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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: MarkTime on July 15, 2010, 09:29:07 PM
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Several years ago, I remember a thread where we made some attempt to group Amigans by their use patterns - Amigan's who still exclusively used an Amiga, those who had as a second computer an Amiga, those who only emulated the Amiga - and then there was me, the guy who doesn't own or use an Amiga at all (any longer).
Finally my day has arrived, because, with Icaros VirtualBox Edition, one can simply download the image, turn on the machine within VirtualBox and wa-la, boot to an Amiga-like OS, namely AROS.
I thought I'd give a quick review.
I downloaded Icaros 1.2, and I see there is a 1.2 to 1.2.2 updater and andn a 1.2.2 to 1.2.3 updater. Not planning on doing a lot of heavy use right off, I simply downloaded 1.2 and turned in on - with high hopes.
First, problems. The GRUB bootloader comes up, I try the default choice, I get to a red-arrow screen, but then the system crashes.
I then realize there is an XML file included with the download - that file cannot be loaded by Virtual Box. Wherever I downloaded the file, had the wrong config format for my recent version of Virtual Box.
But XML is human-readable, so I look through the settings and match it up - no go, still crashing.
Finally I go through several choices in the GRUB menu and finally realize that ATA=nodma configuration option will allow me to boot.
So - twiddling with boot settings is not a friendly experience, so whether everyone on every platform experiences this, I don't know - but for me, it was not a smooth experience.
Still - finally working out the issues, I booted to Aros, and it had some default programs and launcher bar.
It certainly reminded me of my days on the Amiga - and I was especially keen to try the Origyn Web Browser.
Unfortunately - the experience with that wasn't great either - just too darn slow.
Now I should mention my host OS is Red Hat Linux 5, running on a 3.0GHZ Opteron 256, dual processor, with 32GB of Ram. dual 500GB SATA drives and one 15K RPM SCSI boot drive.
3.0GHz Opteron 256 - is about 2 generations back. It's slow. Tons of RAM on this machine, but AROS doesn't need the ram anyway. No SSD drives - on top of DMA being turned off, means somewhat slow hard drives as well.
Still I expected for such a lightweight system, not to be dealing with such slowness, but it was slow all around.
But, I will say this - the VirtualBox install made it easier to test, than my experiences with Amiga's in the past. It was not the carefree install I expect when running a VirtualBox OS (indeed I've never had an issue with other os's) - but nevertheless it shows great promise.
Origyn Web Browser, shows great promise, but too slow for me to actually browse around with it. FireFox 4.0 beta 1, absolutely flies on this same machine.
But if I were running this on an SSD machine with an i7 processor - I will definately retest the speed.
all in all-I'm excited about AROS - looking good.
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Aros was nice on my Netbook too!
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But, I will say this - the VirtualBox install made it easier to test, than my experiences with Amiga's in the past. It was not the carefree install I expect when running a VirtualBox OS (indeed I've never had an issue with other os's) - but nevertheless it shows great promise.
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about Icaros VirtualBox distribution. Your experience mirrors mine.
Every system I have tested VirtualBox on, when running Icaros (or AROS) is DOG slow. OWB, like you tested, is a great example. It seems no matter how good the system it can take 30 seconds to a full minute for OWB just to open in VirtualBox.
Of course a quick install to a USB thumbdrive and then booting native it's a different world. Even on a netbook, OWB for example, loads in seconds. Everything is lightning fast.
One of the appeals of showing off AROS/Icaros running native to non-Amiga users is the lighting speed of it. Workbench is so fast it sort of feels almost unreal. All this is lost when using VirtualBox and makes it seem like molasses.
So, while on the one hand VirtualBox lets more users try AROS out, it also makes it look very unappealing and give the impressions of "Why would anyone use that?"
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Yeah, I have mixed feelings about Icaros VirtualBox distribution. Your experience mirrors mine.
Every system I have tested VirtualBox on, when running Icaros (or AROS) is DOG slow. OWB, like you tested, is a great example. It seems no matter how good the system it can take 30 seconds to a full minute for OWB just to open in VirtualBox.
Of course a quick install to a USB thumbdrive and then booting native it's a different world. Even on a netbook, OWB for example, loads in seconds. Everything is lightning fast.
One of the appeals of showing off AROS/Icaros running native to non-Amiga users is the lighting speed of it. Workbench is so fast it sort of feels almost unreal. All this is lost when using VirtualBox and makes it seem like molasses.
So, while on the one hand VirtualBox lets more users try AROS out, it also makes it look very unappealing and give the impressions of "Why would anyone use that?"
It's fast on my system (Core 2 Duo) using VirtualBox. However I cannot get the Icaros Desktop 1.2.3 update installed. The ISO image doesn't boot (some "multiboot" error), and if I set it not to boot, and boot from the virtual hard disk, not sure how to install it after that.
Also the internet connection doesn't seem to work, or freezes if I try to test or save it.
I did have internet working once, I think that was just with plain 1.2 though.
Anyway frustrating experience...
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My experience of Icaros on Virtual box have been similar; slow, but it works.
My experience of native Icaros has been terrible; random failures to allocate IP address & Gateway from DHCP successfully (try to manually configure and get 'cannot restart network stack' error), random crashes, non native screen resolution (annoyance rather than a problem). Certainly not ready as a desktop OS.
With the amount of work being put into Aros hopefully these issues will be resolved!
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@MarkTime - speed
VirtualBox works entremly well if you have virtualization in CPU and it works extremly poor without it. I have Phenom II 550 and AROS runs at "native" speed under VirtualBox there.
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@MarkTime - speed
VirtualBox works entremly well if you have virtualization in CPU and it works extremly poor without it. I have Phenom II 550 and AROS runs at "native" speed under VirtualBox there.
Yeah, that's quite likely to be the biggest problem.
@MarkTime:
A solution worth trying: Install the files into a directory instead, and download the Linux-hosted version of AROS, copy boot/aros-unix into the boot directory under where you put the files, and start that instead. That's what I've done with my Icaros setup, since the CPU on my laptop doesn't support hardware virtualization.
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install in V for me was fine, I have full cpu virt on my intel quad core. But random crashes in the system all the time. Move mouse... lockup... move window.. lock up. not all the time, might work fine for 10 minutes then lock up... might work fine for 1 minute and lock up.
I'm guessing there is some wild pointers going on underneath
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I tried Icaros in virtual box last night, for me its very fast, seems stable, updated to latest version fine, i am well impressed, have it running on a core 2 quad, only thing is i cant get internet connection to work.
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install in V for me was fine, I have full cpu virt on my intel quad core. But random crashes in the system all the time. Move mouse... lockup... move window.. lock up. not all the time, might work fine for 10 minutes then lock up... might work fine for 1 minute and lock up.
I'm guessing there is some wild pointers going on underneath
VirtualBox is not a good choice if your BIOS doesn't support Virtualization technology. Any guest OS in VB will run slow. AROS on MWare Player and no virtualization support in the bios, will run faster but sound is not supported. SUch ashame that QEMU seems to be behind as in development but I found it very good. Lightweight, somewhat faster than VMWare and VirtualBox and all virtual hardware is supported.
Check this thread if you want to see more..
http://arosworld.org/articles.php?article_id=7
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Frankly speaking, it's the first and last time I provide a VE version for VirtualBox. Before of that, I supported VMware technology only and, besides it had no sound, just worked. VirtualBox gave only problems.
First, you have to "import" the appliance and not just run it inside virtualbox, or there are good chances it won't work at all. Second, depending on your version of VirtualBox client, you may have to disable DMA into AROS. This CUTS DOWN SPEED to a little fraction of the original speed when dealing with drive operations ==> it slows down AROS in a barely acceptable way. Third, you must remember to enable the vhardware virtualization layer if your physical processor supports it, or speed will be furthermore cut down. Fourth, and this is crazy, pointer sometimes get stuck in a invisible window, and you have to move it fester upside down, or leftside right, to free it from those un-existent boundaries.
Now I'm about to choosing either to turn back the VE version to VMware, or to kill it directly with the next Icaros point release. I don't see many motivations to keep alive an "already configured version for this or that virtual machine technology" when you can set up your one in few minutes without so much efforts. And, for people that don't want to install Icaros to the metal directly, there's always the embedded QEMU machine with the Live edition. But the VE experience with VirtualBox is over.
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Frankly speaking, it's the first and last time I provide a VE version for VirtualBox. Before of that, I supported VMware technology only and, besides it had no sound, just worked. VirtualBox gave only problems.
First, you have to "import" the appliance and not just run it inside virtualbox, or there are good chances it won't work at all. Second, depending on your version of VirtualBox client, you may have to disable DMA into AROS. This CUTS DOWN SPEED to a little fraction of the original speed when dealing with drive operations ==> it slows down AROS in a barely acceptable way. Third, you must remember to enable the vhardware virtualization layer if your physical processor supports it, or speed will be furthermore cut down. Fourth, and this is crazy, pointer sometimes get stuck in a invisible window, and you have to move it fester upside down, or leftside right, to free it from those un-existent boundaries.
Now I'm about to choosing either to turn back the VE version to VMware, or to kill it directly with the next Icaros point release. I don't see many motivations to keep alive an "already configured version for this or that virtual machine technology" when you can set up your one in few minutes without so much efforts. And, for people that don't want to install Icaros to the metal directly, there's always the embedded QEMU machine with the Live edition. But the VE experience with VirtualBox is over.
Yup! I am with you Paolone. No point in providing a VE when you can always mount the ISO and install it. Maybe a bounty to develop drivers for the VMWare sound should be opened?
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Yup! I am with you Paolone. No point in providing a VE when you can always mount the ISO and install it. Maybe a bounty to develop drivers for the VMWare sound should be opened?
It is. Already.
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It is. Already.
OK Then!
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Well, to be fair, I have to say that ANY OS that I've run under VirtualBox has been dog slow and fraught with problems....except for MS-DOS and it doesn't even qualify as a real OS. You really should try AROS on real hardware. It's very responsive.
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Originally Posted by yakumo9275
install in V for me was fine, I have full cpu virt on my intel quad core.
VirtualBox is not a good choice if your BIOS doesn't support Virtualization technology.
I understand, thats why I said I had full cpu virt. I have VT-x and VT-d in virtual box enabled in my intel cpu. I run lots of virtual box stuff (dual cpu windows 2000, xp, dual core freebsd, netbsd, linux, haiku) with no problem whatsoever, all with fast speed, bridged ethernet and between 1-3gb of memory per vm.
Icaros under virtual box was very flakey, the only times anything on virtualbox gave me issues.
I have quad core with 8gb ram on 64bit linux.
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I meant to update my original 'quick review'
When I got home, I put Icaros on another machine where I have virtual box - it's a core 2 duo with SSD drive.
The difference was astonshing.
Yes, my Opteron 256 machine is an older machine, and doesn't support Virtualization - but why exactly is that important here? That just means you won't get dual core support, but its not like Icaros needed another core.
I run Windows XP and Linux quite acceptably on the Opteron Box.
But in any event, yes a more modern machine, ran it great.
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Yes, my Opteron 256 machine is an older machine, and doesn't support Virtualization - but why exactly is that important here? That just means you won't get dual core support, but its not like Icaros needed another core.
If the CPU doesn't have virtualization extensions Virtualbox needs to do para-virtualization, which involves one or more of a variety of hacks to trap and emulate any attempts by the OS use privileged instructions for example. It adds a tremendous amount of overhead whether or not the OS in question makes much use of the various functionality.