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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: System on November 11, 2003, 12:23:59 PM
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At Amigaworld.net (http://webring.amigaworld.net/Warp3D_on_AmigaOne.png) you can view an actual screenshot of Warp3D running natively on the AmigaOne as published in Club Amiga Monthly issue #10.
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Wot, no ansiotropic filtering or anti-aliasing? :-D
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Wot, no ansiotropic filtering or anti-aliasing?
:lol:
I'm guessing the Pixel Shaders will be in the next release ;-)
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Great work Hyperion Little time ago most of trolls say that OS4 won't never run Warp3D.
Good job guys.
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Great work Hyperion Little time ago most of trolls say that OS4 won't never run Warp3D.
Who said that?
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Lets not start another flamewar ...
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Yes don't start another flamewar, enjoy OS4. And you don't like it don't piss me off bitching.
Another step forward, thanks Hyperion.
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@ikir
Wow a little aggresive don't you think :-?
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I'm guessing the Pixel Shaders will be in the next release
No, the next release will feature a few other "intermediate" thinks like Anti-Aliasing and anisotropic filtering ;-) Pixel shaders will come after that.
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@ ikir
Yes don't start another flamewar, enjoy OS4. And you don't like it don't piss me off bitching.
Presumably, in your vocabulary "bitching" means asking you to back up your accusations with evidence :-?
I'm not disputing that someone said it once, the "it can't be done" following on this planet is usually quite large.
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Is this pure PPC/OS4 Warp3D? Presumably WOS Warp3D is a lot harder to get to run, because of the way OS4 is designed.
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Running W3D games is not such an exploit... the question is : on this
screen shot is there hardware acceleration or software... If it's
software.. so i can't see anything exceptional
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@ikir
Wow a little aggresive don't you think
MMMm... yes, you are right, sorry :-D
But someone should stop to FUD every A1/OS4 news on this portal.
My english vocabolary is a little small, yes...so i can't write exactly what ii think lol
Mmm maybe "BLOODLINE SHUT UP" shoud be better :-D
Go go go Hyperion bring us a kick-ass OS 8-)
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Running W3D games is not such an exploit... the question is : on this
screen shot is there hardware acceleration or software... If it's
software.. so i can't see anything exceptional
It means "only" that Warp3D now runs under A1 and OS4. It don't need to be spectacular, i run it in the past on my 1230+Voodoo3. The best is yet to come.... stay tuned for other kick-ass news soon.
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But someone should stop to FUD every A1/OS4 news on this portal.
He asked you were your accusation came from...
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Quote:
@ikir
Wow a little aggresive don't you think
MMMm... yes, you are right, sorry But someone should stop to FUD every A1/OS4 news on this portal. My english vocabolary is a little small, yes...so i can't write exactly what ii think lol Mmm maybe "BLOODLINE SHUT UP" shoud be better Go go go Hyperion bring us a kick-ass OS
Have you ever wondered if so much anymosity towards OS4 is in part due to the fact that its most fervent supporters (ie: you) sometimes look like friggin' psychotic-maniac-depressive individuals, being the norm of your posts a 98% pure enthusiasm and the rest a minimal 2% technical arguments??
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Have you ever wondered if so much anymosity towards OS4 is in part due to the fact that its most fervent supporters (ie: you) sometimes look like friggin' psychotic-maniac-depressive individuals, being the norm of your posts a 98% pure enthusiasm and the rest a minimal 2% technical arguments??
Also, replacing "OS4" with pretty much any product name is equally valid :-)
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No, the next release will feature a few other "intermediate" thinks like Anti-Aliasing and anisotropic filtering Pixel shaders will come after that.
Are you guys doing the work yourselves, or are there other devs working on Warp3D?
Pixel Shaders are part of the OpenGL2.0 spec right?
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@ mikeymike
He asked you were your accusation came from...
Ikir's statement was non specific, so IMO only if a person is in fact a troll, this person should feel that this applies to him- or herself and there may be a need to defend oneself. :-P
Personally I could list a few dozen claims by various people who had claimed it to be a fact that the involved companies or the AmigaOS4 product itself was doomed for failure.
I agree that it's good to see those trolls being proven more and more wrong on a near weekly basis. 8-) Although I don't think it's a good idea to start finger pointing at specific individuals and cause yet another flamewar.
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@MikeB... I see you still live in your fantacy world where you and your deciples are the only people worthy of OS4 :-x
I don't remember anyone saying any of the things you say. It seems to me that you just make these accuations up to make yourself look more rightous.
I was far more shocked to see the UAE Warp3D thing.
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@mikeB
I agree that it's good to see those trolls being proven more and more wrong on a near weekly basis. Although I don't think it's a good idea to start finger pointing at specific individuals and cause yet another flamewar.
And you think your comment helps ?
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@ bloodline
I see you still live in your fantacy world where you and your deciples are the only people worthy of OS4 :-x
Now this is a specific accusation, which needs to be backed up with proof.
I don't remember anyone saying any of the things you say. It seems to me that you just make these accuations up to make yourself look more rightous.
Maybe you don't read the same forums and threads as I did. I will gladly point you to some examples *privately* if you so desire. I don't think it's a good idea to start insulting and make false accusations against me.
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@ Kees
And you think your comment helps ?
I just don't think we should start finger pointing here as some people posting here seem to like to see happening.
There are well known trolls and if anyone wants to see examples I would gladly provide people examples privately.
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You say we shouldn't start pointing fingers ... yet you come in defending Ikir's comment(s) ... doesn't make sense to me ...
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@ Kees
You say we shouldn't start pointing fingers ... yet you come in defending Ikir's comment(s) ... doesn't make sense to me ...
I mean to pressure Ikir to point to the specific people/examples would IMO not be a good approach.
As I said there are well known trolling claims by certain people in the past.
Personally I would recommend people to handle the issue privately. Signing off (Please contact via email if needed: mike@amigaworld.net)
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What do you mean with software ? The whole point of Warp3D is that it is hardware acceleration :)
Steffen Haeuser
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What do you mean with software ? The whole point of Warp3D is that it is hardware acceleration :)
But Warp3D does provide software routines to use if the Hardware isn't present right? AROS has an OpenGL library, but it is totally software with no hardware aceleration at the moment. I thought that the current Warp3D drivers in OS4 might be at this level too, at the moment.
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1st sign that something is completly wrong in your "camp":
You manage to ruin "your" theads without help from "the other side".
Hillarious :-D
@MikeB:
I do read a lot of forums, but
I never saw "OS4 will never be done" outside "colorless" trolls,and
surely not by someone from the "inner blue circle".
I never saw "W3D will never run on OS4".
So it seems that Ikir's claim was just pulled out of thin air and a deliberate
act of trolling just like all the other similar sounding ones we tend to
see for every step OS4 takes .....
I mean it is not as if both sides didn't say enough stupid/wrong stuff
about the other side ..... really no need to invent stuff, just do a bit of
research :-P
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You manage to ruin "your" theads without help from "the other side".
:lol:
I did try and resolve this matter in private with MikeB but he is very keen on smearing threads :-(
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here we go again..
pps:hyperion , nice going!
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This could have been an interesting thread, but then ikir and MikeB started to babble about trolls, flamewars, etc, pushing the focus away from the real issue and destroying the positive atmosphere. Pity! :-x
MOOODERAAATORS!!! ;-) :-P :-D
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Is this pure PPC/OS4 Warp3D?
Yes.
Presumably WOS Warp3D is a lot harder to get to run, because of the way OS4 is designed.
What makes you think so? I mean, not that it would be nesessary in this case anyway, but why do you think that getting WOS Warp3D would be so hard?
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on this screen shot is there hardware acceleration or software..
It's hardware.
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@ Rogue
I second bloodlines question: Are you guys doing the work yourselves on this one?
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Are you guys doing the work yourselves, or are there other devs working on Warp3D?
We're going to do that ourselves. And I'm really looking forward to it ;-)
Pixel Shaders are part of the OpenGL2.0 spec right?
Yes, although extensions already bring these to 1.x. The ARB pixel and vertex shader extensions are quite commonly accepted, although you need DX9-class hardware for that. The OpenGL 2.0 specs define their own high-level shader language, which is a definite step forward from the assembly-level register combiner langauges seen in DX8 and the ARB extensions (or ATI's extensions for the matter).
Problem is, OpenGL 2.0's HLSL is quite C-like and versatile, so a lot of cards will not be able to compile these shaders properly - they may even contain loops and subroutine calls that everything except the P-10 cannot do at the moment, at least not in the scope that the HLSL defines (DX9 also defines loops and subroutine calls, but as usual imposes hardware/vendor-Specific restrictions on them. A DX 9.1 release for the next-gen graphics cards is sure to happen).
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@Rogue
Good work to all involved.
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What do pixel shaders actually do?
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But Warp3D does provide software routines to use if the Hardware isn't present right?
Stephane Guillard wrote a software-renderer for Warp3D. For the most part, however, a generic software renderer is slower than a specialized one. For example, you could theoretically run GLQuake on it (I tried running WipeoutXL on it once, and it was *almost* playable), but the original software Quake will be faster in every respect.
AROS has an OpenGL library, but it is totally software with no hardware aceleration at the moment.
Based on Mesa, I guess?
I thought that the current Warp3D drivers in OS4 might be at this level too, at the moment.
No, they're fully hardware accelerated (Voodoo 3 ATM, but I'm itching to start the radeon driver ;-) ). The drivers themselves use little to no system interaction (only reading a few ENV variables at startup to account for different settings etc), so the only real change required was to adapt to the new OS 4 library model.
This is a rather straight port, but in the near future I'd like to take advantage of a few points that the new library system provides. Unfortunately, this was a weekend project and priorities are elsewhere :-)
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@Mikeymike
It is a graphics function that calculates out effects on a per-pixel basis as opposed to per-vertex. It is great for creating ambience, giving materials and surfaces that little something to make it that much more realistic. So, using pixel shaders, you can give that 3D rendered face a bunch of zits or some stubble that looks more realistic than before.
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What do pixel shaders actually do?
They re-invent software rendering into the 3D graphics card :-)
Honestly, a pixel shader is a small program in a specialized language that is executed for every pixel in the primitive that the graphics chip wants to output. This way, you can control the appearance of your output at a very low level.
Doom 3 uses these for example to calculate per-pixel lightning based on normal maps. The result looks quite spectacular. Other uses include fresnal reflection on water (where you can see the sky being mirrored in the distance but can see through the surface right before you), dirty-mirrors effects, and much more.
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Re: Picture of Warp3D Running Natively on AmigaOne
Poster: mikeymike Date: 2003/11/11 17:47:12
What do pixel shaders actually do?
Simply put you have vertex and pixel shaders.
[edit] Damn Roge whipped me to it! :-)[/edit]
both are "programs" which are executed for every vertex or pixel fragment that is processed by the card.
for instance your vertex shade would take in the vertex x,y,z colour etc of the vertex. And a transformation matrix. The code in the vertex shader would then apply the matrix to the vert, and write out the result to specified registers/vars.
Similar thing for pixel shaders, but you get texels from textures and so on instead of x,y,z... values.
This gives programmers freedom (within reason) to do stuff as they want compared to the old fixed function type pipelines.
I hope that made sense, if so Yay! for me! :-D
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@downix:
Good work to all involved.
Thanks ;-)
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Great work Hyperion Little time ago most of trolls say that OS4 won't never run Warp3D.
Umm... I don't think Warp3D was ever in question. I think people asked if OS4 will support PowerUP and WarpOS software.
And now the race is on... let's see which OS gets Warp3D support for Radeon first. :-P
P.S.
Good work. ;)
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Good work to all involved.
Agreed. I'm curious to see the finished product in action.
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@TheJackal
Hey, I beat ya both to it, so 8P
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Good news guys, cheers.
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@Rogue
Based on Mesa, I guess?
Yup... Due to the nature of the project everything has to be open source :-) Am I right in thinking that Warp3D was based on MESA?
Anyway, when you've finished on your current project, how do you feel about writing some hardware accelerated Radion GFX drivers for AROS :-D :-D :-D
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NOW THAT's a screenshot!!! :-D Way to go Hyperion! Is it safe to assume that you've already started on the 4.1 modules, Rogue? I remember reading somewhere that 3D wasn't coming until 4.1. This is MAJOR progress to me (granted, I never got to USE Warp on my Miggy). WOW! It reminds me of the VR Training from Metal Gear Solid. :-P
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It is a graphics function that calculates out effects on a per-pixel basis as opposed to per-vertex. It is great for creating ambience, giving materials and surfaces that little something to make it that much more realistic. So, using pixel shaders, you can give that 3D rendered face a bunch of zits or some stubble that looks more realistic than before.
Doesn't that turn 3D graphics rendering completely on its head though? Or it simply expands on the normal rendering process? Ie. a shape is drawn in the usual vertex way, then instead of painting a texture per side, every pixel on each visible side is then programmed for colour, reflection value, etc.?
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They re-invent software rendering into the 3D graphics card
Honestly, a pixel shader is a small program in a specialized language that is executed for every pixel in the primitive that the graphics chip wants to output. This way, you can control the appearance of your output at a very low level.
Doom 3 uses these for example to calculate per-pixel lightning based on normal maps. The result looks quite spectacular. Other uses include fresnal reflection on water (where you can see the sky being mirrored in the distance but can see through the surface right before you), dirty-mirrors effects, and much more.
@Rogue
I love all that technical talk :-) :-)
Gimmie some more! :-P
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Am I right in thinking that Warp3D was based on MESA?
No. StormMESA was (as its name impllies :-)) Warp3D is our code from ground up. Warp3D isn't a GL, it's more like GLIDE, meaning it is a slim layer between the Application and the hardware. Currently it doesn't even have T&L support (meaning you feed it projected screen-space coordinates) but that might change for the Radeon.
glSokoban (which you seen on the screenshot) is using MiniGL. MiniGL is an OpenGL subset library that I wrote for our port of Heretic II (just enough functionality for running a Quake2 engine, plus a few more features that where easy to implement). MiniGL directly works with Warp3D as a hardware rendering backend.
Anyway, when you've finished on your current project, how do you feel about writing some hardware accelerated Radion GFX drivers for AROS
If you're referring to 2D drivers, I think I must disappoint you - I don't know an inkling about that...
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@mikeymike
it does both, actually. You can do it the old-fashioned way, the new-fashioned way, or do both at once. The best pixelshader effects I've seen have used vertex shading combined with pixel shading for maximum effect.
As Rogue pointed out, Doom 3 uses pixel shading for lighting effects, and it shines there. The place I find it most useful, however, is in water surfaces, adding a reflection to the surface.
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Doesn't that turn 3D graphics rendering completely on its head though? Or it simply expands on the normal rendering process? Ie. a shape is drawn in the usual vertex way, then instead of painting a texture per side, every pixel on each visible side is then programmed for colour, reflection value, etc.?
The hardware still does all the rasterization and stuff. Most of the modern graphics cards implement their pipeline with two programmable stages - vertex program and pixel program.
In a "normal" program the T&L unit just transforms the vertex data into clip space (the OpenGL GL_MODELVIEW matrix does that). With a vertex program, you can override that behaviour. However, you cannot (as a rule) introduce new vertices or different connectivity - you feed it a triangle and you get a triangle.
That data is rasterized by the hardware into fragments. Each fragment is really just a pixel with additional data attached (Depth value, stencil value, color, alpha, s/t coordinates etc.). A pixel shader (or fragment program) is called with this information and is supposed to either pass on these values as the output, or modify them. A fixed-function pipeline would e.g. apply a texture based on the s/t value. A pixel shader can do that, too, but it has indefinitely more possibilities. It can, for example, examine the current pixel's normal and modify the alpha value accordingly (that would result in e.g. the fresnal reflection effect mentioned earlier). It could also lighten or darken the pixel to simulate a dirty surface, or mix it with a lightsource color to produce bump mapping effects.
As I said, Doom 3 uses these for a very cool effect: They use very high density meshes for their models and then recalculate them to a low-polygon representation to be used in the game, but in the process encode parts of the "roughness"/detail lost in a special texture map. The pixel shader calculates the "real" appearance based on this info (mostly by applying lightning/shadow calculation). The result is that the Doom3 models look very detailed and high-res (and ultimately scary :-) but aren't so much more complex than the average 3d model of today.
Pixel shader effects are going to be a basic requirement for any 3D game in the coming year. There is no way that you will be able to go without them.
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If you're referring to 2D drivers, I think I must disappoint you - I don't know an inkling about that...
nooo, I'm talking about 3D drivers :-D
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Poster: Kees Date: 2003/11/11 14:04:35
Lets not start another flamewar ...
. . .too late, thanks to your "companion" mikeymike with its comment at the beginning of the thread.:
"Wot, no ansiotropic filtering or anti-aliasing? :-) "
Ciao
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@Framiga
Hääääääääähhhhhh ???
Your joking or what ?
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Dear Kronos
the answer is: NOT
Cheers
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:-?
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. . .too late, thanks to your "companion" mikeymike with its comment at the beginning of the thread.:
Mikeymike's comment should not be taken literly, since only the very latest hardware supports such features, he was making a joke that they were not supported, in this early port.
I think it was a bit of a techie joke, and certainly one that doesn't cross the language divide :-)
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:-) :-D :-(
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@ bloodline
Damn NET . . .sometimes the gap between a"techie joke" and a trolling attempt, is very, very thin :-)
Ciao
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A clear case of misunderstanding based on the language barrier as well as the difficulty of getting humour across in a forum post.
I think emoticons (smilies) are over used to the extent that they are now mostly ignored.
The smiley in the original post should have indicated humour but with people abusing these symbols by posting them left right and centre, it may have made it difficult to distinguish the humorous remark from a serious one.
That is one of the reasons the thread started deteriorating.
It is also clear that a few individuals have a fervent enthusiasm and their online persona becomes well known for such qualities. It is helpful to just accept their character than to continually challenge it.
On the other hand It is a good idea to first question a persons meaning before lashing out and claiming that the post is a troll attempt. Especially when you are not sure because of linguistic shortcomings.
I have seen many clashes caused by such type of situations and all of them could have been avoided if there was a pause to think before replying.
There is no shame in asking someone if they are being sarcastic or serious etc. etc if you are not sure.
Also if you are going to reply then do so to what a person has posted rather than what "you think" that person is capable of posting.
All in all people should try not to over react. Even if someone does genuinely troll then why reply. Surely the best thing to do when "you think" someone is trolling is to ignore them.
My ramblings may sound boring but someone has to say this stuff ;-)
[Edited for clarification of meaning]
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gadgetmaster:i agree with you on that one.
@hyperion: so basically wos and w3d is working in os4 now?=? , or is that an homebrewed version of glsokoban?, if wos is working now then this is looking SWEET!.
cheers
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Awesome !!
Can't wait for Radeon drivers (Their getting the hint !!)
:-D
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so basically wos and w3d is working in os4 now?=? , or is that an homebrewed version of glsokoban?, if wos is working now then this is looking SWEET!.
No, this is a fully OS4-Native version of Warp3D and glSokoban. I don't want to rely on the WOS emu to run Warp3D ;-)
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rouge:good that we got that out of the sky then.
but there will be a problem if we had to recompile all (not many i know..but still) wos and pup stuff for os4 native, and mostb of all it might end up with the fact that there is no way to get the sources for stuff like wipeout 2097 and so on...
so i hope there will be a decent wos emu atleast (as i have begged for .....for a while now :) O)
cheers
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I don't remember anyone saying any of the things you say.
Selective memory perhaps? I remember reading people's posts forecasting about AmigaOS's doom, and that it will NEVER run on PPC. That has been proven wrong, along with a bunch of other little things.
There's no point arguing over this, people have said countless stupid things in both directions. Whatever. Fact is it's good to see Warp3D finally functional on an AmigaOne. Here's to more good news: :pint:
- Mike
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. . .too late, thanks to your "companion" mikeymike with its comment at the beginning of the thread.:
Ok, hands up who thought that was anything other than a harmless joke?
If there is a language barrier issue with what I said, that's hardly my fault. Ansiotropic filtering and anti-aliasing in 3D graphics are quite recent advances (last couple of years?), I would hardly expect for it to be in OS4 final release, let alone the first 3D implementations. That's not trying to look down on Hyperion either, it is hardly a feature worth paying much attention to for the first new release, and it could be supplied in a boingbag/patch/upgrade anyway.
Gawd, some people.
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Damn NET . . .sometimes the gap between a"techie joke" and a trolling attempt, is very, very thin
What did you think I meant? :-?
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Can't wait for Radeon drivers (Their getting the hint !!)
My Radeon is already sitting in my A1, she growls when you get too near :-D
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but there will be a problem if we had to recompile all (not many i know..but still) wos and pup stuff for os4 native
I didn't say that it will be impossible to run WOS stuff with Warp3D... OS4 native code (and emulated 68k code) will use Warp3D.library. WOS code uses to use (and will continue to do so) Warp3DPPC.library, which will be a WOS library.
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@Rogue
Just like to say I'm most impressed with your work. They must have you tied up in that basement, giving you the occasional whipping to encourage you to produce so much! (unless of course you take that to be a perk of the job hehe :-D )
As for the 3D interface, I'm assuming in the future you are looking to support the T&L stuff. The speed difference is quite amazing when here at work you force the T&L into software vertex processing as apposed to HW.
Anyhow keep up the good work....
...oh and when will it be ready! (*snigger* :-P )
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Rogue,
have you noticed the fact that the behaviour toward Hyperion is becoming better every day ?
Finally the "Force" is spreading strongly in all the Amiga community... :-D
You deserved it !
PS - good things are (almost always) discovered and appreciated in the end... 8-)
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have you noticed the fact that the behaviour toward Hyperion is becoming better every day ?
Finally the "Force" is spreading strongly in all the Amiga community...
You deserved it !
PS - good things are (almost always) discovered and appreciated in the end...
Do you deliberately stir things up, or does it come naturally?
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Naturally... ;-)
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I'm assuming in the future you are looking to support the T&L stuff. The speed difference is quite amazing when here at work you force the T&L into software vertex processing as apposed to HW.
Yes. T&L is on the TODO list for the next interim version, as well as a few other things.
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@ Rogue
What's the intended short-term future past the OS4 release, is it going to be like the couple previous AmigaOS releases, where a couple of 'boing bags' are released then a new (paid for) version?
I realise plans can change, but some indication would be nice to know. Personally I wouldn't be surprised from a revenue point of view that a new (paid for) version (after OS4.0) comes sooner than intended/usual (from the community point of view), as it is a huge investment in time and money.
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Yes. T&L is on the TODO list for the next interim version, as well as a few other things.
I can tell you are itching to do some freebee work on AROS 3D drivers now!!! :-)
Don't listen to nasty Mr Hermans, join us :-D
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@Rogue:
It still is the 'old' Warp3D version being converted, or is it being built arround the new NOVA engine?
Cheers
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@mikeymike:
We didn't look too far into the future after OS 4, but I'd say that after the initial release, there will be a maintnance release shortly afterwards - beta testing is one thing, but deployment will very likely show off a lot of hidden bugs.
4.1 is being talked about already, mostly about intended featureset and timeframe after the 4.0 release, but I can't disclose anything at the moment about that. It will most likely also depend on the feedback we get.
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I can tell you are itching to do some freebee work on AROS 3D drivers now!!!
Don't listen to nasty Mr Hermans, join us
He doesn't even talk nasty about AROS, honestly :-)
Yes, I would like to work on 3D drivers now, but I'd be selfish enough to go for AmigaOS first... Yeah, I can be mean ;-)
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It still is the 'old' Warp3D version being converted, or is it being built arround the new NOVA engine?
This is "old" Warp3D. We'll do some reworking for the OS 4 version (like said T&L support), which will probably not make it into the classic version, but that's basically it. NOVA is in planning stage, and it will depend on opportunities that arise how it will evolve, but it will certainly not see the light of day until a good deal after OS 4.0 is released.
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>so i hope there will be a decent wos emu atleast (as i have >begged for .....for a while now :) O)
Currently working on the wos emu :)
Steffen
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@ MagicSN
This may ruffle some feathers for people who "suggested" otherwise. ;-)