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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: pkupcik on May 26, 2010, 04:06:54 AM
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Hi,
Back in the early 90s I used to own A500 with Commodore monitor. Now I'm thinking about purchasing A1200 to have a little flashback and have some fun with Amiga games. Naturally I need some help, advice regarding what I needed to buy. Here's my situation.
I live in the USA (NTSC) and intend to connect the A1200 to two of my TVs. TV1 is Pioneer Kuro Plasma and that one seem to be able to accept PAL and NTSC resolutions and 50/60hz refresh rates on composite, component, DVI and HDMI inputs. It also has VGA input, but that one needs 60hz or more. My second TV is a Panasonic Plasma and this one only accepts NTSC signal via S-video, component or HDMI; this should be my primary TV for the A1200, even though it has fewer connectivity options compared to the Pioneer.
Now the question is, how should I hook this up. I was going to buy a PAL A1200 from AmigaKit, should I instead by trying to locate used NTSC version of A1200? I think I've read somewhere that NTSC Amiga's have problems with some PAL games anyway? If I buy the PAL A1200, would something like Indivision AGA help? I'm intrigued by it's capability to support higher, progressive resolutions in workbench for the few times that I might use it. It does however only have VGA output, which only one of my TVs has and that requires 60hz, which I've read the Indivision has problem with as the games tend to get jumpy. So am I maybe better off buying some high quality s-video PAL to NTSC converter? I'm really lost somewhat by the various output types and frequencies on the Amiga. It seems that workbench uses one type of setup and games a different setup. Maybe I could attach some VGA to component or HDMI converter on top of the Indivision VGA connector.
My hopes are that I can get reasonably quality viewing experience with both games and workbench. What do I need to accomplish that on NTSC devices. I'm looking for off-the-shelf solutions, converters and hopefully not something where I have circuit boards hanging out the back of the Amiga.
I'm hoping that any video related expenses should not exceed $400 - Indivision, converters, cables, etc. Connecting to any other display device is currently not an option, it has to be one or both of the TVs I mentioned.
I would appreciate any advice you may offer.
Thank you,
Pavel
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Get the Indivision for your A1200 and connect it to the VGA input of TV-1
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When ever they become available again.
Also I would suggest the PAL system. It'll save you a lot of heart ache in the long run as the majority of good software is from across seas and can have screwed up timing like with music programs when running on an NTSC system.
Granted you can hold down your mice buttons and boot into PAL mode, but that's a pain in the arse.
Also some LCD Flat screens will not display the Amiga at all, such as my Sylvania here. It seems to be O.K. with my PAL Atari 130XE, but hates the Amiga. :(
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I would stick with an NTSC machine and use the PAL boot option (Hold both mouse buttons down). Also there is a program you can put on your workbench that can switch your screen mode between PAL/NTSC by double clicking it prob is i just can't remember the name of it lol, I'll bet it's on AMInet tho, so you could search and find it on there.
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I would stick with an NTSC machine and use the PAL boot option (Hold both mouse buttons down).
Forgive my ignorance, but what would I gain by having NTSC A1200? I assume it would allow me to connect the composit video output to NTSC TV. Is there anything else I would gain to potentially get better S-video or VGA connectivity to NTSC screens? Are there any disadvantages of having NTSC Amiga. Will I be able to play PAL games? If I have to switch to PAL to play Pal games, what have I gained by buying NTSC Amiga. These are honest questions, I really don't know.
Thank you.
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My advice is to get a Commodore 1084S monitor. Commodore is not racist against Americans and does not ban then from using PAL mode. You can happily display NTSC or PAL and switch from one to the other as you wish.
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Connecting to an NTSC tv will still give you trouble with PAL games and software. Monitor is better or one of the various solutions that allow youto use a VGA monitor
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The most compatible Amiga to buy out of the choice of NTSC or PAL is PAL.
However, it will not be compatible with the majority of North American televisions as they dont accept PAL input.
So an Indivision 1200 would be an ideal option, the only problem is that we are expecting the new production run now in the fall of this year (hopefully ready for Amiwest). This is due to the new FPGA chip that is used is currently in constraint.
So an option maybe to get a second hand RGB monitor to use until then.
Hope this helps!
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Thank you everyone. So it looks like the best option is PAL A1200. For now I should be able to connect it via composite output to my Pioneer TV as it accepts PAL composite signal. Then in Q3 order Indivision AGA and start using VGA. I assume that the composite signal should be ok quality wise for the games, workbench will probably look horrible, but that's not the priority for now.
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Wrong Post. Sorry.
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failing that, there is this:
http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
Combined with an adapter for amiga monitor port to vga (amigakit sells these I believe, and vesalia does as well), and a male to male vga cable, you are in business.
It has a bit of ghosting in workbench but works a charm for games and seems fine with deluxepaint though I didnt mess with it that much.
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My advice is to get a Commodore 1084S monitor. Commodore is not racist against Americans and does not ban then from using PAL mode. You can happily display NTSC or PAL and switch from one to the other as you wish.
Urm. 'American' isn't a race... I have a 1084S and an Indivision ECS. The Indivision is far superior to the 1084S. I suspect the AGA version is likewise better.
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failing that, there is this:
http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
Combined with an adapter for amiga monitor port to vga (amigakit sells these I believe, and vesalia does as well), and a male to male vga cable, you are in business.
It has a bit of ghosting in workbench but works a charm for games and seems fine with deluxepaint though I didnt mess with it that much.
Thanks for the suggestion. What do you think about this device:
http://www.ambery.com/rgrgtotvcosc.html
It looks like it can convert the RGB signal to S-video, which may be easier to use on TVs that don't have VGA port.
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The main question would be if it'd allow PAL to be converted to NTSC or vice versa. Without that, you're propably going to have issues still on a tv
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@Amigakit - can you clarify... when you say new FPGA does this mean the new version will have features otherwise unavailable in the older production run beacuse they are using a new larger FPGA for the new production run? If so what new features?
@runequester - NTSC or PAL is irrelevant with the Indivision. Indivision outputs VGA, VGA is PAL\NTSC agnostic... Hope This Helps...
The main question would be if it'd allow PAL to be converted to NTSC or vice versa. Without that, you're propably going to have issues still on a tv
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Right OK isn't RGB SCART essentially the same as component video? ie 15khz not 32khz horizontal refresh? Whether your TV set supports 50hz over component is another matter but suspect quality brands from major Japanese companies will do.
I suspect after a little googling that you can indeed use the RGB SCART signals in some form to connect via the component input of Plasma/LCD TVs. The circuitry will certainly be in the TV to accept said signal, it's just that USA doesn't use the actual SCART connector as a standard. All HD TVs have pretty much identical insides nowadays regardless of whether they're destined for shops in the UK/US/Japan. Would cost way to much to do bespoke PAL controller/input boards for LCD/Plasma HD sets sold here to add extra essential 50hz optional modes for our SD TV equipment to be connected, and many cable/satellite boxes still only use SCART RGB. In 60hz mode it will definitely work via the RGB-A output of the Amiga.
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Living in PAL land myself, but have relatives living overseas in America I've found that a fair proportion of American TVs accept and handle a PAL signal correctly. I think it has to do with the Chinese factory that made the TV, some swap out too much of the signal processing hardware or obscure it, some don't.
Remember the screens the same whether bound for regular PAL countries or non-PAL (mainly NTSC) countries, it's the tuner that's different. I find the same thing here in Oz, some TVs will take NTSC, some won't. It's a bit of a crap shoot...
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Right OK isn't RGB SCART essentially the same as component video? ie 15khz not 32khz horizontal refresh? Whether your TV set supports 50hz over component is another matter but suspect quality brands from major Japanese companies will do.
I suspect after a little googling that you can indeed use the RGB SCART signals in some form to connect via the component input of Plasma/LCD TVs. The circuitry will certainly be in the TV to accept said signal, it's just that USA doesn't use the actual SCART connector as a standard. All HD TVs have pretty much identical insides nowadays regardless of whether they're destined for shops in the UK/US/Japan. Would cost way to much to do bespoke PAL controller/input boards for LCD/Plasma HD sets sold here to add extra essential 50hz optional modes for our SD TV equipment to be connected, and many cable/satellite boxes still only use SCART RGB. In 60hz mode it will definitely work via the RGB-A output of the Amiga.
If I understand you correctly, if make or buy an RGB to component cable adapter, I should be able to connect it to component inputs on my TV, as the signal is the same, just a different connector? I can confirm that my Pioneer TV does support both PAL and NTSC signals over component input.
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I just looked at my Pioneer Plasma specs and the VGA input says that it accepts the following:
Resolution: 576i
Hf (kHz):15.6
Vf (Hz): 50
Resolution:480i
Hf (kHz):15.8
Vf (Hz): 60
Do you think that it may be able to accept the VGA amiga output? I saw the 15.8kHz Hf and thought that maybe that's the key. Not sure what impact does the resolution have.
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Just to give everyone an update, I tried connecting my PAL A1200 to this device http://www.ambery.com/rgrgtotvcosc.html and it did not work at all, the signal was scrambled.
Then I tried this device http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html and the display is perfect. I simply bought the Amiga VGA connector, plugged it to the device and then plugged the device to my 4:3 LCD monitor and now I have great picture both in Workbench and Games. There is no ghosting, no weird over scan issues or anything else. The only limitation is that the device can only accept 15khz RGB signal, which means that you can only use the standard workbench resolutions, I'm using Pal High Res 640x256 and workbench looks great. The device automatically converts from PAL to NTSC.
The next thing I'm also going to try is SCART PAL RGB to HDMI NTSC converter that I ordered, but is on back-order now. That would allow me to have easier hookup to modern TVs and Hi-Fi Receivers.
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Forgive my ignorance, but what would I gain by having NTSC A1200? I assume it would allow me to connect the composit video output to NTSC TV. Is there anything else I would gain to potentially get better S-video or VGA connectivity to NTSC screens? Are there any disadvantages of having NTSC Amiga. Will I be able to play PAL games? If I have to switch to PAL to play Pal games, what have I gained by buying NTSC Amiga. These are honest questions, I really don't know.
Thank you.
It's my opinion that you should just get a NTSC unit if you can. For one, it will be compatible with all American TVs/LCDs and such and will boot to NTSC by default, saving you the hassles to having to switch to NTSC to boot the damn thing. Also a lot of games will boot and run on a NTSC system, even PAL games! Yes sometimes you lose about an inch of display at the bottom but it does boot and even runs faster! Most PAL games infact use a NTSC screen anyway and don't take advantage of the higher resolution leaving a gap at the bottom! (Chaos Engine AGA) But of course there are a few PAL games that *REQUIRE* you boot to a PAL Mode to even run or display correctly. For those you simply have to use a PAL display. But like I said, unlike what others will have you believe, that is the exception not the rule!
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It's my opinion that you should just get a NTSC unit if you can. For one, it will be compatible with all American TVs/LCDs and such and will boot to NTSC by default, saving you the hassles to having to switch to NTSC to boot the damn thing. Also a lot of games will boot and run on a NTSC system, even PAL games! Yes sometimes you lose about an inch of display at the bottom but it does boot and even runs faster! Most PAL games infact use a NTSC screen anyway and don't take advantage of the higher resolution leaving a gap at the bottom! (Chaos Engine AGA) But of course there are a few PAL games that *REQUIRE* you boot to a PAL Mode to even run or display correctly. For those you simply have to use a PAL display. But like I said, unlike what others will have you believe, that is the exception not the rule!
It seems that some people say get NTSC there will be only very few problems and some say get PAL to avoid plenty of NTSC problems. The decision was rather easy as only PAL Amiga is being sold as new - whether that was the best decision I don't know. The converter I bought is very convenient though, small, not too expensive and high quality output, I also plan using it for my 8bit ZX Spectrum 128k computer.
I did just now try to play Lotus 2 in NTSC mode (switched during Amiga boot) and it played correctly and more importantly it covered the full monitor screen and not just the top 4/5 of the screen. It did seem to play somewhat faster, I guess that's because of the 50 vs 60hz refresh rate.
Is there a way to enable NTSC mode by default on the PAL A1200?
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If you want PAL output on a NTSC amiga AGA system you just need to pull pin 41 of the Alice chip and connect to a 4.7k ohm resistor to 5 volts.
I remember a lot of AGA stuff switched to PAL on AGA systems if they needed PAL.
It was more of the OCS/ECS that did not although later on ECS game would switch to PAL a lot also.
I use to my TIMM monitor in a "PAL" mode as well as a 1084. It worked but I never saw all the display as it was all moved too low. Not until I got the indivision and used VGA output from that did I see what I was missing even when I was running PAL on a 1084.
For example. Pinball Dream. I never saw the scroller at bottom of the option screen to choose tables until I used indivision.
FYI
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Thanks for the reply Omnicron10. I just found out that I can force each WHDLoad game into PAL or NTSC by using the TOOLTYPE option. I think this will be a sufficient solution for games, for workbench there are plenty of PAL/NTSC modes. Thank you.
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That is correct. Since ECS, all amigas can do PAL timing and 50 hz output.
The issues is the actual output is more like PAL-N. 50hz display with a NTSC subcarrier when using a A520 or like device.
The RGB 1084 output works but cuts off the bottom of the screen a lot. Not enough to make it not usefull but more than I would like now knowing what I know.
Enjoy!