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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on June 29, 2010, 07:31:18 AM
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News from mailman via amigaworld.net
During Vintage Computer Fair, which took place last Saturday, Nicholas and Richard Piotrowski exclusively for PPA (Polish Amiga News Portal) interviewed Trevor Dickinson from A-EON.
Apart from what have been already discussed in the forum, he mentions some interesting new issues concerning X1000 system and its future. Interview is available both in Polish (http://www.ppa.pl/artykul-Trevor.Dickinson.czerwiec.2010.-3_32_1256.html) and English (http://www.ppa.pl/artykul-Trevor.Dickinson.June.2010.-3_32_1257.html).
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Summer release is now an autumn/winter release? Good news is that it gives more time to stash some money but still the price...ouch!
for what the machine can do... unless the software can keep it useful (and fun) for at least 12 years :)
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the morphos dudes will be thrilled that he has a machine with it installed Im sure
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200,000 euro investment? Is he serious? 200k euro investment in 5 year old spec power pc hardware?
If I had 200k to invest in a hardware project for resale, I'd be researching quad core quad socket, quad cpu motherboards with 16 or more processing cores and research putting additional processors on pci cards, 4-8 per expansion slot. I'd want a computer with 7 slots for plenty of expansion, and probably an old school REAL full tower case.
Thats where power mac, linux and windows user will be going in 5+ years, ridiculous multiprocessing. If someone came along and beat them all there by 5+ years... well...
I guess I'll have to wait for my computer with 16 primary processing cores and 30 secondary processors... sigh.
Steven
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and even with 16 cores, whatever version of windows they are peddling by then will still make it run essentially at the same speed as a 16 meg scumpaq running windows 3.1 :)
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Yes your absolutely right, but I'll be running linux or hackintosh :)
Steven
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Yes your absolutely right, but I'll be running linux or hackintosh :)
Steven
"liberating" PC's :)
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200,000 euro investment? Is he serious? 200k euro investment in 5 year old spec power pc hardware?
If I had 200k to invest in a hardware project for resale, I'd be researching quad core quad socket, quad cpu motherboards with 16 or more processing cores and research putting additional processors on pci cards, 4-8 per expansion slot. I'd want a computer with 7 slots for plenty of expansion, and probably an old school REAL full tower case.
Thats where power mac, linux and windows user will be going in 5+ years, ridiculous multiprocessing. If someone came along and beat them all there by 5+ years... well...
I guess I'll have to wait for my computer with 16 primary processing cores and 30 secondary processors... sigh.
Steven
Yes, because surely, with 200,000 euro, you'd be able to design a computer that'd blow away anything multi-billion dollar companies could possibly come up with. :rolleyes:
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I bet he could have got AmigaOS converted to x86 for 200000 quid!
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I bet he could have got AmigaOS converted to x86 for 200000 quid!
Excellent point!
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200,000 euros is an insane amount to spend on developing a motherboard.
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Yes its alot, especially for a motherboard that is so standard blah.
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€200K on a board that is not only bog standard, but is also old technology and will only sell a few hundred.
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It would be interesting to know how much of that 200k euro went directly to Hyperion and if any of that money was from business development grants from the government.
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Excellent point!
That works out to like 3 guys @ 80k USD for 1 year. Could three guys port AOS 4 over to x86 in one year?
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That works out to like 3 guys @ 80k USD for 1 year. Could three guys port AOS 4 over to x86 in one year?
Yeah.
For $200,000.00 though Trevor could have bought 1000 of these motherboard/CPU combos for $89 each.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5567179&Sku=B69-4062
Given those 1000 boards for FREE to pretty much every member left in the Amiga community when they buy a copy of OS4. He'd still have $110,000.00 left over just to give to Hyperion.
Hyperion gets $120,000 free + $160,000 in OS4 sales for a total of $280,000.00
But then we'd have 1000 active Amiga users running modern hardware. Hyperion would then be selling their $160 OS with an $89 dongle instead of a $2000 one.
No, I think the $200,000.00 is better spent to get Hyperion to waste another year of their time porting the OS to X1000 so 12 people already using OS4 can now run it on 4 year old hardware instead of 8 year old hardware.
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That works out to like 3 guys @ 80k USD for 1 year. Could three guys port AOS 4 over to x86 in one year?
Well, it's OS4 Devs, who knows since it took six years to port to PPC. Now if we are talking Dr. Schulz (AROS), I wouldn't think that would be a problem, in his spare time besides his work and family time. Now if you had thee coders like Dr. Schulz working full time, I think they would have a reasonable chance of creating a next generation OS that would be x86_64 based within a year's time.
It's a massive shame that 200K GBP wasn't spent more wisely.
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I bet he could have got AmigaOS converted to x86 for 200000 quid!
/thread.
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"...converted to x86 for 200000 quid!"
Maybe the idea is to get some return of invest through a rather expensive "special system" than from an x86 operating system sold without hardware. Even if you sell standard pc hardware with it - I don't see, how to achieve 200.000 bucks with this. Do you really think hundreds and thousands users will appear an pay for another x86 operating system?
I still don't get it - why not use AROS? It's (of course) free - you can't make real money in the x86 world - ask ClusterUK how much money he earns through his AROS systems and then ask him, if he were able to earn any money if he had actually to PAY the AROS developers....
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"...converted to x86 for 200000 quid!"
Maybe the idea is to get some return of invest through a rather expensive "special system" than from an x86 operating system sold without hardware.
Better 100% of 100 systems than 0.001% of a billion eh?
Even if you sell standard pc hardware with it - I don't see, how to achieve 200.000 bucks with this. Do you really think hundreds and thousands users will appear an pay for another x86 operating system?
Depends on the cost - Zeta (an ill fated BeOS derivative) for instance sold several thousand copies.
I still don't get it - why not use AROS? It's (of course) free - you can't make real money in the x86 world - ask ClusterUK how much money he earns through his AROS systems and then ask him, if he were able to earn any money if he had actually to PAY the AROS developers....
Tbh if AROS had had 200K injected into it you would be seeing a renaissance over there. Oh and as for paying developers, Hyperion doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of that itself.
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"...converted to x86 for 200000 quid!"
Maybe the idea is to get some return of invest through a rather expensive "special system" than from an x86 operating system sold without hardware. Even if you sell standard pc hardware with it - I don't see, how to achieve 200.000 bucks with this.
Within two years, the MorphOS development team has sold close to 1000 licenses, based on public reports from buyers on MorphZone, at 111.11 or 150 EUR (incl. 19% VAT) each. Within this period, the OS has been available for affordable Mac computers, which include free MacOS licenses, for just a mere 9 months.
Clearly, it is possible to generate revenue exceeding 100.000 EUR selling an "expensive" niche operating system that competes with free Linux, bundled MacOS, etc.
It is not overly far fetched to assume that if somebody invested 200.000 EUR to have a reasonably attractive PowerPC-based OS ported to selected x86 computers in exchange for receiving all software revenues until the investment is paid back, that person or organization might actually break even.
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Better 100% of 100 systems than 0.001% of a billion eh?
Depends on the cost - Zeta (an ill fated BeOS derivative) for instance sold several thousand copies.
Tbh if AROS had had 200K injected into it you would be seeing a renaissance over there. Oh and as for paying developers, Hyperion doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of that itself.
Hyperion might have been able to pay the OS4 Devs if they had sold a decent "Amiga" keyboard and mouse over the past ten years. Note I didn't say decent Amiga computer, if they just had sold what the market had wanted, Hyperion could have paid for the source code of OS4.
What I'm wondering now is A-EON-Hyperion only planning to build 100+ Dev systems and 250 retail systems for the elite Devs and rich end users, what was the point of the A1X1K project in the first place? To sell less then 400 systems @ year in this economy? I can't figure out what the point of this 200K GBP investment is.
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It is not overly far fetched to assume that if somebody invested 200.000 EUR to have a reasonably attractive PowerPC-based OS ported to selected x86 computers in exchange for receiving all software revenues until the investment is paid back, that person or organization might actually break even.
Problem for Hyperion for porting to another arch, unless things have changed from the time of the final court paperwork, they don't own OS4's source code, just binary rights. Less their contract with the OS4 Devs says they have the right to port to another arch of Hyperion's choosing, how can they do so without paying the OS4 Devs off first?
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I can't figure out what the point of this 200K GBP investment is.
To create a more powerful (PPC) board than the others that run AmigaOS4?
Trevor has stated several times that he is not necessarily expecting a massive return - he would like to break even. That suggests that he is in effect supporting his hobby in the hope it lasts a few more years.
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To create a more powerful (PPC) board than the others that run AmigaOS4?
Trevor has stated several times that he is not necessarily expecting a massive return - he would like to break even. That suggests that he is in effect supporting his hobby in the hope it lasts a few more years.
Doesn't make sense to spend that type of money on so few possible sales. Apple apparently only guaranteed production for three to five years and that was in 08. Unless someone pays Apple big money for PA6T license, it's EOL in the not too distant future. How anyone can generate a ROI in such a short time and so few sales without raping the customer is beyond me.
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PA Semi is destined to fit into Apple's supply chain, making chips for iPod, iPads, iPhones and iWhatevers.....
I'm an Apple fanboi and I wouldn't trust Apple's word that they'll keep making chips outside of their own consumption. I mean let's face it, Apple sells more than 350 devices in a good day in Torquay alone, they aren't likely to make decisions based on small change. Apple's plan of controlling the processor in their devices makes it harder to clone them. It also makes it harder to compare specs.
Off course at A-Eon's prices they could probably just buy an iPad, rip the processor out, dump the rest and still meet their price point....
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PA Semi is destined to fit into Apple's supply chain, making chips for iPod, iPads, iPhones and iWhatevers.....
I'm an Apple fanboi and I wouldn't trust Apple's word that they'll keep making chips outside of their own consumption. I mean let's face it, Apple sells more than 350 devices in a good day in Torquay alone, they aren't likely to make decisions based on small change. Apple's plan of controlling the processor in their devices makes it harder to clone them. It also makes it harder to compare specs.
Off course at A-Eon's prices they could probably just buy an iPad, rip the processor out, dump the rest and still meet their price point....
PA Semi doesn't make anything. They are (or were) a fabless semiconductor company. Manufacturing was done by another company (most likely TI).
PA Semi also most likely had nothing to do with the A4 used in the iPad.
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Every time people talk about porting OS4 to x86, it always makes me wonder if I am the only person in the world who know about AROS ?
Heck, they even sell it pre installed on brand new computers these days.
What other amiga flavour can you get for 300 pounds or less on a brand new machine?
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I've always longed for native X86 AmigaOS. AROS is a great step in that direction. I just wish it had more official support and resources to move quicker on it's development.
If the MorphOS team or the OS4 team had decided from the get-go to go totally X86, all of us would be running on very fast X86 and cheap boxes right now. Sure it would have taken many painful years, but we would be there, now.
I hope AROS will progress as it gives another choice and a way to run newly compiled Amiga apps on fast, cheap, X86 hardware.
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Yeah.
For $200,000.00 though Trevor could have bought 1000 of these motherboard/CPU combos for $89 each.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5567179&Sku=B69-4062
Given those 1000 boards for FREE to pretty much every member left in the Amiga community when they buy a copy of OS4. He'd still have $110,000.00 left over just to give to Hyperion.
Hyperion gets $120,000 free + $160,000 in OS4 sales for a total of $280,000.00
But then we'd have 1000 active Amiga users running modern hardware. Hyperion would then be selling their $160 OS with an $89 dongle instead of a $2000 one.
No, I think the $200,000.00 is better spent to get Hyperion to waste another year of their time porting the OS to X1000 so 12 people already using OS4 can now run it on 4 year old hardware instead of 8 year old hardware.
And what does A-Eon get out of your imaginary deal here?
And BTW its $245160 USD at current exchange rates. The article said 200,000 EURO.
I think we all know A-Eon has about a snowball's chance in hell to "break even" on $245160 USD (and counting). But whats the point about imagining about them giving the money away on purpose?
And why such a slave to the brand? Run AROS if you want x86.
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I've always longed for native X86 AmigaOS. AROS is a great step in that direction. I just wish it had more official support and resources to move quicker on it's development.
If so many Amigans were not slaves to the brand AROS would be much more advanced by now.
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Im not sure giving motherboards away that will not run OS4 is really a great idea for Hyperion.
Maybe Microsoft can follow it up by giving people a commodore 64 and hoping they'll buy windows 7 to install on it ?
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It's a massive shame that 200K GBP wasn't spent more wisely.
It is? First, its 163,708 GBP at current exchange rates, as the article said EURO.
Second what value would there be for you in this if they did spend it more wisely? If they did you'd have less to make fun of.
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And what does A-Eon get out of your imaginary deal here?
And BTW its $245160 USD at current exchange rates. The article said 200,000 EURO.
I think we all know A-Eon has about a snowball's chance in hell to "break even" on $245160 USD (and counting). But whats the point about imagining about them giving the money away on purpose?
And why such a slave to the brand? Run AROS if you want x86.
He does run Aros.
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?start=0&topic_id=4758&viewmode=flat&order=ASC
What makes you think he's a slave to the brand ... just because he thinks A-eon has a crap business model? ...
1. Throw money at it.
2. ?????
3. profit!
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No one has asked if he has a brother named Bruce? ;)
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What makes you think he's a slave to the brand ... just because he thinks A-eon has a crap business model? ...
It would rationally explain his fixation. We can all see A-eon has a crap business model.
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It would rationally explain his fixation. We can all see A-eon has a crap business model.
Who is "we" in we can all. Personally I think the whole idea is lunacy, but there seems to be some in this community who believe it is sensible including A-EON/Hyperion themselves. Why would a company pursue a "crap business model"?
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community who believe it is sensible including A-EON/Hyperion themselves. Why would a company pursue a "crap business model"?
Incompetence.
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everyone is aware that the x1000 is not the only machine being sold that can run OS4, correct?
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It is? First, its 163,708 GBP at current exchange rates, as the article said EURO.
Second what value would there be for you in this if they did spend it more wisely? If they did you'd have less to make fun of.
Just a thought but at £1500 per X1000 they'd only need to sell 110 of them to have made as much as it cost to develop. Now assuming that they're only seeing 10% profit from each machine that's 1,100 X1000's to break even.
I'm not sure that there's enough demand in the Amiga community, and I've pulled many of the numbers from my arse (and i'm very tired) :) but that 10% profit per machine is probably pessimistic given the £1500-ish price tag.
They may very well break even on just 500 or so machines if the machine itself is profitable.
Andy
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Who is "we" in we can all. Personally I think the whole idea is lunacy, but there seems to be some in this community who believe it is sensible including A-EON/Hyperion themselves. Why would a company pursue a "crap business model"?
I'd equate "we" to most, if not almost all community members. Its just my humble opinion. I'd guess that even most interested in buying the machine would see the business model as rather nuts.
Why would a company pursue such? Trevor is quoted in the article as saying he'd be happy to break even. To me that says this company is more a vehicle for him to pursue a passion then it is truly a business. Its his money and I certainly don't fault him for risking it to try to benefit the community.
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@AJCopland
You're assuming that the 200k investment so far includes the actual production costs. They're still working the kinks out, they may not have even done a run yet.
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They may very well break even on just 500 or so machines if the machine itself is profitable.
Andy
Do you really even see a market for 500 machines though? Personally I think that is a stretch.
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Do you really even see a market for 500 machines though? Personally I think that is a stretch.
I'm guessing they'll sell 100 tops, probably half that. I've heard a lot of dyed in the wool AOS4 users balking about the price. That's a bad sign.
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Why would a company pursue such? Trevor is quoted in the article as saying he'd be happy to break even. To me that says this company is more a vehicle for him to pursue a passion then it is truly a business. Its his money and I certainly don't fault him for risking it to try to benefit the community.
I'll bite - how does producing a dead-end system like the X1000 benefit the community, and which community are you talking about anyway?
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I'll bite - how does producing a dead-end system like the X1000 benefit the community, and which community are you talking about anyway?
Its a hobby community jorkany. More choices within a hobby are usually beneficial, it gives people another way to explore their hobby, assuming they can afford it.
Sure, if your goal is for "Amiga" to transition from a group of hobby systems and into a competitive role with other computing platforms as actual working platforms then anything taking people away from AROS on any level is bad news. Realistically though people in general are entrenched and are not going to unite under AROS. And so the X1000 is another option for hobbyists to play at their hobby. How can that be bad?
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I'm guessing they'll sell 100 tops, probably half that. I've heard a lot of dyed in the wool AOS4 users balking about the price. That's a bad sign.
Its a bad sign for Trevor sure. If that happens he won't break even, which is his hope. Does it mean he was foolish to even try? I guess that depends on how much 200,000 EUR is to him and how important a dream this was for him to see this machine even made.
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Do you really even see a market for 500 machines though? Personally I think that is a stretch.
By a factor of 10...
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@AJCopland
You're assuming that the 200k investment so far includes the actual production costs. They're still working the kinks out, they may not have even done a run yet.
And you're assuming that it doesn't :) after all everyone one here is of the opinion that Euro200k is a lot for a PPC mobo _design_ so it might include production.
We don't know so we'll just have to wait and see, I just don't think it's entirely fair to disparage him until we know for sure.
Also everyone seems to be screaming about the bad value of the "developer" version which costs £1500. The fact that he's made such a distinction does seem to hint that there will be a cheaper "consumer" iteration.
Andy
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Its a bad sign for Trevor sure. If that happens he won't break even, which is his hope. Does it mean he was foolish to even try? I guess that depends on how much 200,000 EUR is to him and how important a dream this was for him to see this machine even made.
Seems pretty foolish to me. Most folks I've known who had money like that to toss around didn't get there by making stupid investments. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a computer costing over 2000 dollars running AOS 4 on yesterdays tech with an out of production processor isn't going to be profitable nor is it something that's going to "carry the platform forward".
The whole idea of "trying" doesn't impress me, all kinds of idiots try all kinds of ridiculous things and loose their shirts in the process. They're fools. The folks at A-Eon are a little bit more than fools though, -MODERATED- Their bizarre marketing scheme was designed to appeal to suckers in the community who don't know jack about hardware or software design and development. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and I can't wait to see it wrapped in a plastic bag and tossed in a compactor.
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@ mods
where's the report button? :-)
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The whole idea of "trying" doesn't impress me, all kinds of idiots try all kinds of ridiculous things and loose their shirts in the process. They're fools.
Those who try often fail but those who never try never succeed :)
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Its a hobby community jorkany. More choices within a hobby are usually beneficial, it gives people another way to explore their hobby, assuming they can afford it.
Ever hear of the guy in the desert? He is on the edge of death from lack of water. He comes to find a deserted well. There is a bottle of water at the well and a note. It's says the well has plenty of water, but in order to get the pump to work you need to prime it by poring the bottle of water into it to get it started.
So the guy is holding a bottle of water in his hand. Does he trust the note?
Drink the water or prime the pump?
Problem with drinking the water is you might feel good for a an hour our two, but then you are going to die. If he primes the pumper, maybe the note was wrong and the well is dried up in which case he dies anyway. But at least he has a chance of getting all the water he could need.
That's how I see the X1000. Hyperion has a small amount of resources. (The bottle of water). Do they take the short road and spend those resources on the X1000 knowing it might bring them temporary sells of 50 boards? Or do the prime the pump(port to X86) finally, where, once ported they are no longer anchored down to $800+ boards. They have all the cheap hardware they choose to port to.
Which is better for the community?
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Seems pretty foolish to me. Most folks I've known who had money like that to toss around didn't get there by making stupid investments.
Is it foolish to wager 10,000 USD on a single roulette bet? If you are the average person yes, for two reasons. #1 the odds were against you, #2 because you could not afford it.
Is it foolish for Bill Gates to do the same thing? Sure, #1 still applies, but if you are Bill Gates and thats what gave him some brief enjoyment labeling him "foolish" in such a circumstance is really not a accurate label.
None of us know how much 200,000 EUR is to Trevor in his world and his life. Assuming for a second he did not inherit his money one can probably be pretty safe in assuming he is either of at least decent intelligence and/or he had luck with him in life. Telling an interviewer straight up "I'll be happy if we break even" and telling them that Amiga has been an obsession in his life (he said he has over 150 in his basement if memory serves) seems to suggest he had 200,000 EUR he was willing to risk for a dream and that he is at least realistic enough to not expect a profit. Frankly I think he should expect a sizable loss. But it seems that his dream may have blinded him a bit. But so what? Its his 200,000 EUR and its his dream.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a computer costing over 2000 dollars running AOS 4 on yesterdays tech with an out of production processor isn't going to be profitable nor is it something that's going to "carry the platform forward".
It also does not take a genius to know that AmigaOS does not take the same resources to run in a snappy fashion as many other operating systems do. And it does not take much to "carry the platform forward" when the "platform" is a hobby OS for a very small group of enthusiasts. Measuring success in the way you might measure success for Windows is lunacy. Sure, some find it amusing to do so in order to troll, but its ridiculous on its face.
The whole idea of "trying" doesn't impress me, all kinds of idiots try all kinds of ridiculous things and loose their shirts in the process. They're fools. The folks at A-Eon are a little bit more than fools though, -MODERATED-.
Its their shirts to lose and without either of us knowing Trevor's finances in total we have no way of knowing if this will devastate his financial life or be a small blip, or anything in between. And on what basis do you say Trevor is a criminal (or that there is the "hint" that he is one)?
Their bizarre marketing scheme was designed to appeal to suckers in the community who don't know jack about hardware or software design and development.
I have not seen anyone suckered. It seems many that are interested want bragging rights for the most powerful AmigaOne hardware ever. If they think thats worth over 1500 GBP God Bless! Others hope their support will encourage development of 64 bit and multi-core support some day and are willing to pay a hefty premium to assist in that goal. Others heard of the video playback issues with some SAMs and want to make sure to avoid all that with better speced hardware. Some might even be speculating that this machine will become a collector's item that they could turn into a quick profit in a year or two.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven and I can't wait to see it wrapped in a plastic bag and tossed in a compactor.
How does this "stink to high heaven" and "hint of criminality" when you say they are certain to suffer a horrible loss as a business? If the goal was to rip off people they have a very poor gameplan.
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Ever hear of the guy in the desert? He is on the edge of death from lack of water. He comes to find a deserted well. There is a bottle of water at the well and a note. It's says the well has plenty of water, but in order to get the pump to work you need to prime it by poring the bottle of water into it to get it started.
So the guy is holding a bottle of water in his hand. Does he trust the note?
Drink the water or prime the pump?
Problem with drinking the water is you might feel good for a an hour our two, but then you are going to die. If he primes the pumper, maybe the note was wrong and the well is dried up in which case he dies anyway. But at least he has a chance of getting all the water he could need.
That's how I see the X1000. Hyperion has a small amount of resources. (The bottle of water). Do they take the short road and spend those resources on the X1000 knowing it might bring them temporary sells of 50 boards? Or do the prime the pump(port to X86) finally, where, once ported they are no longer anchored down to $800+ boards. They have all the cheap hardware they choose to port to.
Which is better for the community?
I'm already not anchored down to $800+ boards for this hobby, neither is the community. Its called iMica. If someone is tethered to it having to be branded "AmigaOS" to use it, well thats their problem.
I personally get a kick out of funky hardware. My used G3 Peg II was not intrinsically worth the $500 I paid for it. But I enjoy having it to play around with two hobby operating systems, MorphOS, and AOS.
Hyperion has been quite clear in its attitude that they don't give a crap about going to x86, no matter how many people ask for it. Thats their choice, its their business. If they are happier servicing folks willing to spend premiums on PPC hardware thats up to them.
What you should be asking yourself is not why Hyperion won't do what you want, but rather why does the community not en masse support the option already there for x86.
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What you should be asking yourself is not why Hyperion won't do what you want, but rather why does the community not en masse support the option already there for x86.
Good point. I myself have heard a myriad of comments from people including but not limited to: the x86 is "less fun", that it's "old technology", that Intel is somehow an evil company for producing a CPU that MS (excuse me, M$...) can put Windows on (Xbox360 is PPC powered - is it now evil, too?), down to "the number of x86 boards and hardware can't be supported", "OS4 will drown in piracy"...
not a single damn one of them makes sense but when you hit the wall of religious dogma there's no getting around it. And that's all it is, religious dogma. Not a single "no x86! Ever!" argument holds a damn bit of water. None.
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And what does A-Eon get out of your imaginary deal here?
And BTW its $245160 USD at current exchange rates. The article said 200,000 EURO.
I think we all know A-Eon has about a snowball's chance in hell to "break even" on $245160 USD (and counting). But whats the point about imagining about them giving the money away on purpose?
And why such a slave to the brand? Run AROS if you want x86.
So what was their point in investing that type of money for mobo sales in the triple digits with low triple digit sales likely?
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Its a hobby community jorkany. More choices within a hobby are usually beneficial, it gives people another way to explore their hobby, assuming they can afford it.
Sure, if your goal is for "Amiga" to transition from a group of hobby systems and into a competitive role with other computing platforms as actual working platforms then anything taking people away from AROS on any level is bad news. Realistically though people in general are entrenched and are not going to unite under AROS. And so the X1000 is another option for hobbyists to play at their hobby. How can that be bad?
Is sure not being hyped as a hobby.
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I'm already not anchored down to $800+ boards for this hobby, neither is the community. Its called iMica. If someone is tethered to it having to be branded "AmigaOS" to use it, well thats their problem.
I personally get a kick out of funky hardware. My used G3 Peg II was not intrinsically worth the $500 I paid for it. But I enjoy having it to play around with two hobby operating systems, MorphOS, and AOS.
Hyperion has been quite clear in its attitude that they don't give a crap about going to x86, no matter how many people ask for it. Thats their choice, its their business. If they are happier servicing folks willing to spend premiums on PPC hardware thats up to them.
What you should be asking yourself is not why Hyperion won't do what you want, but rather why does the community not en masse support the option already there for x86.
I hear you on AROS. I use AROS as my main alternative OS. I'm programming a couple of projects for AROS. AROS Tetris is going to blow peoples minds! ;-)
My post is referring to OS4 though. I think AROS is in good shape. Personally I think all that is said about not going to x86 for OS4 applies to MorphOS as well. Though between their current choices of OS4 using custom hardware and MorphOS reusing old MAC hardware, I think the MorphOS is a better short term solutions out of those two. However, I think they both need to move to x86.
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Though between their current choices of OS4 using custom hardware and MorphOS reusing old MAC hardware, I think the MorphOS is a better short term solutions out of those two. However, I think they both need to move to x86.
The man speaks truth.
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So what was their point in investing that type of money for mobo sales in the triple digits with low triple digit sales likely?
I think Trevor has been pretty upfront. He wants a true desktop machine that can get the brand name AmigaOne on it. If he breaks even he will be happy, if he does not at least he achieved his dream.
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Is sure not being hyped as a hobby.
How do you figure? There are no illusions to the limitations of AOS 4.x. There are no illusions about the available applications. And who is really listening but hobbyists? And even if a non-hobbyist heard of the machine none would ever spend such money. The specs and limited OS support for the machine, where the OS does not even support the hardware fully is of no use to a non-hobbyist.
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My post is referring to OS4 though. I think AROS is in good shape. Personally I think all that is said about not going to x86 for OS4 applies to MorphOS as well. Though between their current choices of OS4 using custom hardware and MorphOS reusing old MAC hardware, I think the MorphOS is a better short term solutions out of those two. However, I think they both need to move to x86.
They both "need" to move to x86 to achieve what exactly? Non-hobby OS status? There would be plenty of work required beyond the x86 porting to do for that to happen. If a company tells you to (effectively) go screw on what you want its rational to move on. Bitching and grumbling for a limited amount of time is acceptable, its called "potential customer feedback". Bitching for years and trying to undermine what that company is trying to do, even if you think its tremendously stupid only makes you look like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction". Look at it this way, AROS is progressing a lot more lately. The more people Hyperion scare away, force away, whatever the better it is for AROS.
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Thinking about it, if I was a multi-millionaire, and could afford to lose 200k without losing sleep, I would probably make a new Amiga too, just for old times sake and for the love of the old Commodore computers.
Watching the interviews with Trevor he seems like a really nice guy, and a genuine Amiga freak (how many Amigas was it he said he had, 50 or something?). Good luck to the guy, I really do hope he makes at least some of his money back on this thing.
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I think Trevor has been pretty upfront. He wants a true desktop machine that can get the brand name AmigaOne on it. If he breaks even he will be happy, if he does not at least he achieved his dream.
Well, that's a good thing. What I don't get why he even bothered with the configuration of the A1X1K since it's a white elephant at best because of multiple marketing issues. If he and his partner were going to spend that type of cash, why not on something that would generate sales of units in at least 4 digits? Lots of sales benefit everyone in the A-EON/Hyerion/OS4 community. Crap sales hurt everyone, their best dream machine comes down in flaming wreckage is going to demoralize everyone. Especially those trying to make money within the OS4 community.
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Crap sales hurt everyone, their best dream machine comes down in flaming wreckage is going to demoralize everyone.
Come now, many of the Moo Bunny regulars will squeal in delight, or at the least be pleasantly amused. You hang out there often, so you should be very aware of this.
If he and his partner were going to spend that type of cash, why not on something that would generate sales of units in at least 4 digits?
Isn't it obvious that Trevor had built what his dream of an Amiga is? Or at least the best approximation he could muster? Is there any indication that he would have rather had 1000 units sold of something that was not his dream instead of 250 of what is his dream box? I have not seen any indication of that. In fact he has mentioned SAM multiple times for the explicit reason that he considers them fulfilling the less expensive box. Its pretty obvious that he is not interested in making a $300 unit that they could sell much more of that would come in at a price point under SAM.
What I don't get why he even bothered with the configuration of the A1X1K since it's a white elephant at best because of multiple marketing issues
It appears he was partially blinded by a dream. He'll almost certainly lose money on this. What's really to get beyond that? Does Ben have a different intention? Quite possibly.
Lots of sales benefit everyone in the A-EON/Hyerion/OS4 community.
True, but that is not Trevor's responsibility, nor is it A-EON's. Its Hyperion's. If they can't encourage Acube to make the entry level $300 box then they should look elsewhere, thats assuming its even monetarily feasible. There is no guarantee someone would make back their money on such a box.
Lets look at another real world example, should Tesla Motors be looking to make an electric car more like the small hybrids of late or what they are instead making (a big 4 door sedan). Well to make money better they should be making the smaller cars. But they don't want or desire to do that. They want to be the company of "High Performance Electric Vehicles". Right now A-Eon is looking to be the "high end Amiga workstation company". Is that silly, a mistake, etc? Yep most likely. But there is no need or reason to demonize them for it either. If Trevor had not been motivated by this dream what really would the difference be for the community. Lots of folks would be bitching the SAM 460 is too expensive instead, when what they really all should probably be doing is buying an iMica (IMHO).
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The man speaks truth.
Amen, brother...
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If his main concern was sales, he could just resell Dell machines with windows and put amiga stickers on them.
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It's apparent it's Trevor's dream to build this machine. Mine, too, I guess, as I've daydreamed a time or two (truthfully more) about being rich enough to accomplish such a thing.
I'm not, but given enough months and no unexpected hurdles, I can swing owning such a machine. Another dream of mine -- one Mr. Dickinson and his partners can help make a reality for me.
Look, I'm one of those blokes who has spent way too much on maintaining and upgrading classic Amiga hardware when better bang-for-buck could be accomplished by buying stuff to run Windows, Linux or OS X. This is no different.
This expensive computer that's coming is not the only hardware that runs AOS4. And AOS4 is not the only Amiga-like OS running on PPC hardware, as there is another choice that runs on very affordable PPC hardware. And PPC hardware is not the only game in town to run an Amiga-like OS, as AROS seems to be coming along nicely of late.
And there's still software emulation, MiniMig and the promise of NatAmi, not to mention new hardware and some software for the classics.
I've said this before: Every path that any one individual wants followed is being followed by one party or another in our multifaceted community. I'm not so stubborn that I will insist that everyone follow the path *I* think best.
I'm just so very, very glad there are developments on so many fronts these days and each and every one seems on course to deliver. Maybe one of them will fail spectacularly, but maybe not. This many years after the demise of Commodore and Escom and the Gateway debacle and all that followed, there seems to be an undying will that's not going to be extinguished anytime soon.
Gonna go make a pass through the house for stuff I don't need to sell on eBay, because I'm aiming on having me an X1000. Go ahead and make fun all you want.
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@mbrantley
Well said Sir :)
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They both "need" to move to x86 to achieve what exactly? Non-hobby OS status?
To fight attrition at least. Though it would be nice to grow the community somewhat. If we had 10,000 active users across MorphOS, OS4, AROS, and OS3.x our hobby would be more interesting.
It's hard to even combat attrition though with all the barriers to entry. OS4 you have high prices. MorphOS you have to buy used hardware off ebay. AROS barriers has traditionally been finding the right hardware and lack of software. They are now winning on the software front and thanks to ClusterUK any one can get in for cheap with no work at all.
Moving to x86 just takes away many barriers. Price being one. If someone wants to rebage an X86 board and call it the X2000 they don't need to invest $200,000 to do it.
Bitching and grumbling for a limited amount of time is acceptable, its called "potential customer feedback".
The typical, "If you don't agree then shut up whiner". I'm not whining. I am discussing my hobby and it's future.
Look at it this way, AROS is progressing a lot more lately. The more people Hyperion scare away, force away, whatever the better it is for AROS.
I don't think that is true a majority of the time. As people move away from OS4 (let it gather dust) I don't think they tend to move to something else other than Windows/Linux/Mac and our community grows smaller. Same things for MorphOS and AROS. If they stop using one of those because of whatever is lacking (hardware, software, etc) they don't move to another camp they just move on.
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Seems pretty foolish to me. Most folks I've known who had money like that to toss around didn't get there by making stupid investments.
As I understand it, TrevorDick made his money in the oil industry. Once you have oil, you don't need too much business acumen, crude is a licence to print money... I hazard a guess he has a boatload.
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Ever hear of the guy in the desert? He is on the edge of death from lack of water. He comes to find a deserted well. There is a bottle of water at the well and a note. It's says the well has plenty of water, but in order to get the pump to work you need to prime it by poring the bottle of water into it to get it started.
So the guy is holding a bottle of water in his hand. Does he trust the note?
Drink the water or prime the pump?
Problem with drinking the water is you might feel good for a an hour our two, but then you are going to die. If he primes the pumper, maybe the note was wrong and the well is dried up in which case he dies anyway. But at least he has a chance of getting all the water he could need.
Never heard that parable. Its quite good.
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Come now, many of the Moo Bunny regulars will squeal in delight, or at the least be pleasantly amused. You hang out there often, so you should be very aware of this.
Yes, I do hang out there as well. But you would only know that if your a regular MooBunny as well. Some post with their regular handles, some post via anonymous proxies.
Isn't it obvious that Trevor had built what his dream of an Amiga is? Or at least the best approximation he could muster? Is there any indication that he would have rather had 1000 units sold of something that was not his dream instead of 250 of what is his dream box? I have not seen any indication of that. In fact he has mentioned SAM multiple times for the explicit reason that he considers them fulfilling the less expensive box. Its pretty obvious that he is not interested in making a $300 unit that they could sell much more of that would come in at a price point under SAM.
That's one main problems, in order to have sales of high end machines at very high end prices, there has to be demand for it. Problem is that there is no demand for it because there is no significant user base willing to pay that much out for a machine that will be under used by the intended OS. I do wonder how many OS4 Devs are going to be jumping on this, even with a major discount.
It appears he was partially blinded by a dream. He'll almost certainly lose money on this. What's really to get beyond that? Does Ben have a different intention? Quite possibly.
You left out the reason of the third partner.
True, but that is not Trevor's responsibility, nor is it A-EON's. Its Hyperion's.
Apart of being a partner is to share in the glory as well as the failures.
If they can't encourage Acube to make the entry level $300 box then they should look elsewhere, thats assuming its even monetarily feasible. There is no guarantee someone would make back their money on such a box.
They would have been far better off and offering at a far cheaper price if they had bought new but surplus Apple PPC mobos. If Apple is willing to sell them the CPUs, Apple might have been willing to license out one of their old Apple mobo designs.
Lets look at another real world example, should Tesla Motors be looking to make an electric car more like the small hybrids of late or what they are instead making (a big 4 door sedan). Well to make money better they should be making the smaller cars. But they don't want or desire to do that. They want to be the company of "High Performance Electric Vehicles". Right now A-Eon is looking to be the "high end Amiga workstation company". Is that silly, a mistake, etc? Yep most likely. But there is no need or reason to demonize them for it either. If Trevor had not been motivated by this dream what really would the difference be for the community. Lots of folks would be bitching the SAM 460 is too expensive instead, when what they really all should probably be doing is buying an iMica (IMHO).
What your missing is the shear number of drivers/car owners out there. That is a huge pool to skim a few rich people from so it's doable marketing wise. Worse yet, it would be like Tesla selling for full value but the motor will only produce half the horse power and only use half the batteries with a promise that in the future, the owner can use all the batteries to fully power the engine. And all instructions written in Aramaic. Somehow I think it would be a disaster for Telsa, don't you?
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How do you figure? There are no illusions to the limitations of AOS 4.x. There are no illusions about the available applications. And who is really listening but hobbyists? And even if a non-hobbyist heard of the machine none would ever spend such money. The specs and limited OS support for the machine, where the OS does not even support the hardware fully is of no use to a non-hobbyist.
I can agree with you it's not a serious machine for the real world, but what is with all that X hype and all the attention of outside media? Why international media if they are just for small group of OS4 hobbyist who can afford it? Answer is they are trying to go beyond the OS4 community as they desperate looking for additional sales. That's not the actions of a company producing a hobbyist machine, that's a company trying to go beyond the current hobbyist market. Please don't tell me they are trying to expand their hobbyist market with a price tag that makes their own hobbyist group faint.
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Come now, many of the Moo Bunny regulars will squeal in delight, or at the least be pleasantly amused. You hang out there often, so you should be very aware of this.
Huh? What does that have to do with the price of milk? I doubt many "would squeal with delight". I'd think the only amusement would be validitation of what appeared obvious, despite getting slammed for stating what appeared obvious. See Dammy getting blasted for suggesting the X1000 would be a developer box, about a month before A-Eon announced it would be a developer box.
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Unless of course you are referencing the idiots who post trolling nonsense using anonymous proxies on Moob. Their posts are worthless and Moob regulars usually ignore them. Most of the over the top nonsense lately is probably one individual with some sort of serious personality disorder and repressed sexuality.
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I bet he could have got AmigaOS converted to x86 for 200000 quid!
Tension, Spot on my friend. Why spend all this money in developing custom PowerPC hardware when modern x86 hardware is more than up to the task of running AmigaOS and even in emulation the old games run smoothly.
What I'd like to see - is AmigaOS x86 native. Then it would be really cool to have the UAE made to run within AmigaOS so I can keep my nostalgic stuff around with the new.
200,000 Euro would have gone a good way towards making that possible.
Queue the but we already have AROS crowd. I'd personally like to see AmigaOS 6 be native x86 and Open Source with Hyperion being the ones to control the code base.
-Nyle
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AROS needs to fork at some point into AROS classic and AROS NextGen. That is unfortunately less likely now the Anubis will no longer be hunting chickens.... A shame really.
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AROS needs to fork at some point into AROS classic and AROS NextGen. That is unfortunately less likely now the Anubis will no longer be hunting chickens.... A shame really.
AROS TNG was suppost to have been AROS64, but we know how well the idea of AROS64 breaking 3.1API went over. I think a complete rewrite will have to be done which was the late Anubis-OS project. Perhaps something new in the fall, we shall see.
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Huh? What does that have to do with the price of milk? I doubt many "would squeal with delight". I'd think the only amusement would be validitation of what appeared obvious, despite getting slammed for stating what appeared obvious. See Dammy getting blasted for suggesting the X1000 would be a developer box, about a month before A-Eon announced it would be a developer box.
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Unless of course you are referencing the idiots who post trolling nonsense using anonymous proxies on Moob. Their posts are worthless and Moob regulars usually ignore them. Most of the over the top nonsense lately is probably one individual with some sort of serious personality disorder and repressed sexuality.
A-Eon has never announced the X1000 as a developer box that I have seen. Can you show me a link? Lets speak in terms of reality ok? There is no sizeable OS 4 market. There is no meaningful money in software development for OS 4. The OS uses none of the new hardware features the board offers. A developer system for OS4, that would be something like a PPC based Beagle Board, not a 1500+GBP machine. And before you elude to the beta program meaning thats "developers" they are looking for end users to be beta testers. Sure some of them maybe know some programing by happenstance. But if jahc waits to get his X1000 until after the beta will that make the X1000s sold post-beta "developer boxes" too. Thats just plain silly. Its not logic being applied here to come up with that label. That label came from Dammy trying to put a spin on what the machine is. Hell, I agree the public beta that you have to *pay* to be in is ridiculous, but so is calling it a developer box. Again, if A-Eon called it that and I missed it, just provide a link.
And on the subject of Moo Bunny, are you really willing to think that many of the Moo Bunny regulars who post (not with proxies) are not enjoying themselves ragging on A-Eon every day? You think its not a fun game to them? The bigger and more frequent A-Eon's failures the more well received will be the news and the more ravenous to tear A-Eon apart is how things will play out there. Sure maybe Ben is an a-hole that deserves nothing less. I was not around at the time but I know he upset a ton of people. But does Trevor really deserve such from people who are supposed to be grown men. Hmm, probably not.
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Part of the Anubis problem was they took the dog head icon seriously. There needs to be some discussion on goals and destination of what TNG means and whether there is any real interest in it.
We are at an interesting point in computer development. iOS 4 is out and will soon be followed by Android Gingerbread (3.0). These are mobile device OSs, but it appears that is where we are heading. The 27 inch iMac for my wife may indeed be the last pure desktop I ever buy. Who knows what combination of tablet and laptop will be available when we're in the market for a new computer again. But the desktop box is becoming a shrinking niche in the computer world.
It feels like the '80s again, whatever tablet/notebook/other device emerges from this will forever change everything. The question for AROS is how to fit into the world that is coming.
AROS TNG was suppost to have been AROS64, but we know how well the idea of AROS64 breaking 3.1API went over. I think a complete rewrite will have to be done which was the late Anubis-OS project. Perhaps something new in the fall, we shall see.
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Tension, Spot on my friend. Why spend all this money in developing custom PowerPC hardware when modern x86 hardware is more than up to the task of running AmigaOS and even in emulation the old games run smoothly.
What I'd like to see - is AmigaOS x86 native. Then it would be really cool to have the UAE made to run within AmigaOS so I can keep my nostalgic stuff around with the new.
200,000 Euro would have gone a good way towards making that possible.
Queue the but we already have AROS crowd. I'd personally like to see AmigaOS 6 be native x86 and Open Source with Hyperion being the ones to control the code base.
-Nyle
Trevor wanted to build what he saw as a new Amiga with a custom chip of some sort. Maybe he is in the "x86 is not Amiga" camp. Just like you appear (at first glance anyway) to be in the "but AROS is not Amiga" camp. Maybe custom hardware is just something he is in to. He's hoping to break even in this *business* venture. I think thats crazy and not going to happen. But its not a business on any level to just give away 200,000 Euro to another business (Hyperion) as a gift to fund them converting the OS. And while many of us think A-Eon is going to be looking at one hell of a loss, in Trevor's mind he at least sees it being possible to make the money back.
The alternative in *reality* anyway appears to be that he not spend the 200,000 Euro at all. The question is not "would it be better if he paid for x86 conversion" because that simply is not a motivation to the man with the money. The only real question in this vein is "would it be better if he had done nothing".
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They way you write about this guy, you'd think you were closer to him than his own wife. *barf* C'mon, you don't know what's going on Trevor's head.
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To fight attrition at least. Though it would be nice to grow the community somewhat. If we had 10,000 active users across MorphOS, OS4, AROS, and OS3.x our hobby would be more interesting.
The problem is not that all three are not on x86. The problem is that there are three choices to begin with. Its what keeps us divided and what slows progress for all three choices. And lets not fool ourselves. You've admitted this in the past, some folks *like* the exclusivity of some of those options. Some people like having friends over where they ask "what's that" and they can say "its my new Amiga". Like it or not, if all three choices were on x86 we'd lose some people along the way. Sure we might gain more in the end. But we'd still have the camps. Ultimately its probably better that MorphOS and OS4 die as PPC operating systems leaving only AROS to continue on at some point.
It's hard to even combat attrition though with all the barriers to entry. OS4 you have high prices. MorphOS you have to buy used hardware off ebay. AROS barriers has traditionally been finding the right hardware and lack of software. They are now winning on the software front and thanks to ClusterUK any one can get in for cheap with no work at all.
Don't forget VM Icaros. With that there is no barrier to trying AROS at all.
Moving to x86 just takes away many barriers. Price being one. If someone wants to rebage an X86 board and call it the X2000 they don't need to invest $200,000 to do it.
So spend the energy on jazzing people up for AROS instead of harping on a company that has told you multiple times to go frack off and die.
The typical, "If you don't agree then shut up whiner". I'm not whining. I am discussing my hobby and it's future.
AOS 4.x is not your hobby. Its their hobby. Your hobby is AROS and AOS 3.x. Sure if you *really* want to use AOS 4.x, well you've said your peace hundreds of times now. They don't give a crap. And they even have said effectively they will continue to not give a crap. At that point when you continue to go on so much you look not very interested in AOS 4.x at all, and more interested in making a sport out of bitching. When a woman rejects you in a bar, do you talk about her 4 years later, or do you find someone else to pursue, someone that wants to be with you?
I don't think that is true a majority of the time. As people move away from OS4 (let it gather dust) I don't think they tend to move to something else other than Windows/Linux/Mac and our community grows smaller. Same things for MorphOS and AROS. If they stop using one of those because of whatever is lacking (hardware, software, etc) they don't move to another camp they just move on.
Its not like Hyperion is sharing code with other camps. Even if you are right its no loss on AROS or MorphOS. And I'm sure at least *some* folks are willing to try one of the other choices out. How many? Thats impossible to know.
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They way you write about this guy, you'd think you were closer to him than his own wife. *barf* C'mon, you don't know what's going on Trevor's head.
Neither do you. Yet its funny, you are the king of conjecture when it comes to them. :p
I'm commenting based on things he has said in interviews and postings. You are just in "let me make stuff up" mode. Big difference. You have been clear in your motivations to take them down a notch, what was it the other day, you can't wait to wrap the X1000 in plastic and crush it in a trash compactor? And that Trevor acts with criminality on some level?
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And on the subject of Moo Bunny, are you really willing to think that many of the Moo Bunny regulars who post (not with proxies) are not enjoying themselves ragging on A-Eon every day?
Actually, speaking as one of the regulars on the bunny the consensus is pretty much that this is all a little sad. I don't see that people are enjoying it however, as many of those same regulars are long time Amiga users who see the imminent failure of the X1000 due to it's exorbitant price, probably being the death knell of OS4.
Sure maybe Ben is an a-hole that deserves nothing less. I was not around at the time but I know he upset a ton of people.
I believe you misspelled libelled.
But does Trevor really deserve such from people who are supposed to be grown men. Hmm, probably not.
From what I've seen the view on the bunny is that they can't quite get their heads around anyone pouring so much cash into a project with no appreciable chance of success, even within the context of a hobbyist market. I see very little outside of the current proxy lovin' troll who suffers from as Red said: "Most of the over the top nonsense lately is probably one individual with some sort of serious personality disorder and repressed sexuality." as being a disparaging comment aimed at him personally.
A few have described the situation/decisions as madness. But again, it stops well short of attacking TD personally. I know it's a subtle difference, but a very important one.
I have however seen plenty of comments by yourself and other recently joined members on here and in AW.net and Amigans.net accusing moobunny regulars of this and worse.
And I'm getting tired of these baseless accusations being levelled at me and others over and over.
With regard the X1000 being a dev box or not. Didn't TD say in the launch speech that it was aimed in part at developers and beta testers, with a second wave of machines being produced for everyone else?
I note that many of the BAFs who initially pilloried Dammy are now using the developer system card as a means to justify the obscene price though.
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Yes, I do hang out there as well. But you would only know that if your a regular MooBunny as well. Some post with their regular handles, some post via anonymous proxies.
What part of the word "many" do you not understand?
That's one main problems, in order to have sales of high end machines at very high end prices, there has to be demand for it. Problem is that there is no demand for it because there is no significant user base willing to pay that much out for a machine that will be under used by the intended OS. I do wonder how many OS4 Devs are going to be jumping on this, even with a major discount.
Odds are not many. Especially considering there are hardly many OS4 Devs in the first place. That should be plain as day.
Apart of being a partner is to share in the glory as well as the failures.
Sure someone's rep can be hurt from a failure. But that still hardly gives one company the means to control the decisions of another. And beggars can't be choosers. "Hi Hyperion I want to make a PPC machine for your users!" That does not come around that often. And if Acube ever says "gosh we make no money on this" and leaves what would they have then? If Hyperion sells 50 copies to our hobbyist community its still sales. On paper Hyperion should not be even in business anymore. Somehow they have lived on almost nothing for years. They are in no position to demand that A-Eon make a $300 box instead of a 1500+ GBP one.
They would have been far better off and offering at a far cheaper price if they had bought new but surplus Apple PPC mobos. If Apple is willing to sell them the CPUs, Apple might have been willing to license out one of their old Apple mobo designs.
Why bother, just support existing PPC Macs then, like MorphOS.
What your missing is the shear number of drivers/car owners out there. That is a huge pool to skim a few rich people from so it's doable marketing wise. Worse yet, it would be like Tesla selling for full value but the motor will only produce half the horse power and only use half the batteries with a promise that in the future, the owner can use all the batteries to fully power the engine. And all instructions written in Aramaic. Somehow I think it would be a disaster for Telsa, don't you?
And yet most analysts don't view that IPO as a good bet and expect Tesla's long term chances to not be good at all. The company only exists because one guy with money wanted to make high powered luxury electric vehicles. Sure, Trevor would have been better off talking to you first and getting convinced not to waste his money. But he already did what he did. Whats the point in effectively labeling him an idiot over and over ad nasuem?
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I can agree with you it's not a serious machine for the real world, but what is with all that X hype and all the attention of outside media? Why international media if they are just for small group of OS4 hobbyist who can afford it? Answer is they are trying to go beyond the OS4 community as they desperate looking for additional sales. That's not the actions of a company producing a hobbyist machine, that's a company trying to go beyond the current hobbyist market. Please don't tell me they are trying to expand their hobbyist market with a price tag that makes their own hobbyist group faint.
What makes their own hobbyist group faint is what immediately will make true outsiders just laugh. The only people from the outside world they are going to gain are the folks who would probably be part of the OS4 community if they had already known it existed and maybe a few ultra geeks from other areas that will fit right in. Besides saying "its a new Amiga, its the most powerful Amiga hardware spec ever!, it has a custom chip, old Amigas had custom chips!" what are they saying exactly to dupe the world at large through "international media"? Where is the smoking gun of their supposed "conspiracy" to rip people off?
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What part of the word "many" do you not understand?
Possibly the same part of Citation Needed that neither you nor the recent influx of AW.net regulars understand.
You keep hurling this accusation at us. Time to back it up with some figures I think.
Whats the point in effectively labeling him an idiot over and over ad nasuem?
And here we have it folks. Knowing that he can't prove it (because as was pointed out in my previous post - the regulars stop well short of this.) He throws in that little qualifier there.
It wasn't true when you flat out accused the majority, any more than it is now you're trying to hedge your bets. Knock it off.
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A few have described the situation/decisions as madness. But again, it stops well short of attacking TD personally. I know it's a subtle difference, but a very important one.
I have however seen plenty of comments by yourself and other recently joined members on here and in AW.net and Amigans.net accusing moobunny regulars of this and worse.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this then.
With regard the X1000 being a dev box or not. Didn't TD say in the launch speech that it was aimed in part at developers and beta testers, with a second wave of machines being produced for everyone else?
I know about the beta program. I'm still unaware of them saying the beta machines are dev boxes and I'm also unaware of them saying post-beta boxes will be any different in any spec or config from beta period units. I'm certainly willing to read any link that can be provided.
I note that many of the BAFs who initially pilloried Dammy are now using the developer system card as a means to justify the obscene price though.
I have not seen this. I have seen stuff like "its expensive because its such a small production run". And I have not seen any evidence that A-Eon is taking advantage of anyone. I see on Moo Bunny often stuff like "I bet all the BAFs will be...". Usually without a link. And when there is one, its often one guy, sometimes taken out of context being quoted. News flash, DAX and meet.mrgnr are not the "voices of the people".
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And here we have it folks. Knowing that he can't prove it (because as was pointed out in my previous post - the regulars stop well short of this.) He throws in that little qualifier there.
It wasn't true when you flat out accused the majority, any more than it is now you're trying to hedge your bets. Knock it off.
I don't need to prove anything. Everyone is free to go to Moo Bunny and see the kind of crap that is posted there day in and day out. And sorry, your proxy regulars are still regulars at the site. And plenty of the non proxy users seem to be quite pleased at talking about the upcoming demise of A-EON and their stupidity in general.
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I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this then.
Actually not. You have accused me and others of making personal attacks on Trevor Dickinson's character. You will provide citation for this now as I'm sick and tired of being libelled by you.
You make the accusation, the onus is on you to prove it.
I'm still unaware of them saying the beta machines are dev boxes and I'm also unaware of them saying post-beta boxes will be any different in any spec or config from beta period units.
I suggest you re-read what I and Dammy wrote. Because no one here has said or even implied that there would be differences in the specification of the devices.
I have not seen this.
I'll bet you haven't.
Here, I'll just give you one example that I saw on this site. Note that this argument that "it wasn't aimed at us" is one I've seen a couple of folks use, including yourself earlier on in this thread, though you at least couched it as different hobbies.
The only jokes around are the people that still do not understand this machine is not aimed at Amigans at large but a small population of developers and PowerUsers (read: enthusiast with enough money or "will"). It only serves as a vehicle for the first, to evolve the platform, and it's just a first step.
And I have not seen any evidence that A-Eon is taking advantage of anyone.
And just like that you go off into the world of strawmen.
I see on Moo Bunny often stuff like "I bet all the BAFs will be...". Usually without a link. And when there is one, its often one guy, sometimes taken out of context being quoted.
Citation needed. It has been a very long time since I saw a quote that didn't have attribution either directly above or below it.
News flash, DAX and meet.mrgnr are not the "voices of the people".
But they are voices that get a whole lot of pats on the back for what they say on AW.net. Just because part of a message is quoted, it is supplied with attribution (IE a link back to the thread) which many people will read in order to get the context.
I don't need to prove anything.
When you accuse me and other regular posters of this site of doing something, you damn well better back it up.
And sorry, your proxy regulars are still regulars at the site.
There are very very few proxy regulars on moobunny. They show up for a few weeks, get bored and then don't return. The current one that Red mentioned has been there for... About a fortnight now.
And plenty of the non proxy users seem to be quite pleased at talking about the upcoming demise of A-EON and their stupidity in general.
Citation needed.
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You will provide citation for this now as I'm sick and tired of being libelled by you.
I have not accused you personally of anything. If you don't like my opinion about what is going on there then tune me out.
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I have not accused you personally of anything.
But you have, repeatedly in this thread. As a regular on Moobunny you have placed a blanket accusation on me and others without any citation whatsoever.
If you wish to show where individuals have crossed the line from stating the situation is madness to flat out defaming Trevor's character , please feel free. After all, if it is as rampant as you imply, it shouldn't take you more than a minute or two.
But either way, with respect to the TOS you will withdraw your blanket accusation now.
If you don't like my opinion about what is going on there then tune me out.
When your "opinion" includes libelling me and others without a single shred of evidence, no I don't like it and I won't put up with it from you or any other.
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Don't forget VM Icaros. With that there is no barrier to trying AROS at all.
Good example of another way to break barriers to entry. Again, I don't believe a $2000 motherboard will help OS4 brind down barriers to entry. In fact I believe wasting what is certain to be at least a year of porting to a $2000 board is destructive for Hyperion's future.
So spend the energy on jazzing people up for AROS instead of harping on a company that has told you multiple times to go frack off and die.
A-Eon? I hope they die so AOS4 can move on. Hyperion? I have never told Hyperion to die. Go to AW.net search the forums for my nick and the word "Lawsuit" . How many hundreds of posts do I have supporting Hyperion?
I don't like that Hyperion gets sucked in to this $2000 board garbage (it makes them look incompetent), and I do wish for a future AOS4 x86. So what?
AOS 4.x is not your hobby. Its their hobby. Your hobby is AROS and AOS 3.x. Sure if you *really* want to use AOS 4.x, well you've said your peace hundreds of times now. They don't give a crap. And they even have said effectively they will continue to not give a crap. At that point when you continue to go on so much you look not very interested in AOS 4.x at all, and more interested in making a sport out of bitching. When a woman rejects you in a bar, do you talk about her 4 years later, or do you find someone else to pursue, someone that wants to be with you?
It certainly is my hobby. The Amiga community is my hobby. I am an active user of Amiga68k(3.9 mostly) and AROS. I am soon likely to be using MorphOS (now the barrier to entry has gone even lower), but I still enjoy seeing the latest OS4 and checking out progress on ports etc. Yes this is my hobby.
I know a lot of peoples who hobbies are in airplanes. They read about old ones and get the latest news about new ones. Have magazine subscriptions, browese websites. Guess what? They don't own every single brand of airplane. Most of them don't own a single airplane. Still their hobby.
I don't think I have to own every brand of AmigaOS to see all of the "Amiga" as my hobby.
Its not like Hyperion is sharing code with other camps. Even if you are right its no loss on AROS or MorphOS. And I'm sure at least *some* folks are willing to try one of the other choices out. How many? Thats impossible to know.
It's not about Hyperion sharing code. It's about users sharing code. Sharing ports. Building the software database. It's about all camps growing to a point where if there was enough users to sell a piece of software, it could be sold as an "Amiga" title across AROS, MorphOS, OS4. I think we already have that a large extent.
If MorphOS ran on x86 and still kept the same 30 minute demo idea then many more people would try MorphOS. Running on modern hardware would only make it more appealing and that would translate into more sales.
Maybe the Hyperion folks will catch up someday. I think that would be great.
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But hyperion are as much to blame in the continuing saga of AOS4 as anyone else. Maybe more so, though they did eventually release something I suppose.
Lets be honest its about time < AOS3.1 and kickstart was made open source. For the money thats left in it AOS4 should probably be released to have any chance of it continuing
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But either way, with respect to the TOS you will withdraw your blanket accusation now.
I have my opinion and you have yours. If you feel I have violated the TOS of amiga.org and you have the ability to ban me for my opinion there is nothing I can do to stop you.
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I have my opinion and you have yours.
Sorry that doesn't play. You have accused me and others of defaming Trevor Dickinsons character without any evidence.
You want to provide proof that individuals have done such, then by all means have at it.
All I want is for you to withdraw this false blanket accusation.
ban me for my opinion
Strawman.
No one wants to "ban you for your opinion", but the TOS is quite clear with regard to libelling others.
From the TOS (http://www.amiga.org/index.php?pageid=posting_guidelines):
Posts of a libellous nature are not allowed.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, whether you think it right or wrong. Posting false information about an individual is not only bad form, but could become a serious problem, both for the poster, and for Amiga.org itself.
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A-Eon? I hope they die so AOS4 can move on. Hyperion? I have never told Hyperion to die. Go to AW.net search the forums for my nick and the word "Lawsuit" . How many hundreds of posts do I have supporting Hyperion?
You mis-understood me. I was refering to how Hyperion has made it clear its not interested in x86 proponents as customers at this time or in the forseeable future. There comes a point where you have said what you think is good advice so much that if you keep it up for years after the other party keeps telling you to go away where it starts to appear you may be making a sport out of keeping at it so often. And unless you can have Acube die too whats the motivation for Hyperion to go x86, given their stated mindset?
I don't like that Hyperion gets sucked in to this $2000 board garbage (it makes them look incompetent), and I do wish for a future AOS4 x86. So what?
They seem quite happy being a PPC OS. They hardly seemed to have gotten "sucked in". And the SAM is not exactly cheap either.
I know a lot of peoples who hobbies are in airplanes. They read about old ones and get the latest news about new ones. Have magazine subscriptions, browese websites. Guess what? They don't own every single brand of airplane. Most of them don't own a single airplane. Still their hobby.
Do they constantly go on for years that Airbus should build planes like Boeing? At some point it just would seem odd to do so.
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Sorry that doesn't play. You have accused me and others of defaming Trevor Dickinsons character without any evidence.
Lets see, I said:
"You think its not a fun game to them? The bigger and more frequent A-Eon's failures the more well received will be the news and the more ravenous to tear A-Eon apart is how things will play out there. Sure maybe Ben is an a-hole that deserves nothing less. I was not around at the time but I know he upset a ton of people. But does Trevor really deserve such from people who are supposed to be grown men. Hmm, probably not."
Where did I say *you* defamed his character? I have asked koafter (koft) to clarify his criminality comment. Hell I don't even know your nick on Moo.
My comment is straightfoward, does Trevor really deserve what is said there about his venture and the inferences made about its motivations, where things are said like A-Eon is treating its customers like pigs that need to be bent over etc. You don't find that sort of thing crass and unnecessary? You don't wonder at someone's motivations to speak about something as mundane as A-Eon in such a manner, so often? Maybe you are desensitized from being at Moo for years or something.
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Where did I say *you* defamed his character?
Is the English language not your first perhaps?
You have stated repeatedly in this very thread that "many moobunny regulars" have attacked Trevor's character, yet not provided a single shred of evidence to justify this claim.
As a moobunny regular I take issue with this because it infers that I and or others (many) have made comments that defame Trevor's character.
I have asked (repeatedly now) for you to justify this blanket accusation or withdraw it. I have also stated that that if you were to accuse individuals (with citation, obviously) of doing so you wouldn't have a single complaint over it.
And yet you have squirmed every which way to try to justify it.
Citations, do you have them?
My comment is straightfoward, does Trevor really deserve what is said there about his venture and the inferences made about its motivations,
Well without citations for what is actually being said of Trevor, I can't really comment on this, can I?
where things are said like A-Eon is treating its customers like pigs that need to be bent over etc.
Citation most definitely needed.
You don't find that sort of thing crass and unnecessary?
In a site where the marketplace of ideas reigns supreme, only the ones that work actually survive. I know coming from a website whose history of gross censorship this might be a hard concept to take in, but it works.
You don't wonder at someone's motivations to speak about something as mundane as A-Eon in such a manner, so often?
Yup, still waiting on those citations. As to motivations, I wonder at everyone.
Maybe you are desensitized from being at Moo for years or something.
Or maybe you could just withdraw the blanket allegation and provide specific instances aimed at specific posters, like you've been asked to.
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Trevor is smart enough to realise that pursuing Amiga as a "mainstream" product is a dead end. It's a boutique product. Custom hardware, custom software, built in small quantities for those that like things that way. What happens after X1000? Presumably X2000 in the same or higher price range and quantities. Trevor gets some return on investment, a chance of be a really big fish in a really small pond, and the satisfaction of advancing his favourite hobby. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Lets see, I said:
A-Eon is treating its customers like pigs that need to be bent over etc.
They sometimes say things about Kiwis and sheep, but pigs? ...
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If you want to twist my quote thats your business. If you want to get into a debate over the word "many" thats not going to happen.
You might view that bent over pig talk as "keeping it real" or something. I'm not talking about censoring. I talking about my impression and opinion that is formed after reading posts like that. Honest, well meaning critique is not the first thing that comes to mind when reading such.
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@persia
LOL, did you quote like that on purpose? You imply I said something there I did not.
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If you want to twist my quote thats your business. If you want to get into a debate over the word "many" thats not going to happen.
No twisting necessary. You have made a blanket accusation that you are now refusing to withdraw or provide evidence to back it up.
You might view that bent over pig talk as "keeping it real" or something.
Again, still awaiting that citation. I find it amusing that you demand proof of something that Dammy says, but when held to the same level of evidence you try linguistic gymnastics and logical fallacies.
Some folk might see that as being somewhat hypocritical.
I talking about my impression and opinion that is formed after reading posts like that.
Given the level of reading comprehension you've displayed in this thread, the obvious strawman arguments you've lobbed at anyone daring to call you out on your accusations and your unwillingness to back them up, your impressions and opinion are utterly worthless.
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No twisting necessary.
Too bad the quote does not say what you say it does. I'm not here to impress anyone. And trying for jabs about English as a second language for me and my opinion being worthless, well you have fun with that I guess. Its more mild than the pig talk at the Moo. What is your handle there BTW?
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I'm not here to impress anyone.
Something that you have singularly succeeded in achieving.
Its more mild than the pig talk at the Moo.
Repeating a lie does not make it truth.
What is your handle there BTW?
No.
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Too bad the quote does not say what you say it does. I'm not here to impress anyone. And trying for jabs about English as a second language for me and my opinion being worthless, well you have fun with that I guess. Its more mild than the pig talk at the Moo. What is your handle there BTW?
I feel like the posts between us are me usually saying how I feel about A-Eon and why personally feel it is madness. Such as this topic "Interview with T.D." I have stated my opnions on spending $200,000 on building X1000. Why I think it is a bad idea for the community as a whole and only hurts us, how I think the road map is short sighted, etc.
I feel like you never really state your feelings and opinions. I sort of feel you mostly just post that I shouldn't think those things or that I am whining for discussing these things.
Would you mind telling us your opinions? Could you explain the benefits to the Amiga community that you see in the creation of the X1000? Give your take on how this plays out as far as the future of OS4? Can you tell us how successful you think the X1000 will be in terms of sales, ROI for Trev, and how this benefits Hyperion financially? What do you think the long term road map should be?
Thanks in advance.
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I'll just state again with regard to the interview,the X1000, the amount invested my thoughts.
There is nothing wrong with having short term goals. Hope to invest something to make enough to invest in your long term goals is a valid business solution.
I fail to see how the X1000 is good short term or long term investment.
In the short term:
You are talking about Hyperion investing a years time minimum (they've already been porting for 6 months?) for very few sales. 20-50 boards?
As a short term solution I don't see how Hyperion make their money back, let alone the wasted potential of not investing their time in something more viable and that offer more short term returns.
And as a short term solution what happens to the 20-50 X1000 users? Will it be worth supporting them in future updates of AmigaOS4? Or will they be thrown to the side like Classic OS4 users with the excuse that there are just too few users to support?
As a long term solution:
X1000 doesn't makes sense either. For many of the same reasons. Can you suggest that a $2000 board will give you long term sales? If in 2012 the price drops dramatically you are left with a very outdated piece of hardware. If it costs $2000 per board to make a customer PPC board today, is there reason to suggest that in a year or two that it will become much cheaper to make a more modern custom PPC X2000?
No I just can't see this as a long term solution either.
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£200K divided by 350 machines = £571.43 per machine. Now let's say you want a 20% ROI, £40K divided by 350 machines = £114.29 per machine. So you are already at £685.72 without building a single machine. The case costs ~£100, so you are now up to close to 800 quid. The other parts, memory, hard disk, video card probably cost another £200. Somebody has to put it all together, give them maybe £50 per machine, plus another £50 at least for storage and other costs, so you are up to £1100 or so. The overhead may be far more than that, so you are likely talking about a £300 to 400 motherboard. Pricey, but within reason for such a dinky quantity...
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Something that you have singularly succeeded in achieving.
Unoriginal, but expected.
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Would you mind telling us your opinions? Could you explain the benefits to the Amiga community that you see in the creation of the X1000?
If we are going to say that "Amiga community" equates to MorphOS users, AOS users, and AROS users I suppose it could benefit us to a degree in that it made at least one mainstreamish (geek mainstream anyway) site as news. I suppose that could clue some former Amiga users into the fact that there are these current options and that a community even exists in 2010.
Give your take on how this plays out as far as the future of OS4?
I personally don't see continuing on PPC as an overall benefit to the AOS segment of the community. And hence I don't see the X-1000 as an overall benefit. In a very shortsighted way (IMO) its a benefit in the sense that since Hyperion is adamant on staying PPC and since they are a commercial enterprise the X-1000 provides the "benefit" that now Hyperion can program for 64 bit and multi-core. But again, I see that as tremendously short-sighted.
Give your take on how this plays out as far as the future of OS4?
As far as the future of OS4, I see it as dying a slow death. I see the X-1000 as not making much of any difference in that because Hyperion has been very happy staying PPC and porting to Acube hardware. The existence of the X-1000 does not seem to have had any impact on Hyperion wanting to offer a PPC based OS.
Can you tell us how successful you think the X1000 will be in terms of sales, ROI for Trev, and how this benefits Hyperion financially?
My guess would be somewhere between 100 and 1000 depending on final price of course. Since Trevor says they are in for 200,000 Euro so far I see his ROI as very poor, assuming for a second he is the source of most of the money.
What do you think the long term road map should be?
If we are talking about what I think the road map should be to have what I think would be the highest chance of success I'd say go x86. But Hyperion has been very clear about the fact that they don't care how much they hear that from folks, that they are sure PPC is the way to go and that they will not be convinced otherwise. The same valid arguments have been presented to them thousands of times at this point, maybe tens of thousands of times. Who they want to service is the folks who agree with them that PPC is the way to go. Some may believe as Hyperion does that PPC can succeed (i.e. "its in Xbox!, why not a PC"), others may just enjoy non-mainstream hardware. And yes some sadly like the exclusivity. How Hyperion survives on servicing only those folks is a damn mystery. But they have done it for years, while I might add fighting a lawsuit which also costs money. Its not up to us to dictate to them how to make their money or who their customer base should be.
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As a short term solution I don't see how Hyperion make their money back, let alone the wasted potential of not investing their time in something more viable and that offer more short term returns.
We don't know if A-Eon has paid a porting fee or not. There has been talk in the past that there was one at least at one time. That could be part of the 200,000 Euro perhaps that A-EON has spent?
And as a short term solution what happens to the 20-50 X1000 users? Will it be worth supporting them in future updates of AmigaOS4? Or will they be thrown to the side like Classic OS4 users with the excuse that there are just too few users to support?
Well I think if they abandoned X-1000 users that would be a major goodwill killer with your most loyal users of the brand. They have kept up on Peg II and that can not be such a big amount of users. I think Classic support is not something progressing as much because of the hardware at least.
If in 2012 the price drops dramatically you are left with a very outdated piece of hardware.
That depends on how you view it. If they still make new model SAMs at Acube at the same rate as they do today whatever the latest SAM is in 2012 very likely would still be below the specs of an X-1000. And the OS is in no position to support the latest hardware anyway.
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Lets see, I said:
I have asked koafter (koft) to clarify his criminality comment. Hell I don't even know your nick on Moo.
My comment is straightfoward, does Trevor really deserve what is said there about his venture and the inferences made about its motivations, where things are said like A-Eon is treating its customers like pigs that need to be bent over etc. You don't find that sort of thing crass and unnecessary? You don't wonder at someone's motivations to speak about something as mundane as A-Eon in such a manner, so often? Maybe you are desensitized from being at Moo for years or something.
Excuse me, but that comment was made here and MODERATED here, not on Moobunny.
Additionally, you seem to have a major negative infatuation about Moobunny and made accusations that Moob regulars, not proxy trolls, have leveled personal attacks against Trevor Dickinson. You are purposely making vague accusations and refuse to back it up with links. Are you trolling?
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I, myself, am baffled as to what AmigaOS users think they would bring to the X86 market.
1) an OS w/o memory protection
2) that doesn't support more than one processor core
3) with no outstanding legacy software that can't be matched or superseded by applications in other X86 OS'
4) a 32 bit OS in a market that is rapidly moving to 64 bit (and eventually to 128 bit)
5) an OS which in its multiple variations does not support modern GPU hardware like shaders
Given time, I could come up with many more flaws to this argument.
Right now, Amiga users are basically hobbyists that use an alternate OS out of personal interest. AmigaOS is not a viable competitor for Windows, OSX, and maybe not even Linux.
Personally, I hope we stay with PPC architecture. It differentiates us from the rest of the market and RISC code is easier to work with than CISC code.
I use MorphOS. I don't see the MorphOS development team supporting any other type of processors for the time being. AmigaOS is welcome competition and I hope Hyperion manages to keep it viable.
If you are so interested in an X86 alternative, use and support AROS. While the current release contains some flaws, the eventual roadmap for this AmigaOS offfshoot could make it quite an impressive system.
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I thought Gallium3d supported shaders. which would mean hopefully so does Aros. :-D
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I thought Gallium3d supported shaders. which would mean hopefully so does Aros. :-D
When that part of AROS is bug free, we will see a neat step forward in Amiga like OS development. Which is why I didn't totally discount AROS. But the current releases are way too buggy.
I have one PC with an Nvidia 7600GT video card that I have Multiple variants of AROS on.
But I use an Apple with MorphOS on it because it is stable.
And I have multiple PCs with various versions of Windows because there is software I just can't get in the Amiga community.
Right now, with OpenGL support, both AROS and MorphOS seem to offer superior 2d and 3d functions (compared to AOS3.x and AOS4.x).
But, since GPU manufactures are very tight lipped about there architectures, we have a long way to go to match Windows graphics power (which, btw, so does OSX).
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I, myself, am baffled as to what AmigaOS users think they would bring to the X86 market.
1) an OS w/o memory protection
2) that doesn't support more than one processor core
3) with no outstanding legacy software that can't be matched or superseded by applications in other X86 OS'
4) a 32 bit OS in a market that is rapidly moving to 64 bit (and eventually to 128 bit)
5) an OS which in its multiple variations does not support modern GPU hardware like shaders
Given time, I could come up with many more flaws to this argument.
Bring to the x86 market? What are you talking about? x86 is a piece of commodity hardware that we "use". Toilet paper is a commodity item. X1000 is like a pine cone. x86 is like Charmin. I don't bring anything "to" toilet paper, but there are many reason for me to "use" it over alternatives.
(Yeah yeah I know I technically bring something to toilet paper ;-) )
Oil is a commodity. So you are saying OS4 is like a Yugo. You list a huge list a deficiencies. I can lubricate it's engine with 4 bottles of Dom Perignon at $150 a bottle or I can use 4 $1.50 cans of oil which will work 100X better. I don't bring anything to "oil" by using it in my Yugo. Though my Yugo runs better with the oil and I save hundreds of dollars.
Right now, Amiga users are basically hobbyists that use an alternate OS out of personal interest. AmigaOS is not a viable competitor for Windows, OSX, and maybe not even Linux.
Again I don't follow. Amiga is an OS. Windows is an OS. Mac OSX is an OS. Linux is an OS. You are saying if we pay $800 - $2000 for a piece of hardware OS4 is no longer is an OS? If we only run on old Macs MorphOS is no longer an OS?
Personally, I hope we stay with PPC architecture. It differentiates us from the rest of the market and RISC code is easier to work with than CISC code.
How does it differentiate us? That we pay more for slower CPUs? I mean PPC hasn't been RISC for a long time, it has more instructions at this point than x86 CISC.
The Term RISC and CISC has not been used by chip designers for a long time. The chips are now classified by their architecture, rather than the "design Philosiphy". Most CPU's are now "Load-Store". The x86 has a less complex instruction set than some RISCs, and the PPC has the most complex RISC instruction set ever seen. Both CPU's share RISC/CISC features, as it's more efficient to use both concepts.
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When that part of AROS is bug free, we will see a neat step forward in Amiga like OS development. Which is why I didn't totally discount AROS. But the current releases are way too buggy.
I have one PC with an Nvidia 7600GT video card that I have Multiple variants of AROS on.
But I use an Apple with MorphOS on it because it is stable.
And I have multiple PCs with various versions of Windows because there is software I just can't get in the Amiga community.
Right now, with OpenGL support, both AROS and MorphOS seem to offer superior 2d and 3d functions (compared to AOS3.x and AOS4.x).
But, since GPU manufactures are very tight lipped about there architectures, we have a long way to go to match Windows graphics power (which, btw, so does OSX).
I wouldn't say it's bug free but it is very stable on my box. :-D
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Are you trolling?
Nope, not my intention. But you are the mod here. Perhaps this is an issue of semantics. I see what appears to me to be regular use of proxies there and changing nicks over quite a long period of time. And my comment related to asking if Trevor deserves such talk for his venture (the insinuations of shady-ness on the part of the company). If you think my perception of "many" is off thats your prerogative.
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Lots of wealthy people spend more than $200,000 on their hobbies or in pursuit of personal pleasures.If a dozen more wealthy people underwrote Amiga product or software development out of nostalgia I would cheer them.If it gives Trevor pleasure to share his Amiga hobby with others then more power to him;no one is being FORCED to buy an X-1000.If you don't want X-1000 simply buy the best SAM available for the best Amiga)S experience available now.
Amiga is not,and NEVER has been a mainstream computer OS.It was at best an excellent niche OS for the video field for a decade because of the special chipset before the government mandated switch to digital TV.Amigas were number three ,well behind Windows and Macs,and Amigas were doomed by managers who took excessive salaries and had no "love for Amiga".Amigas were also an excellent game machine that Commodore failed to keep developing.
Amiga OS has already been ported to x86;it is called Amithlon.Too bad the developers and IP owner(s) apparently refuse to allow Amithlon sales and further development.
Which I believe is a reason IP laws need reformation because using the laws to prohibit widespread use of an idea just because the originator doesn't want it used is ridiculous.The laws of patent and copyrights were supposed to ensure others didn't make profits at the expense of the inventor or writer not to ensure ideas and inventions stayed buried.
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Again I don't follow. Amiga is an OS. Windows is an OS. Mac OSX is an OS. Linux is an OS. You are saying if we pay $800 - $2000 for a piece of hardware OS4 is no longer is an OS? If we only run on old Macs MorphOS is no longer an OS?
He's saying it's not a competitor, that's true. Is that so bad that it isn't in competition? A competition it has no chance of winning? Niche players don't compete, they simply exist for the sake of the niche they fill. Far better to accept this than to true to go after the millions of people who are not and never have been waiting...
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He's saying it's not a competitor, that's true. Is that so bad that it isn't in competition? A competition it has no chance of winning? Niche players don't compete, they simply exist for the sake of the niche they fill. Far better to accept this than to true to go after the millions of people who are not and never have been waiting...
Maybe I misunderstood. It sounded like he was saying if OS4 all of a sudden ran on x86 it is then a competitor with all those other OSes.
My point was PPC or x86 makes no difference in competition with other OSes or not. In my eyes none of the Amiga camps compete with Linux, Mac, Win. I think most of us run one or more those as well. AmigaOS is just for fun on the side.
If we are not competing on PPC we are not going to be competing on x86.
In the best of times we had a couple million users. That wouldn't be blip on the OS radar these days.
Though having even 10,000+ users would give us more to talk about.
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Lots of wealthy people spend more than $200,000 on their hobbies or in pursuit of personal pleasures.If a dozen more wealthy people underwrote Amiga product or software development out of nostalgia I would cheer them.If it gives Trevor pleasure to share his Amiga hobby with others then more power to him;no one is being FORCED to buy an X-1000.If you don't want X-1000 simply buy the best SAM available for the best Amiga)S experience available now.
I think the issue is not what Trevor spends his money on, but the limited resources of the OS4 team. People that currently use it or want to use may not think it is the wisest thing to bend to the whim of a guy throwing money around when all Hyperion gets in the end for a years+ work is 50 sold copies of OS4.
This has been one of the main arguments against x86 by Hyperion and others. Not enough resources. If they port to x86 many repeatedly argued that the other versions will get neglected and features will not be added during the time they are working on the port. Namely because there are so little resources.
Yet, here we have them using those limited resources to port to something that has 0 future and 50+ sales? Don't you see the irony in those two things?
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I think the issue is not what Trevor spends his money on, but the limited resources of the OS4 team. People that currently use it or want to use may not think it is the wisest thing to bend to the whim of a guy throwing money around when all Hyperion gets in the end for a years+ work is 50 sold copies of OS4.
This has been one of the main arguments against x86 by Hyperion and others. Not enough resources. If they port to x86 many repeatedly argued that the other versions will get neglected and features will not be added during the time they are working on the port. Namely because there are so little resources.
Yet, here we have them using those limited resources to port to something that has 0 future and 50+ sales? Don't you see the irony in those two things?
I seriously doubt Hyperion is "bending to the whim" of Trevor. And Hyperion has said they believe in PPC, its not just that they think x86 conversion is "too much work" as it were. For those reasons I suspect Hyperion was thrilled that Trevor came along.
Let me ask you this, your strategies to convince Hyperion otherwise have all failed. Do you have any new ideas to get them to make the switch? My bet is that even if X-1000 flops they will just keep along with SAM. Perhaps they will break down eventually and support PPC Macs like MorphOS.
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I think the issue is not what Trevor spends his money on, but the limited resources of the OS4 team. People that currently use it or want to use may not think it is the wisest thing to bend to the whim of a guy throwing money around when all Hyperion gets in the end for a years+ work is 50 sold copies of OS4.
This has been one of the main arguments against x86 by Hyperion and others. Not enough resources. If they port to x86 many repeatedly argued that the other versions will get neglected and features will not be added during the time they are working on the port. Namely because there are so little resources.
Yet, here we have them using those limited resources to port to something that has 0 future and 50+ sales? Don't you see the irony in those two things?
Did every SAM machine vanish overnight while I wasn't looking?
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Did every SAM machine vanish overnight while I wasn't looking?
Did PPC become viable for the desktop again whilst I wasn't?
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Did PPC become viable for the desktop again whilst I wasn't?
By what definition of viable ?
We already have an amiga OS for x86.
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Did PPC become viable for the desktop again whilst I wasn't?
The point is the X-1000 is not the stumbling block to have Hyperion go x86. SAM was there before, is still there, and has a new model on the way even. And even if SAM goes they could always go PPC Mac. Hyperion is a business that has decided an odd path. And they have told people not to hold their breath on them ever changing their mind on this x86 desire.
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And Hyperion has said they believe in PPC, its not just that they think x86 conversion is "too much work" as it were. For those reasons I suspect Hyperion was thrilled that Trevor came along.
Where do you get this crap from? Rouge quite frankly said, on AWN, that he thought AOS 4 on IA32 was a good idea and the only reason it's not under consideration is because they simply don't have the resources to do it. They don't "believe" in PPC, they tied to like a ball and chain.
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Where do you get this crap from? Rouge quite frankly said, on AWN, that he thought AOS 4 on IA32 was a good idea and the only reason it's not under consideration is because they simply don't have the resources to do it.
The user "HyperionMP" at AW.net.
Just a 2 sec search and there was this one (from one year ago):
"we have taken a look at the PowerPC roadmap and there is plenty of life in it including 8 core designs under 30 W.
One of the main benefits of Amiga OS 4.1 is the fact that the geared entirely towards the PowerPC architecture as one of the very few operating systems around. Linux runs fine on PPC but it certainly is not optimised for this architecture in any way."
I'm not saying they hate x86. I am saying its not just that they are considering the effort to go x86 when sticking with PPC but also that they clearly still believe in PPC.
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The user "HyperionMP" at AW.net.
Just a 2 sec search and there was this one (from one year ago):
"we have taken a look at the PowerPC roadmap and there is plenty of life in it including 8 core designs under 30 W.
One of the main benefits of Amiga OS 4.1 is the fact that the geared entirely towards the PowerPC architecture as one of the very few operating systems around. Linux runs fine on PPC but it certainly is not optimised for this architecture in any way."
I'm not saying they hate x86. I am saying its not just that they are considering the effort to go x86 when sticking with PPC but also that they clearly still believe in PPC.
That's some selective quoting there.
What the post said was that they a) don't have the resources b) they've spent too much money on ppc c) they're afraid that if they ported to x86 folks would just steal it.
In addition to that, and the issue has been discussed to death already, a move to x86 would be prohibitively costly. So far OS 4.x has cost well over 2 M euro to develop. That's 2.75 million USD. A move to x86 would halt all existing OS 4 development (i.e. complete feature freeze) and subsequently nearly all development time would be spent on dealing with the wide variety of x86 based hardware. In essence, Amiga OS 4.x development would grind to a complete halt and all this on the fairly far-fetched notion that tens of thousands of existing x86 owners would be willing to pay for a copy of OS 4.1 rather than just downloading a copy somewhere. No thank you, we have taken a look at the PowerPC roadmap and there is plenty of life in it including 8 core designs under 30 W. One of the main benefits of Amiga OS 4.1 is the fact that the geared entirely towards the PowerPC architecture as one of the very few operating systems around. Linux runs fine on PPC but it certainly is not optimised for this architecture in any way.
The later parts are just excuses to make it look like there's a future in PPC for the platform because obviously they're not going to flat out admit they're running up against a wall. If they actually had the resources to port to IA32/AMD 64 and continue supporting the existing users, they'd do it in a heart beat.
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By what definition of viable ?
Hmm lets see:
Does PPC offer any roadmap by any current manufacturer for a general purpose PPC ISA processor that is even remotely competitive with even mid range x86?
No. Everything is being aimed at specialist markets - either high performance highly specialised stuff like Cell and Xenon for consoles, or SoC's based on the 603/604 that have been married up to any number of weird and wonderful kit.
The PA6T is currently the fastest PPC available, costs £450 (according to TD) and can barely compete with dual core x86 cpus that cost a tenth of that. Oh and there is nothing on the horizon that'll be coming out to top it due to lack of demand in the markets that PPC still exist in.
We already have an amiga OS for x86.
I'd be a bit careful saying that too loudly or too often ;)
The user "HyperionMP" at AW.net.
Just a 2 sec search and there was this one (from one year ago):
"we have taken a look at the PowerPC roadmap and there is plenty of life in it including 8 core designs under 30 W.
First off: Citation needed. Both for where this claim came from and the claim itself.
HyperionMP, aka Ben Hermans, not exactly a tech guy or known for his honesty.
You will not find any such chip currently on any manufacturers books. I doubt very much any such chip existed even on tape. The PA6T offered the theoretical option of tying (IIRC) 4 or 6, but no one has ever, or will ever produce such a chip. PA Semi currently only work on ARM for Apple.
But even if by some miracle Ben was actually telling the truth. An 8 core chip just means 7 cores of wasted wafer as far as OS4 goes.
One of the main benefits of Amiga OS 4.1 is the fact that the geared entirely towards the PowerPC architecture as one of the very few operating systems around. Linux runs fine on PPC but it certainly is not optimised for this architecture in any way."[/I]
OS4.x is coded in C. C is portable. And being geared entirely toward a dead end arch is in no way a benefit.
I'm not saying they hate x86. I am saying its not just that they are considering the effort to go x86 when sticking with PPC but also that they clearly still believe in PPC.
Some people believed Tony Blair and George Bush were smart, honest decent people too. Delusion is kinda cute like that.
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Rouge
:lol:
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That's some selective quoting there.
The later parts are just excuses to make it look like there's a future in PPC for the platform because obviously they're not going to flat out admit they're running up against a wall. If they actually had the resources to port to IA32/AMD 64 and continue supporting the existing users, they'd do it in a heart beat.
Thats a perception issue. You perceive they are lying at the end with "just excuses". You said that I was talking crap as if they never uttered such talk, but I was right, they did. So on that you are not really making any kind of point.
Personally I don't see them lying per-se at the end of that post with "just excuses". I tend to believe more that they have somehow convinced themselves that what they are saying makes sense, even though it does not in real world terms and even though they should know better.
Again, they state it as a reason they want to stay PPC and all I said was that according to Hyperion the reason is not just because it will "take too much work" to go x86. Whether someone choose to believe them on that or not is an entirely different issue.
As a for instance I personally find the claim of the money spent so far (as of June 2009) more likely to be BS if anything on the "HyperionMP list of reasons not to go x86"
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Words.
Comparing the quote of a lawyer and noted liar to that of a developer, you know, someone who actually has half a clue as to what is going on really is a stretch, even for you.
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Thats a perception issue. You perceive they are lying at the end with "just excuses". You said that I was talking crap as if they never uttered such talk, but I was right, they did. So on that you are not really making any kind of point.
Personally I don't see them lying per-se at the end of that post with "just excuses". I tend to believe more that they have somehow convinced themselves that what they are saying makes sense, even though it does not in real world terms and even though they should know better.
Again, they state it as a reason they want to stay PPC and all I said was that according to Hyperion the reason is not just because it will "take too much work" to go x86. Whether someone choose to believe them on that or not is an entirely different issue.
As a for instance I personally find the claim of the money spent so far (as of June 2009) more likely to be BS if anything on the "HyperionMP list of reasons not to go x86"
You have HyperionMP saying one thing, and Rouge saying another. I'll take what Rouge has to say as being more important than who ever the hell HyperionMP is considering Rouge is actually involved in the development. It's a shame that on more than one occasion moderators at AWN have moderated his posts covering up for Hyperion. When Rouge posts drunk on the site and roasts a user over the coals, y'all should just let to post stand.
The main point HyperionMP made was that they don't have the resources. The justified sticking to PPC by making up weak sauce. In reality, they're sticking to PPC because that's their ball and chain.
Also, I never said you were "talking crap", go back an reread the post I wrote. I asked, "where do you get this crap from", in other words, what on earth leads you to these conclusions.
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You will not find any such chip currently on any manufacturers books.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=P4080
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http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=P4080
I stand corrected.
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First off: Citation needed. Both for where this claim came from and the claim itself.
You'd have to talk to HyperionMP about him backing up his claim on the roadmap. I am merely saying Hyperion has said they believe in PPC, which clearly they have indicated. If you think thats silly (I do as well) or a lie (I doubt, maybe you don't) is another issue entirely. One you could take up with HyperionMP I suppose, if you cared to.
HyperionMP, aka Ben Hermans, not exactly a tech guy or known for his honesty.
Be that as it may, Amigaheretic eats up Ben's claim of resources being one issue. I have merely listed another issue mentioned by the same exact source. What parts someone chooses to believe from a "guy... (not) known for his honesty" is up to each person. Either way, Hyperion seems quite set in stone with this decision, no matter what the reals, real, imagined, or made-up
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You'd have to talk to HyperionMP about him backing up his claim on the roadmap.
Nono, you misunderstand. I'm asking you for a link back to where this was said.
You bitched quite a bit yesterday about how some folk on moobunny quote things out of context without any citation. Yet here you are apparently doing exactly the same.
I'm just expecting you to live up to the standard you demand from others.
As to the roadmap, mongo has supplied that.
Be that as it may, Amigaheretic eats up Ben's claim of resources being one issue. I have merely listed another issue mentioned by the same exact source. What parts someone chooses to believe from a "guy... (not) known for his honesty" is up to each person. Either way, Hyperion seems quite set in stone with this decision, no matter what the reals, real, imagined, or made-up
I take the view that a noted liar is always lying unless they back up what they say with evidence.
Btw, the prices for the e500mc, as pointed out by mongo are ~$350 each per tray of 100 - only 2 3rds of the cost of the PA6T and I would imagine far more interesting from the perspective of geeks and devs from outside the Amiga scene than the latter. And they have a follow on chip in the works according to wikipedia.
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The justified sticking to PPC by making up weak sauce. In reality, they're sticking to PPC because that's their ball and chain.
Considering they probably hardly make any money I find it hard to believe they don't believe in at least some of what they say. Is that delusional? Sure. But after all whats the difference between porting to x86 for almost no money vs. to just another PPC board for almost no money?
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Considering they probably hardly make any money I find it hard to believe they don't believe in at least some of what they say. Is that delusional? Sure. But after all whats the difference between porting to x86 for almost no money vs. to just another PPC board for almost no money?
Power over the users, stroking their own egos, not having to admit that they were wrong from the start to go with PPC?
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Considering they probably hardly make any money I find it hard to believe they don't believe in at least some of what they say. Is that delusional? Sure. But after all whats the difference between porting to x86 for almost no money vs. to just another PPC board for almost no money?
Dude, if AOS 4 was ported to IA32/AMD64 and they offered three models: a) budget b) midrange c) fancy, every AOS 4 fan boy would buy one the next day. And they wouldn't have to support every thing under the sun, just the crap they stuff in their boxes and they could solve the security problem with a cheap ass usb dongle. There would be plenty of profit and they'd suck in users from the other camps not to mention old timers and folks into esoteric stuff. The problem is, they're incompetent and running on fumes.
They've run into some money and they're blowing it on a last hurrah to net perhaps 100 users for a new platform that uses a chip that's obsolete and out of production. I look forward to seeing that ship burn and sink to the bottom of the ocean.
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USB dongles would fall off every time you picked up the machine. Desktop units are dead, nobody buys them anymore.
Dude, if AOS 4 was ported to IA32/AMD64 and they offered three models: a) budget b) midrange c) fancy, every AOS 4 fan boy would buy one the next day. And they wouldn't have to support every thing under the sun, just the crap they stuff in their boxes and they could solve the security problem with a cheap ass usb dongle. There would be plenty of profit and they'd suck in users from the other camps not to mention old timers and folks into esoteric stuff. The problem is, they're incompetent and running on fumes.
They've run into some money and they're blowing it on a last hurrah to net perhaps 100 users for a new platform that uses a chip that's obsolete and out of production. I look forward to seeing that ship burn and sink to the bottom of the ocean.
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It's a shame that on more than one occasion moderators at AWN have moderated his posts covering up for Hyperion. When Rouge posts drunk on the site and roasts a user over the coals, y'all should just let to post stand.
Which mods? Which posts? Do you think we have conspiracy meetings in the mod forums? I would suspect if something was removed it was removed for the content being inappropriate for the site. If someone wanted to hide something they'd delete entire posts and/or threads no?
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They've run into some money and they're blowing it on a last hurrah to net perhaps 100 users for a new platform that uses a chip that's obsolete and out of production. I look forward to seeing that ship burn and sink to the bottom of the ocean.
You make it sound as if Trevor gifted them a ton of money to do whatever they would want with it. I have seen no evidence of that.
The problem is, they're incompetent and running on fumes.
Well you may still be in for a long wait to see the "ship burn and sink to the bottom of the ocean". They've ran on no visible income of real substance for years now.
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...not having to admit that they were wrong from the start to go with PPC?
I often think this is a bit of an irrelevant point these days. I don't see either OS4 or MorphOS jumping to x86 any time soon. Technical issues aside, how would they compete with AROS?
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They could easily compete against AROS, Karlos. A professionally supported OS could move much faster and capture more users than an Open Sourced OS does, at least, in theory.
Two cents...
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They could easily compete against AROS, Karlos. A professionally supported OS could move much faster and capture more users than an Open Sourced OS does, at least, in theory.
Two cents...
these two things are NOT mutually exclusive.
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Eh, there's no exclusivity in my statement, runequester. :)
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Technical issues aside, how would they compete with AROS?
I don't see Linux overtaking either OSX or Windows any time soon, do you?
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Which mods? Which posts? Do you think we have conspiracy meetings in the mod forums? I would suspect if something was removed it was removed for the content being inappropriate for the site. If someone wanted to hide something they'd delete entire posts and/or threads no?
You say that like AW.net hasn't got a long and well documented history of doing just that.
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Which mods? Which posts? Do you think we have conspiracy meetings in the mod forums? I would suspect if something was removed it was removed for the content being inappropriate for the site. If someone wanted to hide something they'd delete entire posts and/or threads no?
I do. I have had my threads "disappeared" quicker than an American hiker accidentally crossing the North Korean border.
It's really nice when you get an abuse report message that has the link to your "supposed" violating post only to click on it and see your thread is gone.
When PMing a mod that is exactly what you get, "We moved it to the mod area and are discussing it." Only for it never to be seen again.
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You say that like AW.net hasn't got a long and well documented history of doing just that.
No I say it asking for any recent examples of that because I am unaware of what he says occurring. I only joined the site in 2005 and there were long periods I was not on it. I may of missed something. Or maybe he is talking about things that happened long ago? No idea really. If a conspiracy exists to make Hyperion "not look bad" its not being discussed in the mods forums, thats for sure. And if that conspiracy exists why are there plenty of posts up with Rogue being "not in friendly marketing customer service" mode?
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A few months ago Rogue said something nasty to someone and somebody moderated it, and that's not the first time it's happened. And by moderated I mean the whole text was just modified to just *moderated*, you're a mod over there, go dig through rogue's posting history, you'll see it. As a user, I have no good way to dig through posts other than going to google and typing in "site:amigaworld.net 'some string to search for'", hell, you've admitted on the forum that you look at people's IP addresses and look for matches on the moo, so you've got the capability to poke around. No point in denying things here.
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No I say it asking for any recent examples of that because I am unaware of what he says occurring.
Oh you're unaware... Right, got it.
Or maybe he is talking about things that happened long ago? No idea really.
No this happens on a pretty much weekly basis. Check out moobunnys archives. You'll find no end of links to threads that go nowhere. It's not nearly as bad as it was, but that really isn't saying much.
I don't know what kind of access you have to the back end of AW.net so I can't really comment on what you may or may not find should you look.
The truth of the matter is however, that this is an ongoing issue that has been there since the inception.
And if that conspiracy exists why are there plenty of posts up with Rogue being "not in friendly marketing customer service" mode?
And how many of those threads disappear after a few days?
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I do. I have had my threads "disappeared" quicker than an American hiker accidentally crossing the North Korean border.
It's really nice when you get an abuse report message that has the link to your "supposed" violating post only to click on it and see your thread is gone.
When PMing a mod that is exactly what you get, "We moved it to the mod area and are discussing it." Only for it never to be seen again.
You've started tons of controversial threads at AW.net without them being removed. Anyone coming to the site from outside the community is not likely to get a super rosy feeling about Hyperion. It would take years to read all the negative posts that exist about Hyperion on the site. If a thread got pulled (its very very rare) then ask why it never came back.
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A few months ago Rogue said something nasty to someone and somebody moderated it, and that's not the first time it's happened. And by moderated I mean the whole text was just modified to just *moderated*, you're a mod over there, go dig through rogue's posting history, you'll see it. As a user, I have no good way to dig through posts other than going to google and typing in "site:amigaworld.net 'some string to search for'", hell, you've admitted on the forum that you look at people's IP addresses and look for matches on the moo, so you've got the capability to poke around. No point in denying things here.
As a user, sure you do, its the same one I use:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/search.php
Denying what BTW?
The only mod I have seen do *moderated* is zerohero. But since when do we not remove nasty attacks? Why should Rogue be the only one we leave up? I'd agree he should state the reason in the moderation, that is customary. But he has done the "*moderated* thing on others besides Rogue. Maybe he was busy or pissed in having to deal with it. You'd have to ask him.
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Oh you're unaware... Right, got it.
Well no one one in the mod forums is ever there going "we have to protect Hyperion" or anything remotely like that. Mocking my honest answer is not going to make what you think is going on true. Or perhaps its just what you want others to think is going on?
No this happens on a pretty much weekly basis. Check out moobunnys archives. You'll find no end of links to threads that go nowhere. It's not nearly as bad as it was, but that really isn't saying much.
Threads just up and disappearing with no explanation? If that was really happening with such frequency it would not just be talk at Moo, it would be talk at AW.net directly amongest users going WTF!
And how many of those threads disappear after a few days?
Since from what I see hardly any threads go into the trash can I'd have to answer almost none. And as Amigaheretic already mentioned in his case, on the rare occasion that something goes that route usually a message goes up about "pending staff discussion".
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This was one of the best threads on Moo a month or 2 ago.
AW mod Alkis Tsapanidis had blatantly and unfoundedly called a user a liar in an AW thread. When the accused proved him wrong he admitted it in a post in the same thread. A Moo poster quipped that some one should grab a screen shot before the thread was deleted.
Alkis post in response on Moo, "No, those posts won't be deleted. I admitted I was wrong, there's nothing to hide."
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/171127.shtml
Shortly and hilariously after he made that post the thread was of course deleted and magically is still missing:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31424&forum=7
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I don't see Linux overtaking either OSX or Windows any time soon, do you?
Depending on the area you are looking at, it already has (in HPC, for example, linux is so far past the post, barely anybody else gets a look in. Just check out the top 500 by OS).
However, you simply cannot compare linux v windows/osx, each of which has literally many millions of home and business users with this situation. You are talking several orders of magnitude fewer users on amiga for a start, let alone "next gen" amiga systems.
If OS4/MOS moved to x86, they'd be up against all the challenges that AROS has faced during it's development. Only by then, AROS itself will likely have overcome some of them.
So, who in their right mind would pay for an x86 version of OS4/MOS when they could get a free OS (which would by then be the more capable system on the target hardware)? Nobody but the most die-hard users in each camp, which probably runs into dozens each.
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Depending on the area you are looking at, it already has (in HPC, for example, linux is so far past the post, barely anybody else gets a look in. Just check out the top 500 by OS).
However, you simply cannot compare linux v windows/osx, each of which has literally many millions of home and business users with this situation. You are talking several orders of magnitude fewer users on amiga for a start, let alone "next gen" amiga systems.
If OS4/MOS moved to x86, they'd be up against all the challenges that AROS has faced during it's development. Only by then, AROS itself will likely have overcome some of them.
So, who in their right mind would pay for an x86 version of OS4/MOS when they could get a free OS (which would by then be the more capable system on the target hardware)? Nobody but the most die-hard users in each camp, which probably runs into dozens each.
But Aros' code is apl'd so all the technical advances it makes could be used by Morphos and AOS.
So they would gain Aros' advances plus have the advantage of having many features that are more mature then Aros.
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This was one of the best threads on Moo a month or 2 ago.
AW mod Alkis Tsapanidis had blatantly and unfoundedly called a user a liar in an AW thread. When the accused proved him wrong he admitted it in a post in the same thread. A Moo poster quipped that some one should grab a screen shot before the thread was deleted.
If I remember this one correctly (it was back in April) Alkis was very sure that when someone was banned you could change your avatar and he thought someone who was saying otherwise was full of it saying it was not possible. To his credit he checked it out afterwards to be sure, saw he was wrong, manned up and admitted it on the Moo. He took responsibility for his mistake.
Now its an interesting slight of hand you seem to be attempting here, because the thread's removal had nothing to do with that exchange. It had to do with the overall content of the thread which was IIRC about avatars made to look a penis, it might have even been animated, using part of a design element from the A-Eon website with embellishments. AW.net is a privately owned family website and the decision, which you are free to disagree with had to do with that content. It had nothing to do with a "cover-up" to "protect" Alkis. If Alkis wanted that he would not be admitting his mistake on the Moo, now would he?
This is your example of threads disappearing as easily as an American hiker crossing into North Korea, or what someone else said was still a weekly occurence at the site? Meh.
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I don't see Linux overtaking either OSX or Windows any time soon, do you?
There's 160.000 Android phones being sold per day that disagree with you