Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Karlos on May 27, 2010, 10:33:46 PM
-
Ok. I don't like apple a great deal, that is no secret. However, I know that a lot of people buy into their vision and the queues outside apple stores suggest many people don't share my opinion.
There was a lot of buzz over the iPad recently. Personally I don't see the point of it. To my mind, it's the least useful intersection possible between the iPhone and a notebook. There are no applications it can run that a notebook can't run faster, neither is it a phone or a convenient mobile form factor for GPS etc. Anyway, these are all technical reasons I think it's a pile of hyped up overgrown ipod touch.
So, I must have been living in a vacuum lately because somehow I missed this story. If the above criticism of the iPad doesn't put you off (and let's face it, if you like apple stuff, it won't), I am sure this will:
Courtesy of the torygraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7773011/A-look-inside-the-Foxconn-suicide-factory.html)...
A look inside the Foxconn suicide factory
As the Apple iPad launches in the UK on Friday, an investigation shared with The Daily Telegraph reveals the working conditions at the company in China which manufactures the device,
While Apple has risen to become the world’s largest technology firm, Foxconn, the maker of almost all of its devices, appears to have broken under the pressure of keeping up with new orders.
Two more workers attempted to commit suicide on Thursday by jumping from the top of dormitory buildings at its giant Longhua factory, according to sources at the site. Both survived and are currently hospitalised.
On Wednesday night, just hours after the chairman of Foxconn assured hundreds of reporters that the plant was under control, a 23-year-old man killed himself.
So far, at least 16 people have jumped from high buildings at the factory so far this year, with 12 deaths. A further 20 people were stopped by the company before they could attempt to kill themselves.
The hysteria at Longhua, where between 300,000 and 400,000 employees eat, work and sleep, has grown to such a pitch that workers have twisted Foxconn’s Chinese name so that it now sounds like: “Run to your Death”.
Terry Gou, the 59-year-old billionaire who founded the company, yesterday turned his plane around on the way to Taiwan to return to the plant. In a meeting with his senior management, Mr Gou allegedly said that he would not now leave the factory until the suicides stop.
It would seem that the people there are simply being driven mad by the stress of working conditions:
An undercover team of seven Chinese investigators infiltrated the Longhua plant one week ago and told The Daily Telegraph that the trigger for the mass suicides is “inside the factory” rather than any personal or social impetus.
“The facilities at Foxconn are fine, but the management is poor,” revealed Zhu Guangbing, who organised the investigation. “Hundreds of people work in the workshops but they are not allowed to talk to each other. If you talk, you get a black mark in your record and you get shouted at by your manager. You can also be fined.”
He said Foxconn had lost tens of thousands of workers during the financial crisis and had been stretched to the breaking point by the volume of new orders, as products such as the iPad enjoyed monumental success.
“The machines keep moving and the staff have to keep up. The workers need practice to become really efficient, and with a heavy churn of new staff, they cannot adapt. In the past three months, the factory has been losing 50,000 staff a month because workers are burning out,” he said. “Even the engineers and the training staff have had to man the production line,” he added.
“Because Foxconn has had a large number of big orders, the workers are reduced to repeating exactly the same hand movement for months on end.
The workers we have spoken to say that their hands continue to twitch at night, or that when they are walking down the street they cannot help but mimic the motion. They are never able to relax their minds,” he said.
Overtime last year was an average of 120 hours per month per worker, bring their weekly hours up to 70 hours, above the maximum level set by Apple in its guidelines to suppliers. In the wake of the suicides, the company has now reduced the time to 80 hours per month, and is now considering raising its basic wage of 900 yuan (£90) a month by between 50pc and 100pc.
I think we got too used to the idea that sweatshops were all busy making sports clothing and footballs...
To be fair to Apple, Foxconn don't just make their stuff; many hardware companies are happy to delegate their production to them.
I just thought apple, with their self-aggrandizing "cult of better" hyperbole might "think different" when it comes to sweatshop labour. I guess not.
-
If the above is true, it is not the first such problem that apple has had. There was a story quite some time ago about the sweatshop iPod manufacturing. Purportedly, that was all sorted out and there were no more worries about sweatshops ... so they said.
-
The difference is that most companies associated with such facilities and disgusting lack of regard for employee health in such far away places are selling items on a cut-throat margin of pennies.
But Apple are selling items with huge markups when it comes to iPhone/Pad/Pod touch. So they should ensure some of those profits are used to monitor the practices of all their partners and not tarnish their image.
-
Bit harsh Karlos, have you done your research? The Foxconn suicide rate is actually quite a bit lower than the China average.
Not to say working conditions aren't horrible compared to what we are used to, but compared to the rest of China, it's not actually that bad...
Second, Foxconn probably made 70% of the hardware in your house right now... so lets not smear Apple with this one... I would point out that both Apple and Dell have at least put in place codes of practice for Foxconn to adhere to :)
-
Bit harsh Karlos,
Do you expect anything less from me when it comes to Apple ? ;)
have you done your research? The Foxconn suicide rate is actually quite a bit lower than the China average.
The implication in the article is that this is a recent problem in the Foxconn plant. So, comparing to the overall average in China seems a bit of a red herring. You should be comparing it to the average for Foxconn over the last X years.
Not to say working conditions aren't horrible compared to what we are used to, but compared to the rest of China, it's not actually that bad...
Well precisely. Which is why this recent spate of suicides is all the more noteworthy, no?
Second, Foxconn probably made 70% of the hardware in your house right now... so lets not smear Apple with this one...
70%, eh?
I would point out that both Apple and Dell have at least put in place codes of practice for Foxconn to adhere to :)
Which it seems were not being followed.
At the end of the day, Apple, having achieved veritable religion status are selling their kit at quite a price to the faithful. I am sure the profit margin is big enough that if they really wanted to they could manufacture their kit elsewhere and not take such a huge hit.
-
It's no secret that I have a fair few Apple products (iPhone, MacBook Pro, Logic Pro), but the Apple Suicide Factory articles are sensationalist.
Forxconn employs over 500,000 people. Out of those people 10 people committed suicide this year.
The Chinese average is 14 suicides per 100,000 people... That puts the Foxconn suicide average much lower than the national average.
I would add that there have been 2 suicides at places of my work in the past 3 years* (working in organisations of no more than 1000 people)... so lets please have some perspective on this!
-Edit-* Of which I'm totally sure unrelated to my presence. :(
-
Second, Foxconn probably made 70% of the hardware in your house right now... so lets not smear Apple with this one...
Commodore used them, too. Take a look at the ports and connectors next time your Amiga is open :)
Check out Jon Stewart's bit on Apple from the iPhone-prototype-lost-in-bar news cycle. To summarize/paraphrase: "It wasn't supposed to be this way! You're kicking down people's doors while Commandant Gates is ridding the world of mosquitoes!"
-
Forxconn employs over 500,000 people. Out of those people 10 people committed suicide this year.
The Chinese average is 14 suicides per 100,000 people... That puts the Foxconn suicide average much lower than the national average.
Forget the national average, it isn't relevant to the point being made. How many Foxconn employees suicided in the last 10 years due to work related stress and how does that figure, when averaged, compare to the present value for this year?
The suggestions in the article are that excessive demand is outstripping their production capacity which is leading to these problems.
-
I should say that while big companies like HP, Dell, Apple etc use a big company like Foxconn which does have some degree of standards (Perhaps not as high as we would all like)... think about all the cheaper tat that is made in factories with no standards at all! These are the real problem :( :(
-
PAr for the course with Chinese factories. As bad as the Foxconn facility is Toy factories are much worse. At least the semi conductor facilities are climate controlled. It's also harder to get workers at Toy facilities as the ipod factories pay more with better working conditions.
Look at how little foxconn they pay their worked vs.how much apple charges.. plus look at all the perks Apple give their state side employees in the states like same sex health care for couples.
Wonder how long before they revolt...
-
Commodore used them, too. Take a look at the ports and connectors next time your Amiga is open :)
For sure, they are everywhere. I was just needling Matt over his 70% figure. I think the likes of ikea are possibly responsible for a slightly larger proportion of the stuff in my place than Foxconn.
As I say, from this and other sources running the story the suggestion appears to be that these recent suicides represent a leap in the rate for Foxconn which, as has been stated above, is reputedly one of the better employers. A leap that has coincided to the company over-reaching in order to satisfy the demand from some of their clients. Or Apple specifically, so the rumour mill goes.
-
Forget the national average, it isn't relevant to the point being made. How many Foxconn employees suicided in the last 10 years due to work related stress and how does that figure, when averaged, compare to the present value for this year?
I'm still recovering from a mild case of food poisoning (having a chinese girlfriend is hard on the digestive system). So excuse any fogginess in my reasoning.
But I'm pretty sure you can't ignore the national average of suicides... One would expect to find 70 employees to kill themselves at Foxconn per year, regardless of working conditions. Maybe I have missed something here, but that is a simple stat, full stop?
The suggestions in the article are that excessive demand is outstripping their production capacity which is leading to these problems.
Let's ignore what the article is hinting at and look at some actual facts. I refuse to accept a single source as definitive evidence for anything.
-
For sure, they are everywhere. I was just needling Matt over his 70% figure. I think the likes of ikea are possibly responsible for a slightly larger proportion of the stuff in my place than Foxconn.
Err... yeah, my poisoned mind meant to say 70% of your electrical equipment has probably either been made by Foxconn or has Foxconn components in it.
As I say, from this and other sources running the story the suggestion appears to be that these recent suicides represent a leap in the rate for Foxconn which, as has been stated above, is reputedly one of the better employers. A leap that has coincided to the company over-reaching in order to satisfy the demand from some of their clients. Or Apple specifically, so the rumour mill goes.
Not sure Apple sell THAT much hardware... Despite the reality distortion field, Apple isn't number one in any hardware field that Foxconn make.
Do we have any year on year data for Foxconn suicides?
-
The still-growing population of religious Apple followers would still buy an Apple iPad/Pod/gizmo even if they knew that humans were tortured in the manufacturing process, IMO.
-
I'm still recovering from a mild case of food poisoning (having a chinese girlfriend is hard on the digestive system). So excuse any fogginess in my reasoning.
By a strange quirk of coincidence, so am I :lol:
But I'm pretty sure you can't ignore the national average of suicides... One would expect to find 70 employees to kill themselves at Foxconn per year, regardless of working conditions. Maybe I have missed something here, but that is a simple stat, full stop?
Sure, that's what you'd expect if the national average were some target value companies aimed at (can you imagine that?), rather than being the aggregate value over a wide spectrum from the very good to the very bad. From what I gather, the current rate is higher than Foxconn's own track record. Perhaps this is not the case but the fact is that it is being regarded as something exceptional by the owner/management:
Terry Gou, the 59-year-old billionaire who founded the company, yesterday turned his plane around on the way to Taiwan to return to the plant. In a meeting with his senior management, Mr Gou allegedly said that he would not now leave the factory until the suicides stop.
Let's ignore what the article is hinting at and look at some actual facts. I refuse to accept a single source as definitive evidence for anything.
It's not just this article that is making the same hint, a quick google search and you'll find a dozen more :-/
-
The still-growing population of religious Apple followers would still buy an Apple iPad/Pod/gizmo even if they knew that humans were tortured in the manufacturing process, IMO.
Pretty much all the Crap we own is made by people being exploited. Working for a wage we couldn't use to buy a coffee with, in conditions that wouldn't be be acceptable for a farm in the 1960s...
But does that stop us? No, the bitter guilt is the price we pay for our lavish life styles. (The BBC recently produced an Entertainumentary called "Blood, Sweat and Luxuries" which was quite good at giving an example of how people suffer for us).
-
It always amazes me when people start reporting "numbers" of anything including people...
The hysteria at Longhua, where between 300,000 and 400,000 employees eat, work and sleep
This facility is building technological products and supposedly being operated like a forced labor camp and they can't figure out how many people they have working there? I'm not implying that there's nothing going on at Foxconn, but when I hear stuff like this it just sounds like poor reporting or someone did not do their homework.
It seems to me that the difference between 300,000 and 400,000 employees would be fairly noticeable. Just in toilet water and waste products alone, if not in number of iPads built.
The other burning question in my mind is just how many suicides are there in any population of 400,000 over a given period of time.
Regards,
AmigaEd
-
By a strange quirk of coincidence, so am I :lol:
Weird! :-o :) I should be more careful when eating deep fried balls of formless god-knows-what in a chinese restaurant. :(
Sure, that's what you'd expect if the national average were some target value companies aimed at (can you imagine that?), rather than being the aggregate value over a wide spectrum from the very good to the very bad. From what I gather, the current rate is higher than Foxconn's own track record. Perhaps this is not the case but the fact is that it is being regarded as something exceptional byt the owner/management:
Good point, but by that token suggests that Foxconn are serious about making the working conditions better... which negates the argument of the company being an evil sweatshop somewhat... no?
It's not just this article that is making the same hint, a quick googles
search and you'll find a dozen more :-/
I did a bit of research last week, which is where my figures come from... I haven't had a look recently... I'm probably gonna get some sleep now anyway, my head is splitting :)
-
I am not sure what I ate, but I have been trying to eat more healthily of late. Perhaps it's just a period of metabolic adjustment. Whatever the cause, it was hugely embarrassing to have my unnaturally fluid expulsions overheard by my future boss (though that might be for all of the next 24 hours) this morning when he happened to be stood outside the lavatory door.
-
And the new Android tablets coming out are going to be made where? Toledo Ohio? Newcastle England? Apple isn't alone here here and unless you live on an organic farm and are typing from a computer powered by whole grain magic dust, there is no point in pointing fingers.
Apple hating is about as tired as Microsoft hating was in 1999. Get over it and evolve...
-
Just out of curiosity where are the A-Eon and SAM boards being manufactured???
-
It is sad. I do like my new iPad quite a bit, but it saddens me to know that people are suffering in those factories to build the digital things we desire. I guess that's just 'business-as-usual' overseas. Watch the Walmart documentary, it really woke me up. These people are basically living at the factories, have to pay rent to live there, if they live outside they are still forced to pay rent.. How could another human being knowingly treat another like this, and be ok with it? :(
-
I will buy one, but only when they have a built in camera and there is a working replacement for Flash. I can't understand why a supposedly creative and Pioneering company like Apple didn't think to put someting as obvious and simple as a web camera on the thing, I can only guess it is because they want to leave it another generation or two so they can milk maximum $$$ by upgrades from loyal customers.
-
It is sad. I do like my new iPad quite a bit, but it saddens me to know that people are suffering in those factories to build the digital things we desire. I guess that's just 'business-as-usual' overseas. Watch the Walmart documentary, it really woke me up. These people are basically living at the factories, have to pay rent to live there, if they live outside they are still forced to pay rent.. How could another human being knowingly treat another like this, and be ok with it? :(
Just like American mining companies in the 19th century. I wonder what will happen to the global economy once worldwide worker safety standards match those that we have in the West.
-
Its a good thing no other company has its electronics manufactured in china.... wait.. oh.. awkward
The simple truth is.. people in the west want luxury goods for absurdly low prices. Those prices mean someone has to be exploited to produce said good.
-
Weird! :-o :) I should be more careful when eating deep fried balls of formless god-knows-what in a chinese restaurant. :(
Sounds like pot stickers. Currently, I'm not dating a Chinese woman. I gave them up after the ex-fiancee (you can actually see a pic of me with her on the Faces of Amiga.org from way back), but since I have a clearer head, ie not dating a Chinese woman, I can mediate this dispute between the two of you. ;)
-
Sounds like pot stickers. Currently, I'm not dating a Chinese woman. I gave them up after the ex-fiancee (you can actually see a pic of me with her on the Faces of Amiga.org from way back), but since I have a clearer head, ie not dating a Chinese woman, I can mediate this dispute between the two of you. ;)
Where has faces gone?
-
My favourite is the factories making knock off designer goods that they normally do legit. They can get some of their own back from exploitation.
-
You know one of annoying thing is, if Gateway held up it vision of Amiga, we might of beaten competition.
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/webpad1.html
As for swepshops it just the way of the world, I dont agree with it and be than happy to pay a little extra for my products to know it has been made in better environment, but many people arnt and there always be one company willing to undercut all the others to offer the product cheaper. One thing I find even more funny is the fact that they keep going on about the environment, help cut pollution and cut the emission, but where is most of our products made, in China where they couldn't care less, out of sight out of mind I guess.
-
Where has faces gone?
Dunno. Whabang was hosting it last time IIRC?
-
Once you get your head around the iPad as content-viewing device and not content-creation device, the iPad makes sense. Once the newspapers and magazines, and book publishers get on board its popularity will grow. Murdoch has already said viewing newspapers online will not be free.
-
Whats apple? whats ipad?
-
Its a good thing no other company has its electronics manufactured in china.... wait.. oh.. awkward
The simple truth is.. people in the west want luxury goods for absurdly low prices. Those prices mean someone has to be exploited to produce said good.
OK now that isn't quite the correct focus here... We are not to blame because we demand "Absurdly Low Prices".. We have become ACCUSTOMED to a particular price point that has been created by companies trying to sell their wares and obtain a decent profit on them. They are entitled to earning a profit, and the cutthroat business practices they employ cause a snowball effect that just keeps the prices at a very low point so we the public will buy. NOBODY is going to pay twice as much for an item. As long as there are people willing to work in what we consider poor conditions, there will be a company that will utilize them to further cut costs and sell their item to the public and make a better profit.
In a perfect world, these factories would not be run in this manner, all companies would play fair, and the costs for a particular item would balance out at an appropriate price point. It would definitely be a higher price point and sales would also be fewer, but it would balance itself out.
Unfortunately this isn't going to happen and companies are forced to do business in a world where it is becoming increasingly difficult to make a profit without going overseas...
-
Weird! :-o :) I should be more careful when eating deep fried balls of formless god-knows-what in a chinese restaurant. :(
Should get her to cook it at home where you can hand pick the ingredients ;)
-
Once you get your head around the iPad as content-viewing device and not content-creation device, the iPad makes sense. Once the newspapers and magazines, and book publishers get on board its popularity will grow. Murdoch has already said viewing newspapers online will not be free.
Well he's the only one that thinks that, BBC news will always be free, and a little more professional compared to the toilet paper Murdoch sells to lowbrow commoners all over the UK as a newspaper :)
The iPad's biggest problem is the fact it is not running a proper full blown OS, it's too small for some tasks and too big for other tasks. Because it has an Apple badge it will sell. But ultimately instead of an OS X touch tablet I think this is a mistake.....except for them as the Appstore goes Kerchings many millions of times more an hour ;)
-
The simple truth is.. people in the west want luxury goods for absurdly low prices. Those prices mean someone has to be exploited to produce said good.
The only time I've seen remotely cheap Apple products is when they have a cracked screen!
Low prices <> Apple...they're the king of overcharging! There is plenty of scope within Apple's OTT profit margins to take their business elsewhere. We are not talking about cheap tacky ASUS netbooks here made on a hairline profit margin really.
-
I would prefer that Apple, and in fact every company operating in the US, do all their manufacturing right here in the US. The story goes that US employees would refuse to work for low wages so product prices would increase. I would be okay with with paying higher prices for 100% domestic manufactuered goods though, as the social benefits would be immense. But I'm in the minority.
However what we would then see is the liberal outcry that jobs are being taken away from non-domestic workers overseas for whom unemployment may have much worse ramifications.
There is no win-win situation. Even if you replaced all manual labor with robots you would still have unions complaining.
-
iPad is not worth a life... but a pinkie maybe?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20002958-71.html
-
I would prefer that Apple, and in fact every company operating in the US, do all their manufacturing right here in the US. The story goes that US employees would refuse to work for low wages so product prices would increase. I would be okay with with paying higher prices for 100% domestic manufactuered goods though, as the social benefits would be immense. But I'm in the minority.
However what we would then see is the liberal outcry that jobs are being taken away from non-domestic workers overseas for whom unemployment may have much worse ramifications.
There is no win-win situation. Even if you replaced all manual labor with robots you would still have unions complaining.
I would (and do) happily pay over twice the price for Fair Trade products. It would be nice to have this option for all electronics. The fact is that "inflation" is almost flat (in the US) only because electronics keep dropping in price while many necessities (such as food) go up. Electronics are now absurdly low in price and the average Westerner apparently has an insatiable appetite for gadgets that most don't really need -- or even want 1-2 years down the road. Every purchase you make is an ethical choice, like it or not.
-
Karlos,
Thank you for posting this.. I have not purchased items manufactured in China for over 10years now....not an easy task to say the least.
Rich
ny
Ok. I don't like apple a great deal, that is no secret. However, I know that a lot of people buy into their vision and the queues outside apple stores suggest many people don't share my opinion.
There was a lot of buzz over the iPad recently. Personally I don't see the point of it. To my mind, it's the least useful intersection possible between the iPhone and a notebook. There are no applications it can run that a notebook can't run faster, neither is it a phone or a convenient mobile form factor for GPS etc. Anyway, these are all technical reasons I think it's a pile of hyped up overgrown ipod touch.
So, I must have been living in a vacuum lately because somehow I missed this story. If the above criticism of the iPad doesn't put you off (and let's face it, if you like apple stuff, it won't), I am sure this will:
Courtesy of the torygraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7773011/A-look-inside-the-Foxconn-suicide-factory.html)...
It would seem that the people there are simply being driven mad by the stress of working conditions:
I think we got too used to the idea that sweatshops were all busy making sports clothing and footballs...
To be fair to Apple, Foxconn don't just make their stuff; many hardware companies are happy to delegate their production to them.
I just thought apple, with their self-aggrandizing "cult of better" hyperbole might "think different" when it comes to sweatshop labour. I guess not.
-
Apple products really look cheap compared to an X1000...
The only time I've seen remotely cheap Apple products is when they have a cracked screen!
Low prices <> Apple...they're the king of overcharging! There is plenty of scope within Apple's OTT profit margins to take their business elsewhere. We are not talking about cheap tacky ASUS netbooks here made on a hairline profit margin really.
-
Apple products really look cheap compared to an X1000...
I think you forgot to encase your post in tags. An X1000 "same tower design since 1990" garage-a-tronics case up against an aluminum 27" iMac in terms of quality of construction and design aesthetics? Wow...
-
Interesting point, looking at the design you'd expect the Mac to be much more expensive, yet of course it's the X1000 that is...
I think you forgot to encase your post in tags. An X1000 "same tower design since 1990" garage-a-tronics case up against an aluminum 27" iMac in terms of quality of construction and design aesthetics? Wow...
-
Interesting point, looking at the design you'd expect the Mac to be much more expensive, yet of course it's the X1000 that is...
I am out of the loop on the X1000 but like the current "Amiga" systems out, I don't see how it is going to sell with a price point north of an iMac or any other computer out there. The nostalgia thing can only go so far.