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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: KatManDEW on January 30, 2010, 05:18:31 AM

Title: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: KatManDEW on January 30, 2010, 05:18:31 AM
I have the Indivision for my A1200 and I don't see any options for more than 256 colors... I only want more than 256 colors for paint and image applications, not Workbench.... I have a accelerated A1200, with Apollo 1240 and 32 meg RAM.

How do I get screen modes with more than 256 colors?
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Damion on January 30, 2010, 06:18:30 AM
Displayable colors is the same as before with Indivision, it just affects the scanrate.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: tone007 on January 30, 2010, 10:59:18 AM
You'll probably need to make sure the application you're using supports AGA.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Karlos on January 30, 2010, 10:59:57 AM
Wasn't there some old hack that allowed you to use HAM modes for Workbench?
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: ChaosLord on January 30, 2010, 11:44:07 AM
Quote
>256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Select a HAM8 gfx mode in your paint program.
[/B]
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Hell Labs on January 30, 2010, 12:05:13 PM
http://www.vesalia.de/e_indivisionaga1200.htm

Apparently it's supposed to be supported.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Piru on January 30, 2010, 12:12:21 PM
Quote from: Hell Labs;540727
http://www.vesalia.de/e_indivisionaga1200.htm

Apparently it's supposed to be supported.

"24 Bit colour resolution in all screenmodes" doesn't mean that it supports 24bit modes. It means it supports 8bits per gun (R, G and B).

Misleading? Perhaps.

The only way to get more than 256 colours with this setup is to use HAM6 or HAM8 screenmodes.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Linde on January 30, 2010, 12:29:39 PM
On a similar note, I've always wondered if it wouldn't be able to do chunky->planar conversion. Like a graffiti compatible device.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Karlos on January 30, 2010, 12:31:51 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;540726
Select a HAM8 gfx mode in your paint program.
[/B]


Like this chap (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2662) :-)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: pampers on January 30, 2010, 12:37:06 PM
What would be the speed with 060/50Mhz and Workbench in 256 colors via Indivision Aga? I was trying to find some movies on YT but there is non with that config..
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: tone007 on January 30, 2010, 12:44:04 PM
Sluggish, but not entirely unusable if all those colors really were required.

32 color was always the most usable one for me.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Karlos on January 30, 2010, 12:53:10 PM
Quote from: Linde;540730
On a similar note, I've always wondered if it wouldn't be able to do chunky->planar conversion. Like a graffiti compatible device.

When I first got my BlizzardPPC and before I got an RTG card, I was struck with an idea that has always left me a bit curious since. In the day, I used to use Shapeshifter and there was a PPC enabled external video driver called SavagePPC (Demo version here (http://aminet.net/package/misc/emu/SavagePPC)), which as the name implies, used the PPC to handle C2P conversion and, in the full version, supported 15-bit modes on AGA using a HAM based C2P routine.

Now, phase5 shipped an AGA driver with CyberGraphX. It allowed applications that relied on CGX calls to work on AGA screenmodes, provided they would work with 256 colour modes. However, it wasn't really much of a display driver, but it did show that you could use the native display as a CGX back end, albeit only in 8-bit modes.

My idea, although I've never seriously made a feasibility study of it, was to design an RTG driver that used Fast RAM for chunky bitmaps in 8/16/24/32 bit depths and passing that back as the BitMap whenever a CGX compatible one is asked for. So, when opening, say, a 16-bit screen, what you'd actually get was an 8-bit screen opened and a 16-bit chunky buffer in fast ram. Using a blanking interrupt, the PPC would kick in and do any required RGB->HAM conversion and C2P on the areas of the screen that appear to have changed in a manner similar to the SavagePPC EVD. If it could be made to work, then you could also implement basic blitter routines (block move, fill, scale etc) that would also use the PPC when processing areas of the chunky buffer large enough to mask the context-switch time (and simply doing it on the 68K when the areas are too small to be worth it).

The idea pretty much died when I got a graphics card, though I still wonder about it from time to time, especially with the IndivisionAGA HighGFX stuff. The notion of a 15 bit RTG display running at 1024x768 on AGA makes me smile.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Piru on January 30, 2010, 01:29:20 PM
Quote from: pampers;540732
What would be the speed with 060/50Mhz and Workbench in 256 colors via Indivision Aga?

exactly the same speed as same setup without Indivision AGA.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Matt_H on January 30, 2010, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Hell Labs;540727
http://www.vesalia.de/e_indivisionaga1200.htm

Apparently it's supposed to be supported.


Just to add a bit to what Piru said, what that essentially means is that HAM modes are properly scandoubled. Scandoublers that don't support 24 bits produce washed out or dithered colors in HAM or other high-color modes.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Piru on January 30, 2010, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: Karlos;540737
The notion of a 15 bit RTG display running at 1024x768 on AGA makes me smile.

It wouldn't be that high resolution.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Karlos on January 30, 2010, 02:32:32 PM
Quote from: Piru;540742
It wouldn't be that high resolution.

Well, no, it wouldn't. It would be 6 or 8 bitplane HAM 1024x768 on AGA. The 15/16-bit BitMap would only actually exist in FastRAM, in theory.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: kolla on January 30, 2010, 05:09:27 PM
DPaint 4.5 AGA with Indivision rocks (http://amiga.nvg.org/moro/Indivision_AGA/dpaint4.png)! :)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: KatManDEW on January 30, 2010, 05:09:37 PM
Quote from: Piru;540729
"24 Bit colour resolution in all screenmodes" doesn't mean that it supports 24bit modes. It means it supports 8bits per gun (R, G and B).

Misleading? Perhaps.

The only way to get more than 256 colours with this setup is to use HAM6 or HAM8 screenmodes.


I guess I misinterperted that. I can get resonable color depth on my A2000 with Flicker Fixer, Picasso II, And Picasso96.

I take it Picasso96 doesn't work with the Indivision?

I was playing with ImageStudio last night. I didn't see any HAM options in the screen modes.

The attached pic is a screen dump from ImageStudio on my A2000.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Piru on January 30, 2010, 05:16:16 PM
Quote from: KatManDEW;540766
I guess I misinterperted that. I can get resonable color depth on my A2000 with Flicker Fixer, Picasso II, And Picasso96.

I take it Picasso96 doesn't work with the Indivision?

It won't work. Indivision AGA isn't a graphics card.

I still think the marketing should be more clear about this. I am not so sure if you're the only one fooled by that "24 bit" clause.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Karlos on January 30, 2010, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: Piru;540767
It won't work. Indivision AGA isn't a graphics card.

I still think the marketing should be more clear about this. I am not so sure if you're the only one fooled by that "24 bit" clause.


Perhaps. I think the reason they state this is to distinguish their product from competitor's devices, some of which have had poor gun precision. In particular, I have seen some very strange arrangements as R8 G4 B4, which although fine for OCS/ECS are pretty poor on AGA. Thus their claim to support 24-bit colour is fine but they should be clearer about what they mean by that.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: ChaosLord on January 30, 2010, 07:07:41 PM
Scandoublers that don't support 24 bits produce incorrect colors in ALL AGA modes.

Even if you have a 16 color workbench on your A1200, the 24-bit precision is constantly being used to show the correct 16 colors all the time.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Damion on January 30, 2010, 07:31:18 PM
TN LCDs can make AGA look pretty nasty, too. Very noticeable with a good AGA slideshow.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Crom00 on January 30, 2010, 07:33:56 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;540778
Scandoublers that don't support 24 bits produce incorrect colors in ALL AGA modes.

Even if you have a 16 color workbench on your A1200, the 24-bit precision is constantly being used to show the correct 16 colors all the time.


Up unitl the Indivision: There was the commodore FF and others. The flicker fixer from Commodore but limited you to a palatte of 4096 colors, no 24bit

Then 16 Bit support was common after commodores demise with 3rd parts solutions.

The Invidision uses a 24 bit color chip to support a 24 bit pallete. There's no way for this thing to behave as a graphics card, where you get extra colors  in a 256 screnmode and nigher resolutions. It just promotes every native AGA screen to VGA scanrates and removes the annoying flicker.

I uses it with NTSC modes  as they run quicker. The AMiga is only generating 15lkhz signal. The Inidivusion promotes this to 31klhz. Using a DBLNTSC wit the Indivision is slow.

A really great product!
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Thomas on January 30, 2010, 08:25:05 PM
Quote
and nigher resolutions


Indivision is the only scandoubler which supports the HighGfx monitor driver which allows to use resolutions of 1024x768. So effectively the Indivision *does* allow to use higher resolutions.

Quote
Using a DBLNTSC wit the Indivision is slow.


For DblNTSC you don't need the Indivision. This mode can be displayed on a PC monitor without a scandoubler. And it is always slow, with or without the Indivision.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: KatManDEW on January 30, 2010, 09:34:20 PM
So would I need something like a Mediator and PCI graphics card to get 24 bit color on the A1200?

What advantages do AGA offer?
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: ChaosLord on January 30, 2010, 10:09:39 PM
Quote from: KatManDEW;540789
So would I need something like a Mediator and PCI graphics card to get 24 bit color on the A1200?

For what you are trying to do, paint and desktop publish in 16 million colors then the answer is yes.  That is how I do it btw.

Quote
What advantages do AGA offer?
You already have AGA so its main advantage is that it is free.

If you add a mediator + PCI gfx card then you still have your AGA gfx modes.  But in addition you have PC gfx modes.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Jose on January 30, 2010, 10:50:48 PM
@Karlos

2 great paint programs already do that, TrueBrilliance and DPaintV. Never tried the later but the 1st can use an internal 24bit buffer. TrueBrilliance works like this: If you draw for example a white line over a 24bit image it gets drawn with normal HAM8 and so is displayed with artifacts. This is while you're drawing and keep the mouse buttom pressed. As soon as you release the mouse button the program seems to analise what you've just drawn and the HAM8 artifacts (or HAM6) gradually (and pretty fast but you can see it) disappear. It seems to be be either calculating a new pallete to cover the HAM artifacts or, even better, using the copper to change it on the fly. Many years ago I also wanted to know if it used the copper or not (probably would need to disassemble the copper instructions for a modified and a premodified image and compare them) but never bothered...

This is starting to seem like the old discussions I used to see here back in the old times:)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: stefcep2 on February 02, 2010, 11:01:15 AM
Quote from: Thomas;540784
Indivision is the only scandoubler which supports the HighGfx monitor driver which allows to use resolutions of 1024x768. So effectively the Indivision *does* allow to use higher resolutions.



For DblNTSC you don't need the Indivision. This mode can be displayed on a PC monitor without a scandoubler. And it is always slow, with or without the Indivision.


I've always found that an interlaced screen at the same res and colors is faster than a native dblscan or productivity.  I'm assuming then using the de-interlacing function of the indivision will in practice therefore give you faster display at the same res and color depth and refresh rate
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: merlin3d on February 02, 2010, 11:15:32 AM
Quote from: KatManDEW;540714
I have the Indivision for my A1200 and I don't see any options for more than 256 colors... I only want more than 256 colors for paint and image applications, not Workbench.... I have a accelerated A1200, with Apollo 1240 and 32 meg RAM.

How do I get screen modes with more than 256 colors?
You installs Indivision Screen Modes in Devs:Monitors?
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Piru on February 02, 2010, 11:22:18 AM
Quote from: merlin3d;541131
You installs Indivision Screen Modes in Devs:Monitors?

No.

Lets try again:

1. Indivision AGA isn't a graphics card
2. Indivision AGA doesn't give you any more colours
3. Indivision AGA does not give you 15, 16 or 24-bit modes
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Kronos on February 02, 2010, 11:27:43 AM
Simplified:

AGA has 3 different (fixed) pixel-clocks:
LowRES,HighRES and SuperHighRES, each doubling to the one before.

SuperHighRES in 8Bit needs such a bandwidth that it uses up allmost all clock-cycles that would normally allow the CPU to access the ChipRAM. Thats why it feels so slow.
HighRES in 8Bit only uses the clock-cycles that are assigned to the chipset anyways.

All (AGA) screenmodes are based one of these, increase the pixel-count and you have to reduce the refreshrate and vice-versa.

One could in theory create a 1280x1024 screenmode based on LowRES, problem is that it would refresh only at about 3Hz. Same mode in HighRES 6Hz, SuperHighRES 12Hz ...

Actually one can get slightly better refrsh-rates by useing overscan.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Thomas on February 02, 2010, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: stefcep2;541130
I've always found that an interlaced screen at the same res and colors is faster than a native dblscan or productivity.  I'm assuming then using the de-interlacing function of the indivision will in practice therefore give you faster display at the same res and color depth and refresh rate


Certainly interlace is faster than dbl because dbl has to transfer twice as much data in the same time as interlace. Therefore the CPU has only half of the cycles to access chip-ram.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Crumb on February 02, 2010, 02:33:46 PM
@Thomas
Quote from: Thomas;540784
Indivision is the only scandoubler which supports the HighGfx monitor driver which allows to use resolutions of 1024x768. So effectively the Indivision *does* allow to use higher resolutions.

It's not the only one. Compserv Flicker Fixer II was the first flicker fixer in supporting HighGfx:
http://amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=378

BTW, there are 24bit scandoublers like Compserv Arxxon. Others are not 24bit (like cv3d scandoubler). PicassoIV is 24bit but doesn't support super-hires so some demos don't look perfect.
IMHO best Flickerfixers are Indivision 1200/4000/ECS.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: stefcep2 on February 03, 2010, 04:57:30 AM
so where can I get the Indivision 1200 from?  Amigakit's site takes you to indivision 4000/ECS only.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: AmigaHeretic on February 03, 2010, 05:05:49 AM
Quote from: Piru;540767
It won't work. Indivision AGA isn't a graphics card.

I still think the marketing should be more clear about this. I am not so sure if you're the only one fooled by that "24 bit" clause.



I don't really think it is misleading.  It's "24bit" a lot of scan doublers are not 24bit.  It's actually really hard to find true 24bit ones.  A lot do that 6bit 7 bit 6 bit crap and AGA ends of looking horrible.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: KatManDEW on February 03, 2010, 05:51:39 AM
Quote from: stefcep2;541301
so where can I get the Indivision 1200 from?  Amigakit's site takes you to indivision 4000/ECS only.


I think they're out of the A1200 version at them moment, and they plan to get more.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Ratte on March 13, 2010, 10:07:18 AM
THIS IS JUST A COPY FROM MY POSTING ON EAB / REGARDING INDIVISION ECS
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=650545&postcount=669


...


Talking for myself ...

Hardware:
I am doing some reseach and testing for a automatic monitorswitch.
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19511
Jens got a sample and i promised him my free support if he could do something "commercial" as an addon for the Indivision-series.
At the moment I do some research in direction of the WT8048-IC ...

Software:
As you know, before HighGFX the Super72-mode was the highest screensolution with 1:1 pixelratio.
These modes can be used with the ECS-chipset, but they are limited to 4 colors out of 64.
If you like to use 16colors (MagicWB or WB3.9) you are limited to 640x512.
Compared to the breaktrough of HighGFX on AGA, I am gone release SuperPlus in the future.
Presenting a ECS-screenmode with 800x600 in 16 colors out of 4096.
A IndivisionECS will help you to keep your eyes intact, but it can be displayed on some tolerant displays without Indivison (tested on a Iliyama 5017).
SuperPlus is also interesting for the AGA-chipset, because it used the "HiRes"-mode with 70ns instead "SuperHiRes" with 35ns pixelclock.
The display-DMA is not that heavyloaded like in Super72 and displayoperations are faster.
The Indivision-series (ECS&AGA) will need a firmware-update for this mode, it depends on Oliver and Jens to support that mode.
(Just like Xtreme-support...)

DualScreen-Mode is a littlebit difficult and I do my best to release a stable and usefull driver for it.
I´d like to combine it with the SuperPlus driver to enable a 1600x600 dualscreen in 16 colors with "usefull" speed.


...

@Kronos:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=532482&postcount=650

20.03. Hörstel @Geit ?
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: NovaCoder on March 13, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Quote from: pampers;540732
What would be the speed with 060/50Mhz and Workbench in 256 colors via Indivision Aga? I was trying to find some movies on YT but there is non with that config..


Yep there is 256 color AGA only Workbench (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VETGfJ9pjI0) ;)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: kolla on March 13, 2010, 12:20:52 PM
I wish there was some screenmode that could let my Indivision AGA do 800x600 properly.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: warpdesign on March 13, 2010, 12:49:44 PM
Quote

Thus their claim to support 24-bit colour is fine but they should be clearer about what they mean by that.

It is misleading: two or three people here already got wrong because of that. Unless you're really into technical stuff, you'll interpret it as supporting (adding) 24bit in AGA. Weather it was done on purpose or not is left to the appreciation of everyone (I wouldn't be surprised it was).

Adding something like "full-AGA support, including HAM8 modes (HighGFX HAM8 supported)" would be ok as I see it.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: kolla on March 13, 2010, 01:35:01 PM
Quote from: warpdesign;547435
It is misleading: two or three people here already got wrong because of that. Unless you're really into technical stuff, you'll interpret it as supporting (adding) 24bit in AGA. Weather it was done on purpose or not is left to the appreciation of everyone (I wouldn't be surprised it was).

This is getting silly. First of all, the description is perfectly accurate, and there's hardly any other way to put it. Secondly, why on earth would Jens&Co want to create so much trouble for themselves by doing false marketing, as you suggest? It's a scandoubler/flickerfixer - if some people dont know what that is, that is _their_ problem. Maybe they also think that if you watch "plan9 from outter space" on a new 50+ inch LED TV, it will suddenly be in colours? After all, it is a colour TV, right?

Quote
Adding something like "full-AGA support, including HAM8 modes (HighGFX HAM8 supported)" would be ok as I see it.
That would not be an accurate enough description, would it?

Nowhere does it claim to be a graphics card.
Nowhere does it claim to add 24bit screenmodes.
Nowhere does it claim to make the graphics faster.
Nowhere does it claim to make the machine faster.
Nowhere does it claim to make your penis bigger.

It's just a scandoubler/flickerfixer with 24bit output.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Kronos on March 13, 2010, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: Ratte;547421


@Kronos:

20.03. Hörstel @Geit ?


Sure, where else ?

Quite a long outtime you have taken ..... *g*
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Ratte on March 13, 2010, 02:06:34 PM
Quote from: Kronos;547439
Sure, where else ?


pm
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: NovaCoder on March 15, 2010, 10:08:31 PM
Quote from: kolla;547433
I wish there was some screenmode that could let my Indivision AGA do 800x600 properly.


Quote from: Ratte
;
Presenting a ECS-screenmode with 800x600 in 16 colors out of 4096.
A IndivisionECS will help you to keep your eyes intact, but it can be displayed on some tolerant displays without Indivison (tested on a Iliyama 5017).
SuperPlus is also interesting for the AGA-chipset, because it used the "HiRes"-mode with 70ns instead "SuperHiRes" with 35ns pixelclock.


So I when it's released we should get a nice fast 800x600 256 colour mode :)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: kolla on March 15, 2010, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: NovaCoder;547740
So I when it's released we should get a nice fast 800x600 256 colour mode :)


Yay! Looking for forward to it! :)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Cammy on March 15, 2010, 11:32:48 PM
Way to go, Ratte! A true 800x600 mode at last would be great, especially for those 020+ Indivision ECS owners.

On another note, was HighGFX Extreme ever finished and usable? I remember testing it unsuccessfully, but perhaps it was because my Indivision hadn't been flashed to the latest firmware yet.

Keep up the good work! :)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: NovaCoder on March 15, 2010, 11:35:17 PM
Quote from: Cammy;547757
Way to go, Ratte! A true 800x600 mode at last would be great, especially for those 020+ Indivision ECS owners.

On another note, was HighGFX Extreme ever finished and usable? I remember testing it unsuccessfully, but perhaps it was because my Indivision hadn't been flashed to the latest firmware yet.

Keep up the good work! :)


I heard that it was finished ages ago, just waiting for Oliver to update the FPGA (seems to be a bit slow).
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: gertsy on March 16, 2010, 10:17:34 AM
Quote from: kolla;547438
This is getting silly.
Nowhere does it claim to be a graphics card.
Nowhere does it claim to add 24bit screenmodes.
Nowhere does it claim to make the graphics faster.
Nowhere does it claim to make the machine faster.
Nowhere does it claim to make your penis bigger.

It's just a scandoubler/flickerfixer with 24bit output.


Man I was convinced about the last claim and was looking to get one.  But now you've dashed my high hopes...

I'm Sad.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Crumb on March 16, 2010, 01:31:27 PM
Quote from: warpdesign;547435
It is misleading: two or three people here already got wrong because of that. Unless you're really into technical stuff, you'll interpret it as supporting (adding) 24bit in AGA. Weather it was done on purpose or not is left to the appreciation of everyone (I wouldn't be surprised it was).

Adding something like "full-AGA support, including HAM8 modes (HighGFX HAM8 supported)" would be ok as I see it.


AGA has always been 24bits. Ham8 has nothing to do with the scandoubler being 24bit or not. AGA uses 24bits to define each colour of the palette. And that means smooth 24bit gradients instead of 16bit ones with ocs-like colour banding.

I wouldn't buy any scandoubler/flickerfixer for my AGA machines that was not true 24bit.

Indivision is advertised as 24bit Flickerfixer, not as a 24bit graphic card.

Indivision also allows using screenmodes that are usually unfriendly with most of monitors.

I think that people should learn that AGA has always been 24bit but cheap flickerfixers&scandoublers (like CV3D one) degraded colour quality because these weren't true 24bits.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Ratte on March 23, 2010, 11:31:20 PM
SuperPlus V40.0 800x600 48Hz/15kHz (results from betatest compared to Super72)
A4000D - Blizzard 4030/882 @ 50 MHz - 2MB Chip / 16MB Fast - OS3.1 - P96Speed1.2


8 Bitplanes = 256 Colors

RectFill x 1.76
RectFillPattern x 1.73
WritePixel x 1.40
WriteChunkyPixels x 1.71
WritePixelArray8 x 1.21
WritePixelLine8 x 1.36
DrawEllipse x 1.73
DrawCircle x 1.75
Draw x 1.92
Draw Hor/Ver x 2.00
ScrollRasterX x 1.50
ScrollRasterY x 1.67
Text x 1.91
BltBitMap x 1.97
BltBitMapRastPort x 1.99
BitMapScaling x 2.14
OpenWindow x 1.50
MoveWindow x 1.83
SizeWindow x 1.55
CON-Output x 1.53


6 Bitplanes = 64 Colors

RectFill x 1.14
RectFillPattern x 1.22
WritePixel x 1.03
WriteChunkyPixels x 1.00
WritePixelArray8 x 1.02
WritePixelLine8 x 1.00
DrawEllipse x 1.05
DrawCircle x 1.02
Draw x 1.36
Draw Hor/Ver x 1.35
ScrollRasterX x 1.00
ScrollRasterY x 1.14
Text x 1.34
BltBitMap x 1.05
BltBitMapRastPort x 1.05
BitMapScaling x 1.02
OpenWindow x 1.11
MoveWindow x 1.02
SizeWindow x 1.10
CON-Output x 1.02


4 Bitplanes = 16 Colors

RectFill x 1.03
RectFillPattern x 1.04
WritePixel x 1.03
WriteChunkyPixels x 1.00
WritePixelArray8 x 1.02
WritePixelLine8 x 1.00
DrawEllipse x 1.06
DrawCircle x 1.05
Draw x 1.23
Draw Hor/Ver x 1.21
ScrollRasterX x 1.00
ScrollRasterY x 1.00
Text x 1.15
BltBitMap x 1.02
BltBitMapRastPort x 1.02
BitMapScaling x 1.02
OpenWindow x 1.00
MoveWindow x 1.16
SizeWindow x 1.04
CON-Output x 1.02
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: warpdesign on March 24, 2010, 11:33:31 AM
Quote

Indivision is advertised as 24bit Flickerfixer, not as a 24bit graphic card.

The thing is, for most people, reading "24bit" means 24bit screenmodes... Most people may be wrong, you won't change them. So this is misleading for most people.

There is a way to acurrately describe the project *without* misleading people. That's my point.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Ratte on March 24, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
Can´t  you call HAM8 a 24Bit-screenmode ?!
The number of bits are standing for colordeep not for bitplanesnumbers.
8 bit per gun (RGB) are 24 Bit and they can be displayed all toghter at the same time on the same screen.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Crumb on March 24, 2010, 12:46:03 PM
Quote from: warpdesign;549482
The thing is, for most people, reading "24bit" means 24bit screenmodes... Most people may be wrong, you won't change them. So this is misleading for most people.

There is a way to acurrately describe the project *without* misleading people. That's my point.

AGA screens can have 24bit colour accuracy even if you just display 2 colours. Scandoublers/flickerfixers need 24bit accuracy and Indivision is advertised correctly.

It seems that recently a few people confuse flickerfixers with graphic cards. It's not Jen's fault. It's like buying a high quality cd player and complaining because it doesn't play bluerays. I guess CD player producers will have to add an sticker claiming "it's not a blueray player".

Indivision is better than the average flickerfixer because:
-it's true 24bit and doesn't degrade colours
-it works with TFT monitors
-it can show screenmodes like 1280x1024 and 800x600 that no other flickerfixer can show.

Average Joe user doesn't know what an amiga is and some people had not contact with classic amiga for years. Let me know when was the last time you turned on a classic. That's the reason you confuse 24bit with RTG.
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: desiv on March 24, 2010, 03:42:10 PM
Quote from: Crumb;549490
It's like buying a high quality cd player and complaining because it doesn't play bluerays. I guess CD player producers will have to add an sticker claiming "it's not a blueray player".

Actually that's not what it's like at all.

Unless your CD player says that it plays "Blueray quality" disks or something similar...

The issue isn't that people are saying the Indivision marketing is wrong.  They are saying it's not 100% clear to all of their audience.
As evidenced by the number of people complaining about it.

I didn't see a problem with it, but I was aware of the technical terms.

It reminds me a bit more of the early descriptions of the SD Card floppy adapter that's being offered.  Some of the initial descriptions said that it supported read write.  But, when you read their page, it mentioned the formats, and the Amiga format was read-only.  I can see on their forums that several people missed that.  It's much more clear on their pages now, but initially it was a bit buried.

However, I was OK with that too, because it wasn't a polished - commercial distribution..  It's some guys hacking this stuff together really well..

So, what am I saying?  hmm..  :confused:  Not sure..  Just rambling before I get my caffeine I guess.  :-)

But I do think the terms are confusing to a certain percentage of their audience, even if those terms are technically accurate...

desiv
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: NovaCoder on March 24, 2010, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: Ratte;549404
SuperPlus V40.0 800x600 48Hz/15kHz (results from betatest compared to Super72)
A4000D - Blizzard 4030/882 @ 50 MHz - 2MB Chip / 16MB Fast - OS3.1 - P96Speed1.2


8 Bitplanes = 256 Colors

RectFill x 1.76
RectFillPattern x 1.73
WritePixel x 1.40
WriteChunkyPixels x 1.71
WritePixelArray8 x 1.21
WritePixelLine8 x 1.36
DrawEllipse x 1.73
DrawCircle x 1.75
Draw x 1.92
Draw Hor/Ver x 2.00
ScrollRasterX x 1.50
ScrollRasterY x 1.67
Text x 1.91
BltBitMap x 1.97
BltBitMapRastPort x 1.99
BitMapScaling x 2.14
OpenWindow x 1.50
MoveWindow x 1.83
SizeWindow x 1.55
CON-Output x 1.53


6 Bitplanes = 64 Colors

RectFill x 1.14
RectFillPattern x 1.22
WritePixel x 1.03
WriteChunkyPixels x 1.00
WritePixelArray8 x 1.02
WritePixelLine8 x 1.00
DrawEllipse x 1.05
DrawCircle x 1.02
Draw x 1.36
Draw Hor/Ver x 1.35
ScrollRasterX x 1.00
ScrollRasterY x 1.14
Text x 1.34
BltBitMap x 1.05
BltBitMapRastPort x 1.05
BitMapScaling x 1.02
OpenWindow x 1.11
MoveWindow x 1.02
SizeWindow x 1.10
CON-Output x 1.02


4 Bitplanes = 16 Colors

RectFill x 1.03
RectFillPattern x 1.04
WritePixel x 1.03
WriteChunkyPixels x 1.00
WritePixelArray8 x 1.02
WritePixelLine8 x 1.00
DrawEllipse x 1.06
DrawCircle x 1.05
Draw x 1.23
Draw Hor/Ver x 1.21
ScrollRasterX x 1.00
ScrollRasterY x 1.00
Text x 1.15
BltBitMap x 1.02
BltBitMapRastPort x 1.02
BitMapScaling x 1.02
OpenWindow x 1.00
MoveWindow x 1.16
SizeWindow x 1.04
CON-Output x 1.02


Very impressive, looks like '>256 colors with Indivision for A1200' is a yes then ;)
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: Gulliver on March 24, 2010, 10:42:03 PM
Can a non indivision Amiga use this SuperPlus modes? If so, where can I get it to give it a try?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: >256 colors with Indivision for A1200?
Post by: warpdesign on March 25, 2010, 06:41:32 PM
Quote

But I do think the terms are confusing to a certain percentage of their audience, even if those terms are technically accurate...

Sigh... thank you!