Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: bhoggett on October 14, 2003, 02:55:04 PM
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This is in response to Swoop's points in the locked thread.
(Please folks, let's not turn this into a "comments on Fleecy's statement" thread. Read them, nod sagely or laugh your head off depending on how seriously you take him, and let it go.)
If you re-read Rogues reply, he is agreeing with you.
The hardware vendor is the first line (of hardware) support, and if the problem is not hardware, then Hyperion are responsible for the software support.
The point is that you must contact the hardware manufacturer or the system vendor first, and they have to evaluate the problem and manage the issue, even if you know beyond a shadow of doubt that it is a software problem related to the OS and has nothing to do with the hardware. This is normally a task for either the developers (Hyperion) or the publishers (Amiga Inc).
BTW you may not own a MAC machine or run MAC osX, but if you own a Wintel PC, you will find a proportion of the price you paid is for an OS License.
I don't own a "Wintel" machine. I own an x86 on which I choose which OS to install. No, I am not paying a license to Microsoft when I buy my motherboard. I pay a license to Microsoft when I buy Windows.
Why should you treat Hyperion any different to bill gates. As a company, if it is not potentially profitable for Hyperion to port the OS why should they bother.
There is a precedent against Microsoft bundled software already. If you buy a system which includes bundled Windows in the price, but you do not want Windows, you are entitled to a refund for the price of the software. Why should Hyperion/Amiga Inc be treated any differently?
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let it go.
let it go?!?! You got to catch it first!
I will wager you won't catch the CTO of Amiga Inc. who ever that maybe this week.
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bhoggett wrote:
Why should Hyperion/Amiga Inc be treated any differently?
Cos they are Hyperion/Ainc ....why else ???
The basic question is not about licence/certificate, but about inflated/hurt egos
and some odd views on reality.
Sticking to the promise "available for all suitable HW" (like it was before 4/02) would
have damaged their chance in the market when they realized that OS4 won't be
the sunday-afternoon-stroll they thougt it was.
The current licence-scheme does help:
Eyetech, cos they are the only ones selling HW "ready for OS4".
Hyperion, cos people couldn't go buy-Peg-now-and(-maybe)-OS4-later.
AInc cos the A1-name licence is by far the biggest share they will get from OS4/A1.
(according to Ben, they won't get much for every copy of OS4, and the OS4-licence
is even supposed to be free).
Also note that they changed tone when I did look likely that some dealer might sign
that licence for OS4. Now they are babbling about "only 600 boards sold",
but when was the last time that any Amiga-related product sold lets say over
1000 copies ? Well Amithlon comes to mind, but those are even more lost for Hyperion ;-)
There is also a damn good reason why only 600 were sold (and yes some canceled/
delayed their orders when Genesi (prematurly) annonces that they would make the Peg2),
and lot of these boards aren't in the hands of "joe-6packs",but in those of the
fabeled "bed-room-coders", the real back-bone of this community for the last 10 years
(if not longer).How many of those will spend another 1000Euro (full system),just to
use/support an OS similar to the one the allready run ?
Which brings us back to:
The basic question is not about licence/certificate, but about inflated/hurt egos and some odd views on reality.
The only ways to see OS4 on the Peg (officially):
a)Hyperion realizing that they can't sell >10000 units while being bundled to
HW at the band/bug-rate of the A1s (don't expect an ArticiaP-based mobo
anytime soon,they have just moved "engeneering samples" form Q3/03 to Q4 (was
even Q3/02 at a time), and it is a long way from that to an end-user-ready board.
b) Genesi realizing that they are "nothing" with out the name.
If none of the 2 happens : NO OS4 on Peg.
If 1 happens : Eyetech and AInc would probraly still be standing in the way.
If both happens, and AInc returns to the "real world"(*), whooooo ......
seems I would have to go AROS-x86 in that case :-P
Sorry,for bringing this so far OT,but I'm just sick of people discussing the
emperor's new cloth,when they should be discussing his odd ..... well use
your imagination :-D
(*) There is only one thing they could do in the real world......
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@bloodline
Matt, you're a very naughty boy. Consider yourself chastised. ;-)
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There is a precedent against Microsoft bundled software already. If you buy a system which includes bundled Windows in the price, but you do not want Windows, you are entitled to a refund for the price of the software. Why should Hyperion/Amiga Inc be treated any differently?
ermm ok , did you happen to know that almost every product here in norway (anyway) is infact "OEM" products , ie you can't go to the shop and say...HEY i want my money back because i use Linux and not windows on this machine.
the shop people would just laugh at you if they are sane...or?
anyway when u liscense out an oem then its for several reasons one of em is "PRICE" , ie by forcing a market , lets say you do a new program and wants to promote it...you then normally? (atm anyway) do an OEM of it.
so i dont see what on earth you meant by this single item.
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to put it way out on a limb here , you could go like..
1. you bought PC WORLD issue X , in the issue you got a freebie, a full program.. the program doesnt interest you at all, so you go back to your news agent and tells them to give you money back because of the "LISCENSED" product put on the cd as a freebie , so what happens according to you here would be...
buy 1 magazine for 10 usd , get 400USD refund because the software aint of your interest and you will never use it.
, oh yeah and there is more to it...we have consoles atm who have OEM liscensed software with em , 1 console and 3 OEM games.
infact if you could have gone to the shop and said "HEY I WILL NEVER use theese games, i want a refund" then you would infact get 2 of theese consoles ..
got my point now? , there is a reason why its OEM! and its not to be sold OUTSIDE of the liscense and its not beeing altered in anyway at most cases (only a few productshave a special "this is an OEM product" inside the actual program/game.
--i may add that i havent read the old thread and i wont either because talking about it more "like this" would do any good or any bad, it just seems that someone just wants to put someone in bad light.
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@lempkee
The point I was making is that there is a legal precedent reegarding bundled software. Yes, you can refuse any bundled OEM software and get a refund if a license fee for including it in the package is involved. Obviously "FREE" copies don't count.
Yes, the vendors may well laugh at you, but if you want a product and tell them what purpose you want it for, they cannot force you to pay for bundled software you don't have any use for. The vendors laugh because not enough people realise this.
Even regardless of that, tell me since when do customers who have a problem with Microsoft Office have to contact A-bit to report it? Or the shop they bought it from? Or the distributor?
Software support, from first-line onwards, is the responsibility of the publisher, and if the publisher can't handle it then it falls to the developer. NOT the hardware manufacturers or the system vendors. There is an exception to this in the corporate sector, but this is the consumer sector we're talking about here.
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So.................has anyone actually applied to Amiga Inc. for a license?
If so, what was the outcome?
Because, until someone does and then publicly explains what stopped them from getting it, the whole argument is moot.
I bought a Pegasos and an AmigaOne. I'd like to see OS4 on the pegasos *and* MOS on the AmigaOne.
Now why is noone bleeting about MOS not having been ported to the A1 yet?
Personally, I'd love that - then I'd be able to use the thing at least. :-P
These arguments are amusing but futile methinks...
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@lempkee
The point I was making is that there is a legal precedent reegarding bundled software. Yes, you can refuse any bundled OEM software and get a refund if a license fee for including it in the package is involved. Obviously "FREE" copies don't count.
Yes, the vendors may well laugh at you, but if you want a product and tell them what purpose you want it for, they cannot force you to pay for bundled software you don't have any use for. The vendors laugh because not enough people realise this.
Even regardless of that, tell me since when do customers who have a problem with Microsoft Office have to contact A-bit to report it? Or the shop they bought it from? Or the distributor?
Software support, from first-line onwards, is the responsibility of the publisher, and if the publisher can't handle it then it falls to the developer. NOT the hardware manufacturers or the system vendors. There is an exception to this in the corporate sector, but this is the consumer sector we're talking about here.
so we have to be lawyers to be customers of OEM products now ?
also if you remove the bundled software then the console or computer you buy would normally be alot higher than if you bought the actaul OEM liscensed one.
so please SPARE me from this.
a last note , is it up to the customers worldwide now to determine if its a liscensed oem product or if its tossed in as a freebie ? , all cover mounted stuff HAS to be liscensed (as in, contacted the company who made it or whats left of it etc) , anything else than that is PIRACY!
about this:
Even regardless of that, tell me since when do customers who have a problem with Microsoft Office have to contact A-bit to report it? Or the shop they bought it from? Or the distributor?
thats a very good point! , and as the actual state of the pc industry this is upto the shop that sold you the stuff and down to the end user,
its pissing alot of people off , like big companies who make oem deals with a shop and delivers machines out to the workers (private) and then the actual workplace gets herrased by people needing help etc, all in all i think the shop should have full responsibility for what they sell , if they did then they also would loose customers and have no one to blame , the most common thing you hear is "its not our fault, its m$" but they still keep selling the #### and in the long run the users just accepts it or forgets it.
its like , if you go and rent a DVD and its not working , then the shop wont say , ERM ITS NOT MY FAULT ,its the chain we work for , contact NEWLINE ...or whatever .
simply they do this , ask you to pick another one (some shops/blockbuster rent etc actually tests the medium if its working and no matter the results they give u a free rent movie)
this disucussion is pretty dull, we all know how it is in the real world , if you buy nything then you go to the shop and you dont start messing around unless its a last resort.
and beyond that you don't buy macosx to run on a pc with windows and expect it to work straight out of the box do u? (mol is an option but that requires linux)
so if you want amigaos , buy an amiga.. easy as that.
(or an amigaos liscensed machine, you buy a branded os for an branded machine)
anyone here bought windowsXP for their pegasos yet? ..
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one last thing , does this mean i can tell genesi i dont want "superbundle" and want an discount?
and that the discount should be as high as its worth buying from retail ? (individual software)
cheers
pps:if not, then it seems i must be an lawyer to understand this..
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@Bill
As I understand it anyone can contact Amiga Inc for a license/Certification. By that I mean - If I decided to buy 5000 of mobo X and I met all of Amiga Inc requirements (technical docs/sales forcasts etc etc) then OS4 would be ported, and I could sell mobo X with OS4.
Now the deal is that I would provide the first line support, not the manufacturers of mobo X.
[EDIT]
Therefore those people that want mobo X with OS4 buy it from me, and those that don't buy their mobo X from someone else.
That way you don't pay for OS4 if you don't want it.
[/EDIT]
Rassilon
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Rassilon wrote:
@Bill
As I understand it anyone can contact Amiga Inc for a license/Certification.
Hey, T_Bone, wanna do the honours? OK, I'll do it then. :)
Lookee here (http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/92330.shtml).
Every last detail of this goddamn mess is just sick.
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Since olegil forgot to include the link himself in his reply, here (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1061874058&category=forum&number=8#comment) is the direct link to ANN.
I apologise to the pay-per-minute modem users who I made waste precious seconds on Moobunny. By linking to the Moobunny thread on this topic I figured I wouldn't need to cut'n'paste my comment from there to here. In retrospect, a cut'n'paste would've been more efficient than this harangue... :) Oh well.
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@lempkee
one last thing , does this mean i can tell genesi i dont want "superbundle" and want an discount? and that the discount should be as high as its worth buying from retail ? (individual software)
Nope. Apple and Genesi can get away with it because they supply both the hardware and the software, so there is no way you can prove that the software involves a license fee. (Genesi may pay a license fee to the developers, but make it available to the customers for free as part of the bundle)
With OEMs, that is not the case. Their audits will show that they are paying a license fee for the bundled software, and passing part of that on to the customers.
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Wilse wrote:
So.................has anyone actually applied to Amiga Inc. for a license?
If so, what was the outcome?
See above.
Because, until someone does and then publicly explains what stopped them from getting it, the whole argument is moot.
Nope. Even if someone other than Eyetech actually would be granted a license, it still would mean that AmigaOS users would not be allowed to buy their Pegasos, or whatever hardware we'd be talking about, from whomever they like. They would not be able to buy a 2nd hand Pegasos, unless the previous owner had bought a licensed bundle. Pegasos users who bought their hardware without AmigaOS would not be allowed to buy AmigaOS at a later date (like, when it's hypothetically ported to the Peg). People who would have bought licensed hardware could not uninstall and keep their current AmigaOS, sell their old hardware normally, and use their already payed for AmigaOS with newly available and AmigaOS compatible hardware... And so on.
I bought a Pegasos and an AmigaOne. I'd like to see OS4 on the pegasos *and* MOS on the AmigaOne.
Even if someone got a license to sell Pegasos+AmigaOS bundles, you wouldn't be allowed to buy AmigaOS for your Pegasos. It's not AmigaOS licensed/bundled/dongled, and it's not bought from an artificially created "Amiga" market.
Don't you understand that you need to be protected, Wilse? It's for your own good. You have bought potentially sub-standard hardware from a rogue and price-gouging dealer. Get thee to the licensed dealer and buy a new Pegasos. The licensed Pegasos has passed AInc's thorough testing and certification, so obviously it's much better than any normally sold exactly identical Pegasos. It's max a couple of hundred dollars more expensive than a normal Pegasos, so you'd be protected from price-gouging as well.
Is my point clear yet? :)
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So the guy never heard from them again - proves nothing.
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@Rassilon
Yes, you are right in theory. However, look at it more closely:
As a vendor, would you have access to all the technical documentation of the hardware, including all the low level stuff?
Can you provide sales forecasts for the entire platform, or must you restrict yourself to your own sales only? The latter I suspect, and if so how likely is it those won't be hight enough to justify the port alone. Note also that no figures or levels are announced as to what would and what would not be acceptable. This means any vendor or proposal could be turned down even if it matches the criteria of one that has been accepted. Who's to know, since these proposals are usually under NDA?
What I'm saying is that the licensing scheme currently in effect is designed for political control, and not for technical or commercial reasons alone.
At the very least the licensing conditions that need to be met should be fully publicised in detail, and Amiga Inc should commit to accepting any proposal which satisfies them, irrespective of who it comes from.
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Even if someone got a license to sell Pegasos+AmigaOS bundles, you wouldn't be allowed to buy AmigaOS for your Pegasos. It's not AmigaOS licensed/bundled/dongled, and it's not bought from an artificially created "Amiga" market.
This is not certain. If stand alone versions can be released for Blizzard, theoretically this could also happen for Peg.
Is my point clear yet? :)
Not really, no.
And even if there was no license, that doesn't mean it would automatically be ported.
Otherwise, why ain't MOS ported to the A1 yet?
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@Wilse
the OFFICIAL word is that the CS/Blizzard-Version(s) are the only ones to
be sold seperatly, all other MUST be bundled with a (newly bought) mobo.
That is what the whole ruckuss is about, you know ;-)
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Just a quick question, how do current AmigaONE owners get a copy of OS4?
Is it sent to them on a CD-R, with a few photocopied sheets of install info?
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@Wilse
This is not certain. If stand alone versions can be released for Blizzard, theoretically this could also happen for Peg.
No it can't. It's been made abundantly clear that no stand alone versions (except for "Classic" Amigas) will be licensed for sale. Fleecy has just confirmed that once more in his statement. It will be impossible to buy AmigaOS4 unless you are buying it as part of a complete hardware+software system.
Even if Genesi got a license, those people who already own a Pegasos would not be entitled to buy AmigaOS4 without buying a whole new hardware system.
Hyperion seem to contracdict that when they mention dongles, but that does not tie in with Amiga Inc's statements.
It won't happen any more than MOS being made available for AmigaOnes. The reasons are political on both sides.
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Wilse wrote:
Even if someone got a license to sell Pegasos+AmigaOS bundles, you wouldn't be allowed to buy AmigaOS for your Pegasos. It's not AmigaOS licensed/bundled/dongled, and it's not bought from an artificially created "Amiga" market.
This is not certain. If stand alone versions can be released for Blizzard, theoretically this could also happen for Peg.
Hey, quit stealing my arguments! :)
Yes, of course AmigaOS must also be sold "shrinkwrapped" to be installed on already owned hardware, and on hardware bought wherever and in whatever way the user damn well pleases. It's none of the software vendor's business.
If AInc's compulsory licensing/bundling/dongling scheme isn't changed/dropped, as currently a thousand people including me are publicly asking them to, this will not happen. Not even theoretically. AmigaOS will not be for sale separate from hardware.
Of course AmigaOS will be available illegally sooner or later, circumventing the hardware monopoly checking mechanism, but what good does that do AInc, Hyperion, AmigaOS, and us who want to buy the OS? The alternative would be to make money on sales of the product. *shock horror*
And even if there was no license, that doesn't mean it would automatically be ported.
Of course not. Just as the existence of a license applicant doesn't make software write itself.
Otherwise, why ain't MOS ported to the A1 yet?
I suspect it has something to do with that, in contrast to AmigaOS/AInc/Hyperion, it's the same company that develops, makes and sells both MorphOS and (software) and the Pegasos (hardware).
OTOH, since Genesi is in control over their own hardware development, and if they manage to keep up with the hardware competitors, I'd think that MorphOS for other hardware would be a good thing. A larger userbase and potential future Pegasos customers.
Ask Genesi.
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There is a precedent against Microsoft bundled software already. If you buy a system which includes bundled Windows in the price, but you do not want Windows, you are entitled to a refund for the price of the software. Why should Hyperion/Amiga Inc be treated any differently?
To my knowledge you can buy A1 without OS4. You can't buy OS4 without a licensed motherboard though. So your comparison is faulted.
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@Fats
To my knowledge you can buy A1 without OS4.
Nope. Alan did say he intended to make the motherboard available without AmigaOS4, but that is not the case yet. Even if it did become available, it cannot be called an AmigaOne, because both Alan and Fleecy confirmed that the name is tied to the bundle.
Furthermore, if you did buy such a motherboard without AmigaOS4, you cannot later buy AmigaOS4 for it. You will have to buy a whole new system.
The equivalent is Microsoft telling you that if you don't buy Windows bundled with your hardware, you can't buy it at all.
What is strange is that Eyetech have, AFAIK, sold AmigaOnes without AmigaOS4. The customer is comitted to buy AmigaOS4 when it is released, but they haven't been charged for it yet and it is questionable just how enfoceable such a condition is under law.
Whichever way you look at it, it's a "unique"scheme.
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Everyone who bought an AmigaOne has been charged for OS4. It was included in the price. Every A1 owner will get OS4 "for free" since they signed up for the EarlyBird offer.
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bhoggett wrote:
The point is that you must contact the hardware manufacturer or the system vendor first, and they have to evaluate the problem and manage the issue, even if you know beyond a shadow of doubt that it is a software problem related to the OS and has nothing to do with the hardware. This is normally a task for either the developers (Hyperion) or the publishers (Amiga Inc).
There are three elements to any system, the hardware, the OS and the application. In case of problems, the majority of users would contact the dealer from whom they purchased the application. (first line of support). if this was not able to be sorted out by the dealer, you would be directed to the application publisher, or more likely the dealer would follow it through himself, in the first instance.
I have, unfortunatley, to use a PC for my accounting needs, and use Sage Software. If I had a problem with Sage software, I would not expect to contact Microsoft direct to get the problem sorted, and even if I had a problem with windoze, I wouln`t expect to contact MS direct, I would go back to my dealer. If I had a problem with the hardware I would also contact my dealer, or where ever I had aquired the hardware. At no point has the user had any direct contact with Microsoft. If it becomes obvious that there is an OS or OS/Harware related problem, the dealer/publisher/distributor relates the problems back up the chain to Microsoft, who then evaluate the problem, and if it is an OS problem they then provide fixes, not directley to the end user, as this targets only one user, but through the dealer/publisher/distibutor chain, so that all users get the solution.
Microsoft doesn`t provide direct support to individuals, there is always a middleman, that isn`t to say that the individual isn`t supported by microsoft, he/she is, just through the distribution chain. In the same manner, Hyperion/AInc will support the end user, not on a one to one basis, but through their distribution chain. Which by default means Hyperion is essentialy, the second line of support.
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@swoop
What you are talking about is the corporate/business model of support.
In these cases the "dealer" is not just selling you a box with the software or hardware, but an entire support package. This is quite normal and how most businesses work.
However, what you are talking about in the Amiga context is someone buying something over the counter of a shop and then expecting that shop to handle all his problems. Small vendors cannot operate this way, because they simply cannot absorb the immense costs, unless you think AmigaOS should cost $2000 a copy or so. Furthermore, a vendor can only provide that support if you only use the kit he sold you and nothing else. As soon as you start upgrading your system with off the shelf components, the vendor won't want to know.
The reality is that neither Amiga Inc nor Hyperion have the support infrastructure to support a product of the complexity of an operating system. Hyperion's support is mostly carried out by the coders themselves and sufficient for their games, but not for complex applications, while Amiga Inc's support is of the "fob 'em off with some BS" variety, or at least that's my personal experience.
The proposed licensing arrangements are designed to benefit one side only, while leaving the other party to carry all the expense and responsibility. Eyetech are happy with this because they were involved in the formulation of the conditions and the unpalatability ensures they get a monopoly. No one else agreeing to the deal thereafter would get that.
I repeat: when I have a software problem with my OS I don't go to my hardware manufacturer. I go to the software publisher whom I have registered my product with.
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@bhogett
I appreciate what you are saying, but the conditions of your point do not exist.
A1`s are only sold through dealers, not over the shop counter, and as previously stated, if I had a problem with an application, I like you would also go back to the software publisher, but not the OS provider, until it was found out that the problem was with the OS.
Again, in your scenario, Hyperion would still the second line of support.
Now if I had a problem running one of Hyperion`s games (the application), then they are the first line of support, but only because they published the application, and not because they wrote the OS.
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The sheer amount of BS and misinterpretation generated by all sides over this is amazing.
Which is why it felt like a bad idea in the first place. But hey, maybe everyone deserves each other.
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Nice. The man links to his own comment on moobunny that doesn't add ANY info on the posting he links to on ANN.
Why not just link to ANN in the first place?
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@Bill
I find it pretty amusing that you seem to think that the computer industry works totally different from the rest of the commercial industry.
First thing, support is always the responsibility of the person/company/entity that sold you a product and since MS never has sold me a product directly, it is never their responsibility to support me. Support is supposed to go through the retailer. Why else would they be allowed to add 30% on the price of a product?
Second, if you think that you can go and ask for a refund of the licence price, try to figure out what the licence cost really is. Cost is never a fixed number, it varies quite abit depending on volume. So, you will never be able to determine the cost of the non OEM part in that case.
regards,
Stefan
ps.
Regarding the superbundle, you said that Genesi owns the software. What???? Doesn't the superbundle contain lots of different software licenced from lots of different developers. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your logic doesn't work here imho.
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I just want to confirm that those who have already bought the AmigaONE DO have some kind of legaly biding document which states that they WILL recieve a copy of AmigaOS 4 free? Or was that not what they paid for, I'm really confused...
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@f94sbu
I find it pretty amusing that you seem to think that the computer industry works totally different from the rest of the commercial industry.
First thing, support is always the responsibility of the person/company/entity that sold you a product and since MS never has sold me a product directly, it is never their responsibility to support me. Support is supposed to go through the retailer. Why else would they be allowed to add 30% on the price of a product?
For getting the product into the hands of the user? To cover the costs of the administration involved in the retail operation, plus a profit margin for the retailer?
If you honestly think every retailer is responsible for giving first line technical support on every software product they sell you're totally mad. The costs involved would be astronomoical.
There is another issue you're all ignoring. First line support includes not only call vetting but problem ownership. Handling this is both time consuming and takes considerable manpower. Don't you realise how much companies that provide this service for the corporate sector charge their customers, and for limited periods? For the retail sector to do the same it would add at least $200 or so for every single software item sold, no matter what the original cost. Operating systems, because of their complexity, would be specialy prohibitive.
I honestly think most of you haven't got a clue as to what's involved in "first line support" for a product like this.
Second, if you think that you can go and ask for a refund of the licence price, try to figure out what the licence cost really is. Cost is never a fixed number, it varies quite abit depending on volume. So, you will never be able to determine the cost of the non OEM part in that case.
Like I said, the legal precedent already exists.
Regarding the superbundle, you said that Genesi owns the software. What???? Doesn't the superbundle contain lots of different software licenced from lots of different developers. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your logic doesn't work here imho.
Genesi supply the software. They are the publisher of the bundle. (If I said they owned the individual software copyrights then I apologise for being misleading, but I don't think I did). Therefore it is impossible to prove that they charge their customers for the bundle. In other words the theory would be that Genesi absorb any license costs and supply it to the user for free.
This is not the case with OEM's whose contracts with the software suppliers spells out that the vendors charge for it, specially when, as you say, the fee is closely tied to volume.
Look, let's let it go and agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me without far better researched arguments than you've come up with so far, and I keep having to repeat myself in replying to you. The thread is clearly going nowhere and should be put to rest now we've all had our say.
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Honestly, I don't know if things are just different in other countries (than the US) but the idea of a retailer providing technical support in most cases is absurd. Considering a retail chain can sell thousands of products, there's simply no way that can provide support for all those products. The only kind of support you should expect is a refund (where applicable) or exchanges. Anything else should go to the company that makes the product.
Even Microsoft supports their own products. (Before Microsoft pulled their contract, I used to work with a company that was contracted with Microsoft for their products.) If they expected retailers to support their products, they wouldn't bother providing support at all.
As far as markup, you're forgetting that the distributers get their chunk of the pie too.. The retailers aren't the only ones that add to the cost of the product on the consumer end.
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I think there is some confusion about OEM on here.
AmigaOS4 ( with the exception of Cyber/Blizzard versions ) is only
sold as OEM.
The industry practise is that the manufacturer bundles something together
with the product that is being OEM licensed and sells it under a brand.
Normally this means that the OEM licensee handles level one support
for the entire bundle ( in this case AOS4 and a PPC board ), level two
and level three support mechanisms are generally handled by the individual
component owners of the bundle.
So, L2 and L3 queries that were Teron related would go to Mai.
L2 and L3 queries that were OS4 related would go to Hyperion.
L2 and L3 queries that were driver related would go to the providers
of the drivers.
So, to recap,
The OEM license provides for bundling, and some level of responsibility
on the part of the licensee for marketing, support and costs.
The OEM licensee is actually the reseller - who has agreed to take on
the task of bundling and L1 support.
Of course in practise customers can still go direct but if it is a bundling
issue they are likely to be rebuffed to the OEM provider.
So all these comments about "hardware manufacturers" taking responsibilities
where they should not be is moot. It is the vendor/reseller/bundler or rather
the OEM licensee that takes ownership of L1 support for the entire
bundle.
So it seems to me that where people get hung up is when they fail
to differentiate between the entity that is the OEM bundler and the
entities that contribute to the bundle under OEM license. This is most
evident when someone that manufactures one component of the bundle
is also an OEM licensee for a bundle that includes one component.
So, in the case of Genesi, consider the hardware manufacturer to be
BPlan, the software provider to be Hyperion and the bundle to be a
combination of BPlan and Hyperion developed products sold under an
OEM license that allows combination of both where Genesi is the
OEM licensee for both components.
Those that issue the OEM license are well within their rights to
stipulate terms and conditions for the license. If the potential licensee
does not like the terms and conditions - then they don't have to become
an OEM licensee.
This is at least the way it works for IBM OEM agreements in both
directions.
-
I also just read Bills point about costs being astronomical. That is why
sometimes ( in fact more frequently here ) the support side
is "outsourced" back to the component provider for L1 support
( these things are always handled in the contracts ) at a fee. What
sometimes happens then ( and I know, I work next to a department that
does this ) is that a customised exchange number is set up on a
customer support line such that when a customer dials into that number
the call is flagged as say.... oh..... Fidelity Systems Support and
it is handled by the L1 support staff who answer the call with
"Welcome to Fidelity Systems Support", if another line number gets
used it is flagged as X then Y then Z.
The practicalities are seperable from the actual license you know and often
published OEM terms are merely a starting point for bargaining.
-
Oh and another thing, I called MicroSoft support for help with the
OEM version of WindowsXP that came with a packard bell I bought
for Julie and they said "Do you have a support ticket from Packard Bell?"
I said no.
They said "Ring Packard Bell on this number, or contact the shop where
you bought the equipment"
PC World in the UK hires a plethora of staff to help with L1 support
queries, Packard Bell provides L1 support for their Windows/PC OEM bundles
( which I went through and eventually found it was actually a packard
bell specific patch that was needed ).
So don't say it doesn't happen.
It might not be "fair" but it does happen.
-
@bhogget:
this situation is different because:
a)OS4 is not sold apart for AmigaOnes
b)If you don't want OS4 you can buy a LinuxOne
c)no one asks Apple a refund of OS X because you are going to run linux on your G5...
d)you don't buy a car and ask a refund for the radio if you aren't going to use it.
e) It's stupid to buy an AmigaOne if you don't plan going to use AmigaOS so the only reason you may want that is to PIRATE OS4.