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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmigaNow on July 07, 2009, 06:15:23 PM
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I was wondering. Since there are now things for the Amiga such as the CFIDE68k, and the MiniMig was invented, how difficult would it be to have an accelerator the size of an A1200 trapdoor that had either a programmable chip or an AMD 64x2, which could emulate a very fast 68020 or 68040?
I'm thinking of a board whose sole purpose is to allow memory expansion and this emulation. Nothing else, unless it would be convenient in the case of a programmable chip to also provide USB, SATA, etc.
I'm also wondering if this emulation would run Amiga programs much faster than a real chip? I know in WinUAE it is quite fast!
Any thoughts? Would this be possible? Would you own such a device? There must be some interest in Amiga if GVP has recently come out with new accelerators?
Thanks for your consideration,
AmigaNow
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Well, it would be nice to have a super fast Amiga if you were doing 3D rendering & animating but I don't think there are many people left that still use the Amiga for such tasks.
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I was wondering. Since there are now things for the Amiga such as the CFIDE68k, and the MiniMig was invented, how difficult would it be to have an accelerator the size of an A1200 trapdoor that had either a programmable chip or an AMD 64x2, which could emulate a very fast 68020 or 68040?
I'm thinking of a board whose sole purpose is to allow memory expansion and this emulation. Nothing else, unless it would be convenient in the case of a programmable chip to also provide USB, SATA, etc.
I'm also wondering if this emulation would run Amiga programs much faster than a real chip? I know in WinUAE it is quite fast!
Any thoughts? Would this be possible? Would you own such a device? There must be some interest in Amiga if GVP has recently come out with new accelerators?
Thanks for your consideration,
AmigaNow
The problem is that when you use a modern chip like one of the nice intel or AMD chips you can use all the support chips that are very easy to interface with them!
Look here: http://www.via.com.tw/en/initiatives/spearhead/pico-itx/
That is an entire modern computer (with USB, Audio, VGA and Ethernet) on a board smaller than an Amiga trapdoor accelerator (10cm x 7.2cm)!
Then you have to wonder what the point of using the A1200 is...
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the team around natami project is apparently developing a modern 68k softcore. it seems to be an open source project. and it was stated that there are parties going to licence the softcore, but no further details were revealed. obviously as soon as such softcore is complete it could be used in an accelerator. anything else would probably be too complicated a task. we will see what will come out of this.
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With things like this, the Amiga becomes a keyboard and mouse controller.
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... until you add USB...
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With things like this, the Amiga becomes a keyboard and mouse controller.
And a pretty awkward and poor one, at that. If you're going to virtualize and throw an abstraction layer in to present a modern processor and bus to the old Amiga, why not just virtualize the rest of the old Amiga, while you're at it?
It's really confusing to figure out where retro hardware ends and modern emulation begins.
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amiga side holds still the aga chipset, as long as anyone still wants to use it. anyway im fine with using amiga as keyboard controller, my current mouse is usb but i dont want to miss the help key. just dont question the sanity of it all. it has been chewed through endless times.
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Why bother building an accelerator for the original Amigas? There are still limitations, compatibility issues, lots of hacking and fudging (hardware and software wise) for anything thats is more than a 68K type board. If someone builds an x86 based accelerator, no doubt youll need a tower, a new power supply, 3 reboots to get the thing working, itll have a "memory window" or some other fancy blurb that means its crippled in some way, and half your stuff wont work with it. LOL OK Im takin the p1ss a bit but Im sure you see where Im coming from :)
I think its more worth while in the long run to develop a decent, modern motherboard that anyone could buy build a modern new Amiga with like in the PC market.
Of course a new motherboard is probably going to cost me two bollocks and a kidney in the Amiga world so how about porting the OS to x86 and making use of cheap, available standard PC hardware? Then I can keep my bollocks and kidney!:laughing:
All this has been discussed to death before of course :)
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@Tajmaster: http://www.natami.net/
nuff said.
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... until you add USB...
Exactly!
So, instead of building an accelerator based on a modern CPU... what you really want is an amiga USB keyboard... that idea has merit...
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what you really want is an amiga USB keyboard... that idea has merit...
http://www.jschoenfeld.de/news/news109_e.htm perhaps?
Regardless, anyone here dreaming of new amiga can pretty much forget it if natami is your only hope. That project has so unrealistic targets it will never complete.
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http://www.jschoenfeld.de/news/news109_e.htm perhaps?
Regardless, anyone here dreaming of new amiga can pretty much forget it if natami is your only hope. That project has so unrealistic targets it will never complete.
not that i care too much. neither for aros or mos or os4 alltogether. but if they ever succeed i will get one for sure.
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not that i care too much. neither for aros or mos or os4 alltogether. but if they ever succeed i will get one for sure.
You can use all three now... I can't really see how they could succeed any more that that?
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@bloodline: im really sorry that i cant give you a reasonable answer. the fact is when i try aros another time it as if it just rejects me (not even when it crashes, i just play a little around get bored and then forget it). on os4 happens something similar. i have it installed, but i run it today only to test one thing or another and then switch back to 3.9. for mos i dont have hardware and i dont even know when ive run winuae for the last time. i must be a hopeless cause i guess, but being a true retard i feel good with it.
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I personally like the idea of a new style of accelerator. Nowdays you can only buy 2nd hand accelerators and they might not work.
I don't think about a big gun like PPC or faster processors. I beleive the old Amiga systems must stay 68k based so a 68030, 68040 and 68060 based accelerator is a good idea.
The Natami project is very good , I like it but that is not our much loved old HW. I am sure I will buy one but beside that I will always have the A1200.
One of the main drawback of the A1200 is its 14Mhz local bus. You can design a fast accelerator but that will always have to talk to the motherboard using 14Mhz clock driven protocol. That is why if you make different tests with different accelerators the CHIP ram read and write time is nearly the same for all. An accelerator card itself is a small computer which is fast on its own board but access to outside (towards the A1200 motherboard) is slow.
This however doesn't mean that we have to give it up!
I started to think on a new design which is using FPGA for the main bus driver plus memory controller logic and have SIMM modules (or even DIMM SDRAM) as memory. CPU would be a 68030 040 or 060 but in order to make a twist on the design and create something new I would put 2 CPUs, a 68030 and a 68040/60 on it. During power on the system would startup with the fastest CPU but if you would hold down a key a menu would appear where you could choose between the onboard 020, the accelerator's 030 or 060 CPUs. Just like in WinUAE you set the CPU type. After you have chosen the system would reboot and startup with the chosen CPU.
One more important thing would be that if you would choose the motherboard's 68020 as CPU then you could have 8MB of Fast RAM from the accelerator card (even if you have a 128MB SIMM on it).
I beleive it is possible and even if this would not make money it would be a good experience to create it. I don't know whether it will ever come true but I started to investigate the hardware docs and how the Amiga bus system works. I will make some feasibility studies and develop some part of it (e.g. DRAM controller, A1200 motherboard local bus bridge). If any of you have good, unpublished or rare doc about the A1200's inside please share that with me!
Thanks
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I don't think about a big gun like PPC or faster processors. I beleive the old Amiga systems must stay 68k based so a 68030, 68040 and 68060 based accelerator is a good idea.
There seem to be enough of the lower-end accelerators to go around, judging by prices, at least for the A1200/2000/3000/4000s. Do you think you'll get a newly designed one for less money than existing accelerators?
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Why ? Because you can ? or a technical exercise ?
http://www.lauterbach.de/frames.html?ice68020.html doesnt it already exist ? With a bit of glue and nails ?
or even http://www.lauterbach.co.uk/frames.html?ice68040.html
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There seem to be enough of the lower-end accelerators to go around, judging by prices, at least for the A1200/2000/3000/4000s. Do you think you'll get a newly designed one for less money than existing accelerators?
There are NOT enough accelerators around, what are you talking about? Every time one pops up on eBay you get a bidding war and they sell for as much as new hardware or more. One accelerator with more than one person trying to buy it means there's not enough supply, but plenty of demand.
If you make a new A1200 accelerator or RAM card, people WILL buy it. You would sell the whole run in no time. Just look how quickly GVP-m ran out of A1200 accelerators when they announced a new batch earlier in the year (or late last year, whenever it was).
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I guess it depends what kind of accelerator we're talking about. The '030 cards are fairly common, and sell for ~$200 generally. AmigaKit has had some listed at $229 for months now, either they've got a ton of them or people are holding out for something better, or are finding what they need on the used market. I doubt a newly designed and manufactured card could compete with those prices.
The '040s and (especially) '060s are another story as there seem to be a lot less of them kicking around.
As for simple RAM cards, I've never paid much attention to those when it comes to the 1200, but from what I've seen they do sell for a bit more than I'd pay for one.
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What about this project:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=36596
Looks fairly realistic to me. It is for the A600 and maybe the A500. But its a start.
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An accelerator like the one proposed here would be far faster than an 060, and that'd really give classic Amigas a well needed performance boost. 030s aren't that hard to come by, that's true, but the 060s are rare and generally go for more than most of us can afford to pay.
The 020 for the A600 and A500 is going to be awesome though, I'd gladly get a few of these once the project is finished.
I think a simple 8MB RAM card (with automatic switching to 5.5MB when the PCMCIA slot is in use) with a Real-Time Clock on it would be a nice new expansion too, and perfect for WHDLoad and basic internet stuff (even one page at a time browsing). Just like a new internal 8MB RAM/RTC/Clockport expansion for the CD32 would be awesome, especially if it had an ethernet port on it.
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hmm have allways thought of what happens to the on board 020 when an accelerator
is plugged in ? i guess its switched out the curcuit turned off ? seames a waste what with miuti cores cpu computers would it be possible to re switch it back on and use it some were like on a interupt and allocate it some ram ?
doh im not thinkin interupt a 030 to exe a 020 = slower ! maybe its a stupid post and you carnt have both cpu on the bus together they would totally crash
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Depending on accelerator design it could theoretically be possible to keep both CPUs on the bus, but don't expect anything Amigaish to support a 2nd CPU for SMP. You'd need to run a separate OS on the secondary CPU (similar to a WarpOS setup) and some elaborate method to make them communicate.
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Depending on accelerator design it could theoretically be possible to keep both CPUs on the bus, but don't expect anything Amigaish to support a 2nd CPU for SMP. You'd need to run a separate OS on the secondary CPU (similar to a WarpOS setup) and some elaborate method to make them communicate.
PowerUp ;)
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Depending on accelerator design it could theoretically be possible to keep both CPUs on the bus, but don't expect anything Amigaish to support a 2nd CPU for SMP.
Wouldn't be SMP either way, unless your second processor was the same as the one onboard (or acting like it.) Asymmetric multiprocessing, anyone?
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Many would be happy just to get their hands on a new production of PPC accelerators.$600 and up for old 200 Mhz 600 series PPC cards shows tyhere is demand.
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If you're talking about using the classic chipset (eg a 1200), the faster the accelerator the less sense it makes (as detailed above).
It makes more sense for a 3000/4000 though because they don't actually use the chipset (in which case are they even really Amiga's in the first place?).
;)
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It makes more sense for a 3000/4000 though which don't actually use the chipset (in which case are they even really Amiga's in the first place?).
;)
This nonsense requires clarification. No Amiga chipset in the 3000/4000? Where are you getting that?
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If you're talking about using the classic chipset (eg a 1200), the faster the accelerator the less sense it makes (as detailed above).
It makes more sense for a 3000/4000 though because they don't actually use the chipset (in which case are they even really Amiga's in the first place?).
;)
You seem to be a bit confused. The 1200 and 4000 share a chipset, the 3000 is closer to the "original" chipset but they're all the Amiga chipset, just different revisions.
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I also think a new PPC accelerator for classic Amigas would be kind of pointless now. First, to keep it compatible it would still need a rare/expensive 68k CPU on it. Then it'd need a PPC as well, and with this you'd still be bottlenecked by the slow A1200 bus and AGA chipset, and probably would only be able to run OS4.0 (not 4.1), and that's provided they're 100% compatible with the old 603/604 accelerators, or else Hyperion would have to make another port. It would probably end up costing as much or more than a Sam440 too.
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You seem to be a bit confused. The 1200 and 4000 share a chipset, the 3000 is closer to the "original" chipset but they're all the Amiga chipset, just different revisions.
Your typical 4000T with a Mediator, Radeon, PPC/060 etc wouldn't make use of Paula and friends in day-to-day usage.
In otherwords, how many RTG users run WB (and WB applications) in AGA :)
It would have made more sense to ditch the old planar chipset for the 3000/4000 and gone chunky RTG instead.
So to get back on topic, a super fast accelerator for the 4000....yes please, for the 1200/600/500 then no thanks.
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It'd make exactly as much use of the chipset as a 1200 with a Mediator, Radeon and PPC/060 would.
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Your typical 4000T with a Mediator, Radeon, PPC/060 etc wouldn't make use of Paula and friends in day-to-day usage.
It'd make exactly as much use of the chipset as a 1200 with a Mediator, Radeon and PPC/060 would.
In otherwords, how many RTG users run WB in AGA :)
Those are some other words. A great many RTG users out there are using classic Zorro RTG cards, and not Mediator setups. Accelerators help there, too.
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So to get back on topic, a super fast accelerator for the 4000....yes please, for the 1200/600/500 then no thanks.
Seriously, quit bundling the 1200 in with the "old" machines, it's nearly as powerful as the 4000 with the right parts. You've obviously never seen a nice 1200T setup.
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Seriously, quit bundling the 1200 in with the "old" machines, it's nearly as powerful as the 4000 with the right parts. You've obviously never seen a nice 1200T setup.
But that's my point, a nice 1200T setup with Mediator + RTG & PPC makes no sense to me.....the 1200 MB is not even being used anymore.
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But that's my point, a nice 1200T setup with Mediator + RTG & PPC makes no sense to me.....the 1200 MB is not even being used anymore.
Of course it is. What if you want to play a game of Lemmings?
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The analogy of 1950s teenagers hot-rodding old Ford Model T comes to mind;all these non-Commodore accelerators change the machine in ways never part of the original.What we may end up with is a higher performance machine that has little in common with the original.If one replaces the engine(cpu),the transmission(bus board),the wheels and tires(graphics card),the steering wheel,gearshift,and pedals(new usb mouse,keyboard,the gas tank,(memory),the seats and dashboard(display and GUI),neither machine is really a Ford(Amiga).
Both were popular machines and both are limited and considered rightfully obsolete today!
Both are nice hobby machines to be rolled out at shows and quiet weekend s,neither is ready for any superhighway.
If one wants a high performance machine for today AND insists on being "true" to the original then a new Mustang(SAM 440) is probably a better way to spend money.
Not so incidentally,I plan on thinning the herd here soon -have 15 or 20 Amigas and rarely use ANY of them anymore.Maybe I can raise enough funds for a SAM.
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Personally a mac mini for $200 Aus with ecs emulation running OS 4 would make any 68k-ppc card pointless.
I think a RAM card would be also a good seller for A1200 users who just want a flash card whdload games "console"
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What would be nice is to have a re-distribushin of some 'old' accelerator card which was available back then! Are these boards still under patent/copyright? if not, then why can't they just be copied by some company (or a group of people) and re-sold. A pre-order model could be used to make sure no money gets lost.
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What would be nice is to have a re-distribushin of some 'old' accelerator card which was available back then! Are these boards still under patent/copyright? if not, then why can't they just be copied by some company (or a group of people) and re-sold. A pre-order model could be used to make sure no money gets lost.
Any old design is a total no go. Any design now must be RoSH, so any new electronics would be a redesign.
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060 for A500... give it to me, NOW! :)
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Is the trapdoor only for ram and processors? Or could a graphics card (in theory) be designed for it?
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Is the trapdoor only for ram and processors? Or could a graphics card (in theory) be designed for it?
In theory all could happen.Problem is that amiga is not alive anymore in the commercial sense.Back in 80ies or 90ies you could go into any major store that sells computer and electronics and you could find any major supplier selling hardware and software for amiga.Nowdays amiga is just retro thing,and even if not sometimes you have to be a specialist shaman that knows magic words such as amiga os 4.x and sam 440 which most people wouldn't know.
Now in theory if amiga zorro boards and the entire amiga thing would be alive we could have expansions like these.But you see....amiga tries to catch up with the latest pc upgrades.
Mediator pci cards,usb.In my opinion we could even use amiga just as a keyboard controller and psu (easily make a new fpga p4 or ppc g5 card on the expansion slot,use 4 gigabytes of ram and make it boot into a new os.What would amiga then be?Just a keyboard and psu.)
In theory everything is possible
But how many developers are active and how much money we they want to make out of a so fragmented market as the amiga ? (morphos,amiga os 4,aros,amiga os 3.x)
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Exactly WHAT made an AMIGA special ?
I submit it was a combination of the OS and the custom chips for sound and video.And I submit the world-wide switch to digital video and audio makes those special Amiga chips advantages irrelevant now.
The Amiga OS can be rewritten to run on commodity hardware.It was done already with Amithlon,it can be done again.Amiga Forever on modern PCs outruns original Amigas as well.
It is silly of purists to reject Amiga OS x86 as not true Amiga because TRUE Amiga means maximim of 68060 cpu,16 meg RAM,etc. just as sold by Commodore,Escom,Quikpak .(A case can be made that PPC accelerator cards are in the spirit of the original Amiga.)How many insist Apple computers sold since Apple's change of cpu are not truly Apples?Would Commodore have switched cpu families ?
Is not Amiga OS THE single defining difference now ?So it would be nice if Amiga OS would run on all widely available platforms,by which I mean x86,PPC , and whatever is in super smartphones.I believe this is what Amiga,Inc. had as their vision but lacked the resources to do it.
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Indeed, X86 architecture can't be Amiga... Amiga means more than a simple OS, if you want some kind of Amiga OS on your peecee install AROS.
Or even better, buy a X86, and put an Amiga sticker on it... Yeah you got a "real amiga".
Amiga is a complete architecture different from X86, Macs were different from X86 either, and Mac will turn to a bare OS, and some stylish manufacturer for PC users in a few years. Just in the way NEC wasted it's PC98 system.
I'm envous about atarians that really have clear X86 CAN'T be an Atari.
We have the Power architecture, Coldfire processors or even ARM... We don't need an X86...
A "great future" is ahead if every systems turns to X86... Bargh.
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Amiga Forever on modern PCs outruns original Amigas as well.
by several(!) magnitudes...:juggler:
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by several(!) magnitudes...:juggler:
Only the JIT does. The chipset emulation bogs down heavily when running software that pushes the limits. Also, the JIT disables the possibility of debugging when writing new software so you have to disable the JIT when attempting to do so.
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Lets say just for the minute that a super fast accelerator was complete.
Ok so here it is, hmmmmm I think it is fair to say the price would be staggering to say the least.
it would still be far cheaper to get an AMD athlon and go the Amikit or some other way for the penny for penny.
When it comes down to Amiga then we all have to pay HIGH prices, its to late for any kind of accelerator to come to the hight street or any other kind of street as far as Amiga goes.
Amiga = HIGH prices like it or not.
I would have thought the easy rout would be for an AMD Athlon take it from there, and far cheaper to.
Example USB card how much? , then see a bog standard USB card fo any PC far far lower priced.
So whats the money for the USB card or the drivers?
For me until some thing far more realistic comes along its my Athlon and Amikit.
So if any of you want a cheap up to date Amiga system forget it, it simply will never happen.
Unless a single chip design or near enough and a good set of heads in the company.
But so far all I have heard is the waiting game.................... waiting to be told it cant be done, waiting to be told its going to cost the earth, waiting to be told well certain parties are in talks, waiting to be told when hell freezes over.
Mike.
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A friend of mine who worked at the same IT mag as I does electronic design, FPGA work, etc. from time to time. He said creating a card that had, say, a 1.2ghz Intel Atom on board that emulated any of the m68k family at a blistering pace was no problem.
Of course, getting such a beast to interface with the archaic, arcane and downright cryptic ins-and-outs of Amiga circuitry...that's another matter altogether!
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...............I plan on thinning the herd here soon -have 15 or 20 Amigas and rarely use ANY of them anymore.Maybe I can raise enough funds for a SAM.
Warning!!! OFF TOPIC: To recidivist, or any other Amiga collector that has many Amiga computers that are not being used, please consider attempting to get your un-used Amiga computers into the hands of a new Amiga enthusiast. It is not an easy task to get anyone interested in such a old and limited computer system, but there are a few exceptional people still out there that will find the Amiga an interesting diversion. If we can find just one person who will continue their interest and become a programmer who writes code for AmigaOS3.x, AmigaOS4.x, MorphOS2.x, or AROS, then the effort we expend to give, auction, or sell our un-used Amiga computer systems to those special individuals will be well rewarded and a benefit to all of the Amiga community.
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He said creating a card that had, say, a 1.2ghz Intel Atom on board that emulated any of the m68k family at a blistering pace was no problem.
Cept someone would have to write the emulation. Existing m68k emulators could be the basis but all the I/O do not really exist. Wont be a 10 min thing.
Of course, getting such a beast to interface with the archaic, arcane and downright cryptic ins-and-outs of Amiga circuitry...that's another matter altogether!
I bet it is financially not-viable.
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@tone007
It's off topic, but I am intrigued with your avatar, is that a Commodore Pet monitor with Workbench on the screen?
As for a new accelerator, I would love to see a new batch of 030, 040, 060 boards for all model Amigas. Although A1200 and A4000 seems like the best candidates. Just image if it were possible if you could get a new 060 board for your A1200 for about than 150 US dollars. I am dreaming but it doesn't make sense that they couldn't reproduce exsisting board designs in China for a reasonable cost. Even with smaller production runs. Then again there are other factors I am sure.
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@tone007
It's off topic, but I am intrigued with your avatar, is that a Commodore Pet monitor with Workbench on the screen?
It's an Educator 64, which is a standard C64 board in a PET case. In the pic it's running the Contiki OS (complete with telnet client, www browser and server, and plasma screensaver!)
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I would not bother emulating he 68k CPUs when they are available still (even if they are second hand). My plan is to use CPLD or FPGA to create the bridging device which is between the A1200 and the 68040/60 CPU. Towards the 68040/60 it is a bus arbiter while towards the A1200 motherboard it emulates a 68020 CPU's bus cycles. Beleive it or not the A1200's Channel Z port is not a magical unknown area. You can find useful information on it if you read docs carefully.
For me the Amiga is the 68k architecture and not the PPCs. I don't want graphic card or any other CPU that is not 68k compatible. All I want is faster calculation and RAM. I don't want to make money out of this, I am just interested in FPGAs and digital circuits and this seems to be an interesting project to have fun.
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I would not bother emulating he 68k CPUs when they are available still (even if they are second hand). My plan is to use CPLD or FPGA to create the bridging device which is between the A1200 and the 68040/60 CPU. Towards the 68040/60 it is a bus arbiter while towards the A1200 motherboard it emulates a 68020 CPU's bus cycles. Beleive it or not the A1200's Channel Z port is not a magical unknown area. You can find useful information on it if you read docs carefully.
For me the Amiga is the 68k architecture and not the PPCs. I don't want graphic card or any other CPU that is not 68k compatible. All I want is faster calculation and RAM. I don't want to make money out of this, I am just interested in FPGAs and digital circuits and this seems to be an interesting project to have fun.
I would like to see a softcore 680x0 CPU accelerator in FPGA made someday that can exceed the speed of the fastest 68060. Is it possible to create a 68000 softcore (which is already available) that can run at 200MHz to 400MHz, or would a 75MHz to 100MHz 68060 still be faster?
If a 68020 softcore is ever finished and could run at the same 200MHz to 400MHz or faster, would that be the logical direction for future Classic Amiga accelerators to look into? I think this is what the Natami team is researching and trying to accomplish, or perhaps they are still looking at creating a more advanced 680x0 softcore design.
Hopefully when Jens completes his Clone-A project, there will be the possibility to create a new Amiga Clone computer completely from one or many FPGA chips that can operate many times faster than any Classic Amiga ever could. Keeping the timing compatible with older Amiga programs and games, while at the same time increasing the speed of all of the Amiga custom chips that Clone-A has moved into FPGA chips will be a challenge that must be considered.
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It's an Educator 64, which is a standard C64 board in a PET case. In the pic it's running the Contiki OS (complete with telnet client, www browser and server, and plasma screensaver!)
That is really cool. I would love to get a closer look at that set up! I am not familiar with Educator 64 or Contiki OS I'll have to read about that.
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Kind of like the accelerator cards for my old Mac IIci ,etc.?
Leave everything original but the cpu and supercharge that?
Do they custom chips really calculate much or do they just display the data presented by the cpu?
Don't some late programs require a 68030,web browsers?
I remember a rare but commercial 50 mhz 040 for the 400 and pretty sure there was a 80 mhz 040 for Apples.
a 200 mhz 680x0 would be awesome!
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@recidivist
The Amiga custom chips do an awful heckuva lot! Trying to emulate them with OpenGL or DirectX would require a lot of CPU intervention or extensive shader support or both.
Apple used to overclock their 680x0 chips.
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and pretty sure there was a 80 mhz 040 for Apples.
This was marketing, as by design the '040 internally ran 2x bus frequency. A lot of amiga '040 cards advertised at 40MHz also ran 80MHz internally (TekMagic, Cyberstorm, Apollo, etc), but 80MHz bus simply wasn't possible.
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A 68020 compatible core (possibly with a few 040 user mode extensions such as move16) implemented in an FPGA would seem the best bet to me. I don't know how feasible that is, but if it could be done would be an ideal accelerator base maybe. If it could be implemented, along with a basic memory controller that allows generic DDR memory (simply based on availability) that'd be nice.
Something like that would certainly have me interested :)
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A 68020 compatible core (possibly with a few 040 user mode extensions such as move16) implemented in an FPGA would seem the best bet to me. I don't know how feasible that is, but if it could be done would be an ideal accelerator base maybe. If it could be implemented, along with a basic memory controller that allows generic DDR memory (simply based on availability) that'd be nice.
Something like that would certainly have me interested :)
Me too! I think it can be done, and will very likely be completed by someone, or some group in the near future (1 to 3 years). The longer it takes to be invented, the less people will still be around here and interested in paying for it, as the Amiga community continues to splinter and disintegrate.
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Regarding the original suggestion, it's hard to see how using a "fast and cheap" x86 makes sense when you can just run UAE to the same end and have less latency from the rest of the system.
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SDRAM and later memory modules became 64 bits wide which complicates a bit the bus design between the 32 bit processor and the RAM. It is interesting however that the operation of synchronous RAM (e.g. SDRAM) is much more simpler than an asynchronous SIMM's. SDRAM would be an ideal choice for the accelerator but this 64bit wide operation must be solved somehow. I don't want to waste half of the capacity of one module just because the design is simpler that way.
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Why not? SDRAM modules are common as mud and the 32Mb (using a 64MB module) is enough for Amigas!
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Some time in 2010, Jens will release the Chameleon for the c64. If you're of the attitude that the upgrade makes the main machine pointless, then the chameleon is ridiculous. It's basically a computer by itself and, iirc, can even run as standalone c64 emulator without even having a c64 attached. It has ps/2 and vga ports. And it can run the c64 in various accelerated modes, or not at all.
I'd like to see something like this for the 500/2000 and the 1200. You plug it into either the 68000 socket, cpu socket, or the 1200 expansion port (ideally the same board doing all three with adapters if that's even possible). The board would have an FPGA (I think, i'm not a hardware person) that emulates any 68k chip or even a powerpc. Ideally, it could emulate the AGA chipsets for the 500 and 2000. It would include ide and scsi ports. A CF hard drive could be supported through those adapters. It would include two clock ports and maybe ethernet. USB could be supported through the clock port with a subway, or more ideally, just built in for 2.0 support.
Of course, 128mb or 256mb of ram.
If you really wanted to get crazy, instead of including ide or usb on the board, just include a zorro 3 slot. I bet you could squeeze a deneb into a 1200 that way, or a buddha board for a 500, parallel to the motherboard.
RTG, vga, ps/2 mouse and keyboard, and catweasel-style support for 1.44mb floppy drives could even be included. Although some of this could be handled through indivision and lyra type upgrades.
The board could support all kinds of options through the boot menu. Choose a CPU, chipset, and whatever other options.
In the end, it would be a ridiculous upgrade, just like the chameleon. But the user could choose any configuration they want, yes, just like WinUAE. But WinUAE still wouldn't be an amiga. To me, the ultimate hardware upgrade would be more fun than WinUAE.
brian
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That would be HOT. I'd love to plug such a thing into my A500. I always wondered why someone didn't just make a board which went into the 1200's accelerator slot, had a USB2 cable at the other end, and essentially made the 1200 a slave to the modern machine on the other end. USB2's bandwidth exceeds anything happening inside the 1200, it could just see the other box as a really fast accelerator. But at that point, why not just do a little Atom board on a trapdoor slot size form factor?
Even looking at the Efika's 700mips speed-that's more than twice a Cyberstorm's oomph, plus it has PCI. Someone could make a CPU board based on its design, with the hangup being big box Amiga CPU slot>PCI interface. Then you'd even have all those little Efika extras-legit ethernet, IDE, decent sound-the gang's all here. The Efika was $100, seems like an accel based on it wouldn't have to be much more than about $300. And it would even run super cool! Just blue skying here..
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I think the only "legitimate" upgrades would be those that provides a super-speed 68K cpu ,additional ram to the limits of Amiga OS 3.x(perhaps 4.0 classic?),scandoubler/flickerfixer,and peripheral devices through usb and ethernet.
Once we no longer use the custom chipsets and their special features I believe it is no long an "Amiga",but rather "Amiga-like".
If the upgraded system can't use the software originally sold for Amiga then it must of necessity be considered something else,perhaps AmigaNG(new generation).
Still a 300 MHz 68030 might be fun!
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That would be HOT. I'd love to plug such a thing into my A500. I always wondered why someone didn't just make a board which went into the 1200's accelerator slot, had a USB2 cable at the other end, and essentially made the 1200 a slave to the modern machine on the other end. USB2's bandwidth exceeds anything happening inside the 1200, it could just see the other box as a really fast accelerator.
USB2 has a theoretical peak bandwidth of up to 480Mb/s (megabits/sec). In actual use you'll not see that sort of speed. My USB2.0 hard disk can pump data at around 30MB/s, which is certainly not faster than (for example) local memory speed on a good accelerator card.
Of course, the main problem with USB is not so much the theoretical bandwidth but the latency. USB is a serial, packet based protocol, pretty much designed for streaming data between devices. Latency there is not that big an issue, a few milliseconds point to point lag doesn't matter as long as the packets keep transferring at a continuous rate. That's not true for your A1200 trapdoor where you have dozens of independent (and interdependent) signals to worry about. Hardware interrupts and the like don't need to be held up by being encapsulated into a USB packet, sent down a wire to a host, which in turn will be interrupted to deal with it and so on (yes I realise USB has interrupt and control transfers but I don't think their timing requirements are necessarily suitable for dealing with stuff happening inside your miggy).
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I think the only "legitimate" upgrades would be those that provides a super-speed 68K cpu ,additional ram to the limits of Amiga OS 3.x(perhaps 4.0 classic?),scandoubler/flickerfixer,and peripheral devices through usb and ethernet.
Once we no longer use the custom chipsets and their special features I believe it is no long an "Amiga",but rather "Amiga-like".
If the upgraded system can't use the software originally sold for Amiga then it must of necessity be considered something else,perhaps AmigaNG(new generation).
Still a 300 MHz 68030 might be fun!
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Even a super speed 68000. Choose the chip and clock speed. The idea is that you could dial in the machine to whatever you want at the time. If you want to play classic games, run the machine in super-speed 68000 mode for the UI, then hotkey to a menu to slow down the clock to 8mhz. Choose 1.3 roms. Later you can switch to a 68060 with 3.1 roms to do other things.
I'd still want to emulate the powerPC so I could run that software, or a newer version of the OS. But not at the expense of actual 68k goodness. You could even emulate some of the intel upgrades, like the golden gate 486 board, or that at-once 286 thing.
You could choose to use the amiga chipset sound hardware, or emulate various zorro 2 add-in sound cards. I know there was a soundcard, can't remember which, that added 2 more channels with each one you put it. Maybe the upgrade could provide virtual zorro slots for things like that, emulate 4 of those sound cards for 8 channels, but unify the output into a pair of RCAs.
What if instead of a 128mb or 256mb simm, you could plug in a 1gb simm. Then you could partition the memory into multiple "machines". Freeze one, then switch to another, sort of rebooting the 1200 when switching between them.
Basically, it's WinUAE and its hardware emulation on a 1200 accelerator upgrade board, or something to go in the 2000 CPU slot, with all the hardware interfaces.
brian
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Interesting ideas... It is good to have this brainstorming, maybe someone will use these ideas in the future.
I however still think that a normal 68k CPU board with 512MB SDRAM, a 030 and a 060 processor on it would be much more realistic. CPU could be selected on boot menu and in addition probably USB and Ethernet support could be added to the FPGA if there is space left in it. Next development step could be to replace the CPU with an FPGA based emulated 68k.
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I have just made some progress with planning and documentation reading. I am now concentrating on the memory controller part and found out that indeed it is not difficult to connect a 64bit wide SDRAM to the 32bit CPU bus. SDRAM modules use mask pins (DQM) with which you can easily mask out the upper or lower 32bit data based on address.
Here are some of my specs:
1. Using PC133 SO-DIMM memory modules (1 maybe two SO-DIMM slots)
2. Supported RAM modules 32MB,64MB,128MB,256MB,512MB which gives in theory 1GB max memory with two SO-DIMM slots. These modules are very cheap nowdays as second hand.
3. No burst mode due to lack of L2 cache. Next design will have 128K L2 cache.
4. 3.3v board using 68060 CPU
5. One old FPGA for 5v interfacing with Amiga, one new FPGA for memory controller and additional interfaces
6. possibility for future extension with 10/100 ethernet and USB 2.0 support on 2nd FPGA.
7. written in VHDL
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There are tons of options and FPGA's that can do quite a lot so you can have a CPU implemented in FPGA along with GFX, sound, etc. The only way something will get done is as a labor of love by an Amiga fanatic. Something like the minimig project where the sources BOM and PCB layout are released to the public. The Non recoverable engineering costs are a heavy load to bear for a small company.
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I have just made some progress with planning and documentation reading. I am now concentrating on the memory controller part and found out that indeed it is not difficult to connect a 64bit wide SDRAM to the 32bit CPU bus. SDRAM modules use mask pins (DQM) with which you can easily mask out the upper or lower 32bit data based on address.
I was wondering when you notice that ;-)
Anyway, another way of doing this is to connect the 64 bits to one 32bit wide bus.
and switch the control signals. But, SDRAM is not the way to go anymore ...
To slow.
1. Using PC133 SO-DIMM memory modules (1 maybe two SO-DIMM slots)
2. Supported RAM modules 32MB,64MB,128MB,256MB,512MB which gives in theory 1GB max memory with two SO-DIMM slots. These modules are very cheap nowdays as second hand.
3. No burst mode due to lack of L2 cache. Next design will have 128K L2 cache.
4. 3.3v board using 68060 CPU
5. One old FPGA for 5v interfacing with Amiga, one new FPGA for memory controller and additional interfaces
6. possibility for future extension with 10/100 ethernet and USB 2.0 support on 2nd FPGA.
7. written in VHDL
to 1 & 2) If it has to be cheap, use on SO-DIMM. Also is much nicer to design cases it the long DIMMM Modules are not standing up, just as a reminder. Could be a nice flat board.
Personally, I would solder the RAM to the board. Less headaches with different versions of so-dimm modules/manufacturers
to 3) Careful ! You're missing something again. CPUs burst all the time, and you wanted to have an AGA in it to, right ? Yust make some calculations how much bandwidth you need and how much you get, using single accesses ...
(Entertain yourself with the 1600x1200 true color screen, and a 100 MHz CPU)
to 4) WHY ? You have a wonderfull big FPGA on board already. Why not use it ?
to 5) Big, expensive FPGA for CPU/MEMCtrl/VideoCtrl), the second for I/O is good. You actually run out of I/O pins very fast on those designs.
6.) Agree here, but put in on board already. People who design enclosures will love you ;-)
7.) Yes, however mixing Verilog/VHDL is not such a problem anymore.
Just my 0.000005 Cents ;-)
BTW, you just designed the Replay Board again, from http://www.fpgaarcade.com