Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: restore2003 on October 26, 2003, 07:46:35 PM
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Since users are strongly divided between Amiga and MorphOS, here is a new twist.
This is the AMIGA users chance to tell their opinion.
:-D
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I deleted the stupid comments. Replies to which would also have been deleted.
@ everyone
Only reply if you've got something useful to say. Mindless advocacy/bitching will be deleted.
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I hope os 4 helps to get some recognition for the amiga and gets people who have left interested in the platform again. :-)
Not sure if it will save the platform but ill keep my fingers crossed.
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Will OS4 save our beloved platform? Come on, dont be shy! :-)
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Get rid of Amiga Inc and hopefully there might be a future, keeping cancer companies alive is doing more harm than good.
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I certainly would like to use OS4. I'd only end up using it for image editing (ImageFX/Photogenics, all of the *Paints) so not letting chipbanging programs work doesn't hurt me. If all of the old 3.X programs get ported to OS4 it will certainly have a viable and unique software base, the only short comings really being the dated word processors and web browsers. No Flash/Java doesn't hurt me too much, as long as I can see sites that use javascript, there is only one site I go to regularly that uses Flash (I don't really play online games). I think that if presented right, OS4 could be a nice success, making Amiga at least a reasonable player in the computer market, not a huge company, but a group with good software and a decent userbase.
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Hi,
I may be a bit optomistic but, This OS is the best I've used, More configurable and easy to use. With more mainsream hardware compatability programers may follow.
It's possable this OS could "take off". I see nothing but good in the effort.
Chris
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It certainly looks like OS4 will be an awesome OS, from the looks and rumours from those who have tested it.
But i am unsure if it will save the Amiga, i really think that will depend on the costs of AmigaONE. I really hope that micro/lite system will be cheaper, then maybe even i can afford a new system :-D
We really need some decent browsers also... :-)
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yes
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Here is the way I see it:
Userbases are hard to come by. The only real ones left besides the big 3 (windows, *nix and Mac) are BeOS, Amiga, RiscOS and Atari (with *substantial* amounts of users, albeit small). Atari is pretty much a null point, seeing as how new hardware is just not in the cards for them.
It took MorphOS and the chance of someone else making money from the Amiga user base to finally spur development of OS4. In the interim, this is a good thing for all of us, as competition always results in the consumer winning. In the long term however, it will, as predicted, drive a wedge between the userbase until either:
A) there is a clear winner, or
B) one of the companies either gives up or dies.
Now, perhaps others won't see it the same way as I do, but OS4 is obviously the natural progression for the userbase. This isn't MorphOS bashing, its just realistic. Developers will start coding for MorphOS' Q-box, which is essentially no longer Amiga (granted, ExecSG isn't the same as the old core, but it does retain the original design structure if I'm not mistaken, i.e. the scheduler and so forth).
I think Amiga does have a chance at survival if they can retain their current userbase and target the right commercial markets. I think as soon as we see a good web browser and java support, we'll see a slight resurgence, especially in Europe. After that, its up to developers to give us the tools that:
1) for the home users, allows us to be able to use it to fulfill most of our computing needs, and
2) give the commercial users a compelling product, an innovative product, at a price that that can sell it to businesses *and* support development.
Obvous, if you think about it.
8-)
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The future of Amiga, whatever the flavor, depends on developers (Why can't I shake the image of a certain MicroSoftServe speaker from my mind?) It strikes me that there are four realisticsources from which to mine these:
1.) Former Amiga developers. Not the best chance in the world, as most of them left this platform to MAKE MONEY! Still, loyalty to this machine is not logical, and there are a few developers out there who left just because the machine itself wasn't powerful enough to make new software plausable. Knock on a few doors here, and you may find one or two who will return.
2.) Mac developers/Linux PPC developers. Converting programs which arfe already running on the same CPU archetecture isn't that hard, and these two markets are already fringe markets. It may well be worth a thousand new customers to port some of these programs
3.) Companies in competition with Microsoft. You know, Office suite creators, browser writers (Does anybody else remember the aborted Opera port for the Amiga? Didn't they say they were still interested if they could be persuaded that the platform was still alive? Wouldn't an upgraded archetecture and OS just about do that?) These guys are forever looking for new markets in order to survive against the Big One, and they need new niche markets. I believe we qualify.
All of these have been discussed before, and some do seem more likely than others. However, the strongest source of software has been from the beginning:
4.) The fanatic and talented user. These were the Bitmap Bros., Vallhalla, and others. Some wrote games, some wrote hacks, some wrote some of the best darned shareware programs anywhere, mostly because they needed something that wasn't available (Is that the story of why OS4 boots on a Radeon 7000 now?). True, many of them have left, but there are new ones coming to replace them. The Amiga demo scene still exists. There are still Moovid and Frogger and Hollywood and TurboPrint and so many others that I can't begin to list them.
Eventually, we'll have to attract the attention of the big software houses, but making the machine usable is going to attract a lot of expatriots. And the more units we sell, the easier it is to attract said software giants.
It's the upward spiral, doncha' know. :-)
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I agree with you markey
To get developers you need users, for users you need software, for software you need developers. Its a catch 22 unless there is something so compelling it wqill attract one or the other in droves.
The Fact of the matter is that AmigaOne and/or OS4 has nothing that has this kind of compulsion.
So how do you get that user/developer base when it does not exist? You create a mechanism that will allow developers to write software that can be run on things as low on the scale as mobile phones all the way up to server systems regardless of hardware or operating system thereby creating an artificial yet massive potential market platform of consumers where the developer can sell his product.A product that does not need to be ported recompiled or otherwise tampered with once it is released (except for inevitable bug fixes) And then you integrate it into the OS so these software applications run natively.
For the Amiga, that mechanism is AmigaDE.This will bring the developers to the platform, provide more software for the AmigaOne, and then users will migrate as thier software will be fully compatible with the AmigaOne system, and thier applications will run better as they will not be running over another OS, but natively.
Amiga DE is the vehicle by which users will migrate to the Amiga platform thereby providing the funds for future development of OS5 which in the end giver the user full freedom. Freedom for which hardware they use, be it x86 PPC, hand held devices and wotnot, and freedom of applications as they will no longer be tied to a hardware platform, or even a particular OS to use the software they desire, unlike the situation today.
That is why I think the Amiga future is bright, but it relies upon all three, the hardware, the OS and Amiga DE coming together and being utilized at its potential.
It is my opinion that this has the potential to bring a revolution to the computer world that will forever change the way we think about computers on such a scale to dwarf the revolution that the origonal classic amiga brought about by bringing such a powerful multimedia computer into the home of the "average Joe" with the Amiga 1000 and 500.
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IonDeluxe wrote:
[...] The Fact of the matter is that AmigaOne and/or OS4 has nothing that has this kind of compulsion.
So how do you get that user/developer base when it does not exist? You create a mechanism that will allow developers to write software that can be run on things as low on the scale as mobile phones all the way up to server systems regardless of hardware or operating system thereby creating an artificial yet massive potential market platform of consumers where the developer can sell his product.A product that does not need to be ported recompiled or otherwise tampered with once it is released (except for inevitable bug fixes) And then you integrate it into the OS so these software applications run natively. [...] It is my opinion that this (= AmigaDE) has the potential to bring a revolution to the computer world that will forever change the way we think about computers on such a scale to dwarf the revolution that the origonal classic amiga brought about by bringing such a powerful multimedia computer into the home of the "average Joe" with the Amiga 1000 and 500.
Answer this fundamental question: Why would you want to develop on a cross-platform environment (= CPE) to draw people specifically to your own platform? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having AmigaOS 4 in the first place? Having done that, answer these simple questions: Why would you want to develop programs for a novel CPE which so far has turned up nothing but games? Even if AmigaDE was remarketed as a 'serious' environment, what advantage does it have over Java, Perl or Python with their vast support? Do we have information regarding the robustness of AmigaDE in handling large and complex programs?
AmigaDE is not the answer to the problem of a tiny user base. You're better off with a SDK for all popular programming languages, excellent documentation, and decent technical support. Plus a port of major open source programs to have people actually using their computer besides marvelling at its startup speed, idly moving windows around, and browsing the Internet.
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give os4 a proper SDK/NDK and it will have a future , what is avail atm aint enough to attract people to develop for it , lets hope amiga doesnt do the same mistake AGAIN!
easy dev tools and powerfull enough to use crosscompiled stuff, thats the trick!
imagine how easy it would be for a big devteam to just compile an os4 exe? , imagine how fast it would be done, they wont loose time and they would have a bigger market now if Aos had a proper Default tool.
ok...i am dreaming...but i guess u all know what i mean :D
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original post by lempkee on 2003/10/27 9:35:16
give os4 a proper SDK/NDK and it will have a future , what is avail atm aint enough to attract people to develop for it , lets hope amiga doesnt do the same mistake AGAIN!
easy dev tools and powerfull enough to use crosscompiled stuff, thats the trick!
imagine how easy it would be for a big devteam to just compile an os4 exe? , imagine how fast it would be done, they wont loose time and they would have a bigger market now if Aos had a proper Default tool.
ok...i am dreaming...but i guess u all know what i mean :D
I agree. My thoughts are OS4 could start things really rolling so long as there is a good developer environment. That is a reliable and good compiler, and *most* importantly good API documentation. The amount of time I waste looking for that cryptic Win32 call, or small print is amazing:destroy:.
An IDE would also be benificial, or at the very least a tool to help create and manage makefiles, compiler settings etc.
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Amiga DE is going to be integral to the AmigaOS, so on amiga machines you wont be running such programs in amiga De on top of another OS. As I understand it, amigga DE has, or will have java support as well as many other languages.
The reason why you would develop for CPE is obvious, you only have to write the software once to have it available across many hardware and operating systems which saves valueable time and resources in porting said software. It means you have a bigger potential customer base to sell that software to, which translates to bigger sales.
AmigaDE and AmigaOS at this time are seperate entities, but the roadmap described many times over has Amiga DE being integrated with the OS which means the OS SDK will eventually cover Amiga DE as well.It is also my understanding that Amiga DE is where all the AG2 technology is being developed and with its integration with OS4 will bring that technology to the OS culminating with OS5 when all hardware dependancies are eliminated.
Anyway, to answer your questions briefly: Larger available customer base without the need to port your applications, it is not restricted to Only java, but can make use of many different styles and languages,and it is capable of running large complext programs depending on what the hardware it is running on is capable of.
Anyway, I have two points for you to consider:
1. Even if DE turns out not to be all that much better than java, it at least has the potential to attract some developers to it that would otherwise have zero intrest in the Amiga platform thereby gaining software support for the Amiga by default.Even if it is only stuff like an IRC client or nifty mps3 player it adds to the platform.
2. If Amiga DE is simply not going to be capable enough for these larger type programs, or burdensome to develop these programs for and so on, then the fundamental design as the base for OS5 is flawed and doomed to failure.WHile it is possible for the guys at AMiga Inc to have made such a blunder, many of them have been at the very least extremely competant and in this development for quite a while. Surely even if they had not noticed this flaw, then the guys at Hyperion working on OS4 surely would have as they are building the other half.
While I agree that an SDK as you have described is essential, and we have been assured that this will be provided at some point, the nicest development platform in the galaxy is not going to get major software houses to develop for a platform that only has a few thousand people as userbase.At best we may get some ports, but even that is difficult to make a profit on as I am sure the Hyperion guys will tell you.
I am no programmer, so I really cant give you the nitty gritty you desire.However, the intrest it has atracted from such companies as Sharp, Nokia, Sendo, and even microsoft and Genesi says there has to be something to this DE thing. I may not like Genesi, but those guys are no-ones fools and it seems to me the long running dispute between Genesi and Amiga Inc would make it less likely that Genesi would want Amiga DEas it would end up helping Amiga Inc if Genesi did get it ported to thier platform.
Maybe you ae right, maybe I am being overly enthusiastic abut it, but on the other hand, maybe I am not.
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This isn't MorphOS bashing, its just realistic. Developers will start coding for MorphOS' Q-box, which is essentially no longer Amiga (granted, ExecSG isn't the same as the old core, but it does retain the original design structure if I'm not mistaken, i.e. the scheduler and so forth).
Then I feel you are mistaken... Since Both AROS and MorphOS have the Original design structure...
Whereas OS4 provides a new library calling mechanism, in an attempt to move the AmigaOS away from Jumptable based libraries, to a DLL style link library system.
This is not a bad thing at all, but something to remember before one gets all sentimental about this.
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I belive in Eyetech, Amiga Inc and Hyperion.
(snipped by mikeymike)
I tried both OS4 and MorphOS so i can have my opinion.
- edit by mikeymike: yeah, but the troll comments aren't necessary -
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It took MorphOS and the chance of someone else making money from the Amiga user base to finally spur development of OS4. In the interim, this is a good thing for all of us, as competition always results in the consumer winning. In the long term however, it will, as predicted, drive a wedge between the userbase until either:
I would totally agree on this, if the userbase was of a bigger size... Much harder for both pegasos and amiga to survive when the small userbase is splitted into even smaller userbases...
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Well as I see it, things are not looking good. In fact I would say it looks grim. I love the Amiga, and I am sure I will for a long time to come. I never left, and I have kept the faith for a long time. Here is what I see.
1. Amiga Inc is sitting on the sidelines and letting others do the work for them, giving little to nothing to aid in the return.
2. If the Amiga One system doesnt get OS4 soon, and then get those systems in the big shops all is lost! We have to see something in the shops like CompUSA, Sears, Fry's Elecrtonics ect...
3. This is a huge one. MorphOS and the Pegasos has a huge head start on the Amiga. Pwople are jumoing in and not looking back. Sure porting to Os4 may or may not be to hard to do, but they need to get the ball rolling now before it get totaly out of hand.
3. Amiga One hardware needs to be updated to a more modern spec. At least get it to the level of the Pegasos! I mean who the heck still wants to buy PC100 RAM????
These are just a few of my thoughts. I still plan to get both systems when OS4 comes at last.
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OS4 will help a lot especially with those security measures implemented--seriously! :-)