Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Argo on February 21, 2005, 11:24:55 PM
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Eyetech, Amont Informatique (France) and RELEC Software & Hardware Amiga (Switzerland) are delighted to announce that an agreement has been reached with AMIGA CENTER (France), who is now an official maintenance and repair centre for the AmigaOne.
This includes the hardware fixes for UDMA and USB on the XE "Earlybird" systems. Read more for the full announcement.
AMIGA CENTER (http://www.amigacenter.com/) have long been known for their technical knowhow in electronics, and most particularly for their competence with the "Classic" Amigas. They are an excellent choice to carry out the same work for the new AmigaOnes.
AmigaOne XE owners who decide to have this fix carried out can therefore now contact AmigaCenter for an estimate. Please don't send your motherboard without first contacting them!
Of course, it is possible to avoid implementing the hardware fix if you use an IDE-UDMA PCI card based on the Silicon Image 0680 chip. PCI-based USB adapters can also be used, a number having already been tested with the XE by developers before and during the "Earlybird" phase.
Amont Informatique (http://www.amont-info.com/), RELEC (http://www.relec.ch/) and Eyetech see this new partnership as reinforcing the infrastructure that is progressively being set up around the AmigaOne, which we feel is a worthy successor to the "Classic" 68k amigas. It is particularly heartening to see someone of the calibre of AmigaCenter, whom some of you may remember as Serele, still active in the Amiga community.
Earlybird owners everywhere, we know that, like us, you are only too aware of the amount of effort required to achieve a fully stable and bug-free machine, with performance in line with customer expectations. We are continually researching ways and means to achieve and improve on our objectives. However, this requires spending a lot of time and work. Most of you understood this from the very beginning, and we take the opportunity here to thank everyone who has involved and helped out in one way or another. Those who decided to participate in this adventure are pioneers, whether you bought a full configuration or just a motherboard, by buying hardware clearly labelled as "for developers only", with all the advantages and - above all - disadvantages this entails. In fact, we all owe you more than thanks, we also owe you our profound respect !
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AmigaOne XE owners who decide to have this fix carried out can therefore now contact AmigaCenter for an estimate.
I assume it will be shipping only (return-to-base basis), as described here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amigaone/message/23311)? (Of course assuming the warranty period isn't over by now)
PS. No I don't have A1, I'm just curious about this.
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Never heard about that retailer -- mind you, I thought all Amiga retailers located here were dead since about five years ago...
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Piru: Sorry, but No (information from Aw.net thread)
- According Anarchic Teapot "Price is 50 euros, including VAT but excluding carriage."
- According Gunne (GGS data, reseller in Sweden), this operation is *still* not officially recommended and may void remaining warranty.
Edit.. I took Teapot quote direwctly from AW. so it shoudl be 100% ok now..
Wayne: Thanks.. My account seems to be back
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Amiga Center is the last retailers in France and he have a very good reputation.
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/me is a french Amiga user :-D
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... by buying hardware clearly labelled as "for developers only" ...
"A lie told often enough becomes accepted truth."
- Vladimir I. Lenin
No - I repeat NO - "AmigaOnes" except a very small number of the earliest "SE" boards have ever been sold as "developer boards" (much less "clearly labelled as 'for developers only'"!), and that was obviously in reference to developing software preceding the imminent release of AmigaOS4.
How the hell is one supposed to "develop" a piece of hardware once you've bought it, anyway? A piece of hardware that's allegedly passed extra certifications and testing for an extra level of consumer protection, at that.
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Well, this is definitely good news for AmigaOne owners. I'm sure people will have a little more faith in Eyetech now that they are finally starting to honour warranties (although why they didn't do this in the beginning is beyond me...)
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@Seehund
From Eyetech website (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/addbar.php?Address=/PRODUCT/PAMA1/AMIGA001.HTM):
(edited)
Earlybird Systems
The 'Earlybird' Amigaone systems are in effect pre-consumer-production systems designed to let Amiga users who are capable and willing use the AmigaOne hardware now, under Linux. It also allows 'Earlybird' purchasers to hit the ground running when the end user version of OS4 is available, as there is likely to be a big surge in the demand for hardware when the end-user version of OS4 is released.
Please note however that in buying an Earlybird system you are buying into a product that, from the software/firmware pont of view, inevitably needs further refinement before being able to be sold as a true consumer product. Support for the Earlybird systems is provided on mailing lists to which purchasers will be subscribed.
So, in return, we are offering all users who wish to take up this 'Earlybird' offer a free, registered, copy of OS4 for the AmigaOne as soon as it becomes available. The Earlybird 'free OS4' offer will, we expect, represent a saving of around 10% on an Am migaOne-XE G3 motherboard
This of course will not suit everybody, and if you want a switch-on-and-go AmigaOne system then this Earlybird offer is not for you. In this case we're afraid that you have a few more weeks to wait. We intend to drop the Earlybird offer on 31 March 2004.
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@Elwood
I can't find this from Eyetech website, Feb 08, 2004 (http://web.archive.org/web/20040208050203/http://www.eyetech.co.uk/addbar.php?Address=/PRODUCT/PAMA1/AMIGA001.HTM).
Surely this information must have been available by some other means back then?
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@elwood
Please note however that in buying an Earlybird system you are buying into a product that, from the software/firmware pont of view, inevitably needs further refinement before being able to be sold as a true consumer product.
I dont see hardware is mentioned anywhere in this sentence.
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The fix won't invalidate your warranty providing it's done by an official repair centre.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2111&start=0
Scroll down, first anarchic_teapot post.
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http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2111&start=0
Scroll down, first anarchic_teapot post.
Now I'm totally confused.
These repairs are not warranty repairs?
You need to pay for the repair AND shipping?
If these repairs aren't warranty repairs, what's the point in "not invalidating warranty" if you don't get any benefit from the warranty in the first place?
If these repairs aren't warranty repairs, while some other repairs are, which are which? Who decides which repair is warranty and which one isn't? anarchic_teapot?
Is the warranty information (which repairs fall under warranty and which don't) officially available somewhere from the manufacturer?
Shouldn't these warranty things have been fixed at the moment of the sale of the product, rather than changing the conditions after the fact?
Also, what happened to
The European price will be adjusted to reflect the higher cost of warranty provision for the extended period.
?
For the current and future products, if any hardware faults should occur, can the manufacturer be expected to apply the same methods to "warranty repairs"?
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yes Piru i know . . . .anyway, some "serious" AOne resellers, are doing these fixes at only shipping cost (as it would have to be IMHO).
EDIT- but evidently, not all the resellers can face the expence.
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. . . and i apologize in advance, if someone will be offended by this statement and for reporting here from an HyperionMP AW.net post but . . .
"It is also a fact that some dealers are offering these fixes to their customers for free, others are not.
Some dealers have supplied free Silicon Images 680 IDE controllers.
Criticising is always easy but the fact remains that some people have put their money where their mouth is.
If you believe Eyetech and Hyperion can take on the full financial burdern of resurrecting the platform alone, think again.
We might consider ripping off the French state, bankrupting a few companies and sticking the OS 4 developers with sizeable unpaid invoices but we'd rather do business in a honest manner without handing out free bees using other people's money."
This is an honest and realistic statement, if you ask me.
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This is an honest and realistic statement, if you ask me.
No it wasnt.
We might consider ripping off the French state, bankrupting a few companies and sticking the OS 4 developers with sizeable unpaid invoices but we'd rather do business in a honest manner without handing out free bees using other people's money.
Usual from Mr. Hermans. But I wonder why he cares. Eyetech is not his company and has nothing to do with him. Eyetech is just 3rd party HW supplier, isnt it?
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If you believe Eyetech and Hyperion can take on the full financial
burdern of resurrecting the platform alone, think again.
Well both have been warned about the financial and technology risks and problems, but both have constatly claimed that it was all FUD, that they knew better, and that they wouldn't deliever halfassed products.
Both are also guilty of trying to hide away the issues the A1s have from the costumers, while they now think it's o.k. to put these costs on the back of the costumers. Yeah, thats what I call "honest way of doing buisness".....
Sorry, but they got themselve into this, and they should have investigate better before doing so, and now it is their and only their responsibilty to fix the mess they created.
About the remaining typical Ben-fudding&deflecting:
That company atleast understood that costumer-care/delievering working products is what is most essential.
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@Elwood:
[description of the Earlybird offer]
Yes, and?
To summarise: "The Earlybird offer = Buy an 'AmigaOne' now and get AOS4 for free when that's released. Until then you'll have to use Linux, and there might be firmware upgrades to do. If that doesn't suit you, then wait for the release of AOS4 so you can get a complete 'switch-on-and-go' system. But then the Earlybird offer will have expired, so then you'll have to pay for AOS4."
Perfectly normal. There are no disclaimers or even hints about the quality/performance of hardware or invalidated warranties. The hardware one buys is sold as an "AmigaOne", it's the exact same hardware as non-Earlybird customers will buy, and it's the same product you will be using AOS4 on once that's released "in a few more weeks" (http://web.archive.org/web/20030113023720/www.eyetech.co.uk/addbar.php?Address=/NEWS/AMIGA002.HTM) (link to the original announcement of the Earlybird offer).
BTW, the page you linked to has been edited and is now datestamped January 4, 2005, yet it is made to look like an old document speaking about the imminent ending of the Earlybird offer on "31 March 2004" (static source file for the PHP-produced page (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/PRODUCT/PAMA1/AMIGA001.HTM)).
The last archived version of the original can be found here (http://web.archive.org/web/20040208050203/http://www.eyetech.co.uk/addbar.php?Address=/PRODUCT/PAMA1/AMIGA001.HTM).
For example, one funny thing is that this:
The Power system is a high end AmigaOne configuration which we believe is likely to meet the requirements of the most demanding AmigaOne purchaser who wants to buy a switch-on-and go system.
has been changed to this:
The power-level systems offered by most dealers are AmigaOne configurations which are likely to meet the requirements of those purchaser (sic) who want to buy a top-end system from the outset.
I suppose that after their recent attempt to add "the motherboard is sold flawed and without warranties" to the definition of "not a switch-on-and-go system", it's no good to still be saying that it actually IS a "switch-on-and-go system". :)
A .htaccess file (set to deny public access to itself) seems to have been placed on Eyetech's server some time in 2004, preventing archiving of anything posted thereafter.
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Hmpf.. Deja something I think..
Anyway, for european A1 owners this sounds like a nice deal.
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Those who decided to participate in this adventure are pioneers, whether you bought a full configuration or just a motherboard, by buying hardware clearly labelled as "for developers only", with all the advantages and - above all - disadvantages this entails. In fact, we all owe you more than thanks, we also owe you our profound respect !
I'm sorry but I'm really disappointed now. It seems that these fixes won't be done for free. I have an A1SE earlybird system which I call an expensive system.
When I bought this, this system was advertised as a fully working and tested hardware system only the OS was not finished. In the mean time linux could be used which was marketed as a second supported system.
This system was marketed as including sound, UDMA IDE, USB, ... non of these three seem to work reliably.
OS4 is still not ready and the linux state is also unreliable on my SE.
I really do feel Eyetech owes me more then a thank you or respect. For the money I spend on the system I feel they owe me a fully working system.
Staf.
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@Fats
Are you using update2? I've read on AW.net that most of the problems with SE audio are gone.
@Kronos
Most of the users bought thier system knowing that something could be not 100% working. Read the thread on AW.net Eyetech itslef discouraged soe users to buy an A1 system. As always i want to say that A1 is working great for me, usb is not a grea problem because in you reset the machine in about 8 seconds. for ide, i'm using a Sil card. When the fix will be available in italy i'll do that of course, better to have all working 100%.
Ben Fudding? I've read comments about no Dma at all on A1 and much worse. I'm sorry you are not so balanced on this issue.
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@ikir
Ah reinventing history is fun, isn't it ?
Yes Eyetech did tell costumers that the A1 was a product with edges, but they also went to any extreme to make clear that all these problem would only ly in SW or FW, that the HW would be identical to the consumer-release, and that all bugs were just fabricated by the competion.
Bout Ben Fudd, yes he has been prooven wrongs with what he stated back than (which changed on an allmost weekly basis, but lets forget about that).
The A1SE/XE couldn't do (reliable) DMA back than, and even now they can only do it with extra HW (SIL-controller) and special kernels.
It maybe that MAI finally found a way to get reliable DMA, but thats 2 years late for companies that wanted to sell Articia-based products in 2003. You know, time is an important factor in the real world.
Bout the MikroA1. I do remember being told that DMA would work with the old A1s cos there is this new revision Articia, the new firmware, a new kernel and whatsnot, only to find out days later that bug was still there (till it was declared a feature :-o ), and for now it seems pretty similar with the MikroA1, I still haven't found a clear answer wether it still needs special kernel or if it has some sort of cache-coherncy fix added somewhere.
And I'm certainly not gonna trust Ben or one of the fanboys on this one...
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The A1SE/XE couldn't do (reliable) DMA back than
DMA and IDE DMA is 2 different things. I'm ok with sil, a cheap good card, but as i've said i'll fix my board when possible (i have 5 drives in my A1, i want all of them in DMA).
I don't undertsand why people don't interested in A1/OS4 love to post in these topics. Let A1 and OS4 user be happy or not about these news :-)
I really don't understand this A1/OS4 slandering mania.
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@ikir:
Most of the users bought thier system knowing that something could be not 100% working.
That's how everyone buys anything, regardless of whether it's a vacuum cleaner, a car or a motherboard!
But that's why there usually are warranties to repair, exchange or refund in case of faults. Either that, or clear disclaimers that the product is or can be expected to be flawed and it's explicitly sold without a warranty (and then it's usually much cheaper too). This is legislated in any western civilisation at least, but most honest dealers don't need to be threatened with legal action to honour this. It's simply good business in the long run.
The problem here is that this product has been advertised and sold as normally functioning, without any added disclaimers, with warranty. On top of that it's said to be an even BETTER product with MORE consumer protection because it's sold using a trademark licence that has been "officially" alleged to depend on certifications and extensive testing. Actual events have proven over and over again that all this has been absolute spucatum tauri. You're not more "protected" now than if you printed your own sticker (http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk/300dollarsticker.png). In fact, you could be less protected, since you could put that sticker on a piece of hardware sold by someone who acknowledges his responsibilities.
Read the thread on AW.net Eyetech itslef discouraged soe users to buy an A1 system.
Do please note that he (I only see one such user) says nothing about having been told about suspected faults with the hardware, lack of warranties or anything like that. Bobsonsirjohnny was apparently advised to buy a cheap PC instead of an "AmigaOne" (which didn't even have AmigaOS4.0-DPR at the time), since the latter would not be a suitable computer to "get him through uni". He also says he doesn't want to apologise for anyone, and thinks there's been too much misinformation.
Since "read AW.net" seems to be the standard course of discussion here, I suggest you try not to ignore what Teron-owners like e.g. RedMelons, Oxygenet, Radfoo, Coder or takemehomegrandma have to say about the information they have (not) received prior to purchase, and what they think about the situation.
As always i want to say that A1 is working great for me, usb is not a grea problem because in you reset the machine in about 8 seconds. for ide, i'm using a Sil card.
Good for you, and anybody else who's happy. Others might be likely to think that an $800 motherboard with e.g. the dysfunctional on-board IDE and USB you mention is not "working great". Those might even expect minimum legislated warranties (or "responsibilities for faults", or whatever it could be called wherever you all live) to be honoured. Then there's that expensive EXTRA consumer protection... Since Terons so far have been 60% more expensive when they're sold using an "Amiga" label, one might expect international limousine shipping for replacement of motherboards that have a slightly tinted colour, or something. :)
Ben Fudding? I've read comments about no Dma at all on A1 and much worse.
I have no idea what those comments that you've seen would have to do with Ben's embarrassing deflection in the form of pseudo-libel in the last paragraph of Framiga's quote, which is what I think Kronos is referring to. It seems like you're trying to deflect deflection! ;)
Fortunately (in this case) Ben Hermans no longer (?) represents Hyperion, despite the user description on AW.net and him referring to Hyperion as "we". IIRC, he's only providing legal advice to Hyperion these days.
Edit: fixed anti-profanity annoyance
Edited by Admin: Removed Profanity
Edit: removed any trace of both clear-text and incomprehensible profanity. ;)
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Seehund , Kronos
they (Eyetech) CAN'T economically face the expences for all the fixes, period . . . its not so difficult to understand!!!
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I'm tired of you always referring to the AmigaOne as a 'teron'.
r e f e r e n c e d e s i g n
That means you license the design and have someone manufacture it for you. If the design is licensed, the owner has a right to call it whatever they like.
And guess what? Since it was licensed, there has been alot of changes to the design! But hey, I guess you'll just ignore that and keep on calling it 'a Teron' anyway.
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Read it yourself.
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1036645965&category=web&number=10#comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1036645965&category=web&number=10#comment)
I wish I could find more funny postings from Amiga Inc staff.
Remember AI coupon campaign? Sold as "beta" systems is not so obvious:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1027042284&category=forum&number=16#comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1027042284&category=forum&number=16#comment)
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1027086975&category=forum&number=21#comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1027086975&category=forum&number=21#comment)
@framiga
Mistakes do happen. If it is economically impossible to fix mistakes - ok - understandable. But could be better say fixing for free is economically impossible than twist words.
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BB&RV wrote:
". . . When Ben Hermans visited Thendic-France in February 2002 we provided him with CyberStormPPC documentation in hope of assisting with the OS4 development and we took him to lunch. . . ."
Thanks for the link itix . . . this confirm one of my theory . . .thanks again :-)
EDIT- null regarding the AOne fix problem.
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Ikir wrote:
@Fats
Are you using update2? I've read on AW.net that most of the problems with SE audio are gone.
Are you talking about the on board audio ? I was, I don't have an extra audio card.
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they (Eyetech) CAN'T economically face the expences for all the fixes, period . . . its not so difficult to understand!!!
Shouldn't they just refund the money then?
Dammy
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ikir wrote:
I really don't understand this A1/OS4 slandering mania.
I'm an OS4 user and I find that Eyetech has made mistakes. Am I not allowed to tell how I feel ?
If Eyetech would just admit that they made mistakes I would feel much less annoyed. They should not try to twist the history or tell this nonsense about 'we owe you respect'.
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nobody is telling you or all other AOne owner that you are wrong . . .. you have all the right to argue on this.
The only thing that i think now . ."do you wanna shot on the Red Cross"? . . . i dont think so.
If Eyetech can't face to a repairs, would them efford to a FULL refund?!? . . .come on!
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@framiga
If you need to prove other theories too just ask in PM ;-)
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Poster: Framiga Posted: 2005/2/23 14:59:06
If Eyetech can't face to a repairs, would them efford to a FULL refund?!? . . .come on!
If they are the manufacturers, it's their responsibility for their product so they do owe their customers a way of fixing or replacing their broken hardware. Now if Eyetech is simply a distributor, they can push off the responsibility to the manufacturer of the mobos since they would be liable. It's all about who is legally liable for broken hardware.
If you bought a car from, say, Ford and it stalled out if it went over 100kmph, would you demand they fix it, go have it fixed yourself at your expense, or file suit against Ford?
Dammy
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do you wanna shot on the Red Cross?
Wait... I didn't know that Eyetech was a non-profit organization! I'm sooo sorry.
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Framiga,
they (Eyetech) CAN'T economically face the expences for all the fixes, period . . . its not so difficult to understand!!!
However irrelevant to current or future customers, that's quite possible.
But then they should not have been granted a licence by AInc to sell hardware for use with AmigaOS, as all licensees would "have to develop and resource a full customer solution, with guarantees on product quality, delivery, and most important of all post sales support, with firm commitments to repair, replacement and turnaround (http://os.amiga.com/corporate/041202-mcewen.shtml)". Also see the first link Itix posted above, where "fleecy" again reaffirms readers of the marvellous protection that a 60% price increase will give the consumer. If they can't even live up to what's required as a minimum by consumer laws (at least in the EU), one would have to question if they have any business selling anything at all, much less something that you pay extra for to get presumably (otherwise what's the point?) even better "protection".
As we have seen too damn many times by now, the licence requirement is utterly worthless to us AmigaOS users. It's even got negative worth, IMO.
It's been made apparent that Eyetech, who allegedly is just another licensee on equal terms with anybody else, never have had to live up to any of the licensing requirements as they were officially advertised. These contributors to inventing the compulsory licensing scheme in the first place naturally do not want more licensees, so neither do apparently AInc (provided AInc actually have a will or interest of their own in the matter).
Otherwise another dealer would be selling the same Terons cheaper now (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1081236244&category=motd&number=902#comment), especially considering that they could actually offer externally insured customer support (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1108570390&category=web&number=83#comment).
Otherwise the "ARIANA" from AHT Europe (who recently announced their presence at CeBIT and AROS support) could have been called "Amiga 700", running AmigaOS4 (http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/comments/156763.html).
The thing that sucks the most IMO is that AmigaOS4 and "all future versions" have artificially been made dependent on and linked to all this fricking de-facto-monopoly pseudo-market let's-pretend-there's-still-Amiga-hardware (http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk/newamiga-small.jpg) bull-dung.
This is where I'm supposed to post the usual link (http://www.petitiononline.com/amigaos/) for those who would like to see some changes. ;)
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@Framiga
Time for another car-analogy :-o
Eyetech are like the fool who in mid-winter blocks a high-mountain-street with summer-tires and no snow-chains.
EVERYBODY has the right to call that fool a fool, cos that what he is.
Eyetech did go through the Escena-think, but somehow Alan refused to learn the lesson.
Checking wether the stuff you want to sell is o.k. and wether you can afford support is something every respectable/honest buisness-man would do before going into such an adventure.
Just like every responsible driver would check his equiment before going onto a mountain tour at this time of the year.
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@Seehund
Since "read AW.net" seems to be the standard course of discussion here, I suggest you try not to ignore what Teron-owners like e.g. RedMelons, Oxygenet, Radfoo, Coder or takemehomegrandma have to say about the information they have (not) received prior to purchase, and what they think about the situation.
My problem is the way Eyetech deals with customers. Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying OS4 to the full. That is not what I am complaining about. The fact is that Eyetech is careless when it comes to customers. My board is SE very-very early on and the warranty is gone. I am not {bleep}ing about that. What I keep asking all the time is that if there will be a fix for the SE boards. I would go for the pci cards but at the moment the USB one does not solve my prob. I cannot use and mass storage devices. There is nothing coming from Eyetech about that. So my prob I have related to my board is that I don't know if I can ever fix it. On a side not I did had the whining sound prob which looked like it never was going to be fixed since it was a hardware thing but the second update of OS4 DID fix it. Kudos! :-)
So far about my board. What I also find absurd is that the XE owners with the probs have to pay for it while the board is in warranty. If I buy something and it brakes down while in warranty it will be fixed for free. That's it, no discussion. Same world, same rules. Just because it is Eyetech or an AmigaOne computer you can bend the rules? I don't think so.
Also Eyetech is not doing anything at all about this. All they do is give the fix info (under NDA) to companies that want to do the fix. That's not helping folks. Before the France thing they did say you loose warranty when you have it fixed. And when it goes wrong you just have to buy a new one from your own money. Hello?? Ok if this was FUD and not true then Eyetech should have stepped in and release a statement that it was not true. They did not say anything. They must have seen the response and thought wow better change that one. I mean c'mon people bring your board in under warranty to fix something you pay for and then also loose the warranty? Blimey!Even soap writers don't come up with that stuff.
As you can see I am not really happy with Eyetech because of how they work. Should I just say ah it's ok things happen? Not really. I surely don't have confidence in Eyetech anymore. Since they are sort of the only ones with OS4 hardware we are stuck with them but I sure hope others come in and play because I will be buying my stuff from them and certainly not anymore from Eyetech. Man I could ramble on forever about this mess but I will not. Does this makes me a whiner? I don't think so. If something is great and I like it I say it and when something is really bad I also will. I guess most people will just pay up that 50 euro + and just have it fixed and leave it at that. :-(
Coder
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I really don't understand this A1/OS4 slandering mania
"It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel." - J. Jonah Jameson
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Argo said:
>"It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In
>print, it's libel." - J. Jonah Jameson
It must also be noted that in order for it to be libel, the libelous person must know that he's spreading misinformation.. Basically he must be knowingly telling lies that hurt the victim of the libel..
Now.. These people that were accused of libel have provided evidence to back their statements.
How can that be libel when the dirty past is thrown at the faces of the crooks who are ripping off their customers?
Sadly, I'm quite interested in an OS4 system, but this nonsense from Eyetech is really deterring me from sending ANY money at all in their general direction.
I'll keep my A4000, thanks. :-P
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I was correcting Ikir. Not to mention allowing me to use a quote from one of my favorite movies.