Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: JamesR on September 24, 2003, 01:32:59 AM
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Amiga Inc. is in danger of insolvency and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty.
Story by James H. Russell - AO Staff Writer/Editor
Since the demise of Commodore nearly a decade ago, Amiga has had a tumultuous time trying to survive as a computer platform. The ever-shrinking Amiga community has seen owner after owner of the Amiga brand and technologies promise "the second coming" of Amiga only to be rewarded for their loyalty by failed promises, minor technology upgrades, and no significant new products.
A brief history of Amiga Inc.[/i]
The latest owner of the Amiga brand is Amiga Inc., which is headed by Bill McEwen, a former contractor for Amiga Development LLC under Gateway in the late 1990s. Since taking over the Amiga name in January 2000, Amiga Inc. has weathered the brutality of the embittered Amiga community fairly well. To some, it seemed the "curse of Amiga" had finally been lifted. The company's plans for the Amiga Digital Environment (based on Tao's intent real-time operating system) were bold but clever, and the promise to put future Amiga software on any possible device was compelling to say the least.
The key problem many in the community had with Amiga Inc.'s initial plan was an apparent total lack of interest in sustaining and maintaining the Amiga OS as a PC platform. In 2001, Amiga changed its tune and announced that it was outsourcing new Amiga hardware specifications to Eyetech Group, Ltd. and a PPC-native Amiga OS 4 to Hyperion Entertainment, both companies remain profitable to this day selling Amiga products.
For the first two years things seemed to move along fairly well; Amiga had software (the Amiga DE) available for Windows and Linux, and announced deals with major wireless telephone manufacturers - and even Microsoft - for cross-promotional deals. Talk of an IPO excited the community briefly until the company quickly pulled back from an IPO citing the technology market's woes as the reason. The Amiga DE has even gotten as far as CompUSA, where Pocket PC owners can buy the Amiga Entertainment Packs #1 and #2; card with Amiga-branded games on it for their SmartPhones or Windows CE-powered devices.
Signs of Trouble[/i]
Then, last year, the company mysteriously disappeared from its offices in Snoqualmie, Wash., and a year later the property management in charge of the offices auctioned off Amiga's belongings, likely to help pay the debt owed to it by the company.
Many in the community were trepedatious about the auction and what it meant to the company and its future. Bill McEwen reassured the community that Amiga Inc. was not in any trouble, that they had in fact moved to Seattle to be closer to key partners. The nervous community, who had little choice, accepted McEwen's statement.
Many in the community continued to insist that something was wrong - Amiga had already defaulted its customers on a T-shirt promised to purchasers of an AmigaONE coupon pre-sell in 2002 - but Amiga Inc. employees continued to insist vehemently in online forums and at Amiga shows that the company was not in any trouble.
The Litigation[/i]
Recent court documents have surfaced that at last shed light on litigation by former employees and Thendic/Genesi.
Specifically, the court documents state:
* In July 2003, Bill McEwen was scheduled for a deposition in Washington state. His lawyers claimed that he was unable to attend the deposition for health reasons and that he was receiving medical treatment in Montana. Bill Buck of Thendic/Genesi was to attend the first deposition but was unable to attend the reschedule deposition. When asked for specifics, McEwen said only that he was being treated by someone recommended by a “horse riding acquaintance” and would supply no further details.
* Since mid-2001, Amiga Inc. failed to pay employees, paid them late, delivered payment checks that bounced, and without warning to the employees ceased paying insurance premiums. At least one employee accrued thousands of dollars in medical bills that should have been covered by his insurance as a result. Multiple former employees of Amiga Inc. are now suing the company and Bill McEwen for tens of thousands of dollars in back pay; at least one employee has even filed for bankruptcy. In his deposition, McEwen admits that Amiga Inc. has “about a hundred dollars” in its bank account and currently has debts amounting to 2.2 million dollars.
* In November 2000, Amiga Inc. reached an agreement with Thendic Electronic Components (now Thendic/Genesi) to port the Amiga DE OS to a specific list of Thendic devices (including a Windows CE-based device). The contract states that future Thendic devices may be added to this list, but those devices would require the approval of Amiga Inc. to be so added. Pegasos, a PowerPC-based computer that runs an Amiga-compatible operating system and competes with the AmigaONE, did not publicly exist at that time. Thendic/Genesi is now suing Amiga Inc. for breach of contract by failing to port the Amiga DE to Pegasos. The crux of the case will be the legal interpretation of whether or not Amiga unlawfully withheld approval of Pegasos as a new device under that contract.
* Amiga Inc. has filed a countersuit against Thendic/Genesi for "numerous violations of our tradmarks [and] numerous public statements that were false and misleading." When asked what amount Amiga Inc. was asking for, McEwen first joked “fourteen billion dollars... is that too high?” and then admitted that "I don't think we've established a dollar amount."
What's Next for Amiga?[/i]
Trial dates in the documents require that all discovery materials, trial briefs, and trial exhibits must be submitted by November 26th, 2003. Proposed sanctions by Thendic/Genesi’s lawyers require Amiga Inc. to integrate the Amiga DE system into Pegasos or supply source code allowing Thendic/Genesi to integrate the system themselves no later than October 3rd, 2003. It's unclear what Amiga will do in regards to this deadline. A settlement conference is to be held no later than October 2nd, 2003. The trial date is December 1st, 2003.
Obviously, being 2.2 million dollars in debt does not bode well for the future of Amiga Inc. That said, it's not possible to predict the eventual outcome of the litigation or the company's mounting debts.
One hope for a new Amiga computer remains: Amiga Inc. signed agreements with Hyperion and Eyetech that theoretically ensure that they would be able to market and sell Amiga OS 4 and the AmigaONE no matter what happened to Amiga Inc. However, a bankruptcy by Amiga Inc. (should that drastic measure come about) has the potential to change this. In any case, the AmigaONE hardware is shipping now with Linux and a coupon for a free copy of Amiga OS 4 upon its release (Hyperion estimates that Amiga OS 4 for the AmigaONE will be released hopefully in early 2004).
What lies ahead for Amiga Inc. is unclear; certainly the Amiga community, battle-scarred as they are by a decade of failed Amiga revival attempts, will be let down by this news. Unless Amiga is endowed with a significant cash infusion (or is acquired by another company) soon, the future looks grim. To be sure, the community will watch and wait in suspense while the future of the legendary Amiga brand and intellectual property is once again uncertain.
James H. Russell - AO Staff Writer/Editor
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I see a bad moon rising...
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A nice article which explains the current situation very well. Thanks.
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Nice article! Though it makes you a bit sad to read... :cry:
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Good article James, well written.
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Nice, clean and sure to cause a numerous attacs..
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*ducks and covers*
Seriously, a well written commentary of the present situation.
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This is good journalism, certainly it is considering that this is a fan website. The Thendic-Amiga lawsuit... IIRC the text of the contract stated that Amiga Inc. would not "unreasonably" withhold Amiga DE from future Thendic devices. There was nothing in the contract that said the Thendic devices had to run Windows CE.
I would love to see a quote where Bill McEwen explained Amiga Inc.'s getting kicked out of their office was really a planned move "to be closer to key partners."
Again this was a nice article, and of the tenor and tone that needs to characterize amiga.org articles if you people are going to publish a print mag. Good luck, and use recycled paper.
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Well written and explains the situation of Amiga Inc as we have read it on the web.
... and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty.
I am not sure that Hyperion, Eyetech and Genesi would agree to the last part and this part seems to be quite misleading.
New hardware and software has been and is being launched for the PPCAmiga brand. Genesi with the MorphOS system has no financial links to Amiga Inc and can still continue the Amiga brand with/without Amiga Inc. Eyetech and Hyperion stopped production because of past uncertainty but now they seem quite comfortable with their ability to continue with the brand without any aid from Amiga Inc.
With a new mag coming out I am a bit suprised Amiga Org writes such a doom and gloom article about the Amiga in general.
Valan
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I don't know that I consider it "gloom and doom". For the past 8 years, I've seen my share of both good and bad news related to the Amiga name brand and still it survives, and we go on.
For the first time that I recall reading an article about the situation, I think James was able to walk a straight-line right down the middle with a straight discussion of the unavoidably grim facts but still pointing out that all is not yet lost.
Besides, I believe the Amiga.org staff by way of it's new magazine is trying to do what they think best to help the community, and the platform as well. Whether good news or bad, the community needs to know everything that affects this hobby, without crossing the lines one way or another.
I believe they've got a good plan, a good "staff" lined up, and a good chance to establish the magazine as an excellent resource of written Amiga information.
Best of luck.
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Poster: Valan Date: 2003/9/23 23:08:08
Quote:
... and the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty.
I am not sure that Hyperion, Eyetech and Genesi would agree to the last part and this part seems to be quite misleading.
Eyetech and Hyperion may not like the idea, but if Amiga Inc goes into formal bankruptsy, the IP (Amiga trademark) is up to the highest bidder in order to repay the debts. The new owner may not want to #### around with Hyperion or Eyetech (or want much heftier royalities).
Dammy
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The courts might not allow for the continuation of the contract but would most likely allow Hyperion to release OS4 to recoup its loses in development. Not doing so, would have the courts put Hyperion in the same boat as Bolton, Fontenue, and other creditors. Hyperion would, at worst, be given limited use of the nessesary Amiga, Inc. IP to finish and market OS4. Doing so would keep Hyperion form being one of the litigating creditors. After that is what would be up in the air as to OS4 development.
This all really depends on how good the contract with Hyperion and Eyetech is. I only know that the business relationship would be allowed to contunue past the bankruptcy so that the business partner could finish the project(s) that are part of the agreement so as to not have the bankrupcy damage the company's business partners. By letting Hyperion and Eyetech's agreements stand, the royalties that they pay would go in to an account controled by the court used to pay the creditors. The object is to not let the situation harm any other entities while trying to rectify the debt of the now defunct company
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the IT market has picked up a little bit and is continuing to do so. Unfortunatly for Amiga Inc, its not like last time round when any one would throw money at you if you had just any old idea in the IT area.
But fortunatly for Amiga Inc, this time they actualy have products. Amiga Inc have DE apps in stores, and there are more on the way from other companies.
AmigaOS4 is looking good, and with further developments from the A1 the possible markets for AmigaOS and hence Amiga are widening. Although i dont like chances of Amgia Inc getting any more money from anyone, it could happen. Theoriticaly their in a better possition than the were when they first took over the Amiga platform. Despite the lack of money of course :).
I still liked the direction in which AInc had put the platform, it seemed like an obvious progression. Hopfuly, someone else with as much vision as these guys can step in give us a go?
Nice article, well written!
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Something like that was certainly neccessary to sum up recent events for people that are not following the news that closely. It's a good read, but I think some more attention to the details would have been neccessary. In its current form, the article is just an easy target for criticism. I'll give some examples below - please note that I'm neither "defending" Amiga Inc. nor am I questioning the article as a whole.
If you're going to do such a detailed report, and you're going to mention the "2.2 million" number several times, wouldn't it also be neccessary to mention that the vast majority of that amount (1.8 million IIRC) are not real debts, but money owed to the company's executive officers (assuming that McEwen tells the truth, but obviously you are ####uming that)? Bill and Fleecy certainly won't sue themselves for outstanding salaries.
Many in the community were trepedatious about the auction and what it meant to the company and its future. Bill McEwen reassured the community that Amiga Inc. was not in any trouble, that they had in fact moved to Seattle to be closer to key partners.
That's not correct. McEwen did state that they only left their offices to move closer to their partners, but he claimed that nearly a year ago (and not when the auction was announced by the landlord.
The nervous community, who had little choice, accepted McEwen's statement.
That sounds pretty dramatic - and I'm not even sure if that's a valid conclusion (a lot of people didn't accept McEwens Statement).
they would be able to market and sell Amiga OS 4 and the AmigaONE no matter what happened to Amiga Inc. However, a bankruptcy by Amiga Inc. (should that drastic measure come about) has the potential to change this.
You should either come up with a detailed explanation (why Amiga Inc. going bancrupt would "have the potential to change this") or you should avoid stating things like that. Asking the involved parties for a statement regarding this matter before posting it would be a good idea too (McEwen won't answer, but Ben Hermans certainly would).
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Quite an interesting article JamesR, thanks.
BTW, I just read the other day that apparently
both McEwan AND "Fleecy" were sacked by
previous management before they took over??? Is
that true? It could say alot about things ending
up the way they did, it's certainly not
a good sign anyway.
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I have read everything here and still, there are no real FACTS.
I have to agree with Korodny, although things are very quiet, partners of the company are not sueing and AI has not filed for bankrupcy.
This is an opinoin only, I hope it proves wrong.
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This'd be a little less disingenuous if it didn't appear as a front page story right when the A1Lite press has 'the public' looking, after sitting on ANN for what, at least a week?
That said, I've only skimmed it, but it's not that bad. If something has to be 'bad,' it's running it as a boldfaced headline, implying it's a shock come out of the blue, making it look like all the recent *good* news was some sort of last gasp before the doors were shuttered. (When, as it's played out, they were shuttered about a year ago, and somehow things have managed to still stagger on and near the point of shipping.)
This is also the first time I've seen the official-looking 'Staff Writer' heading and such, at least in quite a while; I can buy that with the launch of the magazine, but I'm sure someone's having a chuckle over it. Just as they are with the giant AMIGA and the tiny little (.org) patch on the cover. ;)
I'm not calling doom, gloom, or even shenanigans on anyone, but at this point, I reserve the right to sigh and chuckle when anyone wants me to take any of it seriously, especially disclaimers of bias from any side. :-P
Hey, we're only human!
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I have read everything here and still, there are no real FACTS.
I have to agree with Korodny, although things are very quiet, partners of the company are not sueing and AI has not filed for bankrupcy.
??? What do you think are not real facts, the cases against Amiga Inc by Matt, Bolten & others are part of the public record, Bill McEwen's deposition is part of the public record, what exactly is not a fact in your mind here??
-Tig
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Poster: SHADES Date: 2003/9/24 1:43:13
I have read everything here and still, there are no real FACTS.
Oh, but there are alot of FACTS in the story. You may not like them, but that does not take away from their status of being FACTS.
I have to agree with Korodny, although things are very quiet, partners of the company are not sueing and AI has not filed for bankrupcy.
Remember, bankruptsy can be non-voluntary. Creditors, and IIRC, or the courts, can force a company into bankruptsy regardless on what the executive officers wishes are.
Dammy
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I find this quite a sad read.
The Amiga name has been around for a good time & it will be sad to lose the brand.
Saying that though, I always have & will continue to wish Eyetech & Hyperion the absolute best of luck in their projects.
I have an AmigaOne & even though will never see my $50 coupon (Really though, I don't mind. If they needed it, they needed it) I would do it again if Hyperion needed it.
If Amiga doesn't survive this, you will be missed. But saying that, as always, chin up everyone & here's to the future.
FuZion.
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I wish Hyperion and Eyetech the best of luck.
I relly hope that hey can continue with the amiga as it is now.
New HW and new OS upgrades.
Nice article :o>
I would not mind to give a little extra, if Hyperion needed it. The products I have bought from them so far have been great, and there have been good support on them also.
BTW. I need an A1Lite with AOS4.0
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An excellent article, James, and damn high time that someone tracked down some facts in this latest Amiga debacle. I guess the dream is dead. No, not the common, ordinary dream of new hardware/OS. The hardware is out, and I guess OS 4 will see release at some point (then again, I was firmly convinced at one time that the Boxer would come out!). I'm not even talking about the DE; that too came about, albeit in a limited fashion and not nearly as fully fledged as it was supposed to. I am talking about the OE, the Operating Enviroment that would have run on all hardware and seamlessly networked them all, and allowed access of everything by anything else and given you the best performance a given hardware platform could offer (rather like communism, only with computers and actually workable!). I guess it was all puffery, or may as well be at this point. Damn. What the hell's the point anymore? :-(
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Nice article. Still missing some pieces of the puzzle though. How about this AmigaMCC or something ?
Where is that coming from ? How is it tied in with A.Inc etc...
Basically I think the main thing is the future of Eyetech and Hyperion, if they can keep going, even if they have to call it EyetechOne and Hyperion OS4 then basically nothing is lost. Genesi already proved that you can apeal to the Amiga mob with an Amiga-like product without the actual name. There's even scenarios thinkable where finally OS4 ends up on the Peg.
In short, nothing is lost and we are still closer to a "new" Amiga than we have ever been, heck, some would even say it's already among us...
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If you're going to do such a detailed report, and you're going to mention the "2.2 million" number several times, wouldn't it also be neccessary to mention that the vast majority of that amount (1.8 million IIRC) are not real debts, but money owed to the company's executive officers (assuming that McEwen tells the truth, but obviously you are ####uming that)? Bill and Fleecy certainly won't sue themselves for outstanding salaries.
The issue is Bill is either lying about the total debt (which I think is most likely) or lying about the big 3 being owed 1.8 million. Why??? Bill McEwen is saying that all other debts is about 400K, basically we know that number is way lower then it really is, but lets add it up for fun.
Bolten Peck (with Interest) 80K+
Matt Fontenot
(Interest starts tomorrow) 37K+
Management Group 50K
Delivery Service 15K
CAM 65K
Party Pack 70K
Now that Total is 317K, so apparently either 83K is enough to pay back wages for 11 people for the last 15 months (plus the paychecks they missed ala Bolten & Peck) or Bill is severly underestimating the debt he currently has outstanding. Thats right either Ray, Gary and the rest of the gang work for less then $500 a month, or Bills number is inaccurate. Frankly the back salaries for the non big 3, virtually has to be over 1/2 a million and of course increasing weekly and could be quite a bit larger. If they quit, McEwen would owe them double that (plus interest) according to Washington State Law, (both Matt & Bolten got that in their cases).
You should either come up with a detailed explanation (why Amiga Inc. going bancrupt would "have the potential to change this") or you should avoid stating things like that. Asking the involved parties for a statement regarding this matter before posting it would be a good idea too.
When a US company declares (or is forced into) bankruptcy, the judge in the bankruptcy court (especially if its a liquidation) usually declares null & void all contracts made by the company. Thus the two partners would not have their licenses with Amiga Inc. There are lots of sites where you can read all about Corporate bankruptcy, but understand, Amiga Inc will no qualify for a reorganization (only liquidation) unless they find a white knight with a big pocket book.
-Tig
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A more accurate title for this thread would be "Amiga.org loses it's objectivity and integrity, becomes Genesi.org, and is now not worth reading".
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So is this a taster of Amiga.org magazine or just a rejected article?
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@Tig
Now now don't be silly.
You know as well as I do that Party Pack and CAM promotions
would not be included in that figure unless a class action
was undertaken and was successful.
You know nothing of the status of the employment of the
Amiga Inc staf, how they have been paid ( salaried? options? per
profit? voluntary ).
the judge in the bankruptcy court (especially if its a liquidation) usually declares null & void all contracts made by the company
Really upsets you that Hyperion and Eyetech may continue to
trade unnaffected doesn't it. I notice you have finally allowed that
chink of doubt to creep into your argument "usually" and you still
miss out who the contract is with - or perhaps you do not know yourself?
Still, in order for there to be fear there first has to be uncertainty
and a dose of doubt.
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@Red_Melons and DaveP:
Ya know there's an old saying "don't shoot
the messenger(s)"
And as far as "arguments" go I think the facts
stand pretty sadly on their own accord..
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@-D-
Theres an old saying, before you pull the trigger on a loaded gun, first aim it.
In otherwords, where do I shoot James "messenger"?
:-?
This has all the hallmarks of a magazine editorial article, from the "Staff Writer" to the way it is structured. Hence my first comment.
My second comment was aimed at Bill "Tigger" Evans holding forth his usual "expert" legal opinion.
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This isn't a comment on the contents of the article, but IMO this would be much better placed under an "Editorials" section on the left, like interviews, with a news item saying that it had been added. However objective the article may be (I don't know the facts well enough so I cannot comment), it's certainly not "news" like everything else there is.
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Nice article. Although I'm not too sure how impartial Amiga.org (AO) is anymore. Eg is this Genesi propeganda? Don't forget that AO is hosted on Genesi servers. Several AO former team members now work or are affiliated with Genesi.
I'm not saying that I'm against Genesi at all. It's just that if Genesi are suing Amiga perhaps this story might be slightly more biased than it should be.
Thats my 5 pence worth...
Thanks, Norm ;-)
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Oh here we go again, out come the Genesi troops to do some character ####assination (once again) since the A1 lite and the OS4 demo may have gained a bit of interest from outside the community.
Look to past events and everytime something positive and Amiga.inc related happens within a day and (sometimes hours) up pops a genesi "news" item or this type of attack happens.
You really are predictable guys. :-(
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This is not news, it´s telling the genesis side of things one more time. Please take time to tell us all the crap genesis did to put Amiga Inc. in bad light.
If the genesis suit against Amiga Inc. sends amiga inc. over the edge and in to bankruptcy,
I will leave the amiga scene for good.
Most of the debt Amiga Inc. owes, they owe in wages to them selfs, the shareholders. Amiga Inc. is just waiting for OS4 to be released to back their effort to raise more money. The company is on hold untill there is a range of products to make the firm look more attractive to investors.
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- edited by mikeymike: trolling -
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@KennyR
I think you just went too far again Kenny.
But first, in answer to the salient part of your post:
And I think Genesi has got better things to do that try to win over the last few hundred fanatics by attacking AInc.
Who sayes that is their motivation? A dead Amiga Inc would be good business for Genesi. Else why would they want AmigaDE which has been openly criticised by Bill Buck in the past? Who sayes the number of "fanatics" numbers only in the hundreds. Sales figures I have seen put the number of currently sold and dispatched A1 boards at over 1300 units - and thats BEFORE AOS4 is out.
It has a product and a willing market outside the myopic fanaticism of the dregs which remain of the Amiga community.
Really? How many outside of the "dregs which remain of the Amiga community" bought a Pegasos? Which of the 500 odd that bought rather than were given?
As yet, what willing market? Peg2 is aimed at development and developers, Peg3 may be aimed at consumers.
No need to be so rude.
Don't flatter yourselves that the MOS people would even want the all the name-followers and the crazies.
Well once could be as rude as you and say they have a lot of followers who are there only because they are anti-name and crazy.
Still, I feel you are being insulting and you have insulted me - according to you I am either crazy or a name follower - I am neither. I am just a consumer. In fact your aggressiveness is indicative of what stopped me buying a Peg1 in the first place.
It's not as if they can code, is it? (No, just beg for ports...)
For gods sake, if this post of yours Kenny remains unmoderated and you remain unwarned then Amiga.org needs a kick up the bum.
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Guys... Amiga Inc. is not our church...
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After my little outburst last week about A.org I have calmed down :)
The article above is on the whole fair, although ther are two points that I feel require a little mention:
1) It doesn't mention that Genesi went after the Amiga trademark to cause Amiga problems.
2) The mention of Amiga's countersuit is valid, but the comments and quotes shown afterwoods are only there to agrevate, and add little if any to the topic.
3) According to the articles breakdown of the original Amiga/Genesi contract (and I am only going on the words here as I have not seeen the original) it says that:
The contract states that future Thendic devices may be added to this list, but those devices would require the approval of Amiga Inc. to be so added.
Surely thats means that if Amiga do not wish to approve a device to add to the list they do not have to, thus rendering Genesi's case irrelevent?
Rassilon
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Let the courts decide.
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@KennyR
If it's already stone dead, then why this "news" item?
Deny it all you want its plain to see my reasons above for the fact it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME!
The /. article on the A1-Lite, Downix appears telling everyone not to bother with the A1 as it's not "AMIGA" then says something along the lines of "buy a peg 2 instead". Could he actually be worried that the A1-lite could be a success?
No doubt someone will post a link to this "news" in that article to do further damage.
For something thats already dead, you guys are making sure it stays that way.
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I wish C= never went bust ....
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@DaveP
Who sayes that is their motivation? A dead Amiga Inc would be good business for Genesi. Else why would they want AmigaDE which has been openly criticised by Bill Buck in the past?
I don't pretend to be privy to the inner workings of companies I don't have any connection to (unlike certain others), and I'm not willing to conjecture. I don't understand why they would want the DE at all - from where I'm looking from, it's worthless. Broken. It probably just comes down to money and pride. The whole DE thing means nothing to me.
But what would Genesi gain if AInc went bankrupt? Community...? No. Superior hardware designs... not all that likely. Superior software... hardly. You tell me, because I sure as hell don't know why Genesi waste the court money challenging AInc - what's the difference between a competitor who doesn't compete and no competitor at all? None in my eyes. AInc are currently a non-entity.
Really? How many outside of the "dregs which remain of the Amiga community" bought a Pegasos? Which of the 500 odd that bought rather than were given?
Admittedly, not many. However, people bought a Pegasos who would never have considered an A1, and who until they got a chance to try it probably wouldn't have ventured outside x86. Its ability to run MacOS for the fraction of the price of a real Mac seems to be a current sales pitch. However its strength to bring back users from PC and Linux scenes is already evident.
No need to be so rude.
I'm sorry if the truth tends to bruise fragile egos. The Amiga community is not what it was. The quality that made it sparkle in the 90s is almost gone, absorbed by better solutions. And I don't mean MOS.
Sales figures I have seen put the number of currently sold and dispatched A1 boards at over 1300 units - and thats BEFORE AOS4 is out.
Sales figures that are not authenticated and could be wildly exaggerated. The number of Pegasos and A1 users could be closer than you think.
Well once could be as rude as you and say they have a lot of followers who are there only because they are anti-name and crazy.
Most Pegasos owners don't care about Genesi. They bought a Pegasos because it was the best option available to continue using a Amigalike environment. It was cheap, powerful, and available with a ready to use OS. In fact, you will probably find that some of the harshest criticism of Genesi's PR-before-users tactics comes from Pegasos users.
Still, I feel you are being insulting and you have insulted me - according to you I am either crazy or a name follower - I am neither.
If you choose to let that epithet fall on you, so be it. You must want to be insulted, since these words don't really describe you at all. I supplied the description, it was you who wrapped it around yourself.
I am just a consumer. In fact your aggressiveness is indicative of what stopped me buying a Peg1 in the first place.
Ah, really. My aggressiveness. I, who, until the last batch of Peg boards, were as cruel and critical of all things MOS as I currently am against AInc. No, I'm afraid you've got that wrong. Even if you were put off by mouthy blue trolls, as I sure as hell was, you would have got a Peg if you wanted one. That's exactly what I did. And guess what: half of the things the mouthy blue trolls said came true. It's when that happens you start to wonder whether you've backed the wrong side.
Why not with you, I wonder: it's not stupidity, certainly. Stubborness, maybe. But the time may come when you finally realise that the people you defend so staunchly are not worthy of your loyalty, and that the things you worked so hard to deny simply become undeniable.
For gods sake, if this post of yours Kenny remains unmoderated and you remain unwarned then Amiga.org needs a kick up the bum.
I didn't say anything that isn't already known and painfully obvious. Truth hurts.
Freedom of speech is one of AO's great strengths. Other community website(s) seem greatly lacking in that department.
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I think it's very nice to see an unbiased article for once, an article describing the Amiga Inc situation based on facts and not opinions and emotions. Really refreshing! Last time I read articles like that was in the Commodore era, or shortly after it, when all the big Amiga Magazines still existed.
Thank you! :-)
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@James H. Russell:
the AmigaONE hardware is shipping now with Linux and a coupon
There is no coupon.
And how is this news?
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@kees:
Nah, we'd never have had all the flaming fun we've had over the past decade ;-).
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Freedom of speech I agree with Kenny, freedom to be rude I do not.
Ponder the difference between these two statements:
#1 President Bush made an error of judgement over Iraq, this will be the way history remembers him. People that side with Bush at the moment either fail to see this or give him too much leeway.
#2 President Bush is a retard, he f**ked up over Iraq. Those that stick up for him are just crazies and cultists.
I do not wish to be insulted, you insulted me as you insulted anyone who fails to be moved by your invective.
As for my reasons for not buying a Pegasos, they remain as a matter of principle. I will not buy them as long as "mouthy blue trolls" continue to be as rude, insulting and devisive as you so wonderfully demonstrated. If you and others put your arguments with less venom and vitriol and a damn sight more respect for your fellow Amiga community members then I would not feel so alienated.
Instead of buying a Pegasos, I have bought ( each time I had the free money available and seriously thought about it I end up reading something like the above from you ):
1. A playstation 2
2. A portable DVD player and LCD screen
3. An LCD screen TV
4. A new PC
5. A Compaq IPaq
What will it be this time I wonder?
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It's not a news item, L8-X. It's an article. There's nothing new here.
As for the A1-lite, if it costs something like £400 for a motherboard, then it won't be a success, whether you can blame that on Genesi or not. AInc's full demise might actually put that price down: less licencing to pay.
For something thats already dead, you guys are making sure it stays that way.
Aren't you annoyed by the people who keep saying Elvis is alive even though it's obvious he's dead?
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@ Rassilon
1) It doesn't mention that Genesi went after the Amiga trademark to cause Amiga problems.
Hehe, come on, do you *really* think that Genesi for a single moment really thought they had a chance to aquire the trademarks by sending in that form? That was just for the laughs, to make it visible in another way how the situation is over at Amiga Inc. Of course, some people still failed to see it ...
BTW, the article also doesn't mention the starving children in Africa, Osama Bin-Laden, Saddam, etc. And you know why? Because it was an article about Amiga Inc and their problems!
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@ Wilse
And how is this news?
Nothing here is new! It's not news, it's an article, a "chronical" (if that is the right word?) ...
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I'm no legal expert ... but maybe its wise for Amiga Inc. to give up and sell their trademarks to Hyperion and/or Eyetech ...
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To the people who are claiming that this is a pro-Genesi biassed article, would you like to point out just how it is being biassed?
I am not "pro-Genesi". I have nothing to do with Genesi and little or nothing to say about their products, however I don't see anything biassed about this article. An article about Amiga Inc's misfortunes up to the present does not mean a biassed article. As someone else on this thread "Amiga Inc is not your church".
Something else - if things continue as bleakly as they have for Amiga Inc recently, you should expect to read about them elsewhere on non-Amiga news sites. Will they all be "biassed towards Genesi" as well? Or is it just that we're interested in the Amiga's future, so therefore we must have an angle with this article?
Furthermore, the people who consider this article biassed - how would you say things are at the moment? If you wish to do a writeup of your take on Amiga Inc's present situation I'd be more than willing to read it.
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This so called professional company ripped off Amiga users, worst mistake they ever did and deserve to die for that alone.
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DaveP wrote:
Freedom of speech I agree with Kenny, freedom to be rude I do not.
Ponder the difference between these two statements:
#1 President Bush made an error of judgement over Iraq, this will be the way history remembers him. People that side with Bush at the moment either fail to see this or give him too much leeway.
#2 President Bush is a retard, he f**ked up over Iraq. Those that stick up for him are just crazies and cultists.
My choice of response would depend on the context. Speaking in a controlled, adult thread it would be #1. Speaking in a thread where the average statements included "well, they deserved it", "who cares about dead arabs?", or I saw the pictures of civilians horribly maimed, my response would be #2, and my conscience would be clear.
An extreme example, maybe, but I hope the comparison is clear.
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Excuse me, I am not saying that this article is biased, although frankly I fail to understand why it is even posted now rather than a month ago when it would have been more pertinent. However, that is a minor issue.
What I dislike is that you continue to allow an insulting tone and for those that have chosen not to buy into Pegasos be described as "crazies" and "followers of the name". KennyR clearly posted flamebait. Yet it still goes unmoderated.
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Very clear to me Kenny, so why did you chose to reply in the tone of #2.
I would expect an intelligent adult to initially try to raise the tone, not lower it. Then, if this fails, try to talk in the same language e.g. #2.
The first is being respectful, and putting the point of view across ( although light on rationale ), the second similarly puts the point of view across but liberally insults too.
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What I dislike is that you continue to allow an insulting tone and for those that have chosen not to buy into Pegasos be described as "crazies" and "followers of the name".
Nowhere in this thread will you find anywhere where I called people who didn't buy a Pegasos as crazies or name-followers. Those descriptions stand on their own merits. Please stop squeezing my words to make them fit your own agenda.
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why you don´t make a news article on the accounts of genesis? Or whichever Pegasos has been sold to date? ah, that doesn´t interest.
whenever leaves the good news-(amigaone running in aone or amigaone lite )-related to amiga(original), you jump like noxious animals on the prey. Every day I like except this.
it is already known, the one that pays, commands
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I'd say you two settle this is private ...
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:flame:
I wish C= never went bust ....
Yeah, so do I...
If only I could go back in time! ;-)
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@Rassilon
1) It doesn't mention that Genesi went after the Amiga trademark to cause Amiga problems.
That's because any such comment would not be factual. It would be little more than speculative propaganda, whether the writer believes it to be true or not.
2) The mention of Amiga's countersuit is valid, but the comments and quotes shown afterwoods are only there to agrevate, and add little if any to the topic.
The quotes are also factual, and they do illustrate the care and attention taken by Amiga Inc when filing the countersuit. Actually, here the article may be wrong. Didn't Amiga Inc make a point of saying it's a counter-claim, not a counter-suit?
3) According to the articles breakdown of the original Amiga/Genesi contract (and I am only going on the words here as I have not seeen the original) it says that:
Quote:
The contract states that future Thendic devices may be added to this list, but those devices would require the approval of Amiga Inc. to be so added.
Surely thats means that if Amiga do not wish to approve a device to add to the list they do not have to, thus rendering Genesi's case irrelevent?
Only if you ####ume that the contract does not require specific reasons for Amiga Inc. to reject a product, such as inadequate support. Usually the conditions for acceptance or rejection are enumerated somewhere, so that contracted parties cannot make such decisions on a whim.
The actual validity of the claim is something the courts will have to decide.
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Kenny
I am not twisting your words to suit my agenda. You call the remaining Amiga users "dregs", "crazies" and "name followers". Your tone is insulting in the least.
Given two moderators have been here now, and failed to moderate your post ( and the responses to it ) I have to conclude that flamebait against those that are waiting for AOS4 and AmigaONE and who put counter arguments up for Amiga Inc is now acceptable under site policy and say goodbye to Amiga.org.
Now Kees, will you please delete my account. I have as promised stuck around to reconsider but it is exactly this kind of occurance ( and now see KennyR trying to distance himself from his own behaviour ) that leaves a bad taste in my mouth as an Amiga.org reader.
I certainly will not be logging in again.
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I'd say you two settle this is private ...
:roflmao:
NOoooo!! This is entertainment for me! :-D
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@ KennyR
Aren't you annoyed by the people who keep saying Elvis is alive even though it's obvious he's dead?
Presumably it's your job to tell them they're wrong? There are countless loonies on the Internet KennyR, but to argue with them as fervently as they do will only get you counted among them on the loony scale.
@ everyone
I'm not implying that those who disagree with this article are loonies. They're not.
As for lack of moderation on this thread, everyone knew it would be a "hot topic" in more ways than one. To try and actively moderate it would result in a virtually entirely obliterated comments board, and then people would be pointing fingers that some comments got moderated when they shouldn't and vice versa. For every comment moderated there would probably be five comments just as bad and worse to replace it.
So, the only way I'm likely to moderate this thread will probably result in less than ten comments in total on it by this evening.
- edited by mikeymike: ok, so I did do some moderation :-) -
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.
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As this article is trying to summarize a number of existing facts it would be helpful to include a sources section so people can check the facts out.
It also should be said up-front that amiga.org server is hosted by Genesi, though the writer is trying to be impartial – rather than these facts being added later in the comments section.
I think doing both of the above would help calm future flame wars.
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I'm no legal expert ... but maybe its wise for Amiga Inc. to give up and sell their trademarks to Hyperion and/or Eyetech ...
I'm no legal expert either. But to be honest the more I think about this the more I reacon its a good idea.
Amiga as "name" gets to carry on with the people who saved it. No licencing costs. Hyperion take want they want from DE and intergrate it into OS4.
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This is not news, it´s telling the genesis side of things one more time. Please take time to tell us all the crap genesis did to put Amiga Inc. in bad light.
If the genesis suit against Amiga Inc. sends amiga inc. over the edge and in to bankruptcy,
I will leave the amiga scene for good.
Most of the debt Amiga Inc. owes, they owe in wages to them selfs, the shareholders. Amiga Inc. is just waiting for OS4 to be released to back their effort to raise more money. The company is on hold untill there is a range of products to make the firm look more attractive to investors.
Then please blame themselves, and the shareholders for sending them over the edge (which is still uncertain). The whole Genesi affair is just a drop in the ocean, and they are NOT DEMANDING MONEY, unlike the former Amiga Inc employees, and the current leadership. Genesi has nothing to do with that except that they try to get advantage of the situation (which is pretty much understandable business-wise) - and I repeat they are NOT the CAUSE.
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I think doing both of the above would help calm future flame wars.
I'm sure all the flamers here know all the facts. That's not the problem.
Some people just get too emotional about their computers!
The ignorance expressed above had nothing to do with not knowing/believing the facts IMHO.
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@KennyR
If it's not news, then why is it posted under Miscellaneous news then?
If it's not news (which so many people are stating) then move it to the appropriate forum.
I say to you it was placed on the frontpage to stir up trouble and have yet another kick at Amiga.Inc, no other reason.
Oh the evlis thing, I don't know if you realize this, but A.inc hasn't filed for bankruptcy (yet) and therefore is still "alive" and I hope they continue to live.
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I certainly will not be logging in again.
Goodbye DaveP.... :-o
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Nice article... which arguably should be in the section marked 'articles'.......
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I say to you it was placed on the frontpage to stir up trouble and have yet another kick at Amiga.Inc, no other reason.
Totally and utterly agree.
:roll:
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Man, are you touchy and soft-skinned or what! Amiga.org has forever been quite open for free discussions, open for everyone. Moderation has been - and SHOULD be - only a *last resort* to remove crystal clear cases of abuse! If you can't handle the freedom, then go away! I can recommend a site with Stalin-type "My Way or the High Way" moderation, a site where a coin has only one side, perhaps that should suit you better?
And I hope by God that Amiga.org won't turn into that kind of site.
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Thanks, I'm glad you liked the article. It hurt to write it; honestly, I used to be a champion of AI; now I'm just depressed. Pegasos = eh. I'm not red or blue, not even purple. Now I'm just gray.
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Quote:
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I say to you it was placed on the frontpage to stir up trouble and have yet another kick at Amiga.Inc, no other reason.
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Totally and utterly agree.
What? They should write articles and hide them away so no-one can find them?
I think it's funny, no AMUSING, to see how people fall into these kind of discussions. Instead of discussing the contents of the article, you simply starts some meta-discussions about whether it's news or not, if it's posted in the forum or in the news section, and meaningless stuff like that.
I mean, MY GAAWD! :-o
OK, in the future perhaps the chronicals/articles should be posted in the "sections" section, but nevertheless, when a new article is posted, it's definitely news (perhaps not the contents itself, but the fact that a new article has been released) ...
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Kees , why don´t you erase the article? (as my last post)
Cause the article is in itself a :flame:
to moderate does not mean only the forums but the news too. :-x
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What? They should write articles and hide them away so no-one can find them?
People still want to read articles even if they disagree with them, however the way this article is presented it does look a bit like 'HOT OF THE PRESS EXCLUSIVE NEWS' (quote taken from crappy UK tabloids).
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Because, as painfull as it is, its based on facts ... Amiga Inc. is in danger :-(
Your comment was a trolling one.
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"Your comment was a trolling one."
ok,you are right, and I request excuses to you.
but it´s very suspicious that always leaves east type the news when there are good news on about aone/os4.
I never see the negative news on of genesi in this site.
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@ Redentor5
Is there any 'negative news about Genesi' you think we've missed?
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i agree , just another try to make some noise.
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I actually bolded the top line to make it look sundered from the story. If you click Read More, the damned thing puts the summary up top and makes it look like it's the first paragraph of the story, which it's not. The Staff Writer thing also helps keep the summary separate from the story.
Anyhow, it's been awhile since AO has posted an original article, and I personally have been pretty inactive the last couple years. But "Meesa back!"
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I never see the negative news on of genesi in this site.
Have they ripped off amiga users like Amiga Inc has? if so please post some information.
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You're welcome, and thank you. I wish the news wasn't so grim, though. I'd much rather have written a story about AI succeeding. :(
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ok,you are right, and I request excuses to you.
No problem :-)
I post good news about OS4 alot ...
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"Is there any 'negative news about Genesi' you think we've missed?"
I don´t know it, but I can´t be thought that there isn´t any.
You can think that this is not a good moment to make that article. I don´t understand that you look for making this article.
We hoped to see new products of Amigainc.,(hyperion, eyetech) not that remembers to us badly that is, constantly. That we already know it
:-(
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@DaveP
Come on man, no need to run off like a baby... so KennyR flamed ya!!!, so whaaaaat?...your acting more immature then he is by running off like that... but if you fail to see it my way, then I can at least say I will miss you and I hope you return someday.
@All
I think this article is good, un-biased... and at this time its long overdue
@KennyR
See we agree on some things done we? :-D
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@ meerschaum
I understand daveP his anger though ...
Humans tend to say insulting things on an online forum more easily then they would in real life ..
And we're all human ....
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We are so close to OS4.0 coming out... The AmigaOne board WORKS !.. (and it will still come out).
There are other options as well (Genesi)..
It all looks like something GREAT is about to happen with Amiga Products.
I really don't see the purpose is going over the same depressing news that was posted before.... We have had nothing but depressing news for the last 10 years....
NOW, good news is coming with OS4.0...
If it is a good product SOMEONE will continure promoting it and selling it... I look forward to more successes with the Amiga.... :-) :-) :-)
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@Kees
Ya I know wich is why people shouldnt take forums as seriousely, I mean... its a damn forum!!!... if someone offends you offend them back, running off is just stupid.
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This forum is all starting to sound more and more like ANN...
That is not good.....
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@meerschaum
You should be able to take a forum seriously.
Isn't that why we all use this forum? -Amiga.org is, in my eyes, a forum to be taken serious indeed...
-And Sorry for interupting your message to kees
About the article:
I really think it's ok... It summed up some things in a good way, and even gave me an overall view on the situation, maybe it's not news to all of you guys but this article gives people a chance of review the situation again..
And I definetly think it should be on the front page... How many users are on amiga.org? -And how many of these all know the current status of Amiga Inc.
-It's depressing (news) anyhow...
-LP
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@LP
no need to be sorry about interrupting my messege to Kees.
I dont mean to say this or other forums are just 'lie filled nonsense' or whatever, but you cannot take this so seriousely your going to run away if someone calls you a name, or get very angry because a moderator didnt do what you wanted them to. Its a private website with individuals posting in the forums.
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Don't forget that AO is hosted on Genesi servers.
Wrong. I have zero idea where you got this idea.
Several AO former team members now work or are affiliated with Genesi.
Absolutely true. What's your point? There are only Targhan and myself, and if you've noticed (which I'll bet you have conveniently NOT noticed), both Dave and I have pretty much stayed clear of any conversations, decisions, or interests in Amiga.org. To put it damned bluntly, we simply don't have time for it any more.
This thread was a bit different (and is my first real post in what seems like forever) because it's important. No one can help the fact that there is a large segment of this community who doesn't like and randomly refuses to accept the facts.
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Nothing here is new! It's not news, it's an article, a "chronical" (if that is the right word?) ...
Really?
I was under the impression that this section was for News articles.
My mistake.
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Check yer FACTS, man. These look real enough to me. Even it the guy that got the public records is abit of a wack job. Nothing is stopping anyone else from doing the same. Try doing some research.
Publicly Available Court Documents (http://www.merlancia.us/amigabk)
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It also should be said up-front that amiga.org server is hosted by Genesi,
Again, not sure where you EVER got this idea. It's a prime example of rumors being spread without basis of fact.
We're hosted by rackshack.net on servers that we have paid for, for about the next 14 months. Rackshack is one of the world's largest dedicated server providers, serving literally millions of domains and hosting literally thousands of servers.
Cite your proof on this one please, because I, for one, am very sick of hearing it.
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@meerschaum
I see your point, and as you say there is no need for people to run away if they get
-pushed to far-, but I do know how rough people can be sometimes (some more than others), and people should still have respect for eachother.
I'd guess we agree, so I'll stop this (somewhat silly) discussion (started by my self) now :-)
It was simply a reminder on the aspects of seriousity in forums ;-)...
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but it´s very suspicious that always leaves east type the news when there are good news on about aone/os4.
Actually, no, it's not. I know that James had been agonizing over the writing of this article, having put it through several revisions over the last several weeks.
When writing an indepth editorial, you cannot plan around the news which is being posted in the meanwhile. For example, during the time James took to piece this together (while reading and absorbing all the court documentation), Amiga Inc could have easily either gotten a new investor or they could have physically filed bankruptcy. Either of which would have negated any real need for this article.
There was new court evidence even presented after James started writing the article for which he had to back up and adjust again.
James did a great job and is not to blame if certain people simply cannot handle the facts.
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Frankly I really don't understand what all the conflict is about. This article seems to be pretty clear cut and it isn't like many of us haven't suspected that something is going on at A Inc. I had hoped it may not be this serious but that is life. We shall have to wait and see as always.
Having been an Amiga person since 1990, I have watched with joy or trepidation the whole Amiga saga. That doesn't make me any more qualified than anyone else but here are a few opinions. What the Amiga needs, no matter who runs it, is a clear cut idea/business plan. Frankly Commodore lost sight of that including just about every other owner since then. The ideas I have liked the best since the demise of Commodore have been Gateway's revised kernal based on QNX and A Inc's Amiga Anywhere. However neither of those have come to fruition. Gateway decided to get out of the Amiga business and frankly, I haven't seen any clear direction from AInc in the past few years. Now we may not have the chance. Then again we might. However it isn't clear how.
I am not a Genesi person. I planned (maybe still plan) on buying an A1 and AOS4. However the one thing that Genesi appears to have gonig for it is a strong idea of where it wants to go. So do Hyperion and Eyetech. A Inc appears to me to have been floundering for the past couple of years. Now we have this article. Frankly, for the Amiga to survive based on AOS3.9, then I think we would be better off to have Hyperion in charge of the software as they know what they want to do and have a direction. Eyetech is working the hardware though don't be surprised if other hardware manufacturers get involved if they think there is money to be made ( Look at Merlancia who are trying to make an Amiga PPC motherboardl). Yet both Hyperion and Eyetech KNOW what they want to do. That is what may make the A1 work well enough to continue the Amiga in the A Inc direction.
So, while it would be tragic if A Inc goes bankrupt, it may end up being a blessing in disguise if Hyperion or someone else with a history of making their plans come to fruition takes over. Even if Genesi were to buy out A Inc (if something like that is even a possibility), you would have the advantage to not having this stupid split in a ridiculously small computer market. In the end, as much as I would love there to be an Amiga when I'm old and grey, I have a feeling it will still be an old A3000 or other "Classic" Amiga running whatever OS is out there while everyone else has HAL 9000s and laughs behind their backs at that "crazy old coot".
Prmetime
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@Wayne:
Either of which would have negated any real need for this article.
I don't see that there *is* any real need for this article.
Could you please explain to me what this *need* is?
James did a great job and is not to blame if certain people simply cannot handle the facts.
I agree that it is a well written, interesting article.
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@Wayne
Again, not sure where you EVER got this idea. It's a prime example of rumors being spread without basis of fact.
I'm afraid it's down to the nice folks on "the other site". Some bright spark realised that Amiga.org and MorphZone were hosted on the same server, and therefore "deduced" that the Amiga.org server must be owned by Genesi and that they are clearly funding the entire operation.
This little "proof" is wheeled out periodically but regularly on "the other site" as evidence that this is a Genesi controlled site, and the locals are lapping it up.
You're wasting your time telling them it's not true, because they invariably "know better".
Some things will never change.
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@Wilse
I don't see that there *is* any real need for this article.
Could you please explain to me what this *need* is?
and then...
I agree that it is a well written, interesting article.
Methinks you've answered your own question. There is always a need for well written, interesting articles, particularly when they cover relevant subjects that have previously only been reported amidst monumental hysteria on both sides.
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I'm afraid it's down to the nice folks on "the other site". Some bright spark realised that Amiga.org and MorphZone were hosted on the same server, and therefore "deduced" that the Amiga.org server must be owned by Genesi and that they are clearly funding the entire operation.
Well, that explains it. Thanks very much. What I find amazing is that we bought our own services at Rackshack.net (which is now "Everyone's Internet") but Dave got a friend of his at IBM (Gary Sarff) to host morphzone.org on a virtual domain on a machine that Gary himself was leasing from Rackshack. (Remember, this is WELL before Dave was ever employed or even approached by Genesi)
Dave then actively helped me (and Amiga.org) in the transition off of Amiga's server (in their office) to the servers at rackshack.net, but the fact that we use the same hosting provider is supposed to be some sort of damnable proof that Amiga.org is hosted by Genesi...? Incredible leap of logic..
For what it's worth, we're using rackshack.net at the recommendation of Dave, Gary Sarff, Damien McKenna, and about a dozen people at Intercosmos. So far I think it's worked out pretty well.
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@BillH:
Methinks you've answered your own question. There is always a need for well written, interesting articles, particularly when they cover relevant subjects that have previously only been reported amidst monumental hysteria on both sides.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the need for a well written, interesting article to be presented as *news*.
Until today, I thought a suitable forum was the designated place for this type of thing.
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@takemehomegrandma
the reason that Genesi's attempt at getting the trademark should have been mentioned is because of exactly what you said:
Hehe, come on, do you *really* think that Genesi for a single moment really thought they had a chance to aquire the trademarks by sending in that form? That was just for the laughs
Genesi did it to cause trouble for Amiga inc - the article is about Amiga and the troubles they had - your statement goes to show that their troubles were not just caused by bad management. Now before you say they should have renewed the trademark, well people under pressure forget things, we are after all human!
@ Bill Hoggett
bbrv said MANY times on Amiga.org/Ann.lu that they were trying to get the trademarks, so therefore it is factual. Someone even posted their application on Ann.lu IIRC
As for the extra comments all they illustrate is that Bill McEwen did not know the finer details of the suit filed by his lawyer, not uncommon when dealing with the ins and outs of corporate law.
Rassilon
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Now before you say they should have renewed the trademark, well people under pressure forget things, we are after all human!
But they don't blame it on someone else, like you do.
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Looks like someone on staff took your advice and set up an Editorials "section" (on the left). I would always advise that future editorials here be posted as news, though under the Amiga.org announcements category, pointing to the editorial in the section. They have to be posted as news, to allow for comments and I would believe that any editorial written as well as this one DESERVES to be on the front page.
Don't remove this one though, it's far too late for that.
Wayne
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@Warface
If you read what I wrote carefully you will see that I am not blaming Genesi for Amiga forgetting to renew their trademark, I am however blaming Genesi for trying to take advantage of the situation just to make Amiga's situation worse!
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a) bbrv wanted "the name": was more of a joke after a failed troll-attempt against Genesi.
It was AInc who let it slip, and it is just normal buisness for their competitor to make
use of such an utterly stupid failure.
Just imagine Coca-Cola having to recall a million cans due to a foul taste.
Do you think Pepsi would let PR-oppurtunity pass,just to be nice ?
This is buisness, no love-in ;-)
@Argo
The courts might not allow for the continuation of the contract but would most likely allow Hyperion to release OS4 to recoup its loses in development. Not doing so, would have the courts put Hyperion in the same boat as Bolton, Fontenue, and other creditors
Not sure wether Hyperion wouldbecome a creditor,but if they do,they would
end uplast line, and if anybody "before" them wouldn't like OS4 relased under
that contract...
They can either hope that the contract-term is valid (something I find abit hard to
believe),or they go to GateWay for an direct licence.
Looking at some of the later OS4-screenshots, I get the feeling that this might
allready have happened.
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Again, not sure where you EVER got this idea. It's a prime example of rumors being spread without basis of fact.
I had read it here lots of times before and never seen it denied. So I beleived it to be true.
Sorry about that :-)
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The article was very well written and was not biased at all .
Even when bill and fleecy first bought amiga it was only time before they went bankrupt its happend to three much bigger companys before .If it was me id have sold the company to microsoft long before things got this bad. :-o :-o
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I never see the negative news on genesiss in this Web
Do you want us to make up something? Any current news can and will be reported, no matter what it is.
@naysayers
There is nothing wrong with JamesR's article, it is all based on fact and carefully written to not sound one sided or another. If you can't handle simple facts, that's your problem. Amiga.org has never and will never censor or cover up factual information just to please one person's agenda. Get over it.
I love how people are screaming agenda, truly clueless. Any person paying attention would know JamesR is a A1/OS4 supporter with little to no interest in the Pegasos/MOS.
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Looks like someone on staff took your advice and set up an Editorials "section" (on the left).
Cool, thats better!
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Superb article, well written and without the comentary that usually ruins it.
I must admit that this sort of thing was needed to put many things in perspective for me at least, to have all the problems and the crap thats gone off over the past couple of years all put down clearly in one place.
I don't see it as detracting from the AmigaONE or AmigaOS4 because Ainc have nothing to do with either. But I think it does show up glaring problems with Ainc's buisness that simply cannot be denyed, yes it could be spoon fed but ffs we're adults here, we shouldn't need it spoon fed!
Well played folks, damned well played :-D
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James, good job on the article. It was well written.
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Good article!
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Just imagine Coca-Cola having to recall a million cans due to a foul taste.
Do you think Pepsi would let PR-oppurtunity pass,just to be nice ?
:lol:
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You know as well as I do that Party Pack and CAM promotions
would not be included in that figure unless a class action
was undertaken and was successful.
I'm sorry you are very confused, the debt to the Party Pack people and the CAM people is a debt for Amiga Inc, how do you think that is not true??? Why do you think that they have to sue Amiga Inc for this to be a debt???
You know nothing of the status of the employment of the
Amiga Inc staf, how they have been paid ( salaried? options? per
profit? voluntary ).
I know what Bill McEwen said during his deposition, (and the letters to the judge dating back to August). He is on the record saying he has not paid his employees since June 2002, and that the employees are working with the belief that they will get their back wages when it is turned around, thats all in the deposition, now if you want to argue what that means, fine, but lets understand that I am just using the legal documents (including the deposition) for my analysis, so if you want to argue I am wrong, I am going to need similar backup for your point of view.
Really upsets you that Hyperion and Eyetech may continue to
trade unnaffected doesn't it. I notice you have finally allowed that
chink of doubt to creep into your argument "usually" and you still
miss out who the contract is with - or perhaps you do not know yourself?
No actually it would be great, but Bens comments make me not believe its so, we've had lots of business partners declare bankruptcy (including Commodore), I actually know what happens at a US Corporate bankruptcy, I have a bankruptcy proof contract (Bens line) doesnt happen. I am guessing you are implying that Bens contract is with Amiga LLC (the Gateway subsidiary) , if true, that would be great, but since every comment has talked about his contract with Amiga Inc, either Bens been lying to us (and in fact to me directly at Amiwest) or your belief is wrong. Does every contract get cancelled?? No, in fact your implication that I have said that they do is incorrect if we look at past postings, but a bankruptcy judge is going to look for large cash inflow on a contract (or loss of vital services) to not cancel a contract during a liquidation, and neither the contract with Hyperion nor that with Eyetech meets either of those two criteria.
-Tig
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@Wilse
It looks like an editorial to me. Editorials have always been posted in the "News" section, and this one happens to be particularly factual. The forums are for individuals to post their opinions, which is not how I would class this article.
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@Russell,
Good article. This is quality journalism. It really displays well, why an independent site, like Amiga.org can do the best job of presenting amiga news, and fansites like some of the 'competitors' to this site, and fan magazines, like the competitor to amiga.org magazine, simply cannot provide this level of journalism.
They are so intent on believing Genesi is their competitor, that they then conclude their own mentioning of Genesi makes them balanced. That if they don't attack Genesi, they have a right to expect their own dark history to itself, be ignored.
I never before believed that Amiga.org was capable of taking a principled stand and giving light to the truth...and many people did not know the truth, certainly many new comers and occasional readers of the site, needed this article.
@Miffy,
You believe in free speech but not the right to be rude? Then you don't believe in a free speech at all, my friend. You believe in very censored speech.
How is someone supposed to pass your judgement of rude?
It is, of course, not wise to be rude, but to outlaw it, is absurdity. Not everyone has the same capacity to express themselves in words...when they are rude they leave the impression, in my mind, that they lack the refinement and education to express themselves in a more eloquent manner....and thats hardly a good impression. But I wouldn't have people start taking intelligence tests before they can speak.
If you don't believe in the right to be rude, you don't believe, or understand the concepts behind free speech at all. I didn't listen to anything else you said after you made that comment.
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Poster: JamesR Date: 2003/9/24 7:16:28
Thanks, I'm glad you liked the article. It hurt to write it; honestly, I used to be a champion of AI; now I'm just depressed. Pegasos = eh. I'm not red or blue, not even purple. Now I'm just gray.
Have you tried AROS (http://www.aros.org) lately? :-D
Dammy
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the reason that Genesi's attempt at getting the trademark should have been mentioned is because of exactly what you said:
...
Genesi did it to cause trouble for Amiga inc
If you go and search ann.lu around that time, you will find a thread called "Pegasos trademark infringement" or something like that, a post that said that Genesi had not registered trademarks for neither Pegasos nor Genesi, a post with *the only single purpose* of causing FUD and throwing mud at Genesi and the Pegasos computer.
Inside that thread, someone (not Genesi) got the idea to do a search for the Amiga trademark, and then found out that in fact the Amiga trademark had expired! So as a funny (IMO and quite suitable) response to the original trolling post, they filled in an application for the Amiga trademark and sent it in. They sort of "turned the situation around".
But in no way did that cause any troubles for Amiga Inc in real life. How could it? Registering trademarks is not done in an afternoon (especially not when a previous owner has just been using it, they are first in line for a renewal), it's a process, and Genesi knew that they would not *actually get* the trademark that way. So no, Genesi did not cause Amiga Inc any troubles, if Amiga Inc experienced any kind of troubles because of themselves not renewing the trademark in time, it's their own fault, and nothing Genesi could affect in any way. Amiga Inc made their own bed!
This was just a funny and suitable response to an agression. If that first trolling post about Pegasos trademarks had not been posted by some "red troll", then "Amiga Inc trademark story" would never had happened. You know, this is a hilarious example of how "agression comes back to you"!
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@takemehomegrandma
It may have been a red troll as you put it who pointed out that Genesi had not registered Pegsos or Genesi, but it was bbrv that tried to register the Amiga trademark.
It may not have caused major troubles for Amiga Inc, but it was 1 extra trouble on top of what they already had. Some could call that malicious.
Its not even good business practice, because as you again put it Genesi knew that they would not *actually get* the trademark
.
So their only motivation was to cause trouble.
Rassilon
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Poster: Tigger Date: 2003/9/24 11:06:08
I'm sorry you are very confused, the debt to the Party Pack people and the CAM people is a debt for Amiga Inc, how do you think that is not true??? Why do you think that they have to sue Amiga Inc for this to be a debt???
Dave had stomach surgery so he's got to be on some pretty heavy meds (that's got to be on of the more painful operations out there) so he's not thinking too clearly. Yes, shock and horror, I'm defending DaveP, but he has a legit excuse for his lack of logic.
Dammy
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@JamesR
and I personally have been pretty inactive the last couple years. But "Meesa back!"
Ok , no more Star wars for you sunbeam.
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@Wayne
We're hosted by rackshack.net on
'We're'.. exactly... you as a genesi employee.. are hosted on etc... nuff said
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@Bill:
It looks like an editorial to me.
Agreed.
Editorials have always been posted in the "News" section
As I've already said, my mistake.
My memory isn't that great - when was the last editorial posted on the front page?
and this one happens to be particularly factual.
Apart from the 'coupon' part. ;-)
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This is not news, it´s telling the genesis side of things one more time. Please take time to tell us all the crap genesis did to put Amiga Inc. in bad light.
__________________________________________
This is the things that AI did to show AI in a bad light. Maybe an article that shows what Genesi did to show themselves would be in order.
Stew
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@skyraker
Nice attempt at pedantic trolling. I could go back and edit the line to say "Amiga.org is" but you know damned well what I meant. I still consider myself a member of this Website, even though I'm not an admin. It's a hard-earned habit over the last 8 years that I ran the Web site.
Wayne
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Skyraker wrote:
'We're'.. exactly... you as a genesi employee.. are hosted on etc... nuff said
That's borderline trolling, in my opinion - but, for the sake of keeping this thread as open as possible to comments as other moderators have suggested, I'm not going to edit your post. However, please know that you should tread carefully! I'm very sure you know that Wayne meant Amiga.org is hosted on rackshack.net, not what you are implying with your post.
@ James, very well written article!!
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@JamesR
Thanks, for writing this story.
I makes me feel (http://amiga.org/images/subject/icon9.gif) when I remember that this is only part of the long Amiga saga, that included Commodore, Viscorp, Escom (Amiga Technologies), Quickpak, Gateway, Amiga Inc., various hardware partners, various software partners, and various rivals.
[ edit ]
---------------
redfox
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Thanks, MarkTime. I tried really hard to keep the story balanced; looks like my Bachelor's in Journalism paid off. :-D
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This isn't exactly a surprise.
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Here's what I don't understand. Amiga Inc has apparently been without offices, without money to pay employees and in severe debt for months and months, yet they still somehow exist. Most companies would have been long gone, yet somehow Amiga Inc lingers. Something doesn't add up here. Personally, I think this article is mostly ####.
- Mike
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Good article James, well written.
What's so good about it? It's just a collection of all the blue camp trolling that's gone on in the past couple of years. The article could be renamed to: A Summary Of the MorphOS Camp Trolling
- Mike
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Here's what I don't understand. Amiga Inc has apparently been without offices, without money to pay employees and in severe debt for months and months, yet they still somehow exist.
There's something you don't understand so therefore everyone must be lying.
Companies don't just disappear in a puff of smoke once they go into the red (talking about accounts here, not red/blue troll status! :-)).
Instead of claiming that it can't be true, why not put up some evidence to show that? Of course the flipside of that is that one should not believe everything one reads, and I don't take this article for gospel either, but considering all the other evidence I have come across (which is available to everyone else as much as it is me), it doesn't conflict.
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Companies don't just disappear in a puff of smoke once they go into the red
If a company can't pay it's employees, then pretty soon it won't have employees. If they are in this much debt, I wonder why the investors and creditors haven't pulled the plug on them so far. Obviously there's more to the story. I didn't say the article was full of lies, everything on there might be true, but it's bullsh!t because I feel there's a large part of the truth that's missing from this article - and as such it's a very misleading article.
- Mike
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A Summary Of the MorphOS Camp Trolling
Trolling? All of a sudden reality is trolling? Read some of the coments here from some of our less active members. This sums up the current situation quite well and all based on FACTS!
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Glaucus, totally in agreement with you. ;-)
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Its like this to me they have nothing other than the amiga de to sell and no other product apart from the games packs so how could you expect them to survive without any real money comeing in. :-?
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\Yeah I was trollin.. fair cop gov'ner......
but you sholdnt be so obvious.. i mean. i wouldnt sell myself to golden grahams for a free crispee... but then there's you and me ;)
j/k
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If a company can't pay it's employees, then pretty soon it won't have employees. If they are in this much debt, I wonder why the investors and creditors haven't pulled the plug on them so far. Obviously there's more to the story. I didn't say the article was full of lies, everything on there might be true, but it's bullsh!t because I feel there's a large part of the truth that's missing from this article - and as such it's a very misleading article.
Glaucus, all the data here is from Bill McEwens depostion, in his own words, he said the company was insolvent, he said he hadnt paid any of the employees since June 2002 (Yes 2002), he said that they only about $100 in the bank, and he said they were 2.2 million in debt. How can posting pieces of Bill McEwens own legal deposition be bu!!shit?? You are free to read the deposition yourself, its available on the net, or you can contact the court house and get an official copy. For over a year now according to letters and depostions from Bill McEwen, Amiga Inc has been broke and about to get new financing. It will soon be two months since Bills deposition, and they still dont have new financing, they just owe Bolten another $1600 in interest, Matt another $800 in interest, (the other creditors more money in interest), the employees another 200k+ in missed salary given the salary info Bill gave us before, plus taxes, interest etc for all the missing payments. This isnt a healthy company, and I really dont seen someone buying in on a company bleeding out at a rate of 6 figures a month.
-Tig
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@Glaucus
If a company can't pay it's employees, then pretty soon it won't have employees. If they are in this much debt, I wonder why the investors and creditors haven't pulled the plug on them so far. Obviously there's more to the story. I didn't say the article was full of lies, everything on there might be true, but it's bullsh!t because I feel there's a large part of the truth that's missing from this article - and as such it's a very misleading article.
The article is based on publically available information, not on guesswork and innuendo.
If there's "a large part of the truth" missing as you claim, why don't you enlighten us, together with publically available evidence to back your claim?
There are a lot of morons about claiming to know all sorts of secrets that they aren't willing to divulge, but they do want everyone to a-s-s-u-m-e (will somebody fix that darned profanity checker?) thet they are telling the truth.
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Maybe this is the reason hyperion are doing the amigaone version of os4 first now to get money from sales to goto amigainc . :-o
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Yes, very well written.
Everything from title to sentance structure to word choice has been very well sensationalized.
Where facts are not in evidence, vague references have been used such as "multiple" claimants....where is the number? the FACTS!
All those documents post on websites...sure they showed some things, but did anyone take notice of the page numbers? there were sheafs of pages missing!
All these FACTS were posted in a news item some weeks ago, nothing new has been added with this article that was not already available then.This in itself makes this a non news item, that it is an article and not news becomes supurfulous.
The only viable FACT is that nobody outside of Amiga Inc knows the full story, and in my opinion even close to it, and this article, which can easily be taken as having all this information, is in my opinion, misleading.
A very good piece of jounalisim, its actual worth is dubious at best.
BBRV has a personal vendetta against B McEwen, this was clearly shown by his own comments on ANN during the Gary Hare debacle, and hence Genesi has a vendetta against A.Inc as it is really his only avenue to Bill McEwen.
I dont think Genesi are in such great financial straights either considering they have been giving out freebies hand over fist, been subsidizing the cost of thier boards (this is a smart business move if it works) and so on. The statement that was posted here as a news item some weeks ago re-inforces this opinion where he was appealing for support from this community.
Simply put this article is not much more than well written fluff, I dont think Amiga Inc. is the big baddy that it is made out to be (although I understand much of the angst towards them) nor do I think Genesi/BBRV is the knight in shining armour he pretends to be either.
It just keeps me thinking of a line in the movie Gladiator with Brian Denehy (sp)
"When you are strong, prentend you are weak, when you are weak, pretend you are strong"
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@Claucus
AInc-employees did leave, and some even sued.
Others stayed (unpaid) either just iddling or working in the hope of some miracle.
Being an unpaid AI-man doesn't cost and I'm sure most off them have a real
"2nd" job.
Creditors only act when there is something to win.
What could that be ?
The DE? Pretty much a stillborn.
The name ? Pretty dead (just look at the lastest slashdot-article).
AOS ? 4.0 still unfinished and in the hand of Hyperion.
3.5/9 in the hand of H&P,and 3.1 is so outdated it ain't funny (also quite
unclear who REALLY owns that. Gateway??).
Patents ? Still owned by GateWay (if not expired).
Fact is, AInc can't pay it's employees, they can't fullfill on lost court-cases,
they even can't (or refuse) to honour their costumers (yes those
bloody t-shirts :-P ).
It is now more than a year that McBillis talking about a new investor/partner,
without anything real (and why should it looking at whyt "content" is available
for the DE/AA ?).
Will A1/OS4 save AInc ? Doubtfull.
Lets say they get 100$ per combo (*1):
That would mean 10000 units just to pay their debts (notcounting the mio McBill
owes to himself) ~3000 to hounor PPack and sCAM, and another ~1000(*2) per
month to keep the company going...
How realistic are these numbers ?
1: just guessing,but make it lessand the numbers get even more out of line.
Make it more, and the plattform willnever be available a competetiv prices.
2: 100000$ per month sound like a rather minimal number for a company that
wants to actually get something done.
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If there's "a large part of the truth" missing as you claim, why don't you enlighten us, together with publically available evidence to back your claim?
I don't pretend to know the truth. The FACT is that if Amiga Inc is 2.2 million in debt, then someone is obviously allowing them to continue burning all this money away. Perhaps the fact that they are 2.2 million in debt is of no concern and this trend might continue. It's also possible that the plug might be pulled tomorrow. The fact is we don't know where Amiga Inc gets this kind of money from and this article doesn't even address this. It just throws out these figures of 2.2 million - which most likely are totally accurate - but it still leaves many important questions unanswered. It's quite possible that Amiga Inc's investors have deep pockets and are willing to wait for AmigaOS 4 to be released regardless of how deep into dept Amiga Inc sinks. The problem is we just don't know all the details of the inner workings, so why make ####umptions of their future?
If or when Amiga Inc goes bankrupt then that will be news. This article is not news - an editorial at best.
- Mike
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@IonDeluxe
All those documents post on websites...sure they showed some things, but did anyone take notice of the page numbers? there were sheafs of pages missing!
You're being very selective with your truth, aren't you? Why do you not also mention that the "missing" pages were not included in the deposition to the courts and that even Amiga Inc's counsel obviously didn't think the information contain therein was relevant to their case?
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This an awful article... not one mention of AROS...
;-)
Will the BAF's please get over it.... It's a good article, short, concise and contains a great deal of the information about the current situation. Sure it lacks some important historical details, not to mention the lack of AROSness :-P ... but it is ideal as a catch up if you've missed any part of the Saga!
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@JamesR,
I'm sure this is an obvious extension to this line of thought...but we want more!
more, more, more....
And whether its AROS or Genesi, and in-depth background of recent events would be most interesting.
I am reminded, with the Hyperion 'delaying' CSPPC version of OS4, that everytime something comes up, for example, the Boot code stuff for AmigaONE, Hyperion announces to the community that they have to delay because an opportunity for contract work...ie. real $$$ came up, and they have to, after all, make money to finance this effort.
That's all well and good, but is exactly why we like details about a companies operations.
It's a fascinating part of Genesi's resume that they don't stop work, that they appear (at least appear)..to have the financial backing problem solved....by some kind of operation that brings revenue in.
But what are the details? I have never bothered to check, but these types of details are interesting to us, if there was a news story on Genesi.
Of course the BAF'ers are not going to think anything is balanced, but its really impossible to present a story on most companies as dark as the Amiga, Inc. one...but thats because few companies are in such dire straights.
This, though, is my hope, that its balanced in the sense that it comes as close to the truth, as the Amiga, Inc. story....that type of balance is rare, and well..erm welcome.
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My turn to comment. Instead of commenting on the content of the article itself, I feel that I need to point out the way in which it is presented. It is in my opinion (and I learned this the hard way), if you are going to post something that will garnish this much attention--put the article in the "sections" (where the interviews are).
The reason is simple: We do have modem users visiting Amiga.org. It is hardly fair to them that 140+ comments have to be loaded (with all the smilies, frownies, avatars, etc) so they can read the article as intended. I'm not saying this is or is not news, but rather if you are going to post it as news: put an intro in the news body, and link it to the interview section.
I only point this out because I remember what it's like to load a news item with a modem (and AGA too). I know you feel it is too late now, but it isn't. Simply make a copy of the article in the "Interview" area, and provide a link to it. Editing of the news item beyond the link is required to achieve this.
I know you mean well, and I only mean this as some advice and as a request. Thanks guys.
(now, back to your regularly scheduled flamewar)
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Why keep blaming Bill Buck/Genesi for Amiga Incs poor management?
Did Buck tell Bill McEwen and the rest of those crooks its a good idea to rip off Amiga users? NO
Did Buck declare AmigaOS dead and go on about some dead end AmigaDE crap? NO
Did Buck force those crooks to rip off fellow employees and lie in court? NO
Wierd how you guys defend criminals who have done fvck all for the Amiga apart from ripping off Amiga users, then you guys insult a company what has done everything they claimed they would do in this niche market.
Yeah lets all cover up the truth and bash a company what actually does something.
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Targhan,
The editorials section was apparently added by the staff this morning.
Wayne
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I am reminded, with the Hyperion 'delaying' CSPPC version of OS4, that everytime something comes up, for example, the Boot code stuff for AmigaONE, Hyperion announces to the community that they have to delay because an opportunity for contract work...ie. real $$$ came up, and they have to, after all, make money to finance this effort.
And thats the reason hyperion are not bankrupt as well. :-)
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Be cool if Hyperion & Eyetech aquired Amiga Inc!
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:-)
Moderator's Note: Picture removed - this is a "family" web site. Yes, we do have some kids that view this site from time to time. They don't need to see stuff like that on here.
could we all agree on this?
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-Edited by redrumloa. Reason: Boss told me to do it :-o
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redrumloa :hammer:
I find that you will keep the desires
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You're being very selective with your truth, aren't you? Why do you not also mention that the "missing" pages were not included in the deposition to the courts and that even Amiga Inc's counsel obviously didn't think the information contain therein was relevant to their case?
Simply because the website did not make a note of this.The only thing they said was "here is the deposition"
It really does not matter to me, the deposition was incomplete, pages missing many pages unsigned and finally any and/or all of those posted pages could have been altered in any way and we would be none the wiser.
Furthermore, I would find it very odd if Amiga Inc had decided not to include those pages they would have numbered the deposition like they did.
It seems to me when you present something, you only number the presentation in sequence.
It did state in that deposition that they refused to answer some things as it was sensitive information in some way, and that by allowing that information to go public would unduly harm Amiga Inc.
If this is even slightly true, it goes directly back to the vedetta I talked about.
In any case, none of us have the facts of the matter, the article writer does not have all the facts, and hence the article should have reflected this clearly.
For example, the word "may" should have been used, and used often.
on another posting, AMiga Inc may be crooks, they may have scammed everyone with thier coupon scheme, however there are two sides to every story, the court cases are not finalized, and OS4 is not yet released for them to make good on thier promises.
Until these things happen I believe judgement should be reserved ( I believe the catchcry is innocent until proven guilty). Should we trust them? Definately not!
BTW BBRV has admited they are running at a loss in the appeal for support of some weeks ago, and likely will be for some time.They also offered many things except hard currency for this support.
It is my view that Genesi is not in such a strong position as some would make it out to be.
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I have been an Amiga user since 1989. One thing I am so sick of, is watching the different parent companies we have had over the years, take the profits from Amiga and invest it in x86 machines. We always play second fiddle to everything. And the same goes for Amiga, Inc. Announcing that the AmigaOS was dead and wasting there original financial backing on AmigaDE, to be run on another platform of course. If they would have invested in a new Amiga from the beginning, we would have had it 1-2 years ago. I personally think we are better off without them. If it wasn't for Eyetech and Hyperion, where would we be (AmigaOS 3.9.8 on a 68060/AGA machine).
I pray, that they have the good sense to sell the trademarks now to eyetech or hyperion (I personally don't care what they do with AmigaDE) and just declare bankruptcy. It is obvious that these two companies have a clear goal in mind for us, and quite frankly, I like where they are taking us.
It just sucks, to be so close, and then setbacks as always. My roommate's first AmigaOne will be here at the end of the week and we are excited. I will be getting mine shortly afterwards. I don't regret this purchase cause I believe in Eyetech (Alan Redhouse) and Hyperion. I believe they will deliver (An Alan already has!). I just hope we do not lose the trademarks to our computer. So wise up Ainc and sell it to another company and it call it a day.
Yogi27
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@all
I think it important to realize that Amiga as a community has -- and I hope will to continue -- to survive regardless of the company currently producing Amiga hardware or software.
As a community, we have outlived Commodore and Escom and continue in spite of Gateway's neglect, perhaps the most harmful of the three.
There is much more to be gained from cooperation between A Inc. and Genesi than from conflict. Hopefully, one or both companies will survive. Regardless, the Amiga community will survive.
Their pious statements to the contrary, I am not convinced that either company has defined a market or given evidence of a concrete business plan. Who will buy new Amiga products and why?
I suggest both companies disengage from war with each other and face the competition, MSoft, Apple and others.
Thank you.
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I never thought an article that is virtually 100% facts and no oppinion could cause such contraversy!
It has really brought out the trolls and the cry-babies. So many people are so damn in love with this one company that anybody attacking it with well known facts is called names etc..
FFS people... grow up! :-o
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Here's what I don't understand. Amiga Inc has apparently been without offices, without money to pay employees and in severe debt for months and months, yet they still somehow exist.
Companies are just made of legal documents. They are quite capable of existing without buildings, money, or employees. Most companies would have been long gone, yet somehow Amiga Inc lingers. Something doesn't add up here.
This is just one that wont die! Personally, I think this article is mostly ####.
####? It's well known facts! Court documents etc. Which part is ####? Point out in detail why it is not true, and back it up with some facts of your own.
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Wow, Just looked over at ANN. They have a bad infestation of Trolls.
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@all (about missing pages)
what do you think? seriousely? that the missing pages say 'all the pages you DID see where a lie?" no, they didnt say that... get a grip... Amiga.inc is insolvent and all the *unseen* pages on earth wont cover that up... at least they wont cover it up to those who have eyes and can see.
I genuinely feel sorry for you people who still support this... why?... because your sentimental and thats EXACTLY what Amiga.inc wanted (at least in my opinon) they wanted sentimental people to follow them. They're in my opinon unethical people looking to make a buck
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@meerschaum,
I agree with you, its all public documents, if there was something we needed to see in the 'missing' pages, then the pro-amiga guys would have posted them already.
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I think this shows what happens when you reach too far. If Bill and company had just tried to re-start the production lines for the 4000 and 1200 they would have money in the bank now instead of 2.2 million in the hole. They tired to make a giant leap when they should have taken small steps. Essentially, Bill and Co. made Amiga Inc. into a research firm, not production company. They didn't want to produce a product, market it, ship it, and hope some one buys it. What they didn't realize is that all that would have been no problem. They wanted to create something totally new. Time ran against them. Now they have no produce, (yet), little hope, and may be no future. I hope I'm wrong. :-(
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Simply because the website did not make a note of this.The only thing they said was "here is the deposition"
It really does not matter to me, the deposition was incomplete, pages missing many pages unsigned and finally any and/or all of those posted pages could have been altered in any way and we would be none the wiser.
Furthermore, I would find it very odd if Amiga Inc had decided not to include those pages they would have numbered the deposition like they did.
First of all there are lots more documents then just the recent filing in the Genesi case that includes large portions of Bill McEwens deposition. Are all the pages of the depostion made available, no only the pages concerning the lawsuit were . However the implication that the pages were altered is laughable for 3 reasons.
1) If you believe that those who got the documents from the courthouse modified them it is easy to get your own copies, feel free to do so. 2) If the lawyers for Thendic filed a falsified deposition with the courthouse, he'd be disbarred and he also would likely be criminally charged, in addition Amiga Inc could seek civil damages, so that didnt happen either and 3) Amiga Inc would have been posting about the issues with the deposition if there were any in fact there lawyer would have been legally obligated to do so.
It seems to me when you present something, you only number the presentation in sequence.
It did state in that deposition that they refused to answer some things as it was sensitive information in some way, and that by allowing that information to go public would unduly harm Amiga Inc.
First of all look at what we know is on the skipped pages, who Amiga Inc is trying to get money from, who they are trying to work deals with, for what, etc (we can get that from the front and ends of the pages we have). None of that is really pertinent to the case between Thendic and Amiga and so isnt included. If its pertinent to the case, I am sure Amiga Inc (if they file anything, and if they show up next Friday) will be presenting those pages as part of there information to the Judge.
on another posting, AMiga Inc may be crooks, they may have scammed everyone with thier coupon scheme, however there are two sides to every story, the court cases are not finalized, and OS4 is not yet released for them to make good on thier promises.
Until these things happen I believe judgement should be reserved ( I believe the catchcry is innocent until proven guilty). Should we trust them? Definately not!
The Thendic court case isnt decided, though we are going to hear something next week, but Bolten, Matt, Airborne, the Landlord, all those cases have all been decided and all not in favor of Amiga Inc. There isnt two sides on those cases, they went to court, Amiga didnt show up, they won their cases, Amiga still hasnt paid them. Plus frankly with Amiga Inc racking up debt of over 100K in virtual salaries a month, plus thousands on interest on actual judgements, theres not alot more to say. 50 days ago, Bill McEwen said that new funding was days away, (much like he has said in letters to lawyers and judges for over a year now) guess what, it hasnt happened, and I'm guessing its not terribly likely to happen at all.
-Tig
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I never said that the pages submitted to the courts were falsified. I ####ume that that is all in order.I am refering strictly to the pages submitted on the website. These pages could have been obtained from anywhere.They could be complete fabrication for all I know as the only way we can verify them is to obtain such records ourselves, and as such are suspect.
If said pages were supplied on the internet from various people, with various loyalties then I would be able to take it on faith they are accurate.
If the missing pages are not required, why were they included in the deposition in the first place? I am fully aware the american legal system is screwy at best, but I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of this.
Plus frankly with Amiga Inc racking up debt of over 100K in virtual salaries a month
You have access to thier payrolls do you?
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You have access to thier payrolls do you?
Yes, pretty much. Bill Mc stated under oath an approximate of how much the offers of the company make.
Unless of course we are to assume he was lying under oath. But I seriously doubt he would be so dumb as to lie under oath.
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Argo: Well.. those Anon.trolls on Ann.lu are most likely those who
don't have guts to regeister for making replies here. In the end, it's
sad that Ann.lu people (and site) has to suffer...
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Poster: IonDeluxe Date: 2003/9/25 5:18:28
If said pages were supplied on the internet from various people, with various loyalties then I would be able to take it on faith they are accurate.
Go ask McBill for the transcripts then, he would have a copy of them for his records. Amiga Inc would be willing to turn that over to you, right? They trust their loyal customers, right?
If the missing pages are not required, why were they included in the deposition in the first place? I am fully aware the american legal system is screwy at best, but I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of this.
What are you smoking? You think the courts want the entire depo put into records that does not have direct relationship with the submitted request against Amiga Inc? I don't know about Europe courts, but in the US, they want only submitted that is relative to any actions submitted. Would you be happy as a court clerk if there was only a few lines on one page that was relative but the idiot lawyer submitted something like 400 or more pages for you to add into the files? If the other side doesn't like what wasn't submitted, they have the right to submit the missing pages in their reply document.
Happy now? :-D
Dammy
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If Bill and company had just tried to re-start the production lines for the 4000 and 1200 they would have money in the bank now instead of 2.2 million in the hole.
Who would want to buy seriousely outdated hardware? Only a few Amiga enthusiasts would... And also, no one produces the custom chipset/cpu that is used in classic amigas anymore, so where can amiga get the chips? Its just not possible, its way to late to do anything with the classic line of amiga.
I believe though that the AmigaDE should have been dumped, they should rather have concentrated only on ppc hardware/amigaOS port..
but yeah, they did try to leap to far...
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These pages could have been obtained from anywhere.They could be complete fabrication for all I know as the only way we can verify them is to obtain such records ourselves, and as such are suspect.
If said pages were supplied on the internet from various people, with various loyalties then I would be able to take it on faith they are accurate.
You can feel free to call, write or email and get clarification or even your very own copies. You could even bet Rich a $1000 that they have been modified (he offered Ray $1000 if he could find a single modified page) and yet Ray has no money from Rich (and apparently no money from Amiga Inc for the last 15 months.
If the missing pages are not required, why were they included in the deposition in the first place? I am fully aware the american legal system is screwy at best, but I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of this.
The written deposition is a word by word transcript of everything said at that meeting. Large portions can be the lawyers arguing over matters, getting clarification of questions, having someone read a document, etc. Everything that happens is recorded, the Thendic lawyer only submitted the portions he needed for his case (which is what he is supposed to do).
You have access to thier payrolls do you?
I know what 2 of the employees made officially, I know from Bill's comments what his, Fleecies and Randy's salaries are (and basically they exceed 100K a month when combined) and I know what its going to take to pay 11 other people per month.
-Tig
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[Edited by poster.]
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It's official. People will invent anything to "abandon" Amiga.org and promote their agenda.
Sorry you're disgruntled, sorry you didn't like it, sorry that the world is coming to an end. Have a nice day.
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I cannot and will not support a site hosted by a company ......
Your frustration and anger is focused in the wrong direction. You should take it out on RackShack, not on Amiga.org. As far as I know, this site has done nothing to you! :-?
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Oh well ...
Bye
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@Kees
I wish C= never went bust ....
Me too :-( ...
Oh well, at least the C= girl in my avatar still has a magnificent bust :-D
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First off, my apologies. I didn't mean to rant. I just got a new job after 3 months of dealing with them and trying to find a job. I discovered today that Ev1 had contested my unemployment, so I am forced to appeal, 'cos my local 'government' decided to go in favor of big business and now want me to pay back 2 grand in unemployment, 'cos Ev1 said I didn't deserve it.
I am most humbled and sorry for the rant. I was already venting and when I saw Ev1, I blew. Think of it more as me fearing my beloved Amiga site was being saturated by this worm of a company.
Secondly, Ev1 maintains the largest kiddie porn hosting on the web. They don't care where the money comes from, as long as it comes. It's funny, but the majority of complaints about pornographic sites to Ev1 are hosted by Rackshack.
I'm sorry Kees, Wayne, and Silver Dragon. I was being an ass. :-?
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@the Amiga brand again faces uncertainty.
The AMIGA name and the Amiga Logo are fine under "AMIGA Development LLC".
Obviously, being 2.2 million dollars in debt does not bode well for the future of Amiga Inc. That said,
Part of the debt is owed to the founders of Amiga Inc…
I assumed that the founders classified their contribution as a loan not as capital/shares.
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The name ? Pretty dead (just look at the lastest slashdot-article).
At least they still recognise it....
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1) It doesn't mention that Genesi went after the Amiga trademark to cause Amiga problems.
Note that, obtainning AmigaDE on the Pegy HW may enable the relevant party to use the Amiga name. One could obtain Tao's VP related technology directly from Tao...
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Part of the debt is owed to the founders of Amiga Inc…
I assumed that the founders classified their contribution as a loan not as capital/shares.
Bill, Fleecy and Randy didnt invest money in the company, they found a VC to do that, the 1.8 million that Bill says is owed to the big 3 is back salaries, they like the rest have missed paychecks for 15 months.
-Tig
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@Bodie
Oh well, at least the C= girl in my avatar still has a magnificent bust
I'm in love ! :crazy:
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@Tigger
Bill, Fleecy and Randy didnt invest money in the company, they found a VC to do that, the 1.8 million that Bill says is owed to the big 3 is back salaries, they like the rest have missed paychecks for 15 months.
Half a million a year each, for a company that's unlikely to have a turnover of even half of one of those salaries in a whole year?
Gosh! Makes you think, doesn't it?
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@ Methuselas,
I'm sorry Kees, Wayne, and Silver Dragon. I was being an ....
It's understandable that you're upset. It sounds like you've been through a lot of crap, and you're still dealing with some of it. That's enough to push almost anyone over the edge. I can't speak for everyone, but apology accepted from me.
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Question 1:
Why would anyone want to port a Handheld operating system to a desktop machine.
(AmigaDE is for handhelds not desktops and is a long long way away from being desktop usable, if ever.)
Question 2:
How can someone port AmigaDE to Pegasos PPC when there is no PPC version of AmigaDE and not likely to be one either.
Question 3:
How can anyone or a court force a port of AmigaDE to Pegasos without TAO's approval, with TAO being a long time Amiga partner I don't think that's gonna happen.
:-? :-? :-?
Otpsoft
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I can't speak for everyone, but apology accepted from me
Yeah me too .. welcome back :-)
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@otpost
Courts don't care about:
The work a task would need.
The sense that work makes.
3rd-party stuff needed for that work.
They do care about:
What is written in signed contracts (and offcourse the law) on the matter.
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Oh boy. God, I hope they pull themselves out of debt very soon. I'm still looking forward to OS4 no matter what.
:-?
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Note to self: never preorder an 'Amiga' product EVER again.
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Note to self: never preorder an 'Amiga' product EVER again.
No, just do what I do, whistle a happy song all the way to the mail box, because it could be there today and then curse all the way back to the house when its not there for the 475th day in a row :-P
-Tig
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Poster: DanDude Date: 2003/9/26 11:21:26
Oh boy. God, I hope they pull themselves out of debt very soon. I'm still looking forward to OS4 no matter what.
Once Amiga Inc has new owners, I think you may see a reasonable busines plan come forth. This dotcom crap has got to go...
Dammy
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The contract is between Amiga, Inc. and Thendic Electronic Components. The agreement was not to port Amiga DE OS to the Pegasos, but a specific list of products that Thendic had at that time, with a clause in the appendix of the agreement to add more later.
OEM SOFTWARE LlCENCE.AGREEIMENT
The License Agreement (the "Agreement") is made and entered into as of the
10th day of November, 2000 (the "Effective Date) by and between:
Thendic Electronic Components. GmbH, a company incorporated under the
laws of Germany ("Thendic") with offices at Dymffsuasse, 1, D43741
Aschaffenburg, Germany: and a
Amiga Incorporated. a Washing too corporation ("Amiga"). with principal ,
offices at 34935 SE Douglas Street. Suite 210, Snoqualmic, Washington. '
98065
with reference to the following:
WHEREAS, Amiga develop state of the art operating system technology that
&la a high level of functionality and facilities supplications on a wide range of
computing devices.
WHEREAS, Amiga has developed a DE Operating System to which it owns all
substantial rights:
WHEREAS, Thendic develops and markets wireless portable devices. including
its flagship offering, the CASHBOY brand range of products. Thendic's products
offer a highly customizable and configurable means of portable arKl handheld
devices;
WHEREAS,, Thendic is in the process of developing a Windows CE based
handheld. multimedia gaming device;
WHEREAS, Thendic wishes to obtain from Amiga. and Amiga wishes to grant to
Thendic, a license to integrate& Amiga's DE Operating System into Thendic's CE
based handheld, multirncdia gaming device, as well as other products in Thendic's
product line, including futurc products;
WHeREAS. this Agreement sets forth the terms and conditions with respect to
such a license.
Also see APPENDIX A of the licencing agreement (addition of products) and APPENDIX C (use of marks)
The main bit of contention in both the Thendic lawsuit and Amiga, Inc.'s countersuit looks to be the interpretation of Appendix A part 2.
"2. Right to Expand List. Thendic has the right with the consent of Amiga at any
time to add new products to this list and to thereby implicate Amiga's obligations
under this Agreement to integrate the Licenced Software into such additional
Thendic Products. Amiga will not unreasonably withhold consent to expand the
list of Thendic Products."
The legal question being did Amiga, Inc. unreasonably withhold consent from Thendic to expand the list of covered products?
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Maybe somebody should update this bad boy, cause time waits for no man, and time marches on, etc
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About time for another interview...
Things does seem much brighter now for the Amiga community :-)
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Part of the difference between a profitable company and an unprofitable one is simply making yourself available to your key people and your customers.
No customer service equals no sales.
Neither Amiga Inc. or Hyperion answers their emails. Commodore always did. Whatever else they did. They did that. That is why they had sales of over 1 billion dollars a year.
I have been trying to license the os for almost 10 years. I had a signed letter of intent when escom germany took over. They never answered me either.
Why should we care about a company that doesn't care about their customers?
Read my posts. You will see what I intend to do about it.