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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: mikeymike on November 17, 2003, 03:46:30 PM
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Nintendo has just signed IBM to produce the CPUs for its next console.
article from: The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/34026.html)
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I'm not sure, this is just a hunch, but... I think IBM make CPU's. :-D
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To carry this one step further, as suggested this past weekend on MorphOS-News and HERE (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1068890897&category=forum&start=1&41)
"Why would IBM push a product they didn't own the complete stack of server to client apps for? :) "
;-)
At least the CPU part anyway!
R&B
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Poster: bloodline Date: 2003/11/17 10:51:02
I'm not sure, this is just a hunch, but... I think IBM make CPU's.
This grid CPU should be pretty interesting if it's got all three game boxes running on it. Who else is in this developement, Toshiba?
Dammy
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And if this Microsoft Nintendo IBM ATi Toshiba thingymagig runs AOS 4 we'll all be laughing.
Sooo not gonna happen though :(
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But speaking last week at the unveiling of a TV-sized supercomputer
:-?
What is a 'TV-sized' supercomputer?
speculation is mounting that the new Nintendo and Xbox 2 may be one and the same thing, with the two firms essentially offering two, individual products both derived from a common platform.
I thought xbox would sick to x86, and nintento PPC?
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I thought xbox would sick to x86, and nintento PPC?
Nope. That's why Microsoft bought that x86 emulation company, to run legacy x-box software.
By switching to PPC they gained more than they lost.
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Downix delivered:
By switching to PPC they gained more than they lost.
:-? Then, why did so many lambaste Amiga, Inc. for making the same choice for the AmigaOne?
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Then, why did so many lambaste Amiga, Inc. for making the same choice for the AmigaOne?
1) It wasn't their decision. Tao does not require PPC.
2) Because they're a small-time developer, and can't do stupid things like use slow, obsolete, expensive proprietary hardware. Companies that use proprietary hardware charge you $10,000 for a workstation, then charge you $5,000 for a CPU upgrade from 450Mhz to 800Mhz that works with your system. Yes, those are actual prices. I know this through experience.
3) AmigaOne is a PC, not a game console. The hardware needs to be flexible. Early AmigaOnes didn't even have socketed CPUs, which shows you how much the manufacturer cares about flexibility.
4) PPC market is different than the x86 market. x86 chips are made to be desktop machines, and are optimized for hazardously high performance at the expense of heat, power, and displacement. PPC cores are made for the embedded market, where waste is not tolerated. There's no doubt PPC is a supirior architecture, but, let's be real... PPC's are notorious for getting their asses kicked by x86. It's not the technology that's important, it's the needs (and wants) of the customer. I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas.
When PPC technology is put to good desktop use and can run circles around x86 without needing "Dual CPUs", I'll buy it. Until then, x86 serves my purposes better. I never wanted a PPC Amiga, and millions of other people don't, either.
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Is it forged in stone that the XBox2 will be a true PPC, a modified PPC specially tailored for the XBox2, or a completely different hybrid CPU? Microsoft is a HUGE company, and I'm sure they can afford to have modifications made to the PPC core just to suit their interests. Nobody said Microsoft is going to take a G5 and solder it to the XBox2 mobo.
Most console hardware is vastly different than the vanilla hardware we PC users buy. Console companies can afford to have their hardware Made to Order. ;-)
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By switching to PPC they gained more than they lost.
maybe they lost windows therefore gaining much more than lost... raise your hand if you've seen a
Xblock with the blue screen of death :-D :-D
scary that they are using ATI ......I loved ATI cars ages ago now they are just coming to dominence. 8-)
weird got this at the site IBM's going into damage control..... :-?
The slides from IBM's keynote presentation at the Desktop Linux Consortium conference are not available at this time. IBM informed DesktopLinux.com that the presentation we initially posted was not "approved" for publication, and they will provide a replacement within a few days.
what do ya think BBRV does anyone have the post like in thier cache or somthing :-P
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By switching to PPC they gained more than they lost
I would hope so given that their Home & Entertainment division lost $273 million in Q3.
raise your hand if you've seen a
Xblock with the blue screen of death
You won't, they have the [color=009900]green[/color] screen of death :-D
...and no I'm not kidding!
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I thought xbox would sick to x86,
Note that proto-X-BOX Sega Dreamcast (installed with Windows CE variant) is powered by SH4 processor. There should be a Dreamcast emulator floating somewhere in the WWW.
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Waccoon wrote:
I never wanted a PPC Amiga, and millions of other people don't, either.
Then they're never going to get what they want. Trying to sell x86 hardware or just software alone in such a small market as the Amiga just doesn't make economic sense.
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Poster: Waccoon Date: 2003/11/18 3:32:03
Is it forged in stone that the XBox2 will be a true PPC, a modified PPC specially tailored for the XBox2, or a completely different hybrid CPU? Microsoft is a HUGE company, and I'm sure they can afford to have modifications made to the PPC core just to suit their interests. Nobody said Microsoft is going to take a G5 and solder it to the XBox2 mobo.
Odds are it's going to be the Sony/IBM/Toshiba distributive CPU. Is it a PPC at the core, is the big question. Noting what the game consols are selling for, it's going to be mighty tough for a $400 superduper game consol to have Power4/5 based core in it.
Dammy
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@Waccoon
"I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas."
A lot of people disagree with you.
Price and SW availability are biggest reasons.
Most (if not every) Amiga fans, would buy PPC if they could do with it all what they want/need to get done.
"When PPC technology is put to good desktop use and can run circles around x86 without needing "Dual CPUs", I'll buy it. "
If a Amigan can do everyting one needs on a PPCAmiga (as fast as on x86) and if it is not more expensive, he/she definitely buys "PPC". Except you, because wintel is better untill PPC runs circles around it. ;)
"Until then, x86 serves my purposes better. I never wanted a PPC Amiga, and millions of other people don't, either."
It seems you do not want Amiga untill it runs circles around x86.
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@ksk
I can't speak of OS4, but MOS runs circles around my AMD based machine here on my Pegasos.
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PPC's are notorious for getting their asses kicked by x86. It's not the technology that's important, it's the needs (and wants) of the customer. I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas.
It seems your history has been distorted. Until Motorola hit the 500 MHz ceiling with the G4 a few years back, PPC was kicking x86 all over the pavement since it's unveiling. The Pentium 4 was even an embarrassment to Intel in the beginning because the PIII outperformed it initially. The bottomline is that neither platform runs away with total performance supremacy over the other. Furthermore, if x86 was so great, why is Intel replacing it with a new design (hence Itanium)? Most people use Wintel machines because they don't know any better. Most computer (joe user) users are ill-educated and assume that Windows is the only option out there and have this inferiority complex that you have to use Microsoft based products in order to communicate in this crazy computing kludge. Not everyone is in agreement with your assessment.
Why does people get so wrapped in the PPC vs x86 issue? All I care about is choice and we have choice in regards to the above said luckily!
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We contend that IBM will continue to advance with the PowerPC.
I. We see these indications:
1. That covers all major game consoles. (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/34026.html)
2. The PowerPC in the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers (satellite or terrestrial). Here is the latest one! (http://www.moviebeam.com)
3. Continuing emphasis on Linux. If they own the CPU and the desktop, why wouldn't they "connect the dots" in between? (refer to ANN or MorphOS-News thread from this weekend)
II. We also see some good products that can be packaged around the Pegasos:
1. The Pegasos as it is for the computer enthusiast market supporting multiple operating systems and applications. It becomes a *Development Machine* for multiple platforms. Someone is going to make a deal with us, because being a video console (and being a computer with hardware, OS, and applications/games, but limited by function) won't be enough. In the meanwhile, we will become the ultimate development machine with the 970....;-)
2. Low-cost basic Linux server as addressed in IBM presentation.
3. Firewall starting with the ShopIP and the Crunchbox (http://www.shopip.com). Better, we see the other half too built around Nessus. Think about an active penetration box -- the boxcruncher if you will. :-) This active security box could run a pretty looking version of Nessus (http://www.nessus.org) and using a remote connection be used by CIOs to check their systems. Running server daemon and GTK applications while basically trying to hack and attack the network to understand vulnerabilities. With ShopIP and Nessus we could sell the "ying" and "yang" running on a Pegasos (PPC). A total solution not suffering from the x86 code limitations. The dual package could create a unique product and marketing opportunity. Back-end Crunchbox; front-end Boxcruncher. ;-)
III. We are in active negotiations with the following BIG companies:
1. IBM
2. Atari
3. Universal Music
Think the MMPG Atari Channel or a Universal music *video* channel, but start with this in mind: GLADIATEUR! (http://gladiateur.pegasosppc.com/ )
This first project is very important to us, because we see the future of digital distribution being a combination of the content and the network itself. If the content can be separated; it can be stolen. We think we have the technology that will enable such a distribution system to exist. Think of Hotmail. The medium is the message (again)! Now it is your game bookshelf online somewhere else, but always accessible to you. It does not download. You run the client on your machine and you play the game with others from where ever you or they are.
Further, Intellectual Property Protection can only occur when the provider and user agree that the property belongs to the creator/distributor. In order to get to this point you must have a *Community*. A entertainment vehicle is the best way to obtain the participation of many people and we think this Project is a good way to get something like this started. We have many technically advanced solutions we intend to introduce to this online game world and we are excited about it.
Now, think of the Super TiVo (uses PowerPC too BTW) that does what is mentioned above using an expanded version of AmiNet*TV* integrated into the MPlayer (we will see if that is possible!) and what that could do with a TV set (and home stereo equipment vs. just an MP3 player) and a 24/7 broadband internet connection.
There is more, but that should be enough for now...:-)
The handwriting is on the wall. We are not sure why some people in this community can't read it.
:-)
R&B
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It seems your history has been distorted. Until Motorola hit the 500 MHz ceiling with the G4 a few years back, PPC was kicking x86 all over the pavement since it's unveiling
Such logic can be also applied to DEC Alpha's kicking of X86’s performance during the Pentium Classic/Pro/II era.
In terms of desktop market share X86 based system is kicking PPC based systems due to superior ISV, third party support and channel distribution. The real trigger for Intel boosting X86’s processor speed was the arrival of AMD’s K7 Athlon Model 1.
Furthermore, if x86 was so great, why is Intel replacing it with a new design (hence Itanium)?
They want to move their product from elastic to inelastic in economic terms.
Intel desires to get away from direct competition with the rest of X86 cloners e.g. AMD, Transmeta, VIA and ‘etc’…
Most people use Wintel machines because they don't know any better.
The available software titles, channel distribution support, ISV support and software investment protection was the major factor. Notice the market resistance against Intel’s IA-64. In terms sales, AMD64(X86-64) processors already surplus IA-64.
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Such logic can be also applied DEC Alpha kicking of X86’s performance during the Pentium Classic/Pro/II era.
I think we can agree that the Alpha pretty much kicked everyone around the pavement. Too bad DEC got bought by a 2-bit company called Compaq.
:-(
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I think we can agree that the Alpha pretty much kicked everyone around the pavement. Too bad DEC got bought by a 2-bit company called Compaq.
It’s was the combine attack from Intel and Compaq.
The trigger was DEC suing of Intel over the Socket 8/Pentium Pro designs i.e. claims of copying certain design concepts.
With the fall of DEC, key DEC engineers sets up Next-Gen, then Next-Gen was taken over by AMD** (also made of some key DEC engineers).
Note that, the fall of DEC also indirectly benefited IBM i.e. elimination of a competitor.
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The handwriting is on the wall. We are not sure why some people in this community can't read it.
Refer to http://www.etmag.com/publication/magazine/2003-10/27-1.htm
"Both Windows and Linux continued to grow strongly - benefiting from their association with the x86 server market. Windows continues to command the lion's share of the unit market with 59.3%, while Linux has risen to 16.3% share. "
The growth in X86 continues to be unabated.
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Of course it does Hammer, but other things are "growing' now too. The point here is that OTHER than computer markets are meeting the demands placed on them from the markets that they originate from to become "computers." It is a natural evolution. Cell phones will grow in form and function. Game consoles will do the same, as will consumer electronics in general. The point is what is a "computer" is changing. The world won't change in a day, but things like power efficiency, memory requirements and the cost of license fees can alter the equation of what is and what is not acceptable.
:-)
R&B
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I sure as hell don't want a slow PPC when I can have a fast x86, no matter how huge a heatsink it needs. I'm sure most people agree with me, which is why we all use Wintel machines, not Amigas."
A lot of people disagree with you.
Price and SW availability are biggest reasons.
Price is low because they are very popular and sell like crazy. PPC may enter that arena eventually, but not now.
As for software availability, what difference does that make? An x86 Amiga or PPC Amiga will still not be Windows compatible, and will need its own line of software, anyway. So, nobody should care what the CPU is -- so long as it's fast, cheap, durable, high in value, and has tons of 3rd party support. Keep in mind that software availability also applies to dev kits, compilers, tools, and other stuffs that will never be available for PPC, because nobody wants to port them.[/quote]
Most (if not every) Amiga fans, would buy PPC if they could do with it all what they want/need to get done.
But, will they pay $800 for a slow, obsolete PPC, when they can get a faster, more competent machine for much less money? Speed isn't everything, but value is.
People who buy the AmigaOne are hardcore Wintel haters. I just hate Windows.
"When PPC technology is put to good desktop use and can run circles around x86 without needing "Dual CPUs", I'll buy it. "
If a Amigan can do everyting one needs on a PPCAmiga (as fast as on x86) and if it is not more expensive, he/she definitely buys "PPC". Except you, because wintel is better untill PPC runs circles around it. ;)
PPC is not as fast as x86, and IS more expensive. I have no problem with paying more, but I expect it to be worth the money. $800 for an AmigaOne, or slightly less for a Pegasos, is not my idea of value.
There's more to x86 than just the processor. Think about the chipset, accesories, standards, manufacturers, competition -- the whole works. Using PPC is more than just buying a G5 and slapping it into a mobo. There's too many things you have to think about. For example, how many people thought that they would have to buy registered memory for the PPC? With x86 chipsets, you can use any memory you want, registered or not.
"Until then, x86 serves my purposes better. I never wanted a PPC Amiga, and millions of other people don't, either."
It seems you do not want Amiga untill it runs circles around x86.
Um, Amiga is an OS, x86 is a CPU.
An Amiga on x86 would be the same as Amiga on PPC, just faster and cheaper. It's also noteworthy that choosing x86 now doesn't mean you're stuck with it forever. If you program your software correctly, it should be easy to switch to other CPUs later with a minimal performance hit. Windows can't do that, because the Windows architecture sucks (and Microsoft doesn't really want to, anyway).
Choosing x86 over PPC will not guarantee that the Amiga will survive or be better than anything else. Just take a look at what happened to Amiga Inc. and their "Digital Environment" partnership with Tao. However, it will be one less headache for them to worry about.
Remember what happened to Be. Mac clones were stripped off the market, and Be had to switch to x86 just to survive. Be couldn't hack making their own hardware; I don't see why people think things they are any different for Amiga companies.
The failure of people to realize why x86 survives is WHY such an awful architecture destroyed the competition, and continues to hold its own. It just cracks me up to hear people bash technologies that swallow up entire markets.
KennyR: Then they're never going to get what they want. Trying to sell x86 hardware or just software alone in such a small market as the Amiga just doesn't make economic sense.
Nothing about the existing Amiga market makes economic sense. How many Amiga companies have fallen to bankruptcy or lack of interest? They need to broaden their scope, and making expensive proprietary hardware does not help.
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An Amiga on x86 would be the same as Amiga on PPC, just faster and cheaper. It's also noteworthy that choosing x86 now doesn't mean you're stuck with it forever. If you program your software correctly, it should be easy to switch to other CPUs later with a minimal performance hit. Windows can't do that, because the Windows architecture sucks (and Microsoft doesn't really want to, anyway).
Actually, Windows runs on more CPU platform natively than the AmigaOS.
1. Windows NT is/was available for PowerPC (NT4), Alpha(NT4/5*), X86-32/IA-32(NT4/5), AMD64/X86-64(NT5), IA-64 (NT5).
2. Windows CE is available for MIPS, SH3/SH4, PowerPC, X86-32 and ARM.
*Internal MS development platform.
The only missing key technology to unify them all is dotNET framework.
Note that, SoftWindows 95 was a PowerPC** native complied MS Windows 95 (variant) with JIT X86 emulator.
**For Apple's PowerMac market.
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Of course it does Hammer, but other things are "growing' now too. The point here is that OTHER than computer markets are meeting the demands placed on them from the markets that they originate from to become "computers."
There’s nothing new under the sun in relation to CPU’s “other” usage i.e. an ARM based personal computer solution was an Archimedes/RiscOS box. The same CPU family was installed in PocketPC and PalmOS PADs.
It is a natural evolution. Cell phones will grow in form and function. Game consoles will do the same, as will consumer electronics in general.
The said PowerPC participants wouldn’t be the first ones to evolve from single purpose computer to general purpose computer i.e. we saw this with ARM based CPU but going reverse direction.
**it was being blown away (market power) by X86 manufactures on the desktop market.
The point is what is a "computer" is changing. The world won't change in a day, but things like power efficiency, memory requirements and the cost of license fees can alter the equation of what is and what is not acceptable.
I might point out that the reverse is also true for desktop PCs i.e.
1. MS Windows XP Media Centre (includes HW requirements and specifications) for VIVO/TIVO media center roles (Occuring at this moment).
2. Windows CE .NET for embedded roles for PowerPC, MIPS, SH3/SH4, X86 CPU platforms**.
3. The introduction of Intel's “Pentium M”, VIA C3 and Transmeta for “light and thin” markets.
4. Evolution of Windows XP to Windows XP Embedded i.e. cut down XP.
This can be applied to applied to Linux X86 i.e. refer to http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7301151332.html
**Link includes "Trends in embedded CPU choice" i.e. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5134111490.html
Additional: This link
"http://www.gensw.com/pages/news/news.htm" is is just an example of embedded X86 based competition. The X86 embedded market structure mirrors the X86 desktop market structure i.e. the usual suspects** is in the ball game.
**AMD, Intel, VIA, ST Micro and'"etc'. Notice the support for “Pentium M” instead of “Pentium VI” in the embedded X86 market…
You will have your hand full with this level of competition.
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Windows NT is/was available for PowerPC (NT4), Alpha(NT4/5*), X86-32/IA-32(NT4/5), AMD64/X86-64(NT5), IA-64 (NT5).
Missed a few there:
MIPS
PA-RISC
i860
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Don't forget new Cisco routers!
I think PowerPC has a big future!
And I think G5 is faster than PIV
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@downix
Thanks for adding to the list...
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@R&B
On a slightly side track issue;
Are there any plans for Windows CE running on your PowerPC/Pegy II motherboard? Perhaps a Window CE box/virtual machine**…
**VMWARE style not VirtualPC emulator. Some thing can be applied for Linux PPC.
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And I think G5 is faster than PIV
One could not claim that for all of cases (that's another topic i.e. start a topic and see the responses).
Don't forget new Cisco routers!
It may have to compete with ARM based routers.
I think PowerPC has a big future!
It will have a future until its main backer walks away from it.
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2. Low-cost basic Linux server as addressed in IBM presentation.
How would be the cost (per unit) and feature set?
2. The PowerPC in the CPU found in the most advance DTV receivers (satellite or terrestrial). Here is the latest one!
That's nice but when you have other developments in the "thin and light" HW industry e.g.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12728
think of the Super TiVo (uses PowerPC too BTW) that does what is mentioned above using an expanded version of AmiNet*TV*
Just a note from http://thetechnozone.com/videobuyersguide/recorders/personal_video_recorders.htm
"TiVo senior vice president Brodie Keast acknowledges that "The PC has won as the center of digital content."
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OK, Hammer, you wear your glasses and we will wear ours...;-)
R&B
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Agree with it or not, this is a facinating disscusion!!
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@Hammer
So? In the digital environment there are more than just the center.
Shoot, in my household alone, I have no less than 7 other digital devices plugged into my PC. I happen to be able to tell you what CPU they run, but joe average won't be able to.
And for the record: PPC, SH-3, 2 ARM, MIPS, SPARC and NUON.
The thing is, over time by turning the PC into this digital-hub you also get an opportunity for eventual replacement. The more and more than the term PC means Digital-Hub, the less and less like a PC it becomes. This opens up new opportunities.
Do you think that the desktop market is shrinking because of lack of desire or demand? No, it is shrinking as a direct result of a lack of competition. I talked to artists that wouldn't touch a PC because "it didn't talk to me." The lack of choices is killing the market.
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SPARC
a SPARC? In what?
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"TiVo senior vice president Brodie Keast acknowledges that "The PC has won as the center of digital content."
He should be sacked. What is the point in competing if you're going to act like you've failed before you even start.
There have been huge dominating companies in the past. It doesn't mean they can't be competed against and defeated.
Windows has a long way to go before it can claim the title of "the centre of digital content", and I don't think it'll ever get there now because MS refuses to build a new product from the ground up, or at least do some major re-working of its products to lose the useless legacy infrastructure which only serves to complicate matters for average users.
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@bloodline
In my CD-player actually.
In case you didn't know, SPARC was the #1 32-bit embedded CPU for close to 5 years.
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In case you didn't know,
I didn't!
I always wondered where SUN got their cash from :-D
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@bloodline
Sun doesn't manufacture these for the most part. This one happens to be a Fuji chip. SPARC is an IEEE standard specification, and is implimented by no less than 9 companies.
Check out the SPARC standards group here (http://www.sparc.com).
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Remember what happened to Be. Mac clones were stripped off the market, and Be had to switch to x86 just to survive.
Except they didn't, they met Microsoft who crushed them like a bug (they recently settled for $23 million).
How many companies have sitched to x86 / Windows expecting big rewards only to find a whole heap of competition and promptly go bust?
How many Amiga companies have made the transition recently and even survived?
Be couldn't hack making their own hardware; I don't see why people think things they are any different for Amiga companies.
Because Be lost $200 per machine. Pegasos makes money and I expect the A1 does also.
The failure of people to realize why x86 survives is WHY such an awful architecture destroyed the competition, and continues to hold its own.
Marketing, Conservatisim and low Costs.
It just cracks me up to hear people bash technologies that swallow up entire markets.
The best technologies rarely win.
You are arguing that we should go x86.
OK lets say we did that. We would have a lot less hassles component wise* but due to our low volumes we'd be selling the same hardware for a much higher price.
Result: one hardware company out of the hardware business.
Ok we have MorphOS so we coulds sell it as an OS. Firstly we'd lose all compatibility due to the little / big endian issue alone, that could be fixed by an emulator but there's pretty serious performance isses there.
Then of course we'd be in the same boat as Be. If we don't do our own hardware we have to get someone else to ship the OS with theirs, and if they sell Windows thats a big goodbye from them.
Be had the most advanced OS out there, they were even willing to give it away free to Hardware companies but not one took it.
What you are advocating would destroy the companies serving the Amiga market.
A big market has advantages yes, but most people also forget that a big market has big competition. PPC may be a niche desktop wise but it's one we can at least survive in.
Not being able to use a standard PC part for the NorthBridge is a problem now but that'll be solved when the 970 gets HyperTransport.
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Do you think that the desktop market is shrinking because of lack of desire or demand? No, it is shrinking as a direct result of a lack of competition.
They have competition in the HW and software arena btw.
I talked to artists that wouldn't touch a PC because "it didn't talk to me."
Define "it didn't talk to me."
The lack of choices is killing the market.
Any mass scale statistical count to back that particular claim?
So? In the digital environment there are more than just the center.
Of course.
The thing is, over time by turning the PC into this digital-hub you also get an opportunity for eventual replacement. The more and more than the term PC means Digital-Hub, the less and less like a PC it becomes. This opens up new opportunities.
Media Centre PC is just assimilation of one role into collection of existing role.
The PC is still tied to the following;
1. Legacy, i.e. look at the market resistance to Desktop IA-64 (Deerfield core) Desktop PC. This factor will not go away. There’s nothing powerful than “software investment protection”. IF this was not the case the current market situation should not have happened.
2. Software titles in productivity, development and entertainment. PS; IF the alternative market did produce a superior IDE to Borland and Microsoft then I will be interested.
3. Its predicable that certain software company will maximise the 64bit market by leveraging their existing market power from one market into another market. This is what they done in the transition from the strictly business PC to multimedia/home PC market. This is then maximised with union of X86 based manufactures and distribution chains willing to expand into new markets. From statistics, the exceeding X86 market power is then leverage into another market e.g. We saw this in the server market. This market power is leverage by another OS i.e. Linux X86 (both free and commercial distributions)**. This market has taken a life on its own. The box is only one aspect of this artificial life form.
**Reference
http://www.etmag.com/publication/magazine/2003-10/27-1.htm
A “beefed up” game console (i.e. old term home computer) is nothing new under sun.
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Be had the most advanced OS out there, they were even willing to give it away free to Hardware companies but not one took it.
One factor was; it stumped by “software investment protection” factors. Linux X86 has a better "software investment protection” factor due to WINE/WINEX and/or VMWARE/other DOS box.
Unlike AmigaOS i.e. it has a sizeable “software investments", brand name and once a dominant player in home/multimedia PC market, the BeOS is starting from scratch.
The best technologies rarely win.
Can you apply “best technology” on OS that can’t offer “software investment protection”?
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He should be sacked. What is the point in competing if you're going to act like you've failed before you even start.
Has He actually failed his mission?
Windows has a long way to go before it can claim the title of "the centre of digital content",
Well, it has the most software available for it.
Is there any major “must have” software for XYZ OS that’s not available for Windows?
and I don't think it'll ever get there now because MS refuses to build a new product from the ground up,
You got Windows CE (on a drip feed) to cover that issue i.e. a Windows Edition without X86 legacy burden.
or at least do some major re-working of its products to lose the useless legacy infrastructure which only serves to complicate matters for average users.
On same token, consumers expects compatibility.
There are other products that complicate matters for "average users" i.e. Linux/GNU.
The legacy infrastructure is one of the overriding factors that set “entry to the market” for new OS vendors difficult.
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Sorry for being long-winded in this thread, but I'm very sensitive to the x86/PPC, commercial/free software, and technology/marketing comparrisons.
Hammer: It will have a future until its main backer walks away from it.
Well said. The computer industry is a fickle business. Plan appropriately.
Didn't Amiga plan to use the Parhelia as their next-gen video card? What would've happened if they had used it? Even today, the Parhelia is wicked expensive, has no future, and is only barely competitive with the GeForce4.
It happens.
Do you think that the desktop market is shrinking because of lack of desire or demand? No, it is shrinking as a direct result of a lack of competition. I talked to artists that wouldn't touch a PC because "it didn't talk to me." The lack of choices is killing the market.
Only when it comes to the OS. PC hardware is loaded with competition.
How many motherboard manufacturers are there? How many companies are made and broken by their drivers, not just the hardware? If you don't like the service from Gateway or Dell, how many other choices do you have?
Mikeymike: He should be sacked. What is the point in competing if you're going to act like you've failed before you even start.
Agreed. That should be the excuse you use after a corporate reorganization and product redesign, not a casual comment.
Bloodline: I always wondered where SUN got their cash from
My homepage runs off a 1U Sun server. I don't remember what OS it uses, though... Linux or Solaris. I think the choice belongs to my ISP.
Minator: How many companies have sitched to x86 / Windows expecting big rewards only to find a whole heap of competition and promptly go bust?
So, you're saying it's harder to use vanilla x86 hardware, made by lots of different companies, than to buy a desktop version of the PPC, which are given to Apple by default under contract? How many G5 Amigas are there? How'd you like to see an Athlon64 Amiga? No waiting lists or availability problems, there.
Because Be lost $200 per machine. Pegasos makes money and I expect the A1 does also.
So they say. They are private companies and can say whatever they want. Pegasos might also "make" money by other means. If Be lost money selling computers, how did they make any money at all? Hardware sales alone is not the end-all of making profit. All speculation, of course, but it never hurts to think about an entire product line instead of one piece of a project.
Keep in mind that the BeBox was also made at a time when PPC chipsets were not easy to find, and x86 was a hugely inferior machine. They didn't have the huge availability of "do it yourself" hardware we have today, and today's x86 chips are very competitive with PPC.
Marketing, Conservatisim and low Costs.
So, there are companies where these three principles do NOT apply?
The best technologies rarely win.
Ah, the old Beta/VHS and QWERTY/Dvorak argument. A business is competitive because they master ALL fronts, not just technology. The sooner people realize that and stop acting snobish becase, "our technology is better", the better a chance they have at surviving in the real world. Computers really don't have much to do with technology. Computers change, customers don't.
Ok we have MorphOS so we coulds sell it as an OS. Firstly we'd lose all compatibility due to the little / big endian issue alone, that could be fixed by an emulator but there's pretty serious performance isses there.
Well, they should have thought about that earlier. You can change your college major as many times as you like, but don't expect to have an easy time finishing school.
Then of course we'd be in the same boat as Be. If we don't do our own hardware we have to get someone else to ship the OS with theirs, and if they sell Windows thats a big goodbye from them.
Why do people have this idea that you have to ask Dell or Compaq to distribute Amigas? Most of the workstations I used at my last job were sold as packages. Digital Now, Inc. didn't sell you a Dell, they built their own machine off an ASUS motherboard and preloaded their own software with a hardware key. That's the price you had to pay for the ability to use their software. I'd rather pay $800 for an Abit board with a rippin' Athlon and the latest standards like gigabit Ethernet and SerialATA, instead of an ancient PPC with USB 1.1 and bulky, frustrating, parallel ATA.
Is that so hard?
What you are advocating would destroy the companies serving the Amiga market.
Heh. What's left of them. AmigaOne went on sale long before the OS was ready! The Amiga community is shrinking at every moment, and for a reason.
PPC may be a niche desktop wise but it's one we can at least survive in.
So long as Apple doesn't do something stupid, or we'll have to deal with the embedded version of the PPC, and we'll be in the same boat as Acorn: paying thousands for a 1Ghz processor. Hey, they might even have a dual CPU Amiga in a few years, to do the work a PC can with one CPU.
Not being able to use a standard PC part for the NorthBridge is a problem now but that'll be solved when the 970 gets HyperTransport.
It'll be a long time before Amigas can use the 970, and if the 970 is a disappointment in Apple's arena, you can bet we'll suffer from the throwback.
Hammer: Define "it didn't talk to me."
It's an artist thing. Don't expect to understand.
Of course, a lack of logic would be the reason why you won't. ;-)
Downix: The thing is, over time by turning the PC into this digital-hub you also get an opportunity for eventual replacement.
That depends who controls the hub standards. Hardware will change like mad, but if content will only play on THIS standard, you'll still have to have the same software. Isn't that the way the PC industry already works?
Has He actually failed his mission?
I don't know the exact situation, here, or anything about Tivo, but if he admit defeat without a follow-up plan, then he certainly has failed.
"A plan! I MUST have a plan!"
Hammer: On same token, consumers expects compatibility.
There are other products that complicate matters for "average users" i.e. Linux/GNU.
Precicely why I tend to favor commercial products over free products. They have a financial obligation to support their products, write accurate, understandable documentation, and preserve logical legacy support.
I tried to install Apache, MySQL, PHP, and Perl on my Windows machine for testing my scripts before uploading them to my webserver, and getting these free technologies to work was like pulling teeth. Forums were filled with strangers than gave a hundred different solutions to the same problem (where none were actually correct), and the documentation is incomplete, inaccurate, and incomprehensible. "Read the F***ing Manual" is hardly an effective war cry of the free software zealots, if the documentation is wrong, as it usually is with Win32 ports of Un*x software. This is the information age, but people are still obsessed with the quantity of information, not the accuracy. "Average" users don't give a hoot about technical jargon. They just want the products to work as advertised or promised.
Citing Microsoft's practices of chaging the MS Word document format every version, to support switching to free software, is hardly effective. When you're as big as Microsoft, you can afford to screw around with your customers. Small companies can't pull those kinds of stunts. If you think small commercial developers don't support their products, I suggest you get away from Microsoft and Apple and try some small-time publishers. You might be surprised.
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You know wwhat I find funny?
lots of hardcore Amiga fanatics here, saying how crap the x86 is becasue of Legacy support, and how crap Windows is because of Legacy support (yeah, Windows does suffer there)... and Why are these very same people buying into OS4 and MOS?
Because of Legacy support :-D
I hope these people now see how important it is to the IT industry to have backwards compatibility.
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IBM providing CPUs for all three major next-gen consoles
Interesting
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If you think small commercial developers don't support their products, I suggest you get away from Microsoft and Apple and try some small-time publishers. You might be surprised.
Plenty of companies have built custom automated document management add-ons with MS Office/Word platform. Such a move may require the porting of VBA add-ons to these Office platforms, thus it would cost time and money do a repetitive port. At the moment, SUN’s Star Office 6 seems to offer the real alternative for creating custom automated document management add-ons.
Small commercial developers supporting their products are another issue all together.
I tried to install Apache, MySQL, PHP, and Perl on my Windows machine for testing my scripts before uploading them to my webserver, and getting these free technologies to work was like pulling teeth. Forums were filled with strangers than gave a hundred different solutions to the same problem (where none were actually correct), and the documentation is incomplete, inaccurate, and incomprehensible. "Read the F***ing Manual" is hardly an effective war cry of the free software zealots, if the documentation is wrong, as it usually is with Win32 ports of Un*x software.
There’s no proper consideration if the said product is free.
The issues with Linux these days is the commercialisation of the surrounding service add-ons e.g. Crossover Office*, Trans-gaming*, Lindows*, Red Hat Linux Advance Server**, Ximian Evolution Email** and ‘etc’.
*Subscription based services.
**Service oriented business model.
It's an artist thing. Don't expect to understand.
It’s a rhetorical question to quantify the answer.
PS; On my free time, my hobby is playing with Cinema 4D (Win32).
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What if Apple/IBM manages to deliver DDR2 to Joe Average before AMD...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/34108.html
"Indeed, AppleInsider yesterday claimed to have seen a detailed report covering Apple's next major Power Mac G5 update, due early next March. According to the story, the new machines will sport an updated North Bridge which adds 533MHz DDR 2 SDRAM and 1.5GHz FSB support - the latter is logical, given CEO Steve Jobs' promise to ship a 3GHz Power Mac next summer."
:-P
That would not be too shaddy for a "dead desktop CPU", IMHO.
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maybe they lost windows therefore gaining much more than lost...
There are PPC-versions of Windows, you know... :-D
I wouldn't be suprised if there suddenly comes out a PPC-version of Longhorn.