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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => General Internet News => Topic started by: System on December 30, 2004, 05:26:21 PM
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According to several sources, Apple is currently in the manufacturing process for a "headless" (meaning no-monitor) iMac computer with a pricetag under $600 USD.
While this event shouldn't surprise anyone, considering the pricetag of current Amiga motherboard-only solutions, this event could have a serious detrimental impact on the "hobbyist non-PC" market that both Amiga/KMOS and Genesi are currently squabbling over.
Notable source : http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=802
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If what I've read in another article is correct, it should be $498.
Dammy
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That could tempt me to buy a Mac...
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I wouldn't have a Mac..
Steve Jobs is an even bigger conrol freak than Bill Gates.
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But surely KMOS could make some money here, by making AOS4 work with this machine, it'd provide a cheap computer for people curious about Amiga OS...
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I would agree that the potential is there, but honestly a Sub-$600 iMac would be enough to make me actually consider one. Of course I'd have to see the specs, but if they're talking about a G4 with some way of adding a lot of memory, I might be sold.
I'd especially love to see OS4 (or even MorphOS) on such a box, but I doubt it would be very possible without a blessing and assistance from Apple.
Wayne
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Still be cheaper and faster to build a pc besides apples quality control sucks.
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I'd think that you'd need Apple's permission to run Mac OS on an A1, not AOS on a Mac. My Mac G4 already runs all the PPC linux distros, BSD distros, Mac OSX and Classic 8.x/9.x so it must not be very hard to get something else running on it. ?? I bet this one will be a good seller for Apple. :-D
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I'd think that you'd need Apple's permission to run Mac OS on an A1, not AOS on a Mac. My Mac G4 already runs all the PPC linux distros, BSD distros, Mac OSX and Classic 8.x/9.x so it must not be very hard to get something else running on it. ?? I bet this one will be a good seller for Apple.
Afaik Be inc had to stop mac/ppc developements of beos, because of lack of support from apples side.
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Afaik Be inc had to stop mac/ppc developements of beos, because of lack of support from apples side.
That could be. I know that BeOS runs on my PowerComputing PowerCenter 150 very well. Wasn't it back during the clone days that Be stopped developing for macs? Back in those days the Macs needed to first boot MacOS (partially) and then kick off BeOS or linux or other. Today's Macs though are OpenFirmware and do not require the cooperation with Mac to allow for booting an 'alien OS'. Should be easier on newer >1999 macs to port an os to it. I'd buy OS4 or MorphOS if they ran on my Mac.
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There was a BeOS release 5 for PowerPC, I actually own it.. At the time when I loaded it, it didn't have all the add-on functionality that the intel version had (like no real player).
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I'm sure that you could MAKE OS4 (or MorphOS) work on a Mac, but I'm not at all sure of the legality, unless you completely removed/flashed away Mac's CMOS/ROM/whatever it's called on a Mac.
Therein lies the trouble I believe. Getting documentation for, then building a suitable replacement CMOS might be nigh impossible.
Wayne
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Pippin II :lol:
http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/ (http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/)
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However it's done would be like the linux distros do it. Using YBOOT? Not sure if I remember the terminology. :) If you buy a mac to run MOS you've already bought the mac and the mac os so Apple wouldn't be out anything.
And you never know...you might like OSX better than AOS/MorphOS :-)
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dslcc wrote:
Wasn't it back during the clone days that Be stopped developing for macs?
When the clones ended so did PPC BeOS. Because of lack of documentation.
(Jobs is evil!!!! :destroy: :ranting: )
Should be easier now with openfirmware yes!
If I could run MOS/AOS on it I would buy it too.
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There was a BeOS release 5 for PowerPC, I actually own it.. At the time when I loaded it, it didn't have all the add-on functionality that the intel version had (like no real player).
I have the 5.0 Pro CD that has the intel and PPC versions on it. Found out after I bought it that it also was designed to work on my PowerCenter clone. I ran it for awhile and it was ok. Ran SheepShaver emulation on it and it worked very well. Not very many 'new' apps for it though so I finally set it aside. It was fun though.
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Poster: dammy Posted: 2004/12/30 19:03:25
If what I've read in another article is correct, it should be $498.
Dammy
Now how to get it to run AROS with powerup, warpup, MOS-emu, OS4-emu and MOA(MacOnAros)? :-P
The rumor of a new lowend Performa is pretty persistent I wouldn´t give it too much credit. Remmember Apple marketspots is "artistic" and "high income but not intrested in technology"(the people who don´t switch ligthbulbs in their cars themselfs).
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(the people who don´t switch ligthbulbs in their cars themselfs)
I changed a lightbulb in my kitchen just this morning. But I have an above average IQ - I've been an Amiga user since 1987. :-D
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Poster: Dan Posted: 2004/12/30 17:38:06
Pippin II
http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/
Ah, the Pippin. Proof positive that at least once, Commodore beat out Apple in terms of unit sales (Pippin v. CD32 :lol: )
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...with a pricetag under $600 USD.
Finally. Regardless of what you think about Apple quality, there's little debate that their machines have always been too expensive. Being able to choose any display you want is a plus, too. I hate the LCD screens that come with the iMac, and will never own such a display.
Anyone know where I can buy a used, MacOS X capable system for $200 or less? Specs aren't important as I'd use it strictly for compatibility testing.
Still be cheaper and faster to build a pc besides apples quality control sucks.
I agree, but I recently serviced someone's Dell with a cheezy fold-open case, and I could say the same about almost any pre-built machine.
Pippin
Wow. I always thought that machine had been canceled.
Funny how the floppy drive is an option. Even after the 32x, 4MB expansion and "Bulky Drive" for the N64, and Dreamcast ZIP drive, console developers still haven't learned that add-ons don't sell. My local store has a single PS2 hard drive in stock and has been collecting dust for months. I hope people insterested in game development are taking notes. :-)
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I think it's very funny to see people on other sites (in regards to the same article) arguing that this new "$500 Mac" won't make any difference because "you can still build a faster, more well-stocked PC for much, much cheaper".
That argument sounds very eerily similar to the standard beef against the AmigaOne and Pegasos. Why would anyone, other than an Amiga diehard ever consider spending $600+ for a non-standard PPC motherboard with an unproven software base, when you can home-build a very respectably-powered, full PC (sans monitor) for the same money?
The only legitimate response to that is the same one that companies such as Eyetech and bPlan/Genesi were hoping for. That response being that there are a growing number of people -- ranging from geeks to computer illiterate parents -- who have become dissatisfied with Windows and it's inherent problems.
If Apple do release such a little beast, I think it'll be a great thing for several reasons;
1) Marketed correctly, people upset with constant Windows problems and updates will gladly disregard the small price differential to get "a machine that works without all the crap".
2) A $500 Mac would be an incredibly competitive machine for anyone wanting a new machine but but doesn't have $1000+ to put into it. (Most "Gateway/Dell/commercial" machines run $1000+ by the time you add in any extras).
3) A $500 Mac would be an EXCELLENT jumping point for those who've always been interested in the Mac platform but never had the money to justify jumping off the Windows bandwagon.
4) As someone said (perhaps elsewhere) a $500 Mac "would be the perfect commercial platform for companies, government offices, etcetera" because they wouldn't have to have a full staff of high-paid Windows supporting geeks to rebuild machines when the end-user did something stupid (like removing himself, admin, and everyone else from the system permissions). Macs, and in particular, OS X has been proven to be far easier to support.
5) Last but not least, the competition -- if Apple could sustain it against retaliatory offers for PC's put out by the Wintel Juggernaut -- would begin (albeit slowly) to make Microsoft rethink about actually FIXING problems in their damned products and being competitive.
Right now, Microsoft isn't competing with Apple. They have pretty much been able to ignore Apple altogether since Apple only has a laughable share of the desktop. I think, or at least I hope that the new Mac could change all that.
I hate to sound so negative, but please understand the difference is that I'm not trying to slam anyone here. I understand the financial realities of Eyetech/bPlan small-batching their boards versus Apple who can order them in the millions. I don't however think that either the AmigaOne or the Pegasos would ever, under any circumstances have the same shot of competing on the desktop because outside of name recognition for the Amiga (which has been all but forgotten in the public eye), it would be an unproven system with no software support for a higher price than the new "mini-mac".
For our favorite obsession, unless Hyperion and the MorphOS guys can get their OS on the "mini-mac", I'm afraid that it sounds like this new baby is ringing the death bell for the new Amiga.
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Of course I'd have to see the specs, but if they're talking about a G4 with some way of adding a lot of memory, I might be sold.
It is 1.25GHz G4 with 256Mb supplied (upgradable).
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I agree with you mostly Wayne. The only thing I can disagree is that the Mac market isn't viable. There are Millions of Mac users, it's a viable market. It certainly is tiny when compared to the Wintendo Juggernaut, but software vendors can turn a profit in it unlike the Amiga/MOS mrket.
BTW to change the subject. Does OS-X allow you to get under the hood and access the *nix core? Or are you still stuck with the GUI?
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@red,
I don't *think* I said that "the mac market isn't viable". They very much are in my opinion. It's just that -- like someone else said -- they've positioned themselves as the "better than Windows but very elitist" alternative by pricing. The Mercedes of desktop machines as it were. While that guarantees them a position in the world, it doesn't make them competitive with the world of sheep who can't seem to see past
1) price
2) Gigahertz
The new "mini-mac" (I Like that term) will go a long way towards establishing a whole lot of people who -- once they experience OSX versus Windows -- will finally understand why the cost difference is worth it. Neither Amiga solution can offer such a revelation to end-users at this point because they lack any real software support, even in the OS level, for future growth.
In regards to the "under the hood" questions, I dunno, but I'm sure it has to be accessible to some extent, even if it involves shareware to get there.
Wayne
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BTW to change the subject. Does OS-X allow you to get under the hood and access the *nix core? Or are you still stuck with the GUI?
\
Absolutely. OSX has a CLI That gets you into the 'Darwin' BSD core. It has most common BSD command line programs. It is even possible to install and run BSD programs. I've got OpenOffice.org and The Gimp installed right now.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/)
There's tons of stuff that can be done from the command line. :-D
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Absolutely. OSX has a CLI That gets you into the 'Darwin' BSD core.
Sounds like we've been "out-Amiga'd".
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Sounds like we've been "out-Amiga'd"
OS X is a very tempting OS. But it still isn't what I'd call "Amiga-like"...well except for the Dock that AOS/MorphOS seems to want to emulate. And perhaps the stability - I've never had to reboot because of a crashed app. And the GUI...very fluid motion and chrisp clear fonts. And the 'huge' software base - there have been over 10,000 programs written for OSX since its release.
I bought this Mac sortof as a 'bookmark' while waiting for AOS4/MorphOS to be completed. I think it has hooked me. :-?
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@Wayne
Gotcha, i misread.
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Download fink and you can get a lot of the standard *nix tools.
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As for Macs being expensive, well it depends what you are comparing it with, the PC market has a very wide range of prices including machines which cost vastly *more* than macs. If you compare to similar products from similar PC makers there isn't much if any price difference, in fact Macs may work out costing less.
I've been playing with my parents cheap PC and I can say I'm very glad I'm not using a PC. It's specifications are supposedly higher but my G4 but it does not require 10 minutes to boot, run slower than a P266, take 30 seconds to draw a window or crash if you try printing while using the internet.
This is a Celeron 2.6GHz which should not be anywhere near that bad but the manufacturer made their machine cheap by only including 128MB RAM, XP is evidently not happy with this, not all the malware which has managed to install itself despite my dad having a virus killer, Adaware, Spybot etc.
OS X is pretty hungry as well but 256 MB should be fine if you're not doing a lot at once.
It's simple really, you get what you pay for.
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Ewww!! CRAPINTOSH!!!
Seriously.. Mac is FARTHER from Amiga then PC! Mac has always been the simple PC that's "easy". (More like retarded in my opinion.) There isn't a single reason why anyone should buy these things.
A PC is more Amiga then Mac! At least it has knowledgable geeks! Why can't Mac just die???
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Don't hold back neofree, tell us what you really think... :)
Nah, don't. I was just joking. Keep in mind that most people who have never used an Amiga think of it pretty much the exact same way (as a toy or oddity left over from the 80's).
The Macintosh is the only system which could even pose any sort of challenge to Microsoft's dominance on the desktop. Most people NEED an "idiot-proof" computer, but on the bright side, OSX offers to let tinkers get below the skin if they want to.
Over the last several hours, I've been reading up on the net and I'm amazed at what some people are doing with them. Lots of people have pretty much cobbled OSX and they're using them pretty much as a Linux machine, which even further hurts the Eyetech/bPlan potential.
$500 for a PPC machine (not just a motherboard) that the average idiot who can buy, take home, and plug in to use as a ready-made Linux box *OR* Macintosh is a major, major thing with massive potential to make a difference.
Wayne
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If it does come out under $500, I kinda feel sorry for Genesi and Eyetech, their sqabbles and efforts will come to nothing. Well, it may have spurred Apple to go for low end PPC market, so that maybe considered a "something good came out of it afterall."
Dammy
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Peg2 could be still competitive at some points, i.e. gigabit ethernet on Linux and expandibility (AFAIK this Apple machine cant be expanded very well). Eyetech's AmigaOne Lite could have some chances too due to its small size.
But since LinuxPPC community is not very big Apple probably wipes Genesi and Eyetech out from the Linux market soon...
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BTW to change the subject. Does OS-X allow you to get under the hood and access the *nix core? Or are you still stuck with the GUI?
You can change most things with a few extra utilities, such as {bleep}tail and Tinkertool (both freely available).
And if you like to get your hands dirty, as someone else said, use the CLI.
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Ewww!! CRAPINTOSH!!! Seriously.. Mac is FARTHER from Amiga then PC! Mac has always been the simple PC that's "easy". (More like retarded in my opinion.) There isn't a single reason why anyone should buy these things.
A PC is more Amiga then Mac! At least it has knowledgable geeks! Why can't Mac just die???
I have a Macintosh here at my desk, and the only thing I can see on it that is retarded is your post.
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I'm typing this on my PowerMac G5 1.6, bought from e-bay for less than $1000 even.
I loaded it up with 2gb of RAM. Runs great. And I 2nd what others say...I've owned mac's before, and I just got it cause I love doing creative work...say 3d rendering or animation on the Mac...it's just a fun computer that I like to do fun things with....at work I stay mostly in the Unix world...and I keep meaning to put oracle on this thing...but actually, despite its geek potential, I've stayed busy without geeking it up, just yet (that may change soon, though, fink, mono, xmlrpc, xmlblaster....ooh la la)
darn it I started slobbering and forgot what I was saying...
anyway, oh yes....I never realized how much time I had come to constantly waste on these stupid virus's on the pc....now I always surf on the mac, and my very high spec'd pc, just is used for the occasional tunnel into work.
as for a sub 600 mac....Apple needs it. I don't think it will be a world beater, as people play games, and pc's have the most games....but, for those who were really in the Mac camp, but just couldn't stomach the high price of the Mac (and it is really high)...they can finally purchase a new machine. And I can see how amigans, who are naturally curious about alternative os's..would certainly want one too.
I still think linux runs better,faster on x86, however.
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Mac has always been the simple PC that's "easy".
Simple and easy is something that takes brilliant programming to achive. It is not a bad point, but a good point. The only other operating systems that fall into the 'simple and easy' category are AOS and Morphos.
Think what would it take to make Windoze 'simple and easy' and you will list the things that make AOS a great OS.
:-D :idea:
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If this turns out to be true I will defenitly be buying this. Final Cut Pro 2 or 3 would run pretty well on a 1.2 ghz G4. Maybe just add a little more ram.
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@Waccoon -
Anyone know where I can buy a used, MacOS X capable system for $200 or less? Specs aren't important as I'd use it strictly for compatibility testing.
RetroBox (http://www.retrobox.com) has some... Actually, they have lots of really cool older systems!
As for the people who say Macs are simplistic and not advanced.... These are basically people who haven't used OSX. OSX allows a lot of tinkering room, if you choose to venture there.
Almost all the options typically available on a computer are available through the pretty candy-coated OSX GUI.
But, you also have a shell, that is your standard Unix-style shell. Unix commands work as expected. Many config files are where you'd expect to find them, as well.
You can use the computer however you'd like. I had to use one for a couple-month contract late last year. Myself, coming from a PC/Amiga/Linux background used the Mac like a Linux box. My co-worker, a longtime Mac fan, used it like an older Mac. We were both amazed at how well both of our totally different approaches worked. I don't think he ever touched a shell, and I only left mine to click buttons in apps.
As much as I liked the Mac, for my own use, I couldn't justify spending that much money for a machine that didn't do anything I couldn't do on my PC. I might consider picking up a sub-$600 new Mac, though, especially if Apple comes up with some novel TV-PVR/Media PC type features built-in.
This new Pizza-box Mac has my curiosity.....
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Yeow!
You mean, Macs cost more than $600 now!?!?
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Somebody PLEASE change the topic for it is misleading. It is a sub $499 Mac, NOT $600.
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Technically it's a rumour of mac that's rumoured to be under $500 :).
Whether or not it's vapor that never existed and never will... that's something won't find out until 11th January around 10am SF time.
dana
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QuOtE--
Quote:
Poster: Dan Posted: 2004/12/30 17:38:06
Pippin II
http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/
Ah, the Pippin. Proof positive that at least once, Commodore beat out Apple in terms of unit sales (Pippin v. CD32 )
qUoTe--
Hey....
Don't laugh I have a Pippen, except mine's Nintendo-grey not black like the one in the picture! A truly unique, worthless curiosity. I get more play from my CD32!!
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Last I checked $499 was less than $600. So, the topic could effectively be sub-$1,000,000 and still be correct.
:-D
(Not to mention the price, specs, and availability are all speculation as of now...)
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Last I checked $499 was less than $600. So, the topic could effectively be sub-$1,000,000 and still be correct
Kindof like saying 'Sub-120F temp - bring a jacket.' :-D
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Yes but sub $499 sounds much more attractive than sub $600.
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Yes but sub $499 sounds much more attractive than sub $600.
Very much so. :) I hope that it ends up being less than $499.
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Well, then we can assume the following...
Price: Sub $500
CPU: Sub G5
Expandability: Sub Zero
Quality: Sub-standard
I'm just kidding, but it might be a neat box as a second computer if it does have good hardware. It sounds like the old G4 iMac without the fancy case and flat screen.
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If it's like most new pizza-box computers (examples, the tiny Gateway and Dell boxes), it'll probably be expandable solely by firewire or USB, which doesn't mean it's non-expandable.
Personally speaking, that sounds pretty small-box-Amiga-like to me. Small central box, wires or wireless leading to smaller add-on boxes.
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Personally speaking, that sounds pretty small-box-Amiga-like to me. Small central box, wires or wireless leading to smaller add-on boxes.
I wrote a review of an iBook nearly a year ago and suggested they could build a iBook without a screen for a decent price (the screen is a major chunk of a laptop's price). It sounds remarkably like that.
It'll not be a spectacular machine but fine for 99% of users.
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2) A $500 Mac would be an incredibly competitive machine for anyone wanting a new machine but but doesn't have $1000+ to put into it. (Most "Gateway/Dell/commercial" machines run $1000+ by the time you add in any extras).
$500 USD is a reachable price target for the PC world e.g. HP's SR1000Z* and SR1010Z** series barebones configured (1).
** K8 Sempr0n 3100+ based.
* K7 Sempr0n 2800+ based
Notes.
1. Spec similar to
"256MB of RAM, one FireWire 400 port, two USB 2.0 ports, 10/100Base-T Ethernet, DVI and VGA with dongle, a 56K modem, and a low end graphics card"
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The Macintosh is the only system which could even pose any sort of challenge to Microsoft's dominance on the desktop.
In actual reality, Apple's Macintosh system is not a real "threat" i.e. inferior distribution infrastructure model.
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4) As someone said (perhaps elsewhere) a $500 Mac "would be the perfect commercial platform for companies, government offices, etcetera" because they wouldn't have to have a full staff of high-paid Windows supporting geeks
This is an obsolete IT support model e.g. major Australian companies *out-sourced* their IT support activities to third parties.
Secondly, Linux desktops (mostly X86 PC based) is another factor to consider in the corporate PC world.
There’s more to it than the PC HW + OS solution in the corporate and government world i.e. legacy MIS (managed information systems) and knowledge based systems applications.
to rebuild machines when the end-user did something stupid (like removing himself, admin, and everyone else from the system permissions). Macs, and in particular, OS X has been proven to be far easier to support.
Refer to http://www.macfixit.com as examples to MacOSX's related issues.
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For our favorite obsession, unless Hyperion and the MorphOS guys can get their OS on the "mini-mac", I'm afraid that it sounds like this new baby is ringing the death bell for the new Amiga.
Bingo!
Face it, nobody could but Humpty Dumpty back together again. The best technology to ever fall into the lap of the consumer and all anyone could do was drop the ball. Every time Amiga changed hands I emailed the company and told them what's up. They never listened. (Though I have to admit Fleecy was quite nice about it).
But alas it now looks like his ship's about sunk for good, no pumping the billows any longer. And the new iMac will be but the first blow. In a few more years the advent of a whole new style of PC will be on the verge, and then, then Amiga will be completely irrelevent --nothing more than a nostalgic memory.
Of course, there is still a chance, but the likelihood that the right people would start listening... well, those aren't betting odds.
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I would love to welcome all you Amiga heads in becoming Mac-heads too. Many of us Mac users have used and admired Amiga at one time or another. And it's flattering to see the likewise is true also.
I would ask you to take this rumored "headless" iMac for what it is. A plausible rumor but still a rumor.
However there are good deals on "pre-loved" Mac hardware on ebay and elsewhere such as which also contains a very helpful and very trollable Mac-buying forum type place.
Lets all cross our fingers now that we may get a nice "surprise" by the time Ukrainian Christmas comes along. And in the holiday new years season let us few Mac and Amiga users prey for the many users less fortunate than us. :-)
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However there are good deals on "pre-loved" Mac hardware on ebay
I got my G4 Sawtooth for $280 on eBay. Best computer I've ever owned (except for my A3000 of course, but that machine croaked a long time ago).