Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Events => Topic started by: SWAUG on July 25, 2004, 02:40:29 PM
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We have placed the Garry Hare banquet speech on the SWAUG.org.uk website. In it is a very interesting announcement.
http://www.swaug.org.uk/amiwest2004-gh.php
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Interesting. Gotta make sure I listen to the interview tomorrow.
Oh, yeah, KMOS aquired Amiga, Inc. As in, Amiga, Inc. is now a whole owned subsidary of KMOS, Inc.
They also aquired another company. The name escapes me.
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They also aquired another company. The name escapes me.
Capacity Networks (http://www.capacitynetworks.com/) (flash site)
---edit---
BTW, an mp3 of the stream will be available at Intbase (http://intuitionbase.com/) when it's done uploading.
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KMOS aquired Amiga, Inc
:banana:
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I thank you for your effort, but sorry: but this is NOT by any means "a transcript" of what Gary Hare said lastnight.
A quick Synopsis or digest version YES!
I heard every utterance wispered, and this transcript of the above weblink is only a partial transcript (so far) of what he said in the speech.
...looking forward to the Total One.
Sincerely,
Joe Torre
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Any idea how much KMOS paid to acquire Amiga Inc?
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Off-topic, but I can't say I'm a fan of the site design at swaug.org.uk... I don't like having to make my browser window ultra-wide...
On the issue of the T-shirts and coupons..
The T Shirts went to be printed yesterday. I don't want to hear anything about these T Shirts again!
:-o :-)
(If that's true)
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Ok guys, I've just had to delete a tonne of posts. Once again we have this stupid situation where people argue on hearsay and claim it to be fact, and fanboys of various inclinations wanting to 'put the boot in'.
It's really childish.
Please don't start another discussion on this thread about 'legal issues'.
PS - If I had inadvertently deleted posts not to do with 'legal issues' that had nothing wrong with them, I am sorry, but lets just leave it at that.
PPS - Any further criticisms about my moderation technique should be made to me privately. Otherwise I might start to think that some people here just like the sound of their own voice. If you continue to make snide comments, I'll just suspend your accounts.
PPPS - Gelb and KennyR, don't make me suspend your accounts.
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Someone mentioned that the SWAUG posting was just a very terse summary and that not all posts were touched on (with no offense meant to SWAUG, of course) - any chance we could get a full transcript? Or is the rest just "fluff"?
TIA.
(BTW, Wayne, sorry for getting out of hand.)
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Mikey, KennyR, Gelb, and anyone else who wants to comment -- though I STRONGLY advise forethought and common sense.
Reading the deleted Amiga.org thread which is ILLEGALLY cross-posted to another site (remove it immediately), I can't say that I agree with the usual idiotic {bleep} armchair lawyer banter, nor -- in all fairness -- do I agree with the moderation in this particular instance.
I am truly offended to the comments made that this site is some way a "MorphOS zealot site". Amiga.org is first, primarily, and foremost a site supporting the AMIGA computer and it's community. That being said, we have always had an open door policy towards "compatible" systems and have always invited open discussion.
The fact is that I personally have absolutely zero interest in MorphOS nor the Pegasos, nor would I shed one single f'ing tear if the name Genesi was never, ever, mentioned on this site again. This is an AMIGA Web site. Those of you who know the story behind the way I feel don't need to ask. Those who don't, don't need to know.
I mean zero offense to MorphOS/Pegasos USERS, but if you cannot handle my personal thoughts on the matter, then you're on the wrong site, so allow me to suggest morphzone.org as an alternative place for your presence.
In any event, the FACT is that no one here really has any idea what's going on between the legal wrangling on the part of either company. We don't have to. We don't own the Amiga and outside of morbid curiousity and $50 t-shirts, we have absolutely zero vested interest.
Sitting here and arguing armchair legalities in a thread that has nothing to do with it indicates nothing but immature morons who like hearing themselves debate a point. Point in fact, debates require facts, and you have none.
While (in my opinion), the injection of Dr. Hare is a good thing for both morale and apparent integrity to the Amiga platform, historically neither the most recent incarnation of Amiga Inc nor Genesi has operated in anything even remotely resembling an honorable fashion, so let's just leave the legal {bleep} between the REAL lawyers.
Anything else other than the delivery of a real platform with a stable OS, regardless of it's intended use, is just smoke and mirrors and doesn't need to be discussed any further in ANY thread which doesn't specifically have to do with the legal issues between the two companies.
In short folks, this thread is about Garry's speech. Want to discuss ad nausem the legal issues between AI/KMOS and Genesi? Go to the forums. Otherwise, let's get back to the roots of SUPPORTING THE AMIGA.
Wayne
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Just for you B00tDisk, some of the "fluff" as you say has been put in. Check it out again at www.swaug.org
You must know that it was 5am in the morning here in the UK and tiredness kicked in so the text wasn't as long as it should be.
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SWAUG,
For what it's worth, I appreciate your efforts to bring forward what you have. Perhaps when you wake up, you might expand it a bit to make sure that others are satisfied as well.
Thanks for supporting the Amiga
Wayne
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We didn't mention that it was meant to be a "transcript", Joe.
The text was written at 5am in the morning here in the UK. Check www.swaug.org out again; it has been reedited with the benefit of 6 hours of sleep.
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Thank you Wayne.
It has now been expanded.
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From swaug (http://www.swaug.org.uk/amiwest2004-gh.php)
We will pay developer community to make applications.
Should make some people happy.
:-)
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Wow. I feel like I'm walking through a street full of burned out cars and debris, and I'm left wondering what carnage and mayham could have caused all this. I always miss out on the full stuff. heh.
Anyway, interesting article, or whatever. So once again the focus shifts back to the DE, is that it? The desktop OS (or shall I say, OS4) will be completed and released by the end of the year, but from what I can tell, there's no indication that there will ever be an OS4.1? I suppose it will all depend on how well it sells (if 100K copies sell in 6 months, they'd be ratarded not to continue development, but what are the chances of that?).
I also noticed no mention of Hyperion. Any word from Ben?
- Mike
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Goto our webpage ( www.swaug.org.uk ) and click on the Ben Hermans Amiwest Interview. In it he mentions the possibility of an update to OS 4
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@Glaucus
Go here (http://www.swaug.org.uk/amiwest2004-bh.php) ;-)
[edit]
SWAUG was a little bit fast.. I prefer my link tho :-D
[/edit]
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"but from what I can tell, there's no indication that there will ever be an OS4.1?"
I thought that, because most of what was going to be 4.1 is going into 4.0, that 4.1 was just going to be a bug fix boing bag.
My take on Garry's speech is that he wants to develop AmigaOS into a ultra fast, lean and stable OS. The Tao renegotiations speak volumes about the pivotal role intent will have in all this. Prepare for an AmigaOS running on VP!
I can't see any problem with any of this....
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Thanks guys, just checked out Ben's comments. Interestingly, he tells us that about 1000 pre-release CDs have been sold, and few mother boards remain to be sold. Anyone willing to take a guess as to what the profit margin is on each system? Think they make $50 per unit? If so, they'd have made no more then $50K net. Ouch.
I think OS4.0 will be far more useful once they get Petunia up and running fully, but the latest advancements in video drivers seems promising! I'm interested to see what the Fredan Bros consider to be "insperational".
- Mike
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My take on Garry's speech is that he wants to develop AmigaOS into a ultra fast, lean and stable OS. The Tao renegotiations speak volumes about the pivotal role intent will have in all this.
My take on it was that DE will interface with the "other devices" (phones, etcetera) while AmigaOS will serve as the link to the desktop, helping all these devices talk to one another. This in itself has not changed since 2000.
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I thought that, because most of what was going to be 4.1 is going into 4.0, that 4.1 was just going to be a bug fix boing bag.
Well, what I meant by OS4.1 was any future version at all. OS4.0++, if you catch my drift.
My take on Garry's speech is that he wants to develop AmigaOS into a ultra fast, lean and stable OS. The Tao renegotiations speak volumes about the pivotal role intent will have in all this. Prepare for an AmigaOS running on VP!
Well, that is an optimistic view. The pesimistic view would be that he really only cares about the VP, and realizes that AmigaOS 4.X isn't necessary for DE's success on the mobile market. Reality may be somewhere in between.
- Mike
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I completely agree with Wayne - esp these points:
The fact is that I personally have absolutely zero interest in MorphOS nor the Pegasos, nor would I shed one single f'ing tear if the name Genesi was never, ever, mentioned on this site again. This is an AMIGA Web site. Those of you who know the story behind the way I feel don't need to ask. Those who don't, don't need to know. .............
While (in my opinion), the injection of Dr. Hare is a good thing for both morale and apparent integrity to the Amiga platform, historically neither the most recent incarnation of Amiga Inc nor Genesi has operated in anything even remotely resembling an honorable fashion, so let's just leave the legal {bleep} between the REAL lawyers.
i read what appears to be Hare's talk and i was impressed with the lack of hoopla/BS/and over-the-top nonsense that has happened before at such occasions.
like:
I don't talk about product roadmaps or things that haven't happened yet.
and if this is true
We have made offers and hired some Amiga Inc employee
and if these people get paid, that means Hare puts his money where he mouth is.
and i've always believed that the future of computer technology was in hand-held devices (like phones) and that the AmigaOS was very suited to that! So, he's saying all the right things for me.
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Please don't start another discussion on this thread about 'legal issues'.
I may have partially accidentally instigated that topic - my excuse is I wasn't thinking as usual.
That always happens when I post on something like this - remind me to keep my mouth shut next time ;-)
Anyways, good to see an official announcement :-)
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Fredan Bros
The name's "Frieden", although the pronouncation is the same.
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My take on it was that DE will interface with the "other devices" (phones, etcetera) while AmigaOS will serve as the link to the desktop, helping all these devices talk to one another. This in itself has not changed since 2000.
Well, this is just as plausable as my scenario - we'll have to wait and see! :-)
Well, that is an optimistic view. The pesimistic view would be that he really only cares about the VP
Don't forget KMOS bought AmigaOS a year ago and have only just bought Ainc(AmigaDE). I'm sure that it's amigaOS that they are really keen on and now see intent as a way of getting it onto the various platforms. Obviously if intent was all they were after then they could have bypassed Amiga inc and signed with Tao, alone. But they must also have found the whole AmigaOS/AmigaDE/Intent thing quite compelling as an entity. Perhaps Bill McEwen and Fleecy made the pitch of their lives! :-)
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Ok guys, I've just had to delete a tonne of posts.
Just out of curiosity, what's the ratio of decent posts VS trolling posts? I doubt it's much different than any other platform discussion BBS.
let's get back to the roots of SUPPORTING THE AMIGA.
I'm not sure the commercial companies involved are much attuned to making a product with longetivity.
I'm waiting to see the product demonstrations of KMOS. If all they do is keep things a secret (ie, not opening a website), they're just as doomed as all the previous Amiga owners, no matter what grand ideas they may have.
Dammit, I don't want to hear any more about effeciency, small size, innovation, technical supiriority of PPC or otherwise, or any other such bull****. I want to see DE in action, and a full explanation of how it will solve the biggest problems with existing platforms, like security, usefulness, and maintenance.
Perhaps Bill McEwen and Fleecy made the pitch of their lives!
I wonder what happened to those two. I find it hard to believe those guys will ever work in the IT industry ever again.
Then again, I thought the same thing about Mehdi Ali, and he is very much alive, in a management position, and making obscene amounts of money despite his complete incompetence. Life sucks.
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I wonder what happened to those two. I find it hard to believe those guys will ever work in the IT industry ever again.
Today I listened to the audio from Harre's talk; Moss and McEwen are employees of the new company.
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Today I listened to the audio from Harre's talk; Moss and McEwen are employees of the new company.
Which only feeds the accusations that KMOS is not actually a new company at all. Same employees, same product, same kind of talk, same aims.
But just no debtors. Hmm.
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Moss and McEwen are employees of the new company.
Must've been part of the deal. Personally, I'd fire their sorry butts.
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Colin_Camper wrote:
The Tao renegotiations speak volumes about the pivotal role intent will have in all this.
I imagine Tao negotiations are needed for KMOS to supply AmigaDE to the Pegasos, if nothing else.
-- gary_c
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Amiga is in better hands than it has been in a long time.
I'm glad I drop in every once in a while to check in on the status of the amiga community.
I especially hope the amiga-owned developer site is invigorated...even though I wasn't reading a transcript..I hope its accurate my understanding of what I read, that they are going to finally make DE a product that people can buy without silly secret agreements....since most developers eschew such headaches.
I said it when KMOS was first announced, and I'll re-iterate it again, KMOS is the best thing to happen to Amiga.
personally I no longer consider myself an amigan, and I think they vastly exaggerate the 'developer' community around amiga, its diminished so much, that most people left are most definately not serious developers....
but, thats a minor criticism, of an overall great 'text' and good plan for the future.
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Reading recent comments I'd expect Ask Fleecy at Amiga.org soon. We are in the year 2000 again.
And I wonder.. everyone knows DE is dead. There are no developers anymore, there is no new software anymore, most of DE developers left or went for an A1.
(edited)
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@KennyR
>Which only feeds the accusations that KMOS is not actually a new company at all.
If I would employ Garda, I would become bplan?
>Same employees,
KMOS bought AmigaInc with AmigaDE. It is logical that they employ some AmigaInc people, unless they are going to waste everything AmigaInc is worth.
Read what Garry said before you post.
>same product, same kind of talk, same aims.
I see some differense in all of those.
>But just no debtors. Hmm.
Why not? I'm sure they are there. It seems KMOS is paying some of the unpaid debt already.
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"but from what I can tell, there's no indication that there will ever be an OS4.1?"
It's Hyperion's business. Read another interview.
@Colin_Camper
"I thought that, because most of what was going to be 4.1 is going into 4.0, that 4.1 was just going to be a bug fix boing bag."
That has never been the plan. New features have been planned in 4.1. Thing like reworked workbench, Warp3D Nova, etc... not sure about the current plan of the whole content.
(Ben Hermans mentioned some other things in his interview)
"My take on Garry's speech is that he wants to develop AmigaOS into a ultra fast, lean and stable OS."
Yes, something like that.
"The Tao renegotiations speak volumes about the pivotal role intent will have in all this."
AmigaDE is almost 100% unrelated to AOS plan.
I got the feeling that Garry is going to use AmigaDE developers to help to bring AOS forwards (AOS itself, not DE).
"Prepare for an AmigaOS running on VP!"
Never.
It would need to be the other way around.
- VP is not PowerPC, it's incompatible. It's a totally different kind of CPU.
- I'm pretty sure that AOS responsivenes&speed can not be fully reached if the CPU is not used natively. The use of that extreme virtualization would also make it impossible to take full advantage of HW acceleration (like 3D).
- VP/intent does not support memory protection (MP is planned for AOS4.x) it never will.
- I think not even AmigaInc was planning that AOS5 would run on top of VP.
etc, etc...
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Today I listened to the audio from Harre's talk; Moss and McEwen are employees of the new company.
where is the link for this, please.
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Interesting...
Unfortunately, I'm only remotely interested; it'e been too long. :-\
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@cecilia
mp3's of both the banquet speech and interview are available at Intuitionbase (http://www.intuitionbase.com/) and Amigaworld (http://www.amigaworld.net/)
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thanks, downloading now!
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Not sure what the state of VP is these days, but creating a complete OS based on the idea is exciting.
- VP is not PowerPC, it's incompatible. It's a totally different kind of CPU.
Yes, and what you'd need to do is create a low-level hardware interface that is basically the VP run-time engine. The OS would run on top of this. This way, the OS and all the apps would be translated to native PPC, Intel/AMD, MIPS, etc, on the fly.
I'm pretty sure that AOS responsivenes&speed can not be fully reached if the CPU is not used natively.
So what. CPU's these days are ridiculously fast. Do we really need a 3.5Ghz chip to surf the web? With chips like that, even a 50% hit in performance would still provide a very satisfying user experience (and I think VP can achieve far better then 50%).
The use of that extreme virtualization would also make it impossible to take full advantage of HW acceleration (like 3D).
3D graphics is tied to the video card, not the CPU. The VP engine would have nothing to do with this. Alti-vec, however, might pose a problem, but there might be ways around this as well.
VP/intent does not support memory protection (MP is planned for AOS4.x) it never will.
Perhaps we need to write a specialized VP system for the OS. Or perhaps, add it to the hardware interface and spawn a new VP instance for each application and keep them all in their own sandbox.
Anyway, I think it's technically possible, might require more resources then Amiga has right now. It would be the ideal system and making an OS that is binary compatible with the majority of systems out there would be a great advantage for the Amiga.
- Mike
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>Sitting here and arguing armchair legalities in a thread that has nothing to do with it indicates nothing but immature morons who like hearing themselves debate a point. Point in fact, debates require facts, and you have none.
Hi Wayne, welcome to the club. Have a seat in the front, please.
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Hi Wayne, welcome to the club. Have a seat in the front, please.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm just trying to slap a few hands which seems to be necessary now and again and to remind everyone that we're here to support the Amiga, not play armchair attorney.
Wayne
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Don't. Infact, it makes the best comedy watching the kids play lawyers. It's been endless fun for years now.
You know sh1t, I know sh1t, they know sh1t.. why just not lock the thread and we can move on ;-)
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If I wanted to mindlessly support the Amiga - even when it's WRONG - I wouldn't come here to do it, Wayne.
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Kenny, you're out of line.
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Hooligan,
This has gone on for far too long. If anything, the Amiga community (with a lot of help from the MorphOS/Pegasos community) has pretty much become an impediment to the Amiga's ability to market a real machine. Certain mouthy children are, in fact, an embarrassment to the memory of Jay Miner and the Amiga platform.
Wayne
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@Wayne
The name "Amiga" has been raped by executives in our community, but Jay Miner's memory stands still unharmed and is respected by very many people, including me.
Those certain mouthy children you mention, well, in my eyes they only make clowns of themselves.
LUCKILY it seems to be a hobby of only a few people, so not all is lost.
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@wayne
There is always the delete button. As I see it is very popular today.
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(*Sidesteps around sticky arguments*)
This may be a naive thing for me to say, but this looks like really quite nice news. If it had happened 5 years ago it would have been better, but the old saying "Better late than never" (and avoiding the sayings "Heard it all before" and "Too many cliches spoil the broth") may well ring true.
I simply hope that it means, from what the announcement looks like, that a talented development community will get the chance to produce something worthwhile, and maybe get paid for it this time.
Whatever the situation, I hope someone will knock it into bite-size chunks for me, and that www.amiga.com will get revamped.
But then, I fell for the iwin hoax. :-D
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And I wonder.. everyone knows DE is dead. There are no developers anymore, there is no new software anymore, most of DE developers left or went for an A1.
Heh. I couldn't even become a developer. Amiga Inc. must have been on vacation when I bought my SDK.
If I would employ Garda, I would become bplan?
No, but if you shuffle his debts and contractual obligations to avoid forclosure...
I haven't reached any conclustions on KMOS. I was happy when they announced they had bought OS4. But, when they announced they had bought ALL of Amiga Inc., well AFTER buying OS4, that's just too fishy for me. I'm in agreement with KennyR (at least to a point).
Yes, and what you'd need to do is create a low-level hardware interface that is basically the VP run-time engine. The OS would run on top of this.
I'm all for writing apps and libraries, and maybe even drivers on a VP engine, but the idea of writing an OS and other low-level parts in VP is pretty scary. Tools like the shell, for example, should be in VP. The kernel and low-level drivers should always be native -- hardware access is what they're supposed to handle.
Again, it's important to distinguish between the kernel and the OS. The kernel is what provides the interface to the hardware and the low-level drivers, the OS consists of the tools, shell, GUI, and high-level drivers.
So what. CPU's these days are ridiculously fast.
It's not so much the speed. Try doing to a CPU what DirectX did for graphics cards. That's the point of VP.
Ironic. Didn't the Amiga pioneer the concept of coprocessors? Why do you think APIs like OpenGL exist? When the were first introduced, they just added overhead. Today, APIs are essential for coprocessing, hardware acceleration, and architecture independence. Funny how slow the CPU world has been to adapt the practices of the graphics industry. The Intel monopoly is a big factor.
The use of that extreme virtualization would also make it impossible to take full advantage of HW acceleration (like 3D).
Full advantage, yes, but that's like comparing assembly to C. There's pros and cons for tryint to take full advantage of the hardware.
Personally, I think if you make a good architecture, performance will just fall into place. Write your software normally and let VP and/or the compiler worry about the rest. People obsess way too much over performance.
In the long run, optimization might actually reduce performance, too. But, I won't get into how that works. :-)
VP/intent does not support memory protection (MP is planned for AOS4.x) it never will.
My presumption is that each thread will have its own independent VP hook, so the underlying OS handles memory protection. If all VP threads share a single VP thread, then that's a very bad idea.
Maybe cell phones don't need memory protection if they run 1-2 processes, but when they start to multitask and run hundreds of threads, the need for memory protection will become obvious. Are we retrograding to the days of MS-DOS and Classic Macintosh?
The name "Amiga" has been raped by executives in our community, but Jay Miner's memory stands still unharmed and is respected by very many people, including me.
Keep in mind that the millions of the people who really made the Amiga special are long gone. Only the hundreds of totally obsessed fanatics remain. That's why I don't like the choice to use PPC. I think most people who have converted to x86 would agree that a $200 PC mobo is a much better value than an old $800 PPC board, and my P4 is reliable and dead silent, too.
And, yes... I'll stop talking about CPUs. Nobody really cares anymore.
There is always the delete button. As I see it is very popular today.
I don't argue with the admins, but I wish whoever was deleting posts would just edit them down to a placefiller, instead.
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I haven't reached any conclustions on KMOS. I was happy when they announced they had bought OS4. But, when they announced they had bought ALL of Amiga Inc., well AFTER buying OS4, that's just too fishy for me.
i heard the interview with Hare where he says they hired Fleecy and McEwen.
not really sure what that means, but it's possible that they were hired to sweep the office floors and wash the windows.
ya never know! :-o
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>Keep in mind that the millions of the people who really made the Amiga special are long gone. Only the hundreds of totally obsessed fanatics remain. That's why I don't like the choice to use PPC. I think most people who have converted to x86 would agree that a $200 PC mobo is a much better value than an old $800 PPC board, and my P4 is reliable and dead silent, too.
Of course they are cheaper.. but you don't wanna be one of THEM, do you ;-)
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> heard the interview with Hare where he says they hired Fleecy and McEwen.
not really sure what that means, but it's possible that they were hired to sweep the office floors and wash the windows.
> ya never know!
Yes we do. We saw the results already, didn't we?
There is a saying that everybody deserves a second chance... moss and mcewen has consumed more than that.. and then some.
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i heard the interview with Hare where he says they hired Fleecy and McEwen.
not really sure what that means, but it's possible that they were hired to sweep the office floors and wash the windows.
ya never know! :-o
:lol:
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@Glaucus
>Not sure what the state of VP is these days, but creating a complete OS based on the idea is exciting.
There are some realitities that describe it as "not optimum" in various issues.
>>- VP is not PowerPC, it's incompatible. It's a totally different kind of CPU.
>Yes, and what you'd need to do is create a low-level hardware interface that is basically the VP run-time engine.
>The OS would run on top of this.
It is not sensible to run all of the OS on top of VP.
>This way, the OS and all the apps would be translated to native PPC, Intel/AMD, MIPS, etc, on the fly.
But the OS and all of the apps would need to pe ported to another CPU first, the VP CPU.
Ask Hyperion if they are willing to do it...
>>I'm pretty sure that AOS responsivenes&speed can not be fully reached if the CPU is not used natively.
>So what. CPU's these days are ridiculously fast. Do we really need a 3.5Ghz chip to surf the web? With chips like that, even a 50% hit in performance would still provide a very satisfying user experience (and I think VP can achieve far better then 50%).
50% hit in performance would kill AmigaOS and me (because I would be so ashamed and disgusted).
And for house heating I'm going to use other, better means already.
IMO, one of the basic ideas of AOS is to be more efficiant than others.
One of KMOS intentions is to use AOS in some embedded use. 3.5 Ghz CPU does not fit in embedded use.
>>The use of that extreme virtualization would also make it impossible to take full advantage of HW acceleration (like 3D).
>3D graphics is tied to the video card, not the CPU. The VP engine would have nothing to do with this.
If 3D drivers are run on top of VP, it cuts off some of the performance.
If the whole 3D system is virtualized as "GVP" (GraphicsVirtualProcessor?), the efficiency of low-level Warp3D can not be reached. And every thime there appears new Graphic processor, the GVP would need to be rewritten.
Again. IMO: we should outperform Wintel rather than be slower on purpose.
For audio & pleasant sound experience, near "real time OS" performance is required.
etc...
(High level OS things could be run on top VP, but none of the low-lewel OS things. U C, there are reasons why intent requires a HOST OS on almost everywhere.)
>Alti-vec, however, might pose a problem, but there might be ways around this as well.
Right.
IIRC, not even the FPU "problem" is solved yet. Intent FPU is slow.
The way around altivec is that VP does not have altivec, and I'm sure it never will have any good SIMD VP unit.
I think making a SIMD VP would be totally insane attempt. (intent gives the possibility to use native executables amongs VP ones, perhaps that could be used...)
>>VP/intent does not support memory protection (MP is planned for AOS4.x) it never will.
>Perhaps we need to write a specialized VP system for the OS.
It has taken about 13 years for TAO to bring the VP to the current level. I doubt it would be sensible to try top outperform them in a few years time...
>Or perhaps, add it to the hardware interface and spawn a new VP instance for each application and keep them all in their own sandbox.
Hmmm... I wonder where the OS would reside then.
>Anyway, I think it's technically possible, might require more resources then Amiga has right now.
In the end....
I think at some point AOS5 would have been a HW banging OS (with MP etc, for limited set of 64bit CPU motherboards, etc.) that seamlessly runs some parts of it and some applications on top of VP(s).
It should have been possible ... the rest is history.
Let's focus on one thing at a time. All energy to get the initial AOS4.0 out first.
>It would be the ideal system and making an OS that is binary compatible with the majority of systems out there would be a great advantage for the Amiga.
IMO: AOS would not perform like AOS should if it is run on top of virtual machine.
Why would we need a OS that is binary compatible with everything? ((I hope not just to be the first one at any cost?))
What if PPC already (or tomorrow at least) can be put everywhere?
Isn't it enough if we have applications that can be run on any system out there? (intent and AmigaDE apps)
(And at the same time applications that run best on AOS.)
(I'm sure after the workbench is rewritten for AOS4.1, it will be possible to have identical looking user interface running on AmigaDE.)
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Dudes, I was at Amiwest, and I think there was a lot of discussion that was not recorded between the audience and Garry.
I just woke up after getting home from my 11 hour trip from Sacramento. Arrgh Madness. Never EVER go Greyhound. Lost my baggage and all. Had to ride next to fat snoring Bubba for most of the trip too in a rickety old bus with kiddy size seats. I shoulda flown. I don't know what posessed me. Anyhoooo.
Garry wants to use A1s in the set-top boxes obviously, and these will act as conduits for wireless content (EXACTLY LIKE I"VE BEEN SAYING FOR THE LAST MONTH) to any devices, be they PCs or PDAs. The initial plan was obviously to leverage OS4 to deliver content that would take the form of movies, thus Garry talking to Hollywood production companies and telcos. He told them how his new technology aids them in terms of speeding up broadband delivery via the internet. Now, as I pointed out in MY numerous posts over the last month, he obviously saw (LIKE ME) that movies and video are not enough, and he wanted to deliver software to a variety of plaforms wirelessly as well, but with the compatability problems that would be difficult. In that regard, when he said in an earlier interview that AmigaDE was not required to deliver his solution to a customer, he was right. AmigaDE is the icing on the cake.
It was obvious(TO ME AT LEAST) that AmigaDE would solve that software compability dilemma. As we all know, if you write AmigaDE software it will be compatable with every platform, it will gain developers, and therefore we will have more software available for the OS4 platform. It is no different from porting, except it is much easier. Apps and Games written in AmigaDE will scale between PDAs, set-top boxes, consoles and Desktops!!!! More platforms, means more opportunities for developers to make money.
We simply can't get huge game releases the like of consoles, unless they're ports, so something, no matter how simple, is better than nothing, and things can only improve, as they do for any software platform. Hyperion and others will still produce OS4 native games that will blow us away. In fact Ben(Hyperion) hinted they were working on something special that will rejuvinate the platform, and give the Amiga community a bout of confidence and that we'd be cheering. Wouldn't it be lovely, if they ported the latest Halo. Hmmmm.
I asked Garry about making the AmigaDE player free and he said that Tao wouldn't allow it although he thought it was in their best interests. He said there was some way of getting around it, but didn't care to comment. The only way I can see around it is to precompile for the target platform on the server and then deliver it over the internet.
On top of this, the Amiga set-top boxes will act as wireless routers and automatically save and secure(encrypt?) data that doesn't fit on your desktop hard disk. Amigas will become synonymous with speedy content delivery, to a variety of platforms wirelessly, and network data security for the home initially, and perhaps later for Small to Medium businesses.
Garry most certainly wants to port OS4 to other platforms apart from the A1. He sees that portability and small footprint as key and the reason he bought the OS in the first place. Apparently there are many PPC enabled devices out there that could be targetted at the right time. He did not say he was porting AOS4 to AmigaDE. He was reluctant to say that he was locked into only keeping OS4 on A1 as though it was not politically correct and he did not want to emphasise it. He kinda dodged the question and said all current agreements would be honoured and that he would not announce anything else at this time. I think he commented that he wanted OS4 ported to a PDA AND SOON!!!! I think a console port would be tremendous and I predict it will happen (I've been right so far). HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL DEVICES THAT RUN AMIGAOS4 CAN BE BADGED AS AN AMIGA!!!!
GARY ALSO SAID THAT THE NEW AMIGA DE VERSION WILL BE AVAILABLE IN WEEKS AND THAT WE WILL BE BLOWN AWAY AT THE IMPROVEMENTS. I am soooooo going to puchase the new SDK. I'll have written an Amiga compatable app BEFORE I even have OS4. Now, how is this a bad thing? It is unrealistic to believe that your average joe is going to be attracted to the Amiga because of the apps, but rather the way OS4 operates and its other benefits. If software is ubiquitous it aids AmigaOS4. Thus writing AmigaDE apps does not in any way hurt the Amiga platform, and in fact leverages all existing platforms as targets, thus attracting developers who have always complained that the Amiga market is not big enough. Compatability between platforms is the holy grail. Hopefully, AmigaDE wont fail in compatability and performance the way Java is perceived to.
What else did he say? Ah, I asked Garry about porting OpenOffice and he kinda bauked, until I mentioned a browser in the same sentence, and he went off on how a world class browser was of great importance and how it is likely that he will pay for a port. Of course, he wont get the Amizilla bounty, because it'll be OS4 only!!!!
What else?? Errr... Oh, he has no plans right now to change the KMOS name to Amiga Inc, especially as the obscurity kinda assists in the licensing of further technology or the aquisition of other companies. (My vote is for renaming KMOS as Commodore but I doubt it will happen, but then who guessed KMOS would buy AmigaInc? Oh, and stop being pessimistic about the Commodore name!!! It'd be GREAT. The family reunited. If people don't remember the Amiga they sure as hell remember the C64, the best selling microcomputer of all time. The name Commodore, has far from a negative connotation in the mainstream audience)
When asked about purchasing Tao he said they had been in discussions for a week and that the best he could do is get them to agree to forging a stategic alliance that does not have either of them stepping on eachother's toes(my words).
What else? Oh, I asked Ben(Hyperion) about an OS4 port to the Transmeta devices, that could theorietically be modified to function as PPCs. He said it was not the way to go. Not sure I agree, but OK. Those Crusoe devices are getting incredibly small, powerful and SLICK.
Hey, did any of you know that Hyperion worked on the 3d routines for Intent? Ben told me.
I think it was mentioned at the Banquet, but if not, here it is,
OS4 being a closed source platform is actually more appealing to companies. This may be due to security concerns(Security through Obscurity as Ben put it), and ALSO Garry said that companies practically always mentioned how worried they were over the SCO litigation with Linux.
Hmmm. Any questions? After the show, I felt confident in Amiga's future and Amiga Inc's direction. I felt like it was soooo clear, but maybe I heard something you guys did not. So shoot me a question, and I'll let you know if it was discussed off the recording.
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It is not sensible to run all of the OS on top of VP.
True. Unfortunately, people still see an "OS" as a monolithic platform, so nobody with tecnical experience will explain which parts should be native and which should be VP to ordinary people. Most still think web browsers are part of the OS.
Again. IMO: we should outperform Wintel rather than be slower on purpose.
Does that explain why Java has exploded in popularity? That's about as sluggish and glitchy as you can get!
You also have to figure that Windows programmers aren't exactly concerned about reliablity, and most low-level drivers are so hell-bent on performance, there's little we can do to compete. Do you think any Amiga graphics drivers can go up against the likes of nVidia or ATI? They pour millions of dollars into making those drivers as fast as possible, and everything runs as close to the hardware as possible in kernel mode. Poke fun at Windows all you want, but most drivers are designed to slice through the bloat and get as close to the hardware as possible. I doubt you can exceed the performance of Windows in many ways.
For audio & pleasant sound experience, near "real time OS" performance is required.
Realtime has nothing to do with speed. It has to do with latency. Doom3 is doing all its sound mixing in software with the CPU, instead of using the hardware features of, for example, Audigy cards. Why waste CPU cycles to do that? For one thing, you can mix it just as you like, instead of limiting yourself to the capabilities of the hardware.
Unless it comes to games, most people don't care about performance except on paper. Responsiveness counts.
I'm starting to hate using that word, though. Responsiveness has become a major buzz word as of late, but nobody really seems to know what it means. Fast screen refreshes in OS4 is only a small part of the whole story.
IIRC, not even the FPU "problem" is solved yet. Intent FPU is slow.
I thought they were allowing you to use native "tools" to optimize your code, and only force VP if no optimized tools were available? I know little about FP, though, other than the fact that each CPU has different levels of accuracy and will return unpredictable numbers.
I think making a SIMD VP would be totally insane attempt. (intent gives the possibility to use native executables amongs VP ones, perhaps that could be used...)
Yeah, that's the tools I was talking about. Any programmer who wants to release code on multiple systems MUST break down the critical stuff into native code, and use generic alternatives as a last resort.
The problem is, many do no bother. Even Perl scripts are not always portable because people keep using home-made routines using symlinks and UNIX shell calls, instead of using proper libraries. It shocks me how many people still try to parse CGI data themselves instead of using CGI.pm!
IMO: AOS would not perform like AOS should if it is run on top of virtual machine.
That depends what parts of it are running on a virtual machine. A VP CLI and GUI would make little difference in terms of performance if the graphics drawing routines are still native.
As we all know, if you write AmigaDE software it will be compatable with every platform
Potential to be compatible? IMO there is no such thing as a fully portable application. There's always some nut that wants to screw everything up. Hell, we can't even get webpages to look the same in every browser!
I think DE should offer a set of generic and native tools and let the developer decide what to use. If they want to enjoy the profit margin of many different markets, they'll have to program accordingly. If they need ultra performance on a particular CPU, there should be nothing to prevent them from using native code. That's what I don't like about Java. Write Once Run Everywhere is a dream that doesn't exist. Java is notorious for cross-platform bugs, which makes me wonder why everyone likes it so damn much.
On top of this, the Amiga set-top boxes will act as wireless routers and automatically save and secure(encrypt?) data that doesn't fit on your desktop hard disk
Funny how they don't call them file servers anymore. They're all set-top boxes.
HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL DEVICES THAT RUN AMIGAOS4 CAN BE BADGED AS AN AMIGA!!!!
Well, at least someone realized that the Amiga is not just about slick hardware...
I am soooooo going to puchase the new SDK
Don't you want to see the product, first? The first SDK was simply horrible - very raw and terribly organized.
Those Crusoe devices are getting incredibly small, powerful and SLICK
Do they have native instructions, now, or are they still only emulating x86? Code morphing is still a major performance hog, and I haven't heard of how good Transmeta processors are working native.
OS4 being a closed source platform is actually more appealing to companies.
True. If you have no legal right to make changes to the code, there's really no point in having it open source, as it'll probably take just as long as a closed source product for fixes to be implemented.
Oh yeah, and open source does not mean fewer bugs. Fewer bugs are because of the dedication of the developers and their debugging techniques. I can give you a long, long list of open source projects that are swamped with bugs -- seeing how the developers are all on vacation and I always end up having to fork the code into my own, new project just to fix all the damn problems!
Security through Obscurity as Ben put it
I won't raise my opinion on that comment again (as my last post got deleted). I will say he'll have to do much, much better than that. Security is not magic, as any script writer will tell you, and as we move to more virtualized processors running on dynamicly compiled or translated code, security will start becoming a very, very big problem.
As an example, I still see people doing lots of evals in their Perl code, such as:
$val = <<...something which includes CGI input...
EOF
eval( $var, {...} );
These people are insane! Never, ever use eval except to force run-time compilation to improve performance.
I felt like it was soooo clear, but maybe I heard something you guys did not.
I want to see a working prototype. If they need investor money, they're not getting it from me buying an SDK.
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"Security through Obscurity as Ben put it"
That's what we have today, and VirusZ. :-P
Even though that "obscurity" security migh outperform any WIntel security solution that exist today, I'm sure KMOS and Hyperion knows that it's only the beginning.
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I've just come back from a weekend in Prague (fantastic city by the way) and I've been catching up on all the excitement from Amiwest! I have some mixed thoughts about it all though, and I think Garry's speech and Q&A session has raised as many new questions as he's answered.
Colin_Camper mentioned that they thought we'd see a version of AmigaOS running on VP. I think this is possible, but unlikely: Garry has mentioned the PPC version of Intent, and we already know that KMOS must port AmigaDE to the Pegasos, so it is my belief that we'll see a version of AmigaDE running on OS4/AmigaOne. Colin_Camper could be right of course - perhaps OS4 will be ported to run on top of AmigaDE. But AmigaDE must then run on something else.... this scenario (3 systems on top of each other) seems impractical for mobile devices and defeats Garry's unique selling points of small & fast, technically it is unlikely, and from a market point of view it makes no sense either to rely on a third party product while offering a similar service as that third party product.
So this brings us onto the topic of how will AmigaOS run on mobile devices without VP? The answer is simple, and is the same reason why the whole AmigaDE idea is flawed: almost every mobile device uses the same CPU. Symbian only works on one CPU. I'll repeat: Symbian is huge, it's massively widespead across billions of devices yet only works on ARM. There is no port for any other platform. Fleecy himself brought this everything-uses-ARM point up years ago in an article I read and mentioned it was a threat to AmigaDE, whose USP was based on the mobile world being multiplatform - sorry I don't have time to seek it out.
Anyway, now we know that we don't need AmigaDE to run on a huge variety of devices, it brings us to one logical conclusion - that AmigaOS will be ported to ARM. We know that OS4 has employed good design practice and has a HAL so it's quite easy to port to other platforms without any big upheavals. The questions that remain therefore, is how do the teams at Hyperion and KMOS fit together? Who will do the ARM port? Who will develop the higher levels of OS4 further? Will priorities mean that OS4 development slows or loses out in favour of development that will make the system more scalable?
Also unrelated but interesting. Will the ARM port gain greater focus than the PPC version?
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"....that AmigaOS will be ported to ARM."
To a yet another little endian CPU?
"We know that OS4 has employed good design practice and has a HAL so it's quite easy to port to other platforms without any big upheavals."
It would break binary compatibility, unless that's why KMOS now sees intent to be important alongside AOS.
"The questions that remain therefore, is how do the teams at Hyperion and KMOS fit together? Who will do the ARM port? Who will develop the higher levels of OS4 further? Will priorities mean that OS4 development slows or loses out in favour of development that will make the system more scalable?"
Reality is that the desktop niche most likely would not be enough anyway. So AOS needs to scale.
"Also unrelated but interesting. Will the ARM port gain greater focus than the PPC version?"
I think there will not be ARM port of AOS in near future.
ARM is not needed. ARM or Xscale is not scaleable and powerfull enough. Today PowerPC fits in "bigger than PDA" sized products (mobile even) and PPC cores are not that much harder to embed. Tomorrow... we'll see.
And I'm pretty sure that KMOS is not stupid enough to go against Symbian&friends with their own cell phone OS, only M$ is.
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It would break binary compatibility, unless that's why KMOS now sees intent to be important alongside AOS.
If they want to run on mobile devices (as Garry has plainly said) then the only other option would be to port AmigaOS to Intent. But Intent is no operating system, it must be hosted. So running AmigaOS on Intent on the host's OS on the hardware doesn't seem "small and fast"...
I think there will not be ARM port of AOS in near future.
ARM is not needed. ARM or Xscale is not scaleable and powerfull enough. Today PowerPC fits in "bigger than PDA" sized products (mobile even) and PPC cores are not that much harder to embed. Tomorrow... we'll see.
ARM is more than suitable for mobile devices. That's why Nokia, Ericsson, Panasonic & co are using it right now to run SymbianOS on their devices.
Symbian has practically a monopoly on the mobile device market - almost all of these devices sold uses ARM processors, there is no reason why this would change in the future.
Compaq isn't going to start producing computers with PowerPC because it doesn't run the OS everyone uses (Windows).
Just like Nokia isn't going to start producing PowerPC phones, because it doesn't run the OS everyone uses (Symbian).
If you want to make a new OS to run on mobile devices, then it must run on ARM.
And I'm pretty sure that KMOS is not stupid enough to go against Symbian&friends with their own cell phone OS, only M$ is.
From reading the speech and the interview, this seems to be exactly what KMOS is doing! I'm as dubious as you are about how successful they can be....
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Guys, where the hell are you getting that AOS4 is going to be, or even should be ported to ARM? AmigaDE will most likely be ported to ARM but not OS4. And do you really think they're going to be able to go from PPC AOS to an Intent AOS just like that(snaps fingers). C'mon, get a grip. We'll count ourselves lucky if AOS makes it to another PPC platform, mobile or otherwise.
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ARM
Well, I'm not sure any processor is going to hold a monopoly seeing how practically everything written for cell phones these days is done with Java. My brother-in-law works for Nokia, and Java is pretty much the only language they use.
It'd be much easier to overtake Symbian on PDAs than to displace Windows on the PC. I don't follow the PDA scene, but what about TabletPC and PocketPC? Those don't run on ARM, do they?
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Here's my take on what they should do with Amiga OS and Amiga DE. First it's all about the app. An os is nothing with out a reason to run it. I've got a great peice of hardware in my A4000 but with nothing to run on it I might as well throw it away. We all know that the OS enables to the hardware, we all know that applications are why we use computers.
So look at all the applications for the Palm pilot. There are 10's of thousands of them, some good some bad but they all suffer one major flaw, they only work on the Palm. Look at Symbian Series 60, hundreds of apps with the same flaw. Look at UIQ, pocket PC, MacOS X, Windows. Each of them has their applications and all those application only run on their system. Sure you can emulate but we all know how well that works.
It was for this reason that Intent, Java, Brew and things like app forge where born. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Hell C was designed to solve this problem too. It's evident from the market today that no technology was truly won. Certainly java is popular but have you used a java application on a UIQ device? My god it sucks. if intent lives up to the claims that Bill McEwen and Flecy have been making for it you would think they have a winner. I know I've not mentioned the Amiga OS, I'm getting there. So lets say we have an application and really there are applications and then there are applications. My AIM client is just as much an application as lightwave. Photoshop and notepad. See a trend. There are a certain class of applications which lend them selfs to be small and there are applications which need to be big, in some cases freaking huge (#? office anyone?) My point is it might make sence to have a text editor for Amiga DE but it might not make sense to have Open Office. So how do you design a product that lets you get a peice of all this action, the mobile space and the desktop space? How do you build a system that allows users to do what they want and more importantly willing to pay for? A system that allows applications to run everywhere when needed but allows desginers to use the power only a desktop can afford?
You sell both. You sell a desktop type system and you sell a mobile type system. You sell Amiga OS and Amiga DE. Amiga DE should always have the ability to run on a whole bunch of things, Intent allows that. More importantly is that TAO pays to make sure Intent runs on everything and Amiga gets to use it. Amiga OS on the other hand can be more restrictive on the hardware side. There can be reference designs and certain requirements about chip sets and whatnot and still make it small and fast. Maybe in the near future desktop is really settop. But my point is this. Take ComCast cable in the US. Very large company lots of money to spend. Call them up. "Hey ComCast, what makes you the most money?", ComCast might say "We make a killing on this PPV stuff, it's great!". Garry says "Cool, I hear your looking to sell more if it, think having a system that let users view PPV from almost any device in their house would help you sell it?". ComCast responds "What kind of devices? thinks like laptops and windows?". Garry smiles and saids "Actually our delivery system works with tons of cellphones, tablets, laptops, desktops. Hell we don't even require windows, this thing just runs. It's a great system. We've got a settop box which handles all the billing, delivery, data management and allows you to fully customize it. It can even browse the web and send email". ComCast replys "Hm, you busy tomorrow? We should talk".
In my little story the Settop is an Micro-AmigaOne with AmigaOS and Intent+DE runing on whatever with a client application.
That's just one option. But face it, if Amiga/KMOS/Who ever's business plan is to sell you to and I we are doomed. It's going to take 10's of millions of dollars to get the Amiga to a state where it can compete against Windows and just is not worth it yet. If they can get ComCast to trial the system I described it would move 10's of thousands of units, if they brought it we are talking millions of boxes.
It makes sense to me ;p
Bill "tekmage" Borsari
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>>It would break binary compatibility, unless that's why KMOS now sees intent to be important alongside AOS.
>If they want to run on mobile devices (as Garry has plainly said) then the only other option would be to port AmigaOS to Intent.
"mobile devices" covers huge set of devices, not just cell phones as we know them.
And I think KMOS is not stupid enough to try to push AmigaOS to current cell phones with current processors.
Especially, there's absolutely no room for AOS on symbian devices (no physically or otherwise).
After a few more thoughts: ARM CPU is a minor thing in the whole mobile space.
> But Intent is no operating system, it must be hosted. So running AmigaOS on Intent on the host's OS on the hardware doesn't seem "small and fast"...
Absolutely.
>ARM is more than suitable for mobile devices. That's why Nokia, Ericsson, Panasonic & co are using it right now to run SymbianOS on their devices.
>Symbian has practically a monopoly on the mobile device market - almost all of these devices sold uses ARM processors, there is no reason why this would change in the future.
You are talking about cell phones. There is no room for AmigaOS on any symbian devices. AmigaOS can not target Symbian devices.
(And companies you mentioned do a lot more than just cell phones, just a side note, but anyway. All of them already use and are familiar with PowerPC.)
ARM cores are integrated in phone media/telecom chips. Also MIPS and PowerPC cores are possible to be integrated if SymbianOS (binaries) is not used. If binaries are not used, there's no absolute must to use ARM either, and especially so with the enterntainment chip of the device. (phone stuff and JAVA stuff run in separate spaces, often on separate CPU/MPU)
> there is no reason why this would change in the future.
I think there is no reason for a cell phone to switch to AmigaOS. It would need to be something new...
>Compaq isn't going to start producing computers with PowerPC because it doesn't run the OS everyone uses (Windows).
Right.
>Just like Nokia isn't going to start producing PowerPC phones, because it doesn't run the OS everyone uses (Symbian).
Right.
Except that Nokia can get Symbian ported to any CPU, most (user) apps run on top of JAVA anyway.
And there is also no reason for Nokia to use AmigaOS.
And there is no absolute reason to use the bulk chip from philips that a lot of smaller companies use.
Asian market and asian cell phone manufacturers might have other interests, though... (there are those who do not use WinCE or Symbian, tens of millions of phones, etc.)
(I wonder what CPU does MyOrigo use (another phone, intent based, with Finnish origins) .... perhaps ARM, though, as one can buy cell phone chip with ARM from the local shop, grocery shop even.)
>If you want to make a new OS to run on mobile devices, then it must run on ARM.
If you plan to reflash Nokia (etc) cell phones to use AmigaOS, then yes. In practice it's impossible to make business with it.
Also. Several phones use more than one CPU. There might be one handling the phone side and some other handling PDA/enterntainment side.
>>And I'm pretty sure that KMOS is not stupid enough to go against Symbian&friends with their own cell phone OS, only M$ is.
>From reading the speech and the interview, this seems to be exactly what KMOS is doing! I'm as dubious as you are about how successful they can be....
Hmmm... Garry did mentione phone use several times. I thought it was mainly as an example and (only) as a one possible client/user of their mediasystem.
But ok. I'm not sure any more. It would need to be some new device, some new comer from asia perhaps, most likely not for European(/rest of the world) standards...
The competition is hard. Companies work heavily to try to differentiate from the rest as their advantage, find new sub niches perhaps, without loosing the mainstream.
I can not see how KMOS could gain any signifficant ground there... not anytime soon ... only remotely possible would be companies outside WindowsCE and Symbian users. How many there is? How big are their markets?
Interesting.
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PocketPC? Those don't run on ARM
Yes, it does. StronARM and Xscale...