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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: mingle on January 17, 2010, 05:58:01 AM
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Hi,
Just a couple of quick Qs about the A3000s VGA output:
1: Will it work with pretty much any CRT or LCD monitor, or are there specific requirements?
2: Are all Amiga screen modes available via the VGA port?
3: Are there any quirks/limitations I should be aware of? :-)
Cheers,
Mike.
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1 Mine has worked with all VGA CRTs I've tried. Don't know about LCDs
2 Yes, all native screen modes.
3 There is an adjustment screw next to the VGA port. It should be tuned for best image and then left alone. If it is out adjustment, tuning it in can make all the difference.
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> 1: Will it work with pretty much any CRT or LCD monitor, or are there specific requirements?
most important: 50 Hz vertical scan rate for PAL
60 Hz vertically (NTSC) and 31.25 kHz horizontally is usually no problem
> 2: Are all Amiga screen modes available via the VGA port?
Yes, but 35 ns pixel modes (Super Hires, Productivity, DblPAL, DblNTSC) will be displayed with resolution halved (every other pixel doubled/missing) due to Amber limitations.
> 3: Are there any quirks/limitations I should be aware of? :-)
see above. ;)
A general (potential) problem is horizontal tearing ('combing') that will be visible with quickly moving objects. This is caused by assembling two fields not generated simultaneously but 20 ms apart. This is a general deinterlacing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlacing) problem and very hard to overcome (Amber uses weaving).
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Hi,
Thanks for the replies...
So would the output quality of the A3000/Amber be better or worse than that of an Indivision ECS?
Would an Indivision ECS even fit in an A3000D?
Cheers,
Mike.
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I'd stick with the 3000's scandoubler myself, it performs very well. If money is no object, though, and you're not planning to use an RTG board, the Indivision will give the added benefit of HighGFX and possibly a bit more compatibility with LCDs, though the ECS Indivision adds a couple of its own output quality issues (ghosting is a pain.) It's supposed to fit in the 3000, but a mod or two are required (battery removal, maybe something else.)
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@mingle
Invest in a Cybervision64 instead of an Indivision for a 3000! The CV64 has passthrou for the ECS (3000 VGA output) so you get 1 monitor output with backward compatibility plus fast 8 bit, 16 bit and 24 bit. The price should be pretty similar between a used CV64 and new Indivison. Make sure you get the CyberVision64 and NOT Cybervision64/3D or you would need a monitor switch, 2 monitors, or a dual input monitor (my favorite).
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I wasn't quite satisfied with the output of my A3000's onboard deinterlacer to my Dell 2407 lcd. I tried an A2320 deinterlacer board which should be approximately the same thing but it gave a little better results. I also had an Indivision ECS waiting for a future A500/600 and decided to try it in the 3000. I had already removed the battery so it fit. For Workbench text readability the Indivision ECS beats the other two in my setup. The Indivision ECS configuration software does seem to have some issues though - often times after hitting the "Save Config" button it doesn't seem to respond to anything else.
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From the technical POV, the A3k's FF and A2320 are absolutely identical. Both require proper adjustment of the pixel clock phase though.
When plugging anything into a digital monitor (i.e. LCD/TFT) you should never forget that the output needs to be resampled to the monitor's native resolution. Since the FF more or less provides VGA output, it somewhat fits onto a 17" or 19" monitor with 1280x1024 resolution. Some (few) models are able to exactly match the grids to get a sharp display. Anthing like 1024x768 or 16:9 is doomed to be blurry.
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A CV64 would be nice, but the ones I've seen for sale have been around twice the price of a new Indivision AGA... But maybe it's twice the card? :-)
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You could also try for GVP Spectrum boards, softhut (http://www.softhut.com) did a rerun of those boards and cost as much as an indivision and provide excellent quality output for monitors.
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When plugging anything into a digital monitor (i.e. LCD/TFT) you should never forget that the output needs to be resampled to the monitor's native resolution. Since the FF more or less provides VGA output, it somewhat fits onto a 17" or 19" monitor with 1280x1024 resolution. Some (few) models are able to exactly match the grids to get a sharp display. Anthing like 1024x768 or 16:9 is doomed to be blurry.
Very true. Some monitors also scale with much better quality than others, another factor. Fiddling with the LCD clock/phase settings ("coarse" and "fine" on some monitors) will go a long way towards getting an acceptable picture. Even on my little 15" Eizo - there are small borders along two edges, but the image is very clear despite being scaled.
I use Monitor Test (http://uk.aminet.net/util/misc/MonitorTest.readme), select a PAL low-res screenmode, then choose a solid-color background that best reveals vertical distortion. Adjust the clock setting until the distortion is gone (the image likely won't fit the entire screen), then adjust phase until the image is sharpest, with no horizontal interference present. You'll be set for games, and other PAL modes will look great (handy if you use PAL hi-res laced for WB).
A CV64 would be nice, but the ones I've seen for sale have been around twice the price of a new Indivision AGA... But maybe it's twice the card? :-)
The CV64 would seem like the best choice for an A3000, but (IMHO) the Indivision, PIV, and even CV64/3D scandoublers all have clearer output than Amber, and I wonder about signal degradation after it's then routed through the CV64. (I remember being pretty bummed about the loss of quality after my CV64/3D's VGA went through the scandoubler module.) Amber is still nice enough though, and I probably wouldn't go out of my way to buy another scandoubler for an A3000.
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Hi,
1: Will it work with pretty much any CRT or LCD monitor, or are there specific requirements?
It will work with any normal monitor.
Specifically it will work with any monitor that accepts a 31.5 Khz signal.
There are a few weirdo monitors out there that don't accept a 31.5 Khz input. I know because I saw it happen.
Probably any old monitor you have laying around is going to work on it.
The VGA port on all my A3000s has always displayed completely perfect video output all these years. Yay Amber!
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It will work with any normal monitor.
Specifically it will work with any monitor that accepts a 31.5 Khz signal.
The vertical refresh of Amber, as detected by my ViewSonic monitors is 49.9Hz. Some TFTs will not sync this low. I run PAL exclusively.
Naturally if you are an NTSC user, then there's no problem, as it is closer to 60Hz.. Why would you want to run NTSC though, you lose valuable screen estate. ;-)
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I think the image from the Indivision ECS has a slightly more "steady" image than Amber.
Sadly, the Indivision configuration software seems to have some problem with detecting the hardware, so any tweaking is not possible.
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There are a few weirdo monitors out there that don't accept a 31.5 Khz input. I know because I saw it happen.
This is because the "31 kHz" output serves 31.25 kHz in PAL mode - double 15,625 Hz.
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A CV64 would be nice, but the ones I've seen for sale have been around twice the price of a new Indivision AGA... But maybe it's twice the card? :-)
Not always. $120 U.S. for a CV64 right here...
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51365
Many times faster than an Indivision, more colors, and higher resolution. Yes, more than twice the card for a 3000.
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My 3000's VGA port has worked fine on both a CRT and an LCD monitors. I've had a bit of a warm-up problem. The video isn't stable until the system is warmed up. Works well enough so I haven't bothered to fix it.
I've got an Indivision in my A4000 and it's great! Much better than the internal ScanMagic it replaced.
I'd go with the built-in VGA on the 3000 if it's working. If not, I'd likely get the ECS Indivision over an older display card. Guess I've been burned by too many bad EBay deals!
Bob
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Not always. $120 U.S. for a CV64 right here...
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51365
Many times faster than an Indivision, more colors, and higher resolution. Yes, more than twice the card for a 3000.
apples and oranges ? indivision is a scandoubler/flicker fixer. it's not a graphics card.
You'ld still need a scandoubler to view the native screenmodes even if you had a graphics card.
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The original poster is asking about a 3000, so it will have a scandoubler. Obviously in this case a graphics board beats out the Indivision ECS.
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Is 1024x768 possible with A3000 VGA out? A driver on aminet?
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Hm, never tried HighGFX on a 3000... I wouldn't bet on it working, but who knows.
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Amber will only scan-double standard PAL and NTSC resolutions in ~15 kHz. Any 'exotic' mode will deactivate the flicker fixer and just pass through.
HighGfx will work with or without the scandoubler - 54 Hz vertical, 22 kHz horizontal - but I'm afraid it's interlaced...
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apples and oranges ? indivision is a scandoubler/flicker fixer. it's not a graphics card.
You'ld still need a scandoubler to view the native screenmodes even if you had a graphics card.
The 3000(T) has a built in scandoubler with flickerfixer and the CV64 has passthrough so it's a 1 monitor solution for a 3000(T). The CV64 with a 3000 is almost as nice as a Picasso IV or Mediator setup for a fraction of the price.
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This is because the "31 kHz" output serves 31.25 kHz in PAL mode - double 15,625 Hz.
Putting the vga_only driver in Devs:monitors is supposed to help with this.