Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: ikir on April 12, 2004, 06:56:19 PM
-
"The HTML procedure that will be included on the Amiga OS4 developer pre-release CD for the AmigaOne has been given to Amigaworld.net for viewing here.
The procedure is simple to follow and will walk users of all experience levels through the painless task of installing the developer pre-release on to an AmigaOne."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1378
From AmigaWorld.net
-
To everyone involved .... well done :-D
---------------
redfox
-
A reminder, this is not the end, it is still but the beginning. A first public beta.
-
Yes, the date must be getting closer... I hope. I really can't wait. I just hope there'll be something in my hands by mid August - I really want to have my AmigaOne at college with me for the fall!
Best wishes and thanks to the OS4 team!
My completely groundless release date prediction: April 29 - 10th anniversary of Commodore's demise.
-
What a beautiful firmware upgrade procedure they have :)
-
A reminder, this is not the end, it is still but the beginning. A first public beta.
And its not that public its not even released i remember when it was going to be released for christmas microsoft will have longhorn out before this at the rate it is going.
-
@ Neko
So? I have no problem with it. Maybe the problem is that you work for genesi? I don't know
:lol:
-
Considering that Amigans can have trouble unpacking a tar.gz or installing samba, updating the firmware looks tough. At least it's well described.
And I don't work for Genesi, ikir, and it still looks messy and horrible to me.
-
What firmware updates are notably "nice"?
On Windows it is extremely rare to have a firmware update procedure that doesn't involve booting into DOS/a DOS disk. I don't know if Macs even "do firmware updates".
-
Poster: mikeymike Posted: 2004/4/13 1:33:06
What firmware updates are notably "nice"?
Switching kickstarts?
(when I think about it it wasn´t really that nice, risking putting a screwdriver through the motherboard or bent romlegs)
-
Last time I updated a bios, it froze in the middle and had to send in the chip. Oh, what fun.
-
You could have left out the Genesi comment. Just ask him why the sarcastic remark or why he seems to have a problem with the proceedure. Let's not have any of this Red Troll, Blue Troll crap. I been done to death and will not be tolerated. Thank you. Just a reminder from your friendly neightborhood moderator.
-
I don't know if Macs even "do firmware updates".
Some do indeed, I had a couple to do on my iMac 400 before installing the newer versions of OSX. It involves doubleclicking the firmware update app, which shuts the mac down, and then holding down the programmer's interrupt button on the side while turning it back on.
The firmware updater immediately takes over, installs, then resets once more to boot with the new firmware installed.
It's -relatively- simple :)
dana
-
@Neko,
What a beautiful firmware upgrade procedure they have :)
You're right! It's at least as nice or nicer than what I have on the Biostar Athlon box sitting next to my AmigaOne. (What?? Oh, he was being sarcastic?? )
Oh, never mind . . .
Paul
-
A manual without a product. Now *that* is original! :-D
Apart from the horrible firmware update procedure, the OS looks definitely exciting. And this default skin is more and more appealing to the eye.
-
:ranting: :griping:
Now I can see why so many people who were interested in AmigaOne/AmigaOS4 left amiga.org to go to the "other place".
I'm sick and tired of you guys pissing all over the AmigaOne and AmigaOS4.
This thread is about an installation manual for the "Amiga OS4 developer pre-release CD for the AmigaOne".
No one is claiming that AmigaOS4 is finished yet ...
Let's at least give them a chance to enjoy some good news for once.
---------------
redfox
-
It's better than the updater built in to the BIOS of ASUS boards.
-
On my PC (an MSI Micro-ATX P4 mainboard) I recently updated my BIOS - The software that came with the motherboard automatically detected that a new version of the BIOS was available, downloaded it, and I just had to click the "flash" button and reboot, all within Windows - no boot disks, no command line. I think most newer PC BIOS's have a similar feature, or will have soon.
-
I assume this means that the Developer's Public Beta CD will be out really soon now.
-
That would have been so cool as the ASUS flash utility would only load from a floppy, which I didn't build my system with.
-
Downix: A reminder, this is not the end, it is still but the beginning. A first public beta.
Indeed. I know I'm nitpicking, here, but the documentation is definately not HTML compliant and has more than a few parsing errors. It's good form for any IT company to produce clean HTML, especially for documentation. I always seem to need a Windows box to read Linux install documentation. ;-)
The rest of the installation seems OK, given that it's a developer release. I'd be very surprised if the final has the same procedure.
Neko: What a beautiful firmware upgrade procedure they have :)
Ugh. Please tell me this is because of the "beta" nature of the OS. I mean, what the hell is the "ide reset" command doing in there? I haven't seen firmware like that since my OS/2 days.
MikeyMike: What firmware updates are notably "nice"?
I guess people still think BIOS updates are only for technically inclined geeks. Most people never update their firmware, which is why many companies do it automatically. Digital cameras, for example, will autoupdate their firmware. I had a couple people bring dead cameras to the store, only to find out the firmware was corrupt. When I try to fix them, it amazes me how horrible the update utilities are, and what terrible directions the companies provide. No wonder people screw it up. Contrary to popular belief, users are not complete idiots. I really feel bad for people who don't know anything about computers. Not a lot of progress has been made in the last 20 years, relatively speaking.
On Windows it is extremely rare to have a firmware update procedure that doesn't involve booting into DOS/a DOS disk. I don't know if Macs even "do firmware updates".
It never ceases to amaze me how horrible BIOS updates are on the PC. Booting into DOS isn't the most difficult thing to do (unless you have a Win2K/XP CD, which doesn't boot to a prompt directly), but it is totally rediculous. Why can't they just make a boot disk for you? You always have to make your own boot disk and type in everything to start the flash program. My dad just updated a BIOS on a friend's ASUS board, and the flashing utility didn't even use proper syntax at the command line. There was no space between the flash switch and the ROM filename! I thought it was just a typo in the manual. :-?
My dad owns an ABit board, and the flash updater that runs within Windows isn't too bad. You do have to "install" the flash utility and reboot, though, because it has to be installed as a kernel driver to work. It still makes me nervous to run the utility, especially since it downloads the BIOS right off the Internet and flashes it imediately without making a backup, first. At least it asks for confirmation, first!
Macs have transparrent BIOS updates. If you install MacOS9 on a pre-9 Mac, it will update the BIOS automatically. I found that out the hard way . I was wondering why our old Mac suddenly took four times longer to get through hardware checks, and the entrance screen suddenly looked different. :-)
Then again, I've seen far, far worse BIOS patches. I had to update an old Compaq, once, and the BIOS had a complete GUI designed to look like Windows 3.0, but worked ten times worse. All the options basicly boiled down to, "Windows (auto) / Unix (hardware offset)". Took me about an hour to replace the sickly, original hard drive with a "modern" three giger. I forgot how long the actual BIOS update took. I had no documentation, so it was almost an all-night project.
-
Nowadays, most motherboards have a dual BIOS, one fixed (i.e. non-flashable) and one which you can update. Sounds a lot like those good old Kickstart switchers, doesn't it? :-)
Wouldn't it be a great idea to have something similar for the AmigaOne? *hint* *hint* Jens Schoenfeld :-D ;-)
-
Considering that Amigans can have trouble unpacking a tar.gz or installing samba, updating the firmware looks tough
I'm sorry, but I don't get this. Why is the firmware upgrade difficult? The guide lists three possible ways to do it (CD, Floppy, TFTP). You can simply pick one of them which seems easy for you (and entering "fdcboot; bootm" doesn't take too much brainpower in my book).
The most complicated part is the tftpboot, but then, if you are able to set up a tftp server on your machine, the rest should be easy for you, too.
Pressing the "o" and "k" keys is just a security measure to enforce people to actually read what it says.
Besides, you get a real nice progress bar when erasing/reflashing your ROM :-)
At least it's well described.
Indeed. Carl did an excellent job there.
it still looks messy and horrible to me.
I'm open for suggestions on how to improve this. However, as I pointed out above, I don't see anything problematic about entering "fdcboot; bootm" on a command prompt. It certainly doesn't look more horrible to me than "boot /pci/ide/disk@0,0:0 up050404". I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect a user to type in a few letters verbatim.
-
Ugh. Please tell me this is because of the "beta" nature of the OS. I mean, what the hell is the "ide reset" command doing in there? I haven't seen firmware like that since my OS/2 days.
I would be surprised to see any PC bios offering a command prompt in the first place. The "ide reset" command is only there to ensure that the CD is recognized if you inserted it after the first reset. Again, I don't see the problem with entering "fdcboot; bootm" from a prompt.
-
That would have been so cool as the ASUS flash utility would only load from a floppy, which I didn't build my system with.
That is why our firmware update offers three possibilities (CD, Floppy and network; theoretically you can also transfer the floppy image to a harddisk, but then...)
-
> What a beautiful firmware upgrade procedure they have :)
You mean like
] fdcboot
Yeah, simple, isn't it ?
-
;-) Personally, I am happy that altering the firmware is difficult. It's a good thing(C). Especially, when we entertain the opposite scenario.
:-? Would you really prefer that Microsoft was able to alter your computer's firmware from Redmond without telling you that it was even done, let alone needing your permission? Now add in the TCPA, and BPL (Broadband over Power Lines,) and we've made possible the Service Dependent Computer. One that will not even boot without obtaining permission from the powers that be. Say, a government or corporation.
:-( That future is not for me, sir, not for me. I am very happy that altering an AmigaOne's firmware involves lots of human interaction in front of the box itself.
-
I have clear recollection of the responses to my article, where I wrote down, that the MorphOS CD starts with
boot /pci/cd boot.img
in the OpenFirmware prompt, that it's alien, and not Amiga at all. (On a side note I fear there will be no real Amigas anymore.)
The OS4 pre-release install guide seems fair enough to me, and I'm glad that the overall acceptance is better than my article's a year or more ago.
-
Well I have an ASUS A7V8X and I can confirm that there are three options to flashing the BIOS
1) make a bootbale disk old style
2) put the bios file on a normal floppy and use the in built flash utility
or the easiest way
3) use the update proggy from windows which will search for a newer bios of the asus website and then flash it all from within windows
-
It's better than the updater built in to the BIOS of ASUS boards.
No its not the built in asus one is the best i have used,you dont need no messing around creating bootdisks and its easy . :-?
-
The guide talks about using Linux or an Amiga to make the floppy update disk. I wonder if it can be done under Windoze?
-
I have clear recollection of the responses to my article, where I wrote down, that the MorphOS CD starts with
boot /pci/cd boot.img
in the OpenFirmware prompt, that it's alien, and not Amiga at all. (On a side note I fear there will be no real Amigas anymore.)
The OS4 pre-release install guide seems fair enough to me, and I'm glad that the overall acceptance is better than my article's a year or more ago.
It's not hard, just fussy. Instead of writing a tiny utility in the CDs bootblock (like early startup options) to do a variety of things, you have to do it all yourself. Even I could hack up something in no time at all.
But then, this might all change by the time OS4 final is ready, so all this arguing is useless, anyway.
DegeRandolf: The guide talks about using Linux or an Amiga to make the floppy update disk. I wonder if it can be done under Windoze?
RAWrite is available for Windoze. BeOS uses it with its installer, actually. You can get almost anything Linux without a GUI for Windows... it just might not work very well or at all. :-)
-
@JJ
My A7N8X didn't have the flash from windows option. I'll look forward to it on my next board.
-
Last time I did a firmware update, it was for CS060MK2, a few weeks ago.
I think A1 firmware update looks easier.
-
Actually the A7N8X does have a flash from windows using the AsusUpdate software. It can update your bios from the internet and allows you to flash it all from windows. It also allows you to flash a bios file you already have, again right from windows. I know this because that is the mb I have and I've done it twice. Quick and simple.
-
It's not hard, just fussy. Instead of writing a tiny utility in the CDs bootblock (like early startup options) to do a variety of things, you have to do it all yourself. Even I could hack up something in no time at all.
I don't get this. What is so hard about entering
fdcboot; bootm
or
diskboot 50000 1:0; bootm
or
setenv serverip a.b.c.d
tftpboot
?? Any of these lines will boot from a media, either floppy, CD-ROM or network. What "tiny utilitiy" do you want to put in what CD's "bootblock" (we're talking about an El-Torito boot image here anyway, no "bootblock")?
-
@Rogue
> I don't get this. What is so hard about entering
>
> fdcboot; bootm
>
> or
>
> diskboot 50000 1:0; bootm
Given the (IMHO) "crude" state of AmigaOne hardware and that this is the first widespread OS4 release, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But as a previous poster suggested, when seen from the POV of a current AmigaOS 3.x user, there is something distinctly "alien" about it. In order to move forward to modern hardware, it is unfortunate that we must simultaneously move backward to these kinds of interfaces. Over the long-term, I hope Hyperion and Eyetech will work to address issues like this.
Here are a few replacement procedures off the top of my head. As I don't currently own an AmigaOne and am not familiar with the subtleties of loading new firmware, take these for what they're worth:
1) User presses a key combination during the boot sequence, which makes the AmigaOne respond with a "Load new firmware?" prompt. User presses "Y", which causes the AmigaOne to scan all connected devices (a bit like checking RDB's) for recognizable firmware files. The AmigaOne presents a list of such files, and the user can choose to install one or cancel.
2) Same as above, except "Load new firmware" is an option on an early-boot screen (ie. hold both mouse buttons during boot).
3) Assuming the firmware is loaded (or can be loaded?) into RAM during bootup, like current Kickstarts, the user flashes the firmware using an OS4 Reaction GUI utility, just like flashing a modem or CD/DVD drive, and reboots to use the update. Obviously, this assumes OS4 is already installed or easily loaded off CD.
Todd
-
But as a previous poster suggested, when seen from the POV of a current AmigaOS 3.x user, there is something distinctly "alien" about it. In order to move forward to modern hardware, it is unfortunate that we must simultaneously move backward to these kinds of interfaces
I don't really see the difference. Last time I updated my CyberstormPPC flashrom, things looked very similar, I had to boot into initial CLI and enter a command from there. I don't think that the exact characters that you type matter very much.
This makes the firmware update on an AmigaOne (or a pegasos, for the matter) very similar to a classic Amiga in my opinion. Given the fact that the install guide is very detailed on what you have to do and type, I don't see it as a complete problem.
Finally, if you never had a blizzard or cyberstorm on your classic, the concept of "updating the firmware" is completely alien to you anyway because previously you had to either open your case and put in another ROM chip, or send it off to a dealer and have it replaced.
Over the long-term, I hope Hyperion and Eyetech will work to address issues like this.
Ideally this can be updated via Workbench, but that requires an installed OS 4 system. Problem is that the older firmware cannot boot the OS 4 CD. Unfortunately U-Boot does not support multiple El-Torito boot images.
But if you ask around for AmigaOne owners that actually did an update before, they will most likely confirm that the update is painless.
Here are a few replacement procedures off the top of my head
1) is potentially dangerous IMO, since it requires users to actually read on-screen text. The current updater will require you to type 'o' and 'k' to overwrite your flashrom only to force people to actually read it. I think that a flashrom update shouldn't be too comfortable because it is mostly a rare condition and should not be able to happen accidentially.
2) would be an option, but updating your firmware is essentially a hardware-dependent thing that isn't going to be integrated into the OS itself. The early boot menu on e.g. the CyberStorm would not have this option.
3) will probably be the way it will be in future updates and/or the final release CD. However, it requires that the firmware is able to use the AmigaOS install CD, and that is only true for later versions of the firmware, so for the time being it is a chicken and egg situation that can only be resolved in this way.
The Earlybird systems where specifically aimed at developers, technically inclined people, and former and present Amiga users
-
Ideally this can be updated via Workbench, but that requires an installed OS 4 system. Problem is that the older firmware cannot boot the OS 4 CD. Unfortunately U-Boot does not support multiple El-Torito boot images.
Gee wiz, I wonder how PCs manage to boot at all! Oh, right. They use bootloaders...
I don't think BIOS updates within OS4 are a good idea...
The problem is that UBoot doesn't have an update feature, but you are required to update through the firmware (as opposed to just writing data at a hard-coded hardware offset). That's a "safer" way of doing it, since the flashing utility is essentiall in the BIOS, instead of a seperate program like it is on the PC. Given that any PC program can hack my BIOS, I think I prefer the UBoot method. Still, it can't be THAT hard to write a simple Early Startup screen. After all, they did that over a decade ago on the "real" Amigas!
I don't get this. What is so hard about entering
If you have to type something exacly like in the directions, why type at all? It's not hard, just unnecessary.
I was playing Gran Tourismo 3 recently, and it just occured to be how badly designed this game is. Asside from the pathetic phsysics model, the interface is infuriating. If I want to enter a race and my current car doesn't meet race regulation, what do I do? Well, what I want to do is switch my car to one that meets regulations. Instead, I have to...
Get out of the reace menu, get out of competition mode, get out of league select, go home, go to the garage, find a car that is regulation compliant (by memory), select it, "get in", get out of garage, get our of home, then go to race/league/competition/race, and then enter the race again.
WHEW! Why should I be forced to spend 40 seconds to go to the garage when the game could instead show a list of cars that meet race regulations, and let me switch on the spot? Why so much interface clutter? It becomes very obvious after a few hours of navigating interfaces that the designers made sure the game looked very pretty, but is very frustrating to play. I don't know why this game is so damn popular, and why every racing game is trying to clone the Gran Tourismo "feel". Viper Racing on the PC is way, way more fun, even though you only have one car you can drive.
Any OS that wants to go up against Windows and MacOS *must* be interface savvy. That's why I have so many nagging doubts about Linux, OS4, and just about everyone else who gets "squashed" by Microsoft. Most operating systems are made by strict engineers and are very painful to use. Even BeOS drove me nuts with its ambiguous error messages, badly designed windows, and crummy Start Menu clone. The more I learn about Interface design, the more I realize that most people who are trying to compete against Windows are pretty much killing themselves.
is potentially dangerous IMO, since it requires users to actually read on-screen text. The current updater will require you to type 'o' and 'k' to overwrite your flashrom only to force people to actually read it
Interface designers know damn well that forcing people to read text doesn't work. People never read long texts no matter what. They just skim and see "o" and "k". It's no more effective than having, "If you don't agree that this website is harmful and will give you lepracy, click 'No, I don't agree' to enter this website". How many people are fooled by that every day? My weblogs can tell you. :-)
Unless you're my father. He's so careful about everything it takes him 2-3 hourse to re-install Windows, 30 minutes to run FDisk, and about 2 minutes alone to realize that "large disk support" means FAT32. On the other hand, when I'm helping my uncle on the phone, he will push buttons before I can even ask him, "What does the screen say, now?" :-)
-
Sure looks easier than fixing a broken Pegasos 2 bios just because you did what the manual says.
-
Gee wiz, I wonder how PCs manage to boot at all! Oh, right. They use bootloaders...
PCs use El-Torito boot images. "They use bootloaders" seems to be a bit of an understatement, since there needs to be a definition of what file to actually boot. And CD don't have boot blocks.
The problem is that UBoot doesn't have an update feature, but you are required to update through the firmware (as opposed to just writing data at a hard-coded hardware offset). That's a "safer" way of doing it, since the flashing utility is essentiall in the BIOS, instead of a seperate program like it is on the PC. Given that any PC program can hack my BIOS, I think I prefer the UBoot method. Still, it can't be THAT hard to write a simple Early Startup screen. After all, they did that over a decade ago on the "real" Amigas!
Anyone with half a brain can reprogram a flashrom. There is nothing magic about it. The firmware updater is an external program. If we had relied on U-Boot's build in capabilities, you would need to
- unlock the flashrom manually
- load the flashrom update into memory somwhere
(manually)
- copy the update into the flashrom (you guessed it, manually)
- lock the flashrom
I prefer an external program, and I'd prefer a program that makes a few sanity checks first.
Any OS that wants to go up against Windows and MacOS *must* be interface savvy. That's why I have so many nagging doubts about Linux, OS4, and just about everyone else who gets "squashed" by Microsoft
No one can go up against Windows and MacOS. Not at this stage. Neither is AmigaOS trying to do that, and I don't think that MorphOS is trying, either.
They just skim and see "o" and "k".
You must have read the text to see that you need to press those two letters. If there would have been a prominent "Press SPACE to continue" *then* people may complain, but as it is now, you need to read the text to find out that you actually need to press those keys. If you chose to skip the rest, you're beyond my help :-)
-
PCs use El-Torito boot images. "They use bootloaders" seems to be a bit of an understatement, since there needs to be a definition of what file to actually boot. And CD don't have boot blocks.
Only for CDs, I believe. PCs are designed to boot CDs by emulating a floppy drive. What difference does it make if a computer doesn't support multiple boot images? The only image you HAVE to load is the bootloader.
Do memory cards and ZIP drives work differently than CDs? I would presume they work more like hard drives.
It's just complicated since nobody thought the CD would be good for anything but storage, so nobody put effort into making a good all-purpose interface for booting, burning... CD-ROMs are the work of the devil. You'd think the people who make firmware for non-PC platforms would put their foot down and fix some of this mess. If the AmigaOne can't boot directly off a CD, well, that's a big usability issue.
Anyone with half a brain can reprogram a flashrom. There is nothing magic about it.
There is if you've never heard of a BIOS or firmware before. Most of my customers haven't, which is why they always have trouble using the products I am forced to sell them.
This is the 21st century. Haven't we gone beyond typing at command prompts, yet? Linux offers all sorts of TUI interfaces. Programmers just don't know how to use them, or really just don't care -- no matter how much their customers might.
This is why I also tend to lean towards commercial software over free, open-source apps. Nobody overlooks the importance of user interfaces more than non-commercial developers. But, that's a different topic...
I prefer an external program, and I'd prefer a program that makes a few sanity checks first.
How do you load that external program without a bootloader? Why not make the bootloader that external program? Why not build a booloader into the firmware (assuming the hardware people aren't cheap. There's a reason why most PC BIOSes are programmed in assembly).
No one can go up against Windows and MacOS. Not at this stage.
If not "this stage", then WHEN?! People have been {bleep}ing that Microsoft has been a monopoly for a decade! When will the market be ready for a serious competitor? Five years from now? Five years ago? People can do something now or they can wait forever and never do anything. I don't think anybody really understands why Amiga, BeOS, Atari, and everyone else went under. Microsoft used to be a small fry, too, at one stage.
You must have read the text to see that you need to press those two letters.
You'd be surprised how much you can see without reading. If a single frame of a movie flashes before your eyes for 1/30th of a second, you can probably recognize more than you realize, such as a character's shirt color, or whether there was a car or a boat in the background.
The longer the text, the less people will read, because unlike geeks, normal people can't bother spending a few hours figuring out every little engineering glitch and oversight. Concise, well-designed products tend to be the most sucessful in the marketplace, if branding isn't a huge influence (IBM vs HomeGrownComputers, Inc). How many people actually skim a 50-page UELA, let alone read it? People don't have time for that stuff, and will rather just take their chances with evil disclaimers than waste time reading labyrinthine legal crap.
The real point, though, is that making people type "OK" isn't going to make them understand the instructions any better. All developers should make an effort to describe what's going to happen, and just use safer methods. Concepts like "safe saving" are rare in the industry, and others like "complete on reset" seem to be exclusive only to Windows. It amazes me how many Operating Systems still have a "maintenance" mode, and are incapable of changing properties of files that are currently open. That's what queues are for!