Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Nlandas on July 15, 2009, 12:34:14 AM
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I was reading the page dedicated to this case. The last on there is that they entered settlement negotiations and an extension to Dec 2008 for a reply from Amiga, Inc.
Was a settlement reached or is the case still on? I've been watching for this to finish before I consider getting a new board and AmigaOS version.
-Nyl
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I was reading the page dedicated to this case. The last on there is that they entered settlement negotiations and an extension to Dec 2008 for a reply from Amiga, Inc.
Was a settlement reached or is the case still on? I've been watching for this to finish before I consider getting a new board and AmigaOS version.
-Nyl
It all seems to have gone very quiet, maybe AmigaInc have finally run out of money to pay for their lawyers and have dropped the legal action?
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It all seems to have gone very quiet, maybe AmigaInc have finally run out of money to pay for their lawyers and have dropped the legal action?
What would that mean? AmigaInc loses? - Or - Let's make a deal?
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Not sure. Hyperion and partners seem to have been active this past Spring on the Amiga OS front. So, it maybe that Amiga, Inc. can't prove their case and can't force Hyperion in to a settlement agreement, thus Amiga, Inc. is unable to prohibit Hyperion from doing what they wish.
It would be nice to know what is going on.
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didn't somebody die recently
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didn't somebody die recently
Probably.
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It's just suprising to have regular updates on this and then nothing. Says they are in negotiations, whatever that means. Perhaps, Amiga, inc. finally realized that Hyperion is the only group who can keep developing the OS or they are willing to let them sell some OS 4.1 in exchange for the code base so that they can do what they will with it.
It would be nice it one or the other party would talk a little bit.
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It would be nice it one or the other party would talk a little bit.
Problem is, there are two sides to every story, so aside from a joint press release, or a court document outlining a "winner", it's probably never going to be widely known.
All I know is that this is a helluva lotta fuss over a now slow, outdated, overpriced system based on dead technology (PPC).
AROS impresses me more at this point in that it can at least be run on reasonable, readily available hardware..
If they wanted to impress anyone, they'd have pulled an Apple and put AmigaOS on true commodity hardware, not one-offs and closed-end hardware from questionable developers/vendors.
Wayne
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Anybody know who died? Could it have been Bill McVapour??
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Anybody know who died? Could it have been Bill McVapour??
Pentti Kouri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Kouri)? I don't recall any more recent.
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I am curious what happened but don't really care all that much because I went ahead and ordered my Sam from Amigakit anyway.
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The court issued a protective order, so we're not going to hear any more about the case until it's settled or tried. Even then, we'll only know what both sides agree to reveal.
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All we can be sure of is that which ever side wins, still loses! The amiga kiss of death.
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Well, someone, somewhere wins, it just won't be their customers. EDIT: Aside from the time and effort contributed by Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion employees, though, I don't think the Amiga IP is really worth anything. For modern projects, there are much better operating environments available, unencumbered by legal and community bickering. No serious (read: consistently profitable) developer needs the baggage associated with the Amiga.
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the never ending story III :D
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didn't somebody die recently
Pentti Kouri, chairman of Amiga inc.
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Pentti Kouri, chairman of Amiga inc.
aka, the guy with the money.
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the never ending story III :D
SPOILER:
Atreyu dies because Falkor is stuck in court and can't help him on his journey.
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Well, someone, somewhere wins, it just won't be their customers. EDIT: Aside from the time and effort contributed by Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion employees, though, I don't think the Amiga IP is really worth anything. For modern projects, there are much better operating environments available, unencumbered by legal and community bickering. No serious (read: consistently profitable) developer needs the baggage associated with the Amiga.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZPS4DKqHxU
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SPOILER:
Atreyu dies because Falkor is stuck in court and can't help him on his journey.
Ah, man. You've gone and brought up what was one of the most traumatic experiences of my film-going childhood--the death of Artax. E.T. going home is up there, too, but E.T. didn't die. (E.T. does, however, continue to visit my nightmares. !@#% aliens.)
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@amiga92570
I'll have to watch when I get home. (My iPhone tells me the video doesn't exist.)
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I can't see what we have to lose if AInc. loses. On the other hand, if they win, it's the end complete:) (Anyone knows Obituary here ?! ;))
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All I know is that this is a helluva lotta fuss over a now slow, outdated, overpriced system based on dead technology (PPC).
PPC is far from dead.
Mind you, the Cell processor of the PS3 is PPC based, (as well as the processor of the Xbox 360, which is essentially a slimmed down Cell processor).
And AFAIK a new Cell processor has been released very recently.
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Power6 ;)
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I dig the GPX demonstration, though I am vaguely concerned about the video footage of copyright violations :)
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PPC is far from dead.
Mind you, the Cell processor of the PS3 is PPC based, (as well as the processor of the Xbox 360, which is essentially a slimmed down Cell processor).
And AFAIK a new Cell processor has been released very recently.
Not to mention that the Wii also uses a PPC based architecture ;)
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I've gotta agree with Wayne on this. Had Amiga and Hyperion co-operated on this while they had the chance, AmigaOS would have had a good chance, but now I think our only hope is AROS.
At least it runs on computers you can actually buy ...
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PPC is far from dead.
Mind you, the Cell processor of the PS3 is PPC based, (as well as the processor of the Xbox 360, which is essentially a slimmed down Cell processor).
And AFAIK a new Cell processor has been released very recently.
PPC as a desktop CPU is dead and buried. Who is left producing the Cell, Toshiba? You have IBM pushing the Power CPU, but that's not a desktop CPU. Freescale has changed it's focus to ARM, and I don't see any future for the AI/Hyperion nor MOS to remain in a dead Arch where they have to live off of used EOL machines or machines they are locked out of. Can you?
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PPC as a desktop CPU is dead and buried. Who is left producing the Cell, Toshiba? You have IBM pushing the Power CPU, but that's not a desktop CPU. Freescale has changed it's focus to ARM, and I don't see any future for the AI/Hyperion nor MOS to remain in a dead Arch where they have to live off of used EOL machines or machines they are locked out of. Can you?
I mostly agree. You're only finding PPC in SatNav and SetTop boxes these days. I know that you _can_ find PPC desktop machines but they're not exactly mainstream.
The Xbox360, PS3 and Wii all use PPC chips but again they're not a commodity that just anyone can use. They're for games only basically.
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PPC is far from dead.
Mind you, the Cell processor of the PS3 is PPC based, (as well as the processor of the Xbox 360, which is essentially a slimmed down Cell processor).
And AFAIK a new Cell processor has been released very recently.
Sorry to disagree, but as a DESKTOP processor on a commercial scale, the PPC is, in fact, quite dead.
Commercially speaking, no one will run out and buy a sub 1ghz desktop machine when they can run out and buy a 3+ghz Intel or AMD for the same price.
Besides, neither Amiga nor Hyperion are building a game box like the wii or xbox, so your point in this conversation seems rather moot?
Wayne
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I could be wrong, but it seems that Amiga Inc have been working on AmigaAnywhere 2 during the last years. Also Bill is a great guy, according to the person working at Amiga inc (Jamie something IIRC?). There is a fairly big thread on amigaworld.net about this.
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Sorry to disagree, but as a DESKTOP processor on a commercial scale, the PPC is, in fact, quite dead.
Commercially speaking, no one will run out and buy a sub 1ghz desktop machine when they can run out and buy a 3+ghz Intel or AMD for the same price.
Besides, neither Amiga nor Hyperion are building a game box like the wii or xbox, so your point in this conversation seems rather moot?
Wayne
Well I guess I'm no one then because I just ran out and bought an 800mhz Sam with OS4.1 from Amigakit and am really enjoying it so far.
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Well I guess I'm no one then because I just ran out and bought an 800mhz Sam with OS4.1 from Amigakit and am really enjoying it so far.
One purchase, or even 100 (which is about all the sales left in this community) does not a "commercially viable" product make.
People still buy C64's and Jeri's Joysticks. Doesn't make them commercially viable either.
Makes it a hobby niche computer at best. I truly wish I still felt the internal need to own one, but my money is better spent on the bike.
Wayne
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I could be wrong, but it seems that Amiga Inc have been working on AmigaAnywhere 2 during the last years. Also Bill is a great guy, according to the person working at Amiga inc (Jamie something IIRC?). There is a fairly big thread on amigaworld.net about this.
I can't say "great" guy. I don't know him well enough for that, but yeah -- despite what will become the cries of others -- Bill McEwen is a good guy. I'll attest to that in my book, as he's always been a decent bloke with me.
I know all the stakes are being sharpened and the torches lit, but unlike a lot of you, I don't think McEwen ever woke up and said "let's screw everyone over for the fun of it". I just think that he was a little short-sighted and got screwed over by both circumstances and people through the years.
He's also tried -- unsuccessfully -- to keep the company alive through the years when I'm sure it would have been easier to simply walk away and say the hell with it all, so I give him full marks for that.
Yes, there's the $50 t-shirt and all sorts of nightmares that have come about due to the circumstances around it all (mainly the dot com bust) but ask yourself this:
If McEwen had instead come out and said "we've lost funding (or whatever happened) and need to pay rent, so we'd like to arrange to sell private stock to the community" you guys would have jumped at the chance without hesitation.
Some of you still would..
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Wayne,
So do you know what's up with Amiga Inc? They seem to have had their phones disconnected and I suspect their world headquarters above the Amish furniture store may be closed, is there anything left of Amiga Inc besides the Website?
(http://www.madison.com/wsj/forums/images/avatars/76433482947bd0684ba4d1.jpg)
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Wayne,
So do you know what's up with Amiga Inc? They seem to have had their phones disconnected and I suspect their world headquarters above the Amish furniture store may be closed, is there anything left of Amiga Inc besides the Website?
I have no first-hand knowledge, sad to say. It seems that Bill stopped talking to me about a year or so ago when I expressed my general disinterest at a ping he made as to using Amiga.org to support the cell-phone gaming community.
In fairness, he didn't ask me that directly, but wondered if I was still interested in working with them as before. I said "yes", but then stupidly offered (without being asked) my rather negative opinion of their direction towards cell-phone gaming. Never heard another word from him after that, so that's all my bad.
Hmmmm. Thinking back, it might have been more than a year ago because the iPhone 3G hadn't been released yet and they still stood a 1/10 of 1% chance.
Come to think of it, he didn't even respond to a Merry Christmas e-mail I'm afraid, which I find very unusual.
Wayne
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One purchase, or even 100 (which is about all the sales left in this community) does not a "commercially viable" product make.
People still buy C64's and Jeri's Joysticks. Doesn't make them commercially viable either.
Makes it a hobby niche computer at best. I truly wish I still felt the internal need to own one, but my money is better spent on the bike.
Wayne
Hi Wayne,
Didn't Jeri sell like over a million of those C64 Joysticks on QVC? I think we might all be surprised the number of lurkers that hold Amiga fondly in their hearts who would buy a new computer if it was released. A lot of it depends on price point that they can achieve and if they can get a modern web browser on it. Why is porting Firefox so hard?
-Nyle
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An Amiga in a joystick might sell.
But getting back to Bill, the shell game with K-Mos was shear genius, Amiga Inc would have not survived bankruptcy. But the crazy press releases, the whole Ice Hockey arena thing, the non-existent new hardware, the ridiculous "bigger than iPhone" letter. If I could ask him one question it would be what the #### were you thinking?!?!?!? None of this engenders the kind of confidence you need in IT. You can bluff, but you have to deliver once in a while or your bluffs don't work.
On porting Firefox, could be done, but you need programmers, and they are in short supply. This is a direct result of the community being ignored for so long. People leave and there are no financial incentives. I could spend 10 times longer developing a sucessful Amiga application than a failed iPhone one and be financial rewarded far more for the iPhone app!
It used to be fun when the Amiga was cutting edge, but it isn't, to borrow from another thread, the whole idea of snapshots in 2009 is a bit like film cameras. In order to build apps for the Amiga you have to start from scratch, iPhone gives you all the tools, if I want to add a browser bit to my App calls to the Safari api are right there. And the OS doesn't help you and without memory protection it actually fights you at times.
Sorry about the rant...
(http://www.madison.com/wsj/forums/images/avatars/76433482947bd0684ba4d1.jpg)
Hi Wayne,
Didn't Jeri sell like over a million of those C64 Joysticks on QVC? I think we might all be surprised the number of lurkers that hold Amiga fondly in their hearts who would buy a new computer if it was released. A lot of it depends on price point that they can achieve and if they can get a modern web browser on it. Why is porting Firefox so hard?
-Nyle
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Hi Wayne,
Didn't Jeri sell like over a million of those C64 Joysticks on QVC?
It was some good number, but you're forgetting one very important point.
Jeri didn't build a computer. She built a way to play all your old favorite C64 games in a joystick form.
I think we might all be surprised the number of lurkers that hold Amiga fondly in their hearts who would buy a new computer if it was released.
Unless that machine is comparable to what is currently available in the PC and/or Mac world both on a price and performance level, then I'm afraid you'd be in for a bit of disappointment.
Most people cannot fathom paying $2k (or even 1k)+ for a desktop machine with an unsupported OS that runs slower than their $399 laptop from Dell. Dedicated hobbyists, sure, but they're not "normal" where the average computer buyer is concerned.
Build the Amiga on a joystick, add in the top 50 games and/or a way to import them off of SD memory card and yeah, it'd sell a few hundred thousand at best, but that's still not enough, because it's sales/impact would be a short-lived event and there's not much to follow that up with...
Everyone these days wants real computers, or wants popular and expandable game consoles (XBox PS3, Wii, etc) but no one wants an underpowered, overpriced desktop solution with zero software support.
Sorry to be so brutal, and yes, you'd think as "the Amiga.org guy" I'd be a little more supportive, but I've been fighting this fight to no avail for 15 years now and still no one (except maybe Dammy and AROS) "gets it".
Wayne
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Wayne,
I think you've nailed it, at least you completely reflect my opinion. I get scowls from the OS4 developers when I've seen them at Expo. They're not happy when I tell them I'm only interested in Classic items. I won't shell out the kind of money being asked for an OS4 system.
I bought one of Jeri's C64 joysticks, and it got me back into retro computing, It DIDN'T send me out looking for an UBER 64 and it doesn't appear to have had a lasting impact on the 64 market.
Bob
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didn't somebody die recently
Pentti Kouri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Kouri)? I don't recall any more recent.
Pentti Kouri, chairman of Amiga inc.
aka, the guy with the money.
yup, that's who I was thinking of
well, I haven't paid any attention to this sage and frankly don't care.
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IMHO Amiga needs vision, not negativity and not a public view of the Amiga that the best it can be is simply a Walmart-joystick preloaded with 50 sh*tty games from 1989-1991.
So what if it costs a premium to be part of the exclusive next-gen Amiga club today right now?
Cant afford it? Lost your job? Economy in crisis? Wifey wont let you blow 1000 on pathetic PPC clocked at 533 MHz running an obscure OS that does not auto-snapshot icons?
Turn negative into positive, do not say it is bad, not good, not interesting, needs to be intel, does not have Photoshop bla bla bla.. it is what it is and it may lead to great things in the future such as a better price point, a better OS, auto-snapshoting icons and growth in the community (which everyone will earn on, Hyperion sells more OS, Acube more hardware, Amiga.org gets more clicks on ads and more donations and overall it is going to be a fun ride when software development explodes again).
Keep a positive attitude, and just wait two more weeks.. . (sorry could not recist) ;)
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The problem lies in the fact that they just didn't listen. When asked, we wanted X86 and they gave us PPC. When we *FINALLY* got a board, it was way underpowered and *WAY* overpriced for what it was. The majority, just couldn't afford it. Many of us have old machines that are just now getting parts we wanted 15 years ago, but couldn't afford. I didn't really get into Amigas again, until Amithlon. I even bought a new A1200 from Software Hut which I didn't need, just to support Amiga, Inc. even though I know they really wouldn't get anything from it.
Fact of the matter is, Hyperion should have ported the OS to X86 and said "Hey, you want to use it, you need to get *THIS* mobo, *THIS* gfx card, *THIS* CPU, *THIS* Soundcard, etc., instead of having a crappy PPC motherboard made that was too expensive. Think about it.....if you could have just purchased the parts at your local store and then bought OS4 from your local Amiga dealer, everything would have worked out. Instead, the powers that be wanted to bleed us all dry, from every facet they could find, to collect money. *EVERYONE* dropped the ball on this one, not just Amiga, Inc. To make matters worse, the OS4Depot would have been *FILLED* with drivers that what few coders we have left coded for new hardware that they wanted to use. It would have had a better chance of bringing in other coders from the X86 platform. Look at the Hackintosh Phenom.
Instead, we got PPC, empty promises and talks of "dongles" and "piracy".
Stupid.
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I agree, but as I said. It is what it is. Either you accept it and have the time of your life with Workbench running natively on a next gen CPU or you do not. Simple as that.
I think Hyperion is a weird company since they seem a bit quiet with no public roadmap or vision other than developers responding now and then on forums. I hope I dont get an angry reply from the said developers now, (sorry if I hurt your feelings about your company). If it makes it easier for you I think Amiga inc is weird to.
If they would go for x86 right now, they had to freeze development of os4.x and invest a lot of money into AmigaOS again. They stated they are not made of money and have already invested quite a big sum of money into AmigaOS already, if money was no object we would all be running OS4.x on x86 in 5 years I think, but sadly business is all about money and if they were going to port AmigaOS to x86 where would the money for that development come from?
A company needs to make money to be able to live, so the big question is, how is Hyperion going to make big money with AmigaOS? Think about it for a while, I think we are going for very exciting times in the Amiga world!
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An Amiga in a joystick might sell.
It used to be fun when the Amiga was cutting edge, but it isn't, to borrow from another thread, the whole idea of snapshots in 2009 is a bit like film cameras. In order to build apps for the Amiga you have to start from scratch, iPhone gives you all the tools, if I want to add a browser bit to my App calls to the Safari api are right there. And the OS doesn't help you and without memory protection it actually fights you at times.
Sorry about the rant...
(http://www.madison.com/wsj/forums/images/avatars/76433482947bd0684ba4d1.jpg)
Wasn't someone working on an IDE for Amiga? I thought I read something about it being good and that Amiga, Inc. hired him to continue developing it. He seemed like a really good guy.
With a quality IDE for new new AmigaOS it might be easier to port/develop applications for it. No?
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It did not sound as if he worked on an Os4 app for Amiga.inc, but more as if it was an AA2 IDE.
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It was some good number, but you're forgetting one very important point.
Jeri didn't build a computer. She built a way to play all your old favorite C64 games in a joystick form.
True but it could also be used as a computer with some modifications. Hi-Toro originally was tasked with building a game machine and Jay Minor had the vision to say, let's make it a computer that plays games.
Unless that machine is comparable to what is currently available in the PC and/or Mac world both on a price and performance level, then I'm afraid you'd be in for a bit of disappointment.
Most people cannot fathom paying $2k (or even 1k)+ for a desktop machine with an unsupported OS that runs slower than their $399 laptop from Dell. Dedicated hobbyists, sure, but they're not "normal" where the average computer buyer is concerned.
Why does it have to cost $2K. If they'd use off the shelf components they could certainly get the cost down significantly.
Build the Amiga on a joystick, add in the top 50 games and/or a way to import them off of SD memory card and yeah, it'd sell a few hundred thousand at best, but that's still not enough, because it's sales/impact would be a short-lived event and there's not much to follow that up with...
I agree, don't make an Amiga joystick - make a modern computer with AmigaOS. With a full IDE and get developers to port software.
Everyone these days wants real computers, or wants popular and expandable game consoles (XBox PS3, Wii, etc) but no one wants an underpowered, overpriced desktop solution with zero software support.
I'll have to disagree that any Amiga solution by nature has to be over priced and underpowered. Firstly, AmigaOS is hardly as bloated as other leading OSs. It doesn't require as much horse power to run to begin with. Besides, if they can use readily available off the shelf components why does it have to be overpriced, underpowered, etc.
I think we've all become really jaded. I'd love to see a new complete system with IDE. I'd be happy to have AmigaOS running Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice. Then I'd work towards other applications on it. The bottom line is, I've never been happy with any other Operating System and I've used a lot of them.
Sorry to be so brutal, and yes, you'd think as "the Amiga.org guy" I'd be a little more supportive, but I've been fighting this fight to no avail for 15 years now and still no one (except maybe Dammy and AROS) "gets it".
I understand being tired. I understand it's not easy to enter into a saturated market where PC hardware is now a commodity. I certainly understand how you feel. I know it's an Amiga comeback would be nigh imossible but you know what.
I am still interested. Bring it on, show me something new - Show me an OS that looks good but is still streamilined and it doesn't feel like the machine is designed to run the OS, the OS is just there as part of the machine to run the software.
I'm ready, if it actually happens - I'm there and I know that many other old time Amiga fans are still watching, waiting and hoping for something concrete.
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Hi Wayne,
Didn't Jeri sell like over a million of those C64 Joysticks on QVC? I think we might all be surprised the number of lurkers that hold Amiga fondly in their hearts who would buy a new computer if it was released. A lot of it depends on price point that they can achieve and if they can get a modern web browser on it. Why is porting Firefox so hard?
-Nyle
Dependencies, Dependencies of Dependencies, Dependencies of Dependencies of Dependencies
Interfacing with the Amiga OS GUI, more dependencies. Though that could be done like the Mac OS port of OpenOffice.org and use X. It took that effort 5 years from a stable port to get a native GUI.
Programmers. I was on the list for the OpenOffice.org port effort lead by the Frieden brothers. There were like three other active programmers with only a few other occasional contributers.
Not sure the Mozilla bounty is doing much better.
And I've been waiting quite awhile for an IDE...
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Why does it have to cost $2K. If they'd use off the shelf components they could certainly get the cost down significantly.
At which point, just buy a PC and grab a copy of UAE.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q285/the_leander/Simples.jpg)
I agree, don't make an Amiga joystick - make a modern computer with AmigaOS. With a full IDE and get developers to port software.
Not going to happen. Beyond hobbyists the Amiga is a dead platform. I remember when I was following BeOS and it's (as it turned out, ill fated) revival back on 03-06, even getting relatively small apps ported like AbiWord was a monumental effort, as was Firefox and BeOS had the benefits of being relatively Unix like in file structure as well as Posix compliance. Porting things to the Amiga, especially with it lacking many development tools that many of todays coders would take for granted on other platforms would make it a no go proposition, even if the Amiga community had as many devs as the BeOS one still does.
I'll have to disagree that any Amiga solution by nature has to be over priced and underpowered.
Small production runs = big cost per unit and there is no way of getting around that.
Firstly, AmigaOS is hardly as bloated as other leading OSs.
Stop right there. If you are talking about entering the embedded space, the size of the OS is important, for desktop systems, it is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that matters is capability and reliability. As it stands, AmigaOS could not be ported to any PC for sale today with the exception of Mini-ITX and netbooks due to the prevelance of multi processors in PCs.
It doesn't require as much horse power to run to begin with. Besides, if they can use readily available off the shelf components why does it have to be overpriced, underpowered, etc.
Because due to the AmigaOS's inherent deficiencies, you are limited either to rolling your own or using very niche (and price-performance wise) none too great hardware.
I think we've all become really jaded. I'd love to see a new complete system with IDE.
Not going to happen, this is not being jaded, it is being realistic, there simply isn't the manpower available to the community any more.
I'd be happy to have AmigaOS running Firefox
No you wouldn't. Firefox haemorrhage's ram, especially when you start lobbing in addons. Without memory protection you'd end up with a browser even less stable then Voyager 3.1 was, and that's saying something!
OpenOffice.
Good luck with that. BeOS is a far easier target to port to and it was beyond them in anything like a reasonable timeframe - even at the height of that scene's resurgence.
Then I'd work towards other applications on it. The bottom line is, I've never been happy with any other Operating System and I've used a lot of them.
And that is your absolute right. But be aware that beyond people with a soft spot for the old girl, serious development for the platform is over. The last big push for Amiga software was 1997-2000, after that it's been downhill all the way since both in terms of quantity and quality of software.
I understand being tired. I understand it's not easy to enter into a saturated market where PC hardware is now a commodity. I certainly understand how you feel. I know it's an Amiga comeback would be nigh imossible but you know what.
Outside of someone pumping in more money into the scene then sub saharan Africas GDP and ripping the rights to the name and IP out of the cold dead hands of billy boy, there is precisely zero chance of it being a player. And if I'm blunt: To get to the point where it could compete would require a root and branch redesign of the whole OS in order to bring it up to snuff.
Quite frankly the only thing that will continue the Amiga in terms of hardware is the MiniMig. I won't even say the NatAmi on the basis that it's shaping up to be the next BoXeR. The Amiga is now, and will forever be at this stage in the game, a hobbyist device from a bygone era.
I am still interested. Bring it on, show me something new - Show me an OS that looks good but is still streamilined and it doesn't feel like the machine is designed to run the OS, the OS is just there as part of the machine to run the software.
I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Try an Enlightenment based linux if you want fast and flashy.
I'm ready, if it actually happens - I'm there and I know that many other old time Amiga fans are still watching, waiting and hoping for something concrete.
Whilst Billy boy and hyperion try to rip each other off, there is no point in continuing any discussion on the matter of "Amiga's Future". With few exceptions, the past 9 years has been filled with lies, fraud and mind numbingly stupid business moves by everyone involved. The show has been run by crooks and the users have been suckered and made to suffer for it.
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With a quality IDE for new new AmigaOS it might be easier to port/develop applications for it. No?
Port: Certainly not.
Develop: IDE can't write the program for you, so not really.
The real problem for any amigalike OS is the lack of market. No serious software house will ever even consider doing any work for these platforms unless if the potential market is at least several magnitudes larger.
Having quality IDE will not fix this.
It's a hobby. It's time to accept this.
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Port: Certainly not.
Develop: IDE can't write the program for you, so not really.
The real problem for any amigalike OS is the lack of market. No serious software house will ever even consider doing any work for these platforms unless if the potential market is at least several magnitudes larger.
Having quality IDE will not fix this.
It's a hobby. It's time to accept this.
This is why Amiga community needs freelance programmers - and proprietary applications designed specifically for Amiga.
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@the_leander
That was the best "down to earth" post I have ever read on a.org i think.
I'm (long ago) fed up with the crooks and I'll be behind Aros instead. I don't have to ever pay for overpriced hardware again, and since Aros is my hobby OS, every penny I spend on it I can decide to input to bounties or pay developers directly.
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This is why Amiga community needs freelance programmers - and proprietary applications designed specifically for Amiga.
freelance is in "never going to see a penny for my work" ?
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This is why Amiga community needs freelance programmers - and proprietary applications designed specifically for Amiga.
Niether of which are going to happen - the platform is dead as a serious proposition. Hobbyists yes, professionals no.
As I said, without a truly biblical amount of cash injected into the Amiga, it will remain a purely hobbyist platform. Even with the offer of such cash, with the current legal nonsense going on it is pointless in the extreme to even think about.
Seriously, the Amiga will never become a viable platform again for professional development. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.
--edit--
Damnit... Piru did it better.
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Niether of which are going to happen - the platform is dead as a serious proposition. Hobbyists yes, professionals no.
As I said, without a truly biblical amount of cash injected into the Amiga, it will remain a purely hobbyist platform. Even with the offer of such cash, with the current legal nonsense going on it is pointless in the extreme to even think about.
Seriously, the Amiga will never become a viable platform again for professional development. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.
--edit--
Damnit... Piru did it better.
It's a hobby on it's death bed. Unless your getting new people interested in the "Amiga" community, your population of users is declining. There are only so many people interested in dealing with a 1980s-1990s OS on ancient hardware (or over priced, under preforming hardware). You want to see Amiga Community's future, look at the pictures from AmiWest as that is the Amiga Community's destiny.
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It's a hobby on it's death bed. Unless your getting new people interested in the "Amiga" community, your population of users is declining. There are only so many people interested in dealing with a 1980s-1990s OS on ancient hardware (or over priced, under preforming hardware). You want to see Amiga Community's future, look at the pictures from AmiWest as that is the Amiga Community's destiny.
I can't disagree with any of that.
I guess my major concern is that some folks simply cannot get past "Amiga is the next big thing and will totally pwn Microsoft". It's offputting to people interested in trying it out as a retro system.
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The AmigaOS 4.1 review on OSNews.com ( http://www.osnews.com/story/21826/sam440ep_AmigaOS_4_1 ) sums it up nicely...
"However, said fun and coolness comes at a massive price, and this time, I'm not talking about the price of the soft and hardware. Despite the lipstick the developers put on the system (in the form of transparency and other fanciness) it's still very clear that the AmigaOS is a relic, a thing from the past. The application portfolio is outdated, lacking, and incapable, there's no protected memory, and many configuration panels are overwhelmingly difficult to understand and use."
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The AmigaOS 4.1 review on OSNews.com ( http://www.osnews.com/story/21826/sam440ep_AmigaOS_4_1 ) sums it up nicely...
"However, said fun and coolness comes at a massive price, and this time, I'm not talking about the price of the soft and hardware. Despite the lipstick the developers put on the system (in the form of transparency and other fanciness) it's still very clear that the AmigaOS is a relic, a thing from the past. The application portfolio is outdated, lacking, and incapable, there's no protected memory, and many configuration panels are overwhelmingly difficult to understand and use."
Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for. And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.
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Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for. And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.
That's the problem isn't it "anyone who's ever used an Amiga". It's the same attitude that keeps Linux from being usable by anyone on the desktop, the developers and existing user are all used too it's fault and "know" what they need to do already.
New users are scorned and told to read the forums etc. It takes someone techy enough to get past all of that and start using it, by the time you've done so, you're one of those who already knows what extras you need.
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Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for. And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.
Which was exactly his point... :)
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"It seems that Bill stopped talking to me about a year or so ago when I expressed my general disinterest at a ping he made as to using Amiga.org to support the cell-phone gaming community."
Wow, thank you for that!
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Build the Amiga on a joystick, add in the top 50 games and/or a way to import them off of SD memory card and yeah, it'd sell a few hundred thousand at best, but that's still not enough, because it's sales/impact would be a short-lived event and there's not much to follow that up with...
Well, an Amiga in a joystick is a quick and cheap way to start to make some money, and show there is an Amiga company at least doing "something". The hardware has already been reimplemented with the minimig. Some companiess already released some of their game on backtoroots. So the "only" thing needed would be to make the minimig smaller and possibly within only a single ship, design a joystick, contact some companies to have a dozen of games, build, produce and distribute it.
That would be a good start... That's the first thing, with the release of 1.x roms for free, I'd do.
Since there is no money to make, nor to found the development of the OS, open sourcing what can be would be a good idea.
Whatever happens, "open" must be the word... Everything gone so bad because people and/or technology have been so closed for the last decades... no cooperation, closed source, wars,..
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@Wayne
Well, if he was that nice he wouldn't stop talking to you because of that...
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...
If they wanted to impress anyone, they'd have pulled an Apple and put AmigaOS on true commodity hardware, not one-offs and closed-end hardware from questionable developers/vendors.
Wayne
hear hear - I'll second that :-)
Tom UK
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How depressing
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I can't disagree with any of that.
I guess my major concern is that some folks simply cannot get past "Amiga is the next big thing and will totally pwn Microsoft". It's offputting to people interested in trying it out as a retro system.
Who said it had to "pwn" Microsoft. I still think there is room for a niche platform with an innovative that's marketed well and spans several niche areas. Yes, the current OS still needs development. Yes, it would require investment. I understand Amiga, Inc. has taken us no where. I also understand that many people don't want to develop software for free. Although, there were certainly a lot of people like that back in the day. There still are in the Open Source community - so I find it hard to "be realistic" and give up.
Hyperion has at least tried to continue developing the OS. It would be nice to not see all of the Amiga legacy be only a retro hobby computer. It would be nice to see it even as a minor Alternative platform. Do I trust Amiga, Inc. to do it - not by a long shot but it's amazing to me that so many people don't want to even dream anymore.
Is Linux(UNIX)/BSD(Mac OSX) and Windows really the best the OS world has to offer. If so, it doesn't look like I'll see an innovative OS again in my lifetime and that is truly sad.
...and how in the world does someone dreaming of seeing an AmigaOS based OS running on new hardware keep anyone from getting into retro Amiga? OI!
Oh, well - I didn't start this thread to have so many depressing discussions. I was only curious if anyone had heard any news on the lawsuit. Apparently, other than that they are in negotiations - no one has anything concrete on the subject.
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The thing is the Amiga doesn't have to take over the world again. Computer operating systems will matter less and less in the future as applications move to the web. Online capability is definitely an area that the Amiga needs work. Has there been any attempt to port Java?
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I must say, I'm incredible curious about what Hyperion keeps hidden in the sleeves.
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The real problem for any amigalike OS is the lack of market. No serious software house will ever even consider doing any work for these platforms unless if the potential market is at least several magnitudes larger.
Thats it. And nobody gives official numbers of sales (OS4, MorphOS) so nobody knows how "big" the current market is. Everything is a secret.
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That's the problem isn't it "anyone who's ever used an Amiga". It's the same attitude that keeps Linux from being usable by anyone on the desktop, the developers and existing user are all used too it's fault and "know" what they need to do already.
New users are scorned and told to read the forums etc. It takes someone techy enough to get past all of that and start using it, by the time you've done so, you're one of those who already knows what extras you need.
i don't know where you are looking but I use Ubuntu and have been very well treated in the Ubuntu forums. and I don't have problems using it.
and, yes, it's WAAAAAAY more fun than windos
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I still think there is room for a niche platform with an innovative that's marketed well and spans several niche areas. Yes, the current OS still needs development.
That's the problem, though. AmigaOS hasn't been innovative since the early 90's. Even then, the platform was struggling to keep up with advancements in mainstream personal computer hardware and software.
The folks at Hypersion are doing an admirable job of keeping AmigaOS alive, but in my opinion, that's all they're doing. They need to produce more than just another target for emulating OS-friendly m68k applications and compiling portable open source software.
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That's the problem, though. AmigaOS hasn't been innovative since the early 90's. Even then, the platform was struggling to keep up with advancements in mainstream personal computer hardware and software.
The folks at Hypersion are doing an admirable job of keeping AmigaOS alive, but in my opinion, that's all they're doing. They need to produce more than just another target for emulating OS-friendly m68k applications and compiling portable open source software.
Why? Why do they need to do more, to compete against other more mainstream OSes? Can't and won't happen because it is not profitable and they are a business, not a charitable organization.
Hyperion is trying to make a buck from what is left of a group that won't let go of the past and is slowly dying. Anyone who thinks they are trying to do more than that needs a reality check, IMHO.
If the tiny group of developers and OS coders that still have any interest in the Amiga community have some kind of miraculous revelation some night in their dreams and awaken to invent a new way for humans to interact and interface with computers that will make all of our lives easier, AND it has not already been thought of by someone, or some group from the other OS camps, OR it can somehow miraculously only be done, or be done better on some kind of next generation Amiga system, then maybe there will be some kind of change in our situation. The reality is that nothing is likely to change and we will be forced to accept that we are just part of a hobby OS and niche market that is extremely small and NOT profitable for most manufacturers and even most dealers.
Enjoy what we had, what he still have, and what is left of what we will have, or move on to something newer that suits your needs and mood better. (not specifically aimed at Trev, just ranting here)
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@amigadave
That was my point, really. :-) There's an odd, almost delusional disconnect in the Amiga community between what people think the Amiga represents (innovation in personal computing) and what it actually is (a quaint platform representative of personal computing in the 1980's).
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You know it's funny; of course, you cannot compete with modern OSes in most cases with the Amiga. That being said, if you can provide Firefox you've met 40-50% of the US users internet requirements. Add the ability to watch any type of movie and play MP3s easily and intuitively and you've captured another 20%. Finally add flash support (I know I know) and you're competing with modern OSes for 90% of non-game playing people on the market.
Many people, sadly enough, are very happy if their computer provides music capability, and modern internet connectivity. You want OS 4.x to be popular and well reviewed, provide the 3 tools above and you've got a big audience.
You'll need to have a decent word processor at some point but music and internet is key. After that you can win more support by simply adding basic apps. Backward compatible Amiga support is needed (either in emulation or native support [not likely]) for retro-enthusiasts to go and enjoy it.
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On a side note, I really wish people hadn't been duped into believing MP3 is a good thing. That one little extension to MPEG-1 has all but killed innovation in digital audio formats. Better formats exist, certainly, but the perception that MP3 is "better" than even the lowly PCM used by CD-Audio has done almost irreparable damage. :-/ (EDIT: I'll concede that it beats lugging around a box of tapes with a Walkman, but that's about it. The tapes--with the hiss filtered out--do sound better, though.)
The good news is that modern music is rarely worth listening to, so we're not really missing anything. ;-)
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It was some good number, but you're forgetting one very important point.
Jeri didn't build a computer. She built a way to play all your old favorite C64 games in a joystick form.
Unless that machine is comparable to what is currently available in the PC and/or Mac world both on a price and performance level, then I'm afraid you'd be in for a bit of disappointment.
Most people cannot fathom paying $2k (or even 1k)+ for a desktop machine with an unsupported OS that runs slower than their $399 laptop from Dell. Dedicated hobbyists, sure, but they're not "normal" where the average computer buyer is concerned.
Build the Amiga on a joystick, add in the top 50 games and/or a way to import them off of SD memory card and yeah, it'd sell a few hundred thousand at best, but that's still not enough, because it's sales/impact would be a short-lived event and there's not much to follow that up with...
Everyone these days wants real computers, or wants popular and expandable game consoles (XBox PS3, Wii, etc) but no one wants an underpowered, overpriced desktop solution with zero software support.
Wayne
I think OS4 'could' become a reasonably successful OS. Obviously they need some capital injection, an end to the legal BS, cheaper hw and a respected company at the helm but it is not beyond the realm of possibility. You can also get a snowball effect happening, now that they are selling OS4 HW and you can get the SDK, more developers will bring stuff to the table (and fix things up) which will persuade more people (realistically just ex-Amiga fans at the moment) that it's worth joining in the fun. If things keep moving forward you might even be able to use your OS4 machine as you only computer one day ;)
You've also got something like the MiniMig. I believe there is a good market for a cheap multi-FPGA implementation of a classic AGA+ chipset, esp if it was packaged and marketed properly by the respected parent company I mentioned earlier. You could not only sell it as a drop-in replacement for classic case users, but also in a retro-styled mini-ATX case :)
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That's the problem isn't it "anyone who's ever used an Amiga". It's the same attitude that keeps Linux from being usable by anyone on the desktop, the developers and existing user are all used too it's fault and "know" what they need to do already.
New users are scorned and told to read the forums etc. It takes someone techy enough to get past all of that and start using it, by the time you've done so, you're one of those who already knows what extras you need.
In essence what you are saying is that for any new OS to be successful its gotta be more or less the same of what people have been using. Fine then, stick to winblows. Why would that user want to change to a different OS if all they want is the same as what they are used to? They wouldn't. The target market for a AmigOS is not people who have never used Amiga before, its ex-Amigans. And there are lots of those. All would know what "snapshot" and DOpus mean.
With Linux its not just a case of "its different, so thats what's stopping it from being used on the desktop. The major problem with it has been not that its different, its that it requires a familiarity with the CLI. That requires a good familiarity with the file and directory structure as well as user heirarchies. This is not the same thing as pulling down a menu with an item "snapshot" in it and trying it out to see what it does. Done once its never forgotten, unlike CLI commands and switches. Or double clicking on an icon that says "DOpus file manager", with a buttons that say "drives", "copy", "move", "delete", "unarchive", "play", "show" etc, etc.
If i had a decent browser, and media support, pdf support most of what I use my Windows PC for would be covered.
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I have no first-hand knowledge, sad to say. It seems that Bill stopped talking to me about a year or so ago when I expressed my general disinterest at a ping he made as to using Amiga.org to support the cell-phone gaming community.
I emailed him way back to see if he was interested in either doing a production run of the Minimig v1.1. I thought that it might open a market for pre-loaded SD cards with an official Amiga ROM and some games and an opportunity to sell those ADFs of classic Amiga games they have on their shop website to more people.
He replied and was very polite, but wasn't interested.
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Amiga vs. Hyperion crisis is the product of careless PR and management by Amiga Inc. It's very odd to see series of unfortunate events.
This is a crazy idea, but I personally think the only way for Amiga to survive is to completely open source AmigaOS up to 3.1 and its 68000 hardwares under an agreement with Amiga Inc., the holder.
More resources, more insights to cherish the old, and bring in the new, so that the spirit of Amiga still lives on.
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Edit:
To off topic.
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Written by someone who couldn't work out what "snapshot" in the menu was for. And he looked for a built in file manager, when anyone who's ever used an Amiga would have DOpus installed.
As stated though the reviwer never had, so what iss your point.
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Since AmigaOS 4.1 is available on a new device, and it is being sold without word from the distributors that Amiga, Inc has threatened legal action against them, I would conclude that an agreement was reached for Amiga to allow Hyperion to continue with the release.
If I recall from a few years ago, AmigaOS4 was always planned on being a native PPC OS regardless, so at least that part has been completed. AmigaOS5 was supposed to be the next platform. ...
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This is a crazy idea, but I personally think the only way for Amiga to survive is to completely open source AmigaOS up to 3.1 and its 68000 hardwares under an agreement with Amiga Inc., the holder.
I think Amiga Inc. could still turn a few bucks by licensing some Chinese or other factory to make a new run of a few thousand A1200 and possibly A4000T; just look at the prices units bring on ebay.Considering with the huge drop in most computer parts from a decade ago such a rerun could be priced well under original prices.
Another idea might be selling a commodity PC with Amiga Forever pre-installed.
Any Amiga rejuvenation really needs an updated web browser/email since I am sure that is the biggest use of home computers.
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Open source or die. It's pretty obvious, I think, but seriously doubt that it will ever happen.
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Open source or die. It's pretty obvious, I think, but seriously doubt that it will ever happen.
Why bother when we already have AROS in x86 and PPC. I wouldn't be too suprised to see AROS on ARM either.
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The big drawback on AROS is the lack of hardware support, the last few "clunkers" (p3/p4) I've laid my hands on couldn't load AROS, but running it in Fusion it seems to be a nice OS...
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The big drawback on AROS is the lack of hardware support, the last few "clunkers" (p3/p4) I've laid my hands on couldn't load AROS, but running it in Fusion it seems to be a nice OS...
The biggest advantage of AROS compared to OS4 and MOS is that it boots and is usable on lots and lots of hardware out there. If you've been unlucky you should have turned to Aros-Exec for help, there's a lot of happy people willing to help you whenever they can. I have access to a lot of Fujitsu-Seimens PC's for example and I have a hard time finding one that doesn't boot Aros nowdays.
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That's it, I've got enough spare PCs and laptops lying around, time to try AROS.
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I for one applaud Hyperion for all their work on bringing OS4.1 & Sam440 to fruition! I wish all Amigans would buy OS4.1 & support their efforts :-)
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Well, that was fun, probably would've played with it longer if it supported WiFi.
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As stated though the reviwer never had, so what iss your point.
The point is that in this case, the fault lies with the reviewer not the system. Any credible reviewer would have at least gone through the items in the system menu and tried to see what they do, or RTFM, but no, this person finds that something doesn't work the exact way he expects and makes it seem if the system is incapable. The functionality of what he wants is built in and is more flexible, but he can't be arsed to learn it and so he cans the OS.