Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: Karlos on June 21, 2010, 11:57:07 PM
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It seems that the X1000 announcement has sent the forum into a timewarp backwards to 2003 or so. I've not seen so much amiga "sectarianism" for a long time.
So, the X1000. It's going to be expensive. We all pretty much understand that. What I don't quite get is why this seems to be such a catalyst for the old Red v Blue nonsense.
The only people that the X1000 was ever going to appeal to is people in the "Red" camp. I strongly doubt anybody in either the "Blue" or "Black" camp would ever buy it, not at any price. The obvious reason being that one's choice of OS dictates pretty much what you can use hardware wise. If you are a MorphOS guy, you are going to get a Peg, Efika or more likely a Mac of some description. End of story, really. Likewise, if you are an AROS guy you're going to choose whatever x86 based kit works for you.
So why all the angst of the X1000, it's price, performance? Personally I like 3.x and it's gang of unruly offspring. I probably use OS4 most of all the "next gen" stuff, but I'm considering a ppc mac at some point so that I can fiddle around with a more up to date MorphOS too.
But that's me. Many others are quite singular in their preference. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. However, if I were predisposed to just one of them, I really would not give a rats rectum about what any of the others are up to. Why would I?
Am I alone in wondering what all this recent nonsense is about?
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I've not seen so much amiga "sectarianism" for a long time.
Karlos, I use Amiga emulation and MorphOS (plus I've played around with AROS and may dedicate another system to it as it matures). I too do not understand the unnecessary divisions between Amiga related camps.
When I make a positive comment or suggestion, frequently I get negative feedback.
When I make a critical comment or suggest a change, I'm often personally attacked.
If I didn't already know that many of the people I'm dealing with are sharp, intelligent individuals with interests similar to mine, I'd be really offended by some of the rude treatment I've received lately.
And its not just OS4, AROS or MorphOS, original Amiga users and Natami fanatics have been just as rabid.
Considering the similarities between systems and their common point of origin, you'd think we'd be more unified.
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Maybe it's fear? If one of the solutions gets really popular some might feel it would hurt their choice if it's not the popular one. This is not the case though. I'm glad that today's world of Next Gen Amiga is very different then the Commodore days. When Commodore died we were screwed. Only Commodore made Amiga’s so their death put a time bomb in the Amiga market. Now diversification gives us freedom of choice and encourages healthy competition. This will drive innovation and help everyone in the long run. The Next Gen's will probably never be the most used operating systems in the world unless Quantum Computers are perfected on Amiga OS 4.x, AROS or MorphOS but a nice market of 10,000 or even 100,000 users can be achieved.
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What's not to understand? This happens almost everywhere in everyday life.
Mac & PC
Democrat & Republican
Ford & Chevy
etc..
People stand by what they believe in.
Or are you just stirring the pot?
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people fighting over nothing is always stupid.
if this system fits your needs, get it. if it doesn't, find something else
it's that simple
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I think it is human nature to compare things, for better or for worse. I wonder if things were calmer since it was relatively slow for a long time. Now we have some news out of all options and the chest beating begins again.
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I will say it is better to be discussing a high priced PA6T system compared to older, cheaper G4 power macs than to be talking about lawsuits, IP legal questions and lack of hardware options at all except a few completely underwhelming options (see Efika and used hardware like discontinued, somewhat flakey products).
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Maybe it's fear? If one of the solutions gets really popular some might feel it would hurt their choice if it's not the popular one. This is not the case though. I'm glad that today's world of Next Gen Amiga is very different then the Commodore days. When Commodore died we were screwed. Only Commodore made Amiga’s so their death put a time bomb in the Amiga market. Now diversification gives us freedom of choice and encourages healthy competition. This will drive innovation and help everyone in the long run. The Next Gen's will probably never be the most used operating systems in the world unless Quantum Computers are perfected on Amiga OS 4.x, AROS or MorphOS but a nice market of 10,00 or even 100,000 users can be achieved.
I could agree with Part of this, I don,t think fear is a likely cause though.
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I think it is human nature to compare things, for better or for worse. I wonder if things were calmer since it was relatively slow for a long time. Now we have some news out of all options and the chest beating begins again.
Comparing is fine, ranting and flaming away over something you wouldn't have bought even if it came complete with "sex and free beer" seems a bit stupid.
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Comparing is fine, ranting and flaming away over something you wouldn't have bought even if it came complete with "sex and free beer" seems a bit stupid.
I agree, I am just thinking it does indeed happen everywhere. It is probably human nature. Even Zune owners wanted to claim their product was superior to iPods.
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I dunno, I just thought the real hot-heads had all upped sticks years ago for their own platform-of-choice-only forum ideas of utopia.
I'm happy that there's some activity, it's just that it's all seems so unduly negative.
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Amiga.org has already used over 51 GB of bandwith this month alone so it's a very active and lively community here.
:)
I don't know about other foums.
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I dunno, I just thought the real hot-heads had all upped sticks years ago for their own platform-of-choice-only forum ideas of utopia.
I'm happy that there's some activity, it's just that it's all seems so unduly negative.
Granted I am not reading every thread on every message board, but I have not seen anything near as nasty as ~2002-2005. That was an ugly, ugly time.
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It seems that the X1000 announcement has sent the forum into a timewarp backwards to 2003 or so. I've not seen so much amiga "sectarianism" for a long time.
So, the X1000. It's going to be expensive. We all pretty much understand that. What I don't quite get is why this seems to be such a catalyst for the old Red v Blue nonsense.
The only people that the X1000 was ever going to appeal to is people in the "Red" camp. I strongly doubt anybody in either the "Blue" or "Black" camp would ever buy it, not at any price. The obvious reason being that one's choice of OS dictates pretty much what you can use hardware wise. If you are a MorphOS guy, you are going to get a Peg, Efika or more likely a Mac of some description. End of story, really. Likewise, if you are an AROS guy you're going to choose whatever x86 based kit works for you.
So why all the angst of the X1000, it's price, performance? Personally I like 3.x and it's gang of unruly offspring. I probably use OS4 most of all the "next gen" stuff, but I'm considering a ppc mac at some point so that I can fiddle around with a more up to date MorphOS too.
I reckon it's green-envy and bewilderment in equal measures ;)
I think even the most harden MorphOS/AROS 'supporters' would swap to OS4 if (big if) things on the red side were attractive enough to them.
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Granted I am not reading every thread on every message board, but I have not seen anything near as nasty as ~2002-2005. That was an ugly, ugly time.
Yeah, I remember. I signed up just as it all kicked off.
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The only people that the X1000 was ever going to appeal to is people in the "Red" camp. I strongly doubt anybody in either the "Blue" or "Black" camp would ever buy it, not at any price.
Not necessarily. Since the PA6T is a nice processor I could consider a purchase (given the hardware were rather bug free) even while OS4 is not my favorite Amigaish OS if the price was attractive. Indeed chances are pretty low (not only because of the product, but also for other reasons) to motivate a purchase by me, but the chances were not NULL. For a price above 800 EUR they are NULL indeed - at least as long as only OS4 & Linux run on it.
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I dunno, I just thought the real hot-heads had all upped sticks years ago for their own platform-of-choice-only forum ideas of utopia.
I'm happy that there's some activity, it's just that it's all seems so unduly negative.
For me, it's a price<>performance kind of thing. I find that the specs, hype and final cost (seemingly TBD) of this product are at odds with each other, which should be quite common for those of us in 'this' camp.
I do agree that there's a lot of negativity - which is only good constructively if the people behind the product actually care, listen to and consider the ramifications of such feedback. Especially in a forum such as this, for a platform based on the very reason ALL of us are here in the first place.
I will be choking out loud if this thing finally clocks in around $2300-$3k though. Totally preposterous price points. Wash. Rinse. Fail. Repeat.
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What I don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. EVERYONE should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.
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Naturally, as another Ebayer, I agree most with Red.
We're not growing our market through this divisiveness.
And the pricing is prohibitive. However, if Aeon succeeds, there's nothing stopping someone else from designing lower cost boards with say a Freescale 8641D or an Applied Micro Titan cored PPC.
And I'm not jealous. If the X1000 turns out to be that good, MorphOS could be ported to it just as easily as AOS 4.1.
And, if the PA6T is only about as powerful as a G5, well we can always port MorphOS to the G5 Powermacs.
And, besides, I'd have no problem running AOS 4.1.
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What I don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. EVERYONE should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.
+1 and exactly. Too bad these people can't grasp the concept that cell phone companies got back in the late 90's. Use that as a model, just for a sec. M$ did and look what happened. But back to cell phones... talk about a frivolous product that MOST people do NOT need, yet WANT and make it their life long ambition to own and use.
"For the masses, not the classes".... :laughing:
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what i don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. Everyone should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.
qfmft +2
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What I don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. EVERYONE should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.
They watched, "Field of Dreams" and adopted it as their business model. I have no clue on what they are thinking by introducing a high end system that the OS can't fully use in the worst economy in a generation, maybe in two generations. Throw in a cult attitude plus very weak marketing capabilities and you have a makings of a great full blown disaster.
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I'm quite fine with Uae and Aros thanks, you want to spend a couple grand on a souped up a4000 or a custom board built by whoever thats fine.
I think we have some great options for getting into "Amigas" however you define that. and I think thats great. Whether you want to stick with classic hardware, or minimig, or emulation or os4, aros, or morphos.
The negativity is annoying sometimes but this is definitely a vibrant and dynamic hobby. So far I don't think it has split the community. We've had red, blue, black and whatever for years here on amiga.org and flamewars aside its been ok.
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At least there's multiple options. I just want to have fun with amiga's.
The whole infighting is rather sad though.
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When I make a positive comment or suggestion, frequently I get negative feedback.
When I make a critical comment or suggest a change, I'm often personally attacked.
If I didn't already know that many of the people I'm dealing with are sharp, intelligent individuals with interests similar to mine, I'd be really offended by some of the rude treatment I've received lately.
And its not just OS4, AROS or MorphOS, original Amiga users and Natami fanatics have been just as rabid.
Considering the similarities between systems and their common point of origin, you'd think we'd be more unified.
+1
I wholeheartedly agree. This is the problem with even posting on this site. It's just not healthy anymore. I've always supported every flavor out there, but the recent developments in the past couple of years, with the lawsuits, Moana, the X1000 and such have made the zealots come out in a fevered fury.
You can't say *ANYTHING* about one of the Amiga "flavors", be it positive or negative, without someone getting all butt hurt about it.
I once again go back to my comment about "bitter siblings". All the BS from the past decade or so have made me wish that no investor had given Bill McEwen the time of day and the Amiga IP languished in a vault deep within the bowels of the Gateway "empire". :(
[EDIT] - Another thing that's annoying me is the fact that once someone has achieved "butt hurt status", they cry that the Mods aren't "doing their jobs" for being "butt hurt" in the first place, when nine times out of ten, they instigated it. Personally, I like the *LACK* of moderation around here, since Pyro took over. We're not seeing threads closed every other day, 'cos it just gets so out of hand, with the personal attacks and insults.
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I have no clue on what they are thinking by introducing a high end system that the OS can't fully use in the worst economy in a generation, maybe in two generations. Throw in a cult attitude plus very weak marketing capabilities and you have a makings of a great full blown disaster.
*ZING*!
I couldn't agree more.
It goes both ways, but at least the MorphOS team and the AROS team aren't trying to bleed every penny they can from a "pathetic market base".
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Comparing is fine, ranting and flaming away over something you wouldn't have bought even if it came complete with "sex and free beer" seems a bit stupid.
See, it looks like you have to pay for the sex :lol:
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Speaking for myself, it's about growing the user-base. It will always be about that. When the base is big enough, then they can experiment with something like the X1000. But going for such a machine now, without bringing a lot of users back is like building the roof before you've even laid the foundation. THAT's what I don't get. :)
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I love amiga, Since I was so young banging away on an amiga 500. Now, years later in fact I still really love all amigoid systems. Used aros, built dedicated emulation pc's for running os3.x... Rebuilt an amiga 1200...built an amithlon machine,Getting an emac to try morphos... Always eagerly reading news of anything amiga.. Even after all these amiga things that I do or have done...getting a machine to run amiga os4.x is just out of the question for me financially though, even at sam prices, let alone x1000.
Sometimes I think about that and think total failure. What I mean is if they are pricing amiga os 4.x hardware so high that even me, a really big amiga fan can't afford to get one or justify the expense since the hardware is so dated and slow...then what hope do they have of selling to new groups of geeks?
Want to see a HUGE userbase for amiga os again?
X86 it. Limit the supported hardware to a few specific network/video and sound cards. Do that yesterday, make it dual boot with windows, and sell thousands of copies for 50$ each. Watch your userbase skyrocket while
your making money. Make your innovative software BE the new custom chips you crave so much, and stop worrying about hardware.
Steven
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I put it down to jealousy, if a new development occurs in one "camp" the opposing camp has to shoot holes through it to justify their position.
I wouldve thought any new development in Amiga-Amigaish technology (regardless of which camp) would be better than complete stagnation.
Perhaps people are so myopic they just cant see the bigger picture.
It's fascinating, in a morbid way.
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Want to see a HUGE userbase for amiga os again?
X86 it. Limit the supported hardware to a few specific network/video and sound cards. Do that yesterday, make it dual boot with windows, and sell thousands of copies for 50$ each. Watch your userbase skyrocket while
your making money. Make your innovative software BE the new custom chips you crave so much, and stop worrying about hardware.
Who would buy these hypothetical thousands of copies? AmigaOS does not have enough compelling features to make up for its many shortcomings for people who are used to mainstream OS's.
Returning ex-Amiga users like me come back *despite* major problems such as lack of SMP or memory protection or the dire lack of applications.
I think AROS already takes most of the *small* market segment that is willing to put up with these kind of shortcomings just to use an AmigaOS like OS on generic x86 hardware. That's not to say than an x86 version can't work.
Amiga needs more than just the OS - it needs to come as a "package". Take a leaf from Apple, effectively, since Apple today embody a lot of what worked for the Amiga too originally: Sell a *platform* that as a whole is desirable to a user segment, to the point that raw performance numbers or cost becomes less important.
Most users don't "get" what an OS is all about. They buy a package. They want their computer to just work.
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I just dont get it how these two companies, Hyperion and Aeon, plan to survive in this depressed worldwide economy, and generate revenue in a segment inside a niche market, with their current business plan.
Are they for real?
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I just dont get it how these two companies, Hyperion and Aeon, plan to survive in this depressed worldwide economy, and generate revenue in a segment inside a niche market, with their current business plan.
Are they for real?
I imagine thats why there's also cheaper OS4 systems available, even though nobody seems to realize this.
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@Karlos
Good thought. But I dont think it is just camps vs camps thing. Camps are also internally fragmented. If you look at AmigaWorld.net you find out OS4 users are also fighting themselves. It was similar in MorphOS community in old dark ages when MorphOS 2.0 was nowhere seen.
The old Amiga community was never anything else but endless fights. Usually Amiga users defamating other platforms and disillusioned Amigans arguing back. And not only just that but also internal fights especially in late 90s.
Amiga is the fight club :-P
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@Karlos
Good thought. But I dont think it is just camps vs camps thing. Camps are also internally fragmented. If you look at AmigaWorld.net you find out OS4 users are also fighting themselves. It was similar in MorphOS community in old dark ages when MorphOS 2.0 was nowhere seen.
The old Amiga community was never anything else but endless fights. Usually Amiga users defamating other platforms and disillusioned Amigans arguing back. And not only just that but also internal fights especially in late 90s.
Amiga is the fight club :-P
first rule of amiga is don't talk nice about amiga ? :)
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
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Amiga is the fight club :-P
Surely you've just broken the first rule by talking about it :lol:
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What I don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. EVERYONE should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.
This, I can appreciate. When I said "it's going to be expensive", it wasn't a defence of the price, just a statement of fact. I doubt that many people can justify 1500+ UKP for a hobby machine.
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It's because it is not controlled...
PEOPLE NEED control unfortunately... I saw a similair thing with brands of beer,,, people would always comment about why I'd drink a certain beer and condemn me for it but I never cared why they drunk there choice...
I only care of AmigaOS and I only want to speak about AmigaOS... I am not interested about what people are doing on other OSs etc etc... You won't see me even mutter a damn thing about any other OS... why? because I'm not interested what the jones have up the road or what they are doing with it...
Even as a kid I never wanted to try someone elses games machine or anything similair... I didn't even want someone elses potato chips... my logic was, if I wanted a bloody chip I'd cruise off down the road and buy my own...
The only thing I can think of is it has taken so long for AmigaOS to actually go anywhere from 3,9 etc that all Amiga Forums have evolved in to what we see today... If Morphos and Aros and whatever else was out there was like me and just carried on using AmigaOS or even going to the PC or MAC is they wanted (lets face it, these other OSs haven't really gotten anywhere anyway... since my ignorant about this you'll have to forgive my generalisation but I think even you understand what I mean here) Everyone would be pushing for the same thing... but alas we aren't...
Now instead of just letting AmigaOS be they defend there OS by condemning AmigaOS and theres nothing to stop them because there is NO PRO Amiga minded Admins anymore... because of the decay over the many years...
So nothing is ever going to change around here...
But like I said, a new breed of Pro AmigaOS Only forums will emerge and there will be Control... amen...
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@slayer
You facist you! ;)
(and this is a joke with reference to a thread on amigaworld.net)
I like amiga.org exactly because here it is allowed for people to pick at one another to a certain degree without mods going bananas over it. And also the info/nonsense ratio is much higher here than on certain other sites.
As for "Pro AmigaOS Only forums" - what do you mean with "Pro"? Forums that are only "pro" AmigaOS (as opposed to "contra"), or do you mean professional forums only for AmigaOS?
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But like I said, a new breed of Pro AmigaOS Only forums will emerge and there will be Control... amen...
Control? better call it censorship!
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It seems that the X1000 announcement has sent the forum into a timewarp backwards to 2003 or so. I've not seen so much amiga "sectarianism" for a long time.
So, the X1000. It's going to be expensive. We all pretty much understand that. What I don't quite get is why this seems to be such a catalyst for the old Red v Blue nonsense.
I don't think it's all that black and white (or red and blue) now. I don't believe it's all about jealousness, marketing or persuading.
What I feel, that there's much disappointment in the air, which confilcts with enthusiasm. Everyone was waiting something big and well made comeback finally, but things have started to slip in other direction lately.
People would have wanted better prepared presentations, better thought feature and design issues, timeline which doesn't slip, more ready products when brought to public, etc. Something which can be shown at once to big public with an impact which would get some visibility in the mainstream too. Now there's danger that it all can end up like other forgotten half-baked tries in the past and that causes bitter comments on all sides, which can easily be interpreted to something else.
Me as a current MorphOS and classic Amiga user don't have anything against good product from "the other side". Heck, if it would be good enough, it could even attract MorphOS devs to port their OS to it too. And what would be better than new machine capable to run both OSes :-)
MorphOS users are Amiga users by heart and even if the situation is competitive nowadays it still hurts to see our old beloved Amiga name in non-professional attempts, which might even only get some laughs outside the community. Things could get pulled together still, but there's already some damage made for this attempt too.
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Am I alone in wondering what all this recent nonsense is about?
It's something new and the company pushing it made fucking absurd claims and spun the hype machine to some warp factor beyond comprehension. More amidrama, folks will buy it, get screwed and time will bury it under a layer of delusion. The cycle continues.
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It's something new and the company pushing it made fucking absurd claims and spun the hype machine to some warp factor beyond comprehension. More amidrama, folks will buy it, get screwed and time will bury it under a layer of delusion. The cycle continues.
Koft go back to moo bunny will ya?
@Karlos
As for why I'll tell you why, MOS and KOFTS stay clam and silent as long as there is no movement in AOS4 camp whatsoever, as soon as something happens they feel threatened and take action in order to demonstrate how in the light of this new events they are still "za s*it", and all the hell break loose.
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@pVC
I know there are a lot of nice guys in the MOS community (you, Itix, Guruman just to name a few) but there also those that can't wait to jump at the register forum to denigrate the effort, and depict it in the worse possible way.
How does that help? Why you felt comppeled to do it?
I'll tell you why and it has to do with persuasion my friend, they just don't want OS4 to get attention and try to ruin it as much as they can.
There is no other reason than fear.
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Koft go back to moo bunny will ya?
Umm, no? Go "back" to moobunny? Amiga.org is where I roost. I've made a few dozen posts on the moo, 1600 posts here. I see you joined here in JUN 2010 and have 88 posts. Maybe you should crawl back to where ever you came from. Don't though, forums need meat.
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I'll tell you why
Or they have fond memories of what Amiga once was.
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Umm, no? Go "back" to moobunny? Amiga.org is where I roost. I've made a few dozen posts on the moo, 1600 posts here. I see you joined here in JUN 2010 and have 88 posts. Maybe you should crawl back to where ever you came from. Don't though, forums need meat.
You know me koft, don't play dumb, and i indicated moo bunny as it fits you not based on post counts...
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i indicated moo bunny as it fits you not based on post counts
Care to elaborate that?
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I put it down to jealousy, if a new development occurs in one "camp" the opposing camp has to shoot holes through it to justify their position.
I wouldve thought any new development in Amiga-Amigaish technology (regardless of which camp) would be better than complete stagnation.
Perhaps people are so myopic they just cant see the bigger picture.
It's fascinating, in a morbid way.
Having a bit of competition between the multiple camps is a good thing, spurs on development of new products and code. Now if you examine the multiple camps, most of them have looked to aim pricing around $200-$400 with hardware and OS. One camp is charging double that for their low end and their high end goes for many times higher amount. That makes the comparison of buck:bang ratio valid between the competing products and a significant loser is going to get a drumming on how poorly they do in that comparison. Reason majority of them are going for cheapest route possible for their platform is economic conditions by aiming at a sweet spot where it's a reasonable purchase.
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I just dont get it how these two companies, Hyperion and Aeon, plan to survive in this depressed worldwide economy, and generate revenue in a segment inside a niche market, with their current business plan.
Are they for real?
Perhaps there is some type of government sponsored bailout package they wish to apply for? There has to be something beyond a few hundred mobo sales to do this investment over during these awful times.
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I think a few of the forum-ers hereabouts need to go out to a bar or pub and get in a real confrontation instead of sitting in their cozy bedroom simulating it on teh interwebs where it's "nice-n-safe"(tm).
Shhh...
...society is about to crumble.
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I imagine thats why there's also cheaper OS4 systems available, even though nobody seems to realize this.
Define "cheaper."
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I think a few of the forum-ers hereabouts need to go out to a bar or pub and get in a real confrontation instead of sitting in their cozy bedroom simulating it on teh interwebs where it's "nice-n-safe"(tm).
True, they may experience what real world pricing is like and what those products are capable of doing. Amazing how technology has advanced and prices have dropped.
Shhh...
...society is about to crumble.
In Europe, I would say that is dangerously close over the next couple of years. US is coming to it's own crossroad in the not too distant future.
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Karlos, I use Amiga emulation and MorphOS (plus I've played around with AROS and may dedicate another system to it as it matures). I too do not understand the unnecessary divisions between Amiga related camps.
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@Iggy.
Thats the problem with you. You just don't get it.
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When I make a positive comment or suggestion, frequently I get negative feedback.
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For people who just don't get it, it is rightly so
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When I make a critical comment or suggest a change, I'm often personally attacked.
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You make ssuggestions that are such nonsense of very important matters, you should be attacked. AND you still don't get it
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If I didn't already know that many of the people I'm dealing with are sharp, intelligent individuals with interests similar to mine, I'd be really offended by some of the rude treatment I've received lately.
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Now who in the intelligent community of Amiga Org would give rude comments to a person who just don't get it. We are all here to help.
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And its not just OS4, AROS or MorphOS, original Amiga users and Natami fanatics have been just as rabid.
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And for a person that just don't get it, who are you to accuse us of being rabid. Such manners from people seeking our intelligent help.
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Considering the similarities between systems and their common point of origin, you'd think we'd be more unified.
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Well the majority of us are, it is just that people who just don't get it would think Amiga Org was such a mess and non unified.
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Have a nice Amiga day.
smerf
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What's not to understand? This happens almost everywhere in everyday life.
What I don't get is that the trolls aren't interested in ever buying, let's say the X1000, yet they regularly return to say the same thing they've said before in most of their posts.
Admittedly I think there's a pretty small chance that I'll be buying an Amiga / Amiga-like thing at any point soon, partly because I just built a new PC, partly because my computer needs (apart from games) are pretty minimal, partly because I would have to get really passionate about a new product and its price and development state (the X1000 demo is what is on my mind here) to be reasonable, but I still hope that something will come which ticks the boxes I'm interested in, because I liked the original Amigas so much.
I don't frequent Amiga.org as often as I did about 4 years ago, partly because I feel it's mostly a waiting game for what I'm interested in. So if I have so little to say because of my very-part-time interest, then what has someone who isn't ever going to buy, say an X1000 or its successors, got to say on such a regular basis?
It reminds me of an argument I had when I was about 7 with another kid, about which was superior, the A500 or the C64, he was adamant that he was right, yet I argued with him so much until, I think a teacher took me aside, and kind of said "what's the point in this? do you really think you're going to change his opinion?". For people to so regularly troll on threads with comments like "it's not a real Amiga, they can't have that name" (are they expecting the second coming with clouds parting and an idealisation of Commodore speak unto them?), or "it'll be a load of crap anyway", etc., makes me think that they haven't learnt a simple lesson or two that I learnt with I was SEVEN YEARS OLD.
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Having a bit of competition between the multiple camps is a good thing, spurs on development of new products and code. Now if you examine the multiple camps, most of them have looked to aim pricing around $200-$400 with hardware and OS. One camp is charging double that for their low end and their high end goes for many times higher amount. That makes the comparison of buck:bang ratio valid between the competing products and a significant loser is going to get a drumming on how poorly they do in that comparison. Reason majority of them are going for cheapest route possible for their platform is economic conditions by aiming at a sweet spot where it's a reasonable purchase.
It all boils down to what you want, I might be willing to spend premium for a dedicated custom designed hardware made for AmigaOS (the AmigaOne X1000) while I wouldn't use an Open source OS on my sister dismissed PC, which would cost me nothing.
It is about what you are trying to offer, what its your vision for the future, those that care to run the official endeavor on dedicated machines don't mind the higher price, they simply find it a more dignified dimension for Amiga to be.
Of course everyone has its own opinion, it would seem that the above one is not much respected though and attacked continuously.
Get over it. Not everybody accepts Amiga as being a vagrant OS running on other's system scraps (no matter how cheap they are), and are willing to go out of their way for Amiga not to end like that. just respect this simple concept (instead of attacking it continuously) and we will all get along nicely.
I don't see AOS4 users attacking other paradigms on purpose, just when provoked.
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people fighting over nothing is always stupid.
if this system fits your needs, get it. if it doesn't, find something else
it's that simple
Hi,
@ cecilia
Yes you get it.
The Amiga people have been fighting over nothing for the past 17 years, and that is just what every Amiga person has today is a bunch of nothing.
Lots of promises, lots of scattered BS, but nothing really stable except for Cloanto's Amiga Forever. OK it works, it plays all the old stuff because nothing new is comming out from the big companies. What could AF really support with some support?
What kind of graphics could it really have?
With a little support AF could have been the OS that made it on any platform, but Amiga eggheads couldn't decide on who or what to support and still can't today even with new hardware around the corner. I want this, I want that, and if I don't get it I don't want to play anymore. Sounds like a bunch of MAC users.
smerf
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I don't see AOS4 users attacking other paradigms on purpose, just when provoked.
You do it all the time yourself mr. DAX, you even did it a few times in this latest post of yours.
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Not everybody accepts Amiga as being a vagrant OS running on other's system scraps
Don't you think this comment might be taken offensively by users of other platforms? (my emphasis)
I'm thinking of dusting off my moderation privs, there's certainly one other post in this thread that I would use it on.
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It all boils down to what you want, I might be willing to spend premium for a dedicated custom designed hardware made for AmigaOS (the AmigaOne X1000) while I wouldn't use an Open source OS on my sister dismissed PC, which would cost me nothing.
Problem is the design might be custom, the hardware is off the shelf. There is not one specialized chip on the mobo. That would be like bragging over a customized x86 with parts dating back from 2007 (or earlier) is a uber specialized hardware platform to run whatever OS on it. Now I do wonder where ACube's systems come into play since your not mentioning them, they can go pound sand since they are not only for OS4?
It is about what you are trying to offer, what its your vision for the future, those that care to run the official endeavor on dedicated machines don't mind the higher price, they simply find it a more dignified dimension for Amiga to be.
Of course everyone has its own opinion, it would seem that the above one is not much respected though and attacked continuously.
Not too many are attacking individuals who are going to purchase this monsterly expensive hardware. The companies responsible for hype for this machine that the OS can not fully use, OTOH, is fair game IMO.
Get over it. Not everybody accepts Amiga as being a vagrant OS running on other's system scraps (no matter how cheap they are), and are willing to go out of their way for Amiga not to end like that. just respect this simple concept (instead of attacking it continuously) and we will all get along nicely.
I don't see AOS4 users attacking other paradigms on purpose, just when provoked.
I'm sure they would if they have a better bang:buck ratio they could brag about.
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but a nice market of 10,000 or even 100,000 users can be achieved.
Actually those pie-in-the-sky fantasies are what lays at the root of all problems coming from the red side ......
With the "current" (announced) combination of HW and SW each might make 1000 users now and another 1000 with good luck.
Combine the cheapness of AROS-HW with the name of Amiga and the Quality of MorphOS-SW and you might make it to 5000 (over the long haul). Add some real (exclusive) killer-apps and you might make 10000, but the age of killer-apps has long past.
The only way to achieve 100000 or more is if some fool pours in atleast 1 billion $ into a project like Apple's iPad, and then replaces the actual OS with something somewhat more sensible (or in other words, Amino-Clowns again only this time with actual money and an CEO/CTO-IQ above room-temparature (meassured in Celcius) ).
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Problem is the design might be custom, the hardware is off the shelf. There is not one specialized chip on the mobo. That would be like bragging over a customized x86 with parts dating back from 2007 (or earlier) is a uber specialized hardware platform to run whatever OS on it. Now I do wonder where ACube's systems come into play since your not mentioning them, they can go pound sand since they are not only for OS4?
sadly I will have to repeat myself here as this the usual classic lovers mantra:
Your idea of custom HW is still pretty much connected to 1980's, where 2D raster graphics game consoles (one, Lorraine, was turned into a computer) were all the rage, however we are in 2010 and if you need to decide how the computer for your OS will look like today (ie:what happens in the real world) you will have a team of engineers sits around a table (either real or virtual) to decide what will be best based on what technology is "possible".
As we discussed with user The_Leander thoroughly, C= had decided Amiga was a dead parrot and scrapped it completely (ie: if they dind't go bankrupt there would have been no Amiga whatsoever in any way or form).And even if they did they were entering an era where the insurmountable speed of evolution of off the shelf graphic chips, was impossible to compete with.
Since the new Amiga described at 1993 DevCon was to be modular and AAA was scrapped as being too little too late, the new Amiga would have used a GPU like modern machines.
BUT alas, that was scrapped in favor of a game console based on the Hombre chipset but this HW was no Amiga as Dave Haynie confessed:
Quote:
Strictly speaking, Hombre is not an Amiga chip set. While it supports some of the Amiga ideas, it's no more Amiga compatible than an SVGA chip (less actually, since all SVGA chips support planar as well as chunky displays,at least up to 4 bits/pixel).
The Amiga OS was not to have run on this system in any form.
They also had a WindowsNT PA-Risc based workstation planned (note that none of the above projects even came close to completion).
AmigaOne X1000 is as good as it gets judging how things went and how the world is changin and moving workloads from the CPU to the GPU.
Not too many are attacking individuals who are going to purchase this monsterly expensive hardware. The companies responsible for hype for this machine that the OS can not fully use, OTOH, is fair game IMO.
Fine let's keep the confrontation then, see how good we do to the community and Amiga in general (read my following post).
I'm sure they would if they have a better bang:buck ratio they could brag about.
Why don't we give it a try and see if we get peaceful instead? (again read my post below)
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Not too many are attacking individuals who are going to purchase this monsterly expensive hardware. The companies responsible for hype for this machine that the OS can not fully use, OTOH, is fair game IMO.
I agree, I haven't seen any name calling and labeling that is often so prevalent on AWN. But it seems to be that a minority (on here anyway) of OS4 users take criticism of the companies and products involved as a personal attack.
I had some fantastic comments about my Morphos box at VCF, looking more modern and so responsive. And several from people who were impressed with what I was running only to run away when they discovered that I was in league with the dark side ;)
I found the X1000 display pretty unimpressive, but then having wasted money in Hyperion's direction twice before, the x1000 would have to be able to pick winning lottery numbers every time for me to stump up the cash :D
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@mikeymike @takemehomemama
You are right, I did that (and other times) quite on purpose actually, just to show how this confrontation doesn't lead to anything good for anyone.
My suggestion (from the start, read my very first posts) is to get along, avoid depicting other flavors in bad light since they can do the same with you (as i did above on purpose) and even defend any Amiga flavor from others attacking it from the outside.
Let's make this a friendly competition where we salute what the other group is trying to accomplish. Aos is trying the old fashioned computer+os package, it's early, let's see where they land, MOS is rejuvenating mac HW that goes slow with OSX but fly with MorphOS (and can get back a lot of ex amigans gone mac), Aros is our Amiga flag when it comes to battling it out in the world of open source OSs, and so on.
I repeat, those that thinking to have" this" or "that" advantage believe it's the best way to show how their system is "za sh*it" will only make it ugly, hurt their very own camp and the community.
I am ready to play it like this. Are you?
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It seems that the X1000 announcement has sent the forum into a timewarp backwards to 2003 or so. I've not seen so much amiga "sectarianism" for a long time.
So, the X1000. It's going to be expensive. We all pretty much understand that. What I don't quite get is why this seems to be such a catalyst for the old Red v Blue nonsense.
The only people that the X1000 was ever going to appeal to is people in the "Red" camp. I strongly doubt anybody in either the "Blue" or "Black" camp would ever buy it, not at any price. The obvious reason being that one's choice of OS dictates pretty much what you can use hardware wise. If you are a MorphOS guy, you are going to get a Peg, Efika or more likely a Mac of some description. End of story, really. Likewise, if you are an AROS guy you're going to choose whatever x86 based kit works for you.
So why all the angst of the X1000, it's price, performance? Personally I like 3.x and it's gang of unruly offspring. I probably use OS4 most of all the "next gen" stuff, but I'm considering a ppc mac at some point so that I can fiddle around with a more up to date MorphOS too.
But that's me. Many others are quite singular in their preference. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. However, if I were predisposed to just one of them, I really would not give a rats rectum about what any of the others are up to. Why would I?
Am I alone in wondering what all this recent nonsense is about?
I'd like to point out one thing, feel free to disagree. If you're going to talk about "camps", I've never seen dissention between the 68K Amiga, AROS, and MorphOS camps. Think about that for a while.
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Why don't we give it a try and see if we get peaceful instead? (again read my post below)
Somebody tried that already:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6ZfFn-Fz5-cJ:www.amiga25.com/+amiga25&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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Don't you think this comment might be taken offensively by users of other platforms? (my emphasis)
There are a few people (always the same people) who do this all the time, all over, not only on amiga.org.
One of my favorites is "I want Amiga, not Windows MacOS, Linux, or MorphOS", i.e. when they group MorphOS together with completely alien OS's, and discard it as such. "MOS is not TEH REEEL!!!11!!". Belittling and degrading. "...but it's not Amiga". And when you present rational arguments on why MorphOS is actually more Amiga and more preferable than "TEH REEEL!!!11!!", they are never able to present counter arguments, instead they start some meta-discussions about the discussion itself, crying "Foul!", "The war is over", "Moderators!", and "I don't see OS4 people posting negative stuff on MorphZone.org" or such crap. This pattern always repeats.
There is a term for these people: BAF's. Blind Amiga Followers. This is a good term, since it describes both their inability to consider options, as well as their priorities; a semi-robbed, quasi trademark is all they care about. Having the ultimate Amiga NG experience doesn't interest them at all.
Boing! Boing!
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Somebody tried that already:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6ZfFn-Fz5-cJ:www.amiga25.com/+amiga25&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Steve was at VFC and had a terrific time with mikey_c and the other AOS4.1 team members, including Trevor Dickinson who gave him several vintage A1000 parts to complete his A1000 DEmo station.
We can do it! :)
@TMHM
Read my post #64, what do you think? can we do it? Can we understand that the ultimate demise of the other camp isn't a necessary condition for one camp to thrive?
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I repeat, those that thinking to have" this" or "that" advantage believe it's the best way to show how their system is "za sh*it" will only make it ugly, hurt their very own camp and the community.
I am ready to play it like this. Are you?
It is not that easy. Because then critics are just ->NULL. And that is not the way forward. I am generally interested in Amiga. If I see flaws I voice them. No matter if this is OS4, AROS or MorphOS.
And if you voice flaws ppl crawl out defending the opposite standpoint. Then you elaborate your standpoint and so forth. That's the point when a discussion can easly turn into an argument.
Plus, ppl are pretty different. I like rather straight talk and am usually open for some sarcasm. Some ppl don't like straight talk and cannot cope with sarcasm at all. That meks discussions not easier.
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I don't see AOS4 users attacking other paradigms on purpose, just when provoked.
Surely you didn't just start watching this whole episode in June 2010? It may seem like OS4 is taking the brunt of slagging now, but were you around to see how this story played out to this point? Do you remember the "MorphOS is based on stolen source code" FUD campaign? It was much nastier in the past and most of it was against any alternative. Amithlon was also a "camp" that was to be hated and attacked.
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It is not that easy. Because then critics are just ->NULL. And that is not the way forward. I am generally interested in Amiga. If I see flaws I voice them. No matter if this is OS4, AROS or MorphOS.
And if you voice flaws ppl crawl out defending the opposite standpoint. Then you elaborate your standpoint and so forth. That's the point when a discussion can easly turn into an argument.
Plus, ppl are pretty different. I like rather straight talk and am usually open for some sarcasm. Some ppl don't like straight talk and cannot cope with sarcasm at all. That meks discussions not easier.
There is "way" and "way", morover you cannot even start to understand how much i like discussing to no end, let me tell you we all sacrifice something for the good of Amiga, our love for discussion and/or harsh confrontations should take second place.
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Don't you think this comment might be taken offensively by users of other platforms? (my emphasis)
I'm thinking of dusting off my moderation privs, there's certainly one other post in this thread that I would use it on.
Go for it, someone else can be called "Hitler" besides Karlos or me for a change:lol:
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Surely you didn't just start watching this whole episode in June 2010? It may seem like OS4 is taking the brunt of slagging now, but were you around to see how this story played out to this point? Do you remember the "MorphOS is based on stolen source code" FUD campaign? It was much nastier in the past and most of it was against any alternative. Amithlon was also a "camp" that was to be hated and attacked.
They told me about it. But this Feud should end wouldn't you think it will benefit us all?
I have no problems to suggest MOS to people owning a MacMini (I usually do) and don't go in threads where they ask about MOS saying things "it isnt te reeel!!!" (as TMHM put it).
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They told me about it. But this Feud should end wouldn't you think it will benefit us all?
I have no problems to suggest MOS to people owning a MacMini (I usually do) and don't go in threads where they ask about MOS saying things "it isnt te reeel!!!" (as TMHM put it).
Think Hatfields and McCoys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield-McCoy_feud
It probably will never go away completely until the fat lady sings. Unless you witnessed this history first hand, you probably wouldn't get it. The fighting goes back to the late-90s at least when there was a WarpUp / PowerUp split. In between there have been legal threats, real life lawsuits, FUD campaigns against not only products but individuals etc. In the past it was not just users engaging in this nonsense, but individuals in the companies themselves. Sprinkle in tons of vapor and outrage fraud / theft of money, the mix is toxic.
I can't speak for other forums, but Amiga.org in 2010 is a pretty calm and respectful place compared to the past. This is nothing and I mean NOTHING like the past. It is also a tiny fraction of what the "kommunity" was in the past. Most people understand at this point it is just a hobby. Only the most dellusional think one of these OSes will go mainstream.
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Think Hatfields and McCoys.
This is nothing and I mean NOTHING like the past. It is also a tiny fraction of what the "kommunity" was in the past. Most people understand at this point it is just a hobby. Only the most dellusional think one of these OSes will go mainstream.
And I'm certainly not one of them, to me all we can get is a small niche.
Anyway, i understand that asking for this feud to end completely is unrealistic, there will always be uncontrollable individuals, but the rest of us can avoid jumping in enforcing this guys, how old are we anyway?
If in the future AOS gets a full Mesa port and new 3D drivers, i won't come here saying "look MOSSERS, shove that 64MB vram c*ap up your a*se now". I will just be happy and will also do anything in my power to shut any red troll that would do something like that (I certainly hope there won't be any, we are old for crying out loud).
The MOS community is a good one, and the Aos one is also a good one in 2010 no matter what happened back then.
We can at least improve things ten folds IMHO.
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sadly I will have to repeat myself here as this the usual classic lovers mantra:
Your idea of custom HW is still pretty much connected to 1980's, where 2D raster graphics game consoles (one, Lorraine, was turned into a computer) were all the rage, however we are in 2010
Then why is A-EON trying to pass this off as the new A1000? Oh wait, it's like it, but not like it, but it's all the same, right? A1000 had innovation with WB 1.x and OCS that had a reasonable bang:buck ratio. A1X1K has a SoC with a dual core the OS can't fully access, a useless IO setup with a eye watering price tag. This sure ain't the A1000 that I remember.
and if you need to decide how the computer for your OS will look like today (ie:what happens in the real world) you will have a team of engineers sits around a table (either real or virtual) to decide what will be best based on what technology is "possible".
Actually the first step is to do a market survey to see what areas that are possible to exploit at a given price range. Once a market is clearly defined then consult with the design engineers to begin forming a business plan. Putting together a product at whatever price and hope that a market share will magically open for you is not what will work in the real world.
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Then why is A-EON trying to pass this off as the new A1000? Oh wait, it's like it, but not like it, but it's all the same, right? A1000 had innovation with WB 1.x and OCS that had a reasonable bang:buck ratio. A1X1K has a SoC with a dual core the OS can't fully access, a useless IO setup with a eye watering price tag. This sure ain't the A1000 that I remember.
Times have changed. The A1000 was expensive and sold to a few, no software really took advantage of its power, that didn't stop it to be the start of something good.
The X1000 can be a start too but in a "sense" that takes in consideration where Amiga was going as a desktop computer (and not as a game console).
Technology wise Amiga500 should have received the Ranger chipset when it came out, with AGA on the market around 1989/1990 and AAA in 1991/92.
They were late all the time, missed the boat, and if it wasn't for RTG and AHI 16-Bit sound cards, the chipsets would have never prompted Amiga as a professional media authoring station (even J.Miner lamented about this in a famous interview).
The rest is hystory Amiga evolved into a professional workstation sporting OS3, RTG and accelerator cards.
Finally GPUs took over the world.
It's inevitable for X1000 to be an extension of that direction, certainly not the extension of console like 2D raster graphics HW.
Actually the first step is to do a market survey to see what areas that are possible to exploit at a given price range. Once a market is clearly defined then consult with the design engineers to begin forming a business plan. Putting together a product at whatever price and hope that a market share will magically open for you is not what will work in the real world.
X1000 as many know is not aimed at mainstream, but to AmigaOS NG users. it would be great if they will do a cheaper machine in the future aimed at ex-amigans "in a more general sense" but this is not it, at the moment. I certainly hope they do something down the line when the OS will be more mature.
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Passions. Everything goes thru passions.
I won't get a X-1000. Not 'cos I'm a MorphOS user, no. I cannot due to my financial state =)
But maybe I wouldn't even if I could. Maybe... Who can speak about what is unknown?
Amiga had/has a significant meaning for me. Having.
And so it is for alot of people, as I see. Nice!
It's hard to believe that something could go at an end. So for something that is going to start.
There is so much hard work beyond an operating system that you can't not to feel admiration for those people working on.
I would try AROS and I guess (sure) I will do when.. I will buy a pc XD!! I bought a laptop 3 years ago (this is my first serious impact with a pc) and I'm so terrified
using this enigmatic piece of hardware.. I always think one day I will press "Shutdown" and peessee will answer to me "Shutup, idiot! I will when I would!!" XD
The immediateness and intuition (gosh!) of an Amiga system are genetically transmitted to my brain and I feel difficult erase 'em.
Remember how I felt when I was treated like a Amiga-sucker in 1996-2000 or prehistoric and so on... :)
Explaining? Why waste words for who doesn't want to understand?!?
Recently I bought a C64 ALDI and an Amiga 500 (payed 30 euros!!) 'cos sometime I become (I am) a crazy collector-user.
I'm modding an A500 (on wich I'm running AmigaOS 3.9 and on wich I will fit a Cybervision 64 3D) and playng Forbidden Forrest on a real C64.
But I've bought a Powermac MDD too, waiting to be able to run MorphOS on. I want try AmigaOS 4 on my Pegasos and I will. Why? No answers when no questions to answer:
if I could answer to such a question, I wouldn't stay here writing those things but in another forum calling trolls everyone.
I can't answer to a question I have in my mind. Will the X-1000 be a success?
I really don't know...
I like to imagine that this machine is a symbol or a sign of something that could be real one day. The machine and the operating system.
Though I guess it wouldn't, since past hardly come back, I will have no fears, no jealousys, nothing. A lot of Amiga Insiders (sorry but to me Amigans is a therm a little bit indigestible, a marking..) are using Mac OS or Windows 7 and none of them has changed the way the feel Amiga. So I will do. Using one system or another.
I like to imagine (and in same cases this is real) much more cooperation and comprehension for each other, as I understend the anger for what should have been and wasn't. Now useless... Time goes by and lets everything beyond...
In any case, my great respect for ALL that people doing something for make me and all of us going on using and enjoying Operating Systems whom I can feel comfortable with.
Thanks!!!
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Then why is A-EON trying to pass this off as the new A1000? Oh wait, it's like it, but not like it, but it's all the same, right? A1000 had innovation with WB 1.x and OCS that had a reasonable bang:buck ratio.
I don't think anyone has made that claim including E-EON themselves, infact in the recent speech at Bletchley Park, Trevor made clear that it is not as groundbreaking as the original Amiga.
5.15 into video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZdsUU193oo&feature=related
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Steve was at VFC and had a terrific time with mikey_c and the other AOS4.1 team members, including Trevor Dickinson who gave him several vintage A1000 parts to complete his A1000 DEmo station.
We can do it! :)
Yeah...sure...
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5501&start=0#74400
Once again, I don't see AROS people bashing on MorphOS, MorphOS people bashing the 68K Amiga, or vice-versa of any combination. Bring OS4 into the mix though and you've got a split. The reason is, only OS4 claims to be Amiga - aside from the 68K camp of course, which really IS Amiga!
If OS4 was HypeOS4, you'd see a lot less friction between everyone. The irony in the post I linked above is, Hyperion's obsession with using "Amiga" in their product's name.
I realize Dax that you feel simply because you were away since the mid-90's and came back to find Hyperion and their partners using the Amiga name that they are the Amiga. If you somehow got lost for several years and returned to find strangers living in your house using your family name, would you just as readily accept them as your family? It seems so.
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I think it is worth noting that Trevor D did say somewhere that he was not averse to other OSes being written for the X1000.
Nothing to stop AROS or even MorphOS being ported to it.
Can the X1000 be purchased without AmigaOS?
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Yeah...sure...
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5501&start=0#74400
Once again, I don't see AROS people bashing on MorphOS, MorphOS people bashing the 68K Amiga, or vice-versa of any combination. Bring OS4 into the mix though and you've got a split. The reason is, only OS4 claims to be Amiga - aside from the 68K camp of course, which really IS Amiga!
If OS4 was HypeOS4, you'd see a lot less friction between everyone. The irony in the post I linked above is, Hyperion's obsession with using "Amiga" in their product's name.
I realize Dax that you feel simply because you were away since the mid-90's and came back to find Hyperion and their partners using the Amiga name that they are the Amiga. If you somehow got lost for several years and returned to find strangers living in your house using your family name, would you just as readily accept them as your family? It seems so.
You must give Cesar what belong to cesar, and that is valid for all camps. Hyperion have some points on their part being that Amiga Inc. entitled them with what was to be their more standard development of the platform (being AmigaOne computers running AmigaOS4) .
We do also need to stop claiming that the direct continuation of OS3 development (whose source code utilization is Hyperion exclusive) AmigaOS4, has nothing to do with the old AmigaOS as I heard many times, as it is just, well, a delusion.
That said, do not confound that use of "Amiga" to mark their NG developments (they have their legal rights to do so) with some red guy dismissing MOS (or Aros) as not being Amiga when provoked (or because he is a troll).
Mos and Aros are as Amiga as anything else, and I do agree this statement should be defended, by Red people too.
They have their history and they deserve maximum legitimation as real Amiga solutions.
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I think it is worth noting that Trevor D did say somewhere that he was not averse to other OSes being written for the X1000.
Nothing to stop AROS or even MorphOS being ported to it.
Can the X1000 be purchased without AmigaOS?
Not initially, but I would truly love to see MOS on it and would surely buy it (I am considering a MOS PowerBook if they do things right, in any case).
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@jorkany
I think this is a bad analogy.
If I came back and found my family's children living in my house, then yes, I would consider them family.
As far as I understand, and I may be wrong, but OS4 includes or has at least been derived from prior AmigaOS source codes.
In my book it therefore makes it an Amiga OS.
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@jorkany
I think this is a bad analogy.
If I came back and found my family's children living in my house, then yes, I would consider them family.
As far as I understand, and I may be wrong, but OS4 includes or has at least been derived from prior AmigaOS source codes.
In my book it therefore makes it an Amiga OS.
IIRC, from the paperwork filed during the law suit with AI, didn't Hyperion say they didn't use it (68K machine code)?
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IIRC, from the paperwork filed during the law suit with AI, didn't Hyperion say they didn't use it (68K machine code)?
Amiga Inc, threatened them to use their OS3 property, in the end they settled by giving Hyperion exclusive rights to it. One of their represetatives when asked the question after the settlement responded that yes, AOS4 was built from OS3.1 source code (they have rights now, and can speak freely).
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what I still don't get is why oh why all questions specifically about OS4 have to be bombarded by MOS fans:angry: I respect AROS very much and especially ClusterUK (Steve) in both the way he promotes AROS but also never degrades OS4 or MOS for that matter.
I'm an OS4 (& classic) user and I'm also looking forward to try out AROS soon..I have no interest in MOS but that does not mean I go over to the MOS forumns and trash it at every single possible opportuniy....geez
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Amiga Inc, threatened them to use their OS3 property, in the end they settled by giving Hyperion exclusive rights to it. One of their represetatives when asked the question after the settlement responded that yes, AOS4 was built from OS3.1 source code (they have rights now, and can speak freely).
You may want to sit and think about this: They state in a court of law, under oath that OS4 is a clean re-write, that it contains no OS3.1 code whatsoever. Then the moment they "win", state publicly that in fact it does contain the code they previously denied.
You do understand that that is perjury, right?
--edit--
Oh wait, this was DAX saying this. Nevermind.
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This, I can appreciate. When I said "it's going to be expensive", it wasn't a defence of the price, just a statement of fact. I doubt that many people can justify 1500+ UKP for a hobby machine.
Remember, its not a hobby machine. They call it a developer machine. I guess they hope someone forks out the money and developes some terrific software to drive sales.
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It reminds me of an argument I had when I was about 7 with another kid, about which was superior, the A500 or the C64, he was adamant that he was right, yet I argued with him so much until, I think a teacher took me aside, and kind of said "what's the point in this? do you really think you're going to change his opinion?". For people to so regularly troll on threads with comments like "it's not a real Amiga, they can't have that name" (are they expecting the second coming with clouds parting and an idealisation of Commodore speak unto them?), or "it'll be a load of crap anyway", etc., makes me think that they haven't learnt a simple lesson or two that I learnt with I was SEVEN YEARS OLD.
64 was Better! :griping:
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Comparing is fine, ranting and flaming away over something you wouldn't have bought even if it came complete with "sex and free beer" seems a bit stupid.
This is sport for some people at this point. And some people just love conflict. And having an old nemisis involved in the project like Ben Hermans is just going to be irresistible to some as well.
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You may want to sit and think about this: They state in a court of law, under oath that OS4 is a clean re-write, that it contains no OS3.1 code whatsoever. Then the moment they "win", state publicly that in fact it does contain the code they previously denied.
You do understand that that is perjury, right?
--edit--
Oh wait, this was DAX saying this. Nevermind.
the first part was just my hypothesis on what might have happened based on dammy statement.
However since you seem so adamant, you should point me out the exact document where they stated under oath about 3.1 not being used. (i'll be waiting for this).
As for the second part they confirmed something along those lines at last year Amiwest after a direct question.
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Remember, its not a hobby machine. They call it a developer machine. I guess they hope someone forks out the money and developes some terrific software to drive sales.
LOL.
God i'm so cynical these days.
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What I don't get the exclusivity some desire, especially but not exclusively on the red side. Some seem to think an ultra high price is a right of passage and keeping an ultra low user base is somehow a good thing. EVERYONE should want to grow all the communities, not run off prospective users.
Lets not forget though that even the SAM 440 was called too expensive by most. Certain hobbies have a certain unavoidable cost of entry. When I paid $500 for a used PegII (G3 mind you) intrinsically it was not worth $500. But it was worth it to me for my hobby. AOS has chosen the custom PPC hardware path, you can only grow that community with folks who have decent disposable incomes. Meanwhile AROS does everything it can to be inclusive, and tons of people want no part of them because they follow the brand name slavishly. And hence the ever present conflict.
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They watched, "Field of Dreams" and adopted it as their business model. I have no clue on what they are thinking by introducing a high end system that the OS can't fully use in the worst economy in a generation, maybe in two generations. Throw in a cult attitude plus very weak marketing capabilities and you have a makings of a great full blown disaster.
But lets be real Dammy, you LOVE that they have lined themselves up for this disaster. Its not enough for you that they fail on their own. You enjoy helping them along.
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Remember, its not a hobby machine. They call it a developer machine. I guess they hope someone forks out the money and developes some terrific software to drive sales.
I don't think they ever called it a developer machine. Dammy spread that one around the forums. A-EON then stepped in it big time by having the beta-tester program which mucked up things more. There seems to be unanswered questions about whether these rev 2 boards will be the same boards sold to end users post-beta or not.
The better tag might be "beta boards" unless A-EON promises that the beta will not lead to a rev 3 board and that its instead all about software debugging.
Calling the machine a developer machine is plain silly anyway. Any developer for AOS 4.x who is acting like a developer and not at the same time an AOS 4.x fan willing to spend anything is not going to spend this kind of money on a developer platform. This is a hobby OS with a user base measured (at best) in the low thousands. A true developer board for AOS 4.x should be more like a Beagle board class machine.
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@Csixx
What's not to understand? This happens almost everywhere in everyday life.
Mac & PC
Democrat & Republican
Ford & Chevy
etc..
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This is certainly not true across the rest of the world 99%. =P
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You may want to sit and think about this: They state in a court of law, under oath that OS4 is a clean re-write, that it contains no OS3.1 code whatsoever. Then the moment they "win", state publicly that in fact it does contain the code they previously denied.
You do understand that that is perjury, right?
--edit--
Oh wait, this was DAX saying this. Nevermind.
That was not my understanding. At the moment we only have me saying one thoing and Dammy saying another.
The best thing would be for Dammy to link to the document he seems to have read. I wouldn't know where to start to look.
The good news it seems that if I am right Dammy will concede this point. Will others?
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@Csixx
What's not to understand? This happens almost everywhere in everyday life.
Mac & PC
Democrat & Republican
Ford & Chevy
etc..
---
This is certainly not true across the rest of the world 99%. =P
Common on! Have you ever dealt with a British motorcycle or car fanatic? Its not like those things were well made, but don't try to convince them that their rides aren't the greatest thing ever created.
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Was not MorphOS supposed to be AmigaOS once upon a time?
Then someone tricked someone into not accepting MOS to be iluminated and become a member of 33 degree in the Amiga Source of the one real Amiga source of the creator of the Workbench.
No seriously, if MOS became AmigaOS we could all be enjoying AmigaOS on cheap second hand Macs now, maybe thats why there is a war in the Amiga world because growing the userbase is easier with 100 dollar hardware than 2000 dollar hardware.
Seriously MOS is almost the same as Workbench, it could very well become the next gen AmigaOS system.
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No seriously, if MOS became AmigaOS we could all be enjoying AmigaOS on cheap second hand Macs now, maybe thats why there is a war in the Amiga world because growing the userbase is easier with 100 dollar hardware than 2000 dollar hardware.
Whats wrong with enjoying MorphOS on cheap second-hands Macs now? MorphOS does not have the Amiga name, so what?
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Ants dig tunnels and forage for food, dogs chase their tails, pop stars make records, and some people use MorphOS and some people use AmigaOS.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make much of a difference.
..hey, that fly is drinking my beer. BBIAB.
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..hey, that fly is drinking my beer. BBIAB.
That reminds me of a great joke:
"One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer, and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink, held it out over the beer, and started yelling, "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT YOU BASTARD!!!!"
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@ ffastback
:roflmao:
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Seriously MOS is almost the same as Workbench, it could very well become the next gen AmigaOS system.
Actually, I've seen MorphOS set up to run Workbench. It's kind of pointless with Ambient and Scalos avalable, but it can be done.
The reason MorphOS users don't refer to it as an AmigaOS (even though the origanl version runs on PPC equipped Amigas) is that its a third party written OS designed to replace AmigaOS and super-cede it.
Hey! Wait a minute. Isn't that what AmigaOS4 is? Well they've got the license to call it Amiga, so we'll have to give them that.
I think I actually understand this now!
By presenting a biased view of their place in the community, they seek to promote their own particular preferences/projects.
That's interesting. I don't see much friction between MorphOS and AROS (in fact, some parts are related). And the only problem I have with AmigaOS users is when they start to pout when you point out that AmigaOS is slower then MorphOS.
Perhaps the reason MorphOS users are not as confrontational is that we can back up our claims. You can try the OS for free. Don't like it? Don't pay for a license.
We welcome all new Amiga related developments. As the community grows as a whole, we will all prosper. Frankly, I'd prefer if no one system became dominant.
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Remember, its not a hobby machine. They call it a developer machine. I guess they hope someone forks out the money and developes some terrific software to drive sales.
They are calling it a developer system now? Have a link? I thought Dammy got roasted for suggesting it was a a developer system a month ago?
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Lets not forget though that even the SAM 440 was called too expensive by most. Certain hobbies have a certain unavoidable cost of entry. When I paid $500 for a used PegII (G3 mind you) intrinsically it was not worth $500.
New PegasosII/G3 boards costed 299Euros in 2003 (around 320 dollars with old exchange rate) and G4 model costed 499Euros (around 540 dollars with old exchange rate). That was 7 years ago, when euro-dollar change was good for USA people but what I mean is that in 2003 a PegasosII-G4/1Ghz costed new 540$. That was *seven* years ago, that's why Sam440 looks expensive to some of us.
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New PegasosII/G3 boards costed 299Euros in 2003 (around 320 dollars with old exchange rate) and G4 model costed 499Euros (around 540 dollars with old exchange rate). That was 7 years ago, when euro-dollar change was good for USA people but what I mean is that in 2003 a PegasosII-G4/1Ghz costed new 540$. That was *seven* years ago, that's why Sam440 looks expensive to some of us.
Certainly italy is the worst place on earth to produce anything, production costs are outrageous.
Taxes here are out of control specially when importing parts, we have 20% vat on anything.
Your concerns are understandable, but I assure you, the Acube guys are not making crazy profits, the above description and some failing loop hole must be generating those high production costs.
By the way, how many PegII boards were produced? And were they made here in europe or out sourced in Asia? (manufacturing I mean).
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You do it all the time yourself mr. DAX, you even did it a few times in this latest post of yours.
In my view, the two of you are the same, equally tedious and mentally challanged.
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@Kolla
Thanks, people doing this :bitch: need some fresh air every once in a while.
Anyway read my post here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53347&page=5) #64 (like the C= could it be a sign?:lol:) and you will see I'm not such a bad guy ;)
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By the way, how many PegII boards were produced? And were they made here in europe or out sourced in Asia? (manufacturing I mean).
I think all batches were produced at DCE factory in Germany. There was a video that showed how the boards were built. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-ZT06NehI
According to old news 400 April2 Peg1 were produced and pre-april and april1 may have been updated. In any case I don't expect more than 500 Peg1 machines. Peg2 was produced in higher numbers, in addition to normal sales Freescale was interested in having them available as developer system and bought some hundreds for developers.
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I think all batches were produced at DCE factory in Germany. There was a video that showed how the boards were built. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-ZT06NehI
According to old news 400 April2 Peg1 were produced and pre-april and april1 may have been updated. In any case I don't expect more than 500 Peg1 machines. Peg2 was produced in higher numbers, in addition to normal sales Freescale was interested in having them available as developer system and bought some hundreds for developers.
Interesting. Certainly Germany is a better place to produce, my guess is that the G4 was also a powerful but not to expensive component as it was mass produced for Apple and other vendors.
One problem I see with current CPUs (regardless of power) is that they are made for smaller markets and produced in smaller quantities.
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Don't like it? Don't pay for a license.
Don't like the license? Whine and bitch about it. :laughing:
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I'm not such a bad guy
You're not invisible on amigaworld.net, you know - once I saw you post here on amiga.org I literally slapped my forhead and cursed, knowing perfectly well what was in for us.
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You're not invisible on amigaworld.net, you know - once I saw you post here on amiga.org I literally slapped my forhead and cursed, knowing perfectly well what was in for us.
:lol:
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Don't like the license? Whine and bitch about it. :laughing:
Now, that is funny! With the current exchange rate at an all time low, that 111 Euros is looking so much more affordable.
Hey, I guess we could all give a little more to Gates and company. I'm so glad I helped to current head of Microsoft buy Chaptain Kirk's command chair.
Can you picture him sitting in it playing with Windows 8?
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You're not invisible on amigaworld.net, you know - once I saw you post here on amiga.org I literally slapped my forhead and cursed, knowing perfectly well what was in for us.
cheers to DAX:drink:..i like your energy:afro:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAX
I don't see AOS4 users attacking other paradigms on purpose, just when provoked.
You do it all the time yourself mr. DAX, you even did it a few times in this latest post of yours.
You do it all the time yourself mr. DAX, you even did it a few times in this latest post of yours.
wow..even so..to say the poor guy was harrassed into any such comments is a massive understatement:rolleyes:
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@ Those who are talking about "camps."
While I can't say this isn't about camps -- there will always be someone who thinks it is -- I can guarantee that for many of us this is about _suicide._
Let's say you have a friend who managed to jump off a cliff. Now, let's say you have another friend, just like the first, who is getting ready to jump off another cliff, and you say "Stop, Amigo! Please don't jump off that cliff!" Is this motivated out of hatred? Jealousy? Anger? C'mon, get serious! It's because you don't want to see another friend get hurt.
Now, let's say you try to talk some reason into that friend, but he won't listen; he's still bound and determined to jump. Do you, A) stand their silently and let him? B) Get angry and ask him why he's doing this? C) Plead with him not to do this? Or, D) Tell him you're superior to him, so go ahead and jump!
Many Amiga fans are wondering why Hyperion and Clan are preparing to jump off a cliff. People saying things like "too expensive and/or too weak" fall into the "why are you doing this?" category, not the "silently let him" or "go ahead and jump" category. For many, this has moved from wonderment to criticism and then anger because Hyperion doesn't appear to be listening. Without a rational explanation of why this particular hardware and price ratio was chosen, how else can they react?
People like myself, who have argued that "it should be x86, but if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3" aren't doing so out of jealousy. We're motivated out of astonishment. If you want to succeed, you need a user base, and in order to have a user base, your solution must be affordable. And, instead, we see our friend getting ready to jump off a cliff yet again.
It sad, really, but I guarantee you, it ain't about camps or jealousy or anything other than fear, disbelief and amazement.
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@ Those who are talking about "camps."
While I can't say this isn't about camps -- there will always be someone who thinks it is -- I can guarantee that for many of us this is about _suicide._
Let's say you have a friend who managed to jump off a cliff. Now, let's say you have another friend, just like the first, who is getting ready to jump off another cliff, and you say "Stop, Amigo! Please don't jump off that cliff!" Is this motivated out of hatred? Jealousy? Anger? C'mon, get serious! It's because you don't want to see another friend get hurt.
Now, let's say you try to talk some reason into that friend, but he won't listen; he's still bound and determined to jump. Do you, A) stand their silently and let him? B) Get angry and ask him why he's doing this? C) Plead with him not to do this? Or, D) Tell him you're superior to him, so go ahead and jump!
Many Amiga fans are wondering why Hyperion and Clan are preparing to jump off a cliff. People saying things like "too expensive and/or too weak" fall into the "why are you doing this?" category, not the "silently let him" or "go ahead and jump" category. For many, this has moved from wonderment to criticism and then anger because Hyperion doesn't appear to be listening. Without a rational explanation of why this particular hardware and price ratio was chosen, how else can they react?
People like myself, who have argued that "it should be x86, but if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3" aren't doing so out of jealousy. We're motivated out of astonishment. If you want to succeed, you need a user base, and in order to have a user base, your solution must be affordable. And, instead, we see our friend getting ready to jump off a cliff yet again.
It sad, really, but I guarantee you, it ain't about camps or jealousy or anything other than fear, disbelief and amazement.
+ Googol
I don't think I could have said it better, myself. No matter how hard your try, however, it just falls on deaf ears.....
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Very well put EDanaII
I must admit to a certain amount of amusement though. As in "500 bucks for a PPC accelerator... Ha!" or "800 dollars for a motherboard I can only use for what? you're joking!" or lately "2200 dollars for x1000 LO(freak i'm hyperventilating)L"
I have tried not to be negative but when I saw the projected price for the x1000 I literally did laugh out loud. I didn't post about that till now, but I'm sure there will be some that will buy it. More power to them I guess, just don't look down on an Amiga Forever and Aros fan.
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the first part was just my hypothesis on what might have happened based on dammy statement.
Whether or not it was a hypothesis, what you stated would amount to perjury if that was the case.
However since you seem so adamant
Only about your hypothesis.
you should point me out the exact document where they stated under oath about 3.1 not being used. (i'll be waiting for this).
I made no such claims. My response was based purely upon what you wrote in response to Dammy. Any statement sent to a court has a header on the top of it which reads:
I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the state of that the foregoing is true and correct.
So, if your hypothesis is in fact an accurate portrayal of events... Whoops.
Then again.. This is Ben Hermans and Bill McEwen we're talking about here and they're not exactly known for their honesty, so who knows.
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Wow, even this topic has become argumentative!
What was Karlos' point again? Ah, fudge it.
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@The_Leander
I made no such claims. My response was based purely upon what you wrote in response to Dammy. Any statement sent to a court has a header on the top of it which reads:
so you intervened (with no proof whatsoever) just for the pleasure of argumenting with me? I'm honored! :)
So, if your hypothesis is in fact an accurate portrayal of events... Whoops.
Then again.. This is Ben Hermans and Bill McEwen we're talking about here and they're not exactly known for their honesty, so who knows.
No, my hypothesis is just an hypothesis (forum chit chat if you wish), but I heard several times (made an example) that OS3 "C" parts are used in OS4.
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@The_Leander
so you intervened (with no proof whatsoever) just for the pleasure of argumenting with me?
Who was arguing? I was merely pointing out that your hypothesis, if true had some serious strings attached. Nothing more nothing less.
but I heard several times (made an example) that OS3 "C" parts are used in OS4.
Any OS3.x C code from what I've read would almost certainly have been post Olaf Barfals cleanup for 3.5/9. As from what I've read the original source for 3.1 was an unholy mess of 68k Assembler, BCPL and C written for a mix of obscure (And probably now discontinued) compilers. The removal of most of the Assembler and BCPL for 3.5/9 was likely one of the main reasons for the apparent "sluggishness" of those releases compared to 3.1 with all the bells and whistles installed - the newer releases were far more loosely tied to the hardware.
I doubt original much if any, unaltered C= era C source code ever passed by Hyperions desk, and even if it did I can't see much of it having remained once they'd re-jigged the OS for hardware other than the original.
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Any OS3.x C code from what I've read would almost certainly have been post Olaf Barfals cleanup for 3.5/9. As from what I've read the original source for 3.1 was an unholy mess of 68k Assembler, BCPL and C written for a mix of obscure (And probably now discontinued) compilers. The removal of most of the Assembler and BCPL for 3.5/9 was likely one of the main reasons for the apparent "sluggishness" of those releases compared to 3.1 with all the bells and whistles installed - the newer releases were far more loosely tied to the hardware.
I doubt original much if any, unaltered C= era C source code ever passed by Hyperions desk, and even if it did I can't see much of it having remained once they'd re-jigged the OS for hardware other than the original.
Yeah sure, but unless you can check out the source code this is just another hypothesis, with the difference they can look at the source (both new and old) while you don't.
For the moment I'll take their word...
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Meh!
I'm tired of watching the bald monkeys fling sh*t at each other.
'night all.
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Yeah sure, but unless you can check out the source code this is just another hypothesis, with the difference they can look at the source (both new and old) while you don't.
For the moment I'll take their word...
Well that "hypothesis" is based on their own words, what they stated in the court docs (yes, I did read them, all of them, have you?) As well as comments of other developers who have seen and commented publicly about the state of the original C= code.
Indeed to cover your implication of my lying about having ever visited AW.net there is a post there by Ben Hermans bigging up Olaf for all his hard work in unstuffing the 3.1 code. It is very similar to what was stated in the court case btw.
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Well that "hypothesis" is based on their own words, what they stated in the court docs (yes, I did read them, all of them, have you?) As well as comments of other developers who have seen and commented publicly about the state of the original C= code.
Indeed to cover your implication of my lying about having ever visited AW.net there is a post there by Ben Hermans bigging up Olaf for all his hard work in unstuffing the 3.1 code. It is very similar to what was stated in the court case btw.
Well I could tell you many things, but I would then need to post links to the parts where what I say is corroborated ;)
You should understand that when you have people with access to the sources telling a story, no matter how we argue, unless we take a look at sources directly and compare, we are just speculating.
You know what their current stance is, and you cannot prove them wrong (even if you could provide links for the court statements which seems you cannot, it still proves nothing practically speaking. what if they used it anyway? unless you check with your own eyes it's all speculation, mine and yours).
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I have said it before else where but they have gone a very weird route expensive hardware and just average specs. And as for camps i don't belong to any camp i love all things Amiga Morph OS, OS4 and AROS but let face it they will not replace my win7 systems as they are my hobby not my living. And i would pay 1500 (AU$2500) if it was a high spec machine but it isn't i actually was a bit sad when i saw the spec's and the price.
Anyway i do hope the sell them but not to me just can't justify the Performance <> Cost of it.
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Well I could tell you many things, but I would then need to post links to the parts where what I say is corroborated ;)
Well, here are the Frieden brothers (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/28/) statements (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/30/). Ben's corroboration is on AW.net as part of an interview he did. If you look through the rest of the case it comes up time and again that Hyperion ended up having to go through Olaf to get the 3.1 source code as AI didn't have it. Olaf had previously worked with AI on the 3.5 and 3.9 projects and not been paid.
You should understand that when you have people with access to the sources telling a story, no matter how we argue, unless we take a look at sources directly and compare, we are just speculating.
That's a very cute way of dismissing everything handed to you before you've even got it. Well played.
You know what their current stance is, and you cannot prove them wrong
Which would be a logical fallacy. But by the same token, the implication you keep making that something other than what their statements in court say requires you to back it up.
(even if you could provide links for the court statements which seems you cannot,
A-Inc VS Hyperion court documents (http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-wawdce/case_no-2:2007cv00631/case_id-143245/). Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?
it still proves nothing practically speaking.
Heh, so regardless of anything else you're just going to dismiss whatever it placed before you, fair enough.
Well at least you're consistent in your dismissal of anything you don't like. So much for your statements on AW about trying to end conflict.
We're done.
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I am guessing that the longer it takes A-Eon to produce boards and complete systems to get into the beta-testers hands and then again, another production run to get more systems into general sales release, the more likely it is that the entire project will fail and never be completed.
There has already been more than enough negative comments by dozens of people about the specs, the proposed price, the lack of information regarding the CPU, etc., to discourage other potential purchasers. If any of us were in a position where we were putting up thousands of our own dollars/euros/pounds to fund the X-1000 project and we read all the negative comments being written over the last few months, I think most of us might start having second thoughts about going forward and spending even more money on the project to see it finished if we were not sure how many sales could be made to recoup some or all of our investment, let alone make any profit. So if more potential purchasers keep writing forum messages stating that they like the idea of a new Amiga, but the spec to cost ratio of the X-1000 is not for them, what are the chances that A-Eon may at some point realize that they will not be able to sell enough machines and/or boards to recoup their investment and then decide to cancel the project instead of risking even more money to complete any stage of the production?
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@amigadave
Depending on how smart/willing to cut their losses the person is behind it is, I'd say very likely.
If the fella behind it had actually done market research before jumping in with both feet I suspect even the prototype as seen at the vintage fair would never have been commissioned.
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It's not I want to dismiss but until I see proof I don't believe what people tells me.
We discussed two things, 1)The X1000 similarity to the Devcon93 papers, and the 3.x Sourcecode actually used in OS4.
1) I told that the X1000 is very similar to what was described at devcon93 (generic mobo with modular components) and I explained to you why I reached that conlcusion: the last amiga they talked about (hombre was no Amiga) at 1993 devcon was to have the AAA chip-set as a modular interchangeable board, the whole project was ditched, we know that, but if for a moment we want to forecast what would have happened in case they made it, we can clearly see that by 1996/97 off the shelf GPUs, which were advancing at the pace of a new chip every 3 months at the time (from 10 different companies) would have replaced any chip-set C= had in mind (with the difference that in the A4000 adding an RTG card still leaves the old chipset there, with that new Amiga, after taking AAA away, there would be no GFX chipset left inside the machine) and by today any Amiga would use Ati or Nvidia GPUs (there was no competing with that evolution speed, too fast).
You told me that, "that could be said of any modern PC" but it would seem that you fail to realize that that's how the world went.
GFX chipsets in this survival of the fittest rolling ball we live in, lost their battle and went extinct regardless of Amiga, so saying the X1000 is no Amiga because of lack of fabled chip sets is absurd.
2) source code: I only see talks about the NG exec there ( and warp3D and elf), the C parts I talked about were in Intuition, and other components, they commented on several occasions the C part is used at least as a base for many things (now OS4.1Up2 has a lot of updated components so who knows).
I believe them and don't see any evidence in the documents you posted, moreover if we don't check the actual sources, we'll never know for sure (is their words against yours).
Notice that it is you who is trying to be authoritative, I only post my impressions and explain "why" I have them.
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I want to add a little positive news to this thread. If the X1000 sells well and the XMOS technology is innovative and allows 3D rendering to be spead up we will add support for XMOS in Aladdin 4D 6.x or 7.x. The original creator of Aladdin 4D Greg Gorby wanted to support the Transputer project which XMOS descends from. We will respect Greg’s wishes and take advantage of this cool feature of the X1000.
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We discussed two things, 1)The X1000 similarity to the Devcon93 papers
Which they're not.
, and the 3.x Sourcecode actually used in OS4.
Ben Hermans interview on AmigaNews.de, where he explains Olaf Barthals role in it all (http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2001-11-00060-EN.html) and of course, the court docs I linked (link 3) to previously.
(hombre was no Amiga)
Hombre was AAA's final port of call. It's also questionable whether AOS would have been on a Nyx derived system since Dave himself has stated several times over the years that it was EOL even before C= collapsed.
at 1993 devcon was to have the AAA chip-set as a modular interchangeable board, the whole project was ditched, we know that,
but if for a moment we want to forecast what would have happened in case they made it
And here is where the sticking point is. AAA was dead, it was never going to be completed and Hombre was a last ditch effort to try to salvage some value out of the chipset. More on this below.
You told me that, "that could be said of any modern PC" but it would seem that you fail to realize that that's how the world went.
LOLWUT? I stated that in no uncertain terms that is precisely how the world went and how the PC was from the beginning. Do you even bother to read what you're writing?
X1000 is no Amiga because of lack of fabled chip sets is absurd.
I have never once said that. I stated that 1, that the X1k is no more an amiga than any modern PC. 2 (it isn't), that AAA was an architectural dead end which lead to hombre, which was C='s last project. (which you disputed) 3, that the X1k bears no resemblance to AAA on any but the most broad concept (IE modularity, beyond that sweet FA).
the C parts I talked about were in Intuition, and other components, they commented on several occasions the C part is used at least as a base for many things (now OS4.1Up2 has a lot of updated components so who knows).
That would be the C parts that Olaf had been refitting for OS3.5/9. And yes this is specifically mentioned both in the interview and the court docs if you bother to look. I even provided a link to the whole set of court docs and I genuinely recommend you go through them all. They provide fascinating insights into the way these people think as well as provide documentary evidence for what went on.
I believe them and don't see any evidence in the documents you posted, moreover if we don't check the actual sources, we'll never know for sure (is their words against yours).
The court found in Hyperions favour based on the balance of available evidence, based on the sworn testimony of the Friedens, Ben and Olaf. Again, if you have any evidence to back up your implications to the contrary, the onus is on you to provide it. Your moving the goalposts would be funny if it weren't so tragic and typical of fundie thinking when confronted with information they don't like.
Notice that it is you who is trying to be authoritative
That would be because I based it on the available evidence for my part.
I only post my impressions and explain "why" I have them.
Nice try sunbeam. Trying to squirm your way out after the fact wasn't funny the first time and it isn't funny now. You've been given more than enough evidence to show where you went wrong. Enough for a court of law to rule on in fact. Yet all you do is play this line of "oh well I was only hypothesising" or demand ever more evidence for something that is patently clear to see for everyone else.
If you want to continue to assert or imply that something other than the publicly available evidence I have provided to you happened, do so with your own evidence.
Like I said. We're done here.
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Ben Hermans interview on AmigaNews.de, where he explains Olaf Barthals role in it all (http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2001-11-00060-EN.html) and of course, the court docs I linked (link 3) to previously.
The links you posted proves nothing I'm afraid. Some C parts with comments that date back to Dave Haynie days are still there, the assembly was converted to C by Bartel (aside from the clean ups). The bottom line is that no matter who cleaned up 3.x, the point is that it is in use inside OS4., that's all i said and you wanted to prove otherwise which you didn't (you also have a PM on this subject).
Hombre was AAA's final port of call. It's also questionable whether AOS would have been on a Nyx derived system since Dave himself has stated several times over the years that it was EOL even before C= collapsed.
AAA was compatible with OCS/AGA, Hombre was not. Dave said it used some amiga ideas but that a VGA chip was more compatible to OCS/AGA than Hombre go figure.
And here is the sticking point: you should understand that Chipsets != Amiga
The last Amiga C= as ever talked about was the modular mobo + AmigaOS, AAA was only an add in card that would have been scrapped either eventually, or from the get go (in the end they scrapped the whole thing).
And here is where the sticking point is. AAA was dead, it was never going to be completed and Hombre was a last ditch effort to try to salvage some value out of the chipset. More on this below.
Again, chipsets != Amiga. The fact remain that the modular concept (that in any case would have never "hosted" any GFX chipset as they were too late with dev) was the last "Amiga" they talked about. The Mobo was the Amiga not AAA.
Hombre used some ideas from the old Amiga chipsets, but was no Amiga (chipsets != Amiga).
LOLWUT? I stated that in no uncertain terms that is precisely how the world went and how the PC was from the beginning. Do you even bother to read what you're writing?
So we agree, good.
I stated that 1, that the X1k is no more an amiga than any modern PC.
I said that the X1000 it as good as it gets for today's standard NOT TO YOU, but to another guy who was claiming this was no amiga due to the lack of Amiga chipset . I said that the X1000 is more similar to what they talked at devcon93 than anything we will ever get, I meant that the Devcon Amiga was the Mobo+AmigaOS, not AAA (an obsolete concept that was going the way of the dodo in ANY possible case) chipsets != Amiga.
Moreover it is incorrect to state that the X1000 is like any PC of today, whether you like it or not today fully boxed personal computers don't come with AmigaOS, and as Pyromania ended up evidencing in the previous post they don't come with transputer like tech built in. Don't comment about how useful or useless it might be, the point is, the X1000 it's no PC.
2 that AAA was an architectural dead end which lead to hombre, which was C='s last project. (which you disputed)
oh no, I disputed it was their last "AMIGA" project. Hombre was no Amiga, their last Amiga project was the mobo described at Devcon93 and form the way they speak there, is pretty clear they were going the way everybody else was :
The AAA chips obviously function as just part of a whole Amiga system. It's certainly possible to build a machine, like the Amiga 500, where the Amiga chips essentially are the whole system. Such a system would be composed of the AAA chips, a microprocessor, memory, some CIAs, analog stuff for audio, and one gate array for “glue”. Of course, such a system is rather boring to talk about,
there's considerably more to an Amiga system than the custom chips.
The only thing that would have survived in case they did it would have been the modular mobo, all the rest was scrap.
3, that the X1k bears no resemblance to AAA on any but the most broad concept (IE modularity, beyond that sweet FA).
This is where you make the usual mistake all the time, AAA was not "amiga", but a chipset on a modular board connected to the main MOBO (the latter as a new modular entity running AmigaOS was the next Amiga they had in mind), which could be changed with any off the shelf part, thus leaving an Amiga with no AAA at all. And it is 100% sure that off the shelf part would have taken its place in case they went ahead with the project.
On your "authoritative ways: you talk about AAA as if it = "Amiga" and link documents that do not prove much, so much so for authority. I said they commented "OS3 was used for OS4" recently, not years ago, and what you posted proves nothing on so many levels it boggles the mind (even Olaf code is valid OS3 source used in OS4 in any case, and the new exec was never in question) but there is more of course, you have a PM on this one.
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When the X1000 was first announced I was very happy. I would have bought an X1000 if the price had been right, but it seems like it will be too expensive, so I won't. I have written negative things here in the past about the Teron/AmigaOne, because I thought it was overpriced junk and Sam, because I also think it's underpowered, overpriced junk. I've also written bad things on other forums about the iPad, because it's a crappy, oversized iPod, and the MacBook Air.
I use MorphOS and Mac OS X, But that doesn't mean I would never buy a machine to run AmigaOS - I'm an amiga user for almost 20 years. If X1000 had been 500 to 800 Euros I'd have bought one in a flash, as the hardware sounds good and is a vast improvement over previous offerings. But I cannot justify spending the best part of 2 grand on one.
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When the X1000 was first announced I was very happy. I would have bought an X1000 if the price had been right, but it seems like it will be too expensive, so I won't. I have written negative things here in the past about the Teron/AmigaOne, because I thought it was overpriced junk and Sam, because I also think it's underpowered, overpriced junk. I've also written bad things on other forums about the iPad, because it's a crappy, oversized iPod, and the MacBook Air.
I use MorphOS and Mac OS X, But that doesn't mean I would never buy a machine to run AmigaOS - I'm an amiga user for almost 20 years. If X1000 had been 500 to 800 Euros I'd have bought one in a flash, as the hardware sounds good and is a vast improvement over previous offerings. But I cannot justify spending the best part of 2 grand on one.
Wow, the price of the A1X1K has people sitting up and take notice over at The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/
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Wow, the price of the A1X1K has people sitting up and take notice over at The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/
So you noticed that too eh? (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53389)
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So you noticed that too eh? (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53389)
Oops, didn't see it posted already. Sorry.
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It seems that the X1000 announcement has sent the forum into a timewarp backwards to 2003 or so. I've not seen so much amiga "sectarianism" for a long time.
So, the X1000. It's going to be expensive. We all pretty much understand that. What I don't quite get is why this seems to be such a catalyst for the old Red v Blue nonsense.
The only people that the X1000 was ever going to appeal to is people in the "Red" camp. I strongly doubt anybody in either the "Blue" or "Black" camp would ever buy it, not at any price. The obvious reason being that one's choice of OS dictates pretty much what you can use hardware wise. If you are a MorphOS guy, you are going to get a Peg, Efika or more likely a Mac of some description. End of story, really. Likewise, if you are an AROS guy you're going to choose whatever x86 based kit works for you.
So why all the angst of the X1000, it's price, performance? Personally I like 3.x and it's gang of unruly offspring. I probably use OS4 most of all the "next gen" stuff, but I'm considering a ppc mac at some point so that I can fiddle around with a more up to date MorphOS too.
But that's me. Many others are quite singular in their preference. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. However, if I were predisposed to just one of them, I really would not give a rats rectum about what any of the others are up to. Why would I?
Am I alone in wondering what all this recent nonsense is about?
MorphOS is not an Amiga, it's just another OS. Ditto AROS.
x1000 is a piece of hardware which had such a load of hyped build up that when it was revealed to be a 1.8ghz G5 and not much else (only 50% of which the OS4 can use anyway unlike OS X) at £1500 it seemed a joke with no punchline.
However even that's fine as a product, if you want one buy one be my guest.
My issue is with....
1. People assuming there is no cheap and x86-64 price/performance killing PPC alternative...there is it's called Xenon and runs at 3.2Ghz with the most efficient Power architecture available today for peanuts (Sony/Toshiba funded cost of CELL which IBM derived this CPU from)
2. That x1000 is from an engineering point of view the best machine possible (see 1. above) or that overpriced alternatives like G4/G3 based solutions are worth the price these days.
I guess maybe people would actually like to see a company full of hype actually provide a solution that is technically clever and up to date AND not price it out of the market. Not mass market but not 'screw you nerd! just sign here!' price/performance wise for a change.
It's not like there is any hardware worth purchasing since the original AmigaONE to run OS4 with is there?
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1. People assuming there is no cheap and x86-64 price/performance killing PPC alternative...there is it's called Xenon and runs at 3.2Ghz with the most efficient Power architecture available today for peanuts (Sony/Toshiba funded cost of CELL which IBM derived this CPU from)
So I'll just pop out and buy a Xenon CPU that I can actually run my own code on then... oh wait, no-one sells them except in the Xbox360 which is closed source. In fact even if you wanted too you can't buy them because the Xenon design is licensed only to MS. Sure you could have IBM make you a new CPU based on the PPC core used in the Xenon/Cell but then you've got a bespoke CPU designed for you and that isn't cheap.
Also you'll need a modified compiler for it since generic PPC code runs like crap on it given that it's an in-order architecture unlike every other PPC CPU released since the G3. It's also, just like the CELL, designed to perform best when you're utilising both of the hardware threads per-core. Which is something that AOS can't do either.
You could buy a CELL CPU from IBM but they're not cheap, not by a long way and they're being phased out.
Andy
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What I'm trying to get at, is that they've picked the best CPU they can get involving their partner company (to reduce costs) who bring in all the experience of designing these boards.
Wishing they'd use XYZ cpu is daft because they'd then be looking at another design house to form a partnership with to spread the costs and get development experience.
This is most likely a compromise and even if it's not to your liking at 1.8GHz even a single core is the fastest OS4 capable machine that we've ever had access too.
It's not what I'm after either, I jumped ship to PCs, Windows, Linux and MacOS years ago, the Amiga is the Classic Amiga for me even if they it is my super-fast 68060 at 50MHz. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate that every design is bound to involved some compromise and that cheap PPC CPUs just aren't available. Even a 400Mhz PPC will run to $50 from somewhere like DigiKey and everytime someone releases an affordable PPC board everyone bitches about how slow it is!!!
Andy
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And you just pointed out the main reason why many of us think it should be x86, Andy.
Unfortunately, they're just to invested in PPC, and a are SBT (screwed, blued and tattooed) any way you look at it. And, so is the user base.
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So I'll just pop out and buy a Xenon CPU that I can actually run my own code on then... oh wait, no-one sells them except in the Xbox360 which is closed source. In fact even if you wanted too you can't buy them because the Xenon design is licensed only to MS. Sure you could have IBM make you a new CPU based on the PPC core used in the Xenon/Cell but then you've got a bespoke CPU designed for you and that isn't cheap.
Also you'll need a modified compiler for it since generic PPC code runs like crap on it given that it's an in-order architecture unlike every other PPC CPU released since the G3. It's also, just like the CELL, designed to perform best when you're utilising both of the hardware threads per-core. Which is something that AOS can't do either.
You could buy a CELL CPU from IBM but they're not cheap, not by a long way and they're being phased out.
Andy
Wrong. As the funding for the research that produced Xenon was from an irate combination of Sony and Toshiba Microsoft have no say in who IBM may sell Xenon to as it is linked 100% to the CELL's PPU and anyway it has been confirmed Xenon is not exclusive to Microsoft to me. It is completely their design to sell to anyone with enough intelligence to telephone IBM and ask for help. i7 = £400. Xenon = <£100 even on small scale given 50 million have no been fabricated by IBM.
And as for usefulness the secret x1000 co-pro based on transputers has no code support as standard in OS4 or half of the OTT priced dual core G5. And at 3.2ghz and LESS than the cost of a G4 CPU for SAM etc let alone G5 I think it's a bit silly to complain about OS4 not being optimised for it. If it was used for x1000 Hyperion would have accommodated it's architecture just like they will have to with x1000 to support the second core eventually.
Feel free to put forward a sub £100 CPU as powerful as IBM Xenon/Intel i7 which can run OS4 with minimal modification in your reply.....
As for CELL...seeing as PS3 will be around for a 10 year life cycle I suspect manufacture of said CPU will continue for at least another half a decade. CELL with 1 PPU and 7 SPUs is not really suited to an OS though, and costs more than Xenon anyway.
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There's a lot of arguments against that, and I don't just mean peoples personal feelings.
AOS _still_ wouldn't be able to access anything more than the first physical core and SMT would be equally wasted. Compatibility would be thrown out for old PPC programs, emulation would be required which is not easy. Plus AOS itself would have to be ported including any and all endianess issues.
It also wouldn't bring any greater hardware compatibility because no-one has released any drivers of Amiga OS and the ones we do have would also need porting.
Sure it'd get us access to cheaper hardware but if you're looking for x86 AOS then you're looking for AROS.
Andy
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The Xenon isn't the same as the CELL PPU, I'm a 360 and PS3 developer, they're slightly different. The Xenon is based on it but it was customised for MS. Furthermore it's only available in a chip package which includes a direct bus to the Xenos GPU or as the new integrated package with GPU on package.
So the argument still applies: you contact IBM, they say they only do Xenon as a package for MS, and you'll need to fork out for a re-packaged Xenon chip. I.e. you need a custom chip package containing the Xenon CPU. You pay through the nose for it and you've still not got a off-the-shelf, and thus cheaper, component. You've got all of the work you'd need to do for a custom chip including evaluation and board design etc.
That's my point.
No, I'm not going to name a sub £100 PPC cpu that matches it because there isn't one.
That's my other point.
It's why there are good arguments for going to x86 (which also has negatives) but you can't just pick a closed PPC chip design and go "that one would be better" because no-one can use it for the reasons listed above, this is why I think they made a reasonable choice for the current CPU.
If AOS4 can be made to use that other core eventually then you've instantly doubled the available resources without any extra work. Also that 1.8GHz core is an Out-Of-Order core which is trivial to extract good performance from, whereas the Xenon/CellPPU is an in-order core which it is difficult to extract performance from.
Thus the 1.8GHz available may well be better utilised than a single core/thread on a 3.2GHz Xenon.
Editing to include benchmark.
I knew I'd read this somewhere:
http://www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2007/05/playstation-3-performance-may-2007/
And I quote:
It’s clear that the Cell processor isn’t all that impressive as a general-purpose CPU; if it’s not executing code designed to run on the Cell processor, it’s generally slower than a PowerPC G5 @ 1.6GHz (the baseline processor for Geekbench).
Now, we've got a 1.8GHz core in this X1000 which is roughly equivalent to the G5 but using less power...
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http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook (http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook)
is what OS4 should be running on. Simple, elegant, small and most of all, worth its price point. Not only that, but if it had a fully working and HTML5 compatible browser, Java and Office support, it would be popular, for people who saw it, saw the style of the Workbench ("Hey, that looks like OSX!") and its ease of use, it could add an additional boost to revenue, especially if one of these so-called "announcements" was printed in, oh I don't know, Maximum PC, for example. It would cost the "investor" next to nothing and show off a "new, portable lightweight Operating System that had *TONS* of old style games to access. I'd also like to point out that "social network gaming" is the "next, big thing". Superior, 3D graphical games aren't the gaming choice of the "masses" currently.
Wait.... what was I thinking, though. This is Genesi we're talking about here. After all Hyperion got frakked over by them too........no, that was Amiga, Inc.
Instead, they only target us. Yeah, great way to increase your market base. They're just making their point of sales smaller and smaller.
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There's a lot of arguments against that, and I don't just mean peoples personal feelings.
AOS _still_ wouldn't be able to access anything more than the first physical core and SMT would be equally wasted. Compatibility would be thrown out for old PPC programs, emulation would be required which is not easy. Plus AOS itself would have to be ported including any and all endianess issues.
It also wouldn't bring any greater hardware compatibility because no-one has released any drivers of Amiga OS and the ones we do have would also need porting.
Sure it'd get us access to cheaper hardware but if you're looking for x86 AOS then you're looking for AROS.
Don't get me wrong, because I like what AROS has accomplished, but AROS suffers from the same issue all open source software does: it gets updated when it gets updated (no schedule and rocking). Which is why I'd like to see a professionally supported AmigaOS derivative. Personally, I don't care if it's AOS4 or MorphOS, but cheap affordable hardware is all that matters anymore, especially if you want to grow your base.
Regarding the endianess and emulation issues... that's like me worrying about whether or not my car is slant/straight or V. I don't care. I just want it to get me down the road. :)
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Don't get me wrong, because I like what AROS has accomplished, but AROS suffers from the same issue all open source software does: it gets updated when it gets updated (no schedule and rocking). Which is why I'd like to see a professionally supported AmigaOS derivative. Personally, I don't care if it's AOS4 or MorphOS, but cheap affordable hardware is all that matters anymore, especially if you want to grow your base.
Regarding the endianess and emulation issues... that's like me worrying about whether or not my car is slant/straight or V. I don't care. I just want it to get me down the road. :)
well, open source doesnt mean you cant have dedicated resources behind it. If a company put some weight behind AROS development, it'd do as fine as anything else.
Team up with a few small suppliers of PC hardware to produce more ready to go systems like the imica and you have a nice little setup for hobby guys
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Timbermilf?!?!
Gotta love the comments....
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well, open source doesnt mean you cant have dedicated resources behind it. If a company put some weight behind AROS development, it'd do as fine as anything else.
Team up with a few small suppliers of PC hardware to produce more ready to go systems like the imica and you have a nice little setup for hobby guys
Yep. Which is why I've been watching the development of the iMica and AresOne with interest. An interesting new business model may be emerging here...
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Now, we've got a 1.8GHz core in this X1000 which is roughly equivalent to the G5 but using less power...
And costing 450euro (http://www.ppa.pl/artykul-Trevor.Dickinson.June.2010.-3_32_1257.html) and with no path for upgrade thereafter. This chip is quite simply the literal definition of a dead end. The company that designed them has been swallowed up and the only reason the PA6T is still being produced is because the US army had a contract for them. Simply put, these things are army surplus, which should suit doomy right down to the ground - they really are "mil spec".
The only other PPC on the horizon that might even be remotely competitive that I've heard of is a chip still on the drawing boards at Freescale which may or may not ever come to anything and even if it does will still be years away.
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And costing 450euro (http://www.ppa.pl/artykul-Trevor.Dickinson.June.2010.-3_32_1257.html) and with no path for upgrade thereafter. This chip is quite simply the literal definition of a dead end. The company that designed them has been swallowed up and the only reason the PA6T is still being produced is because the US army had a contract for them. Simply put, these things are army surplus, which should suit doomy right down to the ground - they really are "mil spec".
The only other PPC on the horizon that might even be remotely competitive that I've heard of is a chip still on the drawing boards at Freescale which may or may not ever come to anything and even if it does will still be years away.
Ah yes I forgot, around here its not that you want the moon-on-a-stick, its that it's not the moon-on-a-stick you were hoping for.
Andy
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Ah yes I forgot, around here its not that you want the moon-on-a-stick, its that it's not the moon-on-a-stick you were hoping for.
I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.
Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.
PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.
Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.
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I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.
Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.
PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.
Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.
Then "I dont get it!" How do you make a business case stack up for a product that no one will buy? There must have been some market research done that has identified a product, a price point and a market, surely,,or Not? Or no business case: Just a wing and a prayer?
Gertsy
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Then "I dont get it!" How do you make a business case stack up for a product that no one will buy? There must have been some market research done that has identified a product, a price point and a market, surely,,or Not? Or no business case: Just a wing and a prayer?
You know that was one of the things that bothered me about this from the start. Where was the market research done? Even within the context of a hobbyist market such as the Amiga some measure of research should be done.
I mean consider this fella here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424). He went around various forums enquiring as to the saleability of a PPC console/dev box type unit. Even between the combined Linux PPC, MorphOS, Haiku and OS4 crowds he simply could not justify the development of a product based on PPC. There was no (http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=bg::17&blogItem=100) market for such a device even between all of those hobbyist sets.
If Trevor Dickinson had done even the most cursory of investigations into the viability of just the OS4 market, X1000 would never have even had its blueprints completed, much less prototypes commissioned.
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Maybe he knows something we don't ?
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I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.
Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.
PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.
Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.
But that's just it, it's not for you, they've gone and made it seemingly despite the lack of a market and that's the cost. Some people will buy it though and it'll probably sell some for Linux and MorphOS too since there are die-hard PPCLinux fans too. Just because it's not for you and you wanted X, Y, or Z doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable thing for THEM to have made.
Yes you wanted power at less cost, but AOS4.x doesn't run on anything other than PPC so it was always going to be PPC despite the cost and lack of desktop CPUs because that's the little box we're locked in architecturally.
If you want x86 or ARM then you've got to go for AROS for the time being.
So what "I don't get" is what all the complaining is about, it seems like everyone has a negative opinion to share about the X1000 but isn't willing to accept that their position isn't going to match the existing software (AOS4.x) or the companies (Hyperion etc) goals.
So why complain about it saying it's too expensive when we know that it's always going to be too expensive when using PPC and that it is _always_ going to be PPC.
You either have to accept that and take PPC hardware for AOS4.x or you switch to your alternatives in the form of MorphOS on existing eMac hardware or AROS on x86/ARM(?) but what's the use in complaining about the X1000 when at least someone has spent time, money and their own hard work bringing it to fruition? It's like slapping them in the face and say "you're shit, you should have done XYZ" despite knowing that XYZ is currently out of their control.
Andy
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Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.
Also... what's a BAF? :)
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Also... what's a BAF? :)
Like a BARF but with missing Rs. Or could be Big/Bold/Brash Amiga Fan/Fanatic/Fancier.. I guess.
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But that's just it, it's not for you, they've gone and made it seemingly despite the lack of a market and that's the cost. Some people will buy it though and it'll probably sell some for Linux and MorphOS too since there are die-hard PPCLinux fans too. Just because it's not for you and you wanted X, Y, or Z doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable thing for THEM to have made.
Oh where to start on this....
Yes you wanted power at less cost
Who wanted what now? I think you have me confused with someone who gives a crap about either of the AmigaNG camps.
Want to woo me or many of the others like me on this site? See the Minimig for how to do it right.
, but AOS4.x doesn't run on anything other than PPC so it was always going to be PPC despite the cost and lack of desktop CPUs because that's the little box we're locked in architecturally.
No, what you are is EOL architecturally. This thing isn't even in production any more.
So what "I don't get" is what all the complaining is about, it seems like everyone has a negative opinion to share about the X1000 but isn't willing to accept that their position isn't going to match the existing software (AOS4.x) or the companies (Hyperion etc) goals.
What you don't get is that even amongst the OS4 crowd this thing is grossly overpriced. The PPC linux market is gone, it's history. It is a dead parrot. See my followup post to gertsy regarding the last time someone actually bothered to do any market research into PPC.
Sure, by all means bring new stuff to a market, but even within the hobbyist set some research into the target audience, and even looking into just who it was this was targeted at.
but what's the use in complaining about the X1000 when at least someone has spent time, money and their own hard work bringing it to fruition?
Some of us don't like watching people getting robbed silly. If this chap had done some basic investigations into the marketplace X1000 as it is today wouldn't exist, chances are something like the Sam460 would have been created for a much more palatable price. This isn't about demonising the fella and it never was. This was simply wondering where he got his numbers from.
It's like slapping them in the face and say "you're shit, you should have done XYZ"
No one has said or implied that. Also quit making it personal. It isn't.
BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatics. Basically the most zealous of the "church of the one true amiga". These folks were the ones who left AO during the exodus when it became clear that Wayne wasn't going to accede to their demands to remove all mention of MorphOS AROS and anything else they didn't like the look of. They created AW.net and then later caused a second exodus in the wake of their scamming the community regarding the quality of the A1 to amigans.net.
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Maybe he knows something we don't ?
Almost certainly. But you have to admit, from the outside this looks like a complete hash from start to finish.
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....
BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatics
......
But the Amiga OS never had "Accessibility Options." Though it was always a high contrast OS. Originally.
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(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/insomnianiac/jollygoodshow.gif)
I laughed hard at that gertsy, well played!
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But the Amiga OS never had "Accessibility Options." Though it was always a high contrast OS. Originally.
What, you have never had your amiga speak its entire startup-sequence for you on boot?
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No one has said or implied that. Also quit making it personal. It isn't.
My apologies, I just get really worked up when people seem harsh towards peoples achievements and bringing a PPC computer to market running AOS4.x is an achievement these days. It may not be a wise one, but it's their choice to do it or not and peoples decision if they want to buy it or not.
Look the way I see it is that £1500 for what you get is overly steep for me, I can't afford it, but your criticism's are harsh. You basically stated this CPu is a dead end, but they don't have to use this CPU again, any compatible PPC (from AMCC, Freescale, IBM, etc) chip will do in future if they're still around. Or it's not a good power/performance/price relationship, neither is a Mac but it's the only way you're running OSX.
Simply slamming them for doing it at all though seems churlish.
I'm gonna bow out 'cos you're right though I am making it personal when you don't mean it to be, so my apologies once more.
Andy
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My apologies, I just get really worked up when people seem harsh towards peoples achievements and bringing a PPC computer to market running AOS4.x is an achievement these days. It may not be a wise one, but it's their choice to do it or not and peoples decision if they want to buy it or not.
Indeed.
Look the way I see it is that £1500 for what you get is overly steep for me, I can't afford it, but your criticism's are harsh.
Possibly they are. But their being harsh doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) take away from the fact that they are true.
You basically stated this CPu is a dead end, but they don't have to use this CPU again, any compatible PPC (from AMCC, Freescale, IBM, etc) chip will do in future if they're still around.
And this is where I think we have something of a problem. PPC right now, even for G3 class cpus is hideously expensive. In fact they're more expensive now than when the G3's were first released. It gets worse again with the G4 class parts. Seriously take a peak at development boards along the same lines as that ARM beagleboard I posted about the other day. To get the same sort of performance in PPC you're looking at a 6 fold price premium and it isn't going away or getting any better.
Telecoms don't really need uber fast CPU's for their gear as they tend to tie in the CPU with an FPGA. The market for top end stuff like the PA6T died with Apple going x86. IBM will happily take one of their POWER cores and strip it down or even design you a new core based on the PPC ISA, but for that you need to be on the scale of SONY, Microsoft or Nintendo to justify that sort of outlay.
In the embedded/industrial sector, unless you're in the military PPC doesn't feature all that much. Here it's ARM, MIPS and even Coldfire (for continuation of 68k code). I can see a day where ARM and possibly to a lesser extent MIPS move in on PPC's last major remaining niche in telecoms simply because price/performance is hugely in their favour and the tools to develop with them are well known and mature.
Or it's not a good power/performance/price relationship, neither is a Mac but it's the only way you're running OSX.
Macs aren't *that* bad in terms of price performance. They also have the advantage of having tools and software that make the price palatable to consumers. I can't honestly think of one piece of OS4 software that remotely justifies the price of the X1000 (to be fair though, I could throw the same argument at the Sam and make it stick. Up until recently anything MorphOS could run on too).
Those developers who wanted into OS4 are here already. So this is the pool of talent you have to work with. I can't see too many developers popping out of the woodwork at the thought of a £1500 piece of kit that haven't already.
Hardware lock-in only really works if you can offer something so good as to justify it to your customers - See Oracle with Sparc, for instance or the games console model.
I don't want to come across as nasty, especially as you seem so passionate about this. But at the same time I don't want to sit and watch people getting hurt and possibly being made bankrupt by this knowing I did and said nothing to try to avert it.
Simply slamming them for doing it at all though seems churlish.
I agree, if that were what I was doing.
I'm gonna bow out 'cos you're right though I am making it personal when you don't mean it to be, so my apologies once more.
No worries man, have a good'un. I find watching the women's tennis is a good way of relaxing, hooray for Wimbledon ;)
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BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatics.
The largest BAFs are people with AROS and MacMorph who believe they are using a Amiga. WinUAE too.
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The largest BAFs are people with AROS and MacMorph who believe they are using a Amiga. WinUAE too.
Xenu. Xenu. Xenu. XENU.
Xemu. Xemu. Xemu. XEMU.
(Just to cover both.)
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The largest BAFs are people with AROS and MacMorph who believe they are using a Amiga. WinUAE too.
:rolleyes:
In the words of Bill O'Reilly: "Pinhead? You decide."
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halvliter'n is so right.
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halvliter'n is so right.
He's surely half left?
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he's djrikki too many halfliters, sjøh.
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Here is another guy that doesnt get it :)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/page2.html
..."And new RISC OS hardware has never been so cheap: the official price of the board in its home state of Texas is $149, which with trans-Atlantic markup converts to about £120 in the UK. You'll need some basic RISC OS-fu to get it up and running, but compared to the £1500 that the new Amiga will cost you, it's a bargain. ®"...
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My only beef with the price, is because I, a Classic, AROS, and MorphOS user, want to be able to have a taste of the pie my self! I dream of a future where all incarnations of Amiga exist, and live long and happy lives, co-existing and as compatible with one another as much as they can be, each living up the the Amiga spirit in it's own way.
I've never been a fan of mass collectivism, One World Order concepts, Consolidation, conglomerations, etc. I prefer creativity, diversity, freedom, and exploration led by the light of wisdom and one's conscious.
The Amiga, to me, reflect this. Sure it was about profit, but it was designed by a team with so many things in their heads, they were vibrant, alive, and doing their own thing for the passion of it. It wasn't it cubical job, it wasn't slaving in the sweat shop, it was fun, and it allowed them to expand themselves through it.
And look at Jay Miner, he spoke often about how technology will be the end of us, and eventually we would be wearing the proverbial number of the beast upon our heads.
Their is so much SOUL in the Amiga legacy, it is not funny, and the community, be they at odds at one another, or chill, is the tightest, most amazing community their is. It's almost like religion, in fact much better than organized religion in my book. I can't recall ever having been screwed over by any of the various Amiga users I used to take road trips to meet, or have done business with, etc. Nor have I met an odder gathering of people than at one of the old Amiga shows. It's a fun crowd.
So it is this, that Amiga in it's various incarnations represents, and it is this that I want to have a great future.
Naturally I love what the guys behind the X1000 are doing, yes the price is over what I deem worthy of such an investment at this point as I don't see what I could possibly do with it, that I can't do with Amiga in one of it's other, much cheaper, incarnations. It needs a distinct purpose, a signature quality that makes it stand out, and appealing to people.
That's why I'm concerned about it's future, that's a BIG investment to be making merely for the love of something. Unless they've got an ace in their sleeve that we don't know about, there are only going to be a few, most likely under 100, units sold. At least that is my estimation, maybe my concept of how many financially happy Amiga users are actually out there in the world.
As for niche markets, they got to have software to compete in such a market. I.E. if you want to sell Amigas to factories to maintain and operate the robots, then you better have some well researched, stable, and versatile software available, on an OS that is not going to crash at that.
If this is going to crash and bomb being merely a product made of passion, but with no battle strategy for the market, then I would be hugely saddened by the whole ordeal, and I think it would be yet another battle wound added to Amiga's already scarred history.
So, unless they've got an Ace in their sleeve, like maybe something in relation to that extra processor that will be included, and some software that actually makes it's purpose stand out...
...I'd say they'd have been ahead by maybe going back to the day, and entering the Amiga into the game console wars...
...in a way. I hate to say it, this totally goes against my Jedi Ethic, but if you want to survive in the modern market (cringe), then you got to have an ace up your sleeve, or you got to get into entertainment. Even during recession and depression, the only stores that remain in the quickly dying cities (like now in America) are the stores that cater to mindless over indulgence of various forms of entertainment.
In such a world, the only hope would be to create imaginative and thought provoking media, or media that allows one to create.
That's where the Amiga could have a safe place in such a market. With retro being the in thing, I think it would be wise to advertise the Amiga and it's insanely large back catalog of games. Integrated backwards compatibility seems to be making strides with all variants of Amiga OS, so their could easily be created a simple interface which gives access to a catalog of installed, free to download games from Amiga's history.
Coders could freely write new code for the machine without permission, and would be free to release or sell the software they designed.
Upon booting, the OS could be given (through selecting users) the option to boot into OS mode, or boot into a simple game console type interface which provides easy access to all installed games and or applications.
Of course you could browse the web, do IRC, and all that jazz, which only adds to the couch potato appeal.
I dunno, I'm kind of tired of typing, but I'm thinking the next best step, unless they got an ace up their sleeve, would be an inexpensive and massive market, and I know the gaming market/couch pc market, is only growing, and the home brew seen for consoles is growing as well. These coders LOVE to see how far they can push those machines and their limited resources, one such coder is the well known Bero of the Amiga community as an example. :)
Anyhow, just a thought, I wish them well, and I hope they do have an ace up their sleeve that will provoke me to starve my dog, let the plants die, and the fridge go barren, etc. So that I may too be an Amiga X1000 user.
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he's djrikki too many halfliters, sjøh.
No, I do not.
Free AmigaOne to all!
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No, I do not.
I was a joke, you see... your nick being halvliter'n and that other guy's nick being djrikki, kind of obvious, and very funny when you think about it, so... you get it? Haha... uhm, noone appreciates silly puns anymore? What's wrong with you people! :laughing:
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My only beef with the price, is because I, a Classic, AROS, and MorphOS user, want to be able to have a taste of the pie my self! I dream of a future where all incarnations of Amiga exist, and live long and happy lives, co-existing and as compatible with one another as much as they can be, each living up the the Amiga spirit in it's own way.
I've never been a fan of mass collectivism, One World Order concepts, Consolidation, conglomerations, etc. I prefer creativity, diversity, freedom, and exploration led by the light of wisdom and one's conscious.
The Amiga, to me, reflect this. Sure it was about profit, but it was designed by a team with so many things in their heads, they were vibrant, alive, and doing their own thing for the passion of it. It wasn't it cubical job, it wasn't slaving in the sweat shop, it was fun, and it allowed them to expand themselves through it.
And look at Jay Miner, he spoke often about how technology will be the end of us, and eventually we would be wearing the proverbial number of the beast upon our heads.
Their is so much SOUL in the Amiga legacy, it is not funny, and the community, be they at odds at one another, or chill, is the tightest, most amazing community their is. It's almost like religion, in fact much better than organized religion in my book. I can't recall ever having been screwed over by any of the various Amiga users I used to take road trips to meet, or have done business with, etc. Nor have I met an odder gathering of people than at one of the old Amiga shows. It's a fun crowd.
You sir, speak truth
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I was a joke, you see... your nick being halvliter'n and that other guy's nick being djrikki, kind of obvious, and very funny when you think about it, so... you get it? Haha... uhm, noone appreciates silly puns anymore? What's wrong with you people! :laughing:
it was funny, but you were right, I had drikki(drunk) too many halfliters yesterday.
(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7125/halvlitern.jpg):lol: