Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: oaktree on November 28, 2003, 09:08:37 AM
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I might be smoking crack or having a mid-life crisis, but it seems like even TODAY there are a lot of loyal Amiga fans. Amazing considering the thing hasn't been in production since God knows when.
So being one of these loyal fans, missing the Amiga OS, which OS/2 was still viable since windows blows...
I was wondering if anyone here things that the Amiga would be a popular seller if someone brought it back? What features would it have to have in today's market? Would it need to support legacy applications?
Hey people, Apple is running Unix/Linux now on OSX, so weird things have already happened... and that proves anything is possible. lol
I'm curious... anyone know any investors that might jump on the bandwagon? :)
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One word.
AmigaOne.
Look it up.
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JoNty
#AmigaIRC
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:-? Do we need two copies of the same thread? There's another copy (http://amiga.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12948&forum=1)located in Talk-about. It's about two minutes younger.(http://amiga.org/images/subject/icon3.gif) It's time to remove one of them, I think...
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Hey Oaktree,
If you're in england consider coming along to this computer show (http://www.petergordon.org.uk/os4/).
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Be prepared to be bombarded with information from the three current contenders to the Amiga throne... AmigaOS, MorphOS and AROS. Quick summary, I'm sure the intersted parties will provide more details...
1. AmigaOS (running on the AmigaOne): PowerPC operating system, will not run on a pure M68K machine. Still in closed beta, supposedly hitting public beta this December. Written by Hyperion Entertainment, based off original AmigaOS source code (but largely a complete rewrite - all the BCPL and m68K asm got rewritten in C and some PPC asm), so it works internally very similarly to 3.x. The AmigaOne it runs on is a modified Teron PX, arranged by Eyetech. It's source-compatible with AmigaOS 3.x and will run 68K binaries via emulation. Will also run on Cyberstorm and BPPC accelerators.
2. MorphOS (running on the Pegasos): Another pure PPC OS, built as a "box" (basically a protected subsystem) on top of a microkernel. Written by Genesi (same people who sell the Pegasos). Out of beta for about two or three versions now (it's in 1.4 now, but I believe it was a beta up until 1.2, maybe 1.1). Unfortunately only runs on a machine that is currently no longer in production (the Pegasos 1), but the Pegasos 2 will supposedly start selling sometime this December, and you should be able to buy a 2nd hand Pegasos 1. It's source-compatible with AmigaOS 3.x and will run 68K binaries via emulation. Will also run on some PPC cards, but I can't remember which ATM.
3. AROS (running on an x86 PC or classic Amiga): The open-source alternative, by Team AROS. Shares some code with MorphOS, but it's a lot closer to AmigaOS architecturally. It's source-compatible with AmigaOS 3.x but AFAIK they don't have an emulator so you can't run old programs unless you're using a real Amiga.
Neither of the three have chipset emulation so you can't run old games on either - you must use something like UAE for that. For system-legal apps, you should be OK. In terms of price, the AmigaOne is more expensive ($750-$850 for a G4 model, depending where you buy it), the Pegasos is cheaper ($725 for a G4 Pegasos2, around $300 for a G4 Pegasos 1, if you can find it). Cheapest is AROS (runs on the PC you already have :-))
Here's the rub: there's plenty of animosity between the three groups (rather, between followers of AmigaOS on the one side ("red") and the other two on the other ("blue" for MorphOS, I have no idea if AROS has picked a colour...). The reasons are mostly due to historical disputes, there's no real reason why they could not be cooperating. So if anyone starts making extreme claims about any solution (along the lines of "it will never be released" or "it's based on stolen code") just treat it with a large pinch of salt.
This animosity also means that AmigaOS won't run on a Pegasos, and MorphOS won't run on an AmigaOne. There are people who say they got it to work, and they probably did, but these are not officially supported options (again, those disputes).
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oaktree wrote:
I was wondering if anyone here things that the Amiga would be a popular seller if someone brought it back? What features would it have to have in today's market? Would it need to support legacy applications?
If the Amiga (a unique and proprietary hardware platform made exclusively for AmigaOS) was to be brought back I guess it'd had to be made by someone with enough dosh and engineering/marketing resources. Something like NVIDIA or ATI, if it were to follow in the graphics/"multimedia" track.
I remember I had some hopes for a new Amiga back when Gateway owned the name.
I'm not sorry that there won't be a new Amiga though. When you can't make cheaper and better hardware than everybody else - and stay ahead - the obvious thing to do is what's currently being done, drop hardware and make AmigaOS for non-AmigaOS-specific third party hardware. Let hardware makers worry about hardware, and sell the OS for the hardware people want.
I just think it's too bad that this riddance of Amiga hardware is an advantage that is made moot, since we still will have to pretend that there will be "Amigas", as the third party hardware (currently Teron motherboards) has to be sold using an Amiga, Inc. distribution license and be bought together with AmigaOS from a licensed distributor (currently as "AmigaOnes"). A poor emulation of an 1980's strategy. Fortunately that's just a business decision (an extremely stupid and counterproductive one, in true Commodore tradition, IMO) independent of engineering and development, so I'm just hoping it will be retracted (http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk) ASAP. If they yank away a viable hardware base and hardware market, entirely unrelated to Amiga Inc., from under the feet of their own software product AmigaOS, then AmigaOS will remain as dormant/dead as it is today. There are only so many people that are prepared to pay $800 for a $500 motherboard relabelled and dongled for an artificially created "Amiga" monopoly.
I'm curious... anyone know any investors that might jump on the bandwagon? :)
I'm afraid all the owners of the Amiga brand, since Commodore and to an ever increasing extent onward, have made everything humanly possible to devaluate that brand. I believe that for there to be a point with a new Amiga, the hypothetical company would have to spend more than pocket change on its development and marketing, and I doubt Gateway even spent that kind of money on "the new Amiga" when they said they were working on one. Being better and cheaper costs money. Except for some of us here, not many would buy the machine for its name alone. Not that name.
Nobody's planning to make a new Amiga, and I don't think that will change. This would be a good thing for AmigaOS, if only Amiga Inc. would adapt its software strategy to reality and stop trying to make people pretend they'll have to buy "Amiga hardware" anyway.
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The C=64 is also still alive, in lesser quantities than it used to, but there are still games being made as well as stunning demo's. You can get a harddrive and cdrom for it, connect a Silversurfer if you want to and even go on the internet. There is also a brandnew 64, but the question is also if it's gonna be interesting enough to buy ... just like the A1 and Pegasos ...
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AFAIK they don't have an emulator so you can't run old programs unless you're using a real Amiga
Well, UAE is provided. Not sure if it works... I thought they were also working on or had the idea of integrating it into the OS! Which would be very very cool... beyond cool even :)
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In the current economic climate, investing in the Amiga would be financial suicide. The company that owns it (or rather the name) is bankrupt and two million in debt. It has less than 10,000 users worldwide (and most of them on PC-based emulators) and so it would never bring returns matching what you'd have to spend to market it again.
The closest thing we have to an investor in the Amiga market are Genesi SARL, but they are alienated by around half of the community because they don't have the Amiga name, and to be quite honest, they don't have the spending power either.
Unless someone with major spending power (such as in the hundred millions) comes in and brings new professional developers, modern but original hardware, game company sponsorships, and advertising, and at the same time a miracle happens and all the IT super-corporations like Microsoft collapse, Amiga can't be rescued and is safely dead.
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@CodeSmith
Slight correction:
MorphOS runs "all" kinds of PPC-code too. That is PuP, WOS and offcourse
MorphOS-native. MorphOS will (actually DOES) run on all PPC-cards for
Amiga (well there are only 2 kinds ;-) ).
Oh and where did you get that inflated price for a G4-Peg from ?
G3 (600MHz) 299Euro + tax/shipping
G4 (1GHz) 499Euro + tax/shipping
The A1 prices you listed are also without tax/shipping.
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Sorry... I'll see if I can kill the other thread.
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xeron - thanks for the info. I looked at Amiga OS4... very impressive. :)
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I'm not sure about financial suicide. It would be hard to get investors without a strong plan to be sure. HOwever I thought Gateway purchased all the rights to the Amiga, last I heard.
Looking at WindowsXP, OSX, SUSE, RedHat, and pc computing in general, I think there is room for improvement. This means there might be a market ledge.
Don't forget that Linux grew from popularity with zero budget, and RedHat's initial starting budget wasn't that big (before they wen't public).
The linux and Amiga community would definately need to join forces. Something else too... 10K loyal Amiga fans make a strong voice.
When all is said and done at the end of the day, I'm just not "happy" with the work environment I have. Multitasking is a joke. Also just like last night, something screwed up and I had to soft reinstall WinXP & Office.
What the platform would need, like any technology, is a killer app or a market niche. Multitasking would be a good start as most multitasking on PC and Apple isn't that grand today when compared to the Amiga of 1989. Second I think Apple/Microsoft (AM) & Linux are at the extremes. AM operating systems are "trying" to be so friendly that you have trouble tweaking it and they don't really have any good UI innovations. Linux is powerful, but can be a VERY steep learning curve for new users who what to make use of that power.
It just seems like the computer world is creeping along, and someone needs to wake it up. Honestly the AM & Linux powers should welcome something new like this because it would fire enthusiasm to the entire computing market.
I'm just tossing ideas around... I don't have the backing for such a project, but I do know some people that might.
Lot of "if's" though.
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Hi oaktree,
Let me start by saying hi and welcome to the site :-)
Anyhow, basically codesmith summed up the current climate pretty well. There 3 options you can choose, each has its plus and minus points. And there really is a lot of pointless animosity.
In my own opinion, zealots within each 'camp' are guilty of attempting to push their views immediately onto anybody asking what direction to take, promoting their system by invariably slamming the 'opposition' instead of simply extoling the virtues of their platform. In a good deal of cases, these people simply haven't used either alternative to their chosen system and simply regurgitate old (and often outdated) views and (mis)information about them.
You rarely see a simple explanation of what's good about any given system without derision about the alternatives attached to it. Virtually every discussion on the matter descends into a flame war (and no, thats not an open invite for anybody to start another!). It is truly pathetic I am sorry to say.
Of course, what these people fail to realise is that all they actually succeed in doing is putting off the new and curious for good.
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by CodeSmith on 2003/11/28 4:52:26
3. AROS (running on an x86 PC or classic Amiga): The open-source alternative, by Team AROS. Shares some code with MorphOS, but it's a lot closer to AmigaOS architecturally. It's source-compatible with AmigaOS 3.x but AFAIK they don't have an emulator so you can't run old programs unless you're using a real Amiga.
AROS has UAE 0.8.22, and GUI for UAE is currently being coded.
This animosity also means that AmigaOS won't run on a Pegasos, and MorphOS won't run on an AmigaOne. There are people who say they got it to work, and they probably did, but these are not officially supported options (again, those disputes).
AFAIK, MOS runs on Teron mobos for awhile now. For it to work on the Teron/A1 mobo, the BIOS has to be reflashed. OS4 may see the light of day on a Peg, but it will have to be a third party who rebadges the Peg to A1 licensing standards.
Dammy
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@Kronos:
Thanks for the corrections on what and where MorphOS runs.
As to the price for a Peg2, well, as you've probably guessed by now I'm not currently a Pegasos user (I'm leaning towards the AmigaOne side of the story, but haven't bought either yet) so I'm not 100% up to date on Pegasos prices. So I went to pegasosppc.com, click on "purchase", then click on the little US flag (that's where I live!), takes me to ultraspec.com. Click on "Pre-Order", and there's the price. If I were going to buy a Peg 2 for myself, that's what I'd do...
Anyway, I suspect the $725 for the Peg2 does not include tax or shipping either.
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here we go again....
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Well, I have no intention of turning this into a flamefest. I posted what I believe, to the best of my knowlege, to be facts about the current three dominant amiga platforms. Kronos graciously filled in some gaps and asked me a legitimate question, which I answered with verifiable information. No big deal, and I hope no-one else makes it into one.
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@CodeSmith
Looking at the price of G3 and G4 on that site, and the limited info available
I can only assume that these are for barebone-systems,includeing
case, RAM, HD (small one), GFX and CD.
The only reasonable explaination when you remeber at what prices the boards+CPU
are sold elsewhere.
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I guess, if so the site is a bit unclear. If you follow the links for prebuilt ("custom") systems, it says the price is to be determined, that's why I think the $725 applies to motherboard+CPU only. In any case, I think the price seems high to you because you're thinking in Euros (living in Germany, that's quite natural :-)) According to XE.com, right now USD725 is EUR605.
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Thought the thread was going onto same old same old, but actually I should have read it more closely...
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Well, the following are the prices listed on the PegasosPPC Webstore (https://www.pegasosppc.com/store.php)
1gig G4
US: $598.45
EU: €499.00
600Mhz G3
US: $358.59
EU: €299.00
Note the above prices are only for the CPU and motherboard. Also note, that the first 500 boards to be sent to regular customers are only slated to be built/delivered in the later part of December. Coincidentally, OS4 beta will be in the hands of more people (AFAIK). So it should be an interesting time with a flurry of people sending in their impressions and reviews of both Peg2 and OS4... :-D
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That's of course if everything stays on schedule. 8-) Delays are inevitable in both computing and real-estate. :-(
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by CodeSmith on 2003/11/28 14:16:31
guess, if so the site is a bit unclear. If you follow the links for prebuilt ("custom") systems, it says the price is to be determined, that's why I think the $725 applies to motherboard+CPU only. In any case, I think the price seems high to you because you're thinking in Euros (living in Germany, that's quite natural ) According to XE.com, right now USD725 is EUR605.
If that's the case, Peg2 G4 is DOA (http://www.sonicparts.com/applications/search/itemdetails.asp?sku=MBC-SKN244&sc=pi) .
Dammy
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???
Why does the Pegasos 2 have to be dirt-cheap in order to compete? Lots of people have bought AmigaOnes, they're priced similarly.
January should be interesting, when the reviews of both systems start coming out :-)
[edit: besides, what did you expect? expected Operon sales: several tens of millions; expected AmigaOne and Pegasos 2 sales combined: several tens of thousands]