Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Matt_H on November 15, 2003, 10:53:12 PM
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Went to my local computer store today. They'd just opened up a new barebones section for custom user-built machines.
Off to the side were stacks of pre-built mini-ITX systems. Included motherboards w/ onboard graphics installed in cases. User was to provide drives and CPU. These systems were selling for $250.
Based on rumored prices thus far, I'm worried the A1Lite will have a very hard time making a dent in this market. If I remember, prices quoted thus far were in the $300+ range, without a case. If that figure includes a CPU, then I don't expect much trouble. Otherwise... I'm not too optimistic about massmarket success.
Thoughts?
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agreed it is a highly competative market, the good news is that it does include the CPU (as it is surface mounted in the A1-Lite)
I personally will get the fastest A1-XE i can aforrd :-D
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Well, the $300 mark will be nice.. If they can meet it. I don't think there's been any official word on the price though.
As for the hobbyist market, these boards are probably going to be a tough sell. If someone isn't specifically interested in AOS, they'll probably purchase a cheaper X86 solution.
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@Panthro
No the CPU is not soldered directly onto the A1-lite.
But .....
Those 250$ do include (as I understand) RAM, and the case, while CPUs
(x86) and HDs are real cheap these days. Windows ma also come for free
(well I'm just honest here....), and running Linux would probraly be much
easier on such a sys.
VIA's mini-ITX-boards are really massproduced, and start well under
100$. Just checked, and found with a 1GHz C3-CPU for just 115 Euro,
includeing german vat.
I hardly see how Eyetech could compete with such prices, and how
a 300$ price-tag would allow more than a low-end G3, which wouldn't
be really stomping on the C3, while a G4 might raise the price to the
point where it would have to compete against a board with an Intel-CPU.
And yes a >2GHz Celeron is dirt-cheap, and should run relativly cool.
So, A1-lite will cost more in production (lower numbers), it will use
more expensive CPUs and it will have to carry licence-fees both for
the name and the OS.
Don't see how that could be sold in high-street shops to Joe-6pack.
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Realistically the amiga never has and probably never will compete with x86 systems hardware costs, making comparisons with mini-itx PC costs irrelevent.
Hands up all those amiga users who can honeslty say that the money theyve spent on their amigas (and pegasos even) couldnt have bought them a 'faster' PC?
Yet all we invested in those more expensive, 'slower' systems anyway. Its all about our free choice to do so, because at the end of the day we all know that the amiga is far greater than the sum of it's parts.
We've always done far more with less. In terms of useability, no 486 25MHz on earth can hold a candle to my 040 25MHz powered amiga, even if it was running linux :lol:
What does that say about a 1GHz G4 running OS4?
So what does it matter if the A1lite costs more than a comparable x86 system? A 2GHz celeron being cheaper is totally irrelavent. A Celeron cannot run OS4 or MorphOS, hence will never be in competition with the A1lite, A1, Pegasos etc. so why even bring it up?
As long as it isn't prohibitavely expensive (but fairly and reasonably priced for what it offers) people will buy it.
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@Karlos
Never will be ? Maybe.
Never has ? Sure it did, or how do you think C= sold those millions of A500s ?
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@Kronos
Whether you agree or not, you could buy 286 PCs that were faster than the A500 (in MHz terms) for less than the price of the A500, even then. There were 25MHz systems available for the same price in the A500 heydey, our bloody school bought loads of them (urk!).
No doubt many will say that the A500 was still faster overall because it had a cool design that took the load from the CPU and a vastly superior OS, and I agree 100%.
Which is why I think your previous statements about present amiga/future amiga systems not being cost effective versus PC components of the same performance range is still as irrelavent now as the old 286 v A500 was ;-)
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The C3 1 Ghz CPU is not that robust. A low end G3 (500 Mhz) would be plenty to compete and smoke that turkey.
I owned both. I was creating a ITX fun box but found I wanted something that will sprint, not poke along so I sold Via 10000v Mobo. Currently I am using a 500 Mhz iBook reworked to be a desktop. Small, low power and cool - well as soon as the custom case gets fully completed.
Now, I will be able to have an Amiga fun box ITX machine. It will cost more than a Via but will be able to be a real computer for all things and not just a specialty piece of electronic junk.
:-D
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To bring the 286 up to the Amiga's functionality cost a fair bit. I know, because I had a VGA (er.. MCGA? What was that proto-VGA actually called?) 386 at the time, and a friend's 500 still wowed me. Think of the price of RAM back then, and the OSes available. Heck, remember what GUSes and SB16s went for originally? (This from someone who had to borrow a CD-ROM reader every reinstall of OS/2 until.. oh, 1999 or so.)
That said... beyond the other comparisons, I really think that Radeon is still competetive, *especially* against the S3-derived designs built into the Via chipsets you'll get going with a C3 solution. I could be wrong, though.
Obviously an Athlon64 cube is probably going to be loadable with whatever's peak at the moment, but that's not quite the low-power market, and with the economy turned enough that even a slacker like myself can find a job, the truly interested probably won't have too much trouble affording both. (So in other words, this could top out at roughly the appeal of the iMacs a lot of people got and then relegated to the closet... but there should be fewer excuses to relegate a functional, expandable, Linux-capable PowerPC board to the closet. ;))
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I don't think you're going to be able to fit an Athlon64 plus all its cooling equipment into one of those neat little mini ITX cases. I know that AMD has been talking about low-power designs, but I don't think the current Athlon64s or Opterons are part of that plan. Maybe the next generation?
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I don't think you're going to be able to fit an Athlon64 plus all its cooling equipment into one of those neat little mini ITX cases. I know that AMD has been talking about low-power designs, but I don't think the current Athlon64s or Opterons are part of that plan. Maybe the next generation?
@CodeSmit
You cannot make the Intel family run cool, it just won't do it, you also have all that legacy design, plus one way or another in the end the Intel type overclocked CISC design will have to go.
As we all know Windoze is slow and unreliable and not likely to get better.
But the most important thing is that people know more about computers now than they did even ten years ago, idiot suits can no longer run to an IBM design because it is deemed the only safe course (as they once did in their thousands "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" ).
The fioal price matters, but not as much as some would think. Early purchases pay more for getting ahead quicker, latter ones save a bit of money but then need to run to catch up.
Has it got a market, indeed the A1 and OS4.0 - well I think it has, history has a way of catching up - the thing to remember is that INTEL/WINDOZE IS A DEAD END - it is not the same story as it was a decade or more ago.
What will be increasingly apparent is that in terms of a mass CPU market the PPC design is well ahead (not denying there are better CPUs) . Here the Linux family have the server side already established, MacOSx has a place, but a suped up "volkswagen" OS like Amiga is already in a good position to take a lead.
You only have to think a few years ahead and Windoze/Intel looks already dead - after all like George W Bush where can they go after the mess they have made for themselves?
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I don't think you're going to be able to fit an Athlon64 plus all its cooling equipment into one of those neat little mini ITX cases.
The closest to ITX would be SFF. Note that they manage to fit in the cooling devices in an Athlon 64-M 3000+ laptops.
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@GregS
You cannot make the Intel family run cool, it just won't do it,
Recall Intel’s “Pentium M” for thin and light markets.
you also have all that legacy design, plus one way or another in the end the Intel type overclocked CISC design will have to go.
One of the key aspects of RISC is the fix length instructions.
Ever since the AMD's K6 processor, X86 variable length instructions is decoded/translated to fix length instructions.
X86 legacy support (a.k.a software investment protection) is actually the boat anchor for the current situation.
As we all know Windoze is slow and unreliable and not likely to get better.
Relative to what?
Has it got a market, indeed the A1 and OS4.0 - well I think it has, history has a way of catching up - the thing to remember is that INTEL/WINDOZE IS A DEAD END
Realistically, it would take more than just A1 and OS4.0 to reenter the mainstream PC market i.e. software.
Both Microsoft and Intel still dominate the desktop PC market. Even without Intel there’s always AMD, Transmeta and VIA to take the slack. Microsoft still has non-X86 Windows editions for expansion.
“Software investment protection” is a powerful aspect for the current situation. Even the might of Intel has not significantly move the market to non-X86 solution.
What will be increasingly apparent is that in terms of a mass CPU market the PPC design is well ahead (not denying there are better CPUs) .
Note that PowerPC 970’s transistors count is similar to Athlon XP (Barton core).
Here the Linux family have the server side already established,
Mostly X86 Linux distros i.e. Linux X86 edition has the ability to leverage the influential “Software investment protection” aspect e.g. WINE/WINEX/VMWARE.
MacOSx has a place,
Barely 2.5 percent of the desktop PC market.
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@Hammer - so let me summize - on OS which nobody loves (Windoze) which has never worked well and has always been sluggish, running on a hot-chip design is nevertheless unbeatable?
The Mac has a place - as 2.5 % - well that is a place, I am not supposing it to hugely grow, that is why I mentioned it in passing.
I just don't understand the logic, just where and how do you propose Windoze moves in the future - each move destroys its immense base. At this stage the biggest liabilty it has is its own "success" - it has no choice it cannot easily transform itself as an OS or its chip dependences. all it can do is add more bells and whistles.
Mac bit the bullet (finnally) and remerged as Mac OSx and in doing so fragmnted even its tiny market share - do you think MS could do a similar thing and not fall apart at the seams.
This is partly about timing and partly about the evolution of the whole industry. This period represents the stasis that the industry has been in for almost 10 years. Except that 10 years has passed and computer use has become ubiquitous - it is not more of the same for ever and ever the effects are accumulative and only one part of this is the technology itself.
The fact is that people have had a gut full of MS, anything that looks half good at the moment has a running chance - in my opinion the A1 and OS4.0 look a lot better than Half-good!.
At some point (and my analysis is that this is rapidly approaching) the elastic band breaks. Then a lot tumbles into the dustbin of history, including MS.
From your comments it seems that you have the idea that things just keep on going on, that MS by some act of God has already planned an escape route and that the right time old Billy-boy will make his move - while I am saying he has no move to make, anything he does do will virtually be a change in the OS and then why stick with Billy's Brew when so many sweeter drops are available,
MS is dead - its just that it has a livily corpse.
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@Karlos
Seems like you are comparing 1990-prices .....
Do you know what a measly 286-8MHz did cost in 1987 ?
Well over 5000DM, and the A500 was only 1400DM, add a A590 20MB to
it and you wouls still be well below 5000.
And than you had a PC that was slower (sorry but the 286 wasn't anything
hot), and only had a Herkules-monochrom GFX-card.
A 386SX-16 (which was about on par with an A500+HD) did cost over 3000
when I bought my A500 for 800 in 1990, so there would have been enough
"space" for a cheap controller plus HD.
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@Hammer - so let me summize - on OS which nobody loves (Windoze) which has never worked well ?
"Love" is not an intangible/rational factor.
To illustrate an example, i.e. it works well enough and earning sustainable cash flow for www.locus.com.au**, solution6.com.au**, myob.com.au** and 'etc'.
and has always been sluggish,
Please quantify “Sluggish”.
running on a hot-chip design is nevertheless unbeatable?
Note that MS Windows NT 4.0(up to SP3) runs PowerPC.
I just don't understand the logic, just where and how do you propose Windoze moves in the future - each move destroys its immense base.
In regards to “Windoze moves in the future - each move destroys its immense base”, have you tried MS Windows Longhorn** X86-32 build 40xx or have you tried MS Windows XP AMD64 Edition** (with WOW64)?
**Beta releases.
Within these product scope, the legacy (includes skills, tool chain, development and etc) is mostly preserved. Other Windows editions are an extension to the main product lines.
Note that MS has VirtualPC and FX32 style technology (via Intel) for future non-X86 Windows XP and Server editions.
Mac bit the bullet (finnally) and remerged as Mac OSx and in doing so fragmnted even its tiny market share - do you think MS could do a similar thing and not fall apart at the seams.
Unlike Apple, DotNET framework and VirtualPC technology is designed to unify the code base.
The fact is that people have had a gut full of MS, anything that looks half good at the moment has a running chance
IF that was the realistic case then the OS/2 Warp 4.5 with Win32 compatibility(via third party add-on) may have a chance for a come back. But sadly, this is not the case.
in my opinion the A1 and OS4.0 look a lot better than Half-good!.
In regards to “looks”, an integrated DirOpus 5 with AOS4.0 style icon bar per windows would have been nice i.e. integrating some modern GUI elements.
Secondly, one of the main problems with AOS is its middleware support for application development.
From your comments it seems that you have the idea that things just keep on going on, that MS by some act of God has already planned an escape route and that the right time old Billy-boy will make his move
I’m still waiting for a creditable catalyst for change.
MS is dead - its just that it has a livily corpse.
Such statement is in the realms of "reality distortion field" (TM).
To ram my point through;
Can AOS4.0 match Windows and Sound Storm/SB Audigy 2 ZS software suite?
Can AOS4.0 match DirectX 9.0b?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OBDC functionality?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OLE functionality?
Is Oracle 9i available for AOS (middleware issues)?
Are there object oriented case tools for AOS?
Are there object oriented visual development environment for AOS (in the level Borland C Builder/J Builder/Delphi/Visual Studio dotNET 2003)?
Is there even a fully implemented Java VM for AOS?
Is there a Windows 2003 Server** level based on AOS? (**near brain dead server maintenance)
Can AOS deliver multi-user support?
Can AOS deliver roaming profiles?
Can AOS drive wireless LAN?
Should I add some more?
Amiga doesn’t need to compete with Windows/X86 Linux i.e. Alan’s “leisure computing” targeted market should be satisfactory enough.
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@Hammer
To ram my point through;
Can AOS4.0 match Windows and Sound Storm/SB Audigy 2 ZS software suite?
Can AOS4.0 match DirectX 9.0b?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OBDC functionality?
Can AOS4.0 match Windows’s OLE functionality?
Is Oracle 9i available for AOS (middleware issues)?
Are there object oriented case tools for AOS?
Are there object oriented visual development environment for AOS (in the level Borland C Builder/J Builder/Delphi/Visual Studio dotNET 2003)?
Is there even a fully implemented Java VM for AOS?
Is there a Windows 2003 Server** level based on AOS? (**near brain dead server maintenance)
Can AOS deliver multi-user support?
Can AOS deliver roaming profiles?
Can AOS drive wireless LAN?
Should I add some more?
Amiga doesn’t need to compete with Windows/X86 Linux i.e. Alan’s “leisure computing” targeted market should be satisfactory enough.
Well obviously not. But is there any reason why this is fundementally beyond the Amiga? Did you think what I was saying meant that Windoze would be dropped just because OS4.0 was released?
My point is that MS has no future despite its apparent strength. On the otherhand amiga is tight and light, robust and (hopefully) very stable.
The future, recompiling the amiga on Taos, is something of a permanent solution for software development.
It may not be the Amiga, my point was that MS is in a historic fix and over the next period the opportunity to shove it into the dustbin is already here.
Amiga doesn’t need to compete with Windows/X86 Linux i.e. Alan’s “leisure computing” targeted market should be satisfactory enough.
Yes it need not compete - that is the point surely. It need not compete because the problem is with MS, so long as the new Amiga exists, so long as it can be seen for what it is - that is enough to begin with. The dissatisfaction with MS is also there, so part of this is resolved over time without head to head competition taking place at all.
Remember also the whole small personal computer thing started within the "leasure computing" market - starting there does not mean ending there.
"Love" is not an intangible/rational factor.
Well how about hate - that is how I would describe the MS experience in terms of those that have to use it (I am talking of people who have never heard of the Amiga and barely know the Mac exists). Intangible, perhaps - irrational - I don't think so.
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Kronos wrote:
@Karlos
Seems like you are comparing 1990-prices .....
Possibly. I think it was 1989 when they bought those damn 286s. They were 25MHz systems IIRC (maybe 20?)
And than you had a PC that was slower (sorry but the 286 wasn't anything
hot), and only had a Herkules-monochrom GFX-card.
I know. I said they were faster in CPU terms (the systems our school got I mean), not prettier.
Its an irrelavent argument, you see, just like comaring the price/preformance of the A1Lite to x86 based ITX systems :-)
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If someone can get a 1Ghz PPC Mini-ITX out of the door for about £100, then they have a good chance...
My £70 800Mhz C3 based Mini-ITX really does rock!!! I was really expencting the worst, but in terms of performance it (PhotoShop testing) keeps up with my cousin's 600Mhz G3 Mac no problems.
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The A500 "smoked" the PC for only a very short
time, I remember playing Dune 2 on my friends
286 w/VGA and SB, the graphics and CD speech/
music BLEW AWAY the A500 version royally...
at that time (early 90's) even owners of high-
spec amigas got the shaft in comparison to
comparable PC/Mac game titles. Lower resolutions,
crappy sound, etc.
And from my recollection a "usable" PC was
way more expensive than any A500.
--edit--
The point: The price will have to be cut way
down for the "mainstream" to even consider
it. Most of my friends remember the amiga
(circa early 90's) as a slow, overpriced
machine with poor support and crappy game
conversions...the last thing they will do is
scream "OMG" and dump $1000 on an A1 'lite'
setup.
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remember that those via x86 cpus are dead slow even comparing to a g3.. a g4 clocked at same speed will be way faster
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Tomas wrote:
remember that those via x86 cpus are dead slow even comparing to a g3.. a g4 clocked at same speed will be way faster
Seriously, they are not as bad as you think! :-)
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Well obviously not. But is there any reason why this is fundementally beyond the Amiga?
In regards to light weight OS, one can apply a similar reasoning to Microsoft (e.g. Windows XP Embedded) .
Amiga’s “fundamental” issues are not the real issues. The real issues are the matter of economics (includes market*) issues.
*National issues in some countries i.e Japan, South Korea, China, European Union, Russia and ‘etc’ (the list is made up of basically the countries who missed out of the Information Revolution).
My point is that MS has no future despite its apparent strength.
“To control the future one has to control the present”.
On the otherhand amiga is tight and light, robust and (hopefully) very stable.
Stability is usually proportional to the features it provides.
The future, recompiling the amiga on Taos, is something of a permanent solution for software development.
Do they have a reasonable level of Integrated Development Environment?
Do they have a reasonable level of middleware support and ecosystems?
Note that the distribution dotNET framework is now here. Could you point me to the download of runtime ecosystem for the competing product?
It may not be the Amiga, my point was that MS is in a historic fix and over the next period the opportunity to shove it into the dustbin is already here.
Define "here". The market doesn’t like empty void.
The world operated without MS’s market domination a few years ago, thus there’s nothing new under the sun.
Well how about hate - that is how I would describe the MS experience in terms of those that have to use it
The some reasoning can be applied on all operating system products. No operating system is perfect. It’s a matter economics and dollar signs.
To illustrate an example with Linux i.e. dependency issues and flawed driver modelling. Needs a higher competency skills to maintain this particular solution.
(I am talking of people who have never heard of the Amiga and barely know the Mac exists). Intangible, perhaps - irrational - I don't think so.
Have you done a statistical count? Have you done any SWOT analysis on other Operating Systems?
In regards X86 (due the inclusion of Intel into the discussion); does hate automatically equates to hatred of X86?
IF they hate the said product why don’t they buy/ switch completely to another alternative product? Nothing is stoping them in downloading/purchasing SUSE Linux, Lindows 4.0, Mandrake Linux, MorphOS, OS/2 Warp 4.5, BeOS, MacOS X, QNX, OpenBSD, NetBSD and ‘etc’.
Just don’t complain about the lack/little of vertical and horizontal market support, lack of driver support, lack/little of entrainment/application/development titles, incompatible hardware and 'etc'.
Changing the “real world” is a lot harder than changing the “reality distortion field”.
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@Hammer
Changing the “real world” is a lot harder than changing the “reality distortion field”.
We seem to be at almighty cross purposes - I am saying that MS is in a blind ally because of its size and domination. That like the last remaining super-power they have nothing to transform themselves into, that despite their strength they have no future.
I am not saying that Amiga is going to be the wave of the future, but that wave is certainly already on its way and Amiga happens to be in a good position.
China has not only rejected MS, but gone for a form of Linux and the PPC, Russia and Eastern Europe are almost Linux by default (server wise anyhow).
Far from missing the information revolution, they are in a position to reap much of the benefit without being caught up in the expensive MS merry-go-round (and it is very expensive, suit-driven and unproductive).
You have to see this as an unfolding thing not a given. Where China goes, the rest of Asia will follow, so to I think the whole of Eastern Europe. They are set to gain the benefits of the new wave of technology precisely because they lagged behind on the first (a far from unusual circumstance in history I may add).
As for the Taos solution, the plan, I believe is to develop AmigaOS up until not only is it all written in vanilla C but that it has precsiely the development tools, drivers etc that allow it to be verstile in the context of this next wave of technologicasl innovation ---- then I believe, the plan is to recompile the whole thing within Taos a processor agnostic system which has the virtue, because of level of abstraction, of keeping software permanently available regardless of processor technology or indeed OS development.
Please get the big picture. For the next big move is not away from X86, but away from processor dependence. PPC offers a stepping stone no-more, and I would say the same for Linux.
The first step is to break away from the money pit that is MS development and maintenence. In short, business that is doing well with this setup will be the last to change, it is the businesses that cannot afford, or find MS a woeful drain on resources, that will be sniffing out alternatives when they become viable, technically, financially and have created a level of expertise (ie amongst kids, hobbyists and the like).
The meaning of revolution being to overturn, not the result of winning in head to head competition.
I was there for the first computer revolution to PCs, I know that business went with IBM/MS/Intel out of fear, and false economies. Ironically the hopelessness of the OS, the incrediable bad design of the PC and the make it faster attitude of Intel all combined to create an explosion in demand for better hardware - just to make the OS and its programs appear half-useful.
The level of hardware development is completely out of wack with the OS and program environment. Hardware is flying to the moon while the OS/program environment glides along in wooden sailing ships. As I said history has the habit of catching up with itself.
Put all this together, the China move, the inroads Linux is making at the perifery, the growing prominance of PPC architecture (especially when linked to China), the be-suited expensive and haphazard MS world in general, the squeezing out of small developers the lack of software innovation as a whole. Then you don't have to be Nostrodamus to read the future (whatever you control in the present).
A revolution in technology is not just a revolution in technology but also a change in who is doing what and how they are doing it. Tens of thousands of talented programmers either cannot get a job, or have a job where they do nothing but hack work, 100s of thousands of would be no-professional programmers are shut out of doing anything substantial on MS (because of the way MS has structured the "market"). Meanwhile 100s thousands of businesses are dependant on computers which are costly to maintain and unreliable. Likewise a sizable part of planet is ready for the information revelution but has been effectively locked out by MS.
Just how do you read this as putting MS in a good long term position - I don't, hence I am happy to announce it a zombie (the walking dead). There is nothing it can do, no rabbits it can pull out of the hat, no matter how fast and small, that are not immediately bogged-down in the quagmire that is MS - it is a economic question, MS will hold on tightly to anything which is good until it has strangled it - it cannot do anything else - it is simply to big and rapacious to do anything else (a bit like the Bushite US really).
Greg Schofield, Canberra Australia
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just read that someone said something about an itx for under 100 quid .., just wnted to say that its more than likely such will never be the pricing of an a1 or an pegasos , sure its sad but wont happen unless a real market evolves and if that will happen..i have my doubts..
i dont even think we will see an a1 micro for under 300 quid.
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@lempkee I agree that we won't see one for a good long while, a new market is however developing and when it does then things may shift down quite a bit.
China is going PPC and at this moment the microA1 is I think the only itx in existence, the A1 itself is one of only a small number of PPC boards about and the Chinese will not be buying any of them until the price is competative. However, IBM is out on a limb and the dollar signs are ever-present with the size of the potenmtial China Market - major shifts are due - perhaps Amiga will ride the wind when they come (we are talking of less than 5 years).
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China has not only rejected MS, but gone for a form of Linux and the PPC, Russia and Eastern Europe are almost Linux by default (server wise anyhow).
Such case is not abnormal since a couple of years ago government entities was with Unix. There’s still heavy piracy rates for Windows in the countries mentioned.
Now some statistics...
Refer
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7483572763.html
Far from missing the information revolution, they are in a position to reap much of the benefit without being caught up in the expensive MS merry-go-round (and it is very expensive, suit-driven and unproductive).
Open Source is a quick way to catch up with information oriented nations due to the free use of labour.
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China is going PPC
If that's true why have they just spent the last few months wooing AMD and the Athlon64?
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As for the Taos solution, the plan, I believe is to develop AmigaOS up until not only is it all written in vanilla C but that it has precsiely the development tools, drivers etc that allow it to be verstile in the context of this next wave of technologicasl innovation ---- then I believe, the plan is to recompile the whole thing within Taos a processor agnostic system which has the virtue, because of level of abstraction, of keeping software permanently available regardless of processor technology or indeed OS development.
Such a solution will be competing with MONO**(OpenSourced dotNET) developments. **Available for Win32 and Linux.
Please get the big picture. For the next big move is not away from X86, but away from processor dependence. PPC offers a stepping stone no-more, and I would say the same for Linux.
For embedded processor statistics refer to
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7301151332.html
"What we see here, is x86 in first place and ARM in second -- both growing, but with x86 maintaining a 9% lead over ARM. Incidentally, "ARM" includes Intel's highly popular StrongARM and XScale processors."
Rankings
1. X86, 1st position with 2nd growth rate.
2. ARM, 2nd position with 1st growth rate.
3. PPC, 3rd position with 3rd growth rate.
Current situation in X86 and ARM is closely linked to Intel’s market power**.
Just how do you read this as putting MS in a good long term position - I don't, hence I am happy to announce it a zombie (the walking dead).
Refer to http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7483572763.html
That is; "VDC finds Microsoft, Wind River in "dead heat" as #1 embedded OS". Windows CE is now an open source development…
Put all this together, the China move, the inroads Linux is making at the perifery, the growing prominance of PPC architecture (especially when linked to China),
China’s long term desire would be their MIPs based processor.
the be-suited expensive and haphazard MS world in general, the squeezing out of small developers the lack of software innovation as a whole
MS has not squeezed out small developers i.e. refer to IE6’s third party licensees**…
Note that Apple has developed their own media player and web browser in their MacOS X. The only difference is that Apple’s OS not running the dominant HW platform.
**Help -> About Internet Explorer.
As for lack innovation issue. Plenty of OS vendors would be guilty of this
1. MacOS X's kernal is BSD based.
2. MacOS's GUI is based on Xerox's WIMP concepts.
3. Amiga's Workbench is based on Xerox's WIMP concepts.
4. Linux, *nix like OS for i386 - Paraphrase from Linus i.e. the purpose of Linux.
5. MorphOS, a clone of AOS.
Microsoft’s main innovation is opening up the HW PC market for clones.
"There is nothing it can do, no rabbits it can pull out of the hat, no matter how fast and small, that are not immediately bogged-down in the quagmire that is MS"
Refer to open sourced "Windows CE"...
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@Bloodline:
I think it's too early to tell what China really wants. Just a few months ago they were all about their homegrown Dragon CPU, more recently we've heard Alan's story of how interested in PPC they are and we've also had reports, as you said, of their interest in 64 bit Wintel chips (I've also heard they're looking at Itanic2). I think they basically want to see how to best grow their IT infrastructure, since they're effectively going from zero, and they don't want to discount anything. Very smart move, I think.
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@Hammer we may have started off at odds, but I think we might be going in the same direction after-all.
Catching-up is a very powerful force, and yes open source for a number of reasons (free labour and localization/adaption being prime) is a much better option if you are in the position of say China.
A whole set of different dynamics begins. I do not think that Opensource is any sort of long term solution, but it is the right solution for places like China in the immediate future.
I would also say that I undrstand why China is leaning so heavily to PPC. If Intel gained a foothold, the piracy of MS would force it to become its prisoner. The Chinese leadership may be accused of many things, but stupidity is not one of them.
Besides which the cost factor is enormous, hot X86 chips in server farms means that the airconditioning costs alone far outwiegh the cost benefits on the chips themselves. Besides which the G3 is an ideal CPU for using in a wide number of settings and the bonus that a server farm of these could be maintained easily with a domestic air-conditioner stuck in a window.
In fact multi-processing with G3 must have a lot of attractions once this aspect gets nailed down.
Things like .NET are most unattractive to nations building up the infrastructure in communications - for the medium term anything like this in no future at all.
Hammer, I think in all this the Amiga is sitting pretty, it may not be a "cert" but it is fair bet. Linux is not I think what you would really want in say China when the bus ticket sales become computerisied, or the train signals etc. then you want some small and relaiable, easy to understand OS by an IT section that learnt most of its skills on-the-job.
The time scale I would use is that the signs of major change will be seen within 5 years and within 10 years the foundations for the next wave will be laid - the only thing I find unimaginable is that MS will be anything other than a footnote in the history of computing.
And let us not forget the rest of Asia, EurAsia and India much the same pressures that China is under hold for them as well.
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If that's true why have they just spent the last few months wooing AMD and the Athlon64?
@bloodline
I am sure they are wooing every CPU manufacturer in the world, but as far as I can see it will be an arranged marriage. China will go for a stable of CPUs but what they require above all that in that stable there is a good hack which runs cool and is up to doing everything and is very very potentially cheap - the G3 fits the bill while G4-G5 fits the rest quiet nicely.
If you are going to have any leverage then you need to play all your cards.
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Besides which the cost factor is enormous, hot X86 chips in server farms means that the airconditioning costs alone far outwiegh the cost benefits on the chips themselves.(SNIP)
Tell that to IBM’s Power4. As for "thin and light" X86 refer to Pentium M blades....
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Tell that to IBM’s Power4. As for "thin and light" X86 refer to Pentium M blades....
@Hammer.
I don't know how to make this any clearer - China will not be going down any path that even gets them close to useing MS - they are not mad. If its X86 then it doesn't matter if it runs ice-cold and is fast as light - the Chinese will not have a bar of it.
Reduce the CPUs by this factor and then they either go for one of their own (I don't think this will be the case) or what?
But if your content to play selective quotes then go for it - say I contradict myself by also argueing that even though a X86 may be cooler it still is not in the running.
The Chinese have made it pretty clear that they do not want, nor can they afford, to go into MSes pocket. Using any form of X86, in short anything compatible to MS would in effect give their technological policies over to Billy Gates - and they ain't going to do it.
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The Chinese have made it pretty clear that they do not want, nor can they afford, to go into MSes pocket. Using any form of X86, in short anything compatible to MS would in effect give their technological policies over to Billy Gates - and they ain't going to do it.
You really think they care that much? The computer world is driven by one concept; Cheap and powerfull... that is all.
Why the hell did you buy an Amiga in the first place? I'm sure it wasn't the promise of being a computer outcast in ten years? No it was because it was the most powerful thing you could get for the price (that's why I bought one anyway).
If China did "go their own way", then MIPS would be by far the best option. I believe their Dragon is a MIPS based design.
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On the issue of Windows' and the x86 ISA's future?
Well, looking at M$'s intentions to use IBM processor tech in Xbox2, perhaps M$ will use Xbox2 to leverage a position in the PPC market? More likely though, is that PPC fits better into console architecture.
In the near future, I wouldn't be too surprised if the home PC as we currently know it doesnt exist. Replaced by simpler "black box" hybrid console systems.
Given the choice, the average person would opt for a very low cost game/communications/entertainment hub that just works, over current, more tempramental hardware solutions.
Just ask Sony and M$, they're both onto the idea...
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You really think they care that much? The computer world is driven by one concept; Cheap and powerfull... that is all.
@bloodline
Actually I think they care a great deal indeed, their future depends on making the right choice and as I keep saying their political leadership may be accused of a lot of things but not stupidity. They know they are standing on the breach of truely major change and they do not want to stuff things up.
They will steer a middle course, settle on a technology which is connected to the rest of world but does not make them subject to the whims of others. Dragon was something they did precisely to show their independence and it will be kept in reserve.
Their problems are not the same as the "wests" they need something which can operate reliably in a small village with a generator as well as something powerful enough to be used as server farm. They will avoid the top-end of advanced design and go for something which is already in ordinary use and it will not be X86.
They are not just looking for a good chip design, but as I said before a stable of chips which already have the manufacturing capacity to feed their market while not dominating other aspects of use.
They will be going Linux, especially if the Japanese have anything to do with it and Koreans and Twainese are likewise minded. They also see this is a contest with the US and MS as part of that. While they are looking at building a very Asian basis for future technology growth.
You have to take everything into account, and when you do things narrow down a hell of a lot.
By the way, I bought my first Amiga because of the AREXX ports and the multi-tasking the A500 looked like a processing whimp compared to the mighty early Mac it stood next to, then A3000 when it was new and the new MacII still did a little better in processing speed - I sold the MacII , I did not sell the A3000 - when it broke I went to a PC to bide my time (my new A1 G4 arrives this week).
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The new Amiga has to do three things to have a market for itself..
1) Attract New Users
2) Offer Applications on par with industry standard ones
3) Offer unique capabilities
Debating the OS or what processor instruction set is present and if Bill Gates is involved or not really misses the point.. China is a technology leader in the world market. If they can do their own manned spacecraft they can certainly do their own computing architecture, in both software and hardware. I expect China to "go their own way" as they continue to do in everything else.
I bought my Amiga not because of "power without the price" (that's an atari concept). I bought it for it's animation, desktop video, and unique applications. So far I can't always see those things in the new Amiga, just a familiar OS. Time will tell though..
-Don
PS to all the Windows haters out there.. Windows has done one thing really smart with the move to .net, they can support different target processors (thanks to the Common Language Runtime) and Direct X is such a complete solution for media. If multimedia gets more integrated with the Windows UI such as it is with longhorn (see lapping along longhorn video (http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdntv/episode.aspx?xml=episodes/en/20031028LHORNDB/manifest.xml) then the Amiga has a chance of keeping up.. You should watch the video and tell me if the Amiga can do this..
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Debating the OS or what processor instruction set is present and if Bill Gates is involved or not really misses the point.
@DonnyEMU good points and I will cease and desist.
I do think the new Amiga will have little difficulty in attracting new users (not a deluge but a steady stream), Real3D and Pagestream are a really good start on the applications front, but only a start.
It may be a little while before unique capabilities are developed - but I can say without hestitation that developers will love the "write crash log" of the "Grim Reaper" it will save a huge amount in support and debugging (just do it again and this time write the "crash log" and email it).
My hope is in XML developments because some sort of parser is already apart of the OS - I think a new breed of integrated word processors is not too far away, XML signatures and file keeping and a whole lot of other housekeeping potential is possible just because of this one thing (not that XML is new but integrated directly into the OS is).
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In the next Windows there is a new Windows GUI (presentation) system language called XAML Application Markup Language).. The code for creating a windows interface is now XML based..
Here's some example code taken from a MSDN article MSDN XAML article (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnfoghorn/html/foghorn10272003.asp)
xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/2003/xaml"
xmlns:def="Definition"
def:Class="Application3.Window1"
Text="My Three Rectangles">
and the app it produces..
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnfoghorn/html/foghorn10272003-fig03.gif)
I think XML offers us all great opportunities for the future. I want to see this type of thing not just in windows but other OSes (Amiga, BeOS, SkyOS, etc. even linux kiddos)..
XAML is a great idea..
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@DonnyEMU, yes this is the stuff that excites me (XAML or XUL) along with all the rest of XML.
I would love to talk about the effects this has on application development especially the fragmentation of applications and mega-applications. Of course it needs a good simple script language to hold it all together (I see SHEEP as a natural successor to AREXX, but AREXX could do the trick).
One of the things which most excites me is an end to off-theshelf-one-size-fits-all applications and the fashioning of task orientated interfaces designed by "advanced" users.
The relationship between the GUI, GUI manager, GUI description, Scripting Glue and compiled code is a very exciting one - let alone that the data itself can be marked-up in the same language (cross purpose editors are something even mor exciting).
I was suggesting such a thing to Amiga Inc sometime ago, but it is still early days. I am a great believer in in generalisied code fragments organisied through a seperate GUI interface as a way of remodeling the relationship between developer and end-user.
.NET solutions have hit on what needs to be done, except without the "net" part - but then old Billy wants his control and thats the hidden anchor in this. But I agree wholeheartedly this is definitely the way to go.
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Getting back to the original question of this thread, yes I do think the A1 lite will be commercially viable. At the moment, the A1 Lite will have most, if not all, of the capabilities of the A1. Frankly I would rather have an A1 Lite because it is so much smaller. Not only does it seem to fit in the historical line up like an A500/600/1200, but it is still processor upgradable. The only disadvantage from my point of view is that you can't upgrade the graphics chip. Still, even a PPC G3/Radeon 7000 based unit is so far ahead of the hardware that I have in my current A3000 Amigas, that I get a smaller and more powerful box that should have far more capability than an Amiga I have ever owned.
On top of that, it is a very viable set up for anyone wanting to do a kiosk type setup. It should also be very stable and inexpensive to run in the long term. So yes, I think the A1 Lite is a viable machine for the market.
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@GregS, DonnyEMU:
Comparing the AmigaOS to Longhorn and its API to .NET ( and especially Avalon - the next one, which can do much more than DonnyEMU pointed out ) isn't really fair :-)
When I saw Longhorn Alpha and the next WinFX technologies in action, it was slugish, buggy, but very nice to develop on (.NET framework 2.0 - Whidbey, etc).
re
Treke
But from the users point of view there is little what you can feel from 1st touch: The UI of Longhorn is rewritten using DirectX (i.e vector graphics, quite impressive), that's all.
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by Prmetime on 2003/11/17 9:14:10
Getting back to the original question of this thread, yes I do think the A1 lite will be commercially viable.
Unless they can make it cost competive with the other mini-itx mobos, it's DOA. OS4's market is way too tiny to support it and A1. Yes, it could be sold to Linux/BSD guys, but those folks will go the cheapest route.
On top of that, it is a very viable set up for anyone wanting to do a kiosk type setup. It should also be very stable and inexpensive to run in the long term. So yes, I think the A1 Lite is a viable machine for the market.
Cutting OS4's cost out of the mini-A1, for Kiosk, does it still be competitive with VIA's
MiniITX (http://www.shentech.com/viaepviac3eb.html)? I don't think so with the latter running all sorts of *nix and AROS. ;)
Dammy
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don't know how to make this any clearer - China will not be going down any path that even gets them close to useing MS - they are not mad. If its X86 then it doesn't matter if it runs ice-cold and is fast as light - the Chinese will not have a bar of it.
Their action speaks for themselves in that regard e.g. AMD64 and MIPS and ‘etc’. I’m sure the Chinese can separate the HW and OS after all the Linux’s home HW is the X86.
It’s a matter of economics i.e. MS’s stuff is expensive but the hardware is not.
Reduce the CPUs by this factor and then they either go for one of their own (I don't think this will be the case) or what?
Again, why did they invested on AMD64 based supercomputer?
But if your content to play selective quotes then go for it - say I contradict myself by also argueing that even though a X86 may be cooler it still is not in the running.
Refer to the statistics and trends.
The Chinese have made it pretty clear that they do not want, nor can they afford, to go into MSes pocket. Using any form of X86, in short anything compatible to MS would in effect give their technological policies over to Billy Gates - and they ain't going to do it.
Again, I’m sure the Chinese can separate the HW and OS issues. The Chinese is not that stupid. Its wouldn’t take much for MS to port a Windows NT variant for PowerPC platform i.e. the Windows NT code base for PowerPC is already finished. A new HAL would be needed for Windows NT 4.0 to work on the current PowerPC based platforms. Another MS’s service e.g. WDM (part of NT5.X), DirectX and dotNET can be back ported to that HW platform. PowerPC wouldn’t be the insurance to keep MS at bay (refer to X-BOX 2).
Open sourced Windows CE for PowerPC would be another possibility.
Clues for the future PowerPC/X-BOX 2 and more Windows CE/PowerPC info refer to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/Embedded/ce.NET/evaluation/hardware/processors.asp
A game bias Windows CE variant was running on Sega Dreamcast’s SH4 processor.
Sources for Windows CE and PowerPC tool kits
http://www.apogee.com/windows_ce_toolkits.html
http://www.microsoft.com/catalog/display.asp?subid=22&site=763
; Microsoft® Windows® CE Toolkit for Visual Basic® 6.0 (PowerPC support is included).
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coldfish wrote:
On the issue of Windows' and the x86 ISA's future?
Well, looking at M$'s intentions to use IBM processor tech in Xbox2, perhaps M$ will use Xbox2 to leverage a position in the PPC market? More likely though, is that PPC fits better into console architecture.
In the near future, I wouldn't be too surprised if the home PC as we currently know it doesnt exist. Replaced by simpler "black box" hybrid console systems.
Given the choice, the average person would opt for a very low cost game/communications/entertainment hub that just works, over current, more tempramental hardware solutions.
Just ask Sony and M$, they're both onto the idea...
Note that Windows CE is already running on low end PowerPC processors. We also know that Sega’s Dreamcast was powered by a game tweaked Windows CE (with PowerVR GPU/~DirectX6**) on SH4 platform.
**or equivalent to DirectX6.
Reference;
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/Embedded/ce.NET/evaluation/hardware/processors.asp#PowerPC
One can see the potential of the X-BOX 2 on the PowerPC. There’s nothing new in MS OS running PowerPC**. **Not factoring Windows NT 4.0(SP3) PowerPC Edition.
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@GregS
Some statistics regarding Windows, Linux and X86 refer to http://www.etmag.com/publication/magazine/2003-10/27-1.htm
"X86 server sales drive Western European server market"
"Both Windows and Linux continued to grow strongly - benefiting from their association with the x86 server market. Windows continues to command the lion's share of the unit market with 59.3%, while Linux has risen to 16.3% share".
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@DonnyEMU:
I disagree - XAML is basically a progression of DHTML, which means it's yet another huge MS security hole waiting to happen. Sure, on the local machine it's a great idea, but how long before we see XAML support built into Outlook?
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I see XAML as a progression of XML.. As far as security holes go have you noticed that this stuff gets compiled? You really need to take a better look at the technology before commenting on it and making such statements and look into how it handles transactional processing (which I didn't even go near in the example).
The reality of this is, that anytime you give users any kind of OS extendibility there is going to be option for security holes. We could talk about Amiga and it's file permissions or the fact that the Amiga was the first computer I had ever seen that got a virus.
Nothing ever is totally secure and if it is, it's probably useless. What I have learned with computers is that there where there is a will there is a way to "exploit" security... Whether it be linux windows amiga or any platform.
The idea of making a UI totally programmable as "objects" is a great idea.. I look forward to XAML support in Outlook or whatever.. I also look forward to the new "longhorn" role based permissions and security model which you really haven't put the two together and you should before making such comments..
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Karlos wrote:
I know. I said they were faster in CPU terms (the systems our school got I mean), not prettier.
Its an irrelavent argument, you see, just like comaring the price/preformance of the A1Lite to x86 based ITX systems :-)
But the thing is that nowadays, an x86 system will beat the Amiga price/performancewise both in terms of raw CPU power *and* graphics (and just about everything else besides), where as with the A500 it was a case of having better graphics for the price.
I agree that a machine can still have a market even if it's more expensive, but it's not true that the Amiga has always been in this position.
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Yes, but it doesnt matter a rats bumhole if x86 cant run OS4 / MOS, does it?
-edit-
blimey, how far back up the thread was that anyway? :lol:
aslo I should say that for me, it was never the better CPU/graphics capabilities. I got my 1200 in 1993 - for me I got a "less powerful" piece of hardware (considering I could have gotten a 386DX/VGA for the same price) that ran a far more efficient and fun OS...
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@DonnyEMU
Interesting. Nice to see that Windows may finally catch up with what MUI was doing ten years ago. I much prefer having a GUI that has a sensible layout system, without expecting me as the programmer to specify x/y coordinates for everything. I'll be curious to see how well Windows does this (eg, Java has layout managers too, but I find them more awkward compared with MUI).
I also prefer writing my interfaces in code - which of course means that the language must make this easy to do - rather than faffing around with "Visual" GUI editors.
The examples shown there are pretty basic though. Show me some code that easily creates a tabbedpane/propertysheet;)
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aargh guys... Amiga one Micro is an Amiga and it runs Amigaos4.. , if i wanted a pc i would have bought that.. for a penny at the mall.
i will buy the a1 micro for sure, and then i will flash it to ya face :D
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@DonnyEMU:
Well, I'll believe it when I see it. Windows XP has the same ACL-based protection system (for everything from files to semaphores) as Windows NT. ACL systems are known to be inherently more secure than the "rwx" model Unix uses (or the similar Amiga "rwed"), yet there are lots more viruses for WindowsXP than there are for any Unix.
Microsoft has traditionally focused on giving their customers as many features as possible, considering security to be of secondary importance; only recently has security been identified as something important. My hope is that the company will latch on to this as eagerly as it did to web browser dominance (since it's pretty obvious we'll all be using MS operating systems for a long time to come), making Windows (and other MS programs) as secure as MSIE is dominant.
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Continuing on from what I said, I had a look at another article (http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/default.aspx?pull=/msdnmag/issues/04/01/Avalon/default.aspx). The last one there is the "Color Scroll". I was amused by the "Part of the challenge of writing such a program using either the Windows API or Windows Forms involves moving and resizing all the components of the window. This is an area where Avalon really shines." - wow, revolutionary!
At the end, it says "The most recent Win32 API version of this program (called COLORS1 in the fifth edition of Programming Windows) is 250 lines long. The Windows Forms version in Programming Microsoft Windows with C# is about 100 lines. This new version is only about 60 lines long, and I'm pretty sure that it can be pruned even more by using inheritance." - well, 55 lines I counted, if we ignore the blank lines to make comparisons a bit fairer.
"From 250 lines to 100 and now 60. And that, my friends, is what is commonly called progress." Hmm, the equivalent MUI program I quickly knocked up comes in at 53 lines;) (and yes, that includes the lines for declaring variables and header includes etc that you need to do in C, and no I haven't crammed everything together, it's still nicely formatted). As is typical of Microsoft developments, I can see this being a case of a huge step forward - but only from the point of view of Windows development.
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by Karlos on 2003/11/18 21:13:37
Yes, but it doesnt matter a rats bumhole if x86 cant run OS4 / MOS, does it?
Not but it runs AROS just fine. ;)
Dammy
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@Dammy
Which, IIRC is only at best sourcecode level compatible with 3.x for now :-(
-edit-
OS4 and MOS will evlove their own way as will AROS, do doubt. I dont really forsee compatibility improving over time.
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Unless they can make it cost competive with the other mini-itx mobos, it's DOA. OS4's market is way too tiny to support it and A1. Yes, it could be sold to Linux/BSD guys, but those folks will go the cheapest route.
Initially it will not be as cheap - no way, but that doesn't mean it will be DOA. The C3 chip is a wimp in comparison to any G4. Those who want small and performance are not even looking at Via's board. And the P4 on the MicroATX still sucks more power and generates a lot of "HEAT". The Linux/BSD guys will go the route that best supports their goals.
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lempkee wrote:
aargh guys... Amiga one Micro is an Amiga and it runs Amigaos4.. , if i wanted a pc i would have bought that.. for a penny at the mall.
i will buy the a1 micro for sure, and then i will flash it to ya face :D
:roflmao: Yes! Me to to! :-P
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Microsoft has traditionally focused on giving their customers as many features as possible, considering security to be of secondary importance; only recently has security been identified as something important. My hope is that the company will latch on to this as eagerly as it did to web browser dominance (since it's pretty obvious we'll all be using MS operating systems for a long time to come), making Windows (and other MS programs) as secure as MSIE is dominant.
You might! But not me - I will give up computing before I go back to a M$ OS again - "EVER"........
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by Karlos on 2003/11/19 0:00:41
@Dammy
Which, IIRC is only at best sourcecode level compatible with 3.x for now
-edit-
OS4 and MOS will evlove their own way as will AROS, do doubt. I dont really forsee compatibility improving over time.
MOS and AROS share a fair amount of code so developement between the two should be fairly easy to do. Any which way you slice it, AROS will continue to run on x86 or x86-64. So there is indeed a x86 option for Amiga fans.
Dammy
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@hammer, I just about give up, I do not retract, but we are in different worlds. You look at current trends, the latest chip designs and OS projects and can find plenty of indication that MS has the world wrapped up forever.
I on the otherhand work with people thorougly frustrated with using MS computers, ordinary folks doing ordinary jobs, hobbyists and the like.
You see business as all-wise and knowning what it is doing and thus always picking the best path for development (at least in the main).
I see business run choatically, corruptly and increadibly unproductive, by people who for the most part have not got a clue about what goes on in their own organization. I see technological development as haphazard, driven often by hype and deception. I see waste and stupidity, where progress comes despite the the businesses running the show, not because of them.
You see development tools and sophistication.
I see gigantic mechanisms designed to crack a nut, and doing so badly.
You see innovative programmers doing marvellous things in great software ventures.
I see people mindlessly doing hack work on software designs destined never to be deployed.
In short, we inhabit two different planets - no wonder we find it difficult to discuss things.
The MS world is from my perspective a giagantic money-hungry enterprise that has very little to do with practical computing but a hell of a lot to do with money spinning.
I talk with some confidence about a wave of technological revolution already appearing, because I see how despite the magnificant imporvements in hardware, the fantastic potential of software, the stuff that is available to actually use is crap - moreover those forced to use it know it is crap and are not so dazzled by promises of things to come, when they come from the same organization that supplies the crap they work on everyday.
Hammer, no amount of statistics on sales, no figures on processing speeds, no promises of things just round the corner mean much to me when I see everyday that nine-tenths of the software problems which determine the way we use our computers derive from MSes business plans.
Amiga, as I said, is in a good position to lead a change, from the bottum up.
Greg Schofield
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@DonnyEMU the stuff you bring up XAML is very important.
However, I would like to move it away from MSes Longhorn. This is something which AMIGA needs now, but not I think in the way MS is implementing it.
I believe, AMIGA could quickly have a much better system in place, not because it would be more sophisticated but because it would be useful to users rather than exclusively developers such as Longhorn seems to be aimed.
Greg Schofield
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by Wolfe on 2003/11/19 1:44:40
nitially it will not be as cheap - no way, but that doesn't mean it will be DOA.
So outside of a thousand or so Amiga Inc fans, who is going to buy it? It's a luxiary item in a time when IT folks are not comfortable spending that type of money on a novelity.
he C3 chip is a wimp in comparison to any G4. Those who want small and performance are not even looking at Via's board. And the P4 on the MicroATX still sucks more power and generates a lot of "HEAT". The Linux/BSD guys will go the route that best supports their goals.
True, C3 isn't that great horsepower wise, M-Pentium is and as is Transmeta. Yeah, you can go G4, but that puppy needs either a fan or heatpipe just like the AMD or Intel dekstop CPUs. It really depends on what your planning to use it for. Run AROS, the sub $100 VIA C3 mobos should be more then powerful enough. Run a firewall, not a problem for sub $100 mobo to do. Run Apache on Linux, shouldn't be much of a problem. As I've said previously, the *nix guys wil go for something cheap and make it work nicely.
Dammy
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Dammy
"" So outside of a thousand or so Amiga Inc fans, who is going to buy it? It's a luxiary item in a time when IT folks are not comfortable spending that type of money on a novelity. ""
I think there is a market for the A1Lite with or without Amiga OS4. Small, powerfull and capable of being a full desktop computer solution in a tiny package. Something a C3 is not really suited for. Plus an upgradeable CPU.
"" Run AROS, the sub $100 VIA C3 mobos should be more then powerful enough. ""
Aros - Not ready for prime time -Yet !
"" Run a firewall, not a problem for sub $100 mobo to do. Run Apache on Linux, shouldn't be much of a problem. As I've said previously, the *nix guys wil go for something cheap and make it work nicely. ""
Yes, but the above is a limited use system. Try playing a cool game on one! :-D
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by Wolfe on 2003/11/19 6:32:34
I think there is a market for the A1Lite with or without Amiga OS4. Small, powerfull and capable of being a full desktop computer solution in a tiny package. Something a C3 is not really suited for. Plus an upgradeable CPU.
But can it compete with these (http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20031110/index.html) ? That's the big question, if you want a real desktop in a small package.
Aros - Not ready for prime time -Yet !
Atleast it's out now for enjoyment, unlike OS4.
Yes, but the above is a limited use system. Try playing a cool game on one!
Soon. :-D
Dammy
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@Dammy
But can it compete with these ? That's the big question, if you want a real desktop in a small package.
Cool. The answer is "NO" if you want to run winblows. But as far as alternative OS's are concerned, well only time will tell. Besides, you could put a A1Lite inside one of those cases.
Atleast it's out now for enjoyment, unlike OS4.
True ! But it's not ready for the PPC. ;-)
I want an alternative to the "PC" offerings. Just because it's cheaper doesn't mean its the better way to go. If I have to pay a little more initially to get a new direction for idea's not swallowed up by M$ going, I will do it. Provided their is some bang for my buck. :-D
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by Wolfe on 2003/11/19 14:17:55
I want an alternative to the "PC" offerings. Just because it's cheaper doesn't mean its the better way to go. If I have to pay a little more initially to get a new direction for idea's not swallowed up by M$ going, I will do it. Provided their is some bang for my buck.
Just because it's different and more expensive doesn't mean it's going to be better either. As far as M$, I fail to understand this phobia tied into x86 when M$ was for a reasonable period tied to PPC and M$ appears to be porting W2K/XBoX to PPC as well. Shouldn't you also be running and screaming away from PPC as well if your going to be consistant?
Dammy
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Dammy
" Just because it's different and more expensive doesn't mean it's going to be better either."
True, but is is a change, an opportunity for new ideas or a new direction.
" As far as M$, I fail to understand this phobia tied into x86 when M$ was for a reasonable period tied to PPC and M$ appears to be porting W2K/XBoX to PPC as well."
X86 - My boycott of X86 is to help bring about change.
M$ - Of course it will come to PPC and in the future to any other processor that takes to the market successfully. "Global domination is the goal"! If the Chinese put forward their new processor and it is a success M$ will be available their too.
Like the "Borg", M$ intends to assimilate every one possible.
" Shouldn't you also be running and screaming away from PPC as well if your going to be consistant?"
No, Stand and fight is the right thing to do. Put my money where my mouth is. If I gave up that easily I would not still use the "Amiga"..... :-D
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Dammy
" But can it compete with these (http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20031110/index.html) ? That's the big question, if you want a real desktop in a small package."
After reading the entire reviews of the various mini pc's I have to say "Yes" it can compete. These are space saving space heaters. Did you check out the air conditioner requiered to cool the CPU?