in between AmigaOS). Now the logic seems to be to supply the existing Amiga community with a much revised OS and a board to run it on, in the process of moving towards AmigaDE/OS5.
It is I think really quite elegant - rewriting the Amiga in vanilla C, developing the OS in a couple of steps (4.1 and 4.2) means the transition to OS5 is really half made.
My personal belief is that Amiga as we know it (its apps) will become a form of legacy ware running within a familiar but radically changed new Amiga OS where apps will be compiled into Toas tools (very handy little objects - each with its own interface and each part automatically becomes a shared library and these are tiny!!).
However, the main benefit will be that Amiga will become the first full OS that is CPU independant, capable of being hoisted or booting whatever machine you happen to have, small enough for PDAs and whatever else can hold a few megabytes of ROM.
For users its means that a piece of software can potentially always run even whent he OS changes beyond recognition and whatever hardware is there. For developers it means compiling once and having their software everywhere (I would not be surprised if some bigger developers wrap the whole thing up with their software.
Greg Schofield
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I read most of the MONO/dotNET posts, so here is my 2 cents;
It could go in its own direction, but that would be counter-productive unless its adoption starts to rival that of the Microsoft original.
The Ximian connection comes from the fact that they were instrumental in starting the MONO project, long before Novell entered they picture.
Toying with MONO (or dotGNU as it will be known) is playing a very dangerous game. Microsoft has shown time and time again that they don't mind breaking compatibility with sidekick standards (DOS, J++, .doc, etc...), and this will certainly be the case with MONO.
The idea behind such technologies is to make them hardware agnostic.
It would be in the best interest to stick with Java for web services since Sun Microsystems doesn't mind others to join in on the effort. Why mess with something that will always be one step behind the mothership?
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AmigaMac wrote:
I read most of the MONO/dotNET posts, so here is my 2 cents;
It could go in its own direction, but that would be counter-productive unless its adoption starts to rival that of the Microsoft original.
The Ximian connection comes from the fact that they were instrumental in starting the MONO project, long before Novell entered they picture.
Toying with MONO (or dotGNU as it will be known) is playing a very dangerous game. Microsoft has shown time and time again that they don't mind breaking compatibility with sidekick standards (DOS, J++, .doc, etc...), and this will certainly be the case with MONO.
The idea behind such technologies is to make them hardware agnostic.
It would be in the best interest to stick with Java for web services since Sun Microsystems doesn't mind others to join in on the effort. Why mess with something that will always be one step behind the mothership?
It wouldn’t stop open source camp from having dotNET compatible ecosystem in open source OSes e.g. Linux.
SUN’s JAVA technology usually supports a single programming language i.e. JAVA. While MONO/dotNET supports multiple programming languages. It gives the application programmers the freedom to chose their favourite programming language without being tied down to just JAVA.
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Hi NihilVor
> I've been reading the posts with a grin.
Ok, thank you !
> You seem to buy the standard bbvr line that Amiga is not competition.
How do you know what I buy ? :-) I know that Genesi and Amiga are competitior, why shouldn't I know.
However thats no reason for not having a businessrelation... or ?
Who comes first with their os, I do not think plays any bigger role in the long run. I also know that many users, for now, of course is Amiga and ex Amiga users.
And some questions to you also as you make some statements;
1; Who is the Amiga developers that Genesi have tried to bring to court ?
2; Which are the attempt that bbrv have done for trying bancrupting Amiga ?
Cheers
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GGS: Being neutral ain't easy. :roll:
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Indeed, looking to adopt MONO would be a far more adventurous move. The only drawback I see with MONO is that it is basically an open-source "copy" of .NET, which mean the direction is dictated by Microsoft.
Linux X86 <> Linux PPC <> Linux (what ever the next CPU of the day) re-compiling applications would be less of an issue with MONO/dotGNU/dotNET ecosystem.
Note that it doesn’t stop the open source groups to borrow some concepts from MS’s dotNET framework. The compatibility (to a certain degree) with MS’s dotNET is just the added bonus.
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@GGS
He wrote courting, as in "uppvakta" or "smöra".
Sorry about the swedish.
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It wouldn’t stop open source camp from having dotNET compatible ecosystem in open source OSes e.g. Linux.
Unfortunately that wont be the saving grace if incompatibilities arise via web services on the internet. This will become issue as it already has been an issue with IE versus Netscape... get my drift?
SUN’s JAVA technology usually supports a single programming language i.e. JAVA. While MONO/dotNET supports multiple programming languages. It gives the application programmers the freedom to chose their favourite programming language without being tied down to just JAVA.
That's not the angle I'm hitting at and yeah I know about the multiple language support, which is a great concept on its own. But with Microsoft wanting to leverage its monopoly with Windows and finally overtake the web with dotNET, this multiple language support might be an oversight as far as the other guys are concerned. My thoughts on Java are really with the idea that Sun is willing to let others adopt that strategy into their own, and that's a better approach then trying to get dotGNU to mimic dotNET without error.
I'm not against the MONO project since that at least provides a safety net if Java doesn't succeed.
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Joanna;
So you have choosed side then :-)
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He wrote courting, as in "uppvakta" or "smöra".
Sorry about the swedish.
Ok, thank you for correcting, I misunderstood then.
But for call upon then, if that was the meaning, is that something wrong ?
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Hi again Step
Ok, thats real good to look for new investors new partners for A1/OS4/DE and revenous..., lets start...
But, and please remember what I now write is not meant for you, so please dont take it that way.
And now here is something to discuss.
You did suggest that the contract should be nullified, and I asked who should gain from this and if the contract in itself is a problem, which if this was the case, considering nullify it perhaps should be something to think of.
The real answer is probably that nobody should gain anything from nullify, and neither the products A1 or OS4 or DE should. Considering nullify is just to say... we arent interrested and we are not interrested in ourselfs either.
The only thing that could be of any benefit would be if try getting something being made.
For going even further, I would like to say its Amiga Inc that dont care. And by doing this they also show that they dont care of either A1 or OS4 or DE, because they as it seems just say, lets the court decide, we dont care. If they did care, they instead should have sayed something like... ok we have this damm contract, which could be seen as a possible businesopportunity, what can we do with it, the other part want something, can we sit down and see if we can come forward to something which we can gain from.
Can we get something out from this that should be a benefit for us and also for OS4 or A1 or DE. And thats exactly what bbrv seems to try to do, out from his point of view.
As what is common with contracts is that it is at least two parts that signs, and normally also that all involved should gain something.
I know and understand that things might change by time goes by, but that doesn't change that it always can be new possibilities, by looking into things and see how we can change and get something out from the new conditions.
And finally, in what way do Amiga Inc show that they are interrested in A1, OS4 or DE in any other way ? I haven't seen them doing anything at all.
All the best and Take care !
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GGS: well. actually.. It was pointed to me bit over a year ago by some die-hard red trolls... My comments towards Ainc was too much for them so they concluded I must be some 'Blue troll' .. :-P
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Unfortunately that wont be the saving grace if incompatibilities arise via web services on the internet. This will become issue as it already has been an issue with IE versus Netscape... get my drift?
Netscape/AOL $crewed up with their version 6 and paid for it. Web services is one area of the whole MONO/dotNET package.
That's not the angle I'm hitting at and yeah I know about the multiple language support, which is a great concept on its own. But with Microsoft wanting to leverage its monopoly with Windows and finally overtake the web with dotNET, this multiple language support might be an oversight as far as the other guys are concerned. My thoughts on Java are really with the idea that Sun is willing to let others adopt that strategy into their own, and that's a better approach then trying to get dotGNU to mimic dotNET without error.
No one can stop the open source/Linux groups in borrowing the concepts from MS’s dotNET and create their own application and development ecosystem for Linux/GNU. The compatibility with MS’s dotNET is just the added bonus.
With dotNET ecosystem, it enables MS to deploy a single application title to be targeted for multiple HW platforms in transparently form.
This can be applied for Linux as well i.e. it reduces the user’s intervention in re-compiling applications between Linux X86 and Linux PPC (or what ever the CPU that is in vouge at that time).
MONO's deveopment is inline with Crossover-Office*, Trans-gamming* and WINE/WINEX* open source (mainly from the Linux camp) initiative.
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Joanna:
Yes, it seems people tends to want to put people into some kind of camps for some reason.
My guess is that the most people can see advantages in different solutions, and that different solutions might fit in different cases.
Anyway, everything is always open for changes.
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>How do you know what I buy ? I know that Genesi and Amiga >are competitior, why shouldn't I know.
I was merely reading between the lines (thus I said "seems"). You suggested that Genesi would have nothing to gain from Amiga going under. My suggestion is that it was a line of spin on their part because, whether true or not, Genesi acts as if they do have something to gain from that.
>However thats no reason for not having a businessrelation... >or ?
I'm sure Amiga has some good reasons (obvious reasons) for not wanting DE on Genesi, and in such a market it is understandable. In my opinion, spending any amount of time porting DE might be considered a waste of time, and while I'm sure they'll put out a 4.X version, a Morphos version would just be a further waste.
>And some questions to you also as you make some >statements;
>1; Who is the Amiga developers that Genesi have tried to >bring to court ?
The key to that is in the word "court," as in actively trying to get them to develop products for Morphos. Not, "take them to court!"
As far as a question of bankrupting Amiga through the courts, bbvr doesn't actually deny that it might be something of an incentive (does this contradict the above--sure it does, but one can't expect them to come out and be that blunt) . Think back to that ANN thread a few months ago.
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NihilVor:
Last post now.
Yes, I also see that that the respectively parts in this case can be seen as acting as they gain something from if the other is going under or disappear, and usually this is also what comes up to mind. I could imagine myself in thinking that way also.
However I still dont think any of them have anything to win out from this in the long run.
As from my point of view, I believe we should focus on the fact that different PPC-solutions is developed. Normally in a market, when costumers see that there is several, or at least some different solutions to choose from, that will make more possible interrested costumers considering any of them. Maybe that also will attract even more possible players to come into that market in a time. That is what I would like to consider as an important factor. Also competition normally is of good in this aspect.
As for the rest, about Amiga Inc having obviuos reason for not wanting DE on Genesi, I leave this passing by for the moment.