Because not many people seem impressed regardless of price. So what is it people would really want from a new machine bearing the Amiga logo on it?Ah! That's the question, isn't it....
1 Do you wan't the equivalent of the A1000 ie pricey but technically light years ahead of everything else for the price of a top end Mac/PC octa-core CPUd desktop? A machine so powerful that you could write games in BASIC/C that exceed PS3/360 games technically but will cost a lot.Actually, the Amiga 1000 was pricey compared to the C64's and other 8-bits out there, and a bit more expensive than the first ST, but...
2 would you just like something that fills the role the A500 did, ie play the same sort of games due to similar technical abilities as the most advanced consoles on sale at the time?
As much as I love to hate Apple, perhaps the iPad is this generations version of that paradigm?? Yes, the iPad isn't perfect, but neither was the Amiga 1000.. :-)
desiv
It is priced way, way far out of range for my hobby budget. 2010 has been a challenging year for much of the US, EU and elsewhere. I think it will be tough selling such a high priced novelty item in such an environment.
Before you jump on me for saying novelty, I think MorphOS and AROS are also novelties for hobbyists.
It is priced way, way far out of range for my hobby budget...
It is priced way, way far out of range for my hobby budget. 2010 has been a challenging year for much of the US, EU and elsewhere. I think it will be tough selling such a high priced novelty item in such an environment.
Before you jump on me for saying novelty, I think MorphOS and AROS are also novelties for hobbyists.
It is definitely out of my price range as well.
But i think it is clearly meets the budget of some amigans considering the prices classic systems go for at ebay.
what is it people would really want from a new machine bearing the Amiga logo on it?That the machine is actually something like an Amiga, and not just a bunch of off the shelf parts :madashell:
This is what I think as well. Heck- I even liked System 7 back in the day. Most people don't need anything more than a Web interface with a few games to tide them over on the bus, plane, toilet, etc. With Google Docs you can do easily 80-90 percent of your word processing needs, and then take them to kinkos to print or send them to internet capable printer. All it has to do is stream A/V content, play A/V content locally stored, and update twitter/faceyspace/etc and its a win.
Agreed. I'll have to wait for the X1000CR.
It is definitely out of my price range as well.
But i think it is clearly meets the budget of some amigans considering the prices classic systems go for at ebay.
Today however it is hopelessly out-gunned as a serious system (the price of a full X1000 setup puts you firmly into gaming laptop and serious workstation territory) and incredibly hard to justify as a hobby machine, even if we were in good times.
so basically an amped up cell phone that you'd connect to a monitor if need be :)
@The BilgeRat
But you can drive similar comparisons of that same HP workstation with iMacs or $5000 Alienware machines, where if you buy the same pieces yourself, you can get the same specs at half the price (I could build up another godzillion comparisons) still they don't run AmigaOS do they?
This is a machine for AmigaOS those interested will buy it, those not interested will not (no need for apple to orange comparisons).
Talking about the price, it is not known yet, I saw much fuss done for a post made by user Tommo1975 but nobody cared for user djrikki who in the very same thread says he heard "less than €1500" and with all THAT CONFUSION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2RR8zhg4MM)where everybody is saying they couldn't clearly hear a thing, it's quite understandable.
Anyway, the X1000 is aimed at developers and power-users according to A-Eon, meaning they don't plan any mass market sales for now ;).
I continue my own route, thanks. When AmigaOS is ready for the masses not the classes I'll be there.
I can't find a reasonable answer to your question, sorry. Good luck to all Amigans !
It is really the end of the road for some people when a product like this disappoints.Not exactly, the "product" is not finished yet, it was brought there to show its tangible existence.
about Aros/WinUAE, the first is not very usable at the moment (I have icaros desktop worry not), and the second does not empower its users at doing modern stuff on Amiga.
I won't start talking about modern browsing, FLASH (http://www.amigasoft.net/pages/gnash/screenshots.asp), what kind of 3D (http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/features/) is possible today etc. etc. (and don't start with "i do that in windows" silly argument, the point is doing that ON AMIGA) I will instead point your attention to the fact that after porting OS4.1 to the X1000, they will start modernizing the OS in order to take advantage of it.
Does OS4 currently have 2D/3D drivers?
@The BilgeRatTrevor Dickinson, presenting at the first outing of the X1000, stated it would be north of 1500 pounds. That to me takes precedence over any forum posting. It would be safe to bet on the cost being over 1500 pounds.
But you can drive similar comparisons of that same HP workstation with iMacs or $5000 Alienware machines, where if you buy the same pieces yourself, you can get the same specs at half the price (I could build up another godzillion comparisons) still they don't run AmigaOS do they?
This is a machine for AmigaOS those interested will buy it, those not interested will not (no need for apple to orange comparisons).
Talking about the price, it is not known yet, I saw much fuss done for a post made by user Tommo1975 but nobody cared for user djrikki who in the very same thread says he heard "less than €1500" and with all THAT CONFUSION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2RR8zhg4MM)where everybody is saying they couldn't clearly hear a thing, it's quite understandable.
Anyway, the X1000 is aimed at developers and power-users according to A-Eon, meaning they don't plan any mass market sales for now ;).
I wouldn't be making too many comparisons in regards to usability of OS4 running on a A1X1K right now vs Icaros Distro. ;-) Second does empower what the vast majority of "amiga" users want, to play their old games.
Since it took, what, six years to port AOS to PPC, I wouldn't be holding my breath for a 64 bit, SMP, full MP OS4 in the near future. Does OS4 currently have 2D/3D drivers?
He will finish his R700 drivers, soon.Did you ask him about this or are you just hoping he will finish his drivers soon? Most developers don't like someone else speaking for them or making promises in their behalf. IIRC Hans isn't going to do 3D drivers at all, but 2D.
Usabilty will be up and running soon worry not, and about the time it takes to develop 3D drivers, Hans De Ruiter responded to Fab asking the same question a few months back like this: the good thing about writing them for a family of similar cards (ATIR500/600/700) is that you don't have to do them over and over again from scratch. He will finish his R700 drivers, soon. Time doesn't go back, much work has been done, they will build upon it.
And as I thought, OS4 does not have 2D or 3D drivers currently.
2D/3D drivers for what? I take it you mean the R500+ ?
For any gfx card.
I can only assume by "2D/3D" you mean "unified" drivers in which a single driver provides access to both 2D and 3D features of the display hardware. Otherwise your statement makes no sense.
Let me rephrase it then, "What specific gfx card(s) out there that has OS4 2D/3D driver(s) for it?" I don't care who made it or what model, or interface.
Other then OS4, why would an Amiga person want a 1500+ GBP system when a eMac or Imica would do for a fraction of the price? That's a massive price jump just to run OS4 and associated apps.
MorphOS is not Amiga at all, nor is Aros
Until we know price for sure, there is little point talking about it.
No confusion about the price at all.
Amiga1Productions YouTube video allows you to see the answer yourself;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EaSN3IuZII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EaSN3IuZII)
at 5:20 into the video the exchange ls;
Question : "How much is it gonna cost?"
Answer : "I dunno, I really don't know. It's gonna be north of £1,500. Definatly. It can't be any cheaper"
Spot the MorphOS fanboy. MorphOS is not Amiga at all, nor is Aros and neither should claim to be.
I agree about the price to a certain extent, but so annoying when people come up with unfounded statistics like 99%. =p
Happy to be in the 1%.
Until we know price for sure, there is little point talking about it.
Anyways the price hasn't even been announced yethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EaSN3IuZII#t=5m18s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EaSN3IuZII#t=5m18s
I was there. They didn't actually announce a price; only hinted.
at 5:20 into the video the exchange ls;
Question : "How much is it gonna cost?"
Answer : "I dunno, I really don't know. It's gonna be north of £1,500. Definatly. It can't be any cheaper"
I was there. They didn't actually announce a price; only hinted.He was quite certain about the price there ("north of £1500 ... definitely").
only hinted.
Happy to be in the 1%. Anyways the price hasn't even been announced yet and maybe not as expensive as feared. Anything can happen between now and then, I am sure A-Eon and Hyperion are always on the hunt for investors with capital.
He was quite certain about the price there ("north of £1500 ... definitely").
So is it definitely or not?
Spot the MorphOS fanboy. MorphOS is not Amiga at all, nor is Aros and neither should claim to be. So your signature makes no sense and how can OS4 be considered redundant when the MorphOS community (or lack there of) is even more fragmented than the real deal.
everyone is convinced that only one option is the real amiga. It's just that nobody agrees which option that is
how can OS4 be considered redundant
As an alternative, NATAMI is your future.
I was there. They didn't actually announce a price; only hinted.
If you make a straight comparison on the following key areas...
Performance
Features
Amiga compatibility
Supported HW platforms (Price, Performance, "Bang for the Buck")
...you will see what I'm talking about. The first point, "performance", was covered in great detail by obligement.free.fr some time ago. Maybe it's time we compile detailed comparison charts for the other key areas as well? Could be done quite easily, and maybe that will help people as yourself to understand its redundancy...
It appears that Ben Hermans is at his usual crisis management mode, claiming that the price will get reduced ("price shaving" as he put it).
If you want Amiga on x86, we already have that. It's called AROS.
I didn't have to be there to be able to hear from that youtube video:
"It's going to be north of £1500. Definitely. It can't be any cheaper."
Meaning: It *will* cost more than £1500, €1800, $2230, it *can't* cost less.
Crystal clear to me, no vague assumptions to be seen anywhere. Only question is by *how much more* than this it will cost, and whether VAT is included or *added on the top* of this?
Can I run OctaMED on AROS then?
and compare (*miga OS's) to (non-*miga OS's) they all lose out in every possible regard as well.
So nyeh. Who cares ? Nobody (hopefully) is kidding themselves that anything amiga is remotely relevant today. We do it because its a fun hobby to tinker with.
LOL, what a stupid discussion.
Yes if the latest beta JanusUAE is installed.
I wish they'd follow Apple's example and announce hardware when it's actually ready and completed and show it running and tell us the price and have it available to order on their website the same day of the announcement. Why is this so difficult?
If what you are looking for is a *miga OS, then the non-*miga OS's aren't the slightest relevant.
Hey, I'm not the one having delusion of grandeur here, so maybe you should direct that to some other guys? (A great deal can be found at the sites amigaworld.net and amigans.net)
To me, this is purely a Hobby thing. What I want is the *miga OS with the best features, best performance, best Amiga compatibility at the best priced and best bang-for-the-buck ratio hardware. I want the best thing available within the *miga boundaries. Then it's a fun hobby to tinker with.
I *don't* want *less* features, *poorer* performance, *worse* Amiga compatibility, running on some 2007 level hardware costing about €1800-€2000. That is *less fun*, at a price range *totally out of reach*.
So AROS has to run a UAE layer to make it work? Doesn't sound very elegant to me.
The last thing we need is ARM motherboards running OS4. G5 is fine, only the price is not. Why waste time porting to trumped up controller board CPUs totally unsuitable for top-end hardware?
The only two modern CPU options are IBM CELL/Xenon (for a semblance of PPC compatibility) or x86 and a reference design system with complete rewrite of OS4. Like it or lump it those are the only two modern CPU families worth a damn for 'new' hardware designs costing 4 figure sums.
The first thing the x1000 designers should have done is contact IBM to discuss their fantastic range of PPC compatible modern CPUs ;)
That's your opinion. Many don't share it.What's your definition of "many" in this instance? ;-)
The project's original goal was to create a new operating system...
What's your definition of "many" in this instance? ;-)
And I don't mean how many people like MorphOS, I mean of those, how many consider it Amiga?
I like MorphOS.. It's very kual.. But it's not Amiga...
Inspired by.. Yes. Partially compatible with, yes...
The benefit of ARM would be small designs which could give us all sorts of interesting compact machines, very low cost and easy accesibility.
x86 would be great too, but then, might as well just pour the development time and money into AROS to amp that up more.
Which would be almost entirely outweighed by the fact you'd still be dealing with very small production runs.
Now there is the voice of reason.
Now there is the voice of reason.
Reason always loses in amiga land. MorphOS developers tend to belittle AROS, claim that it is messy, that it has no apps, that it is mostly broken etc. Yet, where did they go when they needed to get rid of the need for OS3.1 binaries?
MorphOS on old mac hardware might be fun a couple of more years, but not much more. Also, with the lack of modernization of the OS itself, it gets less and less interesting to run MorphOS rather than just using UAE on whatever modern OS there is. So where is MorphOS going?
AROS is no way to go. As long as it is on a normal WinPC, it will never have the special properties Amiga had.
Hate to break this to you, but post newbus macs and the A1 and follow-on systems follow more or less the same basic architecture as a modern PC, the only difference with them is the CPU.
If you want those "special properties" with a modern twist your options are Minimig, CloneA and Natami.
Is CloneA actually progressing at all these days ?
@the leander
Well, I like Natami. X1000 has some potential too, but it is too expensive if it passes 1500EUR.
The question then becomes: Does OS4 offer enough incentive over and above something that can run UAE/Amithlon and OS3.9 as fast if not faster for a fraction of the cost? Hell even MorphOS running on a £40 eMac suddenly becomes a serious issue if you absolutely must have next gen software.
For a very select few that answer will be yes, I must have OS4, but even with this the X1000 has to compete against both the Sam440 and 460.
No matter how you try to paint it, the X1000 is in a very very weak position.
This machine is aimed at a hobbyist marketplace but at a cost usually associated with professional tools such as workstations. As a result you have anyone other than a zealot who will naturally compare what they would be getting with other offerings in the marketplace. In that light the X1000 compares very, very poorly.
I go for option no. 3. The prize is so high, because it has to last 25 years (like the A1000) !!! So, if you look at the prize per year, it's not so expensive.
:laughing:
Well again, it is intended for future opportunities.
Reason always loses in amiga land. MorphOS developers tend to belittle AROS, claim that it is messy, that it has no apps, that it is mostly broken etc. Yet, where did they go when they needed to get rid of the need for OS3.1 binaries?
(i still don't see AROS janus uae as a real solution for 68k integration, except for games).
Regarding the comparison with UAE, the answer is easy: OS3.x is dead, and almost no applications are written for it anymore. The development is clearly targetted for the new OSes.
Janus isn't the only option available for integration within AROS. See here (http://o1i.blogspot.com/) for more details.
That'd be fine if it wasn't for the fact that the vast, vast majority of the Amigas software catalogue wasn't made specifically for the 3.x series. Over and above this, none of the three follow-ons have much by way of software.
Isn't OWB the same browser used for Morph ?
Well, i thought this was what janus uae was based on. Anyway, same thing. This attempt to integrate UAE transparently seems like a very difficult task, and i doubt it will ever reach the level of integration MorphOS or OS4 can achieve.
interesting stuff, thank you
The name and the engine (WebKit) are the same, but that's it. The UI and features of OWB are totally different on AROS, MorphOS and OS4, some versions being more advanced than others. See http://fabportnawak.free.fr/owb/owb-morphos-1.8.readme feature list: many of the listed features aren't available in the AROS or OS4 versions.
So AROS has to run a UAE layer to make it work? Doesn't sound very elegant to me.
Any particular reason this would be the case? PowerPC isn't any closer to Turrican 2 than x86 is.
This attempt to integrate UAE transparently seems like a very difficult task,
and i doubt it will ever reach the level of integration MorphOS or OS4 can achieve.
Firstly, sorry this (http://emumiga.com/) is the link I was aiming for originally. My bad.
I imagine it is, but no more so than writing a from scratch emulation layer for MorphOS or OS4 I would imagine. The engine at least is already done. Setting up a layer to pass between native and emulated is underway now as can be seen from the screenshots.
As far as I know neither MorphOS or OS4's emulation layers offer chipset support. However as with that link above shows there is more than one way to skin a cat.
We'll see how far this project goes, but let me give a few issues that this UAE implementation currently has (and which might be difficult to resolve):
- different UI style between the native OS and the emulated applications (3.x vs AROS). More generally, the emulated applications don't benefit of any AROS enhancement.
- No transparent drag'n'drop between AROS and UAE.
- All kinds of notifications (DOS or anything else) won't be signaled between AROS and UAE.
- What if you want to run some emulated MUI application on another screen, how will UAE handle that? What will happen to the other applications that should stay on wanderer screen?
- To be seen if the actual implementation shares filesystem, clipboard and so on correctly too.
- Is network support even enabled in this UAE version?
I could probably think of hundreds of other scenarios where you could have similar glitches. Some can probably solved, but you see the kind of problem this solution has to face with.
Note that the second link (http://emumiga.com/) (which was the one I should have posted first) is much more in line with the emulation layer offered by both MorphOS and OS4.
So AROS has to run a UAE layer to make it work? Doesn't sound very elegant to me.
Meanwhile, let the maniacs rant.
I'm just glad that somebody is trying to do something in the Amiga community.
Weather anyone buys their product is another question.
Funny how no matter what, greed, subversion and guile always seem to play into the "future" (however pathetic that may be) of the Amiga......
:laughing:
The last thing we need is ARM motherboards running OS4. Why waste time porting to trumped up controller board CPUs totally unsuitable for top-end hardware?
That the machine is actually something like an Amiga, and not just a bunch of off the shelf parts :madashell:
@dammy
If we look at how the HW world changed from 1980, I believe the X1000 is as "Amiga" as it gets from a HW standpoint.
Fabled chipsets are no more (even Commodore engineers and J.Miner himself suggested expandability without any chip sets) , replaced by what engineers do on GPUs today, moreover we are entering the era of heterogeneous computing and the X1000 lends itself well to this concept by allowing integer crounching power expansions via XMP and Floating Point expansions via GP-GPU (yes both not avaialble at this stage, but considering the actual software doesn't need much power it is only an option for the future).
Nemo is no off-the shelf mobo, it took a lot of effort to develop, you can read about it here (http://dev.amigans.net/a-eon/NewsRelease-20100618.pdf)(from page two).
As for the rest, yes, you get off the shelf components with some Amiga customization on them, which is a good move at this early stage.
With an embedded (SoC) CPU? It's the anti-Amiga 1000 then.Soc is an intelligent way of integrating memory controllers and other circuits inside the CPU, and quite frankly, it's the way of the future, Intel is going the same route adding stuff "inside" the CPU all the time and Soc is their future as well (if you care to disagree call their engineers and explain them why everything should stay separate instead).
But there is nothing on the A1X1K's mobo that someone else couldn't design and sell. It's a collection of standard mobo parts for a SoC CPU. So what hardware on the A1X1K has "amiga customization" on it, the ATI gfx card has some extra Amiga logic circuits on it? how about the RAM, extra Amiga logic circuits or chaches? How about the disk drives, special Amiga caches on them? Adding decals or silk screening does not make them customized in my book, just rebadged.
Soc is an intelligent way of integrating memory controllers and other circuits inside the CPU, and quite frankly, it's the way of the future, Intel is going the same route adding stuff "inside" the CPU all the time and Soc is their future as well (if you care to disagree call their engineers and explain them why everything should stay separate instead).
In the X1000, the CPU should probably be this one check the whole paper and you will see it is quite similar to other very modern designs: LINK (http://www.systerra.de/documents/PA_Semi_PA6T_1682M_PB_694.pdf)
As for "there is nothing" on the mobo that other could not manifacture and sell, I disagree 2 folds, the first is that the way Xena/XMP and system communicate is a proprietary design Verisys will patent for sure, moreover there will be no home computer as "different" as this one from any manufacturer (if you know of a project or if you know why another company might create such a system feel free to fill me in).
Basically it is as different as it gets for modern standards.
Commodore engineers wrote a long paper as to how Amiga would develop after AAA and if you read it you will see the X1000 is what they describe (I kid you not).
You mean like the Sam440/Sam460?
The ARM CPU (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX515) used in the Efika MX Smartbook (http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook) and the Efika MX Open Client (http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika) should beat the crap out of the 440EP used in the Sam, so it has no reason to be ashamed.
Much is happening on the ARM front right now, much new stuff is coming, performance is increasing all the time, and even multi-core is being introduced.
The Efika MX CPU, the i.MX51, will soon have a big brother, the i.MX53. It's everything the i.MX51 is, but it does incorporate acceleration for 1080p instead of "only" 720p:
I surely wouldn't mind having MorphOS on this.
But I think it will go x86 instead, which I don't mind either! ;)
For the Atom and to a lesser extent their i3/i5 chips yes, more things are being shifted over into the cpu. However, these are primarily aimed at the desktop/nettop/netbook markets. The PA6T was designed from the start as an embedded microcontroller along the same lines as the ARM and MIPS families.Not at all, they already have designs with additional parts being integrated in the CPU for TOP models as well (and where do you think this continuous process will lead in the long run? at having everything separated again? get real please).
I'm sorry what? A bit of glue logic that anyone with access to an fpga prototyping kit could knock up in a few weeks? That's your argument? Dear gods sir you need to lay off of whatever the hell it is you've been huffing. It shares the vast majority of its arch with a bog standard PC. It has a circa 2002 desktop performance SoC sat on top running the show at heavy duty workstation/gaming rig prices.A 2Ghz CPU has the same benchs as a similarly clocked Core2Duo (as posted by Karlos) if you had that power in 2002 lucky you.
Only if you're blind. I've read the paper, it includes a move to double up the AAA chipset, adding PCI in place of Zorro and using a PA-RISC cpu.I don't remember anything about PC-Risc and doubling of AAA, which means you are referring to something earlier.
In short a road map to use as much off the shelf gear as possible as a means to keep down costs associated with development. Note too that AmigaOS was EOL. Commodore were going to be running WindowsNT on those PA-RISC boards.
At no point was PPC a feature on C='s roadmap.
If they had survived long enough to follow that road map and were still around today, they would have ended up being just another beige box x86 supplier as HP dropped the PA-RISC some time back in response to Intels request for the adoption of the abortive Itanium cpu.probably x86 and like Fujitsu and Sharp in Japan, they would have adopted windows as well, that's why the X1000 it's not bad considering what happened.
The PA6T was designed from the start as an embedded microcontroller along the same lines as the ARM and MIPS families.
Commodore engineers wrote a long paper as to how Amiga would develop after AAA and if you read it you will see the X1000 is what they describe (I kid you not).
Not at all, they already have designs with additional parts being integrated in the CPU for TOP models as well (and where do you think this continuous process will lead in the long run? at having everything separated again? get real please).
A 2Ghz CPU has the same benchs as a similarly clocked Core2Duo (as posted by Karlos) if you had that power in 2002 lucky you.
And the Nemo board is still the most "different" motherboard you will ever see in a personal computer from today to eternity, might as well like that a little bit?
I don't remember anything about PC-Risc and doubling of AAA, which means you are referring to something earlier.
No it wasn't. It was designed for desktop and server applications.
You don't typically use a 2+ GHz multi-core CPU as an embedded microcontroller.
So all the more reason to support AROS :)
Certain things are being integrated for sure, on the low end market, especially the nettop/netbook market this makes a huge amount of sense both in terms of cost and power usage. However at the top end there are different stresses - the integration of the memory controller for instance is done to reduce latency. It's unlikely you'll see the gpu moving onto these parts any time soon simply because there isn't the need either on the generic server markets or workstations or high end gaming rigs.You repeated your reply but not answer my question: where this integration process will eventually and inevitably lead in the coming years considering that Hi-end gaming PCs are selling less and less every year ?
As Karlos stated, he was unsure if the Core2Duo benchmark was based on a single or both cores. Regardless, C2D based systems can be had for a tenth of the cost of an X1000. A tenth.You seem to forget that this is a premium PPC machine for AmigaOS developers and users with deep pockets (a lot of them around as they got 150 people that want to beta test) in order for them to expand the platform. Those that think in your terms are not the target audience, the latter instead DOESN'T think in your terms. This is just a first step, if all goes according to plan newer machines will be done later.
Different!=Useful.see above.
There was a post on another thread that I think perfectly summed it up, it said something along the lines of "£1500 to run an Alpha of Firefox?"
Or that you've got no idea what you're talking about. I suspect the latter. Here: Commordores last gasp - Hombre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hombre_chipset). There was nothing later than this as C= down long before it ever got off of the drawing board.Instead it is as I said has the paper i mentioned as nothing to do with Hombre. it was posted many times at AW if you want I can go there and ask for a copy/link.
You do if that embedded microcontroller is a key part of a telecommunications node. That is where PPC is aimed at these days. Not desktop, not generic servers but telecoms. PPC for desktop (and lets face it, generic servers) is dead, it exists only in niche products in niche industries.And who says? PPC cores are used in the Xbox360 (and more) and now in the AmigaOne X1000, if the CPU does what you need it to do, than it's all good.
You often find PPCs tied with FPGAs these days (thankyou the fella that pointed me to that a few months back) within this market.
You repeated your reply but not answer my question: where this integration process will eventually and inevitably lead in the coming years considering that Hi-end gaming PCs are selling less and less every year ?
You seem to forget that this is a premium PPC machine for AmigaOS developers and users with deep pockets (a lot of them around as they got 150 people that want to beta test) in order for them to expand the platform.
Those that think in your terms are not the target audience, the latter instead DOESN'T think in your terms. This is just a first step, if all goes according to plan newer machines will be done later.
Instead it is as I said has the paper i mentioned as nothing to do with Hombre. it was posted many times at AW if you want I can go there and ask for a copy/link.
And who says?
Because not many people seem impressed regardless of price. So what is it people would really want from a new machine bearing the Amiga logo on it?
1 Do you wan't the equivalent of the A1000 ie pricey but technically light years ahead of everything else for the price of a top end Mac/PC octa-core CPUd desktop? A machine so powerful that you could write games in BASIC/C that exceed PS3/360 games technically but will cost a lot.
or
2 would you just like something that fills the role the A500 did, ie play the same sort of games due to similar technical abilities as the most advanced consoles on sale at the time?
Strictly speaking, Hombre is not an Amiga chip set. While it supports someand...(Haynie again)
of the Amiga ideas, it's no more Amiga compatible than an SVGA chip (less,
actually, since all SVGA chips support planar as well as chunky displays,
at least up to 4 bits/pixel).
The Amiga OS was not to haveOn the other hand I was talking about the devCon paper done in 1993 more or less simultaneously to Hombre's development starting point which described a similar to X1000 machine:
run on this system in any form.
The primary goal of an advanced Amiga system can be summed up in one word: modularity. Such a new system, both logically and physically, is composed of several interchangable subsystems. No one piece has any unnatural dependence on any other; interconnections between the system components have to be based on intentional system standards, not chance implementation details.If you add to that that not even MS can afford to challenge Ati and Nvidia R&D departments, you can clearly see where this all would have led...
The motherboard for such a system contains just the basics that will be needed by every system. This will certainly include a number of basic I/O chips for the standard ports on that machine.
Not only does this make motherboard upgrade much easier, but it allows several different motherboards to be designed using the same plug-in modules, and it allows Commodore to easily support more options in system and processor makeup.
Every Amiga "alternative" has a right to exist and it's own merits on why it should. My biggest pet peeve with the entire community, however, is the fact that there's no camaraderie. There's so many applications for A that aren't on B or C. Sure people are all, "You're welcome to port my code, if you'd like", but there also saying "but I'm not going to do it". I understand why they say, do and feel like that, but the "camps" refuse to just say "hey, we're different, but that just encourages evolution, let's work together and add compatibility between the three to allow even faster development". They would rather pick the other apart, like bitter siblings.
@ Runequester,
OT, but if you're ever around Burgerville, make sure you have a Tillamook for me. ;)
That said i understand you were talking about Commodore "gamish" HW named Hombre (an home console that was never produced basically
while I was talking about their plans about future Amigas (nothing to do with Hombre) :
1)Hombre: an uncompleted project that had nothing to do with Amiga because (Dave Haynie speaking below):
and...(Haynie again)
On the other hand I was talking about the devCon paper done in 1993 more or less simultaneously to Hombre's development starting point which described a similar to X1000 machine:
If you add to that that not even MS can afford to challenge Ati and Nvidia R&D departments, you can clearly see where this all would have led...
They're talking about the direction the Nyx AAA testbed was leading to. And if you read up on Haynie he states quite clearly on several occasions that AmigaOS was end of life. Commodore were planning on moving to WindowsNT.
The outcry would have been epic :)
The design called for two chips...Neither design was finished;which basically mean all you got there is the AAA situation all over again, too little too late.
@The_Leander
I'm not saying it's the prodigal son, only responding to "classic" users that there would've not have been any fabled chipset Amiga machine. And by the way, hombre was WAY behind in schedule, Haynie said:
which basically mean all you got there is the AAA situation all over again, too little too late.
The whole chipset idea was to be scrapped as there were graphic processing units manufacturers pumping out new designs every 3 months back then (where there were around 10 different makers).
At the end of the day the X1000 is still more Amiga than anything else
the barebone mobo allow to upgrade several parts in case you upgrade the CPU, (instead of having just a CPU change and keep the old controllers)
Xena could lead to nice ideas, it can still produce some nice Int expansions (XMP), and is something more (not something less) that adds in to the fun.
No matter how you put it, old chipsets are (and were) no more and this is as good as it gets for now.
I underlined that, because both Varisys and A-Eon hinted at this being a beginning not an an end, and since we are just a few months after the settlement it's a nice start, way better than anything we would have seen from C= which as you said, it would have been absolutely nothing
( just some Wintel clones running NT,
yes no Hombre, as it was already obsolete while in highly unfinished state,
and would've been scrapped for some cheaper and more performing GPU)
@the_leander
Look I'm tired, I will repeat again the x1000 is a premium machine aimed at developers (and Power users with no budget constraints).
it is not uderpowered at all for an Amiga machine, it actually sports a better than G5 CPU, and when you buy it you are not searching a bargain,+ mainstream is not a target.
Let me just say (and I'm finished).......
but my business were GPUs (I dealt with Elsa and 3Dlabs) so let me tell you, HOMBRE might have been on par with certain options day one if it made day one, even less options after 3 months
What part of "it wasn't completed and thus it would have been surpassed several folds if they continued to drag on it" you do not understand? (;))
Look I'm tired, I will repeat again the x1000 is a premium machine aimed at developers (and Power users with no budget constraints).
it is not uderpowered at all for an Amiga machine, it actually sports a better than G5 CPU, and when you buy it you are not searching a bargain,+ mainstream is not a target.
Let me just say (and I'm finished) that those that will buy it will not do so with your money, so you may relax a little bit ;)
Which part of your "gpu business" dealt with the console market, exactly?1st) I was taking in consideration your fabled HP-Hombre WinNT computer (which might have dealt with GPUs very much),
Playstation 1, released 1994 was still being actively developed for some 10 years after its initial launch and is one of the most popular games consoles ever to have been sold.
Do you think for one second that the PS1 had state of the art graphics even a week after its release? No, it didn't. Did it make a blind bit of difference to it's success? Not in the slightest.
You've tried repeatedly to conflate AAAs target market (mainstream computing) with Hombres (a games console concept), you can stop now.
In the computer market, sure, which is why AAA and your "future amiga" got canned. But as a games console the system would have been a fine competitor. I'm well aware of the fact that Commodore folded, but I'm not the one claiming that the Hyperion (with all the crap they've pulled over the years) and an as yet untested and unproven AEON are better for the Amiga market than Commodore.Sure, and I said that it was so late they would've dragged it until it was probably 1 year earlier than DC if C= didn't fold (which would have kicked its a*rse big time not to mention PCs were getting Nivida love by that time). If it was released in time sure, but I never argued about it, go re-read what i wrote, all I said was, they were "late" which is a fact regardless of C= status, and by time it would have been ready for "REAL" it would have been obsolete.
Power users? Where? Seriously where are these mystical power users with more money than sense all going to mysteriously appear from? And even if they do, as gazgod points out, wtf are they going to run on it? An Alpha of Firefox and Blender simply do not cut it!I still get the impression you are somewhat exited...
If your offering to these mythical power users is an early firefox port and blender, the question then is, why bother with OS4 when you can do that faster for a tenth of the price on a PC?Enthusiast with enough money or will do it just for fun (early adopters type), and they will be the first to enjoy what the developers will do with the machine.
Since you're explicitely referring to one of my previous answers in some other thread, may i remind you once again that I gave the source code of MPlayer MorphOS for AROS, and helped Deadwood to port it (who was much better placed than me to port it, since he can actually run AROS, and also has better knowledge about the OS and its specificities)? I also gave MAME MorphOS sources to another AROS developer, who managed to port it successfully. I can also "call out for bullshit as soon as i see it".
I would do the same for OWB on AROS, if someone motivated enough volunteered to port it. It's not a question of refusing to port it... It's a question of doing it properly.
On the other hand, i would have a serious problem passing my code to people that would get donations (or even commercial outcome) issued from my work (especially since i refuse them).
That's your opinion. Many don't share it.
1st) I was taking in consideration your fabled HP-Hombre WinNT computer (which might have dealt with GPUs very much),
2nd)You might be unaware that GPUs at the time derived from SGI technology papers and that Nintendo64 (same generation-1996) uses one of those GPUs for openGL acceleration.
In 1998 the Dreamcast came out using a PowerVR GPU. (but again I had in mind your "phantomatic" Hombre computer there, read more about consoles below).
Sure, and I said that it was so late they would've dragged it until it was probably 1 year earlier than DC if C= didn't fold
I still get the impression you are somewhat exited...
Anyway (@Gazgod too) they have already 150 people booked for 100 beta systems so they will have to discard 50 of them, but try to understand once and for all a simple fact: all they plan, is to sell a limited number of machines, get their money back+some and re-invest.
That's it.
You should visit other sites every once in a while you will meet many of this guys...(not to mention all those that solely post in their own country due to language barrier).
I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.
I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.
My simple point being, there needs to be a camaraderie between the camps for the further benefit of all the "flavors".
Even considering a Hombre PC
X1000 is as good as anything Commodore would have done if they didn't fold, as they were late with chipsets and due to the ongoing GPU battle (with new designs every 3 months) chipsets would have gone the way of the dodo just the same.
man it was you who said C= was going to drop AOS and built a WinNT PC that used both hombre chipset and PA-Risc CPU or i would have never mentioned it.
Commodore engineers wrote a long paper as to how Amiga would develop after AAA and if you read it you will see the X1000 is what they describe (I kid you not).
Most probably there would have not being any new Amiga personal computer at all (just a PA-Risc PC
so with the X1000 we got lucky, as at least we're getting something.
And the only reason I stated what I did was because of this:perfect then, patently untrue, however you know what I really meant as per my previous post.
Which is patently untrue for the reasons already given.
As I told you you should visit AW and other sites, the "vision" Amiga.org is giving you is quite distorted as far as your conception of "the rest of the community".
Many did grow up professionally with AmigaOS I had 040-RTG-and more, we want our personal back, we don't think at Amiga as a gaming console as many classic aficionados confine it to be.
Fab, that wasn't directed solely at you and you certainly weren't the first person to say that, either.
Now, let's get on to subject matter. He can "he's in a better position, 'cos he can run AROS and you can't (sic)". Cop-out. You can't go get a low-end, second-hand PC to run AROS? You're telling me you don't have a machine that could run AROS already? I find that hard to believe, since 98.9% of the world pretty much have a PC compatible machine in their house. Since you wish to go back to making up excuses, might I remind you that BTBuilder was linux only and was ported to Windows. Dennis uses Linux exclusively, but his wife has a Windows box. So, he used her machine to port his code, even though he doesn't (have) "better knowledge about the OS and its specificities (sic)". I believe that is called Pot, Kettle, Black.
Finally, never once did I mention your name. Never once did I quote you verbatim. Never once did I imply anything about you, but here you come running, the charge of the Light Brigade, to "defend" yourself, to your own chagrin against a "shame" to your "honor" that had nothing to do with you, nor was it a direct attack at your person. You made a volatile assumption, biased I might add, since from your previous post, it's obvious you have personal issues with me, blindly missing the point I was trying to make.
This, people, is exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm keeping track of all the developments in the Amiga market. Currently, its fascinating how much development is going on. While I'm skeptical that all this effort will pull us out of the hobbyist market into real competition will current PCs, I'm loving all the new developments.
This is no time for us to be fractious. Against great odds we're still here and growing.
I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.
So it was *also* directed at me, which justifies my answer.
Well im getting one.
This part of your post is the only one I'm going to touch. Originally, I thought that it was the fact that English wasn't your primary language. Then, I realized that you, are in fact, just trying to goad me into a fight, which just isn't going to happen. After this, I'm going to simply ignore you and your posts.
I believe that this is game, set and match. I'd say it's been a pleasure talking to you, but not really. :laughing:
Really, it seems like every course is being followed. Sure, it'd be nice in some ways if we were all pulling in the same direction. But this way maybe ensures we'll be around in some fashion going forward. We'll never hit the mainstream again, but at least we have our eggs in a lot of baskets.
Because not many people seem impressed regardless of price. So what is it people would really want from a new machine bearing the Amiga logo on it?
1 Do you wan't the equivalent of the A1000 ie pricey but technically light years ahead of everything else for the price of a top end Mac/PC octa-core CPUd desktop? A machine so powerful that you could write games in BASIC/C that exceed PS3/360 games technically but will cost a lot.
or
2 would you just like something that fills the role the A500 did, ie play the same sort of games due to similar technical abilities as the most advanced consoles on sale at the time?
When I say it, I get flamed, but you're right. However, there's one part in which you are wrong.
There *IS* a chance, albeit an *EXTREMELY* small one, for the Amiga to once again hit the "mainstream" and I'll tell you why.
Google Chrome.
Microsoft is no longer the "end all, be all" of the desktop market. Apple is making small bites at the market (which is something I've been saying Amiga should have been doing for years). Steve Jobs was smart. He created the Iphone and the Ipod, which after years of effort, has become the "staple" of what consumers consider "mainstream". Seriously. Everyone I know wants an Iphone and or wants/has an Ipod. Since the migration to X86, Apple is slowly encroaching into the PC marketplace, because people are tired of Windows. Linux is also becoming a contender due to Ubuntu, as well as increasing software support. I know *TONS* of people that are anxiously waiting for Google Chrome. This is no longer a Windows Market.
Amiga could make a dent in this market, simply by name only, due to the fact that a *LOT* of IT guys, Animators, Game Developers, etc. *REMEMBER* the name. They may not remember the Amiga in its heyday, but they remember the name. Why else would Bill McEwen be interested in it? He knew that for all the Amiga IPs, it was the *NAME* that was most important. The problem is, he knew next to nothing about marketing, economics or running a business. Here's the problem, however.
There's no market base and there's no reason for anyone who's *NOT* an "Amigan" (a term I now use apathetically) to even bother with AROS, OS4 or MorphOS, due to the simple fact that there's nothing the Amiga "flavors" can do that Windows, OSX or Linux cannot do cheaper and more effectively. There is *ZERO* incentive for anyone to use any of the said "flavors", other than nostalgia. Even if one were interested in using one of the Amiga "alternatives" all it would take is a single *LOOK* at any of the current Amiga Forums to have them walk away in disgust, due to the infighting amongst the "community".
There's AROS.exec for the AROS fans. MorphZone is for the MorphOS fans. AmigaWorld.net is for the OS4 fans and Amigans.net is for the over-zealous OS4 fans who took it to an extreme. Amiga.org, which to my knowledge, is the *OLDEST* Amiga Forum on the interwebs still in existence is supportive of all three "next gen" Amiga operating systems as well as Classic 3.9, but there seems to be more fighting here, than anywhere else and it's not surprising. Amiga.org is the most *LIBERAL* of all Amiga sites and once someone gets banned elsewhere, they come here.
The *ONLY* way that the Amiga is going to survive in any shape or form, beyond being classified as a "hobby OS" and to not be ridiculed on just about every site I visit (Slashdot is a good example) is once *ALL* the camps begin working together and the developers begin coding or porting all the essential applications that *EVERY* modern OS provides. Whichever Amiga "flavor" has a working, modern browser, with flash support, a fully working Java port, Email clients, etc. *FIRST* is the "chosen successor" of Classic 3.1 and *NOT* who had "access to the original code". We're not going to go anywhere, until all the petty bickering stops completely.
I sincerely wish that I had the power within me to end this infighting, once and for all. Had I the money, I would have purchased the licenses to the Amiga IPs *years* ago and worked with *ALL* the Amiga camps to provide the most robust Amiga operating system the world has ever seen. AROS would have been the X86 version and both MorphOS *AND* OS4 would have survived as PPC operating systems, with each version having the *SAME* API, using the *SAME* GUI overlay, providing the *SAME* user experience, just on different platforms. I wouldn't have been in it for the money, 'cos right now, there just *ISN'T* any......
My concern was to get the name recognized again, to pass developer systems (for free, mind you) to companies like Autodesk, Adobe, Sun Microsystems, Corel, Fractal Designs, etc. in the hopes that they would port their products to the Amiga operating systems and to get the game support that the Windows, OSX and Linux operating systems appreciate. If I had the money, I would have *EATEN* the cost to provide this, not because I wanted to make money, but because I *LOVE* the Workbench (YES, that's what I believe it should be called, period) *MORE* than any operating system I have ever used and *BELIEVE* that it could still make an impact. All of you need to pray that I win the lottery one day, because if I ever did, *THIS* is what the money would be spent on.
So yes, I too, am a "zealot", but for the *SPIRIT* of the Amiga and what it could once do, instead of the various camps so many of you have chosen. I care not of your camp, I only care that you wish to see the Amiga survive and to see it flourish.
So many of you, however, seem to have lost your way.......
Quoted for +a billion awesome.
As I told you you should visit AW and other sites, the "vision" Amiga.org is giving you is quite distorted as far as your conception of "the rest of the community".
Amiga.org: 7,155 members.
AW.net: 4,428 members.
Amigans.net: 1205 (of which only 300 visits in a month)
Amiga.org is all about all aspects of Amiga. All true Amigans are here. This site isn't about forcing some view about "what is Amiga" onto people; people here are perfectly capable of having their own views on that. It's a true community site, not a marketing site for one particular product, and thus the most relevant site for all things Amiga.
AW.net was created with the sole purpose to suppress/censor any other views than that everyone should buy products from Eyetech and Hyperion. Deleted posts, deleted threads, deleted user accounts was the way they enforced this "truth".
When Perestroika finally made its way to AW.net, the same clowns that once were behind the "exodus" to AW.net, tried a new exodus to amigans.net, to be able to continue the same policy. And look how well that went.
So don't come here lecturing others about "distorted views on Amiga.org", you child of propaganda. Allowing a multitude of voices, views and opinions is the very *remedy* for distorted views.
Amiga.org: 7,155 members.
AW.net: 4,428 members.
Amigans.net: 1205 (of which only 300 visits in a month)
Amiga.org is all about all aspects of Amiga. All true Amigans are here. This site isn't about forcing some view about "what is Amiga" onto people; people here are perfectly capable of having their own views on that. It's a true community site, not a marketing site for one particular product, and thus the most relevant site for all things Amiga.
AW.net was created with the sole purpose to suppress/censor any other views than that everyone should buy products from Eyetech and Hyperion. Deleted posts, deleted threads, deleted user accounts was the way they enforced this "truth".
When Perestroika finally made its way to AW.net, the same clowns that once were behind the "exodus" to AW.net, tried a new exodus to amigans.net, to be able to continue the same policy. And look how well that went.
So don't come here lecturing others about "distorted views on Amiga.org", you child of propaganda. Allowing a multitude of voices, views and opinions is the very *remedy* for distorted views.
Amiga.org: 7,155 members.
AW.net: 4,428 members.
Amigans.net: 1205 (of which only 300 visits in a month)
Amiga.org is all about all aspects of Amiga. ite for all things Amiga.
When was the last account clearance at Amiga.org? I mean removing all the unused for years accounts, like AmigaWorld.net did some years ago?
First Amigans.net is the only Amiga board that performs continuos inactive accounts clean ups, they were at almost 1300, went below 1000 after many clean ups, and now they are back at 1205.
AW.net and Amiga.org however have accounts that are not used since ages (and will probably never be used ever again) not to mention that with past wars, who knows how many trolls built second accounts just to post under different identity (this appens everywhere but these accounts get cleaned at Amigans).
That said, if the AmigaOS4 community en mass, decided to dwell elsewhere, you will still NOT get the whole picture here.
Morover ALL moderators there are NOT AmigaOS only people, most have MOS and fairlanefastback while being an adamant AROS fan, owns all of them.
So how can this be the only board an Amigan (of any flavor) should frequent?
I believe that you and the_leander have a problem with them
Sorry but you do need to visit all boards to get the whole picture, and you cannot speak about the WHOLE community (and say Aos4 supporters are just a few, as I heard here) when you never go out of your usual circle.
From what I've seen, fairlanefastback has had something of a mixed reception on AW.
I refuse to give patronage to sites that actively help in the commission of fraud.
Amigans.net is the only Amiga board that performs continuos inactive accounts clean ups.
IIRC inactive accounts were removed with the switchover to Vbullitin but you'd have to confirm that with Karlos.
Are you saying that is happening in the here and now at AW.net? Or does your accusation only relate to when the original AmigaOne was introduced?
Things are better on AW.net now than before, but *you do have* a site culture which prohibits the slightest insinuation/hypothesis that MorphOS or AROS could actually have *any kind* of merits close to, equal to, or superior to OS4.
Such arguments aren't met with factual counter arguments, as you would expect in a civilized discussion, but fought with the usual "Foul!", "Moderators!", "Enemy of the Amiga!", "How can this outrageous behavior be allowed?" kind of response.
After much internal grief and agony, the site decided to allow discussions about these OS's, but only in a separated, "second class citizen" forum. For a very long time, posts in this forum was hidden away from the front page, and when it was suggested to change this; that MorphOS and AROS discussions *would actually be visible*, it caused the World War III at the site.
Every now and then when some MorphOS or AROS news are posted there, *there will still be* meta-discussions about the fact that the news item was even posted at all (read: it shouldn't be allowed).
To be more accurate some people are upset at the dubious timing of some MorphOS news items. I have been forwarded IRC chat transcripts which (if genuine) show that as sad as this is, there is at least occasional coordination to sink OS4 news items down the list.
Are you saying that is happening in the here and now at AW.net? Or does your accusation only relate to when the original AmigaOne was introduced?
TMHG and leander are 2 guys I respect, I believe I own leanders old 3k (nice chain drilling BTW ;) )
but you cannot come on here spouting you ill informed views and ignoring the past without winding up the locals. There are certain people that are still in the Amiga world that drove the community to its various camps (at least 2 were at VCF) and they cannot be forgiven for their past actions.
If you don't want to be called up on every post, I respectfully suggest you return to where you views are more sympathetically received.
@ffastback
You explain and put up examples. And in my eyes all these annoyances about "MorphOS guys posting in OS4 threads" boils down to one thing: the "you've got to keep'em separated" norm; that you have been a part of for so long now yourself, that it probably has become a norm and normal to you as well. "They shouldn't post here, in this fine thread! After all, we provided some other fine place for them to be!". Whites in the front of the bus, blacks in the back. Apartheid.
Ahum. You mean like OS4.1 announced just a few days after MorphOS 2.0 release, or the settlement between A-inc and Hyperion announced just a few days after MorphOS 2.4 release for Mac mini? I have other examples in stock if needed. :)
The coincidences are quite interesting... Always announcements just a few days after MorphOS releases. Well, it's probably just paranoia from my side, obviously. :)
It would not surprise me if some of that was calculated. It would be just as stupid and petty.
Either way as a site AW.net has published all those news items no matter the "camp" and the re-ordering of a news item to the top hardly ever happens. Where is the problem really?
You should be seeing dual core 2.5GHz ARM cellphones by the end of the year that can encode/decode 1080P. I think it can edit as well.
To be more accurate some people are upset at the dubious timing of some MorphOS news items. I have been forwarded IRC chat transcripts which (if genuine) show that as sad as this is, there is at least occasional coordination to sink OS4 news items down the list.
And yet these people are not separated.
enforced through the unofficial culture and norms that has ruled that site since its very birth (since it was the original reason to start the site and conduct the "exodus" from Amiga.org). These norms and culture are also the reasons behind the clashes and frequent, repeated protests you have about "the new order" from various "old timers". You can't deny that these norms and culture exists.
So your tag line "Amiga Community Portal" is false,
Third-party releases from individual developers are a different story. I cannot possibly have insight into all of those. But as far as official MorphOS news items go, timing has absolutely nothing to do with any outside influences. There have never been official announcements of future announcements either...
I actually was one of the most vocal supporters of the Alt Amiga OS forum showing on the main page. ssolie and I had several public arguments over this. Membership voted for it getting on the main page, and it did. The point that I think irks many AW.net regulars at this point is that there is a group of MorphOS users that don't use that forum much, if at all, and instead seek to hijack and/or derail OS4 threads in OS4 forums.
@ffastback
You explain and put up examples. And in my eyes all these annoyances about "MorphOS guys posting in OS4 threads" boils down to one thing: the "you've got to keep'em separated" norm; that you have been a part of for so long now yourself, that it probably has become a norm and normal to you as well. "They shouldn't post here, in this fine thread! After all, we provided some other fine place for them to be!". Whites in the front of the bus, blacks in the back. Apartheid.
.....
no no no...the point is that here and also at AW almost every post specifically regarding AmigaOS gets hijacked (in a negative/ trashing way) by MOS people EVEN when the OP specifically states that he does not want to hear about any other options etc. This is so blatantly obvious to even the most casual user. You call this behaviour 'apartheid' :angry:
So this went from arguing about the equipment to arguing about OS4 vs MorphOS to arguing about forum vs forum flamewars.
This makes windows/linux discussions look mature and well reasoned.
Flamewars? You must be new here! :lol:
Flamewars? You must be new here! :lol:Is this one of those "knowledge mankind was not meant to view" situations where things will reach out of the monitor and do bad things to me?
Seriously though, if you want to see genuine flame wars, take a gander at the archives circa 2004. Now those were flamewars! :eek:
I've seen MorphOS people trash talk OS4, but not AmigaOS. If OS4 really was AmigaOS that wouldn't happen.
ahh bait thrown but too tired to take it...but thanks for proving a point:rolleyes:
Yeah..... that is kinda the pot calling the kettle black. :roflmao:
Yeah..... that is kinda the pot calling the kettle black. :roflmao:
Be careful, I said something like that and got roasted :flame:
Is this one of those "knowledge mankind was not meant to view" situations where things will reach out of the monitor and do bad things to me?