Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Hell Labs on April 03, 2010, 07:54:46 PM
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http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=11215&x=16
Or at least, booting. I'm surprised, after months and years of hearing only small things, they've started posting a checklist which is getting done really fast. I have to wonder, will they have a working product for us to buy before or after the x1000? What do you think?
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This for a lot of reasons, including the fact they've had quite headstart over the X1000.
Unless of course the Natami crew took out a million dollar loan with Atari and it's due to be repaid.
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Good to see updates like that..
Although I think you're being a bit liberal with the use of the word "booting." :-)
desiv
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Good to see updates like that..
Although I think you're being a bit liberal with the use of the word "booting." :-)
desiv
"The natami looks very close to booting."
What's wrong with that sentence?
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"The natami looks very close to booting."
What's wrong with that sentence?
Nothing "wrong" with it. Just depends on your definition of "close" I suppose.
I'm glad to see the progress. But from that and the checklist, I can't tell if that means days, weeks, or months from actual booting... Just that they are making good progress, which I applaud.
desiv
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This for a lot of reasons, including the fact they've had quite headstart over the X1000.
Unless of course the Natami crew took out a million dollar loan with Atari and it's due to be repaid.
The original board was delivered in Sept. There was a problem and they change the memory and memory controller and that was finished in Dec, irc. So, once the board became functional again, then the individual component implementation and testing began.
So it's natural to see more progress since January. This is to be a 68K machine as is not in competition with the X1000. It's also not designed to be more of an emulation platform like the Replay/FPGArcade board. This board is design to be an A5000+. Evolutionary, not revolutionary.
As you have seen from the Replay board, faster memory access can make the system perform better and with DDR2 burst mode fully implemented as well as double the cache of previous 68K cpus before it, it will be quite responsive.
If you still think it's vapor, then by all means don't click the link posted above, lest you want your propaganda be quelled.
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I hope it does come out.
3 layers classic
3 layers next gen.
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I wonder how much it will cost?
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I'm confused - where's Piru?
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I'm confused - where's Piru?
Watching breakpoint stream. Amiga 64k compo should be on pretty much right now.
Anyway. As far as I can remember text is rendered via CPU. Also, "implemented" is far from tested and working.
Blah... just 3 enties in the compo.
Anyway, natami is far more ambitious than just booting the amigaos. Just doing that is trivial and is well doable.
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the basic functionality might be reached soon after the full amiga like blitter is in but this is as piru remarked far from the project completion. anyways it is progressing despite multiple claims it will never work.
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If you'd asked me 6 months ago, I'd have bought one of these in a flash. But now, with the recent advances of the AGA Minimig with 50MB RAM.... it's a coin toss.
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It does do an OK guru, but I prefer the original...
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Buy the RetroReplay board if you want to play with lots of different cores, or get the Natami if you want a dedicated system with PCI slots and other useful interfaces.
Or get both ;)
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I wonder how much it will cost?
No more than a Sherlock Holmes remake with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce, and just as likely.
Gertsy
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No more than a Sherlock Holmes remake with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce, and just as likely.
Gertsy
I preferred Jeremy Brett's take on Holmes. Still just as likely though.
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No hope that they are on the level?
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They obviously have some very talented people on the team but unfortunatley it takes more than talent to bring such an ambitious project to market.
I feel they would have been better off aiming a little lower.....
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They obviously have some very talented people on the team but unfortunatley it takes more than talent to bring such an ambitious project to market.
I feel they would have been better off aiming a little lower.....
Amen
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I'm looking very forward to this Natami piece of kit coming to market, but it's slow moving it seems. I was horribly disappointed with the SAM in the compatibility department in regards to the older 3.x Amiga software and ended up just using my SAM with UAE :/
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It doesn't seem as if they are aiming that high- that is if I were some knowledgeable fellow on how to do such things I would think I'd skip the 68060 altogether and do ppc or just maybe the classic on a card and then some twelve core latest chip monster with dual pcie video heads and a metric ton of ram and price it at dell's insipid line (250US approx). =)
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Close to completion, close to booting, we have an odd view of things in the amiga community. Some of us are pretty jaded by vapor in the past. The one I wanted most was Mick Tinker's boXer thingie, that looked really cool.
Minimig and other projects like Aros and UAE have changed my mind somewhat on what we in the community can do. we have some pretty talanted and capable people still. I'm still not convinced Natami isn't too ambitious, but hey I've been wrong before. I would be glad to be wrong if I can plunk down some cash monies on a Natami soon.
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It doesn't seem as if they are aiming that high- that is if I were some knowledgeable fellow on how to do such things I would think I'd skip the 68060 altogether and do ppc or just maybe the classic on a card and then some twelve core latest chip monster with dual pcie video heads and a metric ton of ram and price it at dell's insipid line (250US approx). =)
Only problem is no one is making PowerPC chips. I think you mean go ARM.
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http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=11215&x=16
Or at least, booting. I'm surprised, after months and years of hearing only small things, they've started posting a checklist which is getting done really fast. I have to wonder, will they have a working product for us to buy before or after the x1000? What do you think?
Many people have (justified) doubts about the NatAmi, and so do I, but personally I think that the NatAmi has better odds of actually being released at all than the "X1000", and it will definitely be a more interesting and creative little "geek gadget" compared to the "X1000". It will probably be something people can afford as well. I can easily see myself getting a NatAmi, but there is no way in this world I'll spend 1,500 EUR on an "X1000", no matter which of the two gets released first...
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Many people have (justified) doubts about the NatAmi, and so do I, but personally I think that the NatAmi has better odds of actually being released at all than the "X1000", and it will definitely be a more interesting and creative little "geek gadget" compared to the "X1000". It will probably be something people can afford as well. I can easily see myself getting a NatAmi, but there is no way in this world I'll spend 1,500 EUR on an "X1000", no matter which of the two gets released first...
I really don't see myself buying either. The only thing that could make me interested is when AROS gets ported to EFIKA-MX smartbook (or x86 netbook). With dual booting with Linux, might make it worth it to me to buy. At the very worst, I'll just go buy a couple of the Amiga games that I like that have been ported to Windows and install it on my laptop. At this point in time, if it's not technologically interesting to me, why would I buy it? There are no Amiga apps or games that I can not find a superior version of or run in emulation that would make a dedicated Amiga box worth while buying, regardless of the asking price.
Sad but true and I highly doubt I'm alone either.
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Yeah these hardware projects are nice, but so is sitting down to a multi-core multi-ghz system with several gigs of ram, a brand new pci-e video card all running Aros.
Let the professionals with hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of employees design and manufacture the hardware.
Of course I have a 68000 project I'm working on. Very unambitious just cpu, ram, eeprom and a ks0108 lcd controller, and maybe an audio dac.
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Only problem is no one is making PowerPC chips. I think you mean go ARM.
Ever heard of Freescale? AMCC? IBM?
ARM is great if you're looking to make a cell phone or other mobile device, but not so great if you're looking to make a desktop.
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@ dammy & KThunder
Well, I guess you should look at NatAmi for what it is - a geek toy for Amiga nerds, an enthusiast product, an *Amiga* that matches and goes far beyond the A1200/A4000. It's *not* something aiming to replace anyones PC setup, something aiming to "rule the world" or whatever. It's a fun and cool hobby machine. I can easily see myself buying it for those merits. If you aren't appealed to this, then you aren't! As simple as that! :)
The X1000 however, is little more than a standard PC, but with the burden of not being standard (hence it has an obscure CPU and costs a magnitude more). Not very exciting IMHO.
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That is how I see Natami, I'm not pinning my hopes on it or anything. They are presenting it pretty agressively though. I tend to look at most things as vapor until proven otherwise. I know that may upset some people but I have worked on several projects over the years that were just geek hobbies. Fun to goof around with etc. When you set up a whole webpage and forum system and start setting up news etc. it goes beyond just a simple geek project.
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That is how I see Natami, I'm not pinning my hopes on it or anything. They are presenting it pretty agressively though. I tend to look at most things as vapor until proven otherwise. I know that may upset some people but I have worked on several projects over the years that were just geek hobbies. Fun to goof around with etc. When you set up a whole webpage and forum system and start setting up news etc. it goes beyond just a simple geek project.
We are? There's a constantly running thread on the dev' side about keeping it quiet so as not to whip people into a frothing rage when it doesn't meet their expectations. Then there's a lot of followers who just seem to think it'll be the second coming of Christ!!! :/ We're trying not to get peoples hopes too high, we just started off doing a _terrible_ job of it.
It's more than just a geek project; we want to release it with basic features that beat a base A4000/A1200 setup. That's it. Everything else, no matter how many times we say it, is for AFTER that. The 3D Core, improved sound etc etc etc almost all of it is for after, the base platform just has to be capable of supporting that future work AND be as compatible as possible with old software.
We'll get there I think, Thomas has done some amazing work, but he is the originator of the project and the only one doing the hardware much like MikeJ with the fpgaarcade board so it takes time.
Back on topic: Close is a relative term, I think MikeJ is much much closer than we are and I'd love to buy one of his boards myself when they're available. Not necessarily for NatAmi but just for what it is in and of itself.
Andy
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Ever heard of Freescale? AMCC? IBM?
ARM is great if you're looking to make a cell phone or other mobile device, but not so great if you're looking to make a desktop.
Both Google and M$' Bing are gearing up for ARM based servers.
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We are? There's a constantly running thread on the dev' side about keeping it quiet so as not to whip people into a frothing rage when it doesn't meet their expectations. Then there's a lot of followers who just seem to think it'll be the second coming of Christ!!! :/ We're trying not to get peoples hopes too high, we just started off doing a _terrible_ job of it.
It's more than just a geek project; we want to release it with basic features that beat a base A4000/A1200 setup. That's it. Everything else, no matter how many times we say it, is for AFTER that. The 3D Core, improved sound etc etc etc almost all of it is for after, the base platform just has to be capable of supporting that future work AND be as compatible as possible with old software.
We'll get there I think, Thomas has done some amazing work, but he is the originator of the project and the only one doing the hardware much like MikeJ with the fpgaarcade board so it takes time.
Back on topic: Close is a relative term, I think MikeJ is much much closer than we are and I'd love to buy one of his boards myself when they're available. Not necessarily for NatAmi but just for what it is in and of itself.
Andy
Maybe "aggresively" is a little strong of a word. I have looked over the site and was quite impressed with the site itself. What I can't really tell as much about is the product. One of the most impressive projects in the history of the amiga was minimig by Dennis van Weeren. That was completed in secret, then shown to the world.
Natami is as amibitious as boXer, I'm just hoping it doesn't share the same fate.
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It would be nice to be able to combine the Natami and x1000 in a way.
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staple-gun, hotglue gun, and duct tape?
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No, a welding machine.
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Maybe "aggresively" is a little strong of a word. I have looked over the site and was quite impressed with the site itself. What I can't really tell as much about is the product. One of the most impressive projects in the history of the amiga was minimig by Dennis van Weeren. That was completed in secret, then shown to the world.
Natami is as amibitious as boXer, I'm just hoping it doesn't share the same fate.
I think Thomas felt that the MiniMig forced his hand. He'd been working on what became the NatAmi for a while already when Dennis announced the MiniMig and so he felt, much like Jens with the CloneA, that he had to say something about the project existing. I think that the plan had otherwise been to do what Dennis did, just several years later :)
BoXer comparisons are far I guess, but we're not commercial and each of the project members has access to a lot of the software and N68050 fpga work already done. So that won't be lost.
The hardware and SuperAGA? Well it could happen I suppose, the NatAmi team that deals with the N68050, 3DCore (tami) etc don't have access too the hardware. We're all clustered around Thomas's private project and respect that so whilst Gunnar (and a couple of others) might have access to Thomas's hardware the rest of us are a separate team.
Andy
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It would be nice to be able to combine the Natami and x1000 in a way.
I don't think we have any crossover between the projects. They're focused on the future using PowerPC. We're focused on delivering the 68k based Amiga that people would have liked to have seen after the A1200 & A4000 with a few bells n' whistles.
I notice that a lot of people keep saying how easy it would be to do, but not many are doing it.
Andy
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We're focused on delivering the 68k based Amiga that people would have liked to have seen after the A1200 & A4000 with a few bells n' whistles.
That's *exactly* what I'd like to see. My classic gear is falling apart man. Spend more time fixing the old stuff than playing games and having fun these days. Not interested in the new stuff except for Aros.
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I think Thomas felt that the MiniMig forced his hand. He'd been working on what became the NatAmi for a while already when Dennis announced the MiniMig and so he felt, much like Jens with the CloneA, that he had to say something about the project existing. I think that the plan had otherwise been to do what Dennis did, just several years later :)
BoXer comparisons are far I guess, but we're not commercial and each of the project members has access to a lot of the software and N68050 fpga work already done. So that won't be lost.
The hardware and SuperAGA? Well it could happen I suppose, the NatAmi team that deals with the N68050, 3DCore (tami) etc don't have access too the hardware. We're all clustered around Thomas's private project and respect that so whilst Gunnar (and a couple of others) might have access to Thomas's hardware the rest of us are a separate team.
Andy
Seems like yarube should be pulled in since he has an AGA implementation going already.
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I periodically think "Oh hey man I should really give the natami a whirl when it debuts" then I remember: there's nothing to do there once you get there. A clone of 1941 that looks like it was built with Flash elements doesn't do much for me. And all we've seen of the vaunted 3d capabilities are screenshots.
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Seems like yarube should be pulled in since he has an AGA implementation going already.
What and drag him away from the fpgaarcade board?!?! No way! I want one of those myself! :D
Thomas already re-implemented most of AGA when he first demo'd the test board, most of his current if porting that over and bug fixing. The fact that the list he posts isn't complete is, I think, more a feature of him re-implementing things to take-advantage/work-with the new bus, memory and boards. That and y'know, he has a life outside of the NatAmi too :)
Andy
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I periodically think "Oh hey man I should really give the natami a whirl when it debuts" then I remember: there's nothing to do there once you get there. A clone of 1941 that looks like it was built with Flash elements doesn't do much for me. And all we've seen of the vaunted 3d capabilities are screenshots.
The 3DCore isn't due for the launch, though there might be simplified version for shortly after.
To clarify though we did do monthly simulation builds until we realised we needed to rethink elements of the design and those were put up for people to download.
I know because I helped write it.
Andy
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As always, I wish Natami well, but I suspect, as many do here, that it will be just too expensive if it ever appears.
Still, it will be interesting how it performs to comparable hardware if it arrives. That's a comparison I'd definitely like to see.
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Nothing "wrong" with it. Just depends on your definition of "close" I suppose.
I'm glad to see the progress. But from that and the checklist, I can't tell if that means days, weeks, or months from actual booting... Just that they are making good progress, which I applaud.
desiv
I do believe his definition of close was pretty close to correct:
http://www.natami.net/gfx/NatAmi16_LX/bringup_boot_01.avi
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Cool.
I would be happy with a Mini-Mig Core for now.
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I wish them the best, and I really hope this gets finished and sold, but the project has changed many times as far as expected release dates, even what it is or will be has changed many times along the way. I stopped checking in after a year I guess.
I really hope they finish it but unfortunately in amiga land, many things just dissapear after years of hype and talk.
They seem pretty determined though, so I'm hoping for the best. I'd love to slap one of their boards into a modern case...
Steven
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a real amiga upgrade ..a real amiga ..my opinion but ..isnt the chipset the amiga ?? isnt that one major difference between a pc an amiga ?
how is the x1000 as powerful as it may be an amiga ..any more than a sun machine would an amiga if it was running workbench ..
its not about the power its about enjoying computer time ..when we use them all day ..as i do ..the amiga feels different .special ..go NATAMI ..wouldve loved to have seen a AAA chipset machine but super aga will do ..
at least until natami 2 comes along ..i wonder how long before someone realizes there is a market still there ..small now ..but .
my opinion ..
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I don't think an Amiga is defined in one dimension, be it the OS, custom hardware or any other single aspect. It is the combination of these and the overall experience that defines it, IMHO.
No disrespect intended to the NatAmi team, or Dennis but if the native chipset were the sole deciding factor in the definition, then the NatAmi and MiniMig are no more "real" than UAE is. The only tangible difference being that they are a hardware, rather than software realisations of the original.
If, on the other hand, you base the definition on the overall user experience, there is no doubt that the minimig (and presumably the natami) are every bit as real as anything as commodore released. However, since that is a subjective definition, you have to accept that the other amiga compatible systems out there are equally "real".
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The better term is 'Amiga compatible.' Also PowerPC Amiga vs 68k Amiga. With custom chipset, Zorro or with PCI and so on.
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@karlos: i have only two conditions i need to acknowledge an amiga as such on any machine you throw on me.
1) amigaos should not be hosted on any foreign os especially if it is an commercial closed source. i would accept an abstraction over a kernel used to provide hardware support such as amithlon if i dont have to deal with it as a user but i prefer 68k native hardware that doesnt introduce jit precompile lag each time i start a 68k application, which applies as well to os4 as to winuae.
2) the backwards compatibility should be assured as far as possible, custom chipset inclusive. i know even back in the day it wasnt well taken care of, but that time there was still an evolving market, whereas today we mostly have to rely on 10-20 years old legacy.
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@karlos: i have only two conditions i need to acknowledge an amiga as such on any machine you throw on me.
1) amigaos should not be hosted on any foreign os especially if it is an commercial closed source. i would accept an abstraction over a kernel used to provide hardware support such as amithlon if i dont have to deal with it as a user but i prefer 68k native hardware that doesnt introduce jit precompile lag each time i start a 68k application, which applies as well to os4 as to winuae.
Like it is even measurable on modern hardware. Physically reading the m68k code from disk takes longer than the translation.
What's more, hotspot based JIT tend to have no real lag since they interpret anything that isn't cpu-bound. Naturally, this is slower to execute than compiled code but that slowness is completely hidden by the fact the code isn't time critical to start with, else it would end up translated anyway.
2) the backwards compatibility should be assured as far as possible, custom chipset inclusive. i know even back in the day it wasnt well taken care of, but that time there was still an evolving market, whereas today we mostly have to rely on 10-20 years old legacy.
There comes a point when emulation is the easiest option for legacy support. If you are honest with yourself, we passed that point more than a few years ago. An emulation realised in VHDL or Verilog and implemented in generic FPGA hardware is every bit as much of an emulation as one written in software. Nobody is making chip masks.
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i am honest with myself, and i draw my conclusions from my everyday experience with winuae (mostly on my slightly dated lenovo t43p these days) and the real hardware (a4k desktop with mediator extention).
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The problem I've noticed with WinUAE (though I haven't tried any hardware emulators yet -- intending to get the Replay) is that there is an input (or maybe it's really output) delay that doesn't quite seem to cut it. From pressing a button or moving the mouse to the change actually showing on screen takes some time (longer than on real hardware). Some of the immediacy on the real hardware is lost, especially in games that use the mouse.
Software emulation is also a huge waste of energy.
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I wonder how much sense it makes to look for a "definition" of Amiga.
To various users it obviously means different things and one cannot say who of them is more right. In this sense I would say there are many Amigas, with Natami being one of them and UAE another.
I would like to see though that different approaches to Amiga can make some benefit from each other.
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I wonder how much sense it makes to look for a "definition" of Amiga.
I very much agree with this. It seems to me like most users are sold on the brand itself. What is and isn't an Amiga is irrelevant in terms of whether the hardware or software is useful or fun, or if it is able to provide you with a personal "Amiga experience."
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I switched from silicon to software amiga's years ago and have not regretted it in the slightest. I can turn my system on and run any piece of software from os1.0 ocs to 3.9 aga or rtg and anything in between smoothly and with little effort. If my system dies I don't have to search desparately for some rediculously overpriced replacement. For the same price as a Picasso IV I can get a pretty decent 3d card.
The whole "russian roulette" I played when I pressed the power button is over. Someone else can worry about if the next time they turn the physical amiga on is the last. I think a Natami would probably be worse. You have one producer, with limited runs, on specialized hardware. Try to replace or repair that.
I do have some amiga hardware still, but it doesn't work and that doesn't really matter to me. I have some amiga discs still but they are probably dead too. They are all backed up on cds.
Minimig, Natami and others are cool little projects, but if you think they can do better than Aros and UAE on a netbook, laptop or desktop monster, then I have a bridge for sale in NY you might be interested in :)
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You know if you place a tool booth on the bridge you have for sale in NYC it could be a money maker!
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The whole "russian roulette" I played when I pressed the power button is over. Someone else can worry about if the next time they turn the physical amiga on is the last. I think a Natami would probably be worse. You have one producer, with limited runs, on specialized hardware. Try to replace or repair that.
You have a great point here, which I'd like to expand.
In my opinion it works for all limited run hardware. Hardware becomes available. You might have a running system now, and perhaps even warranty repairs for 2 years, if you're lucky. But since the HW was only ever produced in very limited numbers (say < 5000 units), it will soon become very very hard to get repairs or spare parts. Dealers would like to help you, but are unable to since there just are no spare parts or qualified repair shops available. With new tehnologies (surface mounted components, higher bus speeds etc) it becomes harder and harder to repair things.
This is the very reason I believe X1000 project is doomed to fail even before the HW is out.
What about the alternatives? There are no magic solutions here. Either you migrate to the common tehnologies used today (read: amd64, ARM etc), or try to find some large existing hardware base to take advantage of. If the technology is clearly winding down (like it is the case with PowerPC), the 2nd option will only carry you so far. So eventually, you'll have to migrate or die off completely.
What we're doing with MorphOS currently is taking the 2nd option. We're making MorphOS available for ever wider range of Apple PowerPC hardware. These PPC Macs are available in vast quantities from various auction sites. Prices are relatively moderate (compared to new custom HW at least). You can still find spare parts and qualified repairs for these machines, and what best: if your hardware fails completely, it is relatively easy to find a replacement.
Obviously this won't last forever, but I firmly believe this is the only sensible course of action for now.
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Obviously this won't last forever, but I firmly believe this is the only sensible course of action for now.
Off topic, but do you have any ideas about where you'd like to see it go long term? MorphOS x64 perchance?
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You can still find spare parts and qualified repairs for these machines, and what best: if your hardware fails completely, it is relatively easy to find a replacement.
But god forbid you find some hardware you'd rather run MorphOS on than what you already have.
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I see two possibilities for a 'new' AGA chipset, either a drop-in replacement motherboard for classics or a new mini-itx motherboard. If you're going to go to all the trouble of reimplementing the chipset in FPGA's then you might as well perform some minor improvements (eg faster CPU, memory speed), although further more drastic updates are all very nice on paper (eg 64 bit blitter, chunky display modes) you then run into software incompatibilities (eg the more enhancements, the less compatibility you have).
Obviously this kind of thing is only going to sell to existing classic users who are fed up with their caps exploding and ex-classic users.
As a classic user myself, I wouldn't be prepared to pay much more than about $200 for an enhanced motherboard which wouldn't really offer me much over my existing AGA 030 machine. At that kind of money, it would be very difficult for anyone to get back their investment into making such a board. I guess this is why Jens hasn't bothered to bring CloneA to market even though it appears to have been completed.
And where does all that leave Natami?
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I've never liked emulation much and TBH I don't even like using a PC keyboard for an Amiga OS. It makes me feel a bit queezy. As for Aros and MorphOS, I couldn't care less about them. I like my Amiga's as hardware and providing the price can compare well enough with an A1200 with extra RAM and an '060, IDE controller etc.. Natami has a sale.
Beyond OS3.9 I'll go for a SAM for now. Low power consumption & footprint are more important to me than raw power as I have a powerful PC anyway and until the software starts to emerge that needs a truly fast OS4 machine I'm not worried.
Let's not forget that UAE is only ever likely to go as far as OS3.9 (as are some other solutions) and is therefore "retro", like it or not!
As for hardware availability being a reason to go for Morph OS over Natami (for example), pah! Old Macs will die too folks.
As I final comment I'd just like to say that all of this is irrelevant as we only have a couple of years 'til the world ends and the dread lord Cthulhu eats your souls..... ;)
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PearPC could be developed to run AmigaOS 4.1 (which appears retro by design if not by age).
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That's a fair comment but I'm not an emulation fan. It would offer another choice however for those that feel happy with an emulator.
PS. Persia, that bug in your sig has been running around for ages now. Don't you think you should give it a buddy, it looks kind of lonely. :)
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Looks like they're getting closer...
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=20767
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And here's some video of Natami. Looking good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rydE7wa_5d0&fmt=18
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Natami's interesting but all they've shown thus far is nothing you can't do with MiniMig AGA by accessing the extra chip RAM, or WinUAE by bumping up the chip RAM to 8mb in the settings.
There was some talk a while ago about a 3d GPU built in; is this now no longer the case?
I ask because I don't (and never did) give a fig about the Amiga's "special 2d capabilities" ...
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@Piru
I think you're missing the point of Natami. It isn't competing with any PPC variants of AOS or MorphOS. The Natami is simply a hobby project and is what should have been the successor to the Amiga 4000 had Commodore not folded (SAGA graphics and a 68060 core). And your argument that the hardware used to run MorphOS is easily repaired or replaced is flawed. Try to get warranty repairs or replacement parts for a PegII or a MacMini. It's an oxy-moron to say that MorphOS has taken an approach that allows it to run on a wider range of PPC systems. There simply isn't a widerange of PPC ANYTHING. The number of running PPC systems is finite and drops daily as these systems get trash binned or experience hardware failures. MorphOS is on the same slow sinking ship that has been "Amiga" for years. I agree that the X1000 will not be a success. Too pricey and too narrow a market. And until the Amiga community accepts the fact that PPC is a dead end, all the AOS variants will go down on the same sinking ship.
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Natami's interesting but all they've shown thus far is nothing you can't do with MiniMig AGA by accessing the extra chip RAM, or WinUAE by bumping up the chip RAM to 8mb in the settings.
There was some talk a while ago about a 3d GPU built in; is this now no longer the case?
The FPGA is reconfigurable logic. The contents of the FPGA are loaded at boot time using Flash memory. There will be future versions of the Natami cores that will require a reflashed FPGA to access the new features. The 3D core will be software upgraded later on once the hardware is shown to work properly.
The only things that we've seen the NatAmi can do that the MiniMig AGA core can't at this point are access the DDR2 memory at full bus speed and do hardware-accelerated alpha-blending in chunky mode. The reason you haven't seen anything special is because the test code is still 2d.
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One thing I hope we get from all of this is " no more stinking bankruptcies".
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@Piru
I think you're missing the point of Natami.
I don't think I am.
your argument that the hardware used to run MorphOS is easily repaired or replaced is flawed. Try to get warranty repairs or replacement parts for a PegII or a MacMini.
I was obviously talking about Mac Mini. While there are no warranty repairs, the spare parts to Mini are dirt cheap. Heck you can buy several Mac Minis for the price of other "custom" PPC HW. You can find very good repair service for the Macs still. Try that with your custom PPC HW after 5 years...
It's an oxy-moron to say that MorphOS has taken an approach that allows it to run on a wider range of PPC systems. There simply isn't a widerange of PPC ANYTHING.
Nonsense. There are millions of PPC Macs around still.
The number of running PPC systems is finite and drops daily as these systems get trash binned or experience hardware failures. MorphOS is on the same slow sinking ship that has been "Amiga" for years.
It is far more sensible to port to these easy targets than to spend years working on x86/amd64 port with no releases at all in the meanwhile. This really is the best option for now.
Obviously eventually we will need to re-evaluate the situation, but the Mac systems won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
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I imagine the next step is AGA demos.
Did anyone notice how fast those jpegs were decoded in full color and the resolution?
I'm sure it's child's play to the Minimig... O_o
Natami will enable back-porting from AROSx86 back to 68k for things that current 68k
Amigas lack due to graphical processing power and memory thru-put. Think SDL...OpenGL1.x ...etc... (OWB 68K port...etc...)
This is for hobbyists and demo-coders at first...and the developer boards will be expensive as they have announced since the beginning. The consumer boards will be cheaper.
Funny how critics are silent now that a proper video is shown...
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I don't think I am.
I was obviously talking about Mac Mini. While there are no warranty repairs, the spare parts to Mini are dirt cheap. Heck you can buy several Mac Minis for the price of other "custom" PPC HW. You can find very good repair service for the Macs still. Try that with your custom PPC HW after 5 years...
Nonsense. There are millions of PPC Macs around still.
It is far more sensible to port to these easy targets than to spend years working on x86/amd64 port with no releases at all in the meanwhile. This really is the best option for now.
Obviously eventually we will need to re-evaluate the situation, but the Mac systems won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
MorphOS needs a Wii port! Then I will finally try it. Now that is good cheap hardware with millions around. Until the hardware gets that current, a MacMini is still a timebomb. Bounty anyone?
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MorphOS needs a Wii port!
No, it really does not.
Bounty anyone?
You'd be wasting your time, but sure if that rocks your boat...
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It's all good! MorphOS is good, PPC is good, AROS is good, fiddling with FPGA is good, tinkering with classics is good. Each one makes someone happy, each one is challenging in its own ways. It is blatantly stupid to call one superior over the other, or one project more important than the other. If I had PPC Mac products I'd probably give MorphOS a day in court, so to speak. I'd really like to see MorphOS running on the last gen PowerMac G5's. There's still a whole bunch of life left in those boxen. But to see that reality takes time and money and dedication of intelligent hard working people who in the meantime can't quit their day jobs. Thus the definition of HOBBY. It's been flogged to death-Amiga proper is no longer a mainstream player. It is a bit player at BEST. Linux, BSD, OSX, Windows all work better faster and cheaper on better faster cheaper hardware. All of the Morph and AROS and OS4.1 people, not to forget Natami, minimig, etc are dedicated to breathing new life into soft/hardware that mainstream has forgotten or ignored. So how about this-quit trashing people's choices on how to honor the Amiga legacy, enjoy the vibrant hobbyist community surrounding Amiga flavors, and STFU if someone gushes a bit about their favorite flavor being better than your favorite flavor.
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MorphOS needs a Wii port! Then I will finally try it. Now that is good cheap hardware with millions around. Until the hardware gets that current, a MacMini is still a timebomb. Bounty anyone?
What's so good about the Wii? Less than 1GHz of customised PPC, less than 128MB main memory, proprietary graphics hardware that needs driver support etc.
Sounds like a royal pain in the rear to me. If MOS wants to stay PPC for the time being, they are being sensible in going after old mac hardware.
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@Piru
Again, your arguments are flawed. Just because there are "millions" of ANYTHING laying around, doesn't mean that there is a demand or that people will use them. That's why they're "laying around". Most people have moved on to newer, faster, more robust technologies.
Why take a step backward to use a 5-year old MacMini with MOS when I can get a modern system for $500 USD or less that will trounce a MacMini in every area?
I have several Amigas and I have a PegII with AOS4 and MorphOS both installed. But I haven't turned any of them on in nearly a year. There simply isnt anything that they have to offer me that I can't have on another cheaper, more robust architecture. As an investment, I can certainly say that my Amigas and PegII are liabilities and I'm not going to put any more money into them. I simply cannot justify the exorbitant price for an X1000 or for upgrading MOS or AOS. I WILL get a Natami to use all of my legacy Amiga software and games. I enjoy Amiga for the sake of nostalgia. For those who think that AOS or MOS is the bleeding edge, well, you're either a relative of Rip Van Winkle or you've been living in a cave for the past 20 years. AROS will be the future of AOS, not obscure, over-priced, low tech PPC cast offs.
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@Piru
Again, your arguments are flawed.
Again, I don't agree with you. I think you're thinking that I'd somehow argue against x86/amd64. I am not.
Just because there are "millions" of ANYTHING laying around, doesn't mean that there is a demand or that people will use them.
Did I claim that? No.
I just say that it is way easier to get things replaced if there's a huge stockpile of used PPC Macs around. Repairs are easier than to some custom PPC HW platform.
Note that I did not claim that these systems would be better in generic computing than x86/amd64 box. This argument is obviously only valid in the the PPC amigoid sphere of things.
Why take a step backward to use a 5-year old MacMini with MOS when I can get a modern system for $500 USD or less that will trounce a MacMini in every area?
If you don't want to run PPC OS, then obviously you're going to get a x86/amd64 box. See above.
I personally run several intel c2d and c2q boxes (Debian GNU/Linux). They don't replace the two Mac Mini G4 and PowerBook G4 I have, however.
Now, you might think that running AROS on them would do that. I don't agree with that sentiment. Frankly, while AROS has progressed nicely lately, I still think it has years to come even close to what MorphOS is today, or might never get that far.
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I have several Amigas and I have a PegII with AOS4 and MorphOS both installed. But I haven't turned any of them on in nearly a year. There simply isnt anything that they have to offer me that I can't have on another cheaper, more robust architecture. As an investment, I can certainly say that my Amigas and PegII are liabilities and I'm not going to put any more money into them. I simply cannot justify the exorbitant price for an X1000 or for upgrading MOS or AOS. I WILL get a Natami to use all of my legacy Amiga software and games. I enjoy Amiga for the sake of nostalgia. For those who think that AOS or MOS is the bleeding edge, well, you're either a relative of Rip Van Winkle or you've been living in a cave for the past 20 years. AROS will be the future of AOS, not obscure, over-priced, low tech PPC cast offs.
That's an insane proposition.
You've just explained at length how you can get a newer, more powerful machine for $500, an example of which (or better) I assume you already own and why you refuse to invest any more money in PPC offshoots.
Why on earth, then, would you buy a "new" classic machine (the natami) to run your old software catalogue when you could run it anyway on your cheap and cheerful PC at speeds far faster than any real 68K? It doesn't matter that the natami has SuperAGA, if all you are going to run is your existing 68K catalogue of old games and apps. None of them will be able to take any advantage of them other than perhaps higher screen resolutions for system friendly apps.
UAE is free. You can't get a more cost effective way of indulging your classic habit than that.
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What's so good about the Wii? Less than 1GHz of customised PPC, less than 128MB main memory, proprietary graphics hardware that needs driver support etc.
Sounds like a royal pain in the rear to me. If MOS wants to stay PPC for the time being, they are being sensible in going after old mac hardware.
The cpu is downclocked to 729MHz, it could be upclocked in software. They chose that speed for maxmimum backwards compatibility with GC mode.
The graphics are well known in the hombrew community so porting libraries is trivial. There are SDL ports already. It already has SDHC and USB 2.0 support.
It's also widely available and cheap.
This would be a way to spread the MorphOS 'word'. If an Amiga-like OS can't run on 64MB of main ram + 24MB of video then shame on it.
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@lou_dias
It will not happen. Forget it.
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@ Karlos
I explained why I want a Natami. For nostalgia sake. I don't like software emulation although I will concede that emulation works great and runs rings around any legacy Amigas. I don't want to invest in any NOS Amigas or original old Amigas. I have enough of those and will hold on to them but I want to keep their usage as limited as possible. I want them to last as long as possible. I'll use a Natami and leave the old Amigas in the garage so to speak and only use the old Amigas on special occasions. Same concept as a classic car. There's no way I'd use a Model T Ford on the today's roads as a daily commuter vehicle. Better to keep it in the garage and take it out on special occasions. Buy a cheap modern car for routine transportation. And who wants to drive a Model T simulator? Nobody! There's nothing like the real thing baby!
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The cpu is downclocked to 729MHz, it could be upclocked in software. They chose that speed for maxmimum backwards compatibility with GC mode.
The graphics are well known in the hombrew community so porting libraries is trivial. There are SDL ports already. It already has SDHC and USB 2.0 support.
It's also widely available and cheap.
This would be a way to spread the MorphOS 'word'. If an Amiga-like OS can't run on 64MB of main ram + 24MB of video then shame on it.
64MB is not enough for OS4/MOS to do anything productive because modern apps require much more ram. Efika has twice the ram and sometimes I feel it's not enough. Wii users are not interested in running Linux or MorphOS and screen resolution would suck anyway.
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No need to fight. I think the bar's been raised. You won't have to settle for low spec machines and be grateful for it. Now you have some variety to pick from.
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screen resolution would suck anyway.
Yup, thats the main killer when it comes to repurposing the gc/wii. It really is a shame Nintendo dropped the ball on the video resolution with the wii.
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Aw come on guys, you make it sound as if 576i isn't the pinnacle of display resolutions...
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Aw come on guys, you make it sound as if 576i isn't the pinnacle of display resolutions...
You guys seem to miss the point.
It's not to make a Wii a productive MOS machine, but to put MOS infront of people to generate interest.
@Piru,
Sure, I'll forget it completely, along with ever trying it out. AROS keeps excelling and OS4 will have superior hardware this summer(in theory).
I guess I'll have to be content with: http://dl.qj.net/wii/homebrew/uae-wii-v5.html
...toodles!
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Can anyone tell me the name of the plane game show on the natami party screenshots. used to plsay it all the time when i was school on lunhc times with my mate, Loved it, cant remeber for the life of me name of it
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*ignoring the Wii MorphOS thread-jack posts*
Is there an up to date time line for Natami now that things appear to be happening?
Mostly interested in AGA and the 68050 CPU implementation, and future demos using a few of the new features.
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Can anyone tell me the name of the plane game show on the natami party screenshots. used to plsay it all the time when i was school on lunhc times with my mate, Loved it, cant remeber for the life of me name of it
Wings of Fury.
That wasn't me that crashed the plane! Honest :D
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Wings of Fury.
That wasn't me that crashed the plane! Honest :D
Looks like Jetstrike-CD32 on steroids...