Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: ElPolloDiabl on April 06, 2010, 02:02:42 PM
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How about a one stop shop for Amiga software? It might encourage people to write software if they can sell it for a few bucks.
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Lack of volume.
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Lack of volume.
What? Speak up... :D
Sorry. I'll get my coat.
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How about a one stop shop for Amiga software? It might encourage people to write software if they can sell it for a few bucks.
We sort of do... Aminet...
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what?? you must be a Mac user...we have Aminet & OS4depot and are capable of installing, editing our own' apps' thank you very much
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what?? you must be a Mac user...we have Aminet & OS4depot and are capable of installing, editing our own' apps' thank you very much
Best post of today! i could not say it better myself :) rep++ to you :]
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It's comming for AOS,mos and AROS. Be patient.
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First we need to have an "app" to buy.
We already have lots of applications, but no "apps". Maybe someone could make an "app" first to sell. Then we can do an "app-store".
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This sounds like a dumb question but what constitutes an "app"?
Weed
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For years we've wanted to make an online store like this but focused on games, kind of like Steam or XBox Live, and we want to call it Underground Arcade. It would host free and commercial games, updates, graphical information about the games with screenshots (Aminet STILL doesn't have screenshots), and would be free to use for hosting your games, free to use to browse, you would only ever pay for the registered and commercial games, demos and freeware games would be free. Commercial games would have the option for a cheap download, or a full price boxed version which would be mailed to you, and in the mean time the full version would be available to download for you while you wait for the physical package.
It's just a dream though, I don't know ANYONE who would want to help set something like this up, I've been bugging people on Amiga forums for years about it (before the App Store became popular). I'm sure if we have a place like this, we will see more Amiga game releases. For example, the authors of Babylonian Twins have been trying to work out a way to digitally distribute their A500 game for ages but nothing exists for them to use. If Underground Arcade was up and running, we could host it there. We also want to have a game developer forum there for anyone interested in making new Amiga games to join in, learn and produce something with a supportive team, instead of trying to go about it alone. Underground Arcade would be for all Amiga flavours, not just OS4 like OS4Depot and AmiBoing.
The problem is I can't set all of this up at the same time as continuing on the massive load of other Amiga projects I'm working on, including a really good game which I hope to distribute from the Underground Arcade site some day.
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Dont we actually need proper new hardware first? LOL And no im not talking about the AMIGA X1000 /Amiga one/ or some other 3rd party cobbled together half arsed over price/under powered power pc clone motherboard that comes out so offten.
I just wish I had 400 million to start a new amiga corporation and take on Bill Gates..lol we can dream....just imagine a different reality in which Commodore never went bust, windows did'nt take over the world and where in every Office and home sat an AMIGA ....:afro: peace out to all my fellow amigans
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Idee isn't bad.
Setting up web store is quite easy task and yes, founder wouldn't get rich with it but...
But there would still lot of work to do.
Prices should be economy level so that even small programs and not so professional quality could sell, just 1 - 10 euros.
But it would support amiga software developement eventually and maybe even get some old developers back with their suspended projects.
I mean few euros is more than zero euro?
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Aminet STILL doesn't have screenshots
That's wrong. Aminet has option for screenshots, but hardly anyone bothers to use it, hence it mostly just says "No screenshot available". Alot of stuff uploaded to aminet is also quite pointless to make screenshots of, and "forcing" people to make screenshots is just silly.
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Kolla, please show me how to upload screenshots to Aminet. The "feature" has indeed been there for quite some time, but as far as I'm aware it has never been implemented, and there is no way to upload a screenshot with your software and readme file.
Don't tell me I'm wrong unless you can prove otherwise.
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underground arcade will happen! all it'll take is a few solid games, a nice forum, and crossed fingers!!!
I intend to be part of the solid - games, part of the equation.....
:)
and if needed, can assist with the forumy portions.
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Dont we actually need proper new hardware first? LOL And no im not talking about the AMIGA X1000 /Amiga one/ or some other 3rd party cobbled together half arsed over price/under powered power pc clone motherboard that comes out so offten.
I just wish I had 400 million to start a new amiga corporation and take on Bill Gates..lol we can dream....just imagine a different reality in which Commodore never went bust, windows did'nt take over the world and where in every Office and home sat an AMIGA ....:afro: peace out to all my fellow amigans
There are a few attempts in the works such as the FPGA-Arcade based on the MiniMig and the Natami project. We'll have to see if either of them take hold on the market. These are 68k systems with AGA compatibility or better and working their way up!
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First, there would have to be some decent apps that Amiga users would want. And are there any serious Amiga developers still around who write quality apps for Amiga? What about a decent office suite, some video editing software, and a modern media player?
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There's probably an app for that...
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An app store is a relatively easy thing to create. That is not a problem.
There are a number of problems in sustaining a viable Amiga software market.
To have a market, which promotes commercial quality software development, we need a larger user base to warrant development costs.
Aminet, OS4Depot, Morphzone and the AROS Archives, while extremely useful and necessary at this point, effectively detract from a commercial app store.
The current AmigaOS4 hardware is too expensive to provide significant growth in the user base.
MorphOS users are only in a slightly better position in terms of hardware accessibility, but will inevitably hit a roadblock with Mac hardware.
AROS users typically want their apps to be not only open source but free.
68k users are in decline, although Minimig and Natami have the potential to hold that steady.
The propensity towards free open source ports limits the viability of new Amiga dedicated software development.
Apps that support all Amiga&alike platforms may be limited to the lowest common denominator, but would have access the the super-set of these user bases.
Taking it further, Apps/games, based on a cross platform toolkit, which aside from Amiga compatibility, can provide executables for iPhone/iPad, Windows, MacOS and Linux have an even greater chance of commercial success by leveraging these larger user bases.
I see a requirement for cross platform software architectures, if a developer is to have any chance of making their development costs back.
I am currently working full time on such a platform agnostic application architecture, but out of necessity, I am focused on those other platforms first.
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Kolla, please show me how to upload screenshots to Aminet. The "feature" has indeed been there for quite some time, but as far as I'm aware it has never been implemented, and there is no way to upload a screenshot with your software and readme file.
Don't tell me I'm wrong unless you can prove otherwise.
I agree with Cammy 4096%
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There will no be comercial quality programs any time in near future.
But there are lots of hobby programmers who would get some benefit to such a store.
That wouldn't be bad thing. Many of us could pay couple of euros/dollars for usefull software, even if it is not "comercial quality"
That way developers could get more interest to develop their software further.
Realism is allways good thing :)
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I repeat : ) We are working on it. Actually its just called app-browser.
You will be able to browse through categories like office,games and so on. You can use it to find free apps too. It will download and install them with one click.
One category is called commercial -> app-store
The appstore will also contain external links to commercial apps.
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3811&forum=2&post_id=32638#forumpost32638
It will be available for AOS,MOS and AROS.
The idea is to get a centralized market for all Amiga-like systems -> in theory it could lead to new smaller apps for all of us.
For the start there will be AMC and a big surprise.
Be patient : ) First AMC, then big surprise, then app-browser.
Regards,
Pascal
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the one-click install is a bit scary, Amiga os or Morphos doesn't have a 'default' location where software must be installed. I think it will be a nightmare to properly support various platforms.
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Not really, Because I would assume that the software installs everyhting in a central location no different to steam etc
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I think he means: Downloads it and starts the installation process.
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And howto handle shared libs? Version numbers?
What todo when to uninstall and the lib is used by multiple software packages?
If there's an appstore for the amiga, it also would need drm? (yuck)
Otherwise it won't be attractive for developers.
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First, there would have to be some decent apps that Amiga users would want. And are there any serious Amiga developers still around who write quality apps for Amiga? What about a decent office suite, some video editing software, and a modern media player?
http://www.airsoftsoftwair.de are active commercial amiga devs, but I think that's more because the software will still compile than anything else.
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The question here is we already have AmigaKit and Vesalia that sell a lot of stuff, but mainly hardware. BUT our problem now is not they can sell some hard and complements.
Our problem is we don't actually have a cheap and competitive platform to buy and develop software for.
On the other hand, AmigaKit and Vesalia shouls reach to an agreement with MorphOS and start selling refurbished MacMinis with MOS installed for a fair price.
Same with the new systems coming soon. Or the ARES Aros System.
And give support to the new systems that are coming up this year or nearby.
Sam440 is WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Nobody bought that, and nobody will at that price.
But refurbished minis with MOS? For a fair price, it's a quite competitive system.
If they sell enough systems, EVENTUALLY they will need a software on their site.
That's my oppinion. Maybe i'm crazy. XD
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The problem is twofold, Amiga lacks programmers and a good ide. I can build an complete iPhone/iPad app in the time that it takes me to just get all the library calls right in an Amiga app. iPhone/IPad development is as close as you can get to "instant gratification" in the software world currently. It's really in development that the old girl starts to show her age.
Apple got it right on both ends, the app store is brilliant and so are the XCode tools.
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Aminet STILL doesn't have screenshots
Correct. And this won't change anytime soon if everybody who dislikes something about Aminet just runs to the next forum, complains about it and announces his own competing service because Aminet STILL sucks so much.
Having ideas is not the problem, finding the time to implement them is. As it is, we're happy we can keep Aminet running (more or less), everything else is just an afterthought for now.
People with no partnership, no social life, no hobbies and lots of leet PHP skillz please apply for a job at aminet@aminet.net.
Back to topic:
About the last thing the Amiga needs is an "app store". Instead of encouraging more commercialisation - which in our case just means one more round of milking the few remaining enthusiasts - we should encourage more open source development.
If you really want to do something about the way software is distributed on the Amiga, then try to come up with a sensible, Amiga specific concept for a package management system. That is what we need, not yet another website that is asking for my money because I'm expected to "support the Amiga".
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I was thinking something that would be a one stop shop with reviews and demos. If I did it I wouldn't do it to make a profit instead it would be to recapture some old users.
If you want free stuff go to aminet, if you want more polished stuff have an Amiga App store.
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The problem is twofold, Amiga lacks programmers and a good ide. I can build an complete iPhone/iPad app in the time that it takes me to just get all the library calls right in an Amiga app. iPhone/IPad development is as close as you can get to "instant gratification" in the software world currently. It's really in development that the old girl starts to show her age.
Apple got it right on both ends, the app store is brilliant and so are the XCode tools.
Well it took me two months to get to grips with XCode/Objective-C/Cocoa... But yeah, Apple's development platform is lightyears ahead of the competition... And the the Amiga's OS is like some weird dinosaur when you compare it with iPhoneOS :(
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Someday, we'll all come to terms with the fact that AmigaOS isn't Mac OS, and that Hyperion (or your Amiga custodian of choice) doesn't have a brand mananger with the vision and loyalty attributed to Steve Jobs.
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Well it took me two months to get to grips with XCode/Objective-C/Cocoa... But yeah, Apple's development platform is lightyears ahead of the competition...
Except for Objective-C which is an outright abortion. The only things it has going for it are late binding and runtime classloading.
Syntactically, it is the worst mash of disparate syntaxes I have ever seen.
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Hello again : )
I'm busy http://home.arcor.de/phoenixkonsole/screenshot1.png
have a look here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic7bnxrmZj4
and you can imagine the idea.
No drm needed. Trust is everything ; )
Next news when there is something to show... but i will follow your thread maybe you have good ideas too : )
Its possible to personalize apps per customer.
Much ich happening in Amiga-land especially if you count AROS in : ) like Amicoins
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How about a one stop shop for Amiga software? It might encourage people to write software if they can sell it for a few bucks.
I don't consider there to be enough Amiga stores to exist to not feel like I have an app store. I just have to wait for shipping.
Most of what there is to get anymore is from os4depot anyway.
If you want to pay for it, pay at amigabounty.net and then hope it shows up on os4depot someday.
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Correct. And this won't change anytime soon if everybody who dislikes something about Aminet just runs to the next forum, complains about it and announces his own competing service because Aminet STILL sucks so much.
Please don't go getting yourself worked up over nothing. I never said Aminet sucks, I never ran to a forum to complain about it. I simply stated a fact which contributes to my reasoning for a newer site with a different approach to Aminet, not a replacement for it.
We need Aminet to keep running forever. But Aminet doesn't have to remain the only centralised location for downloading new games and applications if people would prefer a modern, visual front-end with screenshots, user reviews/feedback/ratings, and the ability to click on a "BUY NOW/REGISTER NOW" button directly from the website/client application so the user doesn't have to hunt down the personal web page of the author of the software they're using and figure out their individual method of payment.
I am all for a new application, preferably with a MUI GUI, that can connect to a database of available/approved applications and games, download and install them with one click, and offer options for registering or paying for the software directly from the same service using PayPal or Credit Card.
A service like this should be free to use and never charge anyone for downloading free software, I don't know where anyone got the impression that us dedicated Amigans would ever want to milk the community like that. Maybe you think we're Apple lovers? I'll gladly live the rest of my life in miserable poverty as long as I can help keep the Amiga spirit alive in some way, and if that includes modernising the way we download and install new software then I'm all for it!
I used to love the way AmiBench consisted of a website and an Amiga application that both worked on the same database. I'm sure it can be done for software downloads and information.
I really hope this new Marketplace application being developed on Aros will be the perfect solution for us all once it's finished. I'd gladly share the ideas I've had over the last few years about the subject.
Instead of people coming in here and telling us why we should NOT do this, how about we limit ourselves to just coming up with ideas on how we CAN get this done? Do we WANT the Amiga to continue, and for developers to be encouraged to join the platform? Then we need something like this. It's 2010 already!
Please stop being so negative and try helping out for once, people!
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Except for Objective-C which is an outright abortion. The only things it has going for it are late binding and runtime classloading.
Syntactically, it is the worst mash of disparate syntaxes I have ever seen.
4 months ago, I would have stood by your side and said the same! But now I get what the objective C designers were trying to do, and it is the closest to the orginal OOP model of any of the modern languages... I will admit that it suffers due to it's history as a preprocessor, but it has a maturity that C++ can only dream about as it plasures itself to Cure songs in a darkened room...
The NextStep core foundation classses are brilliant too... I totally know where you are coming from, first reaction was disgust, but honestly, Objective C is much better thought out than any other "{}" language...
Something that threw me to begin with is how you build apps around callbacks... I'm used to the amiga way, where you wait for an event, and then process it... With OSX you override a method that will be called if an event occurs... Weird at first, but SO much better long term :)
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@Cammy
OK, so you cannot upload screenshots for now at least, but I recall having seen a screenshot or two there at some point. I typically access aminet using ADT, and not so much using web browsers. Maybe what you want is an update of MUIAdt? :P
As for an amiga app store - the cost of putting it up and maintaining it would never be paid back from the apps sold, and I very much doubt devs would be interested in exclusives, and without a lock-in - what would be the point?
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Kolla, you say that as if you know for sure, but you're just making it up. You don't know if an Amiga "app store" would be a failure, but you seem like you don't want us to try.
This is a very common attitude here. "You can't do this" "Don't even bother trying" "I know everything, and I say it's a bad idea"
What are you trying to accomplish by preventing us from forming ideas that could help us develop a new software distribution and advertising method for Amiga platforms? Why does it have to cost so much to set up such a system? How many developers have you asked who have said they wouldn't be interested in a better way for their product to reach its target audience?
We are seeing new users signing up on Amiga forums every week, either coming back to the computer system they love, or trying it out for the first time. Many are finding out about Amiga through YouTube where they see Amigas running software they never assumed they could run. Lots of people are starting to prefer using pre-installed Workbench packs like AmigaSys, ClassicWB and AmiKit. You can't see the potential that including this "app store" in these packs could have?
The applications included in the store don't all have to be new and current. We could include good software that is already available, essential shareware that's been around for a while and still requires registration to get the most out of (MUI, WHDLoad), shareware that's still in development and isn't hosted on Aminet (SabreMSN, AmiGift), commercial software and games whose authors are searching for an Amiga-based distribution method (Babylonian Twins), or software that hasn't been developed for a little while, but is still not available on Aminet (AmiNetRadio, Dynamite). Hosting software like this might stir up new interest in it and maybe even convince the authors to come back and update their programs, or open source them. I'm pretty sure a lot of Amiga users aren't as aware about how much good, recent software really is out there, because there's just no easy way for them to see what's available. Browsing Aminet's recent page only shows what's been released in the last couple of weeks, but after that it goes unnoticed unless someone goes searching for it.
I think Ubuntu's Software Center is an alright example of an online marketplace/app store, although I would prefer to have user ratings and reviews, and of course the ability to purchase or register software directly through the program if it's required.
I hope more people can help contribute positively to this thread instead of trying to drag it down and prevent the Amiga platform from progressing and evolving.
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Kolla, you say that as if you know for sure, but you're just making it up. You don't know if an Amiga "app store" would be a failure, but you seem like you don't want us to try.
This is a very common attitude here. "You can't do this" "Don't even bother trying" "I know everything, and I say it's a bad idea"
as soon as I get my working Amiga in order, I will be figuring out wtfs going on and back the Amiga development! Dont know how long it will take me since im also doing MSX and PCE stuff... but im going to do it anyways
and as for Apple/X-code..... eh, X-code is crap, and objective-c definitely is an abortion . Thats the best term ever.
Im gonna have to go out on a limb here and say Visual Studio w/ C# for the Xbox 360 is actually alot cooler than the Ipad/iPhone as far as ease of development.
the only way anything in the community can succeed is if the community supports it, lol
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Have you ever used XCode tools? Do you even know what you are talking about? I've been programming for 30 years, PDP Assembler, Fortran, several Basics, a little Cobol (hated it), Pascal, C, C++, C#, ASP, PHP, a little DotNet. And I have to say that from a theoretical and practical stance Apple's Obj C and it extensive tool kit is the best I've seen.
There's actually a lot you can do with no Obj C code at all. But look at the the whole package, OS X takes full advantage of Obj C's strengths and carefully avoids it's weaknesses.
Steve Jobs knew what he was doing with NeXTStep. Forget Carbon, that is cr@p,but cr@p with a purpose, to allow time for native Cocoa apps to develop. Now that native Cocoa is here, Carbon simply burns off and disappears.
DotNet and C# are Microsoft's attempts at creating their own XCode and Obj C. There are far less elegant as a package, but still far more than you could dream of on an Amiga. I don't like dotNet, it's not elegant to me, but I respect the amount of work Microsoft has but into it.
Basically it take 10 times as much work on the Amiga platform to produce an app barely half as good for an audience that is infinitesimal. Those aren't my type of odds.
as soon as I get my working Amiga in order, I will be figuring out wtfs going on and back the Amiga development! Dont know how long it will take me since im also doing MSX and PCE stuff... but im going to do it anyways
and as for Apple/X-code..... eh, X-code is crap, and objective-c definitely is an abortion . Thats the best term ever.
Im gonna have to go out on a limb here and say Visual Studio w/ C# for the Xbox 360 is actually alot cooler than the Ipad/iPhone as far as ease of development.
the only way anything in the community can succeed is if the community supports it, lol
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wow are we really going to pull the "OMG EXPERIENCE" elitist know it all card out? :) That never solves anything and makes the guilty party look like a chach..
yes, I have programmed the iPod touch/iPhone with X-Code. Prior to that, I used X-Code + Allegro to write 2D games on the mac. I don't really care for objective C very much, and think X-Code as an environment, sucks. sue me. I prefer Visual Studio, or no studio at all (notepad + compiler/debugger). Just because youuuuuuu love X-Code, doesn't mean everyone who doesn't is wrong or inexperienced.. :) You shouldn't rag on people for their environment preferences. Nothing wrong with ragging on the actual environments though.
You may like to think that you're the only experienced programmer here with a credible opinion, but uhhh, *news flash*, you aren't the only one.
It also seems like all you keep doing is shooting down the Amiga while flaunting Apple development. Why? I would certainly hope that development packages for a platform that is what, over 10 years newer, is more usable. Duh?
If you think Apple dev is the greatest thing ever and think anything Amiga related is going to fail , good for you. Don't be part of the revolution! :roflmao:
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@Arkhan
I did actually say that I respected Microsoft's efforts, but since you've programmed in XCode you realise it's a bit of an overstatement to say it's not well written or perfectly logical in it's own world view, as is DotNet and C# in it's. Much as I dislike C# I would never say it was an abortion, as you did with Obj C. The beauty of both these systems is that you don't have reinvent the wheel, the pieces are already there.
As for any Amiga revolution, I'll join it when there's a reason, not just because of the name. I've said it many times, Amiga took me places in 1985 that few dreamed of, when Amiga can take me to places that few can dream of in the present day, I'll join the revolution, until then I'll be happy with my iPhone, iPad and Mac....
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I remember when Gateway said we're not doing anymore Amiga development we're going Linux. I was a fencesitter on the idea. Except for Deluxe Paint there wasn't any function that couldn't be replaced acceptably by a PC. This was when you could only afford one system.
Nowadays you don't have to invest all your resources into one system. People with a laptop go and buy a netbook because they want something smaller. People with a games rig go and spend another $500 on a console.
Because we're now vying for control of someones 2nd, 3rd or more likely 3rd or 4th system the market is lot more promising.
If you're bitter about Amiga possibly because of time & money invested I suggest you take some time off. It lets you reassess what you like about Amiga.
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@cgutjahr
About the last thing the Amiga needs is an "app store". Instead of encouraging more commercialisation - which in our case just means one more round of milking the few remaining enthusiasts - we should encourage more open source development.
And kill for all time any possibility of a commercial incentive to create Amiga&alike specific applications. There is no incentive now, no userbase, nothing that could entice a developer other than love for the platform. It is not outside the realm of possibility that this could change and a developer could make money from an Amiga&alike product. In an ideal world this should be the norm rather than the exception. It should be a goal worth striving for as it is the only way to advance the platform significantly. I am not a raving fanboy that believes Amiga will take over the world any time soon, but believe in a strategy that should improve the applications situation immensely.
Tell me, why shouldn't an Amiga developer make a buck, especially if they deserve it, in furthering the platform? The Apple app-store and its proliferation of apps is often seen as the yardstick of success against other mobile platforms. It has made the iPhone platform the success it is, and any such endeavour catering to Amiga&alike platforms in the same fashion, could likely do the same thing.
Indeed, I would be a proponent of an app-store that collects a fee, even on free software, giving the possibility for the user to assign that fee to a particular bounty. Money is the only thing that is going to take Amiga&alike software to the next level. If you want free software perhaps AROS is your best bet, but if you're running a commercial Amiga&alike system, then it stands to reason that you would be supportive of commercial quality software.
You want to encourage open-source application development, which is your perogative, but you know most of that is going to come from Linux, and if all you wanted was Linux apps, then I'm at a loss to explain why you'd be using an Amiga&alike. I am not against open source perse, rather the reliance on it for everything.
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If you're bitter about Amiga possibly because of time & money invested I suggest you take some time off. It lets you reassess what you like about Amiga.
a good call indeed :)
I really don't think the idea of having an Amiga app store is to compete with the titans at Apple/M$
Its to support the Amiga, no matter what goes on outside!
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And kill for all time any possibility of a commercial incentive to create Amiga&alike specific applications.
This incentive was killed nearly a decade ago.
I am not a raving fanboy that believes Amiga will take over the world any time soon, but believe in a strategy that should improve the applications situation immensely.
I'm really looking forward to your explanation how a bunch of commercially motivated Amiga bedroom coders are going to take on the likes of OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, Inkscape, Blender, Audacity or Avidemux.
Tell me, why shouldn't an Amiga developer make a buck, especially if they deserve it, in furthering the platform?
If they're "furthering the platform" they sure deserve to make a buck. I just don't see any commercial development doing that. This thread was about games: do you think "Desert Racing" was furthering the platform? BOH? Word Me Up XXL?
The Apple app-store and its proliferation of apps is often seen as the yardstick of success against other mobile platforms.
The keyword here is mobile platforms.
but if you're running a commercial Amiga&alike system, then it stands to reason that you would be supportive of commercial quality software.
I'm supportive of good software, no matter what license is attached to it. AbiWord is good software. Give me a commercial Amiga word processor that is at least as good as AbiWord and I'll buy it. Problem is that this won't happen.
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I'm really looking forward to your explanation how a bunch of commercially motivated Amiga bedroom coders are going to take on the likes of OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, Inkscape, Blender, Audacity or Avidemux.
basement here!
Its about the Amiga, not the other stuff. :)