Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: haywirepc on March 09, 2010, 06:52:00 AM
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I was wondering, with the multitude of people turning the ps3 into a full computer and many other things going on in the world of technology, gaming and entertainment...
Will there ever be a computer like the amiga again?
What if some company marketed an inexpensive pc/console combo that could hook into any tv or monitor, and was perhaps a bit light on processor but heavy on custom chips or a great os...
What if someone marketed a linux based small pc/games console with a customized linux opensource modded out the wazoo os, would that interest anyone?
What if that computer could run dos, windows, linux and amiga games and programs, would that be of interst to people today if it was inexpensive enough and had the right kind of case/packaging? I am thinking of an all in one pc/console like the 500 or 1200...
What if it had some kind of equivelant of custom chips, or because it was mass produced and programmers could talk right to hardware again, would that interest more people?
Would it catch on in todays market? Seems to me that there has to be room for another platform other than wintel pcs and macintel machines...
Is there room in the market in todays times for such a computer/entertainment console? What do you think?
Steven
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Custom chips sound great and you could at least make it easy to put the OS on an small SSD drive or ROM. The problem is the cost of development, you could build a cheaper computer with off the shelf parts and getting volume discounts.
We do have some custom built hobbyist computers like the Natami, they seem to have pretty grandiose plans for it. Could be a new Amiga, wait and see.
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The sad fact is, that it will never happen. Most companies will not spend the time/money to innovate or create new hardware/ custom chips. They will continue to build boxes with off the shelf technology- it is way cheaper.
The netbooks tried to sell with linux, and the public demanded they have Windows, even though the linux boxes cost less. I know when the ASUS EEEPC came out, all my customers wanted one and paid me to put Windows on all of them, even though they only had a 4 gig hard drive. We sold over a hundred, and NOT ONE customer would even TRY the linux install.
So the MASS public will continue to demand Windows, because they are familiar with it.
That, in a nutshell, is why in the last 15 years, linux has not taken a lead over Windows, and never will. That is also why a custom chip/ hardware computer will never outsell an X86 or ARM processor box (and the only reason the ARM is gaining ground is because people have no clue its not X86).
Companies will only take chances on proven and cheap technology, that they know they can flog to the average joe out there. Plain and simple.
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I see your point about windows and I have faced the same resistance everytime someone calls me. Being the nerd in your family/neighborhood...
People call me or ask me for computer help all the time. My standard answer to most problems is "install linux." because most often its spyware, viruses or related problems. They don't want to hear that, your right they want windows.
What if it ran windows on a vpc that could be easily rebooted if infected?
In other words, this dream amigalike console entertain system would have compiz, with one one the 4 sides of the cube being windows... Would that satisfy the masses and make people want to use our ficticious pc?
Steven
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I mostly agree with quarkx's response, though I'll point out a few things.
The PC platform came to life (as a gaming platform and Amiga replacement) when they started dedicating hardware to particular functions like graphics, and Microsoft made DirectX. The same goes for the games console when Sony entered the arena and pushed dedicated hardware. The Amiga succeeded for a while too because of dedicated hardware, whereas the game consoles of that era were really made from off-the-shelf hardware, and the PC's gaming abilities were a bit of a joke in comparison.
The PC doesn't consist of off-the-shelf hardware, it's all specifically designed for that role. Game developers have a pretty solid platform to build on, even though it is stagnating (allegedly because the hardware is too far ahead and the developers can't keep up - not sure - I can see how it might be true).
If the PC continues to make a retreat from high-end gaming, that will leave a niche (but which the console manufacturers will try to cater for - perhaps they are already, it's all a matter of taste), but requires a lot of attention for a new player to try and cater for it. If Microsoft were to screw up utterly again now (which they did with Vista, but I think they've saved themselves with Win7), then it leaves room for a potential new player in the desktop OS market, but that requires even more attention than the gaming market.
If a new player were to try and enter either of those example markets (that's assuming they have the backing of a big player like say a hardware manufacturer - nvidia is a possibility due to their lagging behind in general), it would be a MASSIVE achievement, perhaps dwarfed by the second coming of Christ, but I'm trying to find something to put it in its proper perspective :) It would be almost as large an achievement if Canonical managed to push Ubuntu to be a major player in any consumer market, and they have quite a few important advantages going for them.
So I think an Amiga platform needs to target a niche market, and not a dwindling bunch of sceptical fans that liked something that Amiga was once.
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No there wont be another Amiga, like there wont be another Commodore 64.
Both of them still have such a community spirit and even hardware that is still being produced, though the company that made them went bust with bad management.
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The answer is NO!
There will never be another experience like the Amiga. The infancy of home computers where there were many different choices that actually had a chance to compete with each other will never repeat itself in the same way. The concept of home computers that started before the Amiga and ended when Intel and Microsoft gained their monopolies in market shares is over and for it to repeat would take something revolutionary, not evolutionary. It will take the creation of something that has not even been thought of or dreamed of. Something completely new and hopefully not anything that can be bought my Microsoft, or Intel.
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Yes I fear you may be right... Remember "Back in the day" when there were tons of computers to pick from, and everyone argued why their choice was superior?
Because of the x86 intel and amd dominance, that type of competition seems long gone, as evidenced by mac's switch to intel processors.
Does anyone else miss that time when there were lots of different computers, using lots of different processors, operating systems and
enviorments? I sure do...
Somehow, I think the market is still ready for something different, but I think the focus has now shifted away from hardware and one to software.
Just think about x86 now. You can run windows.. Dos like freedos if your a little retro nuts... Mac,linux, aros, haiku and a few others that are gaining ground.
To me, its as if the diversity has left the hardware and entered the purely software arena, as hardware is so cheap to get if you go mainstream many have just opted to produce different software.
Is software the new diversity that used to be different hardware platforms? Is everyone just forced to use x86 now? what do you think?
Steven
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I'll add my voice to the "No" camp. Amiga was at a time when hardware was evolving from some pretty basic and very limited hardware to the systems we have today. The limits back then were what could be done reasonably with the limits of hardware without making the cost prohibitive. Today, hardware is cheap and evolving to mobile market. Desktops are giving way to notebooks/netbooks/tablets or gaming consoles for the average person. OSs that fail to evolve to take full advantage of hardware's physical and tech changes are doomed.
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There are already millions of computers like the Amiga in homes around the World. The fact is, very PC and Mac today has custom chips in the form of the GPU on the graphics card and the SPU on the sound card.
My Mac is used as a Media Center with Plex, Streaming 1080p content from the Internet or from a 2Tb external HD, using my iPhone as a touch-sensitive wi-fi remote. It's used for playing games with detail, resolution and gameplay Amigas could only dream about, for using the Internet, for everything. And it can hook into any TV or monitor available today since any new TV is going to have DVI or HDMI ports. And it's a third of the size and less than half the weight of my old A1200.
Why would anyone want to go back 25 years in time to a computer as limited as the Amiga when today's Mac can do 1000 times as much, 1000 times faster and for a fraction of the cost.
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People call me or ask me for computer help all the time. My standard answer to most problems is "install linux."
If that's your answer to every computer problem it's a wonder anyone keeps calling you. I can lock down a Windows machine in five minutes, spend five more minutes educating the user, and that's the end of it. That locked down machine will be just as usable to the customer as it was when I started, so no, it doesn't involve deleting their user account :P
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There are already millions of computers like the Amiga in homes around the World. The fact is, very PC and Mac today has custom chips in the form of the GPU on the graphics card and the SPU on the sound card.
My Mac is used as a Media Center with Plex, Streaming 1080p content from the Internet or from a 2Tb external HD, using my iPhone as a touch-sensitive wi-fi remote. It's used for playing games with detail, resolution and gameplay Amigas could only dream about, for using the Internet, for everything. And it can hook into any TV or monitor available today since any new TV is going to have DVI or HDMI ports. And it's a third of the size and less than half the weight of my old A1200.
Why would anyone want to go back 25 years in time to a computer as limited as the Amiga when today's Mac can do 1000 times as much, 1000 times faster and for a fraction of the cost.
I agree with you, but A-eon is going to try just such a feat! :confused:
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Well, while there won't be an Amiga again... there is something else starting to take hold. Yes, Linux has not won the desktop - but the desktop is slowing becoming less of a factor. Most people I know now put more money into their Cell Phone/PDA - like iPhone or other Smartphones - than they do their pc. I am still using the same PC I built 3 years ago - but I just got an iPhone and over the next 2 years will put more money into it than I have spent on PC hardware over the last 3 years.
The next generation of users will not care about powerful boxes at home - it will be mobile with digital distribution. If you own stock in Gamestop - sell it now - the day of buying anything in a store that is digital content is coming to an end very soon. Who buys CDs, DVDs, etc? People who want to waste money. Music is cheaper on iTunes. Netflix makes movies way cheaper to rent/stream and most TV content can be found legally free to view on the net (So who even needs cable TV?)
Microsoft has just released a new Xbox Elite with 250GB drive- why? Because they realize there is more profit to be made with digital distribution. Download Content (DLC) is where the real profit is for Microsoft and game developers. It cuts out the cost of physical media creation/distribution, it cuts out dealing with companies like Wal-mart... and it kills the hated (and non royalty paying) used game market. I remember an article by the people who made Left 4 Dead - there where upset that there where over 2x the number of unique Xbox Live accounts played their game than bought it new - used sells was huge for this game and it hurt there market potential cause people like me always wait for a used copy.
If I can get it cheaper used, I always do, but under Digital distribution that is not even an option so I will have to buy it new or skip it - and most games won't skip sequels to their favorite titles. Plus, its harder to pirate cause they have to hack the distribution source - not just the install program.
If there is to be another Amiga - it will be a media intense, gaming, mobile device that has great connectivity to web based applications. Microsoft has been reporting working on a web-based office - they see the writing on the wall - so they can sell service - not media/install/support headaches.
The war for the desktop is moot since the real money will be in other places. Don't believe me, get an iPhone and see how much you really need your desktop. You could argue the iPhone is the spirit of the Amiga. It went against conventional wisdom and showed much larger phone makers like Nokia and Motorola that there was more to a phone than talking and text.
Amiga showed me there was more to computing than a command line and poorly written dos programs. If you want to see another Amiga - get the guys trying to make a desktop OS - like AROS - make an OS for a smartphone. Then the Amiga could be truly reborn.
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I agree with you, but A-eon is going to try just such a feat! :confused:
No they are not. They are giving pretty much top possible PPC solution which will be about upper end netbook if the ARM dual cores come out at the same time. Problem for A-EON, there isn't much further to go on the PPC road after this.
Of course the high end netbook with dual core ARM is going to be far cheaper then the X1000.
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No they are not. They are giving pretty much top possible PPC solution which will be about upper end netbook if the ARM dual cores come out at the same time. Problem for A-EON, there isn't much further to go on the PPC road after this.
Of course the high end netbook with dual core ARM is going to be far cheaper then the X1000.
Is AROS targeted to dual core ARM notebooks? Heck you guys run on everything else, I say go for it (if you're not already).
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Is AROS targeted to dual core ARM notebooks? Heck you guys run on everything else, I say go for it (if you're not already).
ARM yes (Dr. Schulz is working on that project on a EFIKA-MX netbook), but AROS is stuck with the 3.1 API so I highly doubt you will see AROS ever being a full SMP OS on any system.
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"If that's your answer to every computer problem it's a wonder anyone keeps calling you. I can lock down a Windows machine in five minutes, spend five more minutes educating the user, and that's the end of it. That locked down machine will be just as usable to the customer as it was when I started, so no, it doesn't involve deleting their user account :P "
No I generally do fix their problems, but I always suggest linux because its rock solid, harder to break and no spyware/malware/adware problems most of the time...
Steven
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Yes I fear you may be right... Remember "Back in the day" when there were tons of computers to pick from, and everyone argued why their choice was superior?
Does anyone else miss that time when there were lots of different computers, using lots of different processors, operating systems and
enviorments? I sure do...
one of the problems with this time period that I can recall, is that the large number of different manufacturers / OS's put the user on their own island looking for support/parts for their system. We both lived in phila, and I can only remember 1 real company that provided Amiga products and support, softwarehut. There may have been a few shops where one could buy an A500 here and there. Mail order wasn't as popular as it is now, and most of the good stuff was over in the U.K.
Not to mention the insane prices due to smaller markets, and the time period / cost for upgrades was monumental at the time. Memory prices, accelerator prices, HD prices, etc. There is a reason why a number of amiga fanatics I knew at the time only had a base A500 or second hand A1000. I recall when a friend bought an A2000 with a small HD and a 2meg agnus upgrade, it was well over $2,000 in 1989.
with the worldwide acceptance of wintel, we benefit from huge economies of scale, super-fast hardware and afforable prices. memory and HD space are practically free by comparison to that time period.
If there were 10 different systems / OS's today, I don't think these benefits of inexpensive hardware would be here today.
If someone told me in the early Amiga days, that my shuttle SFF computer with Win7 would be timeshifting 1080 HD video and sending it over a home network to a number of Xbox360's in crystal clear HD w/ 5.1 I would have thought it was something from outer space. Although I did get the pleasure of working with a toaster / flyer in 1995 and the Amiga was no doubt ahead of it's time. Maybe the Amiga could have been my 1080 processing machine if it lived.
with that said, I have a personal attachment to my amiga collection that isn't there with even my most powerful wintel boxes. maybe it's because it truely was an exciting time to be a computer geek.
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ARM yes (Dr. Schulz is working on that project on a EFIKA-MX netbook), but AROS is stuck with the 3.1 API so I highly doubt you will see AROS ever being a full SMP OS on any system.
Can you sandbox your 3.1 dependencies and break away in that direction?
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"If that's your answer to every computer problem it's a wonder anyone keeps calling you. I can lock down a Windows machine in five minutes, spend five more minutes educating the user, and that's the end of it. That locked down machine will be just as usable to the customer as it was when I started, so no, it doesn't involve deleting their user account :P "
No I generally do fix their problems, but I always suggest linux because its rock solid, harder to break and no spyware/malware/adware problems most of the time...
Steven
Well hey, at least you said harder to break and not impossible to break. :)
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Can you sandbox your 3.1 dependencies and break away in that direction?
That was mostly the solution for AnibusOS. Not sure what should be the follow on to Anubis at this point in time since that project is mostly dead. But when the main dev has more time, I'll pester him this Summer on what could be done in a reasonable time period.
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I know there is a bounty for the first step in getting smp going on aros.
I think most devs want to get the system more bug fixes and get to total 3.1 api compatibility, THEN add smp and other features that would step away from the 3.1 set. Remember the goal was a free open source amiga os3.1 clone. Once that goal is reached, I'm sure they will advance and add more things not possible or envisioned in os3.1.
I think annubis was agreat idea and I hope they get somewhere with it.
I'd run it, especially if it could run linux and amiga os apps, and being based on linux would probably run many windows apps with wine.
Steven
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@ haywirepc
the X1000 looks promising and it's gonna be the first Amiga branded computer running AmigaOS natively in over 15 years !
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@ haywirepc
the X1000 looks promising and it's gonna be the first Amiga branded computer running AmigaOS natively in over 15 years !
I want to see this in a proprietary case w/ a nice keyboard and mouse. Not a generic looking POS tower and chinsey $5 keyboard and mouse. There's a major tactile issue that's missing with modern computing. Today's input devices feel like they're going to break at any given moment. The Mac's were coming close, but then cheesed out with those stupid chicklet keyboards.
The case should be as unique (while still functional and expandable) as the OS it's running. Just like Amiga -used- to be. So yeah, I'd be among the majority that feels there will never be a computer like it. Not even the X1000. Times are too different. We've all grown older and most of the hectic lifestyles, priorities and economics of today will never allow us to fully enjoy a new computer as the originals did all those years ago. That's not to say I wouldn't try. lol Looking forward to this X1000 machine!
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@ haywirepc
the X1000 looks promising and it's gonna be the first Amiga branded computer running AmigaOS natively in over 15 years !
First, X1000 is not an Amiga, it's a AmigaOne. Second, AmigaOne with Teron mobo, was prior to the X1000. Third, it's basically the end of the line for PPC machines, I doubt there will be anything following this dual core G4 system, if any one will be able to afford it. Fourth, as far as desktops go, the X1000 might be considered a midrange in today's market place at best. At worst, it's going to preform at the $300 bargain basement level. All in all, I know what an Amiga looks like, and the X1000 ain't it.
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First, X1000 is not an Amiga, it's a AmigaOne. Second, AmigaOne with Teron mobo, was prior to the X1000. Third, it's basically the end of the line for PPC machines, I doubt there will be anything following this dual core G4 system, if any one will be able to afford it. Fourth, as far as desktops go, the X1000 might be considered a midrange in today's market place at best. At worst, it's going to preform at the $300 bargain basement level. All in all, I know what an Amiga looks like, and the X1000 ain't it.
An amigaone is an amiga. It runs amiga software, it has "amiga" in the name, and is made by the amiga's owners. So weird-program-xyz doesn't run, big whup. You can't "feel" the chipset being there. The bits of bakealite soldered to the motherboard are utterly irrelevant. For future reference, an aros pc, morphos machine, and an amilithon/dedicated winuae box are all functionally amigas. else macs are not macs, and pcs are not pcs. I can't run Microsoft basic software by booting my PC with no OS anymore, can't run dos programs either under windows 7 (can't even run windows 3.1 software under windows 7). Can't run macpaint from 1984 on a mac pro. Macs are still macs, pcs are still PCs. Logically, amigas are also amigas.
And what does an amiga look like?
(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vortex69/A1200/A1200-Tower.jpg)
This?
(http://amiga.erkan.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/amiga-1200-tower-case.JPG)
Or this?
(http://www.waltercedric.com/pc/amiga/im/amiga.jpg)
Or even this? All are commodore designed a1200s.
Oh, and the x1000 isn't rocking a G4. It's a new processor.
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So... all computers are amigas because with AROS, uae, amithlon or other all can run amiga software? my palm centro with palmuae is an amiga?
I think thats going a bit too far but hey have fun with it.
as for the thread:
will there ever be another car like the ford model T or '57 chevy?
will there ever be a music system like a phonograph?
there are kids that are nostalgic for the playstation 2.
there are adults that are nostalgic for an '95 honda goldwing.
it all depends on what you mean. i think there are computers like the amiga. my aros powered multighz, multigb machine has a very modern yet very amiga feel to it.
to each his own.
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An amigaone is an amiga.
Accept it can't be called an Amiga, Hyperion only has "AmigaOne" name.
It runs amiga software, it has "amiga" in the name, and is made by the amiga's owners.
So was the Teron mobo that Eyetech dished out. I didn't call that an "Amiga" either. Technically, none of them can be called an "Amiga" as that is the sole property of AI.
So weird-program-xyz doesn't run, big whup. You can't "feel" the chipset being there. The bits of bakealite soldered to the motherboard are utterly irrelevant. For future reference, an aros pc, morphos machine, and an amilithon/dedicated winuae box are all functionally amigas. else macs are not macs, and pcs are not pcs. I can't run Microsoft basic software by booting my PC with no OS anymore, can't run dos programs either under windows 7 (can't even run windows 3.1 software under windows 7). Can't run macpaint from 1984 on a mac pro. Macs are still macs, pcs are still PCs. Logically, amigas are also amigas.
For most folks, an "Amiga" was a 68K with a custom chipset. That was pretty special back then.
Oh, and the x1000 isn't rocking a G4. It's a new processor.
It's a dual G4 SOC. For $2000 USD, I'm not too impressed TBH.
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@save 2600
I've been told (my copy hasnt arrived yet), based on interviews in Amiga Future magazine by A-Eon, the X1000 will be shipped with AmigaOne branded case, keyboard and mouse :-)
@ Dammy
..sadly it sounds like you already made up your mind :-( ...I run OS4.1 with Update 1 natively on my Samflex and I am very happy with it..it's by far the best AmigaOS system that I have ever owned and I assume people will be saying the same about the X1000 :-)
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A different point of view. The original post got me feeling all philosophical. Grin
Why?
Why do we need this validation? I'm OK with the rest of the world desiring a different computer solution than what I value. (Keeps the bugs out!)
Most of the ppl who log in here have many Amigas, enough to last beyond the next time/date bug. Our 1990s investment has also been updated with standards and technology that were unforseen when the machines were designed. They're still fantastic and the rest of the world is fickle, grin. Improvements, especially important ones, are still coming.
Also, most ppl here have other platforms for standards that are inconvenient on Amigas.
There are ppl who say (justifiably) that Amiga is dead. All my machines have a bright future. They have already lived far past many other younger machines. I'm not too far from content.
My 2 cents.
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Accept it can't be called an Amiga, Hyperion only has "AmigaOne" name.
Are you serious? Do you think I could, for example sell a product called "SonyOne PlayStationOne"?
So was the Teron mobo that Eyetech dished out. I didn't call that an "Amiga" either. Technically, none of them can be called an "Amiga" as that is the sole property of AI.
AI.
Amiga Inc.
The company that has cesed operations and no longer exists? How can you own something that doesn't exist? At any rate Hyperion have the rights (technically a perpetual, worldwide licence) to everything. They are marketing it as a new Amiga. It is a new Amiga.
For most folks, an "Amiga" was a 68K with a custom chipset. That was pretty special back then.
Back then as in pre 1990. AGA sucked in comparison to vga, was very late, and came at a time when the mainstream had almost switched to PCs. It's not special now. It does nothing a 15 year old graphics chip can't do. To me, an amiga runs amigaOS or something that is, for all intents and purposes, an amiga. No chipset? Good. Saves development time and cost, and UAE is that way. 68K or the chipset isn't what gives it the "feeling". That's maybe the wedge case, but mostly the operating system.
It's a dual G4 SOC. For $2000 USD, I'm not too impressed TBH.
I'll go slow, maybe you'll get it this time:
IT.
IS.
NOT.
A.
G4.
@KThunder: Nah your pda isn't an amiga system. Nah my pc with WinUAE isn't an amiga system. They, arguably, become an amiga when the emulator is launched, and stop being an amiga when it is closed. What I can say for certainty, is that they deserve to be recognised as amigas if all they do is Amiga stuff. Amilithon rig? Amiga. Stripped winxp that has winuae set to replace explorer.exe? Amiga. x86 machine that only boots aros? Amiga.
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That, in a nutshell, is why in the last 15 years, linux has not taken a lead over Windows, and never will. That is also why a custom chip/ hardware computer will never outsell an X86 or ARM processor box (and the only reason the ARM is gaining ground is because people have no clue its not X86).
Companies will only take chances on proven and cheap technology, that they know they can flog to the average joe out there. Plain and simple.
I think this about sums it up on why both OS4 and MorphOS are doomed to fail.
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Arm is selling becuase they've been adopted into the cell phone market really well. Fast enough and low power. They're also cool with licensing terms. When's the last time you saw a licensed intel x86 cpu?
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I think this about sums it up on why both OS4 and MorphOS are doomed to fail.
If anything they'll fail when the last of the amiga users dies out. The rate of replacement is too low. Sure, people my age are tinkering with them, but that's one in how many million?
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AI.
Amiga Inc.
The company that has cesed operations and no longer exists?
What makes you think they have ceased operation and no longer exist? Because their website is down? Don't get me wrong, I hope AInc. really is history as they appear to be, but beyond their site being down I don't think you have much more evidence that they are truly "gone".
How can you own something that doesn't exist? At any rate Hyperion have the rights (technically a perpetual, worldwide licence) to everything. They are marketing it as a new Amiga.
A-eon is not Hyperion.
It is a new Amiga.
If so, then that's pretty sad. Back in the mid-80s when I thought about where the Amiga might be in the 21st century it sure was a lot more than the X1000.
I'll go slow, maybe you'll get it this time:
IT.
IS.
NOT.
A.
G4.
How do you know it's not a G4? The specifics haven't been released yet. It could very well be a G4, but that doesn't matter. What we do know is that it will be some PPC variant which might just as well be a G4. Dammy's premise is that PPC on the desktop is on the decline (to put it mildly) - it could be the best PPC ever devised and it still wouldn't make any difference.
You might recall the fellow a few months ago who polled not only the Amiga forums but also Linux and a few others to try to determine the interest in a new PPC motherboard (not OS4 specific). His results indicated that there isn't enough interest to make producing such a motherboard profitable. From what we know of the X1000 it isn't even designed to appeal to a general "PPC audience" if there was one, which there isn't. In the 80's the Amiga had appeal because it broke new ground in the consumer marketplace. It showed people that computers could bring excitement and creativity into their daily lives.
Nowdays everyone has a computer, they are part of the landscape. If the X1000 is to live up to the kind of legacy that the real Amiga had it will have to be a lot more than your typical PC or Mac, so will OS4. So far Hyperion and Co. don't seem to be able to muster that kind of creativity. The AmigaOne, the SAM, the X1000 - are little more than the red-headed stepchild of the real Amiga. If I'm wrong then let me know when it begins displacing other products in sectors outside of the fanboi community.
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No.
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A non-windows home computer/games system could be built again. The trick would be for someone like Acer to partner with Adobe and at the same time start building a good gaming SDK.
My son plays a lot of flash games. While a lot of the games are crap, there are actually a lot of them that are really quit good. When I say a lot, I mean A LOT. Basicly what would be need would be:
* Acer supply the Revo in a game system case. It is mostly there now.
* Adobe to add gamepad support to flash.
* Have the default setup so that a non-chatty Linux loads and boots into a full screen flash dashboard
* Write a decent dashboard in flash that can run the flash games and act as an 'app store'
With this approach, Acer could have their own game system ready for market with an extremely small team, tiny budget, and the system could be released at under $200.
Now, this approach could be massively improved from there with a little forethough. Things like, making sure that the system can boot from a USB port would greatly increase their market, as geeks could buy the system knowing that they could always repurpose it to a generic PC. For the general user, they would get a good gaming system, and for the enthusiast, they could boot into the simple game system, or plug in a usb drive and have a system they could run whatever they want on.
Anyone could write software for the system, and there would be a huge library from day 1. Since the initial environment being flash, would be 100% abstracted, they would not be locked into an x86 world, although they could stay there as long as they wanted.
They could follow up the initial release with added functionality like the ability to run C64 software, DOS software, Amiga software, etc...
The possibilities go on and on. The key is to keep everything abstracted. Heck, they could even go so far as to use a Wine, or ReactOS image running on a PC emulator to package up Windows games. By doing it that way, they don't tie themselves down to x86 and they don't care if future versions of the software have regression errors. They also don't have to care if ugly hacks are necessary to get the specific title to work, since the entire OS has been stripped down, and tweaked for the specific app.
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What makes you think they have ceased operation and no longer exist? Because their website is down? Don't get me wrong, I hope AInc. really is history as they appear to be, but beyond their site being down I don't think you have much more evidence that they are truly "gone".
They don't answer the phone, there was only ever one person working in the "office", they had no products beyond 1990s era abandonware that they probably bought the rights to for nearly nothing, and they havent got their website - the one thing capable of generating them money- back online. That all points to a clar lack of amiga Inc.
A-eon is not Hyperion.
No, but they are buisness partners producing hardware for Hyperion. Try to keep up.
If so, then that's pretty sad. Back in the mid-80s when I thought about where the Amiga might be in the 21st century it sure was a lot more than the X1000.
What are they supposed to do then? porting to x86 would be a legacy support nightmare, and this is probably the best PPC motherboard being designed and made new. This is not their fault. If anything, the holy church of commodore fucked that one up before the 1990s even rolled round.
How do you know it's not a G4? The specifics haven't been released yet. It could very well be a G4, but that doesn't matter. What we do know is that it will be some PPC variant which might just as well be a G4. Dammy's premise is that PPC on the desktop is on the decline (to put it mildly) - it could be the best PPC ever devised and it still wouldn't make any difference.
Lets play this fun new game called reading.
The X1000 processor currently has very limited availability, and you've probably never seen one in the wild, so don't worry too much about it. For now, please be content with knowing that it's a dual-core Power Architecture™
The G4 is everywhere. this one currently is nowhere. Therefore, not a G4. Point me to a dual core G4.
You might recall the fellow a few months ago who polled not only the Amiga forums but also Linux and a few others to try to determine the interest in a new PPC motherboard (not OS4 specific). His results indicated that there isn't enough interest to make producing such a motherboard profitable. From what we know of the X1000 it isn't even designed to appeal to a general "PPC audience" if there was one, which there isn't. In the 80's the Amiga had appeal because it broke new ground in the consumer marketplace. It showed people that computers could bring excitement and creativity into their daily lives.
In the 80s the amiga had appeal because thats what the other kids at school had. The majority of amiga users don't know it was a computer. It was just a games console with a keyboard to them. Sure, if you were working in a TV station in an NTSC country, you might have seen some VT2000s. Thats it. People who used amigas as actual, general purpose computers were few and far between.
Nowdays everyone has a computer, they are part of the landscape. If the X1000 is to live up to the kind of legacy that the real Amiga had it will have to be a lot more than your typical PC or Mac, so will OS4. So far Hyperion and Co. don't seem to be able to muster that kind of creativity. The AmigaOne, the SAM, the X1000 - are little more than the red-headed stepchild of the real Amiga. If I'm wrong then let me know when it begins displacing other products in sectors outside of the fanboi community.
So your saying machines that are better than the classic amiga are somehow worse? "detachable keyboards! networking! dvd-rom drives! a CPU that goes faster than 50mhz! the horror! the horror!"
The amiga can never be mainstream again. It never really was. The 500 and 1200 were treated by the general public as "toy computers" or "games consoles". the 1000 was less popular than voluntary HIV (yes. that is a thing. people are actually willingly catching aids). The 2000,3000, and 4000 were never popular at home.
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The history of home computers during their brief period from say 1981 to 1994 was dominated by computer and computer manufacturers operating system being one entity. With the exception of the Mac nothing really survived after Commodore went to the wall. Microsoft dominated because they didn`t make hardware. [ I discount consoles ]. And that is how it is today. More likely is the prospect of an independant OS manufacturer creating an Amiga style interface to run on most standard machines without the need for custom chips. The chances of there ever being another true Amiga is probably zero. Times have moved on and the demand is just not there. Sad I know, but at least some of us lived through the era of 81-94 and can reflect on just how truly wonderful a period it was if you loved computers. ' We were spoilt rotten '.
scuzz
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The G4 is everywhere. this one currently is nowhere. Therefore, not a G4. Point me to a dual core G4.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/04/08/18/motorola_developing_dual_core_powerpc_g4_mpc_7447a_successor.html
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=DRPPCDUALCORE
"G4" is a Mac name. A dual-core PPC chip exists from the same manufacturer and it's compatible. Sure, we could be pedantic and say it's not a G4, but it probably would've been if Apple hadn't abandoned the PPC architecture.
Either way, PPC, hot technology half a decade (or more) ago!
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This new dual core chip probably would have came under the name G6. It's all marketing.
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I doubt they would've put it a model above their expensive G5, that would've been horrible marketing. It sounds like it was supposed to be a lower power solution for laptops, at the time "Dual G4!!" probably would've sold laptops just fine.
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Are you serious? Do you think I could, for example sell a product called "SonyOne PlayStationOne"?
Go read the settlement paperwork, it plainly states Hyperion has rights to AmigaOne but Amiga is reserved for AI.
AI.
Amiga Inc.
The company that has cesed operations and no longer exists? How can you own something that doesn't exist? At any rate Hyperion have the rights (technically a perpetual, worldwide licence) to everything. They are marketing it as a new Amiga. It is a new Amiga.
You can call it anything you wish, Hyperion and it's partners are restricted to AmigaOne designation.
Back then as in pre 1990. AGA sucked in comparison to vga, was very late, and came at a time when the mainstream had almost switched to PCs. It's not special now. It does nothing a 15 year old graphics chip can't do. To me, an amiga runs amigaOS or something that is, for all intents and purposes, an amiga. No chipset? Good. Saves development time and cost, and UAE is that way. 68K or the chipset isn't what gives it the "feeling". That's maybe the wedge case, but mostly the operating system.
I'm old school, tight integration of OS and hardware is what made the Amiga special. X1000 does not share this status any more then ASUS mobos.
I'll go slow, maybe you'll get it this time:
IT.
IS.
NOT.
A.
G4.
Oh, G3 class cores?
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This new dual core chip probably would have came under the name G6. It's all marketing.
Your saying the cores are not comparable to the G3, G4, nor G5 cores? It will be very interesting to see who invested their $ with IBM (and I guess Freescale) to create a new PPC core.
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Probably not. The Amiga was able to do things in video and sound that other computers weren't even able to dream about.
The AmigaOne has standalone microprocessors that are good for robotics permanently tied to the machine, not really an advance anywhere. VIdeo, naw, sound, nothing to write home about, graphics, Fugetaboutit!!! You can't even sync your music collection.
There will never be another Amiga, we are not in an industry that works that way anymore. Everyone has a computer in their homes now. They carry computers around with them. It's a much more mature industry.
Let's face it, if you are a developer with a world beating idea where are you going to go? To a machine that number in the hundreds with an almost non-existant development environment or one that sits in everyone's home? Or to a rich development environment like iPhone/iPad/Ipod.
Indeed the closest thing to a game changer was the iPhone. Windows Mobile sucked, it was Windows on a small screen, hard to use, hard to understand. Apple created a simple device that just worked.
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In the 90's computer users were still enthusiasts and wanted to learn about computers. Now every Joe on the street has a computer or console. They can blurb out enough lines to communicate to sales guy what they want and they assume the computer will have Windows installed.
I imagine the enthusiasts have tinkered with Linux, but it doesn't have enough features to wow their friends.
You probably could build a better Mac-ish system, but you'd need to have something special that can turn heads. Have you seen the Asus EEpc keyboard?
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I'm not saying that the iPhone sucks, but to say that it was designed as a device that "Just Works" is a huge stretch. The thing didn't even do cut and paste when it was released. It still can't be used as a mass storage device, and if you plug it into a PC, you can't even put music on it without going online, downloading, and installing some extra software. Sure iTunes isn't exactly a driver, but at the end of the day, it might as well be.
A better way to describe it would be, "It just works, AFTER downloading and installing the right software, as long as you don't plug it into the wrong computer, and you don't consider all of the things that it should be able to do trivially, but can't."
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People always think about the custom chips and how you can't do that anymore these days. And I think they are right, but Amiga was Amiga to me for more reasons than the custom chips. Of course at the time they were far ahead of most other things # of color wise, speed etc, but it was how they were used.
Things I would want in a "new" Amiga that MorphOS, AOS4, and AROS don't have and part of the reason a lot of people don't feel like they are the continuation of Amiga 68k.
First, ROM. I want to be able to boot to something useful with no HD or Floppy or whatever.
I think a "new" Amiga would be ROM based like the old ones. The ROM how ever would be easily flashable and much much larger to hold drivers for modern hardware.
Second, support for modern advanced hardware. By this I mean, x86, 3D card support, etc. With such limited resources I am all for a "Spec" machine. i.e. a we say Amiga IS a specfic CPU, a specific GPU card set, etc.
Third, etc....
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I missed out on the Amiga days, as I was growing up on the ignorant PC platform. The A-EON will be great (if it can sell) and it isn't a 74XX (G4) Chip as thats not in the POWERISA 2.04. What is are: Titan, PWRficient, 970(G5)
I think the PWRficient will be the one to be in the A-EON as it is rarely seen in the wild (Since PA Semi was snapped up).
As for the OP's question, no, the Amiga cannot exist as it did in the 80's, because of Micro$haft and Steve Jobs turning into a Pr!ck for going intel (The PA-6T outperformed the Core Duo) but I forgive him, but I won't buy a Macbook until he revives the names: PowerMac, Powerbook, iBook. Because Mac Pro, MAcbook (Pro) suck compared to it.
I also love my G4 mac because I delight in OSX 5 working so well while SpamDows CEMENT (Win CE, ME, NT) run unusably in VPC and Q. And at least Apple's minimum specs for each OS X make sure the machine can run OS X decently.
As for Dammy, the PPC platform has just as much potential as the day the 601 was unveiled, but the higher cost and x86 BS being spread ruined its chances, the new i7 still can't do what a 603 can (Run in Big Endian, produce good Power-to-watt ratios)
If the PS3 was turned into a home computer with a custom Linux running windows under an emu layer, people wouldn't know its PPC and stuff. Also, tell me when an x86 can run an x64 application, because PPCs can run 64bits if needed (at a slight drop in performance.)
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The PPC was always behind in speed. Cheaper PCs could just do more calculations than the PPCs available at the time. Finally Apple realized their salesmanship wouldn't make up for the fact the machines weren't as powerful as the competition and quit using them.
I've got some G4's here, they work. That's about all I can say about them. Need speed? G4's not your man.
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Maybe on speed, but FP and clock for clock made up for it, I have to say if PPC got the same support as x86, it would've been great. It still has potential to surpass x86, as long as development continues.
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First, ROM. I want to be able to boot to something useful with no HD or Floppy or whatever.
I think a "new" Amiga would be ROM based like the old ones. The ROM how ever would be easily flashable and much much larger to hold drivers for modern hardware.
... Or you could just install a Flash drive instead of a Hard drive.
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Isn't it a bit ironic that the Apple haters are going to end up with a machine most likely powered by an Apple (PA Semi) chip?
Seriously, Apple lied about "military spec" G5 chips and didn't even flinch when it turned out that core2duos ran rings around them even when running the Rosetta PPC emulation layer...
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Will there every be another computer like the amiga?
Depends what you want? If you want an expensive proprietary platform that is straddled with legacy compatability issues, I hope not.
I much prefer today's computing world of inexpensive and plentiful hardware and a choice of powerful Os's (some of which are free) to that of the late 80's. My memory of the past when I had to save for months and months to get my first Amiga. Now you can have a powerful system for next to nothing if you know where to look.
Custom chips are very overrated, take current gen' consoles as an example; Questionable performance lead for the first 3 months of their lives then quickly surpassed by "off the shelf" components. Later in it's life, the Amiga was "stuck" with it's custom architecture while inexpensive mass-marketed open-platform technology left it in the dust.
No-one "bangs the metal" anymore, it's too complex. When Sony developed the PS3's cell architecture they were thinking about the "potential" of low level coding, but all that got them is massively longer software development times for marginal performance improvements. Ultra optimising code is like tail chasing in the modern computing age, when the same performance gains got from months of code optimisation can be delivered on newer hardware sooner for less money and effort.
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Will, there ever be another computer like the Amiga?
I translate this to, will there ever be another computer that is so technologically superior and jaw-dropping at its time of release that it will maintain a legion(figuratively speaking) of fans 25 years later?
I think not. And if there is, it still isn't an Amiga, which is why we're on this forum.
What I would like to emphasise, perhaps at the risk of going off topic, is that it doesn't matter to me if a new Amiga isn't as technologically superior and jaw-dropping as the original.
We are living in an era of good enough computing. To me at least, everything I could think of doing is possible using, what many would call, mediocre hardware.
I have 5 computers around the house and I am still using PC hardware from 10 years ago that is still up to the task.
My two unexpanded P4 1gig PCs (circa 2000) are now used for web surfing, DVD burning, playing video on both my living room LCD TV and my theatre room projector, as well as hosting content over my wireless network. Probably not 1080p capable but I don't care.
I daily use my 1 year old netbook(1gig RAM) routinely to develop web apps, running 2 instances of VS2008, SQLServer2008, Firefox, IE and Lunascape(for webkit rendering) simultaneously. I wouldn't do that if the performance sucked.
My relatively recent PC desktop tower does the least demanding task of the lot by connecting to my my two 21 inch monitors and looking powerful. I pretty much use it to remote desktop to my other machines anyway. My wife is totally happy surfing the web on her old Celeron laptop.
Even if the X1000 provides the computing performance of a 5 year old computer or even a netbook I probably wouldn't realistically notice, as for me at least, it would be good enough. Maybe even a SAM would be acceptable, but I won't comment on that.
Honestly, if an app or a web page takes 2 seconds rather than 1 second to come up I don't care. If some CD or DVD takes twice as long to rip I probably don't care because I'll probably have that going on in the background anyway. But maybe I am the odd one out. I would say netbooks sales kinda back this proposition, and I don't think all netbook buyers are morons that don't know what they are purchasing. I'm happy with mine, and I would regard myself as a power user.
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What i miss most is the feel of a responsive GUI, and the fact that I could dig into the OS file structure and have a fairly good idea of what did what.
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Maybe on speed, but FP and clock for clock made up for it
No, it really doesn't. Try converting a DVD to DiVX. Get back to me tomorrow.
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It's laughable to hear people still living in the SJ reality distortion field! I'm a big fan of what Steve Jobs has done, but have PPC Macs and intel Macs... And regular PCs, and at no point did the PPC ever run faster than an equivilent priced x86... And certianly not a power efficient... The ISA is relatively unimportant, what matters is the implemention... And unless you have the sort of money intel, AMD or ARM has you will not out compete them.
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The day shops begin to ditch physical format for the games, i will begin to not buy them. I like to have the box and manual. Would anyone pay 60 eur for a game that only exists in virtual form?. I of course not.
Well, while there won't be an Amiga again... there is something else starting to take hold. Yes, Linux has not won the desktop - but the desktop is slowing becoming less of a factor. Most people I know now put more money into their Cell Phone/PDA - like iPhone or other Smartphones - than they do their pc. I am still using the same PC I built 3 years ago - but I just got an iPhone and over the next 2 years will put more money into it than I have spent on PC hardware over the last 3 years.
The next generation of users will not care about powerful boxes at home - it will be mobile with digital distribution. If you own stock in Gamestop - sell it now - the day of buying anything in a store that is digital content is coming to an end very soon. Who buys CDs, DVDs, etc? People who want to waste money. Music is cheaper on iTunes. Netflix makes movies way cheaper to rent/stream and most TV content can be found legally free to view on the net (So who even needs cable TV?)
Microsoft has just released a new Xbox Elite with 250GB drive- why? Because they realize there is more profit to be made with digital distribution. Download Content (DLC) is where the real profit is for Microsoft and game developers. It cuts out the cost of physical media creation/distribution, it cuts out dealing with companies like Wal-mart... and it kills the hated (and non royalty paying) used game market. I remember an article by the people who made Left 4 Dead - there where upset that there where over 2x the number of unique Xbox Live accounts played their game than bought it new - used sells was huge for this game and it hurt there market potential cause people like me always wait for a used copy.
If I can get it cheaper used, I always do, but under Digital distribution that is not even an option so I will have to buy it new or skip it - and most games won't skip sequels to their favorite titles. Plus, its harder to pirate cause they have to hack the distribution source - not just the install program.
If there is to be another Amiga - it will be a media intense, gaming, mobile device that has great connectivity to web based applications. Microsoft has been reporting working on a web-based office - they see the writing on the wall - so they can sell service - not media/install/support headaches.
The war for the desktop is moot since the real money will be in other places. Don't believe me, get an iPhone and see how much you really need your desktop. You could argue the iPhone is the spirit of the Amiga. It went against conventional wisdom and showed much larger phone makers like Nokia and Motorola that there was more to a phone than talking and text.
Amiga showed me there was more to computing than a command line and poorly written dos programs. If you want to see another Amiga - get the guys trying to make a desktop OS - like AROS - make an OS for a smartphone. Then the Amiga could be truly reborn.
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iPhone*games*only*come*in*download*form,*they*only*cost*£5...*I've*bought*4*in*the*last*month...*Before*that,*I*used*to*buy*about*2*games*a*year...***
The software houses have learned that passing the savings of the download (and virtually unpiratable) formats on to the consumer results in more sales! Win :)*****
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It's laughable to hear people still living in the SJ reality distortion field! I'm a big fan of what Steve Jobs has done, but have PPC Macs and intel Macs... And regular PCs, and at no point did the PPC ever run faster than an equivilent priced x86... And certianly not a power efficient... The ISA is relatively unimportant, what matters is the implemention... And unless you have the sort of money intel, AMD or ARM has you will not out compete them.
You're on drugs mate.
Look at the Pentium 4 era. Tell me, truly and honestly, that it wasn't a slow peice of shit whatever the clock speed. All the other cpu designs, like ppc, sparc, had only just reached 900mhz when intel were flouting 1.7Ghz. Great guys, you got a huge pipeline. Your processor is still clock for clock slower than the chip it replaced.
Look it up. Compare, speed wise, a pentium III 1ghz with a P4 1ghz. The P4 gets it's ass handed to it. It wasn't just the G4 that beat it, it was every other design out there. And power efficient? I'd say a 3watt proccessor is pretty power efficent. I've never seen someone have to bolt a big ass peice of metal with a fan to a G4. You know what? How intel CPUs seemed to reach 2.5-3.5Ghz in 2003 and roughly stay there ever since? That's because they were designed for pure megahertz ratings over actual performance. It was marketing.
The G5 sucked though. Was that one IBMs or Motorola's fuckup?
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The g5 is a good CPU, but it should've been skipped and Apple concentrate on clocking the G4s higher, plus if they used a 32-bit address space rather than 31-bits, then a max of 4 GB could've been achieved and the G4 would've been nice. The G5 remember is a POWER4 that was stripped down (Big mistake). If Apple had put its faith in PA Semi and money, we could've had a PA-6T Powermac and Powerbook instead of a CD Macbook and Xeon Mac Pro. Look, even the Powermac and Powerbook names trump the Macbook and mac pro names. SJ needs to bring 'em back
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You're on drugs mate.
Not today.
Look at the Pentium 4 era. Tell me, truly and honestly, that it wasn't a slow peice of shit whatever the clock speed. All the other cpu designs, like ppc, sparc, had only just reached 900mhz when intel were flouting 1.7Ghz. Great guys, you got a huge pipeline. Your processor is still clock for clock slower than the chip it replaced.
Not sure where I mentioned the Pentium4... that was a piece of junk... I used the AthlonXP and Athlon64 chips during the P4 era... my argument still stands.
Look it up. Compare, speed wise, a pentium III 1ghz with a P4 1ghz. The P4 gets it's ass handed to it. It wasn't just the G4 that beat it, it was every other design out there. And power efficient? I'd say a 3watt proccessor is pretty power efficent. I've never seen someone have to bolt a big ass peice of metal with a fan to a G4. You know what? How intel CPUs seemed to reach 2.5-3.5Ghz in 2003 and roughly stay there ever since? That's because they were designed for pure megahertz ratings over actual performance. It was marketing.
I bought a 1.5Ghz G4 Powerbook to run Logic Pro 7, I also had Logic Pro Platinum on my 2Ghz Athlon64... The Powerbook could only run half the number of effects/pluggins/tracks as the Athlon machine... it also cost twice as much.
The G4 was a slow old processor in 2005...
The G5 sucked though. Was that one IBMs or Motorola's fuckup?
Sure did.
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I bought a 1.5Ghz G4 Powerbook to run Logic Pro 7, I also had Logic Pro Platinum on my 2Ghz Athlon64... The Powerbook could only run half the number of effects/pluggins/tracks as the Athlon machine... it also cost twice as much.
The G4 was a slow old processor in 2005...
Yes, and that's why they replaced it the next year. Saying they were "slow and old" at the very very end of their product lifecycle is incredibly daft.
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Nothing wrong with being slow and old at the end of the lifecycle. I like to think of the G4s as pensioners.
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Nothing wrong with being slow and old at the end of the lifecycle. I like to think of the G4s as pensioners.
:-).
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If you look at what the Amiga was, idealistically speaking, at the time of the A1000's launch compared to IBM XT or AT PCs and apply that situation today you would need to produce a machine that was 5x more powerful but for the same price via clever custom hardware.
This is doubtful, although there is room for improvement because if you built a PC with the same raw CPU power as an Xbox 360 and identical graphics chip from ATI your PC's games would look nothing like as good as the DX10 games of a 360 but that's because it is running a bloated OS on a diverse open platform and the 360is not. You're not going to create a superior GPU in your garage compared to ATI/Nvidia and certainly not for less too so 'custom chips' as seen in the mid 80s are a difficult request as a technological price/performance solution.
Some of it IS down to OS and the fact you can't optimise PC games (running on win or linux) to the same level as a fixed hardware platform as a console like the 360, some down to just how sophisticated current hardware is.
So not really is the answer although if you wrote OS4 for the PS3 it would give high end PCs running any OS a good run for their money I suspect.
Early consoles at the time of the Amiga were quite sophisticated though too, Sega Genesis and NEC Turbo Grafix/PC Engine were quite adept at arcade ports, and usually superior to the Amiga port.
Look at it this way...you could produce a superior successor to a 60s Dodge Charger for less quite easily...but could you improve on a 2000s BMW M3 for less? Nope. The bar has been raised to high and the problem with PCs is not the hardware, simply the nature of the beast of an open diverse platform and the sorry state of a 'modern' OS written in some crap high level language taking up far too much RAM to replace the simple beauty of when Amiga Wb 1.2/1.3 was around in the Days of DOS/Windows or OS/2 etc.
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So not really is the answer although if you wrote OS4 for the PS3 it would give high end PCs running any OS a good run for their money I suspect
Nope. As I have written many many times now, my 1.33Gz G4 iBook (yes, the very same G4 that is described as old pensioner in this thread) runs in circles around the PS3, both running the same OS (linux) and doing the same tasks.
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Well, i think yes. I've just bought a PS3 and i have very similar feeling what i felt when i got my A500 back in 1990. Revolutionary HW, custom chips, and forward looking games. I started my Amiga history with playing games (as weel as many of us - i think) and later i've discovered the many other possibilities the A500 offered. The PS3 still have a lot of potential to unlock (ie. it can be used as a very powerful computing unit in supercomputer cluster, and soon it will be usable to perform CPU intensve calculations for ie. finite element simulation software.
So i became fan of PS3 however i still like to use my A500, CD32, A3k and the A4k classics.
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The Amiga obviously wasn't about ground breaking CPU power anyway.
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The Amiga obviously wasn't about ground breaking CPU power anyway.
I recently purchased a Wii and took note that everything it is supposed to be groundbreaking in was done by 1986 on the Amiga. ASquared did the conceptual equivalent as the Wii remotes and the original Amiga guys did the conceptual equivalent of the Wii Fit board (it was where the Guru Meditation came from).
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Nope. As I have written many many times now, my 1.33Gz G4 iBook (yes, the very same G4 that is described as old pensioner in this thread) runs in circles around the PS3, both running the same OS (linux) and doing the same tasks.
Pfft that machine would not be able to even display 1% of the visual output that the PS3 produces when playing Killzone 2 sorry.
As an OS engine the CELL is not ideal but as a package the PS3 is seriously powerful, just to display one gorgeous frame requires 8 overlaid renders to be combined in realtime @ 60FPS.
A new 'Amiga' would have to cost maybe $100-200 more than a PS3 but be able to do everything a medium range PC does and play games as shiny as Killzone 2 :)
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The Amiga obviously wasn't about ground breaking CPU power anyway.
In some ways it was, although the Mac and ST had faster CPUs it was still much better than an NEC V30 or 8086 in the PC XT. But yes it was a complete package, a colour multi-tasking GUI'd OS with some very nice custom hardware for the traditional 2D games all the same. For creative people it was a dream come true. So the CPU alone was not the whole story, without the blitter and stereo DACs and a multitasking OS it wouldn't have been quite the machine it could have. Digi-view was the first non gaming expense I ever made (Dpaint was free!) and that says a lot....never bought anything like that for my 8bit computers and the Mac/ST/PC had nothing quite as sexy as Digi-view in my book so kerching *sold* :)
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G4 is far from slow for me, I use it for photo manipulation and general use. I rarely need that much CPU power and it runs lightyears faster than any PC I ever had. The Athlon series is a very good chip, but I still am more for PPC, as I have yet to see a big-endian X86/x64 cpu?
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The G4 line of products from Apple are overall, very well built. Good quality hardware that's sure to survive at least another 10 years. I have one G3 power mac that was built in '98 and it's been running my SVN repos at home for the past 4 years.
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I was wondering, with the multitude of people turning the ps3 into a full computer and many other things going on in the world of technology, gaming and entertainment...
Will there ever be a computer like the amiga again?
Yes, there is. It's the eeePC. Or also the Apire One. Netbooks in general.
The netbook is the nearest thing to an Amiga 500 (with the ION ones being the new A1200s) in modern computing. It's little, it's cheap, it's uderpowered (if compared to mainstream desktop PCs), but it can fullfit all the current needs of lightness, transport, communications over the air and the Internet, as like as the A500 did longa ago for games and home computing. And, since I run Icaros Desktop on my Aspire One, it's even more similar to my old Amiga.
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Pfft that machine would not be able to even display 1% of the visual output that the PS3 produces when playing Killzone 2 sorry.
And what does that have to do with running OS4 on a PS3? Nothing.
As an OS engine the CELL is not ideal but as a package the PS3 is seriously powerful, just to display one gorgeous frame requires 8 overlaid renders to be combined in realtime @ 60FPS.
Well, that's not just due to the CPU, and as you know, Sony does not allow anyone else to fully play with the rest of the hardware. Making good use of the SPUs is not easily done either.
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Yeah, it sucks they lock the GPU. Maybe a hack will arise to correct this.
As for my G4 iBook, my powermac runs circles around it, but my xbox 1, at several times weaker than a Cell, could render more graphics in Linux because the GPU can be used.
@Paolone
No, sorry it isn't anything like it. I've used AROS and since my first try i have stayed FAR away, its so unpolished. Also, any X86 HW available is nothing close to an Amiga, nowadays, taht belongs to the SAM and G4 macs, since MOS has better compatibility than OS4 or AROS.
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Netbooks are cr@p, it's the iPad and all the iPad clones that it will inspire that are the real Amiga 500s..
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Netbooks are cr@p, it's the iPad and all the iPad clones that it will inspire that are the real Amiga 500s..
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
Thanx for that...
desiv
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I missed out on the Amiga days, as I was growing up on the ignorant PC platform. The A-EON will be great (if it can sell) and it isn't a 74XX (G4) Chip as thats not in the POWERISA 2.04. What is are: Titan, PWRficient, 970(G5)
I think the PWRficient will be the one to be in the A-EON as it is rarely seen in the wild (Since PA Semi was snapped up).
As for the OP's question, no, the Amiga cannot exist as it did in the 80's, because of Micro$haft and Steve Jobs turning into a Pr!ck for going intel (The PA-6T outperformed the Core Duo) but I forgive him, but I won't buy a Macbook until he revives the names: PowerMac, Powerbook, iBook. Because Mac Pro, MAcbook (Pro) suck compared to it.
During Core Duo era, PA-6T wasn't available. Intel Core Duo was quickly replaced by Intel Core 2.
I also love my G4 mac because I delight in OSX 5 working so well while SpamDows CEMENT (Win CE, ME, NT) run unusably in VPC and Q. And at least Apple's minimum specs for each OS X make sure the machine can run OS X decently.
As for Dammy, the PPC platform has just as much potential as the day the 601 was unveiled, but the higher cost and x86 BS being spread ruined its chances,
Apparently, IBM PowerPC 970 was not price competitive against AMD Athlon 64.
the new i7 still can't do what a 603 can (Run in Big Endian, produce good Power-to-watt ratios)
.)
WTF is this? LOL at your "Power-to-watt" ratios.
If the PS3 was turned into a home computer with a custom Linux running windows under an emu layer, people wouldn't know its PPC and stuff. Also, tell me when an x86 can run an x64 application, because PPCs can run 64bits if needed (at a slight drop in performance.)
X64 = X86-64 i.e. part of X86 family. Pray and tell if your G4 can run 64bit OS and Apps.
Care for rematch?
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There will never be another Amiga.
There will never be another C64, or ZX Spectrum, ZX81 or ZX80.
The genesys of classic affordable home computing was over once 8 bit was swamped by the 16 and 32 bit tsunami. The Amiga rode the crest of the breaking wave.
Flotsum and Jetsum is all that's left now. How depressing.
The king is dead, long live the king!
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Netbooks are cr@p, it's the iPad and all the iPad clones that it will inspire that are the real Amiga 500s..
Netbooks are also tablet PCs e.g. ASUS EeePC T91.
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And what does that have to do with running OS4 on a PS3? Nothing.
Well, that's not just due to the CPU, and as you know, Sony does not allow anyone else to fully play with the rest of the hardware. Making good use of the SPUs is not easily done either.
Your G3 is just a box that runs applications, if you just want a general purpose machine even a P3 1.2ghz is enough. The point was the Amiga 1000 was light years ahead of the competition in every way including fast moving arcade quality graphics. Ditto for PS3/360 and therefore a new 'Amiga' would have to be a computer that for $100 more could replicate those quality graphics AND be superior at general computing tasks like rendering 3D graphics or transcoding Blurays to MKV etc etc.
To get similar graphics in a PC (or Mac) requires a $200 graphics card alone...now you see the point about your G3 being irrelevant to the discussion?
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Netbooks are also tablet PCs e.g. ASUS EeePC T91.
Netbooks are technically crap yes, the Intel Atom is nothing more than a mobile P3 core with minor improvements, iPad is even worse...just a yuppie toy without a full blown OS and tied to the stupid apps store *kerching*
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@Hammer
That was my blunder, okay. I misunderstood the sentence: "Note that a 64-bit PowerPC application which does not need 64-bit math will run slightly slower than if it were compiled in 32-bit mode. This is because 64-bit pointers and longs consume twice as much memory as their 32-bit counterparts, so the CPU cache will be able to hold less data and memory accesses will be more frequent"
From wikipedia.org
My fault there, but are any of the x64 CPUs fully compatible with their 32-bit counterparts? No, try running any of the 486 apps on an i7 with 7 64-bit. Get back to me if you get it to run?
I can see this is becoming a debate about whether x86 or PPC is the way to go.
@Proponents of x86
It will never happen, I've already made up my mind and I will not go back to intel for a while, probably never. If x86 leads the Amiga, you can expect me and several others to leave, because it will no longer be an Amiga.
The closest relative of the Amigas are the PPC macs, the SAM 440 and the upcoming A-EON.
Good Day!
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@Dreamcast
I run MacOS 9 on an emulator. Amiga on an Emulator and Windows 95 on virtual PC. All on a Windows XP 2.8Ghz Athlon X2 System. If the emulator is good it doesn't matter what 'engine' is under the hood. If PowerPCs were dirt cheap I would use that.
Once you get a taste of some serious horsepower and as long as bloatware doesn't swallow half of it, you won't look back.
You still need a two pronged attack from hardware and software... if one is lacking people will get fed up.
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Yep, Microsoft doublespeak, they've been delaying their 64 bit implementation for so long they decided to rename the chip. Any "x64" is still an X86.
What I'm interested in is Intel's new i7, with six cores of processing goodness. OS X and Linux must fly on these machines.
The Power architecture doesn't have the money behind it that intel and AMD have. Yeah there's IBM but how many servers can you sell to dump money into a processor. I suspect that IBM will move to intel in the next year or two. They may even re-enter the PC market when their no competition agreement ends with Lenovo...
During Core Duo era, PA-6T wasn't available. X64 = X86-64 i.e. part of X86 family. Pray and tell if your G4 can run 64bit OS and Apps.
Care for rematch?
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Your G3 is just a box that runs applications, if you just want a general purpose machine even a P3 1.2ghz is enough. The point was the Amiga 1000 was light years ahead of the competition in every way including fast moving arcade quality graphics. Ditto for PS3/360 and therefore a new 'Amiga' would have to be a computer that for $100 more could replicate those quality graphics AND be superior at general computing tasks like rendering 3D graphics or transcoding Blurays to MKV etc etc.
To get similar graphics in a PC (or Mac) requires a $200 graphics card alone...now you see the point about your G3 being irrelevant to the discussion?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
The only G3 I have is the Pegasos1.
Also it is rather annoying that people keep changing the "the point" all the time.
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My fault there, but are any of the x64 CPUs fully compatible with their 32-bit counterparts? No, try running any of the 486 apps on an i7 with 7 64-bit. Get back to me if you get it to run?
Of course 486 software runs on the new x64 (or x86-64 depending which name you prefer)... Hell, all modern x86 chips support long mode (the 64bit mode we are talking about)... Scary, bu they will still even run software written for the 8088, as used in the original IBM PC!!!
Please do some research BEFORE you make ignorant posts about technical issues...
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To get similar graphics in a PC (or Mac) requires a $200 graphics card alone...now you see the point about your G3 being irrelevant to the discussion?
I didnt read the entire thread, so I appologize if Ive missed something here, but even an old $80 gf9600gt runs rings around both ps3 and xb360 in terms of graphics power. The price of pc gear these days makes it hard for even consoles to be price competitive in terms of performance. I enjoy my consoles on occasion, but in terms of raw power and graphics quality theyre completely and utterly destroyed by even mid spec pc gear (although it's a shame in some ways that games are written with the lowest common denominator (consoles) in mind as pc gamers often get little more than higher resolution/higher image quality versions of console games (little bit st-itis here)).
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...it's a shame in some ways that games are written with the lowest common denominator (consoles) in mind as pc gamers often get little more than higher resolution/higher image quality versions of console games (little bit st-itis here)).
Hmm... not unlike what happened with the Amiga and all those crappy ST ports. Sucks to hear that is still going on, but doesn't surprise me in the least. It's human nature to both a) not live up to your potential and b) lazily port software from weaker systems. :lol:
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Okay, try running Blood on an i7 with 7 64-bit? Natively now, no vdmsound or dosbox with everything working? Good luck.
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@dreamcast270mhz
What's your point here?
You can't run 32bit games natively on 64bit OS on PowerPC either "just like that", if that's what you think.
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... Or you could just install a Flash drive instead of a Hard drive.
I think you miss the point. The Amiga had the best of both worlds. Like computer and Video games system with much of the OS in rom.
i.e. Someone could distribute a demo CD/Flash drive image and everyone could boot from it, but they do not need to have the OS on CD for it to run. (it being illegal to distribute the OS) If the OS is in ROM then we can do stuff like this.
Nintendo Wii for example. I can put a DVD in a boot. No need to have the entire Systems OS on the disk.
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Okay, try running Blood on an i7 with 7 64-bit? Natively now, no vdmsound or dosbox with everything working? Good luck.
What's your point ?
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ANYWAY Back on topic..
Will there every be another computer like the amiga?
Not exactly. I mean there IS a rabid following for each piece of the current Amiga pie, but others outside of the community aren't very interested in anything we have to offer yet. Unfortunately with all of the petty in-fighting the community is unstable and will never grow.
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Okay, try running Blood on an i7 with 7 64-bit? Natively now, no vdmsound or dosbox with everything working? Good luck.
I'm not sure what "Blood" is, I assume a game... But I imagine the only problem would be getting graphics and sound drivers... The code would run just fine otherwise, I found a full set of Win3.11 install floppies here at work last year and was able to install it on my Athlon64... I have even run Visicalc on my Athlon64 under a native install of Dos 5.2... The CPU is the most compaible part of the system!
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Not my point at all, just pointing out that some older applications look at a new CPU, and freak out or don't run at all. maybe I was a little harsh with that last post, but If I use my friends iMac G5, I can run an OS 8 app in classic without having to about it freaking out or crashing, you are right in saying the x86 CPU is a very good and successful architecture, I just don't and won't use it because I hate using monopoly HW that is so low quality compared with my PPC machines.
Anyways, lets just drop it, isn't worth me or anyone else getting worked up over. I agree to disagree with the rest of you intel/AMD fans.
And as I said, in terms of architecture and OS, MorphOS and the PPC macs and Pegs are the closest relatives to the Amiga. Of course there will be innovations that fit their bill, but if PPC ever dies, it will mean the end of the Amiga's life in terms of HW. And as long as the X1000 is a good HW piece, I will buy it, run OS4 and MOS if it gets ported, as well as linux with Mac-On-Linux if I can
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but If I use my friends iMac G5, I can run an OS 8 app in classic without having to about it freaking out or crashing
..but you can't run an OS 10.6+ only app on it!
That's going to be more of an issue soon. The G4s and G5s are selling for peanuts around here because people are abandoning ship to stay current.
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Staying current... hah. to be honest i'd be happy with "can watch youtube".
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Os 8??
Pfffffffffffffffft!!!!!!
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A10 attack! is a good classic flight sim... And Tone, I don't care about that, if I DID care, I'd have gotten an intel mac, but no, I didn't, I got 2 G4 laptops and a G4 MDD. I really don't care for all that MW2 crap and I have a 360 and Wii for all that.
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Ha, I've got more G4 Macs than you, and that's after selling off all the laptops.
Hard to say no to stuff people are giving away, unfortunately they'll probably end up in the garbage when the hard drives fail and I don't feel like replacing them.
They're OK for light browsing for now, but I always move to a nice dual core machine when it's time for anything CPU intensive.
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CPU Intensive like what? And sell them. G4s make decent computers still. Hell, my stereo system in my bedroom is a G3, and handles itself just fine with word processing, photoshop, even a bit of 3D in sketchup from time to time. The trick is to use software from roughly the year a computer is made, excepting web browsers.
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Like, compressing massive amounts of data or video and running virtual servers, or curing cancer. It'll take forever to cure cancer if people keep using G4s.
..and if people are having a hard time giving them away working for $100 or less around here, I can't imagine trying to sell one with no hard drive.
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Well, while there won't be an Amiga again... there is something else starting to take hold. Yes, Linux has not won the desktop - but the desktop is slowing becoming less of a factor. Most people I know now put more money into their Cell Phone/PDA - like iPhone or other Smartphones - than they do their pc. I am still using the same PC I built 3 years ago - but I just got an iPhone and over the next 2 years will put more money into it than I have spent on PC hardware over the last 3 years.
The next generation of users will not care about powerful boxes at home - it will be mobile with digital distribution. If you own stock in Gamestop - sell it now - the day of buying anything in a store that is digital content is coming to an end very soon. Who buys CDs, DVDs, etc? People who want to waste money. Music is cheaper on iTunes. Netflix makes movies way cheaper to rent/stream and most TV content can be found legally free to view on the net (So who even needs cable TV?)
Microsoft has just released a new Xbox Elite with 250GB drive- why? Because they realize there is more profit to be made with digital distribution. Download Content (DLC) is where the real profit is for Microsoft and game developers. It cuts out the cost of physical media creation/distribution, it cuts out dealing with companies like Wal-mart... and it kills the hated (and non royalty paying) used game market. I remember an article by the people who made Left 4 Dead - there where upset that there where over 2x the number of unique Xbox Live accounts played their game than bought it new - used sells was huge for this game and it hurt there market potential cause people like me always wait for a used copy.
If I can get it cheaper used, I always do, but under Digital distribution that is not even an option so I will have to buy it new or skip it - and most games won't skip sequels to their favorite titles. Plus, its harder to pirate cause they have to hack the distribution source - not just the install program.
If there is to be another Amiga - it will be a media intense, gaming, mobile device that has great connectivity to web based applications. Microsoft has been reporting working on a web-based office - they see the writing on the wall - so they can sell service - not media/install/support headaches.
The war for the desktop is moot since the real money will be in other places. Don't believe me, get an iPhone and see how much you really need your desktop. You could argue the iPhone is the spirit of the Amiga. It went against conventional wisdom and showed much larger phone makers like Nokia and Motorola that there was more to a phone than talking and text.
Amiga showed me there was more to computing than a command line and poorly written dos programs. If you want to see another Amiga - get the guys trying to make a desktop OS - like AROS - make an OS for a smartphone. Then the Amiga could be truly reborn.
The BEST you can get today for GAMING is the
xbox360 and for everything else you have iphone
and htc (android) <---- that's the real Amiga spirit!
I m playing with my kids xbox games and using my
android every day more andmore - i can say "more
than my extra mega giga build pc that's lately only
good for HD movies" at home and at business, in the
future i see only smartphones, maybe they will soon
be using ext. mouse, keyboard and lcd to!
There will NEVER EVER be an new Amiga or c64 !!!
Sad but that's reality!
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Re: iPhone and spirit of Amiga
This is an example of how people can look at the same thing and see something completely different. I could pick apart the hardware and the software, but I won't.
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Like, compressing massive amounts of data or video and running virtual servers, or curing cancer. It'll take forever to cure cancer if people keep using G4s.
That's great, really. Thing is, most people don't do that.
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True, most people are n00bs and don't need much in terms of power.
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No, sorry it isn't anything like it. I've used AROS and since my first try i have stayed FAR away, its so unpolished. Also, any X86 HW available is nothing close to an Amiga, nowadays, taht belongs to the SAM and G4 macs, since MOS has better compatibility than OS4 or AROS.
Sorry, but I can't agree on this. There's nothing but the processor to distinguish a SAM or a Mac motherboard from a plain PC one, and from the hardware point of view you will find the same BUS, ports and connectors on any modern machine, being it x86 or PPC based.
We can argue the X1000 will have a programmable logic on board. A-Eon is struggling to convince us that this is a real heritage of the Amiga custom chips. You don't need a degree in Hardware Specialist to understand that's not the case.
Let's be more philosophic: Amiga was great thanks to its awesome multimedia performances opposed to a cheap price. There's absolutely nothing of this in SAM or X1000s. And any comparison between used Macs and new hardware is quite unfair. A long ago, playing at the edge of bitmap graphics, color animation and sound were attractive keypoints, but today needs are changed. Now people needs communications, weareability, lightness and autonomy. Computers (and not smartphones, or MIDs) that satisfy those needs at cheap prices are netbooks, and that's why IMHO my Aspire One is the heir of my old Amiga 1200. It's cheap and fullfits my needs.
About AROS, in the end, I can only invite you to try the latest releases, since they are much more polished than, for instance, one or two years ago.
And, not for you but for the one immediately after: netbooks hardware may be crap, but they give you much more than you pay for. I don't know if you can tell the same thing about any AmigaOS-compatible PPC platform. And you should really give a try to AROS on singlecore Atoms to believe how good they can be with a light operating system.
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singlecore Atoms
Single core, but with hyperthreading! Pretty nice for low power processors.
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About AROS, in the end, I can only invite you to try the latest releases, since they are much more polished than, for instance, one or two years ago.
The problem with aros is that it's been made completely randomly.
"So we still haven't got 3.1 source compatability fully worked out? who cares! we got someone with utterly no taste to make a skin for it!"
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The problem with aros is that it's been made completely randomly: "So we still haven't got 3.1 source compatability fully worked out? who cares! we got someone with utterly no taste to make a skin for it!"
Sometimes I can't get a clue about people's criticism. You said AROS being made "randomly" but, in the end, what does this mean from a end-user perspective? If it works, it works, no matter how this result has been accomplished. If it doesn't work, there's the bug tracker and, believe it or not, when something get posted on the bug tracker, generally will also be fixed. AmigaOS 3.1 source compatibility is almost done and, if you spot bugs, you should file them to the bug tracker, instead of spreading fud here.
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My point is, they seem to have worked more on eye candy than the actual goal of the project. Why did they go apeshit making an ugly theme BEFORE finishing the 3.1 apis? That's stupid.
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My point is, they seem to have worked more on eye candy than the actual goal of the project. Why did they go apeshit making an ugly theme BEFORE finishing the 3.1 apis? That's stupid.
You need to get on the aros developer mailing list, then you'd have a clearer picture of what's going on development wise.
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Not my point at all, just pointing out that some older applications look at a new CPU, and freak out or don't run at all.
With the possible exception of programs hard coded to a given CPU at a given speed that would "freak out" if they found anything else (which would also often break with faster variants of the same chip btw), most programs worked within the APIs supported by the OS. As such, so long as the APIs and such are still present, a program itself generally won't give a damn. See Bloodlines visicalc example for more.
maybe I was a little harsh with that last post, but If I use my friends iMac G5, I can run an OS 8 app in classic without having to about it freaking out or crashing,
You are aware that classic app support is supplied via emulation similar to that which you seem to be complaining about on x86, right?
you are right in saying the x86 CPU is a very good and successful architecture, I just don't and won't use it because I hate using monopoly HW that is so low quality compared with my PPC machines.
That of course is your choice and right. The rest of the world simply wants to get the job done.
And as I said, in terms of architecture and OS, MorphOS and the PPC macs and Pegs are the closest relatives to the Amiga.
Err, no, they're really not. The Peg, A1 and all post nubus PowerMacs are essentially PCs with a customised northbridge and different cpu running the show. Architecturally they are PCs. They have little or nothing in common with the OCS/ECS/AGA architectures.
Of course there will be innovations that fit their bill, but if PPC ever dies, it will mean the end of the Amiga's life in terms of HW.
Actually it could be argued legitimately that PPC was the cause of the death of Amiga hardware.
And as long as the X1000 is a good HW piece, I will buy it, run OS4 and MOS if it gets ported, as well as linux with Mac-On-Linux if I can
Good luck with that.
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That's great, really. Thing is, most people don't do that.
With things like youtube and similar becoming ever more popular, having the grunt to encode video is a lot more common. Now that Youtube amongst others are offering high def video, the need is greater still.
Sure, they don't need that maybe 90% of the time, but when they do, they want it done in a reasonable time frame. With the introduction of high def, the G5 and especially the G4 based macs are really starting to show their shortcomings.
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My point is, they seem to have worked more on eye candy than the actual goal of the project. Why did they go apeshit making an ugly theme BEFORE finishing the 3.1 apis? That's stupid.
No, that`s freedom. AROS is a open source community effort where different people contribute as far as their competences and fields allow. Development of different parts of the system proceeds in parallel, so it`s normal some areas will be ready before, and some others after. Do you think creating a theme is simplier or more difficult than getting OS3.1 source compatibility, without even seeing a line of original OS3.1 source code? And do you think artists should wait for coders to end their work, to start their own? Why? Just because you are accustomed to priority lists? That`s stupid, my friend.
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No, you're wrong, all post-nubus ppc macs are not like Pcs at all. A PC has SSE software, but a g4 has an actual altivec FPU, A PC runs little endian, PPC runs big-endian AND little endian. A mac has OF, Pcs have BIOS. The differences go on.
Truth be told, a mac nowadays is a custom PC with EFI on a cheap FOXCONN Mobo.
And to date, the most populous Big-Endian archittecture is PPC, the 68k is VERY similar to a PPC. And as far as OCS/ECS/AGA goes, their relatives are the GPU, SPU and North/South Bridge chips in Macs and PCs, i wasn't focusibng on them.
@Paolone
AROS has promise, if you can get WARPOS/PUP support working I'd DL it for PPC, you won't rely on UAE to do it, will you? I like the three Amigoids Oses out there, tehy all have promise.
I have to say that PPC macs have more lifetime than any PC to a consumer. when SJ switched them to Intel, that went teh way of horse and buggy. I am neighbors with a couple who use a PowerMac G3 w/ one of those 450mhz ZIF G4s, it runs Tiger like new, a Core Duo Macbook at stock spec struggles with SL. My iBook g4 runs circles around my brother's Phenom 3Gb laptop, at 768mb and 1.33 Ghz at that, because it runs Micro$haft 7.
I use my G4 for:
DVD encoding
E-mail and web browsing, youtube, facebook
Gaming, the newest game I use is DOOM 3
iTunes music and 720p video (my P4 HT couldn't do 480p without slowdown)
ALL else I do on internet
My point is, I don't mind waiting two hours for 720p dvd5 video to be encoded, because I can browse, play Ut2004 and do whatever while I wait, if I encoded on my HT, it locked up the RAM so much i couldn't play even Half Life. I don't need 1080p video, 3GB/s transfers or UT3, because I don't care to be in the rat race to keep up. I'm happy with what i have, thank you
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If that's your answer to every computer problem it's a wonder anyone keeps calling you. I can lock down a Windows machine in five minutes, spend five more minutes educating the user, and that's the end of it. That locked down machine will be just as usable to the customer as it was when I started, so no, it doesn't involve deleting their user account :P
I have to agree with this.
Windows 7 works a dream with an obscured named admin account with pwd & users set as 'standard'. I've no idea why they don't come like this out of the box but it's as near to 'sudo' as i've seen on a Microsoft platform.
'Run as' in XP is just too difficult for munters to get their heads around..... Pwd protected admin account & std users in 7 works well... makes them think twice before giving an app the go-ahead.
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Here's the latest kludge from Microsoft expert programmers:
http://lifehacker.com/5451159/solid+color-backgrounds-cause-30+second-login-delay-in-windows-7 (http://lifehacker.com/5451159/solid+color-backgrounds-cause-30+second-login-delay-in-windows-7)
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Lol that just goes to show that M$ has made another "Simple Jack" OS
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That's a feature, it's to scare n00bs like dreamcast off to Mac-land, "OMG it was s0 SLOW my G4 blew it away i was scared!, PCs stink!"
Whereas any reasonable person would change the number in the registry and be done with it. Apple never had any bugs!
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To be fair the Registry was probably the greatest mistake in the history of personal computing. Bloated, hidden and buggy, it should have joined Bob in a Redmond basement...
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With things like youtube and similar becoming ever more popular, having the grunt to encode video is a lot more common. Now that Youtube amongst others are offering high def video, the need is greater still.
Sure, they don't need that maybe 90% of the time, but when they do, they want it done in a reasonable time frame. With the introduction of high def, the G5 and especially the G4 based macs are really starting to show their shortcomings.
If youtube didn't use flash, there would be no problem. its hilarious playing a 720p video in quicktime full speed on a g3 400, then trying to watch it on youtube and have the entire machine hang. Actually encoding video doesn't really take too long on a G4 machine, it certainly doesn't slow the other running apps by any noticable amount.
That's a feature, it's to scare n00bs like dreamcast off to Mac-land, "OMG it was s0 SLOW my G4 blew it away i was scared!, PCs stink!"
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Seriously, it's just random words wedged into a vaguely insulting sentence. Are you sure you know what a computer is?
Whereas any reasonable person would change the number in the registry and be done with it. Apple never had any bugs!
Yes, it is reasonable that joe bloggs (i.e someone who doesn't care about computers in the slightest) has to learn the inner workings of the worlds most popular VMS clone, then start altering it to fix the developers severe fuck ups.:laughing:
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Yes, it is reasonable that joe bloggs (i.e someone who doesn't care about computers in the slightest) has to learn the inner workings of the worlds most popular VMS clone, then start altering it to fix the developers severe fuck ups.:laughing:
..or run/wait for the auto-update patch that was probably released 5 minutes after the bug was discovered...
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Which isn't what you wanted them to do. You wanted them to become an "l337 haxx0r" like you must think you are, then start pissing about in the registry.
And if people actually used windows update, it'd probably render the machine unusable from the constant reboots. I once made the mistake of installing a fresh copy of XP SP3, set auto update to bring down all the patches, install and reboot all by itself, and it took about 4 days before it finished, on a 10mb/s connection. yeah.
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Which isn't what you wanted them to do.
I don't want them to do anything, let them keep their 30 second wait for all I care. I was just commenting the issue was a single value (in seconds) in the registry that needed to be changed, which is as easy as typing "regedit" and typing in a new number in a box. Scary l33t stuff, that is.
..oh, and as for Windows updates... You can take a copy of Windows XP released in 2001 and update it to the most current service pack, patches, etc, for free. If you've got a copy of OS X from 2001, guess what, you have to buy a new version if you want something newer. I'll take downloading a couple hundred megs in patches over spending money anyday, not that Apple doesn't make you download large patches to get from 10.4 to 10.4.11, etc.
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@tone007
We all know you like windoze, agree to disagree with me and others in that case. I don't like Windows because:
I had to intermittently backup everything and reinstall the OS to make it usable again.
I had to deal with either no anti-virus (I caught conficker because of this) or enjoy AVgs nagging to update and restart
I got tired of not being able to encode video in any of the open source encoders and still play my online games
I was frustrated with WGA, "Sorry Billy, yes I pirated this version, now be a good boy and SMB and get the Fuck off my machine!"
I hated the games for windows having OS locks (can run on xp, but won't without a crack, ie. Halo 2) and no, Apple and devs make sure that even some new apps run in Panther.
The list goes on, but i didn't migrate to mac to have someone nagging me that windows is better like the mormons and jehovahs witnesses that come to my door daily. Maybe I should use a similar stategy: Paint a sign in my doctor's handwriting : I used "Satan rulez" for them but maybe "I kill silly Billies" or "Beware of Titan" will keep fanbois away.
Good luck convincing any average mac user like that :p
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A checklist! I love checklists.
I had to intermittently backup everything and reinstall the OS to make it usable again. n00b
I had to deal with either no anti-virus (I caught conficker because of this) or enjoy AVgs nagging to update and restart n00b
I got tired of not being able to encode video in any of the open source encoders and still play my online games who the heck knows what you did wrong there
I was frustrated with WGA, "Sorry Billy, yes I pirated this version, now be a good boy and SMB and get the Fuck off my machine!" pirate
I hated the games for windows having OS locks (can run on xp, but won't without a crack, ie. Halo 2) and no, Apple and devs make sure that even some new apps run in Panther. "some," ha.
i didn't migrate to mac to have someone nagging me that windows is better
Windows isn't better, nor is Mac. You have a preference, and I have a preference. Your preference is obvious, my preference isn't necessarily Microsoft though I chose their side on this one. Coming onto a forum with "haaha looks like M$ screwed up again," like a silly little Mac fanboi however, is asking for rebuttal, or at least a little name-calling. ..and I'm all out of chewing gum, or something.
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I don't want them to do anything, let them keep their 30 second wait for all I care. I was just commenting the issue was a single value (in seconds) in the registry that needed to be changed, which is as easy as typing "regedit" and typing in a new number in a box. Scary l33t stuff, that is.
Here is something you do not understand:
A very small amount of people know how computers work, beyond "press buttan, reccev porno".
A very small amount of people actually want to.
Only the above group of people would know how to do that.
..oh, and as for Windows updates... You can take a copy of Windows XP released in 2001 and update it to the most current service pack, patches, etc, for free. If you've got a copy of OS X from 2001, guess what, you have to buy a new version if you want something newer. I'll take downloading a couple hundred megs in patches over spending money anyday, not that Apple doesn't make you download large patches to get from 10.4 to 10.4.11, etc.
okay, you're a moron. Reading this literally gave me the opposite of an epiphany. I think I actually felt my brain kernel panic. It's weird, like there's a load of pressure inside your brain, and it gets yanked forward suddenly, your thought process stops totally, you become newborn child levels of stupid, barely sapient for a second. Then, you snap back to your normal level of intelligence, but you feel confused, and full of rage as your brain tries, and fails to proccess the fact that somebody actually thinks that way. It's probably the closest experience to having a stroke I've ever had, and if it weren't for the fact it lasted two seconds and was cause by reading something, I'd be on the way to hospital right now (or shaking on the floor). Congradulations, you just invented the text equivalent of the brown note.
The reason that you have to pay for new OSX operating system releases, is that they are new operating system releases. They are not free, because they aren't. just as windows vista is not a free upgrade for XP, panther is not a free upgrade for jaguar. It's exactly the same. apple doesn't make "service packs" because they are capable of actually improving the operating system in less than seven years.
I love the service pack model. "lets release lots of tiny minor insignifcant fixes constantly, but anything important can wait for a couple of year while we build it into a 2GB monstrosity of a patch that basically replaces the entire OS install and takes forever to download".
Everyone else: "lol no. We find a problem, we fix it as soon as."
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Here is something you do not understand:
A very small amount of people know how computers work, beyond "press buttan, reccev porno".
A very small amount of people actually want to.
I understand that perfectly, and rest assured, even those people will have the problem fixed.
The reason that you have to pay for new OSX operating system releases, is that they are new operating system releases.
Only because Steve Jobs needed some spending money. It's still OSX, they just picked the "pay for play" route. Want to use OSX for 10 years? You're going to buy it a few times and spend alot more than you'd pay for XP.
I love the service pack model. "lets release lots of tiny minor insignifcant fixes constantly, but anything important can wait for a couple of year while we build it into a 2GB monstrosity of a patch that basically replaces the entire OS install and takes forever to download".
Obviously you don't know what a service pack is. It's a rollup of those "tiny minor fixes," bundled into one for convenience, just like Apple does. Sure, they usually add something different to make it worth doing the rollup and rollout, but most of it is old work repackaged to save time.
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I understand that perfectly, and rest assured, even those people will have the problem fixed.
good. Now read the rest of the post.
Only because Steve Jobs needed some spending money. It's still OSX, they just picked the "pay for play" route. Want to use OSX for 10 years? You're going to buy it a few times and spend alot more than you'd pay for XP.
No. There's so many changes between each release, so many new apis, large sections of the OS re written or replaced, new features added. It's completely different to just adding more service packs to XP. I mean, there's nothing bar some security tools added by SP2/3 and absoltely nothing at all by SP1. The difference between 10.0 and 10.3, for example, is greater than the difference between win2k and win7. the entire graphical side of the OS + NS apis have been rewritten several times over as of 10.6. Hell, on the same hardware, OSX releases have gotten FASTER.
Let us compare "still OSX":
First version:
(http://images.appleinsider.com/leopard-preview-server-5.jpg) (http://images.appleinsider.com/leopard-preview-server-5.jpg)
Display postscript, OS9 UI, no hardware acceleration.
Latest version:
(http://crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/mac_osx_leopard.jpg)
Quartz, 3D accelerated desktop, transparency, multiple desktop, ported to a different cpu arch, new user interface, openCL (gpgpu), GCD, and many many more apis than those, etc.
Congratulations on being wrong, I guess.
Obviously you don't know what a service pack is. It's a rollup of those "tiny minor fixes," bundled into one for convenience, just like Apple does. Sure, they usually add something different to make it worth doing the rollup and rollout, but most of it is old work repackaged to save time.
...That essentially is a reinstall of the OS, complete with setup "please wait" screen. Yaaaaaay.
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Snow Leopard was an almost complete rewrite of the OS. They're trying to get rid of the Carbon legacy bits and the stuff that's there for PPC. Tiger was fast on iNtel even though it was written for PPC, Snow Leopard is fast. And nobody gives you the clean out of the box experience Apple does. I work with Macs all day, I've probably tinkered with thousands of them over the years, but I still am taken aback at the first push of that power button...
Yeah, Apple makes some changes to Unix, but so does *every* distro maker. I remember the first time I tried to work with Apache 2 in Ubuntu linux... well, let's just say they were liberal in their interpretation of where things go.....
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I love these type of slamfests, they... WHAT??? :confused:
A very small amount of people know how computers work, beyond "press buttan, reccev porno".
There's more??? MORE PORNO??
AArrghhghghghhgh....
desiv
;)
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I had to intermittently backup everything and reinstall the OS to make it usable again.
I had to deal with either no anti-virus (I caught conficker because of this) or enjoy AVgs nagging to update and restart
I got tired of not being able to encode video in any of the open source encoders and still play my online games
I was frustrated with WGA, "Sorry Billy, yes I pirated this version, now be a good boy and SMB and get the Fuck off my machine!"
I hated the games for windows having OS locks (can run on xp, but won't without a crack, ie. Halo 2) and no, Apple and devs make sure that even some new apps run in Panther.
Sorry to say that again, but you urgently need to learn how to use computers. None of your sentences is true, and any just-averagely-skilled Windows user can easily subscribe. The need to backup your datas is true for any operating system, since your hard drive may break any time. You don't even need to backup your documents, because if you are just a little smart, you know data must be placed in a different volume than system files (even Linux admins will tell you that /home must be placed on a different partition than /). If you are used to place your data together with your system files, then your are doing an extremely wrong thing. You don't need antiviruses, if you just set up an admin user and a regular user, and then use the first for mantainance, and the second for regolar computing. Even if I shouldn't tell you, there are NO WGA restrictions that forbid to use hacked/cracked/pirated software (you shouldn't use it anyway), and you actually can use your open source codecs to encode whatever you wish on any Windows version, Vista and 7 included. The only DRM you'll find is the one connected to the Windows Media Player when you have to deal with DHCP-protected contents, and it's exactly the same kind of DRM you'll find on ANY blu-ray disc player, since Microsoft wouldn't get permission to play those contents, if they didn't pay for their license and protect digital rights that way. In the end, a MacOS and more in general an Apple user shouldn't ever talk about restrictions of freedom to Windows users: in Italy we have a good motto for this, "sembra il bue che dà del cornuto all'asino", which basically means that you shouldn't laugh about someone else's problems, when yours are bigger in the same area.
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Sorry to say that again, but you urgently need to learn how to use computers. None of your sentences is true, and any just-averagely-skilled Windows user can easily subscribe.
Everything you say is wrong. Be quiet.
The need to backup your datas is true for any operating system, since your hard drive may break any time. You don't even need to backup your documents, because if you are just a little smart, you know data must be placed in a different volume than system files (even Linux admins will tell you that /home must be placed on a different partition than /). If you are used to place your data together with your system files, then your are doing an extremely wrong thing. You don't need antiviruses, if you just set up an admin user and a regular user, and then use the first for mantainance, and the second for regolar computing.
That's not what he meant. He was referring to the phenomena of "windows rot" where the computer gradually slows down, and only a reinstall can fix it. This is a very real thing.
if I shouldn't tell you, there are NO WGA restrictions that forbid to use hacked/cracked/pirated software (you shouldn't use it anyway), and you actually can use your open source codecs to encode whatever you wish on any Windows version, Vista and 7 included.
He was referring to the copy protection of the OS itself.
The only DRM you'll find is the one connected to the Windows Media Player when you have to deal with DHCP-protected contents, and it's exactly the same kind of DRM you'll find on ANY blu-ray disc player, since Microsoft wouldn't get permission to play those contents, if they didn't pay for their license and protect digital rights that way.
...And the DRM stopping you from pirating the OS, which he was actually talking about.
the end, a MacOS and more in general an Apple user shouldn't ever talk about restrictions of freedom to Windows users: in Italy we have a good motto for this, "sembra il bue che dà del cornuto all'asino", which basically means that you shouldn't laugh about someone else's problems, when yours are bigger in the same area.
What? Macs have NO copy protection or DRM of any kind. iTunes is DRM free now, and you can install your copy of OS X on an infinite amount of computers and make as many "backup copies" as you like. My 1999 G3 iMac has the system software from a 2004 eMac G4, on DVD-R. No problem installing.
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I love these type of slamfests, they... WHAT??? :confused:
There's more??? MORE PORNO??
AArrghhghghghhgh....
desiv
;)
That'll probably be the first external add on to the Xena bus, a sex bot. Guess 64K of RAM could handle it? That'll rock Helgis' world.
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Paolone,
I am a very knowledgable person on computers, and you're picking a fight in the wrong place. Hell Labs is right, I was referring to windows rot which happens because all the websites and mis managements of the OS write little files to pad the ram and leave rest for the user applications. i've seen it. In order to run windoze safely and properly, you need to: optimize the swap, get firefox (or chrome), turn off "Luna", msconfig remove all unimportant startup apps, defrag, and restart a total of four times.
Compared to OS X Tiger: Install firefox, get your apps, remove Mail and Safari, install all updates your done. At least MacOS X by default lets you chose if you want to install all the software update, windows' automatic updates do it behind your back. :p
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@ Dammy
..sadly it sounds like you already made up your mind :-( ...I run OS4.1 with Update 1 natively on my Samflex and I am very happy with it..it's by far the best AmigaOS system that I have ever owned and I assume people will be saying the same about the X1000 :-)
Sadly isnt the word I'd use... Too many users log into Amiga forums like this where they have no place in a proAmiga world anymore... which thankfully means they have no voice either... not in my world at any rate...
you seem like a sensible fellow klx300r heh
I too have a sam-flex running 4.1.x etc... my initial sam-ep 440 lives in an antistatic bag not doing anything anymore... a bit like my 90+ classic systems lol
I for one am hoping the X1000 is as expensive as they can make it... I love the idea of running a top system again out of the hands of the weak and unworthy :roflmao:
LIke I've always said the Amiga doesn't need any help from anyone... it'll be fine just on its own... It's an exciting time for us!
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I for one am hoping the X1000 is as expensive as they can make it... I love the idea of running a top system again out of the hands of the weak and unworthy :roflmao:
LIke I've always said the Amiga doesn't need any help from anyone... it'll be fine just on its own... It's an exciting time for us!
This is a troll post right? Are we trying to give me another nanostroke?
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Paolone,
I am a very knowledgable person on computers, and you're picking a fight in the wrong place. Hell Labs is right, I was referring to windows rot which happens because all the websites and mis managements of the OS write little files to pad the ram and leave rest for the user applications. i've seen it. In order to run windoze safely and properly, you need to: optimize the swap, get firefox (or chrome), turn off "Luna", msconfig remove all unimportant startup apps, defrag, and restart a total of four times.
Then if you're a very knowledgable person on computers, you'd may be intersted in starting to use your knowledges. Windows usually rots on dumb people's computers, while remains perfectly functional and full-speed on smart people's ones. Otherwise, I'd barely explain why I never needed to reinstall anything for this "rot" thing. Nor why I never got a virus in years and years that I haven't ever installed an Antivitus. When I reinstalled, generally, is 'cos I've upgraded the main board with a totally different one. And it's not needed anymore with 7: I have a Win7 installation on a disc I share with all the mainboards I receive for testing pourposes, and it generally works immediately after all drivers have been installed.
About optimizations: some system services are meant to run in background to speed up common operations like file searches and so. If you don't need them, you can disable them. However, if you need them, you'll be happy the system indexer is stealing a little percentage of your processor grunt at given times. Optimizing the swap file won't bring great performance gains, unless you already know exactly how much virtual memory you need, and you set this value both for minimum and maximum dimensions of the swap file, possibly allocating it on a dedicated volume. Chrome or Firefox are NOT Windows component, so anything you do with them to speed up Windows, is not a Windows' issue.
Compared to OS X Tiger: Install firefox, get your apps, remove Mail and Safari, install all updates your done. At least MacOS X by default lets you chose if you want to install all the software update, windows' automatic updates do it behind your back. :p
Yes, you definitely don't know Windows. Windows Update lets you decide what to do from the very beginning, exactly when you install the operating system. So if you don't want automatic updates, you just disable them (at least on Win7, which is Windows current release).
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Everything you say is wrong. Be quiet.
1. That's not what he meant. He was referring to the phenomena of "windows rot" where the computer gradually slows down, and only a reinstall can fix it. This is a very real thing.
2. He was referring to the copy protection of the OS itself.
3. ...And the DRM stopping you from pirating the OS, which he was actually talking about.
4. What? Macs have NO copy protection or DRM of any kind. iTunes is DRM free now, and you can install your copy of OS X on an infinite amount of computers and make as many "backup copies" as you like. My 1999 G3 iMac has the system software from a 2004 eMac G4, on DVD-R. No problem installing.
1. I've already answered about this.
2. and 3. There's no copy protection for the OS itself. There is a license checking that prevents people from STEALING the ability to run a commercial operating system if you haven't paid for it. And IMHO you can't argue against Microsoft for protecting their IPs.
And NO, "I got tired of not being able to encode video in any of the open source encoders" is definitely NOT related to the inability to duplicate the Windows disc.
4. Yes yes, I know that iPhone (which should be an Apple product, isn't it?) is the most open, freedom-wise smartphone all over the world. iPhoners just like to "unlock" it to amuse themselves. And well, everybody knows MacOS for being the most self-exposing operating system.
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No, you're wrong, all post-nubus ppc macs are not like Pcs at all. A PC has SSE software, but a g4 has an actual altivec FPU,
Since the advent of the Pentium, all X86 have had extra instructions similar to altivec SEE, MMX 3DNow. This isn't software, its actual hardware.
A PC runs little endian, PPC runs big-endian AND little endian. A mac has OF, Pcs have BIOS.
Wake up. I specifically stated that beyond the CPU, the arch was the same.
It is, both have a cpu hooked up to a northbridge which in turn hooks up the memory, AGP/PCIE and southbridge. The southbridge handles USB PCI and more recently PCIE. What the rom has on it is irrelevant to the point about architecture.
The differences go on.
Only for those who have no clue about how their computer works.
And to date, the most populous Big-Endian archittecture is PPC
Actually PPC is bi-endian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endian). And even if we were strictly talking Big-Endian ARM still has it beat hands down in shear volume (then again, by numbers sold, ARM beats everything).
the 68k is VERY similar to a PPC.
I'll leave it up to the hardware folks to explain to explain why this isn't the case.
And as far as OCS/ECS/AGA goes, their relatives are the GPU, SPU and North/South Bridge chips in Macs and PCs, i wasn't focusibng on them.
They have nothing to do with each other. The Amiga and its arch was a closed source effort. It was designed originally to be a games console and it shows. It has more in common with a modern games console then it does a PC.
I have to say that PPC macs have more lifetime than any PC to a consumer.
Which is why they're currently being dumped wholesale on ebay at the moment.
My iBook g4 runs circles around my brother's Phenom 3Gb laptop, at 768mb and 1.33 Ghz at that, because it runs Micro$haft 7.
Right up until you need to do something that needs some seriously heavy grunt. Also, knock it off with the "windoze" "Micro$haft" nonsense, what are you, 12?
My point is, I don't mind waiting two hours for 720p dvd5 video to be encoded,
I do. Fortunately I don't need to wait.
because I can browse, play Ut2004 and do whatever while I wait, if I encoded on my HT, it locked up the RAM so much i couldn't play even Half Life.
So can I. And my machine still has a warranty.
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1. I've already answered about this.
No you haven't.
2. and 3. There's no copy protection for the OS itself. There is a license checking that prevents people from STEALING the ability to run a commercial operating system if you haven't paid for it. And IMHO you can't argue against Microsoft for protecting their IPs.
err, rewind here. First you say:
2. and 3. There's no copy protection for the OS itself.
Then you say:
There is a license checking that prevents people from STEALING the ability to run a commercial operating system if you haven't paid for it.
You just proved yourself wrong in the next sentence. Give him a big clap everyone, he deserves it.
And NO, "I got tired of not being able to encode video in any of the open source encoders" is definitely NOT related to the inability to duplicate the Windows disc.
I never said it was, and he never said it was. You clearly aren't as good at english as you think you are; this is basic reading comprehension.
Also, you can't just copy the disc without cracking it, even with an ISO program. I've tried. It actually tells you it's priated.
4. Yes yes, I know that iPhone (which should be an Apple product, isn't it?) is the most open, freedom-wise smartphone all over the world. iPhoners just like to "unlock" it to amuse themselves. And well, everybody knows MacOS for being the most self-exposing operating system.
Why are you talking about the iPhone? It's a phone. It's not relevent to a computer disscussion
And MacOS, or MacOS X? I'll cover both to show you how wrong you are.
MacOS:
Big ass bundles of developer documentation, right down to every weird little detail of the hardware were avalible. In fact There is a website (http://folklore.org), where the developers have explained how the system itself works, in a clear and detailed manner, occasionally even releasing source code.
If you meant something stupid, like "the command line is hidden blah blah blah", bare in mind that the macintosh hardware was actually completely incapable of supporting text mode. On first boot, before the operating system is actually loaded even slightly, it's already drawing the mouse cursor. There is no text support in hardware, it's all graphical. As a consiquence, everything is done through the GUI, nothing is left out.
(this is a good thing, the command line is terrible and slower than a GUI. Studies have actually shown that the perceved difference in speed is due to the brain "hourglassing", where you are unconcious as you remember what next to type. The whole thing is smoothed over by the brain. I suppose you could call it a form of amnesia.)
MacOS X:
The entire OS, bar the NS apis and windowing engine, is open source. It's unix. It's just unix. Everyone can do anything. My main Mac doesn't run an apple kernel, for example, I use one with more hardware support.
As with the first mac os, everything is documented. It has been since roughly 1988 when the NeXT was launched. you can do what you like. How do you think they know how to jailbreak the iPhone?
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That'll probably be the first external add on to the Xena bus, a sex bot. Guess 64K of RAM could handle it? That'll rock Helgis' world.
I'm working on that, an expansion card for the "xorro" slot to control a number of "vibration" devices. Having a hell of a time trying to get the profile for the PCIe x16 slot designed. If anybody knows of a lib for the card edge connector for a pcie 16x interface for altium, i'd love to see it.
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I want to read more about DHCP-protected contents, please :)
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I want to read more about DHCP-protected contents, please :)
What does that mean anyway?
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I love how the iphone gets trotted out as an argument that the Mac OS is locked down..
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I love how the iphone gets trotted out as an argument that the Mac OS is locked down..
Really it's just more evidence that anti-apple zelots don't really know anything about them in the slightest.
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For me the iPhone is the "new Amiga"... It is a cheap powerful computing platform, with rich multimedia capibility... It also redefined the Market in its own image and perhaps most importantly you can easily write your own apps for it... It fills the Amiga shaped hole that I had in my life for the past 10years.
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To me, the iPhone is more like the new classic Mac. Does some things well, is advertised REALLY well. Has some massively glaring faults. Has a dedicated following. And will likely still be around in a decade.
Of course that puts the Android as the PC. Not quite as good or polished yet. Far more open. Hardware produced by a ton of companies. Improving at a dramatically faster rate than Apple, and destined to be the 90% market compared to apples 10% market.
Nokia and Palm seem to be the Atari and Amiga of the smart phone story. I haven't used either, but from the sounds of it, they are superior to their competition in hardware, and what software they do have, but they just don't seem to be able to get enough mind share to really compete. Those that have them love them, but the software selections are limited due to small market share.
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For me, the iPhone is primarily a money-making machine for Apple.
As a product I don't grasp it, I use one every now and then, but I just don't see what's so great about it. Just a few days ago I get frustrated as I could not change equalizer settings ad-hoc while listening to youtube or "ipod" - due to lack of multitasking I could not go to the sound prefs where equalizer settings are, without the ipod/browser apps exiting - also there are no manual settings, just a long list of predefined settings with more or less meaningless names - ridiculous. The mail reader is just rubbish compared to what I'm used to on phone, and third party IbisMail wasn't that much better. The input method of typing with finger on a virtual keyboard is just too slow and clumsy, every time I use it I long back to stylus on SE phones, where I can type without even looking at the device. And how do I change to a different charset anyways? And the list of other obvious shortcomings is long and well known.
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Could we just go with a new platform and let Amiga be Amiga.
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I have an iPod touch and I only use it as a portable web browser. All I ever wanted and it was relatively cheap. I can check my mail when I'm on the toilet, read stupid crap on the internet when I'm laying in bed.
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... read stupid crap on the internet when I'm laying in bed.
Reminds me, can one turn off the automated screen rotation? Without jailbreaking it, that is?
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Really it's just more evidence that anti-apple zelots don't really know anything about them in the slightest.
I would be one of them, and I bet I have more apple products than you :)
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Reminds me, can one turn off the automated screen rotation? Without jailbreaking it, that is?
I hate that, it drives me up the wall. I don't know of any way to fix the layout. As far as I'm concerned it should always be in landscape mode, can't use the keyboard for anything in portrait mode.
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I would be one of them, and I bet I have more apple products than you :)
Meh. I think between 76-85 and 98-04 apple were incredibly awesome. 85-98 was nothing but money grabbing because the people in charge didn't "know" computers, and 98-04 they pulled a finger out of their arses. Right now though, the hardware is boring, both archectuarly and athstetically, and the advertisements piss me right off. I'm not so sure they're giving the Macintosh the attention it deserves right now. But then again if it was up to me, everything after system 6 would have been done completely different. pre-emptive multitasking MacOS... God. I need to win the lottery. How much do you recon the rights to the old mac os are worth?
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PPC vs X86 has been basically outlined here, I think I will stick w/ PPC thank you very much, no more talk of that. As for calling me 12 years old with the Microshaft name calling, my Chief IT Officer uncle of CAT4 uses it and he shares my feelings with windows and he uses those terms all the time.
Don't try to speak english if you know you can't comprehend a native speaker's terms, Hell Labs is right in saying that some of my reasons have nothing to do with disc copying, remember my post is much more broad than that.
And don't tell me I could've used windows better or managed it better, its an inferior design stolen from IBM OS/2 and implemented just as poorly, tell me when Bill Gates stops adding useless APIs and system locks and a fancy GUI update that makes it look new. If MS actually cared about its customers, they'd release XP for free and prior 9x releases instead of forcing you to upgrade. The Powermac G3, for example was made in 1999 and was supported until 2007 Leopard, the average 2005 PC can't run 7 without extensive stripping down of it (MS unsupported)
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The avarige 2005 PC can't even run xp any more. When I was running my celeron/512mb system I wanted to cut my dick off every time I tried to open a word processor and firefox at the same time. it's weird how the system requirements for Xp are 128mb ram, but it uses just under 350 on first boot. No weird load-on-startup programs installed, theming turned off.
sloooooow
Oh yeah, Did you know that NTs design was based on VMS as well as OS/2? And they stole the TCP/IP stack from BSD.
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The avarige 2005 PC can't even run xp any more. When I was running my celeron/512mb system I wanted to cut my dick off every time I tried to open a word processor and firefox at the same time. it's weird how the system requirements for Xp are 128mb ram, but it uses just under 350 on first boot. No weird load-on-startup programs installed, theming turned off.
sloooooow
I've had some slow computing experiences in my time spent here on Earth, but never once have I ever thought about cutting my dick off because of it.
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I've had some slow computing experiences in my time spent here on Earth, but never once have I ever thought about cutting my dick off because of it.
It was about the same as this level of rage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc). There's a point where you just want to break everything, all at once.
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Don't know if you can turn off the accelerometer without jailbreaking. There's a Cydia app called RotationInhibitor, but you can't load Cydia apps without jailbreak.
Reminds me, can one turn off the automated screen rotation? Without jailbreaking it, that is?
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Oh yeah, Did you know that NTs design was based on VMS as well as OS/2?
Naturally, since many of the same people were involved.
And they stole the TCP/IP stack from BSD.
How do one steal from BSD? :hammer:
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The avarige 2005 PC can't even run xp any more. When I was running my celeron/512mb system I wanted to cut my dick off every time I tried to open a word processor and firefox at the same time. it's weird how the system requirements for Xp are 128mb ram, but it uses just under 350 on first boot. No weird load-on-startup programs installed, theming turned off.
sloooooow
Oh yeah, Did you know that NTs design was based on VMS as well as OS/2? And they stole the TCP/IP stack from BSD.
Xp memory use went up with each service pack. The system took up around 128mbs in 2001 but you needed 256 to actually run anything and not die of impatience. Service pack 2 upped the anti to around 200mb for the system and so you needed a 512mb machine to do anything. I am writing this on a late 2003 xp pro laptop and it takes 305mbs for the system. No problem with 1.25gb of memory. After just checking, 2 web browsers are using 325mbs between them. 512mb just won't do it in the modern world. Xp is still usable but just barely so at 512mb.
And my A4000 is just so happy with 80mb. So much the world has changed.
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How do one steal from BSD? :hammer:
They weren't exactly shouting from the rooftops "hey! we suck so much at network software, we had to use this instead of making our own!" In fact i'm not sure that, as a company they acknowledge the use of BSD code at all.
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Xp memory use went up with each service pack. The system took up around 128mbs in 2001 but you needed 256 to actually run anything and not die of impatience. Service pack 2 upped the anti to around 200mb for the system and so you needed a 512mb machine to do anything. I am writing this on a late 2003 xp pro laptop and it takes 305mbs for the system. No problem with 1.25gb of memory. After just checking, 2 web browsers are using 325mbs between them. 512mb just won't do it in the modern world. Xp is still usable but just barely so at 512mb.
And my A4000 is just so happy with 80mb. So much the world has changed.
And to think I have the encyclopedia brittanica text and pictures on one 640 MB CD ROM.
How can a 2 web browsers and a gui OS need the equivalent amount as an encyclopedia?
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shitty coding and useless features.
To be honest if the software industry (except games) stopped in 1995, nothing of any importance would be lost.
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And to think I have the encyclopedia brittanica text and pictures on one 640 MB CD ROM.
How can a 2 web browsers and a gui OS need the equivalent amount as an encyclopedia?
Efficient use of memory is not a windows specialty. Nor is OSX that much better. I had an OSX machine for a while and I found that applications seemed to hold onto memory after you had quit so it could be only be run a few days without serious slowdowns--the free memory just got less and less even though I wasn't running that much. Windows does a little better but it is still a good idea to shut down the machine and reset it after 10 days or so.
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It was about the same as this level of rage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc). There's a point where you just want to break everything, all at once.
If you get to the point of rage like the guy in the video you posted:
(http://i.imgur.com/Tj2Sl.png)
You have serious issues. This dude tried to shove a remote up his ass over his mom canceling his WOW account, but that's not nearly as bad as cutting your dick off over win XP.
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PPC vs X86 has been basically outlined here, I think I will stick w/ PPC thank you very much, no more talk of that.
I genuinely don't care. For me, a computer is a tool only. If a given computer cannot do what I demand of it, I find something that can (be it a software or hardware solution). That is all. Advocacy based on processor lineages to me is somewhat pointless since my particular OS of choice runs on just about all of them.
As for calling me 12 years old with the Microshaft name calling,
I asked if you were 12 because that sort of petty name calling is what I would expect from a 12 year old.
Act your age, not your shoe size.
my Chief IT Officer uncle of CAT4 uses it and he shares my feelings with windows and he uses those terms all the time.
See above.
Don't try to speak english if you know you can't comprehend a native speaker's terms,
I fully understand the terms, what with being a native speaker myself.
PROTIP: If you're going to make a pedantic argument, do so only after checking your own grammar - English is a name and as such always starts with a capital letter.
And don't tell me I could've used windows better or managed it better
I never brought this up, but now that you mention it yes, I will. For starters you could have not been a pirate. Frankly that you chose that route I hold absolutely no sympathy for you at all.
its an inferior design stolen from IBM OS/2 and implemented just as poorly
And that legitimises your incompetence and theft how?
If MS actually cared about its customers, they'd release XP for free and prior 9x releases instead of forcing you to upgrade.
What, you mean like older versions of OSX are free?
The Powermac G3, for example was made in 1999 and was supported until 2007 Leopard, the average 2005 PC can't run 7 without extensive stripping down of it (MS unsupported)
Of course what you neglect to mention is that same G3 system would have to have maxxed out its ram and likely have required an upgrade or two in the mean time of its graphics card in order to get anything approaching usable. Works both ways old bean.
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This thread is going on and on about Windows vs Mac. Check the title, I believe it mentions Amiga.
Also, I would have a software solution first, let people try out your new Amiga system before they invest in hardware.
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Also, I would have a software solution first, let people try out your new Amiga system before they invest in hardware.
Theres an app (http://www.winuae.net/) for that. :lol:
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This thread is going on and on about Windows vs Mac. Check the title, I believe it mentions Amiga.
.
Kind of sucks really. I like Mac, Windows, Linux and Amiga. I use 'em all and I suspect most of us are kind of OS agnostic in this regard.
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Yes a lot of us are just technoids and knowledgable about computers and have been using them for a long time. I've actually found this thread amusing reading on a cold and snowy day. Amigans see the PC and Mac from a different perspective, especially us oldtimers who lived through the evolution of the whole thing. Yes were digressing from the Amiga but it's an interesting digression.
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Some of those terms were directed at someone else, the leander so please don't take much of those personally at you. The asking about me being twelve stuff was you the rest was directed at Paolone, the last few were just general arguements.
I have decided to state my stance one last time, then stop hijacking this thread.
I like all OSes but Windows, I support ReactOS in its goals to improve it and help topple it.
I don't care for x86 based on lineage, but the fact that many of the CPUs and mobos for it are garbage and to get anything lasting you need to fork over a price like Apples premiums and that won't last 10 years, plus a PPC mac is dirt cheap and fast and cleanly designed.
I am hereby stopping the debate I helped to kindle, if anyone wishes to continue it, lets make a new thread.
We can all conclude that nothing will be quite like the Amiga, but the x1000 is an expensive and risky venture for A-EON and Hyperion. MOS is working on the PPC macs, and AROS is going x86 and PPC at once (and will probably need to speed up development to keep up)
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Some of those terms were directed at someone else
It's generally considered good etiquette to quote who you are responding to, or failing that @.
the leander so please don't take much of those personally at you.
I didn't, I thought I'd made it clear too in the last post... Never mind.
I don't care for x86 based on lineage, but the fact that many of the CPUs and mobos for it are garbage and to get anything lasting you need to fork over a price like Apples premiums and that won't last 10 years, plus a PPC mac is dirt cheap and fast and cleanly designed.
At the time, those PPC Macs came at a truly staggering premium. If you pay that sort of cash out I'd expect them to last a good long while. With the exception of Celeron/Duron based systems the CPUs on the PC side were fairly decent. Mobos... Well you get what you pay for. But the main killer for cheap PCs were low amounts of ram and cheap and nasty PSU's (E-machines and Compaq I'm looking at you).
As with anything, you get what you pay for.
We can all conclude that nothing will be quite like the Amiga
I agree here - the market back then was more or less virgin, now it is saturated and mature.
but the x1000 is an expensive and risky venture for A-EON and Hyperion.
I would go so far to say doomed. Even ignoring the whole PPC/X86 price performance issues, lack of software etc. We're in the middle of the largest recession since the Great Depression. Bringing out a premium and highly niche product like the X1000 seems to me to be the height of folly.
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Probably a typo.
This thread is going on and on about Windows vs Mac. Check the title, I believe it mentions Amiga.
Also, I would have a software solution first, let people try out your new Amiga system before they invest in hardware.
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Hi,
@haywirepc,
Don't know if there will ever be another computer like the Amiga, the Amiga was a leader in sound and graphics at the time of its birth, today its graphics and sound can be over run by a childs small handheld learning computer.
but
hold on to your hats, the next five years will make the computers that are out today look like the first calculators. They are talking about terrahertz cpu's, graphics like you haven't seen before, and sound so real that you would swear you were at a concert if you could afford the speakers that can produce it.
The computers of the future well it just might be awesome. Not Amazing just Awesome.
smerf
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Hi,
@bloodline,
To me the iphone is the worst piece of crap that was ever brought out to the world, it is like everything else rotten core brings out. An overpriced piece of junk that has people dying on the roads because like most of todays new generation, they don't know when to drive and when to text or play with their new tech toys. The girl who hit me was texting on her iphone GRRRRR!!!! another knotheaded rotten core apple user, had to replace my saturn auto.
Now lets get this straight, I hate cell phones, but I carry one for emergencies, and thats it, my auto has to be off the road before I use it. You young generation users just don't understand that a auto is 3000 lbs. of dynomite waiting to go off.
I see these young kids at work all the time with their iphones, if they worked as hard as they used their iphones, this world would have no problems, but getting them to put down their iphones and work, welllll.
smerf
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Forgive me as I have not read all of this very long thread so maybe this question was asked (all I saw was mac vs windows messages).
For another machine to be "like the Amiga", do we have a working definition of what being "like an Amiga" is? What are the essential elements of Amiganess?
I don't think the answer to this question includes any hardware notions as all "modern" machines ought to have adequate sound, color and animation capabilities (all things the Amiga pioneered).
I don't think the answer includes a lot of software notions like multitasking and linear address spaces (again pioneered by Amiga) as all modern machines should have these.
Maybe some of the essential distillations of the Amiga might include:
1 - A nimble OS that programmers can actually fully understand. The Amiga OS was the last OS I completely understood. I completely understood Unix V6 (circa 1978) but I could probably never completely understand any modern version of Linux. Too big.
2 - A nimble OS that didn't get in your way. Interesting, this came back to the OS for me. The machine I'm typing this on can, if all cores were running flat out, execute something like 10 billion operations per second. Sometimes I wait for minutes while Vista is doing "something". I have no frigging idea what it's doing but I'd like to think that with the trillions of operations that the machine could have been doing while I'm waiting for it, it might have cured AIDS or cancer.
On the Amiga I pretty much knew what every cycle was being used for. If a disk head moved, I pretty much knew why. There weren't any mysteries.
So maybe what I mean is an environment that is open to examination and is fully documented. I guess I'm back to my number 1 - an environment which I can fully understand.
3 - Something that I think made the Amiga the Amiga was the non-isolation of tasks. The ability for one process to poke the memory of another process really made a lot of cool things possible. I don't think this could be done today and allow the platform to be a success. In this era of malware no system that allowed easy access of any memory by anyone would make it.
I don't know - fast forwarding to 2010 I don't really know what being "like an Amiga" means today. I think this is a really cool question though and would love to know what you folks think.
(as an aside: Carl Sassenrath was a genius)
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@smerf
Yeah, we realised that the mobile phone basically duplicated the landline, but wasn't stuck in one place, so we dumped the landline.
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@smerf
Terrahertz chips? Not bloody likely, that's why the cores keep increasing. The i7 has 6 cores. The Amiga dream of parallel processing is here, except for the Amiga, of course, which supports only one core.
Indeed everything that the Amiga promised in '85 has been delivered, just not by the Amiga....
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I don't know - fast forwarding to 2010 I don't really know what being "like an Amiga" means today. I think this is a really cool question though and would love to know what you folks think.
(as an aside: Carl Sassenrath was a genius)
Second about C.S.
And THAT is the question...
To be honest, I don't know...
I've had (and have) lots of computers. Some I really like. Some the perform incredibly (much better than my Amigas). Some that were cutting edge. Some that are.. er. .just bizarre... I like almost all tech..
But the Amiga was about tech AND much more.
It was that feeling that we were part of something that was ahead of its time. Not a few months or years even..
It was the elegance of the design...
When someone (on this or another board) asked about the best part of the Amiga, I answered "intuition", because I was able to write fully Windowed programs in C and actually understand what it was doing and why.
I can do that in other languages, but parts I understand and parts I don't.
I would describe the Amiga - hardware, software, interface, et al as elegant...
I don't see that anymore...
I see bloated, incredibly badly designed devices that are only "incredible" because they have so much memory and CPU that it forces it's way past.
If you're a network person, you can kind of compare it to the Ethernet/Token Ring comparison. Ethernet won. It was so fast and cheap, it was inevitable..
But you look at what you have to do to get it where it is, switching to the port, and you still have collisions on the switch backplanes...
Then you look at Token-Ring.. Packets on the wire... Upstream and Downsteam neighbors... It was an elegant protocol...
Now, it's not the same extreme. I don't run Token Ring at home still, and I do still use my Amigas. :-)
But I think that the combination of the incredible technology and the elegance of the design is what the Amiga is about to me...
Other machines have some great designs.. But I don't see what I see in the Amiga. And now, there is so much power and RAM, there is no reason to be elegant... It's just sad... IMHO..
I don't see how there will ever be another computer like the Amiga..
But maybe..
desiv
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Crazy idea - what if the "next Amiga" was a web browser? A web browser that emulated the Amiga and used the Internet as its disk drive? Think of ADPro (for instance) as a place on the Internet. Navigate to it on your Workbench would be navigating to it over the Internet behind the scenes. It would download to the browser and run in its sandbox like it was running on a real Amiga.
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If you get to the point of rage like the guy in the video you posted: You have serious issues. This dude tried to shove a remote up his ass over his mom canceling his WOW account, but that's not nearly as bad as cutting your dick off over win XP.
Dick is still attached. If you're interested, I actually kicked through the front of the tower case in one go. Emachines cases are really, really weak. Foot>pot metal.
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Bloat is in the eye of the beholder, the Amiga was bloated compared to the old CPM machine I started with. I could put an operating system, a word processor and the data on a 90 MB disk, compared to that the Amiga was nothing but a bloated over powered hog.
And you programmed in C, how luxurious, you didn't really know what the system was doing underneath, you let the operating system put windows on the screen! This kids today just don't know what it takes to make a computer work.
Seriously, there is nothing I don't understand when I program for the Mac or iPhone, it's all right there, I'm just assisted with the code, I don't have to write a browser to open a webpage, it's just a system call. Nothing wrong with that anymore than letting the system handle the windows or any other bits.
Do you drive instead of walk? Fly the ocean instead of swimming across it? Life moves on. The hard bits move on. There's nothing less elegant about an iPhone than an Amiga because it has more lines of code than there is less elegant about a human than there is about a house fly.
The iPhone has a clean, neat relationship between the hardware, operating system and software. It all fits together in an elegant way. The operating system does what it needs to, and gets out of the user's face when a program is loaded. The thing is rock solid, no gurus. Elegance isn't about size, it's about form and function, both of which the iPhone has in spades. Like it or not, the iPhone is elegant, and while Android and WebOS has the possibility of becoming elegant, they aren't quite there yet.
And the iPhone was a game changer, mobile phones will never be the same, the iPhone has changed the future of mobile devices, they are now pocket computers, something that everyone knew would come, but iPhone delivered it.
Every OS has rules, lines you can't cross, sometimes these lines become a fatal flaw, like AmigaOS' lack of memory protection, sometimes not.
Second about C.S.
And THAT is the question...
To be honest, I don't know...
I've had (and have) lots of computers. Some I really like. Some the perform incredibly (much better than my Amigas). Some that were cutting edge. Some that are.. er. .just bizarre... I like almost all tech..
But the Amiga was about tech AND much more.
It was that feeling that we were part of something that was ahead of its time. Not a few months or years even..
It was the elegance of the design...
When someone (on this or another board) asked about the best part of the Amiga, I answered "intuition", because I was able to write fully Windowed programs in C and actually understand what it was doing and why.
I can do that in other languages, but parts I understand and parts I don't.
I would describe the Amiga - hardware, software, interface, et al as elegant...
I don't see that anymore...
I see bloated, incredibly badly designed devices that are only "incredible" because they have so much memory and CPU that it forces it's way past.
If you're a network person, you can kind of compare it to the Ethernet/Token Ring comparison. Ethernet won. It was so fast and cheap, it was inevitable..
But you look at what you have to do to get it where it is, switching to the port, and you still have collisions on the switch backplanes...
Then you look at Token-Ring.. Packets on the wire... Upstream and Downsteam neighbors... It was an elegant protocol...
Now, it's not the same extreme. I don't run Token Ring at home still, and I do still use my Amigas. :-)
But I think that the combination of the incredible technology and the elegance of the design is what the Amiga is about to me...
Other machines have some great designs.. But I don't see what I see in the Amiga. And now, there is so much power and RAM, there is no reason to be elegant... It's just sad... IMHO..
I don't see how there will ever be another computer like the Amiga..
But maybe..
desiv
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For another machine to be "like the Amiga", do we have a working definition of what being "like an Amiga" is? What are the essential elements of Amiganess?
1. Ease of use and and easy learning curve to more advanced operations
2. Top notch sound and graphics
3. Low footprint and low resource usage. (I don't want an office app installing half of its functions in memory when I only want to boot up and play games).
4. Compatibility with old software. (Going from 1.3 to 2.04 then 3.1 only broke a few things. Mac kept its backwards compatibility we should do likewise.)
5. Wow factor. If you put in a disk and the thing just installs and works. Presently I have to search around for utilities or drivers or patches.
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Bloat is in the eye of the beholder, the Amiga was bloated compared to the old CPM machine I started with. I could put an operating system, a word processor and the data on a 90 MB disk, compared to that the Amiga was nothing but a bloated over powered hog.
I assume that was a typo? 90MB? :roflmao:
Yes, I used CP/M before the Amiga too (if you really did)..
And you programmed in C, how luxurious, you didn't really know what the system was doing underneath, you let the operating system put windows on the screen! This kids today just don't know what it takes to make a computer work.
I didn't say that was all I did, just that I used C. Jump to conclusions much???
Well, I don't feed trolls, so .... have fun..
desiv
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Crazy idea - what if the "next Amiga" was a web browser? A web browser that emulated the Amiga and used the Internet as its disk drive? Think of ADPro (for instance) as a place on the Internet. Navigate to it on your Workbench would be navigating to it over the Internet behind the scenes. It would download to the browser and run in its sandbox like it was running on a real Amiga.
You almost describe REBOL (http://www.rebol.com) there, you known. :)
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Maybe all this arguing about which tiny facet of the Amiga was more Amiga than any other part is a slight waste of time...
Perhaps we should see the world around us and realise that we live in a "post Amiga" world, everything that made the Amiga special is now a stardard par of the computing environment.
What we need to do is take our (as in the Amiga comunity) collective understanding of the interelationship between the features and mould the machines we use in our image... Download the SDKs and get coding, then mate we can restore what was once Amiga... Just a thought...
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I'd just like to go on record, smerf is delusional.
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Maybe all this arguing about which tiny facet of the Amiga was more Amiga than any other part is a slight waste of time...
Perhaps we should see the world around us and realise that we live in a "post Amiga" world, everything that made the Amiga special is now a stardard par of the computing environment.
What we need to do is take our (as in the Amiga comunity) collective understanding of the interelationship between the features and mould the machines we use in our image... Download the SDKs and get coding, then mate we can restore what was once Amiga... Just a thought...
Well when MOS 2.5 is released, maybe I'll learn some PPC asm and some C to help with the closest AmigaOS rebirth. Well put Bloodline, well put.
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1. Don't try to speak english if you know you can't comprehend a native speaker's terms, Hell Labs is right in saying that some of my reasons have nothing to do with disc copying, remember my post is much more broad than that.
2. And don't tell me I could've used windows better or managed it better, its an inferior design stolen from IBM OS/2 and implemented just as poorly, tell me when Bill Gates stops adding useless APIs and system locks and a fancy GUI update that makes it look new. If MS actually cared about its customers, they'd release XP for free and prior 9x releases instead of forcing you to upgrade. The Powermac G3, for example was made in 1999 and was supported until 2007 Leopard, the average 2005 PC can't run 7 without extensive stripping down of it (MS unsupported)
1. Hell lab doesn't even deserve an answer anymore, due to his poor argumenting, please don't go down deep to his level. I perfectly understood what you originally said and I rightly answered to YOU, to both the "protection of Windows itself" and "inability to use open source codecs" sentences. Then he entered the discussion and didn't add anything intersting, just tried to reverse words as he wished, like kids do on forums. But I have already answered to him once, and it's enough. I just have to apologize since I had not been enough clear about MacOS attitudes not to expose itself, but I don't understand his claiming that this discussion is on computers only, so iPhones should be off-topic. In my answer to you I've clearly said "MacOS and more in general Apple users", but maybe my poor english is not enough clear for him. Sorry for that. I will go away.
Or maybe not. Maybe I have better just ignoring his rants.
2. The fact that Windows NT has much in common with OS/2 and in your opinion represents a bad implementation of the original idea doesn't have anything in common with the poor knowledge YOU demonstrate about Windows itself. You are totally free to think Windows is a bad operating system, and you're also free to keep private your wrong ideas about it, unless you throw them into a public discussion where people can easily disagree and, best of all, clearly demonstrate that you just don't know what you're talking about.
And, in particular, don't tell me about G3s running MacOS X opposed to 2005 PCs that can't run windows 7, since I perfectly know how MacOS X runs on a G3: I REMOVED it for desperation from my G3/500 iBook since it was painfully slow, and downgraded it to MacOS classic 9.1. Yes, you can run MacOS X prior to Leopard even on ol G3 machines, but you have to expand them or just wait for ages that any silly operation will be performed. The same thing you have to do to a 2005 PC to run Windows 7 (I have a bad news for you: it works). Anyway, you don't buy Leopard or Windows 7 to run them on old hardware.
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Yep, I meant 90 KB! Hard to believe it when I think about it, but it was true you could run a CP/M machine from a single sided 5.25 inch floppy, it was quite a luxury when I obtained a second drive....
I assume that was a typo? 90MB? :roflmao:
Yes, I used CP/M before the Amiga too (if you really did)..
I didn't say that was all I did, just that I used C. Jump to conclusions much???
Well, I don't feed trolls, so .... have fun..
desiv
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Hi,
@tone007
You have to excuse dreamcast270mhz he resides in virginia and is nothing but a dumb redneck probably with an education lower than a 5th grader and deserves a Mac.
Lets be honest, Macs are for the people that really can't understand computers. Like Jobs said "Keep our users confined so that they can't mess anything up" don't let them get into the inner workings or the hardware of the computer, they just aren't smart enough for that.
So in his case the Mac is a perfect machine for him to use, and just maybe one day he will grow up and use a real machine instead of a toy.
smerf
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Hi,
@persia,
MaximumPC just wrote an article on one of the new Bell Labs CPU's, they found out that the material used on our stealth bombers can also be used to make electrical chips that can possibly reach speeds of a terrahertz with no heat sink. Bell Labs thinks that with a little developement that maybe in 2 years we may be talking about gighertz chips like the old megahertz chips, hopefully I will still be alive to see this.
Then again, I have heard other amazing things in the past, on memory, on hard drives, on paper storage etc. and never seen anything of this junk. I remember when IBM was experimenting on a paper storage medium. You saved your files to the printer, the printer printed out your program sort of in a different shade bar. Then you used a scanner like device to load it back into your computer. Vanishware.
So this could be another one of those vanishware claims. ;-D
smerf
As for being delusional, NOT.
Crazy and insane, I will buy that
Totally a nut case, you got it
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Hi,
@dreamcast270mhz,
How can you say that Microsoft stole OS/2, IBm hired Microsoft to create it, Bill Gates had a dispute with IBM on this matter and backed out of the contract and dropped IBM stating that IBM would be nothing without him and they weren't. They started failing miserably until Red Hat helped bail them out. As for Microsoft stealing OS/2 I don't think so because Gates saw that OS/2 was an inferior design and tried to convince IBM to support his new OS Windows. IBM said noway, Gates dropped IBM like a hot potato, and IBM went silent at least in the destop market.
Why should Microsoft release XP, did Amiga release AmigaOS?, did CPM release CPM? Did Atari release whatever they used? Did Apple release OSX? Did the chicken cross the road?
smerf
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Microsoft has had a nasty little habit of entering into agreements with companies to develop various things just to pull out and release something ahead of schedule leaving the other guy with his pants down. They did it to IBM, they did it to SGI.
For the record, OS/2 was fucking awful, there is a damn good reason it failed in the market place.
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Second about C.S.
And THAT is the question...
To be honest, I don't know...
I've had (and have) lots of computers. Some I really like. Some the perform incredibly (much better than my Amigas). Some that were cutting edge. Some that are.. er. .just bizarre... I like almost all tech..
But the Amiga was about tech AND much more.
It was that feeling that we were part of something that was ahead of its time. Not a few months or years even..
It was the elegance of the design...
When someone (on this or another board) asked about the best part of the Amiga, I answered "intuition", because I was able to write fully Windowed programs in C and actually understand what it was doing and why.
I can do that in other languages, but parts I understand and parts I don't.
I would describe the Amiga - hardware, software, interface, et al as elegant...
I don't see that anymore...
I see bloated, incredibly badly designed devices that are only "incredible" because they have so much memory and CPU that it forces it's way past.
If you're a network person, you can kind of compare it to the Ethernet/Token Ring comparison. Ethernet won. It was so fast and cheap, it was inevitable..
But you look at what you have to do to get it where it is, switching to the port, and you still have collisions on the switch backplanes...
Then you look at Token-Ring.. Packets on the wire... Upstream and Downsteam neighbors... It was an elegant protocol...
Now, it's not the same extreme. I don't run Token Ring at home still, and I do still use my Amigas. :-)
But I think that the combination of the incredible technology and the elegance of the design is what the Amiga is about to me...
Other machines have some great designs.. But I don't see what I see in the Amiga. And now, there is so much power and RAM, there is no reason to be elegant... It's just sad... IMHO..
I don't see how there will ever be another computer like the Amiga..
But maybe..
desiv
Like I already said, a modern day Amiga would have to..........
Be as powerful or more powerful than anything the competition was selling (previously via the use of the non-standard 680000 instead of PC Intel rubbish AND custom chips to delivery amazing multimedia facilities of PCM 4 channel sound, up to 4096 colours on static screens @ half broadcast quality and lightning fast graphic data transfer and multiple effects on screen via blitter and copper custom hardware in the A1000 in 85/86). So they must produce a machine that can run CPU intensive tasks faster than a PC costing 300% more AND play technically better games than any console that is for sale at any price today.
Supply a cutting edge responsive OS with features not present on current desktop machines (which in the Amiga's case in 1985 was fully integrated and standardised mutlimedia functions and multi-tasking. Something neither the ST the Mac or the PC had in any way shape or form...and yet now we wonder how it was possible to have such a pathetic OS as pre-Amiga A1000)
So in essence a new Amiga would cost the same as a PS3, provide the best OS for today's requirements (security, bandwidth control, crash prevention,an element of artificial intelligence so it would automate mundane tasks after noticing a pattern of recognition etc etc) and at the same time be more powerful than a Quad Core Extreme/i7 and yet play games superior in quality (technically speaking) to either a £1000 PC or a PS3/Xbox360.
And like I said, a single machine solution to do this isn't going to happen, Amiga has become a distant dream now...we were lucky to have enjoyed it when it was king of the computer world in the mid 80s.
Love your Mac or Wintel as much as you want but neither Apple or MS have done crap all worth mentioning in the last two decades compared to what Commodore did in the 3 years from C64 to Amiga 1000 launches. Sorry those ARE the facts, if you don't like them then take your bias to MS/Apple dedicated forums. Show me a tight responsive OS today that doesn't require more processing power than necessary just to move a pointer on the screen and launch some programs...and I will show you OS4 :) Multi-tasking GUI based multimedia rich OS running on amazingly future proofed hardware that lasted over half a decade safely is a testament to the A1000 and just how advance and revolutionary a product it was.
(and yes I know the Amiga's greatest advantage was ultimately its downfall, the fact it was a closed specification platform with only one manufacturer....it gave all the advantages of a console for programming but was in a revolutionary computer with an elegant and efficient OS...but Commodore left it too late with AGA and it was too little with the same 8bit sound in 1993!!)
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1. Hell lab doesn't even deserve an answer anymore, due to his poor argumenting, please don't go down deep to his level. I perfectly understood what you originally said and I rightly answered to YOU, to both the "protection of Windows itself" and "inability to use open source codecs" sentences. Then he entered the discussion and didn't add anything intersting, just tried to reverse words as he wished, like kids do on forums. But I have already answered to him once, and it's enough. I just have to apologize since I had not been enough clear about MacOS attitudes not to expose itself, but I don't understand his claiming that this discussion is on computers only, so iPhones should be off-topic. In my answer to you I've clearly said "MacOS and more in general Apple users", but maybe my poor english is not enough clear for him. Sorry for that. I will go away.
I'm not sure if you actually speak english, or if you're using google translate. At any rate, you don't really understand what other people are saying.
And, in particular, don't tell me about G3s running MacOS X opposed to 2005 PCs that can't run windows 7, since I perfectly know how MacOS X runs on a G3: I REMOVED it for desperation from my G3/500 iBook since it was painfully slow, and downgraded it to MacOS classic 9.1. Yes, you can run MacOS X prior to Leopard even on ol G3 machines, but you have to expand them or just wait for ages that any silly operation will be performed. The same thing you have to do to a 2005 PC to run Windows 7 (I have a bad news for you: it works). Anyway, you don't buy Leopard or Windows 7 to run them on old hardware.
10.3 runs fine for me. G3/400, 512mb.
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stop being a dick, please
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Sorry those ARE the facts, if you don't like them then take your bias to MS/Apple dedicated forums.
er.. Not quite sure who you were replying to, but it wasn't me...
:confused:
desiv
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10.3 runs fine for me. G3/400, 512mb.
As with all things, mileage varies. I had to work with 10.2/10.3 and Server 10.3 on old PPC macs in a previous job and it was a total pain. Unresponsive, crash prone and to add insult to injury, the server edition totally screwed up it's own filesystem one morning and couldn't be recovered. The disk itself was fine. Were it not for a regular backup, we'd have been up the creek without a paddle.
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As with all things, mileage varies. I had to work with 10.2/10.3 and Server 10.3 on old PPC macs in a previous job and it was a total pain. Unresponsive, crash prone and to add insult to injury, the server edition totally screwed up it's own filesystem one morning and couldn't be recovered. The disk itself was fine. Were it not for a regular backup, we'd have been up the creek without a paddle.
Well, something was broke then. Xserve, or powermac? I've never really heard of problems like that.
stop being a dick, please
I value honesty over manners.
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It was a PowerMac G4 running OSX server 10.3. The hardware itself was fine, it was the OS that went south.
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I value honesty over manners.
As do I, but you haven't been honest. You're cherry picking stuff and slamming folks for no reason. Take some of that mess down a notch.
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I'm not sure if you actually speak english, or if you're using google translate. At any rate, you don't really understand what other people are saying.
Sorry, mr Wilde.
10.3 runs fine for me. G3/400, 512mb.
It's a pity old G3 iBooks came with 128 megs only. And no, I'm not either look in junkyards for old RAM modules, nor I'll buy them new, since 1) their value is less than their price, 2) I don't need to revamp my old iBook just to run OSX on it, 3) looking what you say and how you say it, "runs fine for me" is something I frankly doubt about. Cheers
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I think you have to stop living in the eighties and, open your eyes. The Amiga is a piece of hardware and the OS is only lines of (mostly ASM+BCPL if we talk about the original 1.x OS) code.
You had a CPU, several chips specialised in graphics (copper+blitter), a chip doing (great) sound (and some I/O) stuff and a case.
Back then, PC didn't do sound (Mac was doing some audio though), had mostly text-modes or low-color/low-resolution graphics and of course not any kind of hardware acceleration.
Now, if we get back to today, what do you have in a PC ?
- a CPU (powerful, dual-core, 64bit, capable of doing SIMD, and many more)
- a (powerful) graphics chip doing many many more than any Amiga has ever done
- an audio chip (doing perfect audio stuff, even more than your ears can detect with 24bit audio,...)
- you even start to have chips doing some PhysX stuff (integrated in Graphics Boards)
Everything of course works in DMA (provided your OS has proper drivers).
Sounds very much like an Amiga to me.
So what is the difference between an Amiga back in time, and any PC (or Mac) today ? Well, as I see it, the PC/Mac has become the Amiga of the nineties. The difference is that the OS is far more powerful, eats a lot more resources, and is far more secure (even the less-secured Windows OS is far more secure than any AmigaOS). As much as I like the Amiga, I think most PC/Mac look like what the Amiga was... I don't see what difference would there be in an Amiga of today... Adding an FPGA or some XCORE chip won't make it more "Amiga"... I'm always amazed at how any graphics board today can handle dual screen and such high resolutions in 3D, true-color,... I'm also amazed at how multi-core is great... It's great to be able to run make using multiple cores, it's good to be able to have some videos running in the background without even noticing it... Hopefully CBM would have folllowed Apple and switched to x86.
As for the OS, I guess Amiga could have become MacOSX, without the elegance, cause frankly: AmigaOS has never been elegant (from 1.x versions, through 2.x, to 3.x, and this doesn't change with 4.x), nor easy to use btw: as much as I like it, AmigaOS isn't for the average user... and has never been. It was of course easier to use than DOS back in time, but not easier than MacOS (let's compare it to something that was considered easy...) and also ugly when compared with MacOS. The OS had interesting features, and really easy/clear disk layout (devs in devs/, tools in sys:tools, commodities in sys:tools/commodities), assigns are nice too and aren't to be found anywhere else.
So if there was to be a new Amiga, any good-specs PC like Mac and a powerful OS would do it. What about Haiku ? Enough modern, and enough different from other big-bloated OS... Haiku would be great. But I sure wouldn't base a next gen OS on old Exec+Inutuition libs, would be like build Windows 7 on top of DOS...
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@Warpdesign
Is your post directed at the original poster, the previous post, or all of us?
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Love your Mac or Wintel as much as you want but neither Apple or MS have done crap all worth mentioning in the last two decades compared to what Commodore did in the 3 years from C64 to Amiga 1000 launches.
I would definately concede the point about MS, tbh I doubt they would have even bothered updating XP were it not for Apple starting to bite (fnarr) into their marketshare and the advances of Linux. I would however draw the line at saying Apple hasn't innovated.
From a hardware perspective, sure, you're right. But as an end to end experience, no one, not even from the past can touch them. You plug in, turn on and *blam* it works. Apples single biggest selling point isn't innovative hardware, or even smexy case/formfactor designs. Its the fact that it offers a reliable, easy to use system out of the box.
That to me is an innovation worth mentioning.
Sorry those ARE the facts, if you don't like them then take your bias to MS/Apple dedicated forums.
Sorry, but you don't get to dictate who goes where on the basis that they may hold differing viewpoints.
Show me a tight responsive OS today that doesn't require more processing power than necessary just to move a pointer on the screen and launch some programs
OK (http://www.elivecd.org/).
...and I will show you OS4 :) Multi-tasking GUI based multimedia rich OS running on amazingly future proofed hardware that lasted over half a decade safely is a testament to the A1000 and just how advance and revolutionary a product it was.
If by future-proofed (I take it to mean the AmigaOne series), you mean obsolete, not fit for purpose, poorly designed, badly put together. Then yes, right with you. To compare that to what was then a truly revolutionary design in the form of the A1000 however is to do the latter a great disservice.
(and yes I know the Amiga's greatest advantage was ultimately its downfall, the fact it was a closed specification platform with only one manufacturer....it gave all the advantages of a console for programming but was in a revolutionary computer with an elegant and efficient OS...but Commodore left it too late with AGA and it was too little with the same 8bit sound in 1993!!)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who realises this.
Regardless of all else though, use what you use, enjoy it. Have fun :)
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I think you have to stop living in the eighties and, open your eyes. The Amiga is a piece of hardware and the OS is only lines of (mostly ASM+BCPL if we talk about the original 1.x OS) code.
You had a CPU, several chips specialised in graphics (copper+blitter), a chip doing (great) sound (and some I/O) stuff and a case.
Back then, PC didn't do sound (Mac was doing some audio though), had mostly text-modes or low-color/low-resolution graphics and of course not any kind of hardware acceleration.
Now, if we get back to today, what do you have in a PC ?
- a CPU (powerful, dual-core, 64bit, capable of doing SIMD, and many more)
- a (powerful) graphics chip doing many many more than any Amiga has ever done
- an audio chip (doing perfect audio stuff, even more than your ears can detect with 24bit audio,...)
- you even start to have chips doing some PhysX stuff (integrated in Graphics Boards)
Everything of course works in DMA (provided your OS has proper drivers).
Sounds very much like an Amiga to me.
i've tried to stay out of this because of the MAC vs PC arguments, but I like your thought process regarding today's hardware and software capabilities. I've had an Amiga since the A1000 in 1986 right through an A4000 Toaster / Flyer system in 1995 (super expensive at the time). All the time following every mainstream OS from the late 80's right through today.
When CBM went under, there was a time when I thought the innovation was going to die along with it. IMO, there were a number of dark years from both camps. Now in 2010, I can edit 1080HD video like it was nothing on either platform, using inexpensive hardware.
Just recently, I revived an old 2003 Shuttle SFF SB75G2 with 2 GB of cheap ram, threw in a $75 1 TB green drive, and pulled an ATI AGP Video card from the dust bin. Installed MCE 7 and connected it to the Hauppauge HD-PVR. A short config later, I am timeshifting / streaming 1080 video over a GB home network to a number of dedicated Xbox 360 media center extenders.
This is the kind of fun tinkering I would have dreamed about in the 80/90's using the Amiga and with today's excellent hardware and OS's, much of that innovation has resurfaced for me.
Having said that, I will never be quite as attached to the hardware of today as I am with the Amiga's of yesterday. I am glad there is still a large following. It's hard to imagine there would be the same enthusiasm today over the Mac or PC had their time come to an end 15+ years ago.
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Having said that, I will never be quite as attached to the hardware of today as I am with the Amiga's of yesterday. I am glad there is still a large following. It's hard to imagine there would be the same enthusiasm today over the Mac or PC had their time come to an end 15+ years ago.
Well, why do you think there is this enthusiasm for 15+ years old stuff ? Simply because it's been dead for 15+ years... If Apple had been dead since 1994 it would have been the same, probably. If Amiga was alive and had released new hardware, new software since 1995: do you think so many people would still be playing with 15+ years old stuff ? I really don't think so. You're always more attached to dead stuff...
That being said, I'm happy my (so-bloated) OS doesn't crash, at all.
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Well, why do you think there is this enthusiasm for 15+ years old stuff ? Simply because it's been dead for 15+ years... If Apple had been dead since 1994 it would have been the same, probably. If Amiga was alive and had released new hardware, new software since 1995: do you think so many people would still be playing with 15+ years old stuff ? I really don't think so. You're always more attached to dead stuff...
That being said, I'm happy my (so-bloated) OS doesn't crash, at all.
perhaps, it's hard to say for sure. I think Commodore in general (C64 & Amiga) has a special place in the hearts of enthusiasts today who remembered this computer as being unique and ahead of it's time during the mid 80's through the early 90's.
Look at the sky-high prices of some of the used hardware, great new products like the individual ECS and AGA flicker fixers, and a large community support system.
I collect all kinds of classic computers dating back to the 70's. No one is knocking down my door for my TI/99 or my Atari 800. I couldn't give away my Mac classic B&W or the original Compaq lugable.
I've been offered small fortunes for my GVP A530 Turbo and a mint SX-64 with the original software/manuals. I'll generally part with any of my retro collection before giving up the C= goodies. None of those systems captured my enthusiasm at the time as the Commodore computers.
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I think its true. New PCs are the result of what Amiga laid the ground work for...
and if you want to get really technical, Mac filled in for Amiga.
they seem to be one of the "in" computers to use for graphics work, video editing, and music. The only thing they failed to pick up on were all the kickass games.
oh and they are pricey, like Amiga's were, and still are! :)
Either way, wasn't amiga mostly striving for a powerful, multitasking, high end hardware concept that was usable in many fields ranging from home--->commercial stuff?
That's about where todays PC/Mac stuff landed!
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Bloody collectors have been driving the price of everything through the roof, why can they stay with diamond crusted hummel figurines and leave the Amiga alone?
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Yeah, Id like to get a decent A500 or A1200 setup again but frik is that expensive as hell either way.