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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Argo on December 28, 2005, 09:51:15 PM
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Well, if you couldn't make it to the IRC chat with the Friedens from Hyperion you can read the transcript below.
Highlights:
No OS 4.0 release til there is hardware available for sale.
They are aware of projects to provide hardware for OS 4.0, from lowend to highend.
Update #4 coming in early January.
Update #4 will include Petunia and bring users up to about what the beta testers have.
OS 4.0 runs on an existing PDA.
[02:36 PM] Rogue: Okay, hello all :)
[02:36 PM] EntilZha: Ok, is this thing on ?
[02:36 PM] DaveyD: yes
[02:36 PM] EntilZha: Hello All!
[02:37 PM] Rogue: *clears throat*
[02:37 PM] DaveyD: hi EntilZha and Rogue
[02:37 PM] Rogue: Hello everybody... first of all, I would like to say a few things that would otherwise be asked at least 100 times :)
[02:37 PM] Rogue: I've got some good news and some not-so-good news... I start with the not-so-good one.
[02:38 PM] Rogue: As you have probably already guessed, there will be no OS 4 release this year. There are reasons for that which I would like to explain
[02:39 PM] Rogue: The main reason is the unavailability of hardware. As you all know, AmigaOne's are not available right now, so we are not in a position to offer an OS 4 with a matching hardware.
[02:39 PM] Rogue: We DO think that once we release AmigaOS4.0, there will be a general interest in the news, in media, etc. We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market, and they will ask where they can buy it.
[02:40 PM] Rogue: If we tell them they cannot buy it right now and need to wait until the hardware is available, then this will take away a lot of momentum that the release will generate.
[02:40 PM] Rogue: Hence we decided to postpone the release until such time as a hardware platform IS available.
[02:40 PM] Rogue: *coughs* so much for the bad news.
[02:40 PM] Rogue: Now the good news. First of all, since we don't have OS 4 out now as planned, there will be...
[02:40 PM] Rogue: Update #4
[02:41 PM] Rogue: Update #4 will come out early january, and will be again a quite comprehensive update. It will include, among other things...
[02:41 PM] Rogue: -> Petunia (the JIT)
[02:41 PM] Rogue: -> Warp3D including the R200 driver
[02:42 PM] Rogue: -> the latest Intuition, which has seen quite some overhaul (especially in ReAction)
[02:42 PM] Rogue: ... and, well, everything else is included too. It's going to be an installable ISO again
[02:42 PM] Rogue: It will be more or less what the beta testers have now
[02:43 PM] Rogue: Secondly, one thing that was recently added to OS 4 is SCSI support.
[02:43 PM] Rogue: Stephane Guillard has written a driver for LSI/Symbios based cards (53c8xx based).
[02:44 PM] Rogue: Finally, you will wonder when new hardware is going to be available.
[02:44 PM] Rogue: I'm afraid I cannot answer that question, BUT we are working with several hardware companies (Troika is one of them but not the only one) that want to provide hardware ofr AmigaOS4.0
[02:45 PM] Rogue: These companies will come forward as soon as they are ready for that. Projects will cover both the low-end and high-end market.
[02:45 PM] Rogue: Alright, that's it from me. I'd say on to the questions.
[02:46 PM] Coder: Ok hold on for the first one.
[02:46 PM] Coder: Will there be any kind of software / drivers updating service (notice or automatic via internet) in the final os4.0..
[02:47 PM] Rogue: As you may have heard, there already is some sort of updater program called AmiUpdate. We don't know yet if this will make it public or not, but it is certainly an option...
[02:48 PM] Rogue: Basically we will consider it but it depends on the infrastructure.
[02:48 PM] Eric_S: Will update #4 include SNAP?
[02:48 PM] Rogue: next please :)
[02:48 PM] Rogue: No, SNAP will not be included
[02:48 PM] Rogue: next
[02:48 PM] Mikey_C-A1: What will the final version contain that's missing for update 4
[02:49 PM] EntilZha: Not much. Basically, it's very near to what would have been the final release.
[02:49 PM] EntilZha: There are some bits and pieces that we will only release in the final version...
[02:50 PM] EntilZha: This gives us the opportunity to test them some more internally...
[02:50 PM] _Steve_: [VidarL]: Given the popularity of "safe" languages, do you have any plans to release a virtual machine based programming language like Java or .Net, with official Reaction bindings?
[02:50 PM] EntilZha: There are currently no plans from our side.
[02:51 PM] Rogue: We are planning things like Python
[02:51 PM] Rogue: as a replacement for AREXX. But nothing yet in terms of Java
[02:51 PM] EntilZha: NEXT
[02:51 PM] L8-X: Codesmith:when are we going to see an updated SDK?
[02:51 PM] Rigo: QUESTION: When can we expect an updated SDK?
[02:52 PM] EntilZha: It wil probably l be release shortly after update #4
[02:52 PM] EntilZha: next
[02:52 PM] Alchemy: Invizix: (Link: http://www.perl.com/doc/manual/html/Porting/README.amiga.html)http://www.perl.com/doc/manual/html/Porting/README.amiga.html
[02:53 PM] L8-X: fusion:Will Y have to you it a rom 4.0 to receive AmigaOS4 or will be us obliged of reflasher the CyberstormPPC chart?
[02:53 PM] Rogue: There will be no OS4 ROM and there will be no reflashing for CyberstormPPC cards.
[02:53 PM] Rogue: next
[02:53 PM] _Steve_: [^eliot]: How good does memory protection, virtual memory and resource tracking work in current OS4? Which limitations are there?
[02:54 PM] EntilZha: Memory protection in the sense that programs run completely isolated does not work on current AmigaOS... it's technically not possible since all existing programs rely on shared memory
[02:55 PM] Coder: just wanted to add a question (if possible) "what are current relationships between eyetech an hyperion"
[02:55 PM] EntilZha: The only thing we currently do is protect certain parts from access by user programs...
[02:56 PM] EntilZha: Resource tracking is implemented basically, but it is not yet used by everyone, so basically, it's disabled by default... there are too many problems still (resources being freed by other tasks than the original allocator...)
[02:57 PM] Rogue: The relationship between Hyperion and Eyetech is as always - we're doing the software, Eyetech is doing the hardware.
[02:57 PM] Rogue: I don't think there is more to say on that.
[02:57 PM] Rogue: next
[02:57 PM] Eric_S: QUESTION: Mesa looks really interesting. How much integration into AmigaOS are you expecting to do? Will there be a mesa.library for example?
[02:57 PM] L8-X: : Are Hyperion in regular contact with Amiga.Inc?
[02:57 PM] Rogue: *coughs* :)
[02:57 PM] Rogue: Alright, about Mesa...
[02:58 PM] Rogue: We are working on a generic OpenGL framework that will basically allow a program to use OpenGL much in the same way as AGL, glX or WGL - you create a context and start using OpenGL commands.
[02:58 PM] Rogue: This will not be tied to Mesa but to a concept of an installable driver that can override all or part of the standard OpenGL pipeline.
[02:59 PM] Rogue: This way a vendor-specific OpenGL can be used as well as Mesa or even MiniGL.
[02:59 PM] Rogue: About our contact with Amiga:
[03:00 PM] Rogue: Yes, we are in contact with Amiga. I don't know specifics, since this is a management job, so I can't say more about it.
[03:00 PM] Rogue: Next
[03:00 PM] Outcast: QUESTION: Will the Grim Reaper be able to catch crashes that occur within graphics/intuition.library caused by incorrect
[03:00 PM] Outcast: pointers, or will it lock upp the system in OS4 final as well? This problem is very annoying during development and testing
[03:01 PM] EntilZha: Illegal access in critical parts of the system will always lead to such "hard" crashes. This is a problem of the AmigaOS design in general, and we basically inherit that.
[03:01 PM] EntilZha: There's no real way for the GrimReaper to catch these... these things will be addressed later
[03:01 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:01 PM] Coder: Some days ago in the forums it was said that the RKM's would be renewed and printed again. Could you share some more info on that?
[03:02 PM] EntilZha: We intent to bring the RKM's up to current specs.
[03:03 PM] EntilZha: There might be a print-on-demand printing (there are companies that offer such a service), although nothing is yet written in stone... it's planned, at any case
[03:03 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:03 PM] Eric_S: QUESTION: will full dvi support for dvi-able graphic cards/monitors make it into update#4 or the final one?
[03:03 PM] L8-X: is amigainput going to be included in update 4?
[03:04 PM] Mikey_C-A1: Before we go any further, please, those of you who have joined and wish to ask a question, join #amigaworld2. To do this do /join #amigaworld2 at your prompt
[03:04 PM] Rogue: Update #4 : no, most likely not. OS4 final: Yes.
[03:04 PM] EntilZha: That's DVi support Rogue's talking about
[03:05 PM] Rogue: AmigaInput: yes that is going to be included in update #4, most likely including the USB HID driver... I have played Descent Freespace wth my Saitek X52 FCS and it rocks :)
[03:05 PM] Rogue: next
[03:05 PM] Outcast: QUESTION: Can you comment on any possible CPU upgrades that may or may not be available for the A1 ?
[03:05 PM] Outcast: [19:58:10]
[03:05 PM] EntilZha: No
[03:05 PM] Outcast: :)
[03:05 PM] EntilZha: Sorry, we are no hardware company
[03:05 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:06 PM] _Steve_: [dEF_bASE]: Question: Hardware support (specifically, driver development for anything other than the most popular hardware) is a serious issue for Linux. How do you intend to address driver development and hardware support to avoid (or reduce) the issues that Linux has?
[03:06 PM] Rogue: We're in the same boat. Hardware support WILL be an issue, more so since many hardware companies will not part with their specs.
[03:06 PM] Rogue: We can borrow from Linux or write our own drivers, or support thrid party drivers.
[03:07 PM] Rogue: For OS 4 on embedded devices, things will look different since on embedded hardware the drivers will be custom-written for the system in question.
[03:07 PM] Rogue: But yeah, that is going to be an issue... you will not be able ATM to plug in, say, a Volari graphics card and expect it to work.
[03:07 PM] Rogue: :(
[03:07 PM] Rogue: next
[03:08 PM] Coder: Will there be socks support in roadshow?
[03:08 PM] EntilZha: Uhm, good question... Frankly, I don't know... if Olaf is here, can somebody voice him :S
[03:09 PM] Mikey_C-A1: If Olaf is here
[03:09 PM] Mikey_C-A1: then please contact an op
[03:09 PM] Mikey_C-A1: you will be voiced
[03:09 PM] Rogue: Something I forgot to mention about Update #4:
[03:10 PM] Rogue: It will have 64 bit DOS support
[03:10 PM] Mikey_C-A1: Rogue can you elaborate on that?
[03:10 PM] Rogue: Sure..
[[03:11 PM] Rogue: There are new functions that accept 64 bit file offsets and sizes. There are also new DOS package types that will allow you to use files that are larger than 2 GB.
[[03:11 PM] Rogue: currently everything is 32 bit, and signed, too.
[03:11 PM] Outcast: YES
[03:11 PM] Rogue: so that means 2GB is mostly the limit.
[03:11 PM] Outcast: you beauty
[03:11 PM] Rogue: *coughs*
[03:12 PM] Mikey_C-A1: lol
[03:12 PM] Rogue: Erm, seems Olaf isn't here... Next I'd say
[03:12 PM] Mikey_C-A1: No he isn't
[03:12 PM] DaveyD: question: will os4 support tvout?
[03:12 PM] Mikey_C-A1: I have been told
[03:12 PM] Rogue: Update 4 won't.
[03:12 PM] Rogue: For the final version, I think this is planned (for cards that support it like Radeon), so it would be yes.
[03:13 PM] Rogue: next
[03:13 PM] Eric_S: Question: Using AmigaOS4 partitioned harddrives connected via USB is not working well to say the least in pre3, will this work in Update4?
[03:14 PM] EntilZha: There was a bug in CrossDos that was causing trouble. This is fixed, and the fix will make it into update 4
[03:14 PM] EntilZha: Other than that, I can't say, because I don't know what the problem is that you're having...
[03:14 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:14 PM] Outcast: MiMe_OS4> QUESTION: will the radeon drivers be updated for #4 (overlay for example)?
[03:14 PM] L8-X: How advanced have the video drivers become so far and in final OS4 whats the latest Radeon card we can use to attain both 2d and 3d?
[03:15 PM] EntilZha: Overlay is still being worked on, but it's not in update 4, sorry
[03:15 PM] EntilZha: All Radeons from R100 up to R2xx and RV2xx are supported by 3d drivers
[03:15 PM] EntilZha: All others only 2d at the moment.
[03:16 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:16 PM] _Steve_: [ssolie]: QUESTION: Mesa looks really interesting. How much integration into AmigaOS are you expecting to do? Will there be a mesa.library for example?
[03:16 PM] EntilZha: *coughs* See above
[03:17 PM] EntilZha: Already been answered
[03:17 PM] * Rogue points upwards
[03:17 PM] EntilZha: Uhm... next ?
[03:17 PM] Coder: Are you spending more time on the OS4 version for the "classic" Amiga now that you are waiting with the final release for new hardware?
[03:18 PM] EntilZha: Not really. Except for the real low-level stuff, both versions are basically the same...
[03:19 PM] EntilZha: What we currently do is testing and bugfixing... even final releases contain bugs, so here's our chance to reduce the number of bugs that will be in the final version (and replace them by new bugs :S )
[03:19 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:19 PM] Eric_S: QUESTION: will there be public & free SDK with cross-compilers?
[03:20 PM] EntilZha: Yes, there will be. Unfortunately, this has been on backburner for far too long, and we apologize for that.
[03:20 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:20 PM] L8-X: Q:Does #4 need UBOOT update?
[03:20 PM] EntilZha: No
[03:20 PM] EntilZha: next :)
[03:20 PM] Outcast: mschulz_AROS> question: would you mind allowing AROS to be source-compatible with OS4?
[03:21 PM] Rogue: Well, my personal opinion: No.
[03:21 PM] Rogue: BUT
[03:21 PM] Rogue: Since I am certainly not a lawyer, I cannot and will not comment on legal issues... I don't mind, but the company might :)
[03:21 PM] Rogue: There are commercial interests to be taken into account.
[03:22 PM] EntilZha: Basically, this is a question for the management, and not for us... we only work here :)
[03:22 PM] Rogue: Yup :)
[03:22 PM] EntilZha: Personally, I wouldn't mind either.
[03:22 PM] Rogue: next
[03:22 PM] _Steve_: [%Jurassic_OS4]: QUESTION: Who will be responsible for the OS4 marketing. We all know how poor C= marketing was after the 64 was released with there be a hi profile scheme ?
[03:23 PM] Rogue: Erm, good question.
[03:23 PM] Rogue: I am a developer, it certainly isn't going to be me :)
[03:23 PM] Rogue: Other than that, well the website is more or less a beginning of our marketing...
[03:23 PM] Rogue: So I cannot really answer that.
[03:23 PM] Rogue: next
[03:24 PM] Coder: question: can finally use joystick/jopad with update 4?
[03:24 PM] Rogue: Yes.
[03:24 PM] Rogue: AmigaInput is going to be included
[03:24 PM] Rogue: There is a driver for USB HID devices which is capable of driving a number of USB joysticks.
[03:25 PM] Rogue: Not all are supported, we are working on a compatibility list.
[03:25 PM] Rogue: But quite a number of devices already work... Like I said above, my Saitek FCS works quite well..
[03:25 PM] Mikey_C-A1: Before we go any further, please, those of you who have joined and wish to ask a question, join #amigaworld2. To do this do /join #amigaworld2 at your prompt
[03:25 PM] EntilZha: We played Freespace with this: (Link: http://www.saitek.de/prod/x52.htm)http://www.saitek.de/prod/x52.htm
[03:26 PM] Rogue: next :)
[03:26 PM] Eric_S: PA-Semi, xenon, cell, ... everything is multicore, nowadays. Any plans to add support?
[03:26 PM] Rogue: That is a definitive YES!
[03:26 PM] Rogue: We'Re already lookng into this.
[03:26 PM] Rogue: Multicore CPU's are going to be commonplace in a few years time, we cannot afford to miss that.
[03:27 PM] Rogue: Especially with CELL
[03:27 PM] EntilZha: There are currently "legacy issues" with multicore support, so this is going to be post OS4.0 (4.x)
[03:27 PM] Rogue: This is mostly about Forbid lockign which chokes performance if used too often.
[03:28 PM] Rogue: We're working on getting this out of the system, and we're working on solutions for dual/multicore CPU support and special CPU support like CELL
[03:28 PM] Rogue: next
[03:28 PM] Outcast: Question: Is raytracer Real 4D still an issue for AOs4?
[03:28 PM] Rogue: Yes
[03:29 PM] Rogue: Still being worked on, though it is going slowly...
[03:29 PM] Rogue: We've moved it to a third party though.
[03:29 PM] Rogue: next
[03:29 PM] _Steve_: [GuruMeditation]: QUESTION: Commodore was quite excellent when it came to documentation. Will you, or anyone else print any documentation for OS4, or will it be digital only?
[03:29 PM] Rogue: Good question.
[03:29 PM] Rogue: Digital documentation is going to be the major source of information, but we're looking into things like a printed manual.
[03:30 PM] Mikey_C-A1: Before we go any further, please, those of you who have joined and wish to ask a question, join #amigaworld2. To do this do /join #amigaworld2 at your prompt
[03:30 PM] Rogue: There most likely *will* be a printed manual for the final release.
[03:30 PM] EntilZha: And a "big box"
[03:30 PM] Rogue: next
[03:31 PM] Coder: Orgin: Do you plan, at some point, to include a proper GUI based tool for task/process management? Such as listing all running processes, sending signals, changing priorities, killing individual tasks etc.
[03:32 PM] EntilZha: The whole scheduler/task system will be reworked completely in post 4.0. As such, these possibilities are probably going to be addressed late, including such a tool.
[03:33 PM] Rogue: There has been lots of work recently within exec and DOS to make graceful exit of crashed task more viable
[03:33 PM] Rogue: Resource tracking *is* functional, it just needs to be extended to things like graphics and intuition.
[03:33 PM] Rogue: Whether this will work out for 4.0 or be pused back for 4.1 is not yet decided... I'd bet on 4.1
[03:33 PM] Rogue: next
[03:33 PM] Eric_S: Question: Are there any plans for a speech program in OS4 as there was in the original Amiga?
[03:34 PM] EntilZha: Short answer: No
[03:35 PM] EntilZha: Long answer: There's been a candidate for a speech replacement for OS4, but it has not yet been pirsued. It's basically a "minor issue", and there is freely available software that can do the same.
[03:35 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:35 PM] L8-X: Any chance of some new games while we wait for OS4? I have cash to spend...
[03:35 PM] Rogue: We're currently working on some stuff but I cannot disclose what it is, nor can I say when it will be available.
[03:36 PM] EntilZha: Basically, we are working full time on OS4
[03:36 PM] Rogue: things go slow... we've got an OS to finish too :)
[03:37 PM] Rogue: next
[03:37 PM] Outcast: Chris_Y> QUESTION: What features are planned for post-OS4.0?
[03:37 PM] EntilZha: Some of the features:
[03:37 PM] EntilZha: - Multi-core/Multi-CPU support
[03:38 PM] Rogue: - Device-Independet display system. Basically something like Cairo, OpenGL-accelereated, with all the visual gadgetry like rotatable windows, transparency and the like...
[03:39 PM] Rogue: Basically improve on what we have now.
[03:39 PM] EntilZha: - Everything that's not yet in OS4.0
[03:39 PM] Rogue: Yup :)
[03:39 PM] Rogue: (good answer)
[03:39 PM] Rogue: *coughs* next :)
[03:39 PM] _Steve_: [tons]: Will hardware/software that requires proper Zorro and Classic Amiga Video support, such as the Video Toaster and Video Toaster Flyer system, work properly with OS4?
[03:40 PM] EntilZha: Yes, provided the drivers are written correctly.
[03:40 PM] EntilZha: There's nothing that prevents you from accessing the Zorro bus, or the video hardware... however, the drivers must work with the emulation.
[03:40 PM] EntilZha: next
[03:41 PM] Mikey_C-A1: okay
[03:41 PM] Mikey_C-A1: Finally to finish
[03:41 PM] Mikey_C-A1: can you comment on: Pegasos 2 port
[03:41 PM] Mikey_C-A1: and OS4 on PDA?
[03:41 PM] Mikey_C-A1: ;)
[03:41 PM] Rogue: Aye! No comment :)
[03:41 PM] Rogue: Erm... okay...
[03:41 PM] Rogue: Pegasos 2 is a potential hardware platform for OS 4.
[03:42 PM] Rogue: There is an initial "cost" involved for a port, in fact, for any port of OS 4 to a different hardware platform.
[03:42 PM] Rogue: On some occasions (like the hardware platforms mentioned in our introduction) we'Re working on that with the hardware manufacturer.
[03:42 PM] Rogue: For the Pegasos 2, we would need to do that ourselves. We're currently not ready to do that.
[03:43 PM] Rogue: That is the reason why there is no OS4 on the peg yet.
[03:43 PM] Rogue: PDA:
[03:43 PM] Rogue: Yes AmigaOS4 *does* run on an existing PDA.
[03:43 PM] Mikey_C-A1: what make? and can we have it now? ;)
[03:43 PM] EntilZha: Yeah, Workbench booting on a 240x320 display: A sight to see
[03:43 PM] DaveyD: lol
[03:44 PM] DaveyD: if Windows can do it ;)
[03:44 PM] EntilZha: I can not dsclose that without killing 519 people, sorry
[03:44 PM] Mikey_C-A1: okay :)
[03:44 PM] Mikey_C-A1: Finally in closing then,
[03:44 PM] DaveyD: everyone stick around for the after-party
[03:45 PM] Mikey_C-A1: I would like to thank you guys on behalf of everyone on Amigaworld for taking the time to answer all the questions
[03:45 PM] Mikey_C-A1: To round of Rogue EntilZha any thoughts on OS4.1 and beyond?
[03:46 PM] EntilZha: Hmm... thoughts...
[03:46 PM] EntilZha: Well, we do have our plans, but it all depends of course on the present, i.e. sales of OS4
[03:47 PM] EntilZha: Some of the plans we already gave a glimpse on, some others are not disclosed yet
[03:47 PM] Mikey_C-A1: okay, well on that note, guys thank you for your time
[03:47 PM] EntilZha: You're welcome. Thanks all for listening
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> No OS 4.0 release til there is hardware available for sale
Why not release it for existing Hardware? I have a CSPPC and I would buy it. And perhaps releasing it for the existing A-Ones would IMHO also rise up the demand for new A-One so that the needed number for producing a new batch would also be reached.
I can't understand the logic behind this.
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Releasing it for current A1 owners does not bring any money in.
They need to make as big an impact to attract fresh meat as they possibly can.
So...
No dribs and drabs release.
One BIG release with mighty Fanfare WILL attract more new users than an quiet (as far as the general public is concerned) release.
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There won't be any new Amigas (or compatibles) for some time. So the only way to get more attention is to sell it to CSPPC-owners.
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Not the way Hyperion see it, it´s right before the Q_A
[02:39 PM][02:39 PM] Rogue: The main reason is the unavailability of hardware. As you all know, AmigaOne's are not available right now, so we are not in a position to offer an OS 4 with a matching hardware.
[02:39 PM] Rogue: We DO think that once we release AmigaOS4.0, there will be a general interest in the news, in media, etc. We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market, and they will ask where they can buy it.
[02:40 PM] Rogue: If we tell them they cannot buy it right now and need to wait until the hardware is available, then this will take away a lot of momentum that the release will generate.
Looking at it from that point of view they are correct.
Reading the rest of the session, update 4 is just about what the full release would have been.
Only thing we could ask for is some kind of beta for classic users
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There won't be any new Amigas (or compatibles) for some time. So the only way to get more attention is to sell it to CSPPC-owners.
How much more attention would they gain by selling to people that are already paying attention?
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They yet again dangle another carrot in front of the remaining faithful donkeys. hyperion clearly had no intention of releasing so-called OS4 final before xmas and clearly know how to put on a act to their faithful followers.
hyperion has lost all credit from where i am looking, as far as i am concerned they are just as dead in the water as amiga inc is.
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Seer: Real reason behind this delay is that Hyperion needs to *pay* their 3rd party coders when they release final OS4 .. These beta-releases are essentially free for them cause no-one gets nothing from Hyperion until OS4-final is out.
Thus.. No OS4 final until there are enough sales to cover both Ainc lisences (including the old ones, that are partially unpaid according Eyetech) and payments to all 3rd party coders. And no.. 10 or 20 Classix-owners ain't going to cut it..
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They yet again dangle another carrot in front of the remaining faithful donkeys.
A bit of a trollish remark ? Unneeded.
hyperion clearly had no intention of releasing so-called OS4 final before xmas and clearly know how to put on a act to their faithful followers.
Appart from 1 "statement" on their website (Something like "Release date later this year") nobody said OS4 would be released before Xmas, but more around xmas time. If update 4 is as they said the same as a full release then what's your problem ? The "most needed" thing is "JIT and 3D both included in update 4.
Only the classic users maybe left out (again). Those rwho bought an A1 are not.
Oh, and FYI, no I don't have an A1, nor a working PPC classic anymore. I don't have the intention to buy OS4 or MOS at this time or in the near future.
hyperion has lost all credit from where i am looking, as far as i am concerned they are just as dead in the water as amiga inc is.
A Inc has been quiet for some time and made claims that were never true and did some stuff that only hurt the Amiga. Intentional or not doesn't matter. IMHO Hyperion did no such thing. Like the MOS and Aros guys the did deliver.
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> No OS 4.0 release til there is hardware available for sale
Why not release it for existing Hardware? I have a CSPPC and I would buy it. And perhaps releasing it for the existing A-Ones would IMHO also rise up the demand for new A-One so that the needed number for producing a new batch would also be reached.
I can't understand the logic behind this.
Well said, i couldn't agree more. A1 owners are ok with their pre-releases, but what WE suppose to do and how long should we have to wait?
With this kind of strategy, hyperion is just pussing classic users to MorphOS.
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@JoannaK
Which is precisely why Hyperion need to make as big an impact on official release as possible.
Very little money will be made on a dribs & drabs release.
A mighty Fanfare needs to sound ... Something that will get noticed in the big PC mags.
THAT ... MIGHT attract enough NEW users to the fold to pay for all the devs
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Real reason behind this delay is that Hyperion needs to *pay* their 3rd party coders when they release final OS4 .. These beta-releases are essentially free for them cause no-one gets nothing from Hyperion until OS4-final is out.
Ok, so what's wrong with that ? They never claimed they didn't need the money or that they did OS4 for free. Releasing OS4 now won't bring in any money at all as most A1 users allready have OS4 and paid for it (either in full or part of it). And like you said the few classic users aren't going to pay for the bills either.
Being super optimistic and counting both members on AW and A.org at around 8000 users.. With 2000 allready having bought OS4.. Let's say 2000 users with a working PPC ? 50 or 100 dollar a copy.. Hm..
No OS4 final until there are enough sales to cover both Ainc lisences
And how much is this license ? Nobody seems to know right ? Could be 1% of total sales. Could be 50 dollars for each copy. For all we know Amiga Inc is long gone :-P
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Hyperion are at the mercy of the hardware. With out it they can't sell Amiga OS 4.0. They need someone(s) to produce hardware that will licence Amiga OS 4.0 to run on it and bring it to market. Otherwise, they can't generate sales without software.
Too bad Troika was overly optomistic about stating they our have something out by now. What is up with them?
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Seer: The basic problem is .. that At the Beginning.. Hyperion publicly (and privately) announced that OS4 Would be final in THREE MONTHS (target was march 2002).. So everyone who agreed to lisence their code was left to impression that they could collect their payments sometime Soon.. Instead, Hyperion has been using and distributing these unpaid programs/drivers etc (as a beta releasess) for allmost Four years without payments, and there is no obvious end in sight. You tell me, is it rigth to mis-use loose wording on contract that way???
About Ainc license.. according some.. It would be about 20USD a piece, but I've no proof of this.. If those previous 1000+ machines are indeed unpaid (see Eyetech Farewell speech in Aw.net fall 2004), that would make 20K USD or more depending on systems sold..
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I don't get it.
On the one hand they complain about the lack of hardware - and I still don't see where any new hardware is going to come from - a few amateurs working in their bedrooms or Eyetech who have already lost money on the A1 and have been silent for months, along with Mai whose website hasn't been updated for 18 months and is full of missing images and dead links, and haven't shown any signs of life whatsoever for almost as long? Hardly seems like a mass-market proposition.
If there is the press and media interest that Hyperion hopes for, then they're going to have to do a lot better if they don't want to be laughed at. The readers of Slashdot and ArsTechnica are somewhat less forgiving than for example aw.net.
And on the other hand they say they're not ready to port OS4 to the Pegasos II - a proven, working, cheap, available platform already in the hands of thousands of current and ex-Amiga users.
Either they want to release OS4 or they don't.
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I'm more interested in the PDA comment, about Amiga OS 4 booting on a PDA currently, at 240x320.
That must mean that OS4 is also compiling for ARM based architectures, unless someone has made a PowerPC based PDA. It might not be optimised that much ... the only thing it would need is software. Bum.
Anyway, that bodes well for porting to other architectures in the future.
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Poster: The_Editor Posted: 2005/12/28 17:49:32
Releasing it for current A1 owners does not bring any money in.
They need to make as big an impact to attract fresh meat as they possibly can.
So...
No dribs and drabs release.
One BIG release with mighty Fanfare WILL attract more new users than an quiet (as far as the general public is concerned) release.
Yeah until the noobs say, "IT WON'T RUN WINDOWS GAME0RZ!!! OH n0es!!!1111one" :roll:
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Also I still stand behind my question that never got asked...
"Why not work something out with Elbox? Elbox states that they will release SharkPPC once OS4 is available. That's more than enough for 'new hardware'."
I mean ffs, they are waiting until "New Hardware", that will be released who knows when... SharkPPC's are more than able to run OS4... there's your "new hardware".
Work out a contract or something! :rtfm:
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A bit of a trollish remark ? Unneeded.
Hardly trolling when i myself was one of those donkeys, who would believe everything an Amiga company used to say.
Every company involved in the so-called future Amiga for years has been "TOTALLY USELESS".
I am really glad i went down the Amithlon/AF road as the A1/OS4 road is a traffic jam.
And on the other hand they say they're not ready to port OS4 to the Pegasos II - a proven, working, cheap, available platform already in the hands of thousands of current and ex-Amiga users.
Hyperion decided to port thier OS to faulty hardware, they have lost sales. Tough sh*t, they brought it on themselves.
I would have thought they would at least ported their so-called future OS to something half decent, but no they decided they knew better and continued to port their OS to hardware which no other company would touch because of known problems with the boards.
Amateurs.
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They ported to what they were contracted and licenced to. They are not to blame for the A1.
I don't see the PegII happening. Who would buy that? Any hardware sales will have to be driven by out of market(Amiga) sales.
Anyone know of any Print on Demand type operations to produce motherboards?
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Yes, AmigaOS for PDA. My Ipaq is ready!
And there are already 10's of thousands of
those little hardware platforms ready built
and waiting to go. I hope PDA is part of the
final release and that mine is compatible.
Meanwhile, I'm waiting to see the other new
hardware platforms come. I wonder what some
of the Peg2 owners think too.
Plaz
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@Invisix
Why not work something out with Elbox? Elbox states that they will release SharkPPC once OS4 is available. That's more than enough for 'new hardware'.
Why does not Elbox want to work something out with Hyperion?
Hyperion hasn't got any Shark-boards, why ?
Because Elbox doesn't seem too keen on getting OS4 to the Shark.
Conclusion: There is no Shark, just some old photos of relabeled Mac-accelerator boards. :hammer:
Elbox are welcome to prove that Shark exists, and I'll gladly admit that I am wrong in this matter.
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@Lando
"For the Pegasos 2, we would need to do that ourselves. We're currently not ready to do that."
Perhaps, (and this is just my humble opinion) this might mean a softening of previously expressed sentiments towards the Pegasos II, and right now they just simply can't support a third? or fourth? hardware platform all by themselves. Afterall, there is more than one version of AmigaOne, plus µA1, plus PPC cards for classic Amigas, plus whatever issues may arise with Amiga 1200, 3000, 4000 hardware, and a variety of add-on cards.
---
redfox
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Look guys, they didn't spend all that time developing OS4 just to let it rot. They've effectively thrown down the gauntlet, "if you build it, OS4 will come."
AmigaOS is, and will always be, very tightly controlled hardware-wise. They can cover specific hardware, but when it comes to expansion that will have to be done by US, the community.
So relax and enjoy. The moment we've all been waiting FOREVER for is nearly upon us.
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It seems that the PowerVixxen has gone into production.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16700&forum=12
Well, let's see if/when/what the offical announcement will bring.
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A mighty Fanfare needs to sound ... Something that will get noticed in the big PC mags.
:rofl: you are joking? right? I mean 'noticed in the big PC mags'... if this is what hyperion needs/are after... then OS4 will never be released.
there is nothing (I repeat) NOTHING (short of Hyperion bying Microsoft) that will ever be mentioned in the big PC mags (except as a funeral notice... 'the final death of the amiga' etc.).
Hyperion will NEVER make a big impact on anything in the computer market (nor will genesi/bplan/morphos) if Apple barely makes it into the PC mags when they announce they are switching to X86... Hyperion expects the release of a poor, underdeveloped OS, running on obsolete, overpriced HW IS going to make it into the big PC mags? keep on dreaming, or in hyperions case... stay in that coma that you are in... you won't like the real world.
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@tomazkid
why would they?
they worked closely with the CGFX guy(s) and look what they got for that... they got shafted and in reality funded the development of the G-Rex (especially the voodoo drivers for the G-Rex).
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that At the Beginning.. Hyperion publicly (and privately) announced that OS4 Would be final in THREE MONTHS (target was march 2002)..
Wasn't that for the escena/eyetech board ? Things went a bit different there... If that board was made who knows, we would be up to OS4.5 now maybe.
Instead, Hyperion has been using and distributing these unpaid programs/drivers etc (as a beta releasess) for allmost Four years without payments, and there is no obvious end in sight. You tell me, is it rigth to mis-use loose wording on contract that way???
I don't hear the programmers complaining ?
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Seer: Actually.. One did... Remeber what happened with Dopus some years ago.. It was supposed (and widely announced by Hyperion) to be licensed to OS4 but deal was cacelled due nonpayment of Hyperion. It was years ago, but tells a lot about their financial status even back then.
Besides, AmigaInc has (had?) nasty habit on adding some ugly clauses on their lisence Agreements... All AmigaINC-developer Deals (and at this point I boldly *assume* this is herited to Hyperion deals too as this is Ainc sanctified project) DENY developer to negatively commenting (or suing!) Ainc ...
And.. At least some of the devs are so much name-lovers that they are quite willing to give everything for free just to support the peoject.. (yep. I agree that they free to do so, even though it's supposed to be *commercial* system)
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Markus_Bieler: I can't understand the logic behind this [not releasing for classic hardware].
The age of the classic hardware is over.
The Editor: A mighty Fanfare needs to sound ... Something that will get noticed in the big PC mags.
THAT ... MIGHT attract enough NEW users to the fold to pay for all the devs
And the hardware. Hyperion's work is appreciated, but really, $800 motherboards aren't going to much much attention from PC mags.
I can only imaging what Maximum PC would say about AmigaOne -- if they actually cared. :-)
JoannaK: Seer: The basic problem is .. that At the Beginning.. Hyperion publicly (and privately) announced that OS4 Would be final in THREE MONTHS (target was march 2002).
I won't bother confirming that date, but I agree that OS4 is way overdue when there could have been OS4 a year ago and OS 4.1 today.
Make sure the person to deliver the fanfare isn't out of breath by the time things need to get rolling.
Lando: On the one hand they complain about the lack of hardware - and I still don't see where any new hardware is going to come from - a few amateurs working in their bedrooms or Eyetech who have already lost money on the A1 and have been silent for months, along with Mai whose website hasn't been updated for 18 months and is full of missing images and dead links, and haven't shown any signs of life whatsoever for almost as long? Hardly seems like a mass-market proposition.
Well, Hyperion did say PPC has a bright future, right? I'm sure something will come along 5 years from now.
Mai was a big mistake. Whoever made that decision really didn't do any homework. Lets hope that doesn't happen again. *cough*
Hattig: That must mean that OS4 is also compiling for ARM based architectures, unless someone has made a PowerPC based PDA. It might not be optimised that much ... the only thing it would need is software. Bum.
Anyway, that bodes well for porting to other architectures in the future.
I doubt OS4 has proper support for ARM. I'm concerned that OS4 is just a bit too friendly towards PPC, which isn't a good thing for an OS.
Invisix: Work out a contract or something!
Given the profits we're talking about here, wouldn't an IOU be more appropriate?
Every company involved in the so-called future Amiga for years has been "TOTALLY USELESS".
As a Perl/PHP/Java programmer, it's all too clear to me that both the old and "new" Amigas aren't going to be accepted very well in the new PC market.
I'm really disappointed that a new virtual machine language isn't being planned. Tools are what make or break an OS, especially if the hardware isn't competitive, and thus, raw performace is irrelevant.
People surrounding themselves with classic Amigas are really missing out on a lot of cool stuff. I never thought I'd like UNIX until I tried it, and now all I can think about is how much better Amiga could be if it was just a new desktop running on a proven OS. There are plenty of OSes out there that don't hog 512MB of memory, like Windows does.
Plaz: Yes, AmigaOS for PDA. My Ipaq is ready! And there are already 10's of thousands of
those little hardware platforms ready built
and waiting to go.
First, I don't think PDAs have anything in common with the original Amigas. Similarities are in hardware requirements only, not function.
Second, each PDA requires its own set of special drivers, as Hyperion pointed out. They could only support a very small number of devices. Given how many PDAs there are out there (compared to PC chipsets), I can only imagine how difficult it would be to support any quanity of devices. PCs conform to design standards for a reason. These rules often do not govern PDAs and other embedded devices.
Dr_Righteous: So relax and enjoy. The moment we've all been waiting FOREVER for is nearly upon us.
Well, so long as you have the hardware for it. I'd be willing to buy a special motherboard and CPU for $400, but I'm not going to put up with things like registered RAM. Even most servers don't need that stuff these days.
trgse: there is nothing (I repeat) NOTHING (short of Hyperion bying Microsoft) that will ever be mentioned in the big PC mags (except as a funeral notice... 'the final death of the amiga' etc.).
I agree. AmigaOS needs special functionality to be recognized, like a cool programming language or bundled apps. As an OS that sips system resources, it's not going anywhere. Today's supercomputer is tomorrow's budget hardware.
The A1000 was about functionality that the competition didn't offer. Meanwhile, we're debating what tools will be used to shut down rogue processes and what the system updater will look like. Wow.
AmigaDE actually looked interesting. OS4, while a nice piece of work, just doesn't seem to have much purpose.
seer: I don't hear the programmers complaining ?
Some people don't, if they don't really expect payment in the first place. Now, the people Amiga Inc. screwed over are in a different boat.
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My, my... what a lot of bickering. :-)
From a personal perspective, this is about as good as I could have hoped for.
Apart from web/e-mail/mp3-playing, my main use of my A1 is HD-Rec. An update with JIT should make this programme work much better. We'll soon see.
(JIT is already in MOS and my 600mHz peg runs HD-Rec much faster than my 800mHz A1. Unfortunately it also crashes constantly. On the A1 it is very stable.)
Shame there's no hardware to sell to release it properly but we all more or less knew that anyway.
Didn't we, Joanna? ;-)
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@ trgse
A Dreamer ... Hell, I'll gladly accept that title !!
Did an ancestor of yours stand at KittyHawk proclaiming ...
Go home everyone .. It's just a couple of dreamers {bleep} arsing around ?
Maybe you missed the early 70's series UFO created by Gerry Anderson ?
Where ED Straker is using a phone with no cord ?
(http://shadolibrary.org/aspects/eqtel1.jpg)
(lots of other "dreamy stuff on this link too .. http://shadolibrary.org/aspects/equip.htm )
Before Reality occurs .. you need the dream !!
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Before Reality occurs .. you need the dream !!
Wouldn't it be nice if marketting proposals and budgets could be dreamed as easily as ideas?
Oh look, a new Operating System. Yawn. I never thought of that before. Aren't there already a few hundred of these things around for everything from cell phones to supercomputers?
Oh look, a new way of managing files that doesn't involve click-dragging with a pointing device. Now that's cool.
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Wilse: Why did Hyperion bother making an Irc-sessiion if they had nothing impoetant to say in first place? Ok, having update-4 sometime soon is a good thing, but IMHO it does not justify a 'press confrence' like approach.
I had *small* hope they had been able to find some real and working (+available to end-users with decent price) hardware by now.. But it looks like they keep on avoiding the most profitable (even though also somewhat humiliating) alternative of porting it to Pegasos2...
Well. it's their (commercial?) OS and they are (assumingly AmigaInc don't interfere nor have $$$ to buy them out) free to mess with it in a way they see fit.
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@JoannaK
All I can really say is that you're talking a lot of BS about stuff you really know nothing about.
You can assume all you want, but you know nothing. So stop pretending you do.
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@JoannaK
About Ainc license.. according some.. It would be about 20USD a piece, but I've no proof of this
I'm sure you came across this on MooBunny Amiga:
contract (http://www.binaryriot.org/cache/os4contractdraft/03.jpg)
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@Joanna:
Why did Hyperion bother making an Irc-sessiion if they had nothing impoetant to say in first place?
That depends on what you consider important.
As I said, for me update 4 is of far more immediate concern than an official release, since I probably won't be buying it anyway.
Ok, having update-4 sometime soon is a good thing, but IMHO it does not justify a 'press confrence' like approach.
Press conference?
I think you might be getting a teency wee bitty carried away there.
A Q+A session attended mainly by people who already paid for OS4 does not equal a press conference, IMO.
And just for the record, I didn't actually attend the IRC session as my cynical side was telling me they'd only be announcing a delay due to lack of hardware.
Then I read the transcript and realised I'll be getting JIT pretty soon.
That changed my outlook completely.
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>All I can really say is that you're talking a
>lot of BS about stuff you really know nothing
>about.
It's more worse talking BS when you actually
know what is going on...
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Red_Melons: Sure.. And it was not the first time I've heard/read about this licensing deal, but I have not seen the *official* signed document so I can't tell if that version on net one was accurate or not.
All in all.. it's interesting paper to read, be it accurate(or real) or not.
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so I can't tell if that version on net one was accurate or not.
It seems wildly innacurate. Eyetech clearly stated in the price breakdown of the Micro AmigaOne that they were paying $100/board to Amiga Inc while that contract says that Eyetech would have to pay only $25.
So it appears that some time between when this draft contract was written and 2004 when the Micro AmigaOne was released, Amiga Inc quadrupled their licensing demands.
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Which was probably why Bill Buck told em to shove it !!
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Which was probably why Bill Buck told em to shove it !!
Which would explain the ridiculous price tags of OS4 associated hardware.
The only thing I can't understand, is that they have to pay separate sums after both the hardware and the software? Why?
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@Joanna
I don't how you see a deal falling through with another company, when no money or goods changed hands, equates to Hyperion screwing over developers. Perhaps you'd like to give a relevant example to back up your accusations?
I also like the way you assume that those involved in developing OS 4 are doing so because of some "name-love". I'm sure it's a great leap of logic to think these people might be doing so because they have a passion for the platform (just like the MorphOS or AROS devs do).
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The only thing I can't understand, is that they have to pay separate sums after both the hardware and the software? Why?
I'll give you a guess, four letters, begins with "g" and ends with a "d"
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@uncharted:
Well, it can't be greed as it's got 5 letters. So which word is it? ;-) :lol:
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:roll: Erm, why it's, er, GOLD of course :roll:
Phew! I almost look stupid then :-D
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Editied transcribe available here...
http://www.3Cag.net/Gallery/logedit.html
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The only thing I can't understand, is that they have to pay separate sums after both the hardware and the software? Why?
Because Eyetech has to pay for the right to call there hardware AmigaOne, as well as pay for the right to include 0S4 with the hardware.
-Tig
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It seems wildly innacurate. Eyetech clearly stated in the price breakdown of the Micro AmigaOne that they were paying $100/board to Amiga Inc while that contract says that Eyetech would have to pay only $25.
I'd love to see where Eyetech actually said the above, I'll take it here or privately if you would rather. Now 0S4 has been valued at $100 several times (starting with the Party Pack buyers who were to get a FREE copy of 0S4, a $100 value), but I dont think you are going to find Alan saying that he was paying $100 for the OS for his boards.
-Tig
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Zacman: It's more worse talking BS when you actually know what is going on...
A liar is someone who knows what the truth is, and explicitly denies it. A BS'er is someone who just doesn't care what the truth is.
Tigger: I'd love to see where Eyetech actually said the above, I'll take it here or privately if you would rather. Now 0S4 has been valued at $100 several times (starting with the Party Pack buyers who were to get a FREE copy of 0S4, a $100 value), but I dont think you are going to find Alan saying that he was paying $100 for the OS for his boards.
What matters is what the customers [will] pay for the whole system. If Hyperion is in no hurry to make a "classic" port of OS4, it's hardly worth guessing the value of the software.
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that At the Beginning.. Hyperion publicly (and privately) announced that OS4 Would be final in THREE MONTHS (target was march 2002)..
Wasn't that for the escena/eyetech board ? Things went a bit different there... If that board was made who knows, we would be up to OS4.5 now maybe.
It's taking HOW many years to port it from Escena to Teron mobos? If you were just THREE MONTHS away from a final release, that is. :-o
Dammy
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OS4 pre-A1/Teron, is not the same OS 4 as now. (and you know that)
What would of been huge chunks of the OS4 upgrade were already well-progressed at that time*, and predated even the "on-schedule and rocking" period. Three months was not inconceivable for OS3.9PPC + BB4 a-la H+P's original plan.
For whatever reason the plan was revised while waiting for the hardware, perhaps it was the threat of MorphOS, perhaps it was to satisfy a potential customer of the time. No-one except those making the plans knows.
In some ways I'm disappointed with this choice, in others I think it was the right thing to do.
*independently of Amiga Inc., whether as a continuation of 3.9 or separately I don't know.
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What matters is what the customers [will] pay for the whole system. If Hyperion is in no hurry to make a "classic" port of OS4, it's hardly worth guessing the value of the software.
I'm not guessing at the value of the software, several people have said now that Alan said he was paying $100 to include OS4 on his boards, if that really happened, I'd like to see the source. That will tell us about how much its going to cost to add it to Vixen or Troika, and give us a look at what kind of money Hyperion is bringing in for each unit.
-Tig
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Poster: Hattig Posted: 2005/12/28 19:00:34
I'm more interested in the PDA comment, about Amiga OS 4 booting on a PDA currently, at 240x320.
That must mean that OS4 is also compiling for ARM based architectures, unless someone has made a PowerPC based PDA. It might not be optimised that much ... the only thing it would need is software. Bum.
Both previous references to 0S4 running on a PDA have pointed to a PPC based one from IBM, I dont think this is any different. The screen is even the little 240x320 that they are talking about. And is uses the PPC405 that Hyperion was going on about running there OS on now.
-Tig
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BTW: For all of you who recommend a business proposal and what not. Did Intel know, what they were building in 1971 ?
They were contracted to build an integrated circuit - nobody believed in it. They couldn't make it in time. The contractor canceld the contract. Intel was left behind with a 80% finished chip - you name it, the 4004. They finished it on their own cost. Their managers had the opinion, this product will never break even - they simply did not see a market for it. 6 month later, Intel was the biggest chip factory on the planet!
At first, they didn't even know what they were building (the design was done by some uni professors), they didn't even know what their target market was. One year after launch they sent out their managers to investigate, why people wanted the chip.
This world is build on dreams. It's about time, the dry businuess thinking gets a little bit, err, 'lifted' or 'smoothened". No matter what people want you make to believe, a lot of things are there, because they did not make sence (what about Star Wars, or ...)
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6 month later, Intel was the biggest chip factory on the planet!
Hmm... it's been 6 years since Amiga Inc. has been in charge, and OS4 has been in development for several years, and has already be "pre-released."
OS4 is basicly a catch-up product, too.
Gobs of fame coming in, yet? I think not.
If Hyperion had started with an existing OS and built a new desktop, and used a VP (not VM) language, I'd have more faith in their dream.
This world is build on dreams.
Yeah, yeah. But, some people are better dreamers than others. Unlike in the 70's, people don't build revolutionary computers in their basements. Linux is an exception, I suppose, but the development strategy for open-source software is very different than commercial projects, and Linux has yet to have that big surge in poularity that has been anticipated for half a decade. Plus, it was designed to be a cheap UNIX clone, not a revolutionary new OS. The usability was already designed, and hasn't changed a lot over the last decade.
Heh. I remember when my brother-in-law (who writes Java OSes for cell phones) told me Windows would be dead in three years. That was three years ago. :-)