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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Gulliver on January 19, 2010, 10:48:02 PM

Title: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Gulliver on January 19, 2010, 10:48:02 PM
The Good things about the Atari

The CT60/CT63 accelerator can achieve 105 mhz with 68060 cpu and can hold up to 512 MB of PC-100 (7ns ram).

They have the Hades Atari 68k clone

The Coldfire Atari project has a booting prototype and a reasonable goal.

They have a very cool open source browser that supports CSS called HighWire (works on 68k an does not require a GFX card!)

They already have a free opensource operating system clone, and an also opensource TOS ROM (kickstart).

At 23 GBP you can get an ethernet for an Atari


Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: goldfish on January 19, 2010, 11:17:43 PM
Can it multi task?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 19, 2010, 11:23:40 PM
Quote from: goldfish;539212
Can it multi task?


Yay! It's like being back in 1991!
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Karlos on January 19, 2010, 11:28:07 PM
Quote from: goldfish;539212
Can it multi task?


I guess it'll run MultiTOS and probably an m68k Linux too.

I always liked the CT60 cards, seems a shame nobody made something like that for the A1200.

There doesn't seem to be a single 040/060 card for the amiga1200 in which the CPU is connected properly to memory (by which I mean in a fashion that the limit to memory IO is actually the CPU and not the bus).
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: redrumloa on January 19, 2010, 11:39:29 PM
IMO we could learn something from the Commodore 8bit market. Most users accepted the platform as a retro hobby 15+ years ago. Many Amiga users (and companies) still expect the Amiga to take over the world, which is far too unrealistic of a goal.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Karlos on January 19, 2010, 11:48:37 PM
Quote from: redrumloa;539218
IMO we could learn something from the Commodore 8bit market. Most users accepted the platform as a retro hobby 15+ years ago. Many Amiga users (and companies) still expect the Amiga to take over the world, which is far too unrealistic of a goal.


Surely nobody left is that naive?

For instance, Hyperion market OS4.x with the "Remember when computing was fun?" line. That doesn't tend to suggest they feel it's going to be a workplace contender to me.

Speaking of 8-bit, did any of you guys ever check out the BMOW (big mess of wires) project?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: playgeneration on January 20, 2010, 12:08:08 AM
amiga is way too fractured, with 68k, aros, UAE, OS4, MorphOS...
if everyone had stuck to concentrating on 68k then we would have more of this cools stuff.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: huronking on January 20, 2010, 01:17:15 AM
Quote from: Tension;539213
Yay! It's like being back in 1991!


But it has built-in midi :D :D :D
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Moto on January 20, 2010, 01:18:55 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;539218
IMO we could learn something from the Commodore 8bit market. Most users accepted the platform as a retro hobby 15+ years ago. Many Amiga users (and companies) still expect the Amiga to take over the world, which is far too unrealistic of a goal.
I completely agree with you.  I've been back in the Amiga scene for about 5 months and I've gotta say that things are really weird around here.  On the one hand, you've got some really smart and friendly people who really make this community shine.   But on the other, I see a lot of hate filled, mean people who are so quick to slam others.  And as you said, it's a hobby.  People have hobbies to relax and have fun, right?  So why all the 'tudes around here?  We really could learn a lot from the Atari, Apple and 8bit Commodore users.  It would be nice if we had a unified front some day.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 20, 2010, 01:33:27 AM
Quote from: huronking;539236
But it has built-in midi :D :D :D


Yea but it has joystick ports UNDERNEATH it!!  :lol:

Aaaaah, this brings me back  :)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: save2600 on January 20, 2010, 01:39:32 AM
OMG true story... just landed a complete original Atari 520ST system. All like new in the box. SF354 drive, SC1224 monitor and the system. Thought it would be cool to add to the museum. I gots to tell you... as far as any comparison to the Amiga 1000 - this thing is total and complete utter shite!  The TOS or GEM (or whatever it is called) is barely useable. I still haven't found a way to rename a folder you created. This system (albeit I'm sure an early one) is a total joke, even compared to AmigaOS 1.1. You'd have to be a total die-hard Atari fan to even think this thing stood a chance.

And that external disk drive that needs it's own brick power supply... Oh... and get this... it's only a single sided drive! 360kb of worthless technology right there. This thing is little more than a friggin' door stop or bookend to me.

The SC1224 monitor... with it's gigantic 12" screen... Find me an ST user that'll talk about the 1 inch border around it that the GEM "desktop" sits comfortably in... lol  For a rollout system, this thing is a total joke.

BTW: funny how even boxed (which all three "pieces" are) - this amounts to about $40 worth of ST stuff. :lol:

ST users are about the goofiest bunch of classic computing users you'll ever meet. I once had a Mega 2 system that everyone "wanted" AND advertised in an Atari specific forum, but nobody really had the cash for it. It had a VGA card, 16mhz Accelerator and a SCSI card all built in. Because the Atari people were soooooo loopy, I decided to strip the damn thing to its bare essentials and sold off the lot piece by piece. That bit of mental retardation brought in about 6x the amount I was originally asking to be done with the whole system. We all know stuff like this is worth more separately, but c'mon... that was just plain ridiculous.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: tone007 on January 20, 2010, 01:41:16 AM
I've got an identical boxed ST setup, it's all I can do to keep from leaving it out for the trash man.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 20, 2010, 01:42:39 AM
Quote from: tone007;539246
I've got an identical boxed ST setup, it's all I can do to keep from leaving it out for the trash man.


The wedge makes for a good doorstep.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: save2600 on January 20, 2010, 01:50:02 AM
Not trying to be an ass (although its often unavoidable), but I do seriously use a 520 as a doorstop... and it works just fine! lol
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: mdivancic on January 20, 2010, 02:11:07 AM
Quote from: save2600;539243
ST users are about the goofiest bunch of classic computing users you'll ever meet. I once had a Mega 2 system that everyone "wanted" AND advertised in an Atari specific forum, but nobody really had the cash for it. It had a VGA card, 16mhz Accelerator and a SCSI card all built in. Because the Atari people were soooooo loopy, I decided to strip the damn thing to its bare essentials and sold off the lot piece by piece. That bit of mental retardation brought in about 6x the amount I was originally asking to be done with the whole system. We all know stuff like this is worth more separately, but c'mon... that was just plain ridiculous.


And this is different from us Amiga users how?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: save2600 on January 20, 2010, 02:13:15 AM
Quote from: mdivancic;539250
And this is different from us Amiga users how?

Amiga users generally have a LOT more disposable income for this junk... lol

BTW: I was only originally asking $85-$100 for that Mega ST 2  ;)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: spihunter on January 20, 2010, 02:15:33 AM
Yea, That is a big divide in the Amiga world.... Not only are we fractured between red/blue/aros but there is also the big crowd here that is just into retro Amiga....


This is an interesting thread cause I did just go look at what was going on in Atari retro world these days! :)


Quote from: redrumloa;539218
IMO we could learn something from the Commodore 8bit market. Most users accepted the platform as a retro hobby 15+ years ago. Many Amiga users (and companies) still expect the Amiga to take over the world, which is far too unrealistic of a goal.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: NovaCoder on January 20, 2010, 02:17:26 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;539205
The Good things about the Atari

The CT60/CT63 accelerator can achieve 105 mhz with 68060 cpu and can hold up to 512 MB of PC-100 (7ns ram).


Yep I think it's a shame, it would be great if I could buy a new 68060 100mhz card for my 1200 :(
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: spihunter on January 20, 2010, 02:19:17 AM
Amiga users have way too much freaking money!!!. I'm constantly shocked by what people pay for stuff on ebay.....I will never buy another piece of retro Amiga stuff again.. Its insanity!!!



Quote from: save2600;539251
Amiga users generally have a LOT more disposable income for this junk... lol

BTW: I was only originally asking $85-$100 for that Mega ST 2  ;)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: koaftder on January 20, 2010, 02:39:52 AM
amiga > atari

teeheee

But seriously, I mean it.

(lots of love for atari fans though)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Debaser on January 20, 2010, 02:48:16 AM
Quote from: spihunter;539252
Yea, That is a big divide in the Amiga world.... Not only are we fractured between red/blue/aros but there is also the big crowd here that is just into retro Amiga....


This is an interesting thread cause I did just go look at what was going on in Atari retro world these days! :)


I have recently checked them out to see what is going on as well actually. Funny thing is - I couldn't really find a popular hub/forum for Atari-land that seemed to have some excitement or at least interesting conversation. Am I blind???
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 20, 2010, 02:52:57 AM
Quote from: Debaser;539258
I have recently checked them out to see what is going on as well actually. Funny thing is - I couldn't really find a popular hub/forum for Atari-land that seemed to have some excitement or at least interesting conversation. Am I blind???


Yea, I remember reading a few years ago that thew Atari scene was finally dead.

Not Amiga-like dead, but actually DEAD.

A quick glance at atari.org seems to confirm this.

Although I had no love for the ST, it is quite sad that the scene is finally over  :(
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: save2600 on January 20, 2010, 02:53:43 AM
Quote from: Debaser;539258
I couldn't really find a popular hub/forum for Atari-land that seemed to have some excitement or at least interesting conversation. Am I blind???

Nope, don't fret. You're not blind! Hell, there's more going on in the TRS-80, TI-99/4A and Apple ][+ worlds than 16-bit Atari currently ;)

Let's not forget something... the Atari ST was designed from the ground up to be a utilitarian/appliance type computer. Cheap computing for cheap bastards. That was Idek Tramielski's first, foremost and ONLY game plan since founding Commodore. Mass quantity sales worked for systems like the C=64, but by the time that the second and third generation of home computing hit, that ideology was quickly becoming obsolete. People wanted something either REALLY different or something VERY similar. These are just my opinions and observations growing up with the stuff mind you and there's a ton of idiosyncrasies and other managerial/marketing type decisions going on - but... (and it doesn't matter that Atari designers designed the Amiga) fact remains that once Tramiel left Commodore and fled to Atari, it was pretty much the beginning of the end for both companies. Their management (at both corporations) were so out of touch that it wasn't funny. Neither really knew how to market what they had. Especially Commodore. Atari ruined their reputation with retailers and users alike between shitty relations with corporate buyers to the fact the average consumer wasn't going to be duped by Atari's (and to a lesser extenet: Commodore's) rehashing of obsolete computer shite.

Put simply: you don't continue to market 8-bit computing when you're trying to sell 16/32-bit computers. Never works, ever worked, and still wouldn't work. These guys were awful communicators and weren't really into the biz for computing in the first place. Especially Atari. Look at their ridiculously repackaged 8-bit crap (since the 800): the entire XL/XE line. Then there was the XEGS (joke), the 8-bit computer sans keyboard gaming console otherwise known as the 5200. 7800 was a joke compared to the NES and the Lynx was even plagued by a shitty/blurry screen (great hardware otherwise, designed by Amiga people). Oh, can't forget about the folly that was the Jaguar...  :lol:  

C= had their share of retardation by releasing the 128 around the same time as Amiga and the rebranding of the C64c but at least they made far fewer model mistakes than Atari. Guess they always considered themselves competition, which was too bad. Competing against yourself NEVER works. Not in the 80's or 90's anyway. And we're not talking about auto's either. Perfect example of what I'm trying to convey is how GM and Chrysler dropped a few lines each. Why? Because they had too many brands that were ALL the same. Hardly any variance and people knew that.

Bottom line: no such thing as product loyalty anymore. Not since the floodgates of cheap ass disposable consumer electronics were made possible thanks to the administration of Silly Billy Clinton ;)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Debaser on January 20, 2010, 02:58:31 AM
Quote from: Tension;539259
Yea, I remember reading a few years ago that thew Atari scene was finally dead.

Not Amiga-like dead, but actually DEAD.

A quick glance at atari.org seems to confirm this.

Although I had no love for the ST, it is quite sad that the scene is finally over  :(


Yeah.. hmmm well..... #!*& them anyhow. Hehe
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 20, 2010, 03:19:46 AM
Quote from: save2600;539260

C= had their share of retardation by releasing the 128 around the same time as Amiga and the rebranding of the C64c but at least they made far fewer model mistakes than Atari. Guess they always considered themselves competition, which was too bad. Competing against yourself NEVER works. Not in the 80's or 90's anyway. And we're not talking about auto's either. Perfect example of what I'm trying to convey is how GM and Chrysler dropped a few lines each. Why? Because they had too many brands that were ALL the same. Hardly any variance and people knew that.

Bottom line: no such thing as product loyalty anymore. Not since the floodgates of cheap ass disposable consumer electronics were made possible thanks to the administration of Silly Billy Clinton ;)


Never mind that, CBM were selling bloddy PC's at the same time as they were "selling" the Amiga line.

Commodore didn't release Amigas - They escaped!!
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: save2600 on January 20, 2010, 03:26:51 AM
Quote from: Tension;539265
Never mind that, CBM were selling bloddy PC's at the same time as they were "selling" the Amiga line.

Commodore didn't release Amigas - They escaped!!

LOL! How in the hell could I forget that?!? The PC10 and PC20 I think they were called. Not really marketed over here in the States though... mostly an overseas scam, were they not...  lol

Just remembered something... believe it or not, I saw Commodore's PC compatibles behind glass, marketed and for sale at the Toys 'R Us stores in Chicagoland back in the day. Talk about brand and marketing confusion.  :lol:
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: kolla on January 20, 2010, 04:51:51 AM
You guys live under rocks, obviously even I know more about the current Atari community, which is somewhat scary. The least you can do is to try out Aranym with AFROS to see what relatively modern Atari usage is about: http://aranym.sourceforge.net/
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: kolla on January 20, 2010, 05:01:44 AM
Quote from: Karlos;539221
Surely nobody left is that naive?
Sadly, lots.

Quote
For instance, Hyperion market OS4.x with the "Remember when computing was fun?" line. That doesn't tend to suggest they feel it's going to be a workplace contender to me.

It's their "selling mantra" for "outsiders", an attempt to delude people into thinking that "amiga is back", and there's plenty of people in the "community" who buys into this, sadly. It's like a mental hospital with Hyperion (currently) as the local Napoleon, allthough with Hyperion I have this feeling that they are playing with the other patients minds on purpose to generate some profit.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: beller on January 20, 2010, 06:31:34 AM
Quote from: save2600;539266
LOL! How in the hell could I forget that?!? The PC10 and PC20 I think they were called. Not really marketed over here in the States though... mostly an overseas scam, were they not...  lol

Just remembered something... believe it or not, I saw Commodore's PC compatibles behind glass, marketed and for sale at the Toys 'R Us stores in Chicagoland back in the day. Talk about brand and marketing confusion.  :lol:


Actually, I owned a Commodore PC 10 which I carted into work since the powers that be had deemed it ok to put the computer in a room and let 10 people fight to use it!  Glad those days are gone.  It wasn't a bad machine for the time, CGA graphics and all.  I eventually upgraded it to a '286 before I sold it!

Great thread! I've made no attempt to hide the fact that I prefer the retro side of life.  In fact, I find myself beating on the 64c and SX-64 lately, and more than I've been using the Amigas I have.  While I love the thought of a 4.x Amiga system, I'm not about to pay the price required for admission...

Brand confusion is a perfect term for what's going on in the Amiga world these days.  Which, ultimately, is part of the reason the Amiga had trouble finding a market in the 80s and 90s.  The clone PC was for work, the Mac for desktop publishing, and the Amiga chased desperately for a niche until NewTek attempted to tackle the desktop video market in the 90s. Too bad that video production didn't have the impact on users that personal publishing did.    

Commodore's friendly image translated to "toy computers" in the US and they never really shook that image in the mass market here.  A sad story we all know...

Bob
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: recidivist on January 20, 2010, 06:45:36 AM
A  lot of the old C64 ganes are just right for those who want something fun and not too darn complicated if only the slow loading of the nest portion can be bypassed with jiffyDos or better some solid state drive.The C64 people only expect to have FUN with their stufflthey don't hope to become a major market force.

Why are some here bashing the Atari users?If you don't like that stuff,then don't buy it.(I have  both 520 and 1040 plus  some 800s;and it  seemed to me that Atari niche was musicians at the same time Amiga niche was video.)Now the sound cards in x86 PCs have more processor than the whole computer of the early 80s)Things change.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: beller on January 20, 2010, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: recidivist;539296
A  lot of the old C64 ganes are just right for those who want something fun and not too darn complicated if only the slow loading of the nest portion can be bypassed with jiffyDos or better some solid state drive.The C64 people only expect to have FUN with their stufflthey don't hope to become a major market force.

Why are some here bashing the Atari users?If you don't like that stuff,then don't buy it.(I have  both 520 and 1040 plus  some 800s;and it  seemed to me that Atari niche was musicians at the same time Amiga niche was video.)Now the sound cards in x86 PCs have more processor than the whole computer of the early 80s)Things change.


I remember the first time I used the 64 again after 20+ years, I remembered the slow loads but I'd forgotten how slow they really were.  Makes you appreciate just about every other computer.  Haven't gone to jiffydos, but my FastLoad cart does get a workout!

Atari certainly went after musicians.  My recollection is that they were the only system with midi built-in at the time.  Musicians, given the choice, usually went with the ST.  No need to hate, the wars are long over!  Can't we all just get along! ;>
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 20, 2010, 04:59:43 PM
Quote from: kolla;539274
You guys live under rocks, obviously even I know more about the current Atari community, which is somewhat scary. The least you can do is to try out Aranym with AFROS to see what relatively modern Atari usage is about: http://aranym.sourceforge.net/


lol
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Varthall on January 20, 2010, 05:07:37 PM
Quote from: kolla;539276
Sadly, lots.
It's their "selling mantra" for "outsiders", an attempt to delude people into thinking that "amiga is back", and there's plenty of people in the "community" who buys into this, sadly. It's like a mental hospital with Hyperion (currently) as the local Napoleon, allthough with Hyperion I have this feeling that they are playing with the other patients minds on purpose to generate some profit.

I am one of those people who has bought, and supports Hyperion's products. I find it funny that you have that opinion about me and other users without even knowing why I have made this choice. It's either this, or for strange reason you think that people like me shouldn't enjoy using OS4.x, and/or shouldn't spend their money on products they're interested in.

Varthall
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: beller on January 20, 2010, 10:38:12 PM
Quote from: Tension;539371
lol


I discovered a site a few years ago that made me think about checking out the Atari ST systems.  The site, http://www.myatari.com has everything (literally) Atari in either new or used condition.  How do they have new STs?  They build them, apparently from parts.  It seems they grabbed the warehouse when Atari first closed.

Heck they even have new Lynx systems!

Wish we had an Amiga related store with a similar retro stock!  As I said, I almost bought an ST just to see what I'd been avoiding since the '80s!

Bob
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: huronking on January 20, 2010, 11:32:16 PM
All joking aside, the ST was mighty stable and smooth as a powerful midi sequencer. I mean, seriously- it was solid enough to use on stage (it was up to you how to mount it in a rack out of sight) back then, something the PC still isnt reliable enough for.

It didnt do much else very well, but I have to give it props as a midi platform.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 20, 2010, 11:51:12 PM
Quote from: huronking;539453
All joking aside, the ST was mighty stable and smooth as a powerful midi sequencer. I mean, seriously- it was solid enough to use on stage (it was up to you how to mount it in a rack out of sight) back then, something the PC still isnt reliable enough for.

It didnt do much else very well, but I have to give it props as a midi platform.



Yeah.  It's basically a glorified Sequencer.

An Alesis MMT-8, only with a sh1tty screen included.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: koaftder on January 21, 2010, 12:34:38 AM
Quote from: huronking;539453
All joking aside, the ST was mighty stable and  something the PC still isnt reliable enough for.


Somebody needs to send Aphex Twin an email and let him know about that, he's been using PC's running windows on stage for years.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Crom00 on January 21, 2010, 03:30:25 AM
Quote from: koaftder;539460
Somebody needs to send Aphex Twin an email and let him know about that, he's been using PC's running windows on stage for years.


When you control the environment and use a PC for one task it's stable. Uber picky TV networks that frown and scoff on NewTek's VIDEO TOASTER AMIGA legacy are using the Tricaster and love it due to it's stability. The reason it's stable is becuase it's a controlled Windows environment combined with stable tested hardware used for just one task.

If you install other 3rd party software you void the warranty.

And yes I prefer the Amiga and all that good stuff but I think a lot of folks make comments here yet how many have used the PC or heck Amiga to pay the rent?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: coldfish on January 21, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
With the benefit of emulation it's now pretty easy to compare these old 16bit systems.  What's surprising is how similar many ST versions of games are to Amiga.  Of course OS junkies will say Amiga OS is better, but for the rest of us many games aren't that different.

Makes me question if the custom hardware approach to system design was really so much better than cheap 'n cheerful off-the-shelf.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Vulture on January 21, 2010, 10:08:47 AM
@coldfish

Many games are pretty similar, that's true, but that's only because they were directly ported from ST to Amiga.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: kolla on January 21, 2010, 11:50:17 AM
Quote from: Varthall;539375
I am one of those people who has bought, and supports Hyperion's products. I find it funny that you have that opinion about me and other users without even knowing why I have made this choice. It's either this, or for strange reason you think that people like me shouldn't enjoy using OS4.x, and/or shouldn't spend their money on products they're interested in.

Varthall


You missunderstood me, I was probably using the wrong words. With "bought into" I didnt mean their products, but their ... gospel.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Varthall on January 21, 2010, 12:13:52 PM
Quote from: kolla;539521
You missunderstood me, I was probably using the wrong words. With "bought into" I didnt mean their products, but their ... gospel.

Aha, sorry for that then. I think also that their marketing approach is a bit too much geared towards creating hype. At least I'm usually immune to marketing blurb :-)

Varthall
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: redrumloa on January 21, 2010, 01:02:00 PM
Quote from: Moto;539239
I completely agree with you. I've been back in the Amiga scene for about 5 months and I've gotta say that things are really weird around here. On the one hand, you've got some really smart and friendly people who really make this community shine. But on the other, I see a lot of hate filled, mean people who are so quick to slam others. And as you said, it's a hobby. People have hobbies to relax and have fun, right? So why all the 'tudes around here? We really could learn a lot from the Atari, Apple and 8bit Commodore users. It would be nice if we had a unified front some day.

Well actually when it come to people's attitudes, the Commodore 8bit community is no different. Many people are very helpful, but there are very angry hate filled individuals who explode, rant and attack others at the first opportunity. I have not heard a better explanation than Nerd Rage, so it is either that or  Internet Tough Guy Syndrome.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: countzero on January 21, 2010, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: coldfish;539512
With the benefit of emulation it's now pretty easy to compare these old 16bit systems.  What's surprising is how similar many ST versions of games are to Amiga.  Of course OS junkies will say Amiga OS is better, but for the rest of us many games aren't that different.

me thinks somebody hasn't seen Shadow of the Beast on ST :afro:

or Great Giana sisters ... A platform game with no scrolling ! :laughing: even c64 does a better job !
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: ChaosLord on January 21, 2010, 01:39:47 PM
With the benefit of emulation it's now pretty easy to compare these old systems. What's surprising is how many ST  games are complete crap compared to Amiga.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Linde on January 21, 2010, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;539530
With the benefit of emulation it's now pretty easy to compare these old systems. What's surprising is how many ST  games are complete crap compared to Amiga.


Now you're just being ridiculous. The Amiga has the same great/crap ratio as the ST... Infinitesimally close to zero... However there are a few greats for both platforms, and many of them are even shared.

And to all the people going on about how the Amiga is superior, the OS is superior etc. to the ST: If you are picking a platform to be zealous about based on how the hardware performed and the usability of the operating system, you would have forgotten about the Amiga long ago.

And to those doubting the musical uses of the ST: I have yet to see a PC output MIDI as stable and jitter-free as the ST or Amiga. Of course, I have only used MIDI sequencers on the PC in full-blown multitasking environments, but it should mean something, at least.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: beller on January 21, 2010, 06:06:28 PM
I reviewed way too many Amiga games during my magazine writing days.  It was a pleasure to get a new F-18 or Lemmings or some other great game.  Most, however, were utter cr#p.  Idiotic scenerios, bad graphics.  Yuck!

Unfortunely, early on most writers learn that you have to say something positive in order to get published and (best part) paid.  I tried to find something good to say about the game.  "Yes it's utter shite, but at least the smell is sweet!"

I'm glad most games give you a demo to try out these days!  Helps seperate the good stuff from that to be avoided!  And, hey, someone out there probably loved the game anyway.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: HiroProX on January 29, 2010, 12:51:03 AM
What we can learn from the ST crowd....

1. Something like CT60/63 would be awesome for the A1200.

2. Something like the NetBee would end the cries of "How do I get ethernet on an A500!?"

3. How to lose half of your screen space to a huge black border.:laughing: Seriously, what was TTL/Atari Corp. smoking?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Gulliver on January 29, 2010, 01:18:41 AM
3- They were smoking a workaround for NTSC vs PAL issues on games. It was a good solution back then, but surely, not a great one today!
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: kickstart on January 29, 2010, 02:09:22 AM
Quote from: playgeneration;539224
amiga is way too fractured, with 68k, aros, UAE, OS4, MorphOS...
if everyone had stuck to concentrating on 68k then we would have more of this cools stuff.


Yeah, thats the point imho...

At present days maybe atari have the worst games compares to the amiga but the hardware scene seems cool on the atari side, we (amigans) speak about future but future is not for the amiga computer, maybe is more fun 68k world with new hardware like this atari projects than amigaone x1000.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 29, 2010, 02:12:04 AM
Quote from: kickstart;540521
Yeah, thats the point imho...

At present days maybe atari have the worst games compares to the amiga but the hardware scene seems cool on the atari side, we (amigans) speak about future but future is not for the amiga computer, maybe is more fun 68k world with new hardware like this atari projects than amigaone x1000.


But there only are 3 Atari users in the whole wide world these days.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Gulliver on January 29, 2010, 02:24:23 AM
Maybe there are only three Atari users around, but surely they are doing something!

The Amiga has what? Like 1k-5k users?, being much more less productive. If you measure the good aspects of a scene by its size, then leave the Amiga and go for Macs or even better PCs :)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: kickstart on January 29, 2010, 02:25:53 AM
@tension

3 atari users... then my congratulations, 3 users and 68060 up to 100mhz, coldfire...

PS: I dont have any atari machine and im not on the atari scene.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: persia on January 29, 2010, 02:30:42 AM
So anyonw gonna buy an Atari Atari Flashback 2+ (http://atari.com/games/atari_flashback2_plus)?

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2382/2044882608_d9fb33b262.jpg)
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 29, 2010, 02:32:56 AM
Quote from: kickstart;540525
@tension

3 atari users... then my congratulations, 3 users and 68060 up to 100mhz, coldfire...

PS: I dont have any atari machine and im not on the atari scene.


Good news!!  I have located the 3 Atari users!!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=18624709872
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Hell Labs on January 29, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
Quote from: persia;540527
So anyonw gonna buy an Atari Atari Flashback 2+ (http://atari.com/games/atari_flashback2_plus)?

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2382/2044882608_d9fb33b262.jpg)

price?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: beller on January 29, 2010, 05:14:09 PM
Thanks, Persia but I've got one myself with very low hours.  I picked up a refurb'd 2600 from 4Jays.net.  Then I won one with a bazillion carts on EBay for $40....all this to play Kaboom!

Heck, I've even got the original Atari Flashback which was really really bad!  The II has great joysticks with Atari plugs if you like that style.   No STs here....never had one!
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Hell Labs on January 29, 2010, 06:38:42 PM
Did you know the flashback II is actually designed to have a cart slot added by the user? You have to wonder if atari wanted that there or the engineers slipped it in.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Crom00 on January 29, 2010, 06:49:12 PM
The guys who design these know that hobbyists will want to tinker with these so it doesn't really cost anything to call out the pins for a cartridge port or extra ports like on the c64 tvgame.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: dougal on January 29, 2010, 08:51:54 PM
Its true the older ST and Amiga games may have looked quite alike but believe me they sounded nothing like each other.

The sound from the ST is shit compared to the Amiga. ST sounds more like older 8bit systems in practically all games whilst the Amiga sounds so much nicer and cleaner.

I know what im talking about as besides my Amiga's i actually also have a 'door stop' 1040STe.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Hell Labs on January 29, 2010, 09:11:37 PM
ST sound is hilariously bad. coupled with a screen resolution where the file menu used the entire screen and it's a wonder why people didn't just buy an amiga and put in a midi card.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: dougal on January 29, 2010, 09:24:54 PM
Quote from: Hell Labs;540622
ST sound is hilariously bad. coupled with a screen resolution where the file menu used the entire screen and it's a wonder why people didn't just buy an amiga and put in a midi card.


So true...  Try the music of Ninja Warriors or Xenon2 and compare them between the ST and Amiga. And that is just 2 games out of 100's.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Steril707 on January 29, 2010, 11:16:28 PM
It's really a peaceful experience to browse and post in Atariforums. Non of the  hatemongering that is so prevalent in Amiga forums, whichever one you look.

And, they get things done. They have their "Natami" (the "Coldari") already built, and OS and other stuff running on it, they have Memory Protection in MinT since the 90ies, etc etc etc... When the Coldari got announced, lots of coders of famous Atari-software of old started porting their stuff (like Papyrus, GFA Basic etc) to the new platform, simply because they love it.

On the Amiga, when the platform died in the middle 90ies, almost everybody went to something more profitable and didn't look back ever.

 
Plus, the Atari scene is not fractured into tiny pieces like the Amiga scene is...

What is it worth to be more people around, when in reality, you are just a much more tiny fraction among many, infighting with some other dweebs about who has the right answer to which Amiga system is the right one to have?


Amiga dweebs could learn a lot from Atari fans these days.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Karlos on January 30, 2010, 12:16:48 AM
Quote from: Hell Labs;540622
ST sound is hilariously bad. coupled with a screen resolution where the file menu used the entire screen and it's a wonder why people didn't just buy an amiga and put in a midi card.


Not so on the Falcon, though. There were apps that could do multi channel 16-bit 44kHz audio all mixed realtime on the DSP.

Shame about the 16-bit CPU bus though. Capital crime, should have had at least a wedge of 32-bit wide memory even if it was only for the CPU and not accessible by the rest of the hardware.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: desiv on January 30, 2010, 04:34:40 AM
Quote from: Steril707;540661
It's really a peaceful experience to browse and post in Atariforums. Non of the  hatemongering that is so prevalent in Amiga forums, whichever one you look.

Where is that?  I'd love to see that.

You just get hammered at Atariage.  And I think they have some of the greatest people and info there.
I've been a member there longer than most of the users.

But it gets really bad.

Too bad,  because I like all computers, but I admit I'm an Amiga guy.
I'd like to learn more about the ST (have one I'm not using).
But it's so aggressive there, I've just about given up on it.

Now, I still spend time there on the non-ST forums, and it's pretty nice.

I have more than a few systems (and a couple of old Arcade machines) and it's great for that.

Recently, I mentioned that I picked up an ST without knowing that some of them didn't have RF or composite out, so I'm not using it.  I was kind of thinking I'd get some advice....

I got slammed for being an Amiga fanboy.  
Someone tried to back me up and said one thing wrong (he thought the early STs all came without RF/composite) and they slammed him as well.

Now, Amiga people tend to be snobs and pretty condescending to ST people too.  You can see it in this thread.  :-)

Some things never change...
:(:(

I actually did admire the ST and wanted to play with it.
It beat the Amiga to the Market.  GEM, although not my favorite, was more complete that early AmigaOS  (Because they rushed out the AmigaOS after the original one wasn't going to work).
It was much less expensive and a very capable computer.
Some of the games are really great...
The hires mono display was very professional (although not being able to run lo-res/med-res games on it was a bit weird).

I appreciated the ST, but at least over there, you're not allowed to like both.  You have to hate the Amiga or you are a fan boy.
I expect a bit, I mean it is an Atari website.  :-)  But they get downright mean.  IMHO.

So, an open forum would be great to know about...

desiv
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: redrumloa on January 30, 2010, 05:07:43 AM
Quote from: desiv;540709

Recently, I mentioned that I picked up an ST without knowing that some of them didn't have RF or composite out, so I'm not using it.  I was kind of thinking I'd get some advice....

I got slammed for being an Amiga fanboy.  
Someone tried to back me up and said one thing wrong (he thought the early STs all came without RF/composite) and they slammed him as well.

Nerd rage, it infects all retro communities it seems.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: leszeka33 on January 30, 2010, 06:44:32 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;539205
Isnt there something we can learn from them?

Atari Falcon chips has chunky mode, AGA has not.
Therefore, writing software for the Atari with the original chips, may still be a nice enjoyable hobby and give much joy.
When writing software for the Amiga with original chips done by Commodore  is humiliating hard boring work.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Tension on January 30, 2010, 08:25:49 PM
Quote from: leszeka33;540773
Atari Falcon chips has chunky mode, AGA has not.
Therefore, writing software for the Atari with the original chips, may still be a nice enjoyable hobby and give much joy.
When writing software for the Amiga with original chips done by Commodore  is humiliating hard boring work.


Does Akiko on the CD32 make it easier?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: leszeka33 on January 31, 2010, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: Tension;540785
Does Akiko on the CD32 make it easier?

It is still the question of the speed of the system itself Akiko, its impact on the rest of the system.
In addition, in 640x400 16 bit mode, Atari Falcon, the individual pixels are not dependent on other pixels, so write software for this mode is much easier to write software for the Amiga HAM8 mode, and greatly cut the amount of work needed to write software.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: countzero on January 31, 2010, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: Steril707;540661
It's really a peaceful experience to browse and post in Atariforums. Non of the  hatemongering that is so prevalent in Amiga forums, whichever one you look.

And, they get things done. They have their "Natami" (the "Coldari") already built, and OS and other stuff running on it, they have Memory Protection in MinT since the 90ies, etc etc etc... When the Coldari got announced, lots of coders of famous Atari-software of old started porting their stuff (like Papyrus, GFA Basic etc) to the new platform, simply because they love it.

On the Amiga, when the platform died in the middle 90ies, almost everybody went to something more profitable and didn't look back ever.

 
Plus, the Atari scene is not fractured into tiny pieces like the Amiga scene is...

What is it worth to be more people around, when in reality, you are just a much more tiny fraction among many, infighting with some other dweebs about who has the right answer to which Amiga system is the right one to have?


Amiga dweebs could learn a lot from Atari fans these days.

And yet they still don't have a filesystem solution for easy transfer between Atari-PC. The only solution cost some ridiculous 50 euro something.

And they don't have a central file repository like aminet. If you want something you have to search the net and find the thing you want among various cracked/patched/outdated versions ... :(

speaking about infighting, what do you have to say about this whole ppera vs dbug thing ?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Britelite on January 31, 2010, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: countzero;540830
And yet they still don't have a filesystem solution for easy transfer between Atari-PC. The only solution cost some ridiculous 50 euro something.


So using DOS-formatted disks or a serial-cable isn't easy enough?
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: persia on January 31, 2010, 02:40:10 PM
I suspect the Atari forums are more peaceful because they don't believe in some sort of post apocalypse resurrection of the dead machine.  They're the Unitarians of the computer world.  Amigans, on the other hand are more like the Bob Jones University crowd.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: leszeka33 on January 31, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Quote from: persia;540845
I suspect the Atari forums are more peaceful because they don't believe in some sort of post apocalypse resurrection of the dead machine.  

The fastest Amiga with G4 are still faster than a PC with Atom processor.
Software that is written today must work on a PC slower than the fastest G4 Amiga.
You should accept that fact.
Even if the current price of the Amiga are too big for you.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: B00tDisk on January 31, 2010, 04:36:31 PM
Quote from: leszeka33;540857
The fastest Amiga with G4 are still faster than a PC with Atom processor.
Software that is written today must work on a PC slower than the fastest G4 Amiga.
You should accept that fact.
Even if the current price of the Amiga are too big for you.


Benchmarks, let's see 'em.
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: Darth_X on January 31, 2010, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: mdivancic;539250
And this is different from us Amiga users how?


Its exactly the same. I'd like to buy a complete system on ebay, but you only find pieces..
Title: Re: Isnt there something we can learn from them?
Post by: leszeka33 on January 31, 2010, 06:12:47 PM
Quote from: B00tDisk;540861
Benchmarks, let's see 'em.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50937&highlight=nbench&page=39