Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: mingle on October 24, 2003, 02:18:13 PM
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Hi Chaps,
I've been away from the Amiga for a while (my last box was an 060 A1200), and have only been on Amiga.Org for a couple of months.
I'b be interested in getting a new PPC system (as opposed to a PPC card for my old machine) and have noticed that there are currently two real choices: An AmigaOne/Lite or a Pegasos II.
I have no bias to either of these systems and don't really care if it has an Amiga badge, or not. I want a decent, stable hardware platform that can run an 'Amiga-like' OS, along with Linux and maybe even OS X.
Now, without wishing to start a flame-ware (there seem to be some unbelievably touchy characters around!): Does anyone have (or can anyone post) a side-by-side comparison of each of these two boards?
I'd be interested in hardware spec, expandability and of course compatibility and stability with the various OSes available for each.
Cheers,
mingle.
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If you don't specifically want to run AOS4, then the Pegasos, hands down hardcore. If you do want AOS4, you have no choice anyway, AmigaOne.
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the upside of AmigaOne
It'll run OS4 when OS4 is completed.
the upside of Pegasos
cheaper price, more features, good company backing it up, (now) apperantly more solid chipset, and of course it has its own answer to OS4 it has MorphOS wich is out now!.
I advise you check out MorphOS since your coming back into the community.
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Well you can get a look at the Amiga One scecs for eyetech's site and the Peg II from pegasosppc site. As I see it. The Amiga One needs OS4 ASAP. The Peg with MOS has a huge head start. they are on the 2nd revision of the motherboard now. They have modern DDR ram where the Amiga One still uses olc PC100 ram, the Peg has firewire and can support much faster G4 processors so far while the Amiga one is running at a max of just over 800MHZ.
There has been talk that OS4 MAY get released for the Peg boards. I would say do it. It would give some much needed cash to the Amiga name and get thing flowing again. If you dont care about the Amiga name and are interested in an Amiga like OS on newer up to date hardware like you say, then the Pegasos II just may be worth looking at.
In any case its still to early to tell. None of the systems use the full potential of the boards with the current OS and processors. So they both will come out fast and very nice I would think.
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I'm not that familiar with the Pegasos either... Is there any plans for AmigaOS4 on Pegasos HW?
If no, why not?
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Hi!
Well, whatever certain other people are saying,
the hardware of the two is more or less the same,
so it is more an OS-Choice than a hardware-choice.
If you want the official AmigaOS get the AmigaOne,
if you want MorphOS get the Pegasos (right now you wouldn't be able to get a Pegasos, though - Pegasos 1 is no longer in production, Pegasos 2 not yet available). To be fair I also have to admit that when
you buy an AmigaOne as an enduser NOW you will only get it with Linux and will get Amiga OS 4 for
AmigaOne shipped to you once it is available
for the enduser - should not take that much
longer though :).
It might be asides from a choice of OS also a choice
of company - I personally would put my faith more into Mai than into a small Amiga-market-originated
company like Genesi. Other people might prefer
Genesi for whatever reason.
For myselves, AmigaOne and OS 4 anytimes :)
I am sure I launched off a flamewar now :)
Steffen
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Hi Mingle,
Since the two boards -- in reality -- are very close to one another, I don't think anyone's ever put together the chart you're asking about.
I can only speak for the Pegasos II having never seen an AmigaOne.
Pegasos II advantages (all subjective of course)
- At 499 EU, the price of the Pegasos II G4/1000 is usually about $350 less than an AmigaOne G3. (note the advert rotating at Amiga.org for the AmigaOne at $850+
- The Pegasos G4 runs at 1 Gigahertz
- DDR Ram on the Pegasos II
- Pegasos II is compatible with over a dozen operating systems with more in development
- Unlike the AmigaOne, the Pegasos II currently comes with it's own native Operating system, MorphOS which is currently in it's fourth revision (1.4) and there are an awful lot of people who seem to like it, be able to use it stabily, and find it to be exactly what they need. The AmigaOne currently comes with PPC Linux.
- Development on the Pegasos II (and in particular MorphOS) seems to have gained a real "linux level" community movement with literally dozens of people working on it.
- MorphOS Development teams are very open and will help any way they can.
- The Superbundle. If you don't think about anything else, consider all the free software which is being bundled with the Pegasos machines. Games, applications, utilities and more.
I would really, really suggest -- before making a decision -- that you spend a few hours going over the following sites. Members of this community will strongly recommend one or the other based on their own personal and "political" bias, but I'd recommend ignoring anything but your own gut instinct.
AmigaOne
http://eyetech.co.uk
Pegasos II
http://pegasosppc.com
http://morphos.net
http://linux.pegasosppc.com
http://pegasosppc.com/software_bundle.php
After doing that, Talk to people who have seen BOTH in action. Most lean instantly towards MorphOS and the Pegasos. The Pegasos is even winning over converts as we make our way around the country doing a series of technology demonstrations.
In all, if I can help answer any further questions, please let me know and I'll help any way I can.
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Don't forget the AmigaONE Lite (now renamed to MicroA1) is due early next year, and it is a really nice looking Mini-ITX board.
Personally, I'm going the OS4 route, since it looks like a nicer platform to me. Theres really not much to choose between the A1 and Pegasos, though.
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@Wayne
I couldnt have said it better myself (and looking back at my post I didnt! ;-) ) Do look at them sites. I was a die hard OS4 fan before I did just that. I put in an order for a Pegasos II G4 1000 just the other day after spending about a month reading what everyone has been talking about. I have a grat Amiga with PPC so I can still get OS4 so I think that had some to do with the choice as well.
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@Wayne
I couldnt have said it better myself (and looking back at my post I didnt! ;-) ) Do look at them sites. I was a die hard OS4 fan before I did just that. I put in an order for a Pegasos II G4 1000 just the other day after spending about a month reading what everyone has been talking about. I have a great Amiga with PPC so I can still get OS4 so I think that had some to do with the choice as well.
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mingle,
I'b be interested in getting a new PPC system (as opposed to a PPC card for my old machine) and have noticed that there are currently two real choices: An AmigaOne/Lite or a Pegasos II.
Wayne suggested you go to a number fo sites to make comparisons. I suggest you also spend some time over at amigaworld.net. It's like being in entirely different parallel universes when you read at amiga.org and amigaworld.net.
I try to read at both and distill some sense of reality out of the whole Amiga situation.
That being said, I admit to owning an AmigaOne already. Never had a DMA problem. Never had any trouble with it at all, really, except munging up Debian through my own lack of Linux knowledge.
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You may also want to check out what people have to say over at www.amigaworld.net
Although both A.org, and Amigaworld try to be as unbiased and friendly as possible, you'll find more genesi/pegasos ppl over here, and more AmigaInc ppl over there. So if you just want to get an all around view and see other peoples opinions on what/why they are buying, you could definately find some info there you may not see here depending on who happens to notice this thread.
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@Paul,
The distinction between these two sites (which really doesn't exist) is exactly why I recommended to Mingle that he completely ignore the inherent politics and personal opinions. People who pick one or the other should not be mired down in all the silly pedantic wars between "Red" and "Blue", even after they purchase their chosen system.
What I presented was what I see as facts, and looking at the respective sites for the product will help him far more than zealotous zombies moaning "buy our product... buy our product..." :-)
Humorously, I did just get a George Romero-style image of different color zombies in a graveyard attacking the innocent curious newcomer from all different directions. Now THAT is a poignant analogy in more ways than one...
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mingle: In the end.. what matters is what works and what's available.. If you are not in hurry, check out what software will be made to these systems and see if those are enough for your needs.
There are a lot of old programs, but running them under special emulators is pain.. I'd rather look for those who work on native environment and new ones.
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@ mingle
Do not be fooled by these people. These new "Amigas" are not proper Amigas. The only proper Amiga is the military grade A2000HD professional computer.
:-P :-D
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I am only joking. I reckon Doomie rox!
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- DDR Ram on the Pegasos II
Personally, I don't see this as much of a selling point for me since it will do next to nothing for the performance of the system over standard PC133 SDRAM since the G4 only has a 133MHz bus.
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@Casper,
Personally, I don't see this is much of a selling point for me since it will do next to nothing for the performance of the system over standard PC133 SDRAM since the G4 only has a 133MHz bus.
Perhaps, perhaps not, but DDR Ram is more readily available and cheaper nowadays and is not as insanely picky as on the AmigaOne.
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@wayne
[quotePerhaps, perhaps not, but DDR Ram is more readily available and cheaper nowadays and is not as insanely picky as on the AmigaOne.[/quote]
Well, that's due to the Articia and not SDRAM as such, isn't it?
Regarding the price, around here SDRAM is roughly the same price as the slower DDR speeds (such as PC2100) but those are also hard to come by now. Most shops only have the faster speeds in stock which are more expensive than SDRAM.
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@Casper
And the RAM is directly/ecluvily connected to the CPU ?
Thought it was connected to the northbridge.
One of the strongest points withe the Marvel-NB is it's superb internal
bandwith, which should result in fast (and even working :-P ) DMA.
PCI-bus with IDE, AGP (o.k. only 1x, but thats still a whole lotta bandwith),
and the Gigabit-Ethernet will all ask for data (when used), and in a SR-RAM
based mobo this bandwith will be missing on the CPU-side.
With DDR-RAM the components would need to ask the maximum of
bandwith zthe SD-RAM could deliever BEFORE !!! they would "steal"
a single Mem-cycle from the CPU. Just like it was with them early Amigas
(those with 68000)......
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@mingle:
As far as I know, I'm the only person on this forum who owns both an A1 and a Pegasos, so I think I can speak without much bias.
I have no bias to either of these systems and don't really care if it has an Amiga badge, or not. I want a decent, stable hardware platform that can run an 'Amiga-like' OS, along with Linux and maybe even OS X.
I'm much like you. At the moment the pegasos is the only one of the two that runs an amiga-like OS. I have to say Morphos is *very* amiga like. The A1 runs linux and PPCUAE, both of which I found extremely frustrating to use, although I was just getting the hang of linux when the pegasos arrived.
I wanted an amiga-like OS too.
The pegasos is now my main machine, the A1 mobo is in a cardboard box awaiting OS4.
If you want something now and can source a pegasos, I'd say go for it.
On the other hand, if you can't find one, or are prepared to wait awhile, I'd say wait till either Peg 2 or OS4 is available. try a comparison then, if you can.
I'm really looking forward to the release of OS4 and it may be that the A1 will then replace the pegasos as my main machine but, at the moment, there really is no contest.
Hope this helps a little. :-)
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double post - sorry.
Is it just me or is the site behaving weirdly today?
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the upside of AmigaOne
It'll run OS4 when OS4 is completed.
the upside of Pegasos
Bigger downside on both machines:
Neither of these system has on their native OS:
- a browser which is complient with all todays standards;
- an office suit that is comparable to MSOffice;
At least until both this issues are solved, both are equally at the same stage, for me that is.. and as for having Linux, I can have linux installed on my PC if I want too.
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The Pegasos 1 and the A1 is quite similar when it comes to hardware. However, the Pegasos is smaller, it has better features (Firewire and an optical S/PDIF digital audio out connector), and is **a lot cheaper**.
If you look around you might find both the Pegasos 1 (with April2) and A1 motherboards available right now at dealers, for instance I believe that GGS Data (http://www.ggsdata.se) in Sweden has managed to get a few of them both in stock.
If you choose the A1, you will have to run Linux until OS4 is ready enough to be released, which probably won't take more than a few months now. If you chose the Pegasos, you can start using it as an "Amiga" right now (with MorphOS), as well as a lot of other OS's.
In a (few) week(s) or so, the Pegasos II will be for sale. That one is an improved Pegasos 1, with a new, very powerful NorthBridge, DDR memory, 1 Gigabit Ethernet and 1 100/10 mbps Ethernet connectors, etc. When the Pegasos II goes for sale, there will be some second hand Pegasos 1 for sale at about €99 (?).
In a more distant future (speaking of the first quarter of 2004), a mini ITX version of the A1 is expected, as well as the Pegasos III, which will be a G5 computer!
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" - DDR Ram on the Pegasos II "
This should be read as having Ram at higher speeds, but not taking full advantage of DDR system as G4 can't handle the double transfer to and from RAM.
200Mhz DDR will be 200Mhz and not at double speed as expected.
Edit: Sorry for this meaningfulness information as it was already discussed before and already pointed out
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The Pegasos 1 and the A1 is quite similar when it comes to hardware. However, the Pegasos is smaller, it has better features (Firewire and an optical S/PDIF digital audio out connector), and is **a lot cheaper**.
Regarding the price of the AmigaOne, eyetech's site seems to be in a timewarp or something, since at this page (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/) the latest news is 1st November 2002!!!
So what is the current guesstimate prices for each system. By system I mean with HD, CD, 512Mb RAM ... A fully functional system box.
(And who do you get a ready built system from, since gimps like me with mitten hands arn't to good at building it ourselfs !:-) )
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In a (few) week(s) or so, the Pegasos II will be for sale
The Pegasos II is for sale now;
http://www.pegasosppc.com/store.php (http://www.pegasosppc.com/store.php)
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I'm not going to touch this with a 2billion foot barge pole... but I will say, if you have a PC then have a look at AROS...
AROS Website (http://www.aros.org)
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@Cryten
I have no idea, you will have to ask Hyperion as it is their OS.
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Both the AmigaONE and the Pegasos is technically inferior compared to todays modern X86 and Mac products.
Putting that aside, the Pegasos and the AmigaONE are rather similar products. With the Pegasos II and the future AmigaONE Lite we will have some more radical difference though, which were mostly covered by others.
At the moment, the Pegasos/MorphOS has the upper hand in almost all major points and areas. How this will be change in the future is something to be seen though.
Either system you choose you will not make a wrong decision. There will be hundreds or even thousands who made the same decision (no matter which it was of the two).
At the moment we can safely say that there will be OS4 one day, and that MorphOS development won't stop neither. Go, learn the specifications, speak to actual users, come to a conclusion and make a decision.
And I wish happy hours for you and your new machine, whichever it will be :-)
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This could have been a short and sweet thread, with one link to the Teron PX specs (http://mai.com/products/BRV852R2.0.pdf) and Eyetech's available configurations (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/oct252002a.php), plus one link to Genesi's Peg II blurb (https://www.pegasosppc.com/tech_specs.php).
But oh, no. :)
Anyway, here's a table comparing the boards. I'm sure people will post corrections if necessary.
(http://amiga.org/gallery/images/64/1_1385.gif)
EDIT: For bandwidth conservation, I removed the inline pic and linked to it instead. I've submitted it to the amiga.org gallery too, so when/if it's accepted it might be a good idea to link to it there instead.
EDIT 2: Now that the pic will stress the amiga.org server instead of "my own", I put the inline pic back. :)
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Thanks Seehund. That puts it into perspective nicely.
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Im an a1 owner but at the moment and since building and instaling debian i have not used it ,this is because i am waiting for os4.Which is why i would say only get an amigaone now if you dont mind using linux and waiting for os4 to be completed. As for the pegasos 2 it is now available and you have a 1 gig machine with a very nice amiga like operating software that has a lot of aplications ported to it already and is being updated all the time ,with the pegasos you can use it now. It is cheaper than the a1 and it is a very small form factor board so you can use small cases than the amigaone.
I hope to buy a pegasos 2 myself when i have the cash for it.. :-)
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OT
@Wayne
RE: Your sig. :-D
So does that mean we are all betatesters. :-o
It could apply to all languages equally. I think English is changing fastest though IMHO.
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If you want os4, then aone is the only choice... If you can settle with linux and morphos, then pegasos might be a better choice, since it is cheaper at the moment.
Personally i want AmigaOne because of os4... i have hopes that the AoneLite will be cheaper.
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I'm not going to touch this with a 2billion foot barge pole... but I will say, if you have a PC then have a look at AROS...
well... aros is not a choice atm, as it has no tcp/ip stack and virtually no software :\
It seems very responisve and such, but cannot be used much when it lacks software to run on it
But in the future maybe :-)
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@Gadget
Glad you liked it. I had this quote come to mind the other day when someone was arguing with me over MorphOS being a "beta". Someone pointed out that all operating systems are "betas" because they're always under development.
Then I suddenly realized that on these forums, the English language was very much in Beta because there were apparently so many people having trouble with it. :-)
Is there somewhere that I could apply to be 100% credited with a quote? A "quotemark" per se? :-)
Wayne
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pegasos only has agp 1x, while aone has 2x? or is that a typing error?
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@Wayne
And thy art now just realizing this? Why, thee must jest. Nay, the Kings English is immutable and eternal.
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Also, morphos being "Amiga Like" is up to your personal point of view.I have seen some comments that have disagreed with this analogy.
Morphos is also not what I would consider a "commercial ready" OS, it is more in a beta stage, yet that is better to some points of view than no OS available at all to this point in time.
Contrary to what has been stated before, this site seems more wiegted towards the pegasos than the AmigaOne, if this is due to pegaos promotors being more vocal on not is really a non issue, whilst Amigaworld.net seems more wieghted towards AmigaOne and the "official" solution.
You are simply nt going to get away from the inherent polictics either way so the only unbiased option is to visit both sites to get a more balanced perspective.
To sum up my personal opinion is that the hardware is of very similar specifacations so the real considerations are cost, with pegasos being the cheaper, and the OS with pegasos having Morphos available, but not entirely complete, and the AmigaOne the only system at this time that will have OS4 available.
Unless you need a system in the very near future my advice is to simply wait until both options have the operating system available and have matured a bit more. At this stage everything is purely speculation as to which system will be "better" in the long run.
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pegasos only has agp 1x, while aone has 2x? or is that a typing error?
No it is not but to be honest you wont notice the difrence . :-)
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No it is not but to be honest you wont notice the difrence .
not until there is a decent 3d driver i guess....
But i do notice the difference between 2x and 4x on a pc atleast... not very much, but difference is there
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@Tomas,
On ANY PowerPC right now, AmigaOne or Pegasos II, you will never notice any difference between 1x and 2x because the bus itself and the CPU are not fast enough (yet) to saturate the video bus. Bill Buck has explained this repeatedly (and elegantly) on other sites like ANN.lu
(I can never find links on ANN later when I need them).
I am positive that later when the northbridge chips for both motherboards advance and mature, 8x, 24x or whatever is out there will be supported. This is a natural progression.
Again, you can't compare x86 world to the PPC market which is infinitely smaller.
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Tomas wrote:
pegasos only has agp 1x, while aone has 2x? or is that a typing error?
No -not a typing error! There has already been plenty of discussion as to what Gfx Cards to buy! The trouble is that BOTH systems are behind the technology-curve here!
One correction that I could make to that comparison chart that Seehund so kindly provided, is the G4 cpu provided with the A1XEG4 can be clocked at 800 or 933Mhz and retain dealer warrenty.
But, whatever (Peg or A1) system choosen- We should ALL rejoice! The equipment-drought that resulted from Commodore's demise has been alleviated by TWO contenders!
Really, its like back in 1991; when you could choose an A600, or an A500+ . . . . . . . you bought which one you preferred!
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Wayne wrote:
Is there somewhere that I could apply to be 100% credited with a quote? A "quotemark" per se? :-)
Wayne
Well I have submitted it to http://www.quoteworld.org/ (http://www.quoteworld.org/) and credited it to yourself.
Now let's just wait and see if they publish it :-D
[EDIT]
If not you could always do what the guy at the following site has done: http://www.davevance.com/quotes.cfm (http://www.davevance.com/quotes.cfm) :-P
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GadgetMaster wrote:
Wayne wrote:
Is there somewhere that I could apply to be 100% credited with a quote? A "quotemark" per se? :-)
Wayne
Well I have submitted it to http://www.quoteworld.org/ (http://www.quoteworld.org/) and credited to yourself.
Now lets just wait and see if they publish it :-D
Here's a NEW one, spur of the moment:
"The BETAS go on; la-de-la-de-da!" (with compliments to Sonny & Cher!) :-D
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Here's a NEW one, spur of the moment:
"The BETAS go on; la-de-la-de-da!" (with compliments to Sonny & Cher!) :-D
:lol:
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"Contrary to what has been stated before, this site seems more wiegted towards the pegasos than the AmigaOne, if this is due to pegaos promotors being more vocal on not is really a non issue, whilst Amigaworld.net seems more wieghted towards AmigaOne and the "official" solution."
Yet both sites seem to lack those "hundreds and hundreds" of A1 owners defending their purchase. Go figure.
A bit sad really if the people from market of 600 outmatch the market of 2-3 times more people.. the Amiga spirit seems to be gone then.
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If you want to see a bit more about MorphOS in
specific you can read a review/overview here too:
http://browse.to/emerald/review/review.html
Pegasos II is good choice for anyone that
enjoys/enjoyed using the classic Amiga
systems and now wants something more modern
that is still being developed/supported. :)
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@Hooligan_DCS:
I bought both.
Why should I have to defend my purchase of either?
I don't see what that has to do with the 'amiga spirit'.
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Wayne & all.. By the time there is any program (Game) that really
for Amiga/Pegasos that needs AGP*8, new computers have PCI-Express
connectivity instead of AGP and PCI..
Only commercial games/ports I know that are supposed to be released
this year are EPIC:s Northland and Divine Divinity (both for MorphOS).
And neither of those are much stress to current level of GFX chips.
Beoynd those I don't know any recent work on games. (*)
Early next year Intel will release their first motherboard chipsets
with PCI-Express and knowing their ability to puch innovations I'm
quite sure others follow soon. So by the time next versions of these
computers are made (next summer?) this entire AGP is old and
diminishing market.
I'm not saying AGP (or PCI) will be gone soon, but quite frankly
neither can I see those BIG game makers coming to Amiga markets RSN.
And making new game of todays standards requires 100:s people and a
lot of money. So even if someone wins lottery this weekend, it'll
still take at least a year or two to make high quality game.
Joanna
(*) Plus Titan's Rage Hard, but it's sometime 2004... I know
Hyperion had some game-ports on hold waiting for AmigaOne+OS4 ..
unfortunately those games are becoming quite old and are not much on
gfx anymore. Besides.. I'm not sure how soon they ran release their
coders on OS4 development for game projects cause OS4.1 and 4.2 needs
coders too.
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@ mingle
I'b be interested in getting a new PPC system (as opposed to a PPC card for my old machine) and have noticed that there are currently two real choices: An AmigaOne/Lite or a Pegasos II.
Hhm, considering most people seem to be talking about the AmigaOne-XE instead of answering your question I should give it a try.
First you need to ask yourself do you want AmigaOS4, MorphOS or do you just want to use Linux.
If you have decided and you chose AmigaOS4 then the AmigaOne-Lite will be the right option for you. If you decide to run MorphOS wait for the Pegasos2. And if you want to run Linux wait for both the Pegasos2 and AmigaOne-Lite to be demonstrated in combination with Linux. The AmigaOne-Lite should already be demonstrated running Linux this Saturday in Austria.
My advise is to test before you buy or at least wait for a reliable review and maybe comparison tests if both platforms become available simultaneously. Note that in the past endless claims have been made about one platform performing much better than the other, but in the end real life tests showed this wasn't actually true.
The MicroA1 (AmigaOne Lite) pricing has not yet to be announced but should be significantly cheaper than the AmigaOne-XE. IMO the AmigaOne-XE is an excellent platform for developers and power users with better expansion options than the other mentioned solutions.
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Wayne,
The distinction between these two sites (which really doesn't exist) is exactly why I recommended to Mingle that he completely ignore the inherent politics and personal opinions.
Of course, to get that recommendation, he will already have read through most of the replies he's received here. The "which really doesn't exist" might be getting a little closer to reality in the last week or so. But there's still a strong "hint" at whether red or blue is better at both sites.
Not to mention that some of the "official" A1 news is hosted at amigaworld.net.
Paul
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@MikeB
How will the MicroA1 be "significantly cheaper" than the A1? It uses all the same parts of the A1, and then add even more on top of it. The smaller form factor will only shave $10 off of the manufacturing price, and the loss of slots about $12 more. The video chip + RAM alone will add more than you lost from the factor change, then add in the added functions and you find that the MicroA1 will cost more to produce than the A1. So unless Eyetech plans on selling them at a lower profit point, it is most likely to cost the same if not more than the A1.
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Hooligan,
Yet both sites seem to lack those "hundreds and hundreds" of A1 owners defending their purchase. Go figure.
A bit sad really if the people from market of 600 outmatch the market of 2-3 times more people.. the Amiga spirit seems to be gone then.
And to think that Wayne told me further up the list that the alleged differences between the sites were really non-existent.
Glad to do my little part to make A1 owners more openly represented at amiga.org
BTW, what is the "Amiga spirit?" Incessant arguing?
Paul
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@ downix
There are development costs involved when producing new hardware. Commercial companies need to earn back these costs and usually try to make a profit as well.
As the AmigaOne-XE was only expected to sell a few thousand this drives the price up. Basicly the more you sell, the more development costs can be spread amongst more of your customers.
The AmigaOne-Lite is expected to sell in larger quantities. Why don't we see games like Doom3 developed exclusively for the Amiga today? The potential sales are no way near enough to cover the costs, etc.
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by Tomas on 2003/10/24 13:02:02
well... aros is not a choice atm, as it has no tcp/ip stack and virtually no software :\
It seems very responisve and such, but cannot be used much when it lacks software to run on it
Yet, unlike OS4, it' s available *now*, not in 2004. There is a fair chance AROS will have TCP/IP before OS4 is released to the public. I rather have a OS now that's not complete, then run VaporOS.
Dammy
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by MikeB on 2003/10/24 15:02:56
There are development costs involved when producing new hardware. Commercial companies need to earn back these costs and usually try to make a profit as well.
So what is the A1-Lite going to run cost wise?
Dammy
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Yet both sites seem to lack those "hundreds and hundreds" of A1 owners defending their purchase. Go figure.
I dont need to defend my purchase i made my choice and bought what i wanted i dont see why either a1 or pegasos owners should defend there purchase you buy what you want or what best suits what you want. :-)
And i can still get a pegasos 2 at a later date.
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amigamad wrote:
I dont need to defend my purchase i made my choice and bought what i wanted i dont see why either a1 or pegasos owners should defend there purchase you buy what you want or what best suits what you want. :-)
Bloody right.
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Contrary to what has been stated before, this site seems more wiegted towards the pegasos than the AmigaOne, if this is due to pegaos promotors being more vocal on not is really a non issue, whilst Amigaworld.net seems more wieghted towards AmigaOne and the "official" solution.
The AmigaOne is an "official" AmigaOne, and the
Pegasos is an "official" Pegasos... the A1 is also
'NOT' an "official" Pegasos...basically they are
equally official..:P
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vortexau ;) wrote:
One correction that I could make to that comparison chart that Seehund so kindly provided, is the G4 cpu provided with the A1XEG4 can be clocked at 800 or 933Mhz and retain dealer warrenty.
No, according to Alan Redhouse you void your warranty if you run the CPU at its normal Motorola-specified max speed (933MHz).
I would hope that there's a reason behind selling the Teron PX's advertised, specified and underclocked to 800MHz core frequency, and that it's not done just for fun! Now it's sold and guaranteed only as an 800MHz system, so of course that's the figure used in the comparison.
A question to the Teron owners here; are the CPUs underclocked by having the multiplier decreased or by setting the FSB to 100MHz?
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Oh, I forgot to mention one more factor and that's the form factor.
If you want to use a regular ATX case the following is pretty much irrelevant and you could just as well go for a full sized ATX board.
But the Pegasos2 has a MircoATX form factor and can be housed in a Micro-ATX case.
The AmigaOne-Lite is much smaller, but will have less expansion abilities. But the board's mini-itx (http://www.mini-itx.com/faq.asp#Hardware0) form factor is also backward-compatible with both Flex-ATX and Micro-ATX.
Some example Mini-ITX cases you could build yourself:
An Atari 800 case:
(http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/atari800/images/atari800-0014.jpg)
A Commodore 64 case:
(http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/c64/images/c64-0001.jpg)
8-)
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I'd be interested in getting a new PPC system (as opposed to a PPC card for my old machine) and have noticed that there are currently two real choices: An AmigaOne/Lite or a Pegasos II.
Leaping into the frying pan, I'd say wait - wait for the AmigaOne Lite and OS4 to come out then decide.
PegasOS and AmigaOne are pretty much alike hardware wise, the real issues as I see it (future software support) have yet to manifest as OS4 is not yet ready.
MorphOS will run many *AmigaOS 3* applications. At such a point when AmigaOS 4+ applications become available, the situation becomes more uncertain. I have been considering this for months yet only recently have threads appeared discussing this aspect - which devolve into "licensing scheme" flame wars and such, thus avoiding answering the question itself.
It seems unlikely that AmigaOS 4 will be ported to PegasOS (another hot topic) and whether AmigaDE will is also a thorny subject. Thus, perhaps future applications will be split into either AmigaOS 4 native and MorphOS (QBox?) native, unless some agreement or solution is reached to run either on either, which as I said seems rather "nebulous" to say the least.
It may be that MorphOS native apps appear that will not be supported on AOS4 and that AOS4 apps will appear that will not be supported on MorphOS, or there may be solution which allows easy porting either way - who knows? It seems to me that if you want to buy NOW to run linux, MacOnLinux, etc. etc., either board will do. If you want MorphOS future apps go for a PegasOS, if you want to run AmigaOS future apps go for an AmigaOne. AmigaDE being a current hot potato I would say if you want to be assured of running AmigaDE go for an AmigaOne. Hence I say possibly best to wait a few more weeks and compare when the situation regarding furture support becomes clearer.
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If you want to be assured of running AmigaDE.....
go for a Windows-PC :-P
And yes I am 100% (ah well 99% ;-) ) serious about that :-x
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@Seehund
If you want to be assured of running AmigaDE..... go for a Windows-PC
That's another option! :-) I guess you could ALSO run all your "classic Amiga applications NOW" too (WinUAE) :-) :-) :-)
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MikeB wrote:
I'b be interested in getting a new PPC system (as opposed to a PPC card for my old machine) and have noticed that there are currently two real choices: An AmigaOne/Lite or a Pegasos II.
Hhm, considering most people seem to be talking about the AmigaOne-XE instead of answering your question I should give it a try.
If you examine his question again, you'll see that he's asking about "real" choices.
Personally I interpreted his "AmigaOne/Lite" as "AmigaOne (current ones) or AmigaOne Lite".
The only "real choice" being sold under the "AmigaOne" trademark today and for any known period of time is the Teron PX.
Whatever board it is that one day will be sold as an "AmigaOne Lite" (sorry, namechange again, "Micro AmigaOne"), it's not even out of prototyping stage yet, and it's full and final specs are just as unknown as its price. Let's bring that board into the discussion when it's at least known what it is, when it'll be released and how much it'll cost.
First you need to ask yourself do you want AmigaOS4, MorphOS or do you just want to use Linux.
Read his question again. He has apparently already decided on this ("hardware platform that can run an 'Amiga-like' OS, along with Linux and maybe even OS X").
So, ignoring the "OS X" bit, it's narrowed down to a Teron or a Pegasos, unfortunately.
And if you want to run Linux wait for both the Pegasos2 and AmigaOne-Lite to be demonstrated in combination with Linux.
If he was just interested in Linux, I'd personally recommend a much cheaper and much faster x86 box, or maybe a second hand cheap PowerBook without the grunt to run OSX...
The MicroA1 (AmigaOne Lite) pricing has not yet to be announced but should be significantly cheaper than the AmigaOne-XE.
If this would be the case, Eyetech's pricing philosopy would look a bit strange. The board to be sold as a "MicroA1" is mini-ITX (more elaborate and expensive design and fabrication process), and it will apparently also have better specs than the Teron PX.
I suppose a reduction in price right from the start could come from Eyetech decreasing their margins. I don't know how much Eyetech pays for the Teron PX's when they buy them in volume, but 10-20% less than the "normal" Teron PX G4 end-user price of $500 could be a conservative guesstimate. That would give Eyetech a current margin of $350-400 per board!
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BouncingAyatollah wrote:
@Seehund
Huh? I believe you were replying to the Evil Klingon Klown! :)
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@Seehund
nah he just uncovered our secret:
You, me, meerschaum, Neko,Downix, AmiGR ......
are in reality one person with a slight case of schizophrenie :-o
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@Bills - er - Redrum -er - T_Bo - er - Seehund!
Huh? I believe you were replying to the Evil Klingon Klown! :)
Oops! Yeah, sorry, I was indeed - was just on my way to do something else and had a sneaky post LOL!
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> Personally, I don't see this as much of a selling point for me since it will do next to nothing for the performance of the system over standard PC133 SDRAM since the G4 only has a 133MHz bus.
Don't confuse a PPC mainboard with a classic Amiga: Unlike the CPU in a classic Amiga, a G3/G4 is not connected to main memory. It is connected to the Northbridge via a bus called "Front Side Bus" (FSB). Other components with direct memory access capability (IDE, PCI, AGP) also go through the northbridge. The northbridge connects to memory via the memory bus. That bus and the FSB are unrelated. Different bandwidth, different protocol, even different clock is possible. A fast memory bus - faster than the FSB - obviously has performance benefits for the whole system because the CPU is only one of several Northbridge "customers".
If someone says "the G4 does not support DDR", it actually means that its bandwidth does not reach the bandwidth of DDR-RAM. It's not a statement about compatibility. And it's not an issue of the G4 not understanding the protocol of DDR RAM (it doesn't have to because it is not connected to it).
To the claim that a G4 is suitably served with 133 MHZ SD-RAM: The G4/Altivec bus(-protocol) on the FSB is faster than single data rate SD-RAM133. Even if the CPU was the only component you want to consider, SD-RAM133 after the northbridge already holds up a G4. I recall that for the CPU alone, the upgrade to DDR memory and reduced latency accounts for a 10% improvement. Add to that the benefits of DMA at DDR-RAM-speed and think of a scenario like games, compiling and AV (all saturating the bus with demands from the CPU, the grapics card and the IDE).
Finally, there is the price tag that makes DDR RAM a selling point: the first generation boards with an Arctica northbridge (Pegasos 1, Amiga One) usually require the use of registered SD-RAM. That is not only slower than unregistered SD-RAM, it's also more expensive and difficult to find.
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@ Seehund
If you examine his question again, you'll see that he's asking about "real" choices
So, have you seen the Pegasos2 run anything yet? Like for instance Debian or MorphOS. How exactly is this board at this stage a more real solution than the AmigaOne-Lite which will be demonstrated tomorrow running Linux and hopefully a beta or alpha of AmigaOS4?
Read his question again. He has apparently already decided on this ("hardware platform that can run an 'Amiga-like' OS, along with Linux and maybe even OS X").
There are significant differences between AmigaOS4 and MorphOS. Thus I think this person should check out the feature lists, screenshots and other information for both platforms and maybe even give both operating systems a testdrive at upcoming shows/fairs.
Running classic AmigaOS inside Linux is always a possibility as is currenty provided with the AmigaOne earlybirds. We will have to wait and see how well Linux will run on the Pegasos2.
Wow 400 postings, I did it! ;-) See ya.
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@Hooligan_DCS:
I bought both.
Why should I have to defend my purchase of either?
I don't see what that has to do with the 'amiga spirit'.
What has Amigaspirit got to do with it? Well, maybe you were'nt there but I was fighting for Amiga against Atari and PC, furiously. Amiga was my choice, someone challenged it, I defended it.
Doesn't seem to happen anymore.. hence = Amiga spirit is dead.
Today is just the same, except today, Pegasos/MorphOS is the _direct_ competitor
(this goes to all who wrote an answer to my comment)
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Hooligan: THE Amiga that was worth fighting for has been dead for
years. This curent name-owner ain't nowere near.
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@MikeB
By your statement, it sounds as if Eyetech is developing the MicroA1 for free, due to reduced development costs. I highly doubt this is the case. In actuality, the dev costs for a Mini-ITX motherboard are greater than that of an ATX, due to the close proximity of the parts. No spare room to "cheat your way" past the RF signals that do occur.
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MikeB wrote:
@ Seehund
If you examine his question again, you'll see that he's asking about "real" choices
So, have you seen the Pegasos2 run anything yet? Like for instance Debian or MorphOS.
Good point, and I agree with those that have said it's basically Yet Another Paper Launch until people hear a thump in their mailboxes.
How exactly is this board at this stage a more real solution than the AmigaOne-Lite
Because, in contrast to the MicroA1 board, it's for sale, it's specs are known and final, and it's for sale at a known final price. BTW, am I imagining things when I recall seeing someone from Genesi saying it's in production?
If any of this should change for the worse, affecting people who already have ordered it, then I'll join you in a unison BOO GENESI!
which will be demonstrated tomorrow running Linux
If I understood Alan R's and Ole-Egil's constant reminders ;) correctly, the board that one of these days will be sold as a MicroA1 is still in prototyping, with yet unknown final specs, as well as undisclosed designers (let me guess... Hi Bill! ;)) and manufacturers. In that case, this prototype is what will be demonstrated in Austria.
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@mingle
Judge by the companies.
On one hand you have Genesi what have released everything they say they would and have done good for this community without stealing from the users
On the other hand you have Amiga Inc who have done nothing but lie, cheat, break the law, in court all the time and have even gone to the extremes of stealing from Amiga users with illegal schemes and such.
4 choices,
Support the good guys
Support crooks
Support Both
Buy neither.
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@Paul_Gadd
YOU FORGOT THE PANCAKES!
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Pancakes are good! Nothing bad with pancakes! :-)
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I think the best reason for going with either OS 4.0 or MorphOS would be how well it runs OS 3.x software. From what I've gathered, MorphOS does it quite well. It will be a tough act for OS 4.0 to follow, but we'll see how well it preforms when its finished.
My advice to a buyer would be to get whats available now.. but having said that, I would prefer to go with the official direction. So I've purchased an AmigaOneXEG3, which I should recieve by the end of next week. :)
But thats my honest opinion.
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Another small aspect:
AmigaOS4 will only support M68K and native programs, not even their
own WarpUP.
MorphOS does already run m68k, PowerUP, WarpUP and native
software. The Pegasos/MorphOS is already much better than my
A1200 BPPC ever was.
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@-D-
You know exactly what was meant, stop confusing the issue.
The AmigaOne is the Official Amiga solution while the Pegasos is a competator to that solution.
There, happy now?
As for the AMigaOne being a modified teron...who cares? what real difference does it make?
Many companies use boards and other components designed and manufactured by others, does this then make that particular system less thier product?
No.
This is a common practise throughout many industries.
Does the fact that the pegasos uses radeon graphics cards, IMB or motorola cpus, hyundai ram, western digitaL hard drives, LG monitors, genius mice, and creative soundcards(for example) make it any less a pegasos system?
What makes a "brand" is little more than the company that sticks the label on the machine.
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(Havn't read through the entire thread, so don't flame me if this has been brought up before)
@mingle
What you have to remember is that many people bought these A1 boards, payed for a $50 discount voucher, and havn't recieved AOS4.0, or the T-Shirts that they were promised.
AOS4.0 has been promised for years, and it hasn't come.
Whereas MorphOS already has many users. MorphOS is already available.
The Pegasos II is soon available, and in larger numbers!
I have a Pegasos, and am planning on getting another(peg II this time). :-)
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-tshirts so what? I dont know any reasons to compare pegasos to amiga.
I like to compare Pegasos to PC it's same way amiga compaptiable, I can get to my PC amiga feeling wiht skins and UEA.
Pegasos has nothing to do with real amiga.
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Pegasos has nothing to do with real amiga.
Pegasos has everything to do with the real Amiga. It is the new Amiga!
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not really helpful twoards the aim of the topic, but still very related. We talk about people like us, wanting either v. compatible amiga stuff, or basically new amiga stuff, but does any1 else actually use them apart from us who just remember the pro's of the amiga, and now carrying it on? cause it seems like some of the stuff out there is something that some1's making in their backyard and no1 really looks on the internet and buys them, just if you like amiga you buy them...
moderator's feel free to move this post :-D otherwise a couple of people answer very quickly as to not hijack the thread :-)
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The Pegasos II is a great product. We think as more people get their hands on them this discussion will become one of branding and nothing more.
Nevertheless, we are working on that too...;-)
R&B