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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: outlawal2 on May 20, 2010, 02:25:10 AM
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OK, received my new Deneb today and installed it per the instructions but when I try to run Trident, it errors out saying it can't load mui.library.. This needs mui to run...
What the heck? Any ideas on how to fix this and why running the entire install as directed does not copy over all necessary files to use the hardware?
Pls advise...
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jut download mui 3.8 user from archive aminet and install it bevor you run deneb software. simple as that.
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Alrighty then I will do that.... As soon as I figure out HOW to do that since without the Deneb I can't get to the internet... Makes downloading a fix somewhat problematic!
LOL
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It's a safe assumption that you have a floppy drive. The MUI archive isn't very big and I'm sure that you could transfer a set of .rar or .7z files via the floppy. ;)
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MUI is on pretty much every cover CD ever, if you have some of those kicking around. If not, you can work around your lack of MUI using the shell. Use AddUSBHardware and AddUSBClasses to get going (see the Poseidon docs for usage).
Although, if you don't have MUI, I'm not sure how you'll get online either (unless you use AWeb).
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Excuse me for stating the obvious - but MUI and ANY other necessary programs, should be included with Deneb on a friggin' floppy or two or at the very least OR "hidden" inside the protected RAM on the card itself. DUH. The few people left supporting this platform on the level they do should have realized this loooooong ago. As if AmigaOS users don't have enough problems getting this expensive legacy shit to work on their systems without being forced to jump through cryptic hoops, eventually and accidentally getting this stuff to "almost" meet their expectations, if they're lucky.
MUI? Magic User Interface?? First time I heard of that (early 2000's), I thought WTF? A program that sorta/kinda replaces Amiga GUI/Intuition or whatever - that seemingly does nothing different, takes forever to load and utilizes a squished screenmode. Great. I still don't understand why Trident *needs* this program in order to run - but I'm sure there's a good explanation - there always is. lol
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Yeah, I have to agree with you, Save2600 .... If MUI is needed, it should have been included with the software. Funny thing is, a number of commercial progs. DO come with all needed software. I'm pretty sure that DrawStudio had an option to install MUI.... Of course, I had MUI already.... Years ago, ordering from an Amiga PD place in Texas, I mentioned that I wanted to get online with my miggy someday, they just sent a disk of MUI 3.8 along with my order.....
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Excuse me for stating the obvious - but MUI and ANY other necessary programs, should be included with Deneb on a friggin' floppy or two or at the very least OR "hidden" inside the protected RAM on the card itself. DUH. The few people left supporting this platform on the level they do should have realized this loooooong ago. As if AmigaOS users don't have enough problems getting this expensive legacy shit to work on their systems without being forced to jump through cryptic hoops, eventually and accidentally getting this stuff to "almost" meet their expectations, if they're lucky.
In general, we decided to get rid of disks as they are no way of safely importing data to 20year old machines anymore. You don't get hands on real DD disks, and with "faked" DD disks (namely HD disks) old drives have shown more problems than you want to support.
Seems like you are unhappy. And honestly said, MUI can be expected to be installed as standard nowadays.
And even if it is not - if you simply insert the DENEB, a fail-safe Trident (Zorro II or Zorro III PIO) will automagically start from FlashROM. So you can easily (even if you have a broken disk drive, which is quite common also nowadays due to old hardware, or no disk drive at all) download the MUI archive on some PC and transfer it via USB stick to your Amiga. Of course, if you don't have fat95 installed... but sorry, we cannot provide a solution for every system out there.
Wait... for some reasons fat95 is also included in the FlashROM... seems we have also thought about this issue.
Oh, by the way, you don't need Trident to start that "expensive legacy shit" (nice expression, BTW). Apparently you didn't also take a look into that expensive legacy shit documentation which explains you easily on how to start Poseidon without MUI being installed.
So if you rely on the FlashROM autostarting Poseidon you can also avoid typing in the few lines needed to get Poseidon started in CLI/Shell.
Just to put this right: there *is* everything included in DENEB to get it into operation.
Just shaking head... you could have asked our support easily by mail, but you prefer to rant on that "expensive legacy shit" in a forum first. Not a very constructive way of handling things.
Anyway, if you still have problems with our "expensive legacy shit" products please feel free to contact us by mail, we try to help all customers as good as we can (and up to now, we could solve all problems, either by guiding people, or by releasing free firmware upgrade for our "expensive legacy shit" product to solve bugs in other hardware in our users systems).
Michael
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Alrighty then I will do that.... As soon as I figure out HOW to do that since without the Deneb I can't get to the internet... Makes downloading a fix somewhat problematic!
Poseidon can be started without MUI by only shell commands (as stated already in a different answer here).
Or you use the FlashROM feature to get a fully running Poseidon without any user install and/or intervention.
The DENEB is built in a way to add working USB support into the Amiga system without installing even a single file.
If you have a support USB ethernet dongle you *can* go online even without MUI (I mentioned the Poseidon AmigaGuide file already?).
BTW, without web brower you cannot download the MUI (or even worse: your web browser may also rely on MUI, or classact which may also be missing on your system). So even if we would include a disk with MUI, you would complain next on the "missing" web browser? Or the "missing" USB ethernet dongle?
Michael
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@Michael
+1
No, I think the complaint may be that no TCP/IP stack is bundled with your legacy shit. Not even a Miami keyfile! You should at least have included that!
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Miami and its keys... LOL! Oh c'mon. No real disrespect to Michael or his products. The phrase 'expensive legacy shit' is just tongue in cheek and wasn't even specifically directed to his gear. More like the computers themselves and the investment they represent. Just my dark humor. Didn't mean to infer that anything was "shit" or for anyone to get bent. Yes, the frustration level can be high at first. But after fiddle-screwing around, posting questions or dealing with manufacturers, we usually almost always end up getting whatever to work. The support that way cannot be denied and yes, we all appreciate the continued upgrades to firmware as well :)
And for the record, I'm happy with any and all of these new products from Michael, Jens, Chris, etc. Support has been great, when/if I ever had a problem. Was mirroring the frustration of a new Deneb user is all. Just seems to be a pattern that crops up every month or so, why they have trouble getting it installed. Missing MUI program (whether it's missing on their hard drive or missing from the install software) is almost always the culprit. I just think it would be easier to include MUI in some shape or form than to be fielding the same issues time and time again.
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Excuse me for stating the obvious - but MUI and ANY other necessary programs, should be included with Deneb on a friggin' floppy or two or at the very least OR "hidden" inside the protected RAM on the card itself. DUH. The few people left supporting this platform on the level they do should have realized this loooooong ago. As if AmigaOS users don't have enough problems getting this expensive legacy shit to work on their systems without being forced to jump through cryptic hoops, eventually and accidentally getting this stuff to "almost" meet their expectations, if they're lucky.
MUI? Magic User Interface?? First time I heard of that (early 2000's), I thought WTF? A program that sorta/kinda replaces Amiga GUI/Intuition or whatever - that seemingly does nothing different, takes forever to load and utilizes a squished screenmode. Great. I still don't understand why Trident *needs* this program in order to run - but I'm sure there's a good explanation - there always is. lol
Good Morning! Thank you for that as I felt much the same way... (And interestingly enough I too am from Wisconsin!) I will be tackling this issue later today as I have to borrow a floppy drive from work...
Reading some of the replies, it appears that I SHOULD be able to use a flash drive as well as a network dongle but I did try these and neither one works... As for the documentation, using the enclosed install routines, docs seem to be strewn across the drive in multiple locations and frankly I didn't take the time to do an exhaustive search for them all yet.. I was hoping for a quick hit fix.. Anyway, I did not mean to cause any issues with my post and I didn't mean any disrespect...
One thing I will mention though... Someone mentioned that all installs today will have MUI installed... Hmmmmm.. Unfortunately my machne is a freshly installed OS where I started with 3.1 and then upgraded to 3.5 and then upgraded to 3.9.. I would assume that everything required would have been installed somewhere along the way.
It was not and this is the source of the frustration. No huge deal but something to keep in mind when assuming an individual's configuration...
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From memory MUI is on the 3.9 cd
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MUI? Magic User Interface?? First time I heard of that (early 2000's), I thought WTF? A program that sorta/kinda replaces Amiga GUI/Intuition or whatever - that seemingly does nothing different, takes forever to load and utilizes a squished screenmode. Great. I still don't understand why Trident *needs* this program in order to run - but I'm sure there's a good explanation - there always is. lol
Typical uninformed drivel...
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MUI? Magic User Interface?? First time I heard of that (early 2000's), I thought WTF? A program that sorta/kinda replaces Amiga GUI/Intuition or whatever - that seemingly does nothing different, takes forever to load and utilizes a squished screenmode. Great. I still don't understand why Trident *needs* this program in order to run - but I'm sure there's a good explanation - there always is. lol
You had not hear about MUI until 2000? Were you hidding behind a rock? And what programs did you use in 2000 to connect to internet? Almost all Amiga internet software uses and used MUI. Didn't you use Miami, YAM, IBrowse, AmIRC, Amster (napster)...?
I guess you would also complain when a program required bgui, gtlayout, classact or any 3rd party library.
MUI is not a "program", it's a set of libraries and classes that allow Amiga coders to produce decent GUIs, something very difficult with crappy gadtools or other primitive graphic toolkits.
Have you ever tried out MUI examples? You have all kind of different classes, you have drag'n'drop everywhere and it's a pleasure from a programmer user point. You can set per-application preferences depending on the preferences you want
IIRC MUI3.8 is even included with AmigaOS3.9 as contribution.
BTW, MUI is not slow, try to build similar complex interfaces with Reaction and you will notice it. People who claim MUI is slow usually fill every gui element with textures and later complain about slowness.
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You had not hear about MUI until 2000? Were you hidding behind a rock? And what programs did you use in 2000 to connect to internet? Almost all Amiga internet software uses and used MUI. Didn't you use Miami, YAM, IBrowse, AmIRC, Amster (napster)...?
Nope, never used any of this stuff until the early to mid 2000's on an Amiga. I took a long reprieve doing anything "serious" on the Amiga starting in the early 90's when I was seduced by the 386's, 486's and eventually the 586's & AMDK6 of the time - so I totally missed out on all these new libs, plug-ins, etc.
I guess you would also complain when a program required bgui, gtlayout, classact or any 3rd party library.
At one time, of course! lol First time you have to go searching all over creation in order to get someone else's program to work, it's definitely an exercise! But that's become expected in the world of Amiga.
MUI is not a "program", it's a set of libraries and classes that allow Amiga coders to produce decent GUIs, something very difficult with crappy gadtools or other primitive graphic toolkits.
Have you ever tried out MUI examples? You have all kind of different classes, you have drag'n'drop everywhere and it's a pleasure from a programmer user point. You can set per-application preferences depending on the preferences you want
IIRC MUI3.8 is even included with AmigaOS3.9 as contribution.
BTW, MUI is not slow, try to build similar complex interfaces with Reaction and you will notice it. People who claim MUI is slow usually fill every gui element with textures and later complain about slowness.
Thanks for the explanations. I guess I get some of what MUI is supposed to be about (standardization and simplicity for programmers/end users), but am still "sticker shocked" when I see all the options available for some of these programs. I bet it's great from a programmers or developers point of view, but for an end user that was used to how most OS1.3-3.1 programs handled themselves, MUI at times seems to be "too much", too feature ridden almost.
And the slowness thing, no... always just use the plain and simple grey backgrounds. No fancy graphics and textures.
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I am a bit frustrated at where this thread has gone... I was simply asking for some help with an issue that I am having with the Deneb board... Now 2 pages of responses later there are comments like "Uninformed drivel" and "where have you been under a rock?"
No I haven't been under a rock, I have spent the last 20 years making my living supporting PC's, Servers, MACS and other various equipment. I asked a simple question on this forum because the folks here are knowledgeable and I have been out of the Amiga scene basically since 1992 or so... So give me a break here...
Also, someone mentioned that they thought MUI was on the 3.9 CD... I searched for it on the CD and could not locate it. (that certainly may be my issue, but the fact remains I can't find it.) I will take a look again this evening...
For those that are attempting to help I really appreciate it! For the rest that seem bent on pointing out my obvious ignorance... I am already painfully aware, that is why I am here... So please save the insults as I am not interested...
I ask now for everyone to please take a deep breath and please stop taking offense, and please stop offending... I am just looking for some guidance here..
Thanks!
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Partly my fault - sorry. Even though you took offense to some of those comments, they were directed at me. I can be abrasive sometimes, phrase things poorly and (usually) accidentally offend. A lot of the guys here are pretty passionate and understandably, so are the developers :)
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@outlawal2: dont bother. remeber this is a little world and not everything is as polished. you could even have more problem installing poseidon tools on a pure aga setup since the windows do not fit on standard noninterlaced screen, but nothing is impossible to solve. even if not exactly every case is foreseen deneb is a great product, i couldnt live without it anymore, imagine swapping floppies or burning cds everytime i need to exchange some mb of data with my pc which happens all the time. so, does evertyhing work yet?
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Also, someone mentioned that they thought MUI was on the 3.9 CD... I searched for it on the CD and could not locate it. (that certainly may be my issue, but the fact remains I can't find it.) I will take a look again this evening...
MUI is not on the AmigaOS 3.9 cdrom. If you are really stuck, I can send you free of any charge, a cdrom with a copy of mui. The only issue is that it will take from 10 to 20 days to arrive to you. :(
If you have a MAC or a PC near you with a cdwriter, you can even create the cdrom by yourself, and I can help you to get the needed files.
Just let me know! :)
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I am a bit frustrated at where this thread has gone... I was simply asking for some help with an issue that I am having with the Deneb board... Now 2 pages of responses later there are comments like "Uninformed drivel" and "where have you been under a rock?"
No I haven't been under a rock, I have spent the last 20 years making my living supporting PC's, Servers, MACS and other various equipment. I asked a simple question on this forum because the folks here are knowledgeable and I have been out of the Amiga scene basically since 1992 or so... So give me a break here...
Also, someone mentioned that they thought MUI was on the 3.9 CD... I searched for it on the CD and could not locate it. (that certainly may be my issue, but the fact remains I can't find it.) I will take a look again this evening...
For those that are attempting to help I really appreciate it! For the rest that seem bent on pointing out my obvious ignorance... I am already painfully aware, that is why I am here... So please save the insults as I am not interested...
I ask now for everyone to please take a deep breath and please stop taking offense, and please stop offending... I am just looking for some guidance here..
Thanks!
Sorry, I thought it was in the contributions directory like Picasso96.
You can download MUI 3.8 here: http://aminet.net/util/libs/mui38usr.lha
About Deneb install: remember to install fat95, the most important file is "fat95" handler that should be kept in SYS:L/
You could also install 3rd party filesystems from Marek Szyprowski to be able to read NTFS HDs http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/ntfs_0.9
Remember to download Poseidonv4.4 too http://www.platon42.de/files/usb/PoseidonV4.lha
Here you have some extra usb-ethernet drivers for Poseidon (may be outdated by Poseidonv4.4 so unpack them just in case your usb-ethernet adapter is not supported) http://aminet.net/package/driver/net/rtl8150eth
Here you have Luciferin4.1, handle it with care: http://www.platon42.de/files/usb/Luciferin.lha
PS: Since you are transfering files some 3rd party MUI classes (also known as MCCs) may be handy for some programs like NList, Betterstring, Texteditor... these can be downloaded from Aminet: http://aminet.net/search?query=mcc
IBrowse is one of the best browsers for OS3.x and uses MUI: http://www.ibrowse-dev.net/
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MUI is not on the AmigaOS 3.9 cdrom. If you are really stuck, I can send you free of any charge, a cdrom with a copy of mui. The only issue is that it will take from 10 to 20 days to arrive to you. :(
If you have a MAC or a PC near you with a cdwriter, you can even create the cdrom by yourself, and I can help you to get the needed files.
Just let me know! :)
If you know where I can find MUI online (Other than the aminet link listed) I would appreciate it. I downloaded the aminet file and unpacked it, burned it to a CD and when I tried to install it errored out with a line 299 error.. I tried unpacking, burning again on a completely different machine and still got the same error.. Sooo, 2 coasters later I am still stuck.. LOL
I also tried the MUI homepage and nearly all of the links fail, but 2 of them appear to work but then ask for a password.. Grrr...
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Sorry, I thought it was in the contributions directory like Picasso96.
You can download MUI 3.8 here: http://aminet.net/util/libs/mui38usr.lha
About Deneb install: remember to install fat95, the most important file is "fat95" handler that should be kept in SYS:L/
You could also install 3rd party filesystems from Marek Szyprowski to be able to read NTFS HDs http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/ntfs_0.9
Remember to download Poseidonv4.4 too http://www.platon42.de/files/usb/PoseidonV4.lha
Here you have some extra usb-ethernet drivers for Poseidon (may be outdated by Poseidonv4.4 so unpack them just in case your usb-ethernet adapter is not supported) http://aminet.net/package/driver/net/rtl8150eth
Here you have Luciferin4.1, handle it with care: http://www.platon42.de/files/usb/Luciferin.lha
PS: Since you are transfering files some 3rd party MUI classes (also known as MCCs) may be handy for some programs like NList, Betterstring, Texteditor... these can be downloaded from Aminet: http://aminet.net/search?query=mcc
IBrowse is one of the best browsers for OS3.x and uses MUI: http://www.ibrowse-dev.net/
Great info THANK YOU!
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If you know where I can find MUI online (Other than the aminet link listed) I would appreciate it. I downloaded the aminet file and unpacked it, burned it to a CD and when I tried to install it errored out with a line 299 error.. I tried unpacking, burning again on a completely different machine and still got the same error.. Sooo, 2 coasters later I am still stuck.. LOL
I also tried the MUI homepage and nearly all of the links fail, but 2 of them appear to work but then ask for a password.. Grrr...
Unpack it on your Amiga, not on your PC.
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Unpack it on your Amiga, not on your PC.
...and if it fails to install or work after that, be prepared to start messing with protection bits. Many times, these need to be enabled or checked before you can execute a file or install a program. Typical Amiga downloading fare.
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Unpack it on your Amiga, not on your PC.
Tried unpacking on 2 separate PC's.. No dice.. And then burned the file directory to CD and unpacked it on the Amiga itself. Still failed with the same error in line 299...
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Check your version of C:Installer - an old tends to throw out such error messages.
At least http://main.aminet.net/pub/aminet/util/misc/Installer-43_3.lha or newer is OK.
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Tried unpacking on 2 separate PC's.. No dice.. And then burned the file directory to CD and unpacked it on the Amiga itself. Still failed with the same error in line 299...
WinRAR can unpack LHA files more or less correctly (minus protection bits IIRC). As save2600 has commented other OSes have tendency to screw Amiga apps protection bits so unpack your Amiga stuff on your Amiga. If you insist on unpacking the files using PC then you may have to use "protect" amiga command to give the right flags to the file. Anyway that doesn't matter because you should unpack the files on your miggy. Update the installer as Zipper commented :-)
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Tried unpacking on 2 separate PC's.. No dice.. And then burned the file directory to CD and unpacked it on the Amiga itself. Still failed with the same error in line 299...
The MUI archive contains a file with a "smily" icon and a filename merely consisting of a space (" "). Some unpackers (AFAIR the ones supplied with OS >=3.5) will NOT unpack this file causing the installer to fail. If you have that problem, use the normal lha-tool from the Aminet via a standard shell prompt.
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About Deneb install: remember to install fat95, the most important file is "fat95" handler that should be kept in SYS:L/
And please use the provided installer script for fat95 instead of manually copying it, otherwise I will probably see people wondering about german error messages, which I am not responsible for :-P
Here you have some extra usb-ethernet drivers for Poseidon (may be outdated by Poseidonv4.4 so unpack them just in case your usb-ethernet adapter is not supported) http://aminet.net/package/driver/net/rtl8150eth
Indeed this driver is already included in the latest Poseidon V4.4 release.
Here you have Luciferin4.1, handle it with care: http://www.platon42.de/files/usb/Luciferin.lha
Note well that Luciferin also requires Luciferin, but can also do basic FlashRom modifications from a shell command line.
PS: Since you are transfering files some 3rd party MUI classes (also known as MCCs) may be handy for some programs like NList, Betterstring, Texteditor... these can be downloaded from Aminet: http://aminet.net/search?query=mcc
Note that no part of Poseidon or Luciferin will require third party MUI classes though.
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Excuse me for stating the obvious - but MUI and ANY other necessary programs, should be included with Deneb [...]
The main problem that has led the amiga into problems was that the gaming and app industry in the late 90ies still wrote games for unexpanded Amigas without faster CPU or graphic boards and RAM. As well noticed, the product description says: "comfortable control of USB stack by GUI (MUI) ". While it is not *necessary* for the product to work, because it nicely can be run from command line, too, I definetely see MUI as one of the GUI toolkit standards, if not THE toolkit standard, available for the Amiga for more than 15 years. There are thousands of Apps on Aminet using MUI and most don't even notice this fact in their descriptions. In fact, Poseidon would never have had any GUI that would resemble anything like it has now if it hadn't be for MUI.
Sorry, but somewhere the reasoning has to stop. And as such, I never would have considered and still don't consider including the MUI package in a Poseidon or Deneb software distribution. You might have noticed that the installer disk image for the Deneb is 99% full. The installer disk of the Subway is 100% full, also using tricks like hard links to drawer icons to squeeze a one or two kilobytes out, or removing all comments and surplus spaces from the installer script, just to have enough space for a new class or feature.
If we had used CDs, people probably would whine about not having a CD drive. Or have broken filesystems. Or whatever.
The requirements for Poseidon are always stated with a 68030+ CPU. Although it will actually run fine on a 68020. But those people usually don't have a fast ram expansions. Last month we had somebody trying to use Poseidon on a 2 MB total ram machine. That's freaky!
MUI? Magic User Interface?? First time I heard of that (early 2000's), I thought WTF? A program that sorta/kinda replaces Amiga GUI/Intuition or whatever - that seemingly does nothing different, takes forever to load and utilizes a squished screenmode.
Or, you could read the fine manual. MUI provides font sensitive, fully customizable, auto-layouting user interfaced with enhanced GUI elements, easily expandable by object oriented custom classes. And for developers, this easy-to-use GUI toolkit is *unmatched* on *any* operating system or platform so far. Not by qt, surely not swing, not RCP, not cocoa etc...
It's okay that you never heard of MUI, but then not really informing yourself and rather posting phrases like the ones above, somewhat disqualifies you, which I think, is a bit sad.
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It's okay that you never heard of MUI, but then not really informing yourself and rather posting phrases like the ones above, somewhat disqualifies you, which I think, is a bit sad.
Great write up as usual Chris, but the phrase you're talking about was to be taken in the context of my thoughts, the very first time I was exposed to MUI. After taking a long sabbatical from Amiga, coming back and using OS3.5/3.9 in the early 2000's, I was initially surprised to see there was such an "add on" or replacement GUI toolkit instead of utilizing pull down windows or config screens natively in Workbench or a given programs own windows or config screen. As a user that was used to programs that were shipped either complete with all necessary files or just plain worked back in the ≤OS3.1 days, I come back to discover that *AFTER* I purchased and installed OS3.9, that you still have to hunt and peck for all these extra files, programs, libs, classes, plug-ins, whatever - before you can even install some of these other 3rd party programs that were written before 3.9 was released. YAM for instance. Makes sense why you might need to add new libs & classes for stuff released afterwards and that's part of the Amiga experience we all know and 'love'. :)
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nevermind... :)