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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: amigean on April 01, 2010, 10:20:52 PM
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Hi,
I saw this thread about installing new kickstart roms to A500s and this (probably silly) idea occurred to me: Would it be possible, using some dedicated hardware that translates Rom-signals to whatever-signals-flash-based-storage uses, to use compact flash cards in the place of normal roms (EPROMS?)?
/dream mode on
My totally uninformed reasoning goes like this: if the kickstart 'port' (more like header) on an amiga's motherboard can accept roms of a greater size than the ones it was designed for (say from 512kb to 1mb) then it could also accept more (say 4gb!). Provided someone could come up with the hardware (and a small software solution to simulate the real kickstart in the CF), then a world of possibilities opens up: Basically flash-based storage almost all amigas (with appropriate adapters for sockets), including those that have no HDD controller and storage solutions are expensive/awkward (esp. A500, CD32, CDTV etc).
I imagine that would be read-only though. But, since I'm dreaming, I imagine some clever hack would emerge to allow writing to it, possibly using some other interface.
If that's not possible, how about other flash-based solutions that plug onto 'vulnerable' parts of the motherboard (e.g. some custom chip that controls memory access?)
Hardware experts I want to hear your opinions! (be kind, I have no real understanding of electronics or low-level hardware mechanics)
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It would certainly be possible to replace the ROM with something else that mimics the ROM.
However, it certainly cannot provide more than 512KB directly (and perhaps 1MB with some hacks).
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I have been waiting for a 1 MB flash rom solution for over two years. But despite there are a lot of people interested, none of the usual hardware sellers seem to think this kind of device would be comercially viable, for some unknown reason.
I know there is the kickflash and the eflash4000, and even the deneb card, but then A1200 and other non zorro Amigas are left in the darkness .
Having to buy an eprom burner with adapters and having to deal with many difficulties to acomplish a similar goal is not really good. I am all for a comercial solution for this.
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You want to add an IDE controller hooked to the ROM header? Not possible, sorry.
But there is some hacks that allow installing a pair flash memory chips (not Compact Flash! : flash RAM chips) using a little adaptor board, then programming the chips outside the Amiga.
With new flash "ROM" hooked in the Amiga you'll have the ability to reprogram it as you wish.
Look for ROM flash on Aminet.
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someone sooner or later will do a 1Mb rom for the A1200 via the extra rom pins.
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It has already been done. But no one has yet provided a comercial solution for non zorro Amigas that involves a flash rom.
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I have been waiting for a 1 MB flash rom solution for over two years. But despite there are a lot of people interested, none of the usual hardware sellers seem to think this kind of device would be comercially viable, for some unknown reason.
I know there is the kickflash and the eflash4000, and even the deneb card, but then A1200 and other non zorro Amigas are left in the darkness .
Having to buy an eprom burner with adapters and having to deal with many difficulties to acomplish a similar goal is not really good. I am all for a comercial solution for this.
My friend Gulliver,
You mean something like Doobrey's A1200 Flashrom prototype?
http://www.doobreynet.co.uk/flash.html
I wish something like this would be made as a commercial solution.
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Hi,
I saw this thread about installing new kickstart roms to A500s and this (probably silly) idea occurred to me: Would it be possible, using some dedicated hardware that translates Rom-signals to whatever-signals-flash-based-storage uses, to use compact flash cards in the place of normal roms (EPROMS?)?
Kinda like the kickflash?
http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/kickflash_e.htm
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My friend Gulliver,
You mean something like Doobrey's A1200 Flashrom prototype?
http://www.doobreynet.co.uk/flash.html
I wish something like this would be made as a commercial solution.
@mfilos
Indeed my friend, something like that would be really great :)
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There's a thread over at a1k.org (http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13078&page=1) that covers this. Programmable kickstart replacement, with software and all.
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Why not just soft kick if you already have a CF ide with your own custom rom file?
Set it up like this:
Turn Amiga on with a floppy in the drive (game or demo) it is going to use the ROM on the motherboard and boot the floppy as expected. (My case 3.1 is the physical rom) Most likely if your booting from floppy you won't wan't a 3.9.x custom hack for compatibility reasons.
If no floppy it will boot from the HD. First thing it does transparently is soft boot your 3.9.x rom, reset and your then you're off and going. If booting from the HD it just loads the HD.
So let's say you want to boot from USB. Plug the USB device in the USB port and even at power on it will softkick/reset/ and start booting your USB drive transparently.
I'd also have a script that when booting from the HD if you hold a key down it will bring up a menu that lets you choose any version of the ROM to softkick. 1.x -> 2.x -> 3.x
Best of every possible world. No custom hardware needed at all.
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Why not just soft kick if you already have a CF ide with your own custom rom file?
Set it up like this:
Turn Amiga on with a floppy in the drive (game or demo) it is going to use the ROM on the motherboard and boot the floppy as expected. (My case 3.1 is the physical rom) Most likely if your booting from floppy you won't wan't a 3.9.x custom hack for compatibility reasons.
If no floppy it will boot from the HD. First thing it does transparently is soft boot your 3.9.x rom, reset and your then you're off and going. If booting from the HD it just loads the HD.
So let's say you want to boot from USB. Plug the USB device in the USB port and even at power on it will softkick/reset/ and start booting your USB drive transparently.
I'd also have a script that when booting from the HD if you hold a key down it will bring up a menu that lets you choose any version of the ROM to softkick. 1.x -> 2.x -> 3.x
Best of every possible world. No custom hardware needed at all.
It is not the best really. You will notice a big boot delay if you do that, and then if you dont have a MMU to protect the memory space where the kickstart is, some program, most likely a patch will probably corrupt that memory area, and guru your Amiga. Another drawback, especially for low end sistems is that you will loose as much memory as your rom occupies (512KB, 1MB or 2MB depending on this new kickstart size). If your disk gets screwed someway, bye bye kickstart.
So there are a lot of disadvantages, and much more that I dont remeber right now.
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It is not the best really. You will notice a big boot delay if you do that,
False.
3.9 already does this and it so fast it is almost undetectable when booting from CF.
and then if you dont have a MMU to protect the memory space where the kickstart is, some program, most likely a patch will probably corrupt that memory area, and guru your Amiga.
False.
Just about everybody that uses 3.9 IS softkicking (except the 3 people that have burned their own 3.9 rom). So this seems very unlikely.
Another drawback, especially for low end sistems is that you will loose as much memory as your rom occupies (512KB, 1MB or 2MB depending on this new kickstart size).
True, but we are talking about people wanting to use a 3.9 kickstart. If you are using 3.9 you have a ram expansion.
If your disk gets screwed someway, bye bye kickstart.
So there are a lot of disadvantages, and much more that I dont remeber right now.
Again this is ridiculous. First of all the kickstart ROM will always be on the motherboard. If your harddrive crashed I think the last thing you would worry about would be a kickstart image file.
This whole posts sounds like you are posting fud.
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False.
3.9 already does this and it so fast it is almost undetectable when booting from CF.
False.
Just about everybody that uses 3.9 IS softkicking (except the 3 people that have burned their own 3.9 rom). So this seems very unlikely.
True, but we are talking about people wanting to use a 3.9 kickstart. If you are using 3.9 you have a ram expansion.
Again this is ridiculous. First of all the kickstart ROM will always be on the motherboard. If your harddrive crashed I think the last thing you would worry about would be a kickstart image file.
This whole posts sounds like you are posting fud.
I am sorry if you felt it that way, but it was not apersonal attack on you, it is based on facts:
Loading only a few modules like the AmigaOS ROm Update does, it is not the same as softkicking an entire kickstart. And having a rom with all the updates you want is much faster than loading them from disk anytime. Try it.
And again if your harddrive fails for some reason, you will end up with your old kickstart, with all the bugs and unsuported features it has, just to name a few examples: no >4GB disk access and no USB support, etc. So for example, if you relied on USB to boot with mouse and keyboard, then you simply will have to buy an Amiga mouse and proper Amiga keyboard, because your USB ones, wont work.
And not everyone that uses 3.9, softkicks. Many arent able to use Rom Updates at all.
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Elbox FastATA is a IDE controller which plugs on Kickstart Socket (and Gayle) but it doesn't act as a kickstart ROM.
Overall this idea is unncessarily complex. It will be hard to configure a mass storage drive to act both as a Kickstart ROM and IDE drive. better to seperate these functions into two simpler boards, the IDe drive (which is available for 68000 socket) and kickstart flashable ROM (available as some hobby projects.)
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I agree, it should be probably simpler to split both functions.
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thanks for the replies everyone,
so I guess I've got my answer: there seems to be agreement that the ROM header cannot possibly address more than 1MB so, my idea of using it for large-scale flash storage (akin to a HDD) is out of the question. Oh well, there's always AdIDE for A500s I guess.
I'm personally not that interested in changing the kickstart itself (I'm amazed that as much effort has gone into dedicated projects to do so), as kickstart switching hardware is abundant and the chips themselves do not seem to be in sort supply. Even when considering custom kickstarts, such as the fabled 3.9, I cannot imagine much more than marginal improvements in performance by having some of the OS in ROM (some of which may be offset by comparatively slower access times on fast systems).
If a way could be found though to add cheap flash based storage to all amigas, then this is a different story. I bet that a full commercial run of AdIDE68k (and a CD32 version of it) would be a huge success.
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These are great if you can find one: http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/ide68k.html