Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Astral on November 15, 2009, 12:57:54 AM
-
http://torlus.com/floppy/index.php?en
Check out the SD based floppy emulator in the link. I think there'd be a good number of people interested in purchasing one of these.
So I'm starting this thread to get an indication of how many would be interested in purchasing an SD based floppy emulator if a run of them is made. Of course, I understand price will be a factor.
I can then direct the author to this thread to give them a good indication, and they (someone else?) can decide on doing a run of them. Sound like a good idea?
To start - I would buy at least one.
-
For other systems other than Amiga, yes. But Amiga has WHDload which removes the real need for this.
-
For other systems other than Amiga, yes. But Amiga has WHDload which removes the real need for this.
Not totally. Depends on what the "need" is.
If you have a HD and WHDLoad handles everything you need, then fine.
But I'm not sure what the compatibility is for this compared to WHDLoad.
If you have an Amiga 500, to use WHDload, you need a HD and FAST RAM (I believe).
Now, there are other benefits to having those, but they come at a price.
If you can get this for the same or less than the other, it might be worth considering.
Just some food for thought..
desiv
-
Looks like a cool homebrew hardware project.
-
alexh: How do you install Workbench on your Amiga with WHDload for example?
Yes you can mount it in UAE, but this is a much cleaner solution IMHO - to be able to run any disk you have in ADF-format on a real Amiga without writing it to a floppy.
WHDload is great, but it can be trouble getting games to run for example if you do not have the "right" hardware.
I would be very interested in such a device with no need to connect to PC.
-
In my opinion, people who just have an A500 will take a lot of advantages of this device.
People here who bought one of those babies simply put their A1200s in semi-retirement since playing with the A500 is better!
Also, A500 IDE/SCSI controllers are very expensive and memory expansions (but the internal A501) are expensive, too.
In a final note, to make a decent WHDLoad machine based on one A500 you need:
1- Fast memory (at least 2Mb, better 4Mb, 8Mb is excellent);
2- HD controller. SCSI is widely available for A500, some few IDE ones. For SCSI then an ACARD board, plus a Compact Flash adaptor and the CF itself;
3- Optional 3.1 ROM to be able to run ECS games on the A500 (ECS Denise is not necessary, just the 1Mb Agnus).
All those bits and bobs costs money. So you can't have the HD-expanded A500 for less than 200USD!
The floppy emulator wins!
-
For other systems other than Amiga, yes. But Amiga has WHDload which removes the real need for this.
Agreed. I would definitely get one if it had support for x68000.
-
Count me in if cheap enough.
-
I'd want at least one. Depending on the price maybe more. Perhaps a DIY to keep the price low?
-
If you have an Amiga 500, to use WHDload, you need a HD and FAST RAM (I believe).Now, there are other benefits to having those, but they come at a price.
I understand what you're saying. But that price is considerably less than a stand alone floppy disk emulator (based on the €80 price of the much simpler USB variant)
but this is a much cleaner solution IMHO
Cleaner solution? What are you some sort of girl? ;)
WHDload is great, but it can be trouble getting games to run for example if you do not have the "right" hardware.
Vast majority is fine. But true, compatibility will be higher.
Fast memory (at least 2Mb, better 4Mb, 8Mb is excellent)
Vast majority of slaves do not need this amount of memory. But more is always better. An A500 hard drive interface is going to include a fast RAM interface.
Also, A500 IDE/SCSI controllers are very expensive and memory expansions (but the internal A501) are expensive, too.
Now you are just making this shit up!
1) A500 SCSI controllers are cheaper than €80 by a long way
2) Only stand alone RAM expansions are expensive. The ones built into the SCSI controllers (GVP HD8+, A590 etc.) are cheap.
3) As I've said time and time before, cheapest upgrade for A500 is an A1200.
Optional 3.1 ROM to be able to run ECS games on the A500
?? do you just wake up in the morning and decide I'm going to make up facts or is there some truth behind this statement?
So you can't have the HD-expanded A500 for less than 200USD! The floppy emulator wins!
OMG you're right. I'm going to rush out and buy one right now. Oh wait a minute.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399265751
Cant win all the time ;)
-
Cranky Sunday morning? :D
I already got USB floppy emul for bootstrapping situations, but also a more permanent solution would be nice. I'm definetly interested :)
-
Cranky Sunday morning? :D
It just gets my goat up when people choose a side to an argument and then try and make the facts fit that decision.
Examine the facts you have, make an informed decision, analyse any extra facts which come along, review your decision.
These things are pretty cool and as I said if you a non Amiga platform (which is not already enabled in some way) especially multiple platforms it is probably the smart buy.
-
And now you sound like one of the guys from the big bang theory ;-)
-
Pretty cool. I would certainly consider one.
-
I'm intrested: I'd buy two.
-
I'm interested but I wouldn't buy any lol :) (sorry I'm broke) unless it's like 20 euro or something :)
-
Interested for my A500. If it would be SD Standalone. I don't like to have any device attached to a &%&F& PC
On the A1200 side is not so useful as long as we can handle adf's and many of the programs that must be run from floppy are patched by WHDLoad.
-
I'd love one, very handy on my A1200. My PC has an SD slot so file transfer is easy. My 1200 isn't online so this is a very good way of getting adf's onto my 1200's HD to boot from WHDLoad.
I don't see why some people think WHDLoad takes anything away from this hardware. In my opinion they can also compliment one another.
@countzero
For what it's worth, you are not alone.
-
You can use the CF-PCMCIA adapter, or even the SD-CF adapter on the CF-PCMCIA adapter
-
True. I could use a null modem cable too, I have done just that in the past. I could also use my PCMCIA 10baseT card too, I've done that in the past too. Given the choice however I like nice tidy solutions that fit inside the case.
Please understand that I'm not preaching, other people will prefer other solutions but for me this one is preferable and let's face it that's the whole point, to have a choice. Our choice to use Amigas is not logical to some people but it is our choice.
-
A great alternative on A1200 too IMHO. So games would not be fixed such as WHDload "fixed" games, meaning games compatibility will be so-so however to be able to install apps from ADF-floppies by draging ADF-files to mem-card on PC and run them on the real thing as the real thing (a DD-floppy drive) sounds to good to be true, finally no more floppies but 100% compatibility with floppies (I guess)!
I hate digging out the HD-prep floppy everytime I set up a new Amiga system for example.
-
Definitely interested.
-
But it seems this project is for some kind of connection with the PC using USB, the point would be using SD cards to store all the adf's.
Just in the way SIO2SD works for the Atari XE, or 1541Ultimate for the C64.
-
OMG you're right. I'm going to rush out and buy one right now. Oh wait a minute.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399265751
Cant win all the time ;)
That just makes me cry!
We don't see those type of prices here in the U.S.
Last A590 I saw on e-bait (and they don't come up that often) went for well over $100. And that's without FAST RAM. In that same time span, I haven't seen any GVPs.
And the A1200 as the upgrade for the 500 is true, but there are two issues there.
1: Some people might prefer the A500.
2: 1200's aren't as easy to come by in in some places either. I know I can get a PAL model from Amigakit for $145 or so + shipping.
But, if someone can come out with a product like this (we are talking like with but with SD or some other type of memory for this thread) for some of us here in the boonies, there's probably a market for it.
I'm still holding out for a less expensive 1200, and I'll keep waiting...
desiv
-
Hi there,
Count me in for one unit. I'd be interested in two units, depending on price.
-
@Astral (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=3464)
Count me in for at least one (stand alone model) as well.
The Dawg!
-
That just makes me cry!
We don't see those type of prices here in the U.S.
Last A590 I saw on e-bait (and they don't come up that often) went for well over $100. And that's without FAST RAM. In that same time span, I haven't seen any GVPs.
desiv
LMAO, It may be a pain for you buyers in the US but it's just as bad if your a UK seller. I've got an A500 HD+ spare.....mmmm....looks like I should sell it on ebay in the US huh.
-
I know I can get a PAL model from Amigakit for $145 or so + shipping.
You could get one from eBay UK for $50 + shipping, less if you did a "swap" with someone over here for something only available in the US cheaply.
-
Eeewww, connection to PC with USB cable? Kludgey.
Get rid of the PC crap and then call me.
-
I would be interested.
-
the Sd standalone, yes... but not the USB version..
-
the Sd standalone, yes... but not the USB version..
Same here. I wouldn't mind a standalone for my A2000, A3000 and A4000, but I have no interest in a USB-PC version.
The main question is how close the cost is to a Minimig which also uses AFD images on a SD Card...
-
Good to hear of the positive interest so far!
Keep the interest coming - the more the better!
-
Eeewww, connection to PC with USB cable? Kludgey.
Get rid of the PC crap and then call me.
Same here. Copy that. XD
-
Eeewww, connection to PC with USB cable? Kludgey.
Get rid of the PC crap and then call me.
That is the whole point of this thread - to get a good indication of who would be interested in a run of the *SD card based version*.
So, I take it you'd be interested?
-
Same here. Copy that. XD
So you'd be interested in an buying an SD card based version as well?
-
a big YES for me, one or two units. And i know a lot of people who could be interested either in some spanish forums.
-
And i know a lot of people who could be interested either in some spanish forums.
Would you be kind enough to help out and direct them to this thread? The more positive interest the better!
-
WilCo
-
SD version only..absolutely zero interest in hooking up to PC
-
I'm interested in the SD card version... it would be quite useful for my A500 :-) but I'm not interested at all in the usb-pc thingie
-
The Stand-alone version could be of interest. But why not try to shrink the design down? The PCB could easily be reduced at least to half it's size. Most parts could be replaced with SMD counterparts (except for the LS-type logic IC's that are hard to find as SMD) and the PCB could be double sided. And that LCD should be hooked up with a piece of flat cable anyway to a suitable place at the case front.
-
Why not make it in a way that it replaces the floppy drive inside an A500 and the CF is inserted/removed from the floppy drive slot?
That would be real neat.
-
Why not make it in a way that it replaces the floppy drive inside an A500 and the CF is inserted/removed from the floppy drive slot?
That would be real neat.
That would make sense although I'm not sure about where would you put the lcd screen and buttons to change the adf. If it took a 5 1/4 bay or even better a 3 1/2 one it would be easier to fit on big box amigas or external floppy disk cases (it would be easy to exchange df0&df1 and leave the ADF-SD as external unit connected cleanly to the floppy port and leave the internal floppy disk untouched as df1).
Would it be possible that the ADF-SD "emulator" could load 2 adfs as df0 and df2 for example? It would be more comfortable for multidisk games. The games usually only access one drive simultaneously so even if the chip was not capable of handling 4 drives simultaneously perhaps it could apply some "delay" to the other drives until the current operation is finished.
-
You cut a part of the case to reveal the screen below :P
OK ok, i have to revise this.
-
I would be interested as well. Depending on the price I might be interested in more than one.
-
@Astral: count me in as well. At least 2 units (Of course i would prefer the SD standalone version).
Thanks
Sebastian
PD: wait a minute!!! What is this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HCX-Floppy-emulator-for-Amiga-Atari-ST-ZX-3-CPC-PC_W0QQitemZ180431721171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_VintageComputing_RL?hash=item2a029192d3 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HCX-Floppy-emulator-for-Amiga-Atari-ST-ZX-3-CPC-PC_W0QQitemZ180431721171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_VintageComputing_RL?hash=item2a029192d3) :). So...53.99 pounds or best offer...what do you people consider would be the "best offer? 50 pounds? 45? 40?
I know, this is the "usb to pc version" but... http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#SDCARDFloppyemulator :)
I guess it will be for sale, according to both url´s i marked above...this is indeed a very cool project!!!!
It even mentions this: SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator
So definitely, im IN!!!! :banana::banana:
-
I'm interested.
For 50€/piece I might get 4 of them (SD based version, that does not need x86 PC at all).
Can it simulate 4 floppy drives at the same time?
Is it possible to do hard disk imitation/emulation with it? (productivity use, replacement for A590etc...)
btw... here's another (so far not noticed a link to this here) http://www.sensi.org/~tnt23/megadrive/
-
It would be great if the SD version could have exatly the same sice than a floppy drive, and have the holes for the screws in the proper place, so we could just shift our old floppy drives for this device. Inserting the SD's thru the case floppy slot.
-
I'd be interested in 1 or 2 units depending on the price.
-
I am very interested in the standalone floppy emulator as it would make life for classic Amiga users much easier.
If I had a free wish I would like it to be open source/hardware and well documented :)
best regards
http://selco.da.ru
-
okay, Okay, OKAY! Add me to the list for 1.
I think I understand it now.
-
I would like to buy one too, i have the USB version, but like being said here before, i'd prefer to PC free version too, PC for PC stuff and Amiga for it's own retro purposes. No complains about the USB version(i have one), since it's workin fine, though not without the PC :(
-
How about designing the adapter to connect to the external floppy port (ideally making it ultra-compact, accompanied with a nice case to make it matchy, matchy with the Amiga 500 case)? The only trouble that I can see is that the adapter would have to assume DF1: ownership this way, unless the Amiga is opened and the on-board floppy drive disconnected from the motherboard, or jumpered to be DF1: leaving DF0: available to the adapter. Just brainstorming ideas. :-)
-
@x56h34
Yeah, that might be the smart thing, I don't want to hack up my G1200 anymore. And I could just velcro it to the top or something. Also, you could move it to other machines if needed.
About DF0: - I use a terminator on mine, that lets me use DF1 to boot from if needed.
-
@x56h34
Yeah, that might be the smart thing, I don't want to hack up my G1200 anymore. And I could just velcro it to the top or something. Also, you could move it to other machines if needed.
About DF0: - I use a terminator on mine, that lets me use DF1 to boot from if needed.
If the entire adapter would simply be "the plug" that goes into the ext. floppy connector, you wouldn't even need to velcro, or anything like that. Make it look and sized for instance like an external SCSI terminator, with an integrated LCD in it and a hole for an SD card.
My concern with DF1: vs DF0: that I brought up is merely to be able to force the adapter to assume DF0: role, as a lot of games will not boot unless they detect that they are dealing with a DF0: drive. :-( ...so in essence, DF0: role needs to be there for broader/full compatibility with games.
-
Oh diggity - you're right about games and DF0: They love that DF0:
Velcro has never been sexy, believe me I tried for years....:laugh1:
-
I would want one of these :)
-
To clarify: I would be intrested in buying at least two of the "stand alone" SD-Card versions, with no USB, and the SD-Card just contains ADF files.
Furthermore: I'd like a DeLuxe ver$ion (W/more SRAM) having Qty:4 pair of hex switches (or binary jumpers!) to select which decimal number ADF was to appear in each of the DF0,1,2,3: position. That would allow a pretty awesome solid state WB Ver 0.99 system, without any HD!
-
Umm, I want to ask some especially dumb questions (I read over the pages http://torlus.com/floppy/index.php?About).
What is the relation to the SD card and a floppy image? Or I guess I am asking, can I store a bunch of .ADF images on an SD card, like some super floppy drive? Does this get rid of floppy swappy?
And could it emulate more than one physical device? DF0: and DF1: ? I guess if works as hoped there would be no need for that.
-
Unfortunately you have to convert every ADF image to custom format (raw MFM data) and then store such files on an SD card. Only one drive is supported. More over write to images created from Amiga disk format files (ADF, DMS, IPF) is not supported.
I'm thinking about making my own floppy emulator supporting directly ADF images (writable) and up to 4 floppy drives (that would require some Amiga hacking since external floppy connector supports 3 or 2 (A2000, A3000 & A4000) drives, also making external drive acting as DF0: isn't simple (maybe except A4000 where you need only to change a jumper).
-
Thats great news Yaqube... If you made an ADF compatible one... I would buy two...
But here is what you should consider in desgn of the PCB in my opinion:
1.) That the PCB is the size of a standard Amiga Floppy drive with mounting holes to match (you would probably need threaded barrel connectors attached to the sides of the PCB to mate up with the holes), so it can be easily mounted internally.
2.)That the SD slot pertrudes slightly out of or lines up with the floppy access slot on the amiga case for true floppy replacement and easy access.
3.) That there be a fairly long cable (6-8 inch) that gets run out the floppy access hole providing the connection from a header on the PCB to the LCD and buttons to switch ADFs and scroll through them on the SD card, and reset the unit to allow for external mounting on the outside of the case with velcro or two sided tape.
4.) Maybe a visble LED light to show SD access on the PCB or on the LCD unit...
Any of us who have your ARM unit, know that you make great stuff... I am really to seeing this from you... I would definately take two...
Unfortunately you have to convert every ADF image to custom format (raw MFM data) and then store such files on an SD card. Only one drive is supported. More over write to images created from Amiga disk format files (ADF, DMS, IPF) is not supported.
I'm thinking about making my own floppy emulator supporting directly ADF images (writable) and up to 4 floppy drives (that would require some Amiga hacking since external floppy connector supports 3 or 2 (A2000, A3000 & A4000) drives, also making external drive acting as DF0: isn't simple (maybe except A4000 where you need only to change a jumper).
-
Unfortunately you have to convert every ADF image to custom format (raw MFM data) and then store such files on an SD card. Only one drive is supported. More over write to images created from Amiga disk format files (ADF, DMS, IPF) is not supported.
I'm thinking about making my own floppy emulator supporting directly ADF images (writable) and up to 4 floppy drives (that would require some Amiga hacking since external floppy connector supports 3 or 2 (A2000, A3000 & A4000) drives, also making external drive acting as DF0: isn't simple (maybe except A4000 where you need only to change a jumper).
Ditto on Trip6 comments! I would also like to have the emulator support ADF directly, as opposed to converting each file. I would definitely want two or more of these units.
The Dawg!
-
Yes, .ADF support would make all the effort worth while to me...
Thanks for your replies
-
Unfortunately you have to convert every ADF image to custom format (raw MFM data) and then store such files on an SD card.
yes but this is as fast as copy adf file directly to the sdcard: the software convert and store image file directly to the sdcard.
Only one drive is supported. More over write to images created from Amiga disk format files (ADF, DMS, IPF) is not supported.
true actually, but this will be corrected on the final version of the emulator (work in progress ;-) ).
(http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/finalsdcadhxcfloppyemu_pcbpreview.gif)
-
Hey Jeff, nice to see you! Keep working on your great design :)
@trip6
What you describe looks very much like this :) It's a custom installation of Megadrive256 emulator on a 1200. The guy has left SD card on the emulator's board, and I guess it is not accessible through the floppy slot.
(http://kawai.spb.ru/files/lj/megadrive/mega_int2.jpg)
Direct ADF support requires some processing power, as the CPU has to take every sector's 512 bytes, split these into odd and even bits, then combine in an Amiga formatted MFM sector adding quite a few CRCs here and there.
(shameless plug on) On Megadrive256 emulator, typical .ADF is loaded and encoded in 15-16 seconds. Funny enough, the already pre-encoded MFM image (2048K in size) is loaded pretty much at the same speed, that's because Megadrive256 runs @16MHz and SD card is being accessed at half of that.
(http://images53.fotki.com/v425/photos/1/1349988/6607777/loading-vi.jpg)
(shameless plug off)
So I guess it would require some really quick CPU to seamlessly read .ADFs, and to write these on the fly it would have to be even faster. Probably an easy job for FPGA.
-
Hey Jeff, nice to see you! Keep working on your great design :)
@trip6
What you describe looks very much like this :) It's a custom installation of Megadrive256 emulator on a 1200. The guy has left SD card on the emulator's board, and I guess it is not accessible through the floppy slot.
(http://kawai.spb.ru/files/lj/megadrive/mega_int2.jpg)
Direct ADF support requires some processing power, as the CPU has to take every sector's 512 bytes, split these into odd and even bits, then combine in an Amiga formatted MFM sector adding quite a few CRCs here and there.
(shameless plug on) On Megadrive256 emulator, typical .ADF is loaded and encoded in 15-16 seconds. Funny enough, the already pre-encoded MFM image (2048K in size) is loaded pretty much at the same speed, that's because Megadrive256 runs @16MHz and SD card is being accessed at half of that.
(http://images53.fotki.com/v425/photos/1/1349988/6607777/loading-vi.jpg)
(shameless plug off)
So I guess it would require some really quick CPU to seamlessly read .ADFs, and to write these on the fly it would have to be even faster. Probably an easy job for FPGA.
You can also encode the actual track only if the cpu is fast enough to have a settle time < 18ms ;-)
with this hardware this should be possible (AT91SAM7S):
(http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/armsdcadhxcfloppyemu_schemapreview.gif)
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/ARM_StandAlone_HxCFloppyEmulator.pdf
but if you use some pre encoded file, why did you need to load the full image into ram ?
-
You can also encode the actual track only if the cpu is fast enough to have a settle time < 18ms ;-)
Yeah, right :) In fact, you have to encode two tracks (both sides) as switching sides takes 0.1ms. This definitely was not achievable on my hardware.
with this hardware this should be possible (AT91SAM7S)
Hope it will be! I am thinking about teaching myself FPGA in the meanwhile :)
but if you use some pre encoded file, why did you need to load the full image into ram ?
Well, seemed like I haven't got enough time to load even one track of one side into memory in 18ms, so I scrapped the idea. Besides, I'd still need some RAM to accomodate incoming WRDATA stream, and RAM the size of a track would still need to be flushed back to the card in realtime.