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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: System on November 10, 2003, 03:31:31 AM
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Genesi has begun discussions with REBOL to integrate portions of REBOL into a free developer package for the MorphOS Developer Connection. Genesi would pay REBOL a license fee for such a package and may bundle REBOL with the MorphOS SDK. The Corporate REBOL site can be found here (http://www.rebol.com/).
All interested in such an arrangement, please express your interest here on this thread. Please be specific about your interest and the advantages you can see in the integration of REBOL into the next generation of MorphOS.
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WOW! First R.J., now Dr. Carl S. himself! Looks like MOS has discovered the value of the name and the history! Maybe, if there was a "MOS FOR A1" I might look at it!
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Like most people, I dont understand the significance of this technological marvel. I have however downloaded a REBOL demo ages ago and was extremely impressed with the product.
WHEN are you people going to read MARKETING 101?
You might be sitting on a revolutionary concept, but if you try to sell it in nerdspeak- it will evaporate or worse still get stolen and shelved by the evil microsoft.
Sounds great, make it happen... but LET THE WORLD KNOW.
Will Amiga learn from it's own history?
thank you.
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I still don't really know what REBOL does... I've read pages and pages of technical and promotional documents but I still don't know how it will benefit me!!!
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my point exactly. Wake up brainiacs!
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People are constantly complaining that Pegasos isn't Amiga. With REBOL on board, it gets yet another step closer to convincing. After all, Sassenrath was behind REBOL, and how much more Amiga do you get?
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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
Poster: KennyR Date: 2003/11/10 12:51:11
People are constantly complaining that Pegasos isn't Amiga. With REBOL on board, it gets yet another step closer to convincing. After all, Sassenrath was behind REBOL, and how much more Amiga do you get?
They want a little Sticker that says Amiga.
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lol... AmigaOS is amigaos because it is AmigaOS, not becaues the original people are involved or its got the same classic apps.
its AmigaOS because its the original source!
I dont think bbrv are getting REBOL onto their platform just because it or its developers had something to do with Amiga's. Their doing it because there could be a market for it!
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lol... AmigaOS is amigaos because it is AmigaOS, not becaues the original people are involved or its got the same classic apps.
MOS and UAE run those same apps just fine, AROS too on 68k hardware.
its AmigaOS because its the original source!
The Fiedens (sp?) have stated that they have had to rewrite much of it.
I dont think bbrv are getting REBOL onto their platform just because it or its developers had something to do with Amiga's. Their doing it because there could be a market for it!
Yes, I agree.
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Original source? You're kidding, right? OS4 is as much as a rewrite as AROS or MOS. I'd love for you to explain to me how you can turn 68k assembler source into C without a rewrite.
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Original source? You're kidding, right? OS4 is as much as a rewrite as AROS or MOS. I'd love for you to explain to me how you can turn 68k assembler source into C without a rewrite.
You forget that some parts of the OS are running under 68k emulation, they obviously use the original source :-D
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Nitpicker ;)
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Our discussions with Carl will be focused on using REBOL as a universal tool for all operating systems running on the platform. Clearly, MorphOS is our number one long term priority with all this moving toward the mobile environment, but there could be great benefit in uniting all the Pegasos supported operating systems through REBOL.
It also seems an interesting way to further improve the stature of the Phoenix Developer Consortium as a clearing house for all things Pegasos.
We will do our best to further the action required as quickly as we can.
Sincerely,
R&B :-)
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@bloodline,
well I get your point...
rebol is just a scripting language that works on a lot of platforms, and it doesn't necessarily do anything that another language doesn't do.
But, it is a fun interesting language.
As for selling it, well it only needs to be useful and it will begin to sell.
For example, if you had an OS that integrated it, and rebol was the engine behind 'folder actions', i.e. you drop a file in a folder and something happens automatically, whether that be archiving, e-mailing, scrubbing and forwarding...
then you could say glibly, here is what Rebol is, its the engine that makes folder actions work.
Of course, that is not a technical explanation, and is hardly meaningful to most of us, but that would be 'marketing'...unfortunately marketing isn't just talking a good game when you try to sell the vacuum cleaner at the door...its about a lot of things, but oh well...
it sounds like this most definately will not be integrated into MorphOS, and therefore will not provide any unique value to MorphOS, an OS sorely in need of some kind of unique value.
I just have to point out, anyone can get rebol already, and they don't have any need to purchase a pegasos for Rebol.
This is a nonevent, as its stated now.
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MarkTime, we will work on turning this non-event into one.
;-)
R&B
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@marktime,
Getting Carl Sassenrath and RJ Mical to consider the Pegasos on the same weekend is very much an "event". What else would you need to qualify as an "event"?
REBOL on MorphOS has literally tons of potential. It taps the "geek" market (which develops thousands of applications) and has the same degree of importance to MorphOS -- and the others -- that AREXX made to the original Amiga platform.
Using REBOL on MorphOS, anyone can develop an application for every platform out there. Isn't that the same thing Amiga DE was SUPPOSED to do, except without having to learn C and having to deal with all the obsessive licencing and control issues?
Wayne Hunt
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I've used REBOL before, found it quite easy to use and scalable. Heck, several projects ago, I was even talking to Carl about using it in the OS for the project.
What I find interesting is that folk ask what it can do, when appropriately the answer is "what do you want to do with it?"
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I haven't found a use for REBOL yet, because I can't really understand it (due my short commings, rather than REBOLs).
I assume it's like AREXX (something that I never found a great deal of use for either, though I understand the usefullness)
-Edit- I removed the outdated parts of this post (Cheers Wayne).
And when are we gonna see an AROS port of REBOL then, (Gotta keep the plugs going) :-P
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@bloodline
You are correct. My apologies, edited.
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REBOL on MorphOS has literally tons of potential. It taps the "geek" market (which develops thousands of applications) and has the same degree of importance to MorphOS -- and the others -- that AREXX made to the original Amiga platform.
I think that is a highly questionable statement. I've followed REBOLs progress since the first publically visible beginnings and I fail to see a takeup of REBOL on other
platforms that compares to the central role that AREXX took to dabbling and system automation.
Maybe it will take off on MorphOS for want of something better or more ubiquitous, however as for tapping the geek market, I don't see that tap producing anything other than a tiny trickle.
REBOL is yet to become as pervasive as it could potentially do and in the meantime there are other favourites of each operating system.
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You know Wayne, I almost thought about editing my reply to not say it was a 'non-event'...but then I got busy, and never got back to changing it.
Anyway, I use language fairly precisely, which is why I thought about changing it, but also why it wasn't very imprecise in the first place.
An event is an actual occurance...the event will come when this dream is a reality. I suppose you could say a 'consideration of pegasos' is an event in itself....but I called it a nonevent, on the first pass. It's like whatever Carl ate for breakfast, is a nonevent to me, what he considered over the weekend, is a nonevent to me...
It is good that Carl and RJ 'considered' something...good, cool.
I got Rebol when it was first released, and have kept up with it ever since.
But I know the difference between something thats good for me, and something thats good for Genesi.
For example Rebol running as a cross OS solution, for FreeBSD, Linux, and MorphOS, is great for someone who needs a cross OS solution, a hardware vendor like Genesi, as an example.
it is however meaningless to someone like me who is only considering MorphOS as being Amiga-like,a nd Linux and FreeBSD as being other operating systems outside this community, and my interest.
more argument for nonevent.
But its not totally meaningless or really a complete nonevent, in any case, because even just a PPC version of Rebol for MorphOS is something, not nothing at all.
I was being too dramatic about it....
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Marktime, then why did you even post on here then if to you it's a nonevent? I don't understand your reasoning for your posts on this thread.
Dammy
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anytime someone with intelligence and talent decides to do something, that is an event.
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@cecilia
What the heck??
My dog does doo doo's in my backyard and that's an event. It happened, it had consequenses, mainly I had to go scoop, but it prevented full use of the backyard.
I fail to see how intelegence or tallent is relevent in expressing what an event is.
Mind you some of those doo doo's had serious talent...... :)))
All I will say is, good on em, and whatever.
Maybe AI will incorperate their own thing. Who cares. As long as the OS does what YOU want it too, it's going to be just what you wanted.
I like how MOS get's all the AMIGA kudos though, and kudos to them :))
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@SHADES :lol:
@The Topic:
Here is one of the reasons this is relevent... First, assume that REBOL makes a succesful appearance on MorphOS. With that, people will want to use REBOL. MorphOS will see REBOL become part of the SDK. This will likely be enough of a push to convince the powers that be to fund a REBOL parser for MorphED, which leads directly back to GoldED.
Since Dietmar is so talented, he could even develop a nifty toolbar to run the REBOL script from GoldED. NOW, we have a REBOL development system for all of OUR Amiga-Like systems. Thus, by one "corner" of this "split" community getting something, we can all be helped.
While I know my post is a little on the hopeful (or eternally optimistic) side, I think it is feasable. I know this chain of events isn't here, but it is not a stretch of the imagination by any means.
:-) It. Is. Good. :-)
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My dog does doo doo's in my backyard and that's an event.
hmmm. i talk about intelligence and talent. and you're talkin' doo doo.
ok, whatever floats yer boat!
:lol:
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@ cecilia
No, you were talking about what describes an event. I dissagree with that statement. It doesn't take intelligence to make an event, or a memorable one even.
Anyway, it's off topic.
@Targhan
I dunno, I suppose it's a good thing, it just seems that more and more MorphOS is aimed specificly at the AMIGA user and tries to take it's small userbase. I'm sure they all thought about it for hours at end on the implications that may be made by marketing the OS as like an AMIGA type OS then brining into it the developers of the AMIGA OS etc...
Not a conspiricy theory, it seem quite plain to me. And fine if fighting for the AMIGA user base is what they want, they are doing a dandy job.
there is plenty of room for many opperating systems and it's AMIGA's history for people to try and bury it. I hope it survives this time. But I am pro AMIGA so I am biased. You may be pro MorphOs, as so on, and so forth.
To me Morph OS is more like AROS (Amiga Replacement Opperating System) than AROS is.
That's not a direct comparison mind you, I know they are completely different, but it seems the way morphOs is geared. Carl S. Geez. Maybe we can port REBOL to OS4 too :))
I'm sure it's a great thing for Morph Os I agree. It's sort of an "In Your Face" to the AMIGA users though.
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@SHADES
can the conspiracy theories.
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I'm sure to some people it IS kind of in-your-face threatening. But many of you would have felt much differently if nothing Amiga-migrational occurred with Hyperion (or someone else).
When MorphOS was started it really was the only game in town for people with an interest in Amiga software compatibility that was to run on the processor many people said they wanted to use, and having started at a time when absoultely NO INTEREST was shown by the owners of the name, it was a good thing to many that the MorphOS crew took the risk and did the work. If you think they will NOW quit their interest and their business just because some people are uncomfortable with a Butterfly around after having sucked on the teet of a Boing Ball for so long, you just don't understand that THEY too have been passionate about a path for lovers of the Amiga.
But it doesn't have to make people crazy, angry, mean-spirited, or disenheartened. It's just a computer platform with a lot of interest to many of the remaining people of the Amiga neighborhood. Actually, for it to go forward for many years, more important is what can be done with the Pegasos in the outside world, using other OSes, and we see REBOL as a good addition to the multi-OS strategy, starting with MorphOS - but not stopping there.
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@greenboy
I agree. Moving forward is productive, but before this turns into debate on which is better, the OS of the platform AMIGA has been moving forward, 1.0 1.2 2.0 2.1 3.0 3.1 3.5 3.9 and now 4.0 promised with new hardware base.
Even Microsoft is threatened my Linux.
It's not crazy or mean spirited to have a commmuninty of people passionate about their platform. If it wasn't for that passion, there would be no AMIGa or probabaly Morph OS either. So I don't see it as really a need for debate. It's a natural reaction for anyone defending something they have passion for.
If I took Linus T from Linux over to Microsoft to help with development of the opperating system, do you think the Linux community would be happy? Do you think they would see that as a positive step perhaps?
If Morph OS is indeed there to migrate users over to a better platform, why are we divided? why is there need to debate ? is it forward or sideways. It's not really AMIGA OS, neither is Be.
I'm not being mean and I'm sure they won't stop their company, they are making money and creating their own user base.
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@Shades
We are divided because some folk (on both sides, mind you) cannot handle the thought of there being 2 choices. (Remember the WarpUP vs PowerUP wars from a few years back) They get obsessed with there being only the OTW (One True Way) and anything else is a blasphemy.
Fact is, there is another option, the boing ball is not the only way, and in fact, there are benefits to something not-name-brand, or the other-name-brand. (I, for one, prefer Pepsi over Coca-Cola) This division comes from a lack of acknowledging of the common history. "We are from the Amiga, they cannot be, they are an imposter."
From my viewpoint, if both OS's do well it will be a testiment to the foresight of those first engineers at HiTorro, to the genius of Carl, RJ, Dale and the rest of them, making an OS that is fast, scalable, and most of all desirable. Heck, if one does well and the other fades away, the one that remains will be stronger due to the struggle against its sibling.
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Poster: downix Date: 2003/11/11 0:05:09
We are divided because some folk (on both sides, mind you) cannot handle the thought of there being 2 choices. (Remember the WarpUP vs PowerUP wars from a few years back) They get obsessed with there being only the OTW (One True Way) and anything else is a blasphemy.
Three choices, thank you very much. ;)
Dammy
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REBOL is yet to become as pervasive as it could potentially do and in the meantime there are other favourites of each operating system.
Dave, it's great that we have you around to help us keep our enthusiasm in check. Somehow certain individuals got kind of excited about the idea that REBOL -- which has wrangled a reputation as a fairly imaginative scripting language, and which has certain roots that we tend to appreciate -- might find a home on a little platform trying to get bootstrapped.
Fortunately you've weighed in with your armchair analysis and, if anyone takes it seriously, this will properly curb any undue palpitations. Certainly, the idea of a REBOL SDK not being available for the Pegasos platform (despite the apparent harmony between REBOL's strengths and Genesi's business targets) would be much preferable, and clearly the fact that REBOL hasn't fully lived up to its potential means it's a dead end and should be dumped.
Thank you. Another effort to grow synergistically rightfully squashed. ;-)
-- gary_c
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at times I wonder when and if people will get over the Amiga/Pegasos war... I feel like I'm watching over children fighting over toys... Cant some of you (and you know who you are) keep your comments to yourself? I'm glad I'm a tolerant moderator.
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Dave, it's great that we have you around to help us keep our enthusiasm in check.
Oh dear, did I say something you didn't want to hear?
OK, so Dave should now expect some pretty daft sniping in the rest of your followup rather than reasoned counter argument.
Somehow certain individuals got kind of excited about the idea that REBOL -- which has wrangled a reputation as a fairly imaginative scripting language,
Never argued with that.
and which has certain roots that we tend to appreciate --
See nothing here to back up Waynes statement and certainly nothing I argued with.
might find a home on a little platform trying to get bootstrapped.
No argument there, I stated clearly what my issue was and my reasons why - what do you think you are trying to achieve with this tangent?
The problem you are going to get, out there in the REAL world, is when running around saying "we run REBOL we run REBOL" the real world will turn around and say "so?".
Why is that? Because the people using it, are most definately in the minority.
Fortunately you've weighed in with your armchair analysis and,
..... if anyone takes it seriously ....
.... this will properly curb any undue palpitations.
Gary, why do you bother to weigh in if you cannot bear the thought that someone might actually have a point. I don't see you arguing here with any counter arguments, merely attacking me as an "armchair analyst" who people should not really take seriously.
And you are sitting on....? No Gary, I think if you are going
to lower yourself to this level I think you should show exactly where REBOL has gained such a central role in scripting and system automation that makes what Wayne sayes not a serious exaggeration.
I ask you, out there in the real world, where it counts, how many people are using REBOL versus say, PHP, Python, Perl and BASH?
Certainly, the idea of a REBOL SDK not being available for the Pegasos platform (despite the apparent harmony
Yes of course, because this is so pertinent to what I said above.
between REBOL's strengths and Genesi's business targets)
Ahem, which are? What are Genesi's business targets and REBOLs matching strengths? You brought the subject up and I have yet to see the former articulated clearly.
would be much preferable, and clearly the fact that REBOL hasn't fully lived up to its potential means it's a dead end and should be dumped.
Is that your view? A pretty strange one, certainly not mine which you would know if you had read my response without prejudice.
Thank you. Another effort to grow synergistically rightfully squashed.
Don't let Bill Hoggett see you use language like that. ;-)
Despite its technical credentials REBOL will not bring a flood of new users to the "Pegasos" or attract any, this is the truth of the matter.
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[Edited for clarity.]
Oh dear, did I say something you didn't want to hear?
No. Really, no need for melodrama. More darkly realistic things were said about the present state of Rebol on the Phoenix lists, etc., after Genesi posed the question. Nobody's expecting miracles; but it's a cool development and could add incrementally to the viability of the platform.
It's just funny how predictably you add your bit to try to dampen things; I'm sure you'd claim that you'd have exactly the same reaction if it were AOS being considered for this kind of comprehensive Rebol port (although I'm not sure how the multi-OS aspect would figure in there). But I'd kind of have to see that reaction from you to believe it, if you know what I mean. In the meantime, the predictability of your response is just tiresome. We know the circumstances around Rebol and RT right now, and we know this step won't spark any miracles, but it's still a seriously cool development. I'm just tired of the petty, partisan negativism.
-- gary_c
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@Gary_C
:-o
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Shades:
@ cecilia No, you were talking about what describes an event. I dissagree with that statement. It doesn't take intelligence to make an event, or a memorable one even.
I'm talking about what is an EVENT in MY life. (as an artist I try to be creative everyday. every single day!)
obviously doo doo is an event in your life.
:lol:
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@downix
True but Pepsi and Coke are not struggleing for a user base.
Linux and microsoft was a bad example because neither are they, but it gets the point I was trying to make accross. How can the father of the OS moving to another platform that is clearly aimed at it's user base be taken as a good sign for AMIGA. You clearly stated (Fact is, there is another option, the boing ball is not the only way, and in fact, there are benefits to something not-name-brand, or the other-name-brand.)
That's what? andother option to choose another opperating system?? Well sure, I could even go to Windows, but Windows is not aimed at AMIGA specificaly. As I used before the Linus Torvolds example, going to program for, I dunno, let's say HP unix.
As I said perviously, how would the linux community feel about that.
You have made an alternative to AOS, aimed at the AMIGA community as an alternative or whatever, met some, not all resistance, and then gone and with money, taken the person who designed the OS for AMIGA in the forst place to help work on this alternative system.
AMIGA users all sit back and go, well I'll be, that's not very nice, we are worried about folding yet again, and someone goes and moves a hand like this against us yet again. I wonder if Bill G is invloved. Or some crap like that.
No person who is interested in the AMIGA's survival is going to see this as a positive sign. It's a great sign for people of Morph OS especialy if they came from the AMIGA and liked that platform, they just got it's designer in to contribute!!.
As for your last comment, I already have agreed with that. As I said previously, if it wasn't for this community standing by the NAME it is so passionate about, you would have neither opperating system. What's your point there? Of courese the stonger will remain, as I also said previously, most AMIGA people are not going to see this as a good sign, most will say it's another step to snuff the light. Another hand against them. It is not going to be seen as a positive step forwad to a company (AMIGA) already short on funds, that is trying to once again pick itself up and fight forward as an opperating system. It has a passionate community and that's the only thing keeping it's head up, it's the whole reason for another OS revision. It's not good for AMIGA, it's great for MorphOS.
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SHADES wrote:
No person who is interested in the AMIGA's survival is going to see this as a positive sign
Well, it all comes back to what you define as "AMIGA". If you define it as "Amiga, Inc. and its official partners," then you might have something to worry about here. If you define it as "natural (but unofficial in terms of IP purchases) progressions of the classic Commodore Amiga platform," (or as those two combined) then it's definitely a positive step.
This has been argued to death, though, and so to be civil I imagine people will just have to agree to disagree about where the Amiga legacy actually is these days.
-- gary_c
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@gary
That's a pointless statement. If you were to define AMIGA as commodore then it's already dead.
If we are still discussing MorphOS It's not a progression of the original classic platform at all it's another opperating system. They will tell you that themselves! It's aimed and capturing the feel Of AMIGA OS perhaps, but it's not the AMIGA OS Opperating System. It's like running Linux on AMIGA HW. That's not an AMIGA, it's linux. OR Unix on your 4000T that's not AMIGA, that's an AMIGA computer running Unix.
Or perhaps you could run windows, all pointless. If AMIGA OS ran on your Athlon 2800 and ran AMIGA application nativly, ie, we never had a 68000 in an AMIGA, we used Intel from day one, then it would be AMIGA. Just like you can have an IBM clone PC these days with Linux called a linux box, or Windows, or BE etc......
I think it's quite obvious actually. but it's probably easier to describe what it isn't. It's not MorphOS, it's not Linux, it's not BE, etc, etc. It's AMIGA.
The opperating system is what is trying to be discussed, the AMIGA opperating system can't be descibed any other way. The point raised is bringing over the person responsible for AMIGA OS to another OS because AMIGA is in a state that is nearly there to bury it for good. Little funding, small userbase.
It doesn't matter what hardware it's run under, if it's running the computer, it's classed as an opperating system. It is the software that allows you to use the hardware in a productive and usefull way.
If it changes hardware, it does, as long as it retains the ability it was designed for. Emulation is not as efficient, so that's why it is being re-written. It's not MorphOs, or any other system. You talk about progression, I'd say it's more like migration, just like a windows user moving to Linux. He may consider Linux to be the natural progression of the Windows enviroment for him.
Pointless. I'm sure this argument has been fought to death, but it doesn't stop a small community from banding together to try and keep an opperating enviroment they enjoy up and in use. However! if you were to say to me, MorphOS is the version OS3.5 and I run AMIGA os 3.0, then well yes, you would be very right! but MorphOS is MorphOs, not AMIGA os at all.
If MorphOs was 3.5 it would be used as such. It is not, it is another opperating system that is on offer as a replacment to what AMIGA users currently use and whoever else want's to use it.
To bring the developer of the AMIGA OS over to help make Morph OS is a kick in the teeth to AMIGA users. However that doesn't make it AMIGA OS. Just as Linus programming for Microsoft would not make Windows into Linux but if Linux was in the postion of AI, with very little funds, it would sure worry the Linux community.
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@Shades
But noone has called MorphOS AmigaOS... except you. MorphOS is MorphOS, it is a step forward *from* AmigaOS. It keeps what we liked about AmigaOS, but gives a framework to progress the platform. It is from the community *for* the community. To deny its place is to deny the very community spirit that fostered it.
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@downix
what the, quote me if I'm wrong, oh hang on, I'll quote myself "If MorphOs was 3.5 it would be used as such. It is not, it is another opperating system that is on offer as a replacment to what AMIGA users currently use and whoever else want's to use it."
I have said Morph OS is Morph OS. it's not a step forward, it's sideways, or migrating to another opperating system.
Downix, Morph Os is not the progression of the AMIGA opperating system, it is another opperating system.
It dsoesn't matter who wrote it, man, Microsoft could go write an OS and call it zuse. It runs zuse applictaions, but it's not Windows. Sure Microsoft made it.
Morph is not even based on AMIGA OS's code. Morph Os is MorphOS, it's an alternative to AMIGA OS. Period.
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@Shades
Are we even talking about the same OS here? I'm talking about the AmigaOS that was modular. I'm talking about the AmigaOS that can and does have 3rd party replacements to almost every single system component, including 3rd party exec.libraries. There are folk out there running AmigaOS without a single Commodore designed library.
Where do you define AmigaOS when every single component can and is replaceable without breaking the whole. Where do you draw the line?
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@downix
Oh a different angle now?
>>There are folk out there running AmigaOS without a single Commodore designed library.
What, Linux? or are we talking MOrph OS now :)) lol
I agree, I have friends who run Windows and there is not 1 single Commodore Libray in that, infact it's even called Microsoft Windows. Yup even people who run Linux on the AMIGA classic Hardware, that's not AMIGa either though is it?, that's Linux. If I was able to run Windows on my classic AMIGA hardware, would I be using AMIGA? Would it be an AMIGA or just another WINDOWS box?
I know lots of differnt libraries for Windows that ar not Windows libraries, how about Linux ones :)) I'm sure we could go on.
It's quite simple. MorphOs is in direct competition with AMIGA Os. It's an alternative to the AMIGA OS and it is being offered as such.
It is not AMIGA Os, it has nver claimed to be AMIGA OS, it is offering another opperating system to use INSTEAD of AMIGA OS. It is claiming to have a similar "feel" to that of AMIGA OS. I guess BE could be considered to "feel" like only the best bits of M$ Windows opperating system, but it's not Windows, it's BE. Pointless.
Even your 3rd party libraries and programs that enhance the AMIGA OS still have to run on it's foundation. Directory Opus runs under Windows now, but that doesn't make it "Opus opperating system"
If the 3rd party "enhancements" Don't run under AMIGA os enviroment, they crash. or fail to work or if they change the code, then they could be labled as a trancoder, or emulator.
Easy to draw the line. Morph OS is an Alternative, that's what it is, it's not the AMIGA OS, nor does it pretend to be. It is in direct competition with the AMIGA OS, and having Carl S brought in is just another blow to the already dented AMIGA OS community.
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@Shades
And what about components that replace that foundation, such as a replacement exec.library? Where do you draw the line?
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That's a pointless statement. If you were to define AMIGA as commodore then it's already dead.
No, I'm not defining Amiga as Commodore: I said "progressions of the classic Commodore Amiga." By that I mean things that have evolved from the old platform.
f we are still discussing MorphOS It's not a progression of the original classic platform at all it's another opperating system.
Sure it's a progression. Have you used MorphOS on a Pegasos? The lineage is undeniable. Yes, it's also another operating system. For all intents and purposes, AOS4 is also another operating system, relative to 68xxx AmigaOS. Isn't the goal to have it all PowerPC-native? Is it *a good thing* to have the old 68xxx code in there and have to have it running in emulation? The AOS4 developers are working like mad to get away from the old code and here you are trying to hold on to it. ;-)
Sorry, but this is a classic case of valuing brand name over product qualities. That's your choice, though, so that's fine. But other people interpret things their own way. In this view *all* of these post-Commodore projects are descendants of the original in one way or another, because of the backgrounds of the people doing them (apart from the manufacturers of the AmigaOne hardware, anyway), the design goals, the "look-and-feel," the third-party developers, the end-users, etc. Trying to draw some artificial line down the middle of all of these based on an IP purchase just doesn't cut it.
To bring the developer of the AMIGA OS over to help make Morph OS is a kick in the teeth to AMIGA users.
Sorry you feel that way, but I imagine he'd also work with Amiga, Inc. or Hyperion if he was approached with a good plan. Maybe somebody should ask Fleecy.
However that doesn't make it AMIGA OS.
Nope. Nobody's saying it is. It's "Amiga-like." If you get a chance, try it out. You'll see how true that statement is. This question of is it or is it not "Amiga" will eventually fade away. It isn't even important or fun to think about anymore.
-- gary_c
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@downix
Well that depends, if you are talking about an update or rewrite like OS4, It's still there to run AMIGA OS and AMIGA OS software like the transition from Windows 3.1 to 9x series or NT. Nt meaning New Technolgy where a kernal is implimented. Much closer like exec.
It is not however an OS replacement like MorphOs is.
If your claiming that Morph Os is AMIGA OS, think again. If you replace the opperating system with completly new everyhting, it becomes that.
Linux on the AMIGA replaces EVERYTHING when running on the AMIGA, hence would be classed as a Linux Box no matter the hardware. Running a complely new OS on AMIGA hardware for example, MorphOS makes it a MorphOS box . It's really not hard to define where it stops.
I will speak slowly. Morph OS is an a l t e r n a t i v e to the AMIGA OS, it is marketed as such. It is also in direct competition with AMIGA OS. If it was not, AI would have bout it and intergrated it into the OS that is AMIGA OS. They have not, and they have re-written the OS to what is now considered to be OS4. Exec is but a part of that. Tell me, re-compiling the kernal in Linux to run on or whereever, does that mean it is no longer Linux? No it does not. Many compilations of the kernal are developed for linux, I just did a build the other night with the latest revision. Some different kernals break certain things, some support more or different. The OS remains.
Morph Os is not AMIGA OS, ask them if you don't believe me.
The lines are drawn and are clear. The AMIGA OS is being updated and re-compiled and enhanced, it is still AMIGA OS, although it is compiled for a newer hardfware base now. i can run Linux on a sparc station too, is that now Sparc OS, no it's not.
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The lines are drawn and are clear. The AMIGA OS is being updated and re-compiled and enhanced, it is still AMIGA OS, although it is compiled for a newer hardfware base now. i can run Linux on a sparc station too, is that now Sparc OS, no it's not.
You really don't know what you are talking about.
I've asked people before NOT to enter into disscusions they do not understand. :-x
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@Matt
It would help an awful lot if you explained why he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Seemed like an accurate description of what is happening for the migration from AmigaOS3.x to AmigaOS4.x.
The poser at the end was an interesting one, and goes back into the done-to-death question of what makes an Amiga an Amiga ( apart from the stamp on the box ).
Dave.
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@bloodline
Says who?, you? where is you argument.
The disgussion may have gone slightly askew from the original topic, but something needed to be cleared up.
i was trying to explain that Morph OS is not AMIGA OS, that it is an Alternative OS to the AMIGA OS. It is marketed as such. An OS that does run AMIGA and copyed on it's roots would be called a clone or dervitive of the origonal. Like slackware is to RedHat.
All well and good to throw in your statement and I welcome it, but to just say blindly I can't describe what an OS is is really narrow. If my statements are so wrong, why don't you contribute in a positive way instead of slander, you think you're capable, jump on board and offer some constructive criticism.
I have worked with computers from vic20 to spectrum and even built my own z80 machines from parts as hobby projects and programed them for simple tasks as well. I have ass dip in electronics, certificate in electrical engineering and I am completing study in comp sys engineering.
I think I may have some sort of a clue, well my education seems to say such. Oh did I mention I maintain systems for a very large communications company?
i find that your comment is only derogatory, not insightful or helpful. I don't know why you bother to post when it's putting people down. Have a nice day now won't you .
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@gary
>>
No, I'm not defining Amiga as Commodore: I said "progressions of the classic Commodore Amiga." By that I mean things that have evolved from the old platform.
Same with window? so? Windows runs on a multitude of platforms. Linux too.
>>Sorry, but this is a classic case of valuing brand name over product qualities. That's your choice, though, so that's fine. But other people interpret things their own way. In this view *all* of these post-Commodore projects are descendants of the original in one way or another, because of the backgrounds of the people doing them (apart from the manufacturers of the AmigaOne hardware, anyway), the design goals, the "look-and-feel," the third-party developers, the end-users, etc. Trying to draw some artificial line down the middle of all of these based on an IP purchase just doesn't cut it.
Sure it does, why do people use Windows. Or why do people choose Coke over Pepsi. Brand name loyalty is very big buisness. Has a lot to do with succsess.
>>Sure it's a progression. Have you used MorphOS on a Pegasos? The lineage is undeniable. Yes, it's also another operating system. For all intents and purposes, AOS4 is also another operating system, relative to 68xxx AmigaOS. Isn't the goal to have it all PowerPC-native? Is it *a good thing* to have the old 68xxx code in there and have to have it running in emulation? The AOS4 developers are working like mad to get away from the old code and here you are trying to hold on to
Says who? I nver stated I was holding onto anything? I mearly state it is based on the foundations of the pervious classic OS. Who says they can't update it or run it even on a strong arm if they want. that's not 68000 code.
>>Sorry you feel that way, but I imagine he'd also work with Amiga, Inc. or Hyperion if he was approached with a good plan. Maybe somebody should ask Fleecy.
Given enough money, you're probably right. From last I heard AI was struggleing to stay afloat. Carl S has stated before he is interested in seeing where his "baby" has ended up. He needs to take his future into account, perhaps the deal is better with Morph.
Where in the world did I say Morph shouldn't survive or isn't worthey, quote me again"there is plenty of room for other Os's" But it's not AMIGA as you have said yourself (Nope. Nobody's saying it is. It's "Amiga-like." If you get a chance, try it out. You'll see how true that statement is. This question of is it or is it not "Amiga" will eventually fade away. It isn't even important or fun to think about anymore.)
I dissagee with your comment on importance. It is important, It is very important for the survival of the company with an OS that has changed the way people compute and spawned the ideas for other OS's.
If it fails, then people will have no choice but to go with another company. AMIGA OS will dissapear, just like GEM, OS2 etc........
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@Shades
By your logic against gary, we'd be long-dead.
Amiga, Inc is just a company. If it goes under, oh well, life goes on. It is not the end of the Amiga community, and possibly not of the OS itself. If the OS vanishes, at least we have 2 remaining choices for a next-generation platform, MorphOS and AROS. Why are you so stedfast on killing the community all for the sake of a company?
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@downix
>>By your logic against gary, we'd be long-dead.
>>Amiga, Inc is just a company. If it goes under, oh well, life goes on. It is not the end of the Amiga community, and possibly not of the OS itself. If the OS vanishes, at least we have 2 remaining choices for a next-generation platform, MorphOS and AROS. Why are you so stedfast on killing the community all for the sake of a company?
That's not true either. There have been updates to our OS from 1.0 to 3.9, hardly dead although takeovers and bankrupsy have strangled develpoment .
>>Amiga, Inc is just a company.
Of cousre AMIGA is a company.
>> If it goes under, oh well, life goes on. It is not the end of the Amiga community, and possibly not of the OS itself.
Sure if they realease the code of the OS to the public, it may.
>> If the OS vanishes, at least we have 2 remaining choices for a next-generation platform, MorphOS and AROS
Well, that's true too, so? I have Slackware and Red Hat and Suse etc....all versions of Linux, which one do you want to use.
>>Why are you so stedfast on killing the community all for the sake of a company?
A little harsh don't you think. Why would I want to kill a commmunity that is the only reason why "the company" is relaesing another version of my favourite OS. ;))
You want an alternative? Go use it. I want to see my OS of choice go forward, I'm not killing anything lol I'm standing up for it.
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@Shades
Amiga, Inc is just a company. If it goes under, oh well, life goes on. It is not the end of the Amiga community, and possibly not of the OS itself. If the OS vanishes, at least we have 2 remaining choices for a next-generation platform, MorphOS and AROS. Why are you so stedfast on killing the community all for the sake of a company?
That's not true either. There have been updates to our OS from 1.0 to 3.5 .
Right here, your logic is absolute nonsence.
What do OS updates have to do with there being 2 additional amiga compatible OS's availible?
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@downix
>>Right here, your logic is absolute nonsence.
What do OS updates have to do with there being 2 additional amiga compatible OS's availible?
What are you talking about, OS updates are 1.0, 1.2, 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9
>>What do OS updates have to do with there being 2 additional amiga compatible OS's availible?
What do you mean, Where is there another AMIGA OS that runs AMIGA?? What Morph? Morph runs Morph OS
What do you mean 2 AMIGA OS's I only know of one.
If you mean OS4? OS4 runs OS4 native apps and emulates what it cant run native for classic apps. It doesn't use Morph though. Morph is it's own OS.
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@Shades
Ahem...
What do you mean, Where is there another AMIGA OS that runs AMIGA?? What Morph? Morph runs Morph OS
I mean just that, there are Amiga compatible OS's out there. They are not another Amiga OS that runs Amiga, they are other OS's that run Amiga software, modules, libraries, even system core files if you are so inclined. If you cannot understand the distinction, than this conversation is at an end. Good day sir.
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@downix
They are not AMIGA OS just because they run modules that work under AMIGA OS lol.
That's the point. Modules are just that, things that run under AMIGA Os. If they don't need AMIGA OS, then they are not AMIGA OS or a module any more as they are not based on AMIGA OS and don't require it to be loaded to function. They have their own code and don't rely on any part of the origanl base AMIGA OS.
They may be compatible to some degree but as far as I know, the source code for AMIGA OS was never released for anyone to copy. Wine allows you to run windows apps under Linux, it runs on the same platform but is not Windows.
No need to get all snooty. It's a debate, It's not a personal attack on you by any means. If you're offended, I am sorry.
Good day to you too :)