Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: dougal on January 25, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
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I think if the new Amiga is to be a succsess i would suggest that just like when the first A1000 came out back in 1985, the new Amiga must be GROUND BREAKING, not just a machine which can run OS4 etc...
They should design a games console, but more powerful than the Playstation3 or Xbox360 with better processing power, better graphics hardware etc...
From that they should turn it into a computer with expansion slots, built in wifi etc.. and have it packaged with a Amiga branded keyboard/mouse and the latest OS4.
With such powerfull hardware and maybe a good ad campaign they could get 3rd party support for games (such as from EA or Activision etc...)
Maybe in the future even release a smaller version (with no Xorro/PC slots etc..) and it would be a kind of moder A500 games machine yet still a computer at the same time.
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And who is going to fund this?
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What about the minimig can that not be expanded to have networking. A 600mhz ARM CPU is plenty of power to surf the net. Probably not enough for HD movies though.
The iSlate will be out in two days. Supposedly a iphone only larger. I don't see a market for a high end Amiga, but there is plenty of opportunity on the low end. 1000 sales vs 50.
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pfft!
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They should design a games console, but more powerful than the Playstation3 or Xbox360 with better processing power, better graphics hardware etc.
Assuming they would somehow be able to pull this off (money, hw designers, all 3rd party ppl you need to talk to etc), it would still fail:
1. It would be more expensive.
2. It would have no games.
With such powerfull hardware and maybe a good ad campaign they could get 3rd party support for games (such as from EA or Activision etc...)
That is not enough to get any game company's attention. You need a market... which you can't get with hideously expensive console with 0 games.
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Publishers more than ever are unwilling to fund game development on the big consoles if they game might only shift a million copies. Why on earth would they risk it a completly new hardware platform.
It has taken microsfot, a compnay will massive resources and billions of dollars to hand, long enough to become a serious contender in the console market.
There is very little chance of a new player in the market selling loads of consoles. What is left to do, slightly better graphics? We are already seeing new input devices (Wii) and motion tracking on the xbox and playstaion.
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Better than a 360 or a PS3?
LOL! ... But i have to say that's daydreaming.
To build a hi-tech machine is very expensive, it's not just a matter of mixing ingredients for a magical recipe that would work or not.
However as it has been said, it would be farging expensive. Nobody would aim for such a project with no name, no brand, no games and no rentability.
The X1000 or the Natami should aim to be 100% compatible and with enouth power to replace our PC's for daily use. That means, surf the web, write emails, some office stuff, watch videos, listen some music and have enough power to emulate 16bit and luckilly some 32bit systems.
And of course for an "affordable" price. That's it. Suggesting a Hi-Tech rampage would not give any profit to the Amiga community, because it's nonsense. We're not in the top league anymore. Just be sure we survive for useful but esential use. That's it, and that would be a promising future, because we don't need super-megaton-hi-tech 3D graphics to have fun or do our daily stuff. We already have PS3 or 360 for that.
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I don't understand why people feel the need to make suggestions like these. If the hardware actually exists at this time, it isn't going to be revised based on someone's wishlist posting.
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It would be easier to make a touchscreen phone (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/technology_news/4253095.html) like the iphone optimised to run all the amiga game back catalogue as well as make calls/run apps/browse the web and everything else we have come to expect from such devices.
But even that requires a crazy amount of money which nobody in this community has to invest in such a project so lets stick to being realistic shall we.
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I don't understand why people feel the need to make suggestions like these. If the hardware actually exists at this time, it isn't going to be revised based on someone's wishlist posting.
Exactly.
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I think if the new Amiga is to be a succsess i would suggest that just like when the first A1000 came out back in 1985, the new Amiga must be GROUND BREAKING, not just a machine which can run OS4 etc...
Nearly impossible today, simply too much competition.
They should design a games console, but more powerful than the Playstation3 or Xbox360 with better processing power, better graphics hardware etc...
Again, nearly impossible - if it was possible, Nintendo and others would already be doing that.
From that they should turn it into a computer with expansion slots, built in wifi etc.. and have it packaged with a Amiga branded keyboard/mouse and the latest OS4.
Latest OS4 lacks fundamental features that both developers and users expect to find in an OS today. Noone outside the Amiga community is interested, and the few who might be, quickly shun off once they see what state the OS is in.
With such powerfull hardware and maybe a good ad campaign they could get 3rd party support for games (such as from EA or Activision etc...)
OS4 lacks fundamental features for being interesting for games developers.
Maybe in the future even release a smaller version (with no Xorro/PC slots etc..) and it would be a kind of moder A500 games machine yet still a computer at the same time.
All the games consoles today already are usable as computers, there's lots of software for them already, to be bought online.
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Latest OS4 lacks fundamental features that both developers and users expect to find in an OS today. Noone outside the Amiga community is interested, and the few who might be, quickly shun off once they see what state the OS is in.
Sorry, but I don't agree here, Ok, there's no memory protection, there's no multi-user architecture, no Posix and no "whatever fancy feature you feel a question of life & death", but I don't think average people will ever list OS features and decide what to buy.
They will, instead, ask basic questions like "will this make me surf the web without issues? will this allow me playing my videos? will this hel me with my every-day duties?" and so on. You can positively answer to all these questions even without such "modern" features, but providing the necessary applications.
I can agree, however, on the gaming issues: the isn't a modern and consolidated hardware 3D-accelerated API architecture in AmigaOSes, and this IS a show-stop issue. On the AROS side Deadwood is busy porting Gallium3D: maybe it would be a good idea if people form other Amiga dialects would join the effort and help to create a common 3D baseline for the whole platform.
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To have any chance of big success, one has to differentiate his product so much that it no longer is in the competition which is already mature. This was what was achieved with Amiga1000.
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Amiga doesn't do groundbreaking any more. Sorry.
@paolone
kolla said developers, OS 4's many, many missing features may or may not be a deal breaker for some users, but they are for developers. Have you ever thought about developing for modern machines? There's a whole host of features available that just aren't there for OS 4. It's far more difficult to develop for OS 4 and then the entire target audience would be able to be seated comfortably in your average McDonalds or Hungry Jacks...
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Sorry, but I don't agree here, Ok, there's no memory protection, there's no multi-user architecture, no Posix and no "whatever fancy feature you feel a question of life & death", but I don't think average people will ever list OS features and decide what to buy.
They will, instead, ask basic questions like "will this make me surf the web without issues? will this allow me playing my videos? will this hel me with my every-day duties?" and so on. You can positively answer to all these questions even without such "modern" features, but providing the necessary applications.
With the current number of Amiga users you are right, but IF (big if i know) it became a mainstream OS the lack of modern features would make it a hackers dream. We currently have security by obscurity but without protected memory, multi-user etc writing exploitations would be fairly simple and very dangerous online.
But as for a Amiga games console, thats probably the daftest proposal I've heard in a long time, does the proposer know that Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all sell there consoles at a loss relying on licensing software to generate income, the complete opposite to hyperions business model which is overpriced hardware and no software.
Gaz
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I think if the new Amiga is to be a succsess i would suggest that just like when the first A1000 came out back in 1985, the new Amiga must be GROUND BREAKING, not just a machine which can run OS4 etc...
They should design a games console, but more powerful than the Playstation3 or Xbox360 with better processing power, better graphics hardware etc...
This is dreaming. Those hobby, few ppl, low budget wannabe companies in Amigaland don't even have remotely the resourses to do so.
My stance on how a ppc Amigaish computer would have a slight chance to sustain its business would be to do a low cost, low power uptake, tiny system.
A G4 1200-1500MHz compares in overall performance quite good to an Atom. The Freescale 8610 would be the ideal basis for such an effort. Woud probably be a bit more expensive than an Atom based design, but if done right, not several *magnitudes* more expensive. And for sure it wouldn't change the IT world, but I would be pretty confident, there would be a fair chance it sustainable on the market.
Unfortunately A-eon chose the expensive route and thus pretty much a dead end. Amiga today is today not about high end (defenitely not), but about hobby, liking all those little differences, preference or simply being used to (as long time Amiga user). Of course there are ppl willing to spend serious money for that, but probably not enough to sustain a business on it. By targetting the hobby crowd (say a new system in Atom/Mac mini G4 class for 250 EUR) I am sure quite some maschines could be sold.
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My suggestion (not very original, I know): Integrated Minimig!
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Yep, the only thing protecting OS/4 from viruses and worms galore is obscurity. Remove that and you've got the perfect host. Fortunately there's really no danger of that....
With the current number of Amiga users you are right, but IF (big if i know) it became a mainstream OS the lack of modern features would make it a hackers dream. We currently have security by obscurity but without protected memory, multi-user etc writing exploitations would be fairly simple and very dangerous online.
But as for a Amiga games console, thats probably the daftest proposal I've heard in a long time, does the proposer know that Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all sell there consoles at a loss relying on licensing software to generate income, the complete opposite to hyperions business model which is overpriced hardware and no software.
Gaz
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Sorry, but I don't agree here, Ok, there's no memory protection, there's no multi-user architecture ... will this make me surf the web without issues?
Exactly - and there you are. Without memory protection and ability to set different security levels (aka "multiuser) there will be issues with "surf the web". Seriously, one cannot recommend any Amiga system for banking or whatever, since any application on the machine can read the memory of the browser and dig out whatever info they want.
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Exactly - and there you are. Without memory protection and ability to set different security levels (aka "multiuser) there will be issues with "surf the web". Seriously, one cannot recommend any Amiga system for banking or whatever, since any application on the machine can read the memory of the browser and dig out whatever info they want.
And also any rouge web session has access to the the entire system memory and storage.
It will be interesting if timberwolf is susceptible to firefox exploits that are out there. I for one wouldn't save any passwords within it and probably wouldn't use it with any authenticated session. But as I no longer have any OS4 systems its purely theoretical.
Gaz
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since any application on the machine can read the memory of the browser and dig out whatever info they want.
Shhh, that's how Hyperion plans to pay for all those X1000 boards.
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Assuming that they didn't care about backwards compatibility, how hard would it be to add memory protection? Is it a case of lacking manpower or are there actual design problems preventing it?
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hmmmmmmmm, instead of a suggestion, I have a question?
If those AMD k6-2-400 comparable sam440ep boxes cost ~1.000 euros, the new X1000 (that possible can be compared to a Pentium D) would cost how much????
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hmmmmmmmm, instead of a suggestion, I have a question?
If those AMD k6-2-400 comparable sam440ep boxes cost ~1.000 euros, the new X1000 (that possible can be compared to a Pentium D) would cost how much????
Maybe a k6 400 is a bit on the low side (I haven't seen any comparison benchmarks), but I doubt the 440 could keep up with a equivalent speed Celeron let alone a P3.
As we don't know what CPU is going to be on the X1000 (many have speculated) its difficult to guess but if i had to put money on it I'd say the Pentium D will runs ring around it.
As for price, my guess is £1200-£1500 (1950-2400 USD). But having owned a Sam and experienced the quality of OS4 I certainly won't be buying one anytime soon at any price.
Gaz
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A new advertising campaign -
Sam 440ep almost as powerful as an iPod touch but free of useful software
It would be very sneaky to go for honesty!
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/appletabletunicornengadget.jpg)
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A new advertising campaign -
Sam 440ep almost as powerful as an iPod touch but free of useful software
It would be very sneaky to go for honesty!
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/appletabletunicornengadget.jpg)
Terrific, where can I get one?:drink:
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I made that suggestion because i see it pointless spending so much money just to buy a system which ONLY has an OS to offer and nothing else. No apps, no games NOTHING! Well not nothing but not much.
It would be much more of a worthwhile system if it has a few killer apps and maybe at least just to start with one or two decent games which have some sort of name and not something unheard of.
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I made that suggestion because i see it pointless spending so much money just to buy a system which ONLY has an OS to offer and nothing else. No apps, no games NOTHING! Well not nothing but not much.
It would be much more of a worthwhile system if it has a few killer apps and maybe at least just to start with one or two decent games which have some sort of name and not something unheard of.
Agreed, If Hyper-ron really want to push the Amiga they need to invest in the applications to run on it. Whether that is funding developers to to port required software to AmigaOS (eg open office), or coming up with software on there own and marketing it independently from the OS (and I don't mean 10 year old PC games). Granted initially they won't see any return on investment but it depends on whether their business plan is to sell a few boards and copies of the OS, or to develop a computer platform.
Gaz
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I made that suggestion because i see it pointless spending so much money just to buy a system which ONLY has an OS to offer and nothing else. No apps, no games NOTHING! Well not nothing but not much.
So, now you have finally figured out that the AmigaOne X1000 will never be a mainstream system. Question you need to ask yourself is whether you find it worthwhile to buy one for yourself. And I guess you know already...
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I have read all and a lot but every one is missing the point look at 500 and the 1200 it is not a pc it was never meant to be so why does every one
try to make it look like one it was ahead of its time it all ways was one board that is where it should all start one board invent its own custom chip for graphics sound and processing every one who took over the Amiga just wanted to make quick cash didn't bring much new to the table the Minimig is the way to go but should made to act like a 1200 not a 600
just think you can put the 1200 on one chip your os 4 on a new chip but for the home one board if i wont some thing that looks like a pc i will get a pc and most of the big game houses started life on the the Amiga but thy wont the only things thy remember is $£ that's it at one point Sony where looking to buy the Amiga what if what if ..? i have £1.0000 the Passion just need the teck .... i have worked for psygnosis sony i used to make demos years ago still use the amiga to make music now and yes a pc to
the clue is in the name
any way rant dun www.soundclick.com/ensuk (http://www.soundclick.com/ensuk) :afro:
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As for price, my guess is £1200-£1500 (1950-2400 USD). But having owned a Sam and experienced the quality of OS4 I certainly won't be buying one anytime soon at any price.
Well, you did buy it knowing that the version of OS 4.1 that you got was a beta version. Update1 is a big improvement.
My suggestion to Hyperion would be to make sure that it works, and works well, and then start shipping it ASAP (and give me one). Get the hardware out to as many people as possible, especially developers. Investing in applications, games, or whatever can be done at any point, so there's no reason to delay.
Hans
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i have worked for psygnosis sony i used to make demos years ago still use the amiga to make music now and yes a pc to
the clue is in the name
any way rant dun www.soundclick.com/ensuk (http://www.soundclick.com/ensuk) :afro:
Hey, that's really great. You worked for Psygnosys before or after the sony buyout?
I still don't know why Sony left them working on the f1 franchise. IMHO, Psygnosys was not that good on racing games. And truth is, they recently lost the franchise to Codemasters (GRID, Dirt, etc...).
Wondering why "Shadow of the Beast" does not have modern versions like Metal Gear (MSX).... :)
*PS* I agree that no new Amiga could reach mainstream on any current niche: Gaming, Tablets, Smartphones, Desktops and etc... But maybe (with a lot of people getting old), it could be the king of the modern hobbyist computing niche...
Maybe they (we) should focus on SW tools that hobbysts like. Don't know what, maybe SDKs? Music Development tools (like Audacity, GarageBand)? Modern Deluxe Paint like editor?
Even OpenOffice would not be "that" usefull on OS4. Most of us will always have a decent notebook running Windows, Linux or OSX close enough to work on documents.
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I thought an old amiga dog like me could jump into this conversation
So, now you have finally figured out that the AmigaOne X1000 will never be a mainstream system. Question you need to ask yourself is whether you find it worthwhile to buy one for yourself. And I guess you know already...
That is very good statement; I think we all have to ask that question but also think about if others would do ask themselves the same.
I sincerely believe there is a silver (not golden) opportunity here for Amiga to jump into the hole between windows and the rest.
Because for regular users
1) Linux is just too complex
2) Apple is too expensive (and too closed for tinkerers)
3) Windows just simply cries out for an alternative
AmigaOS is just that; transparent, quick, cheap, fast and deep if you want it to be.
Right now, we all realise regular users want the internet, foto-video-music stuff, documentation work and the occasional game. Except for games that people can play on a console anyway, AmigaOS can cover.
In my opinion, and I think this is what Amiga has been planning anyway, Amiga should be on a smartphone. Like an iPhone. BUT hook it up to a screen, bluetooth to keyboard and a mouse and you have a desktop computer. Why? Because smartphones are more then fast enough to run AmigaOS, even more so, it will be lightning fast with a few seconds of (re)boot times.
Now that...would be sweet.
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No way is (new) AmigaOS cheap, software-wise or hardware-wise. Even Apple has them beat in that area.
edit: unless you're talking about the cheap AmigaOne I'm selling! http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51257
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Exactly - and there you are. Without memory protection and ability to set different security levels (aka "multiuser) there will be issues with "surf the web". Seriously, one cannot recommend any Amiga system for banking or whatever, since any application on the machine can read the memory of the browser and dig out whatever info they want.
Please don't confuse "ring0" with "root/administrator" priviledges. You can run things either in kernel/user space even if you have a single (administrator-like) user on the machine. And AmigaOS is definitely NOT a targeted to banking.
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Install Linux on your PS3 and that's what ya got right?
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Install Linux on your PS3 and that's what ya got right?
Hmm, this might be a silly suggestion but as the PS3 is PPC-based and has now had the other OS feature hacked. Couldn't Hyperion finish porting OS4 to it, put the PS3 hardware in an Amiga branded case bundling it with OS4 and maybe adding 500gb HD,keyboard etc., then sell this as a fairly decent computer(the X500?) which is also fully compatible with the playstation.
Even with all the peripherals I'm sure it could be sold for under £400, so it would be a cheap and powerful alternative to both and the games are already there.
Not sure about the legalities of that though.
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Since OS4 doesn't support SMP, the processor in the PS3 wouldn't be able to be utilized as designed and performance wouldn't be so great compared to Linux running on the same machine, if I understand how the PS3's CPU works.
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Since OS4 doesn't support SMP, the processor in the PS3 wouldn't be able to be utilized as designed and performance wouldn't be so great compared to Linux running on the same machine, if I understand how the PS3's CPU works.
Yeah, but that's being worked on at the moment isn't it?
AmigaOS 4.2
"This will be new release of the AmigaOS, and will most likely not be free. For this one, Hyperion is planning to do some serious plumbing work. SMP support is planned, but this will probably not be completed entirely for the 4.2 release - massive changes like this usually span a number of releases"
(from OS News.com)
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That probably means the PS3's will be on the used market and the PS4 (or maybe even PS5!) on sale before they have anything done.
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Yeah, but that's being worked on at the moment isn't it?
AmigaOS 4.2
"This will be new release of the AmigaOS, and will most likely not be free. For this one, Hyperion is planning to do some serious plumbing work. SMP support is planned, but this will probably not be completed entirely for the 4.2 release - massive changes like this usually span a number of releases"
(from OS News.com)
I'm afraid that was just common misinterpretation of what ssolie said in his presentation.
So my big problem with your "roadmap" is that it isn't a roadmap at all. After 4.1.1 nothing more has been announced by Hyperion.
(Ref: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29845&forum=14&start=120&139#517864 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29845&forum=14&start=120&139#517864))
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Yeah, lol, everything on the Amiga takes so long. But he did state that SMP support is one of their targets.I recall one of the programmers stating that the PS3 port would be relatively straight forward so I still say that this is what they should do if they can do so legally. I would definately buy one, I'm sure other people would be interested and they do have up to 30 developers working on OS4 according to the same article . Surely a modern system that plays PS3 games as well as having the computing elements and a large hard-drive at a low price point is a lot more appealing than the current "overpriced and underpowered" Amiga hardware.
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I guess if they're not going to do the MacMini the PS3 is a decent target for easy to get hardware.
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Since OS4 doesn't support SMP, the processor in the PS3 wouldn't be able to be utilized as designed and performance wouldn't be so great compared to Linux running on the same machine, if I understand how the PS3's CPU works.
The Cell BE processor in the PS3 only has one central processor. The SPEs are simplified specialized coprocessors that are designed to run tasks parallel to the the central processor. I'm not even sure that Linux (on the PS3) uses the SPEs.
As such, SMP support isn't a requirement on the PS3. I'm sure drivers could be written that would allow simple background tasks to be farmed out to the SPEs without requiring true multiprocessing support.