Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga.org site announcements => Topic started by: Kees on August 21, 2003, 07:25:22 PM
-
Various people have claimed that Amiga.org is biased towards one technology or the other - this is not true. When Pegasos and MorphOS first came on the Amiga scene, Amiga.org didn't publish information about either - now the parent companies of both advertise through Amiga.org and news about both products is posted at Amiga.org regularly. One of our staff (Wayne Hunt) now works for Genesi, another uses Pegasos, and some of us are waiting for Amiga OS 4. That said, when we see a user insulting others in our forums, trolling, or outright flaming, we revoke that user's privileges.
So, going forward, if a user violates our terms of service and posting guidelines (http://amiga.org/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=6), that user's account may be suspended, restricted, or revoked at the discretion of Amiga.org staff members regardless of their views on various technologies or the company that they work for. This is not evidence of bias on the part of Amiga.org staff; rather, it is evidence of our desire for AO not to devolve into a flamefest where chaos reigns.
-- The Amiga.org Staff
-
It would be nice to see a little more respect towards the other party, no matter what this persons beliefs are.
Most arguments has atleast two sides, and respect never hurt anyone.
I for one welcome this statement, and hope that more understanding and civil tones in the arguments will take place here after.
-
Well, we could just talk about something neutral for awhile, like AROS. =) Sorry, couldn't resist.
Dammy
-
The question should be "is there censorship on here?"
That needs to be addressed.
Of course people are going to be biased on here but how the moderators act will show the people the score.
-
I am glad this has been brought up it has ben getting mad here lately. :-)
-
The question should be "is there censorship on here?"
as long as a user doesn't violates our posting guidelines, there is no censorship.
-
@Paul_Gadd
There is a difference between "moderation" and "censorship".
The first is welcome, and necessary if this forum is to remain civil.
The latter is not welcome, because it's aimed at people's views, not their behaviour.
IMHO, posts on amiga.org get moderated, in contract to other sites where censorship reigns supreme.
-
mad? well i am mad..
all of this just annoy me to death, i stayed on amiga and didnt move to pc/mac etc like all other did years ago, and now they come back and buy a pegasos or what ever and think they can troll us, so naturally we troll back.
we make our own decisions but i would love to see LESS NON amiga related stuff here, easy as that.
why? , because its AMIGA.org and not COMPUTER.org or whatever.
imagine if amiga did this on all pc sites and forums ? , advertisement , articles , bla bla bla. sure pegasos and linux is somewhat amiga related i agree on that , but you all know what i mean.
cheers
pps:i am very calm now compared to a few hours ago , but i still think some changes must be done.
-
@lempkee
All nice, BUT (there is allways a "but" isn't there ;-) ), they people in charge of this site
(and spending their time to make it possible) have decided that it is aimed at "Amiga"
in the broader sense (which includes MOS,AROS and UAE) instead of just "Amiga"
in AmigaInc like it is clearly done on that other site.
Thats how it is, and thats o.k. cos this is Amiga.ORG and NOT Amiga.COM.
Live with it, or leave it, thats your choice :-o
-
i stayed on amiga and didnt move to pc/mac etc like all other did years ago
And we are all happy that you are still with us ... :-)
-
@Kees
At last - a levelheaded reply :-) A couple of questions though:
Out of interest, what is Wayne's official position now? If he does still have moderator capabilities, can his rank say that to avoid confusion?
Does anyone know how hard it would be to mod XOOPS to news comments can be locked. Or you could even just add a forum entry for discussion at the same time as more "sensitive" news appearing.
@lempkee
Like it or not, MOS and the Peg is very much part of the wider Amigoid community now. Don't blame them - remember that when MOS was started there was no hope of OS4; if things had been different then they could have been the only viable Amigoid OS and the saviour of the platform, although it didn't turn out that way. Blame it on the decade of mis-management. One thing I like about MOS is that people who want different solutions can share their ideas, even if it gets out of hand occasionaly. I go to AW.net for more peaceful Amiga-centric news just like others might go to MorphZone, but A.org is still the best site for everyone.
@Everyone
With the A1, Peg and MOS out and with AOS4 and MOS1.4 on the horizon, I'd imagine that our little platform might get a bit more interest, and this would be an obvious site for newbies. Flamewars affect all the OSes.
-
@Paul
Are you by chance Libertarian?
-
alx wrote:
With the A1, Peg and MOS out and with AOS4 and MOS1.4 on the horizon, I'd imagine that our little platform might get a bit more interest, and this would be an obvious site for newbies. Flamewars affect all the OSes.
Exactly! You took the words right out of my mouth. :-)
-
this is PURELY my opinon but I think the people crying 'bias' wont be happy until this site is not only devoid of anything but Amiga.inc news/postings/etc... but actively goes against anything other then Amiga.inc solutions.. i.e 'UAE is killing amiga!!! petition governor to ban UAE!!" etc etc etc... this sites NEVER been biased...its users who make it appear biased because there are a growing number of users forgetting about old amigas/amiga.inc/etc and going to Pegasos/MOS/UAE/Amithlon/etc and the people screaming 'bias' dont like that.
the reason I mention Amiga.inc is that they make 'AmigaDE" ... if you take the name and the logo off of AmigaDE it has nothing to do with our classic Amiga's we grew to love...its a piece of pda software and there are alot of people who find its inclusion perfectly fine...therefore they follow the 'name' and not the technology...
-
There is a difference between "moderation" and "censorship".
The first is welcome, and necessary if this forum is to remain civil.
The latter is not welcome, because it's aimed at people's views, not their behaviour.
IMHO, posts on amiga.org get moderated, in contract to other sites where censorship reigns supreme.
Bill,
You are incorrect; a person's views go hand in hand with their behavior. If you are moderating someone's behavior, you are censoring their views. Just because you don't agree with their views on acceptable behavior, does not mean that you are not censoring their views.
According to webster's dictionary, censor is defined as the following.
Main Entry: 2censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/
Date: 1882
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable
And a moderator is defined as the following.
Main Entry: mod·er·a·tor
Pronunciation: 'mä-d&-"rA-t&r
Function: noun
Date: circa 1560
1 : one who arbitrates : MEDIATOR
2 : one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as a : the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body b : the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting c : the chairman of a discussion group
3 : a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor
So the difference is a moderator essentially organizes the meeting or discussion board we have here, which Amiga.orgs moderators do well. A censor, however, removes objectionable content, which the moderators here also do. Let's not kid ourselves people, any site that removes objectionable content censors its users, period. That being said, it is not necessarily a bad thing. If you compare Amiga.org to Moo Bunny, the topics on Amiga.org have never degraded to the level many topics on Moo Bunny degrade to. (Don't misunderstand me, I love the bunny, but its lack of censorship does have its downside).
Aside from restricting certain words, censorship is based purely on one's opinion. I have seen many times when one person considers another person's response to be a flame, but when I read it, I do not see fire anywhere. Bill, you obviously agree with the Amiga.org moderator's opinions more than other sites. Does that make them any more right than the other site's opinion? No it does not. Just as Amiga.orgs opinion is not any less right that other websites opinion.
The other side of this is that the moderators need to accept the fact that they ARE CENSORS and because of this it is really is to APPEAR BIASED. The question they really have to ask themselves is, are they? If they would let any one person get away with something that they have moderated when someone else did it, even if that person they let slide is another moderator, then yes they are BIASED. If you do not want appear biased you have to treat EVERYONE equally, which, if you look at human history, is impossible to do. The moderators here might just have to deal with the fact that there are people out there that disagree with them and consider them biased because of it. If you can not deal with that FACT, you should not be a moderator.
-
I for one feel that folks ought not go around insulting others for their views, and that if they do, they have no place here.
-
@SirLancelotDuLac
You're missing the point, even if you are right about the dictionary definition of each word.
There is a difference between censoring antisocial behaviour (swear words, personal attacks & insults etc), and censoring views on the basis of a political opinion.
This site is continually being accused of applying pro-Genesi censorship, which as far as I can tell is not true. It is however significant that the people who make those accusations are huge supporters of a site that openly does apply political censorship to its forums in favour of Amiga Inc.
I have frequently been critical of Amiga Inc, and I have been critical of Genesi too, when I feel the occasion deserves it. The main difference is that I am allowed to do it here, whereas on other sites my criticism of one side would be censored while that of their opponents would be welcomed, even if I used similar language on both occasions.
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to see politically motivated censorship here, although I do think it is necessary to enforce a certain level of civility.
-
@Lwanmtr:
Well put. If everyone behaved, this wouldn't be such a bad place.
So, to everyone I've offended:
Sorry
Now, I've apologised. I suggest everyone else do the same, ok?
On the other hand, I'm getting a BIT tired of hearing certain moderators/other people harping on about sCAM, lies etc. We know. We've heard it COUNTLESS times before. We have NO reason to believe you will come ANY closer to a solution by annoying other users with it. So if you could MAYBE consider a new tactic I would be very grateful. Just don't try to kill off OS4 because you have no interest in it. I have some interest in it, you see. And I haven't tried to cover that up at ALL.
Rambling mode off, I guess. :-P
-
as long as a user doesn't violates our posting guidelines, there is no censorship.
Good :-)
-
@meerschaum or mips_proc or whatever
this is PURELY my opinon but I think the people crying 'bias' wont be happy until this site is not only devoid of anything but Amiga.inc news/postings/etc... but actively goes against anything other then Amiga.inc solutions.. i.e 'UAE is killing amiga!!! petition governor to ban UAE!!" etc etc etc... this sites NEVER been biased...its users who make it appear biased because there are a growing number of users forgetting about old amigas/amiga.inc/etc and going to Pegasos/MOS/UAE/Amithlon/etc and the people screaming 'bias' dont like that.
Funny you should say that, since the biggest emu-hater of them all is one of the MOS-crowd :-|
-
@argo: I know you didn't ask me, but I'm libertarian.
@everyone
well, the problem here is always the same, people say they are offended by behaviour, but what they are really offended by is IDEAS.
I sometimes stray from talking about ideas...but if I'm really, really careful, I can talk about nothing but ideas, but people remain just as offended, get just as angry, and make just as many calls for censorship.
The solution to the problem, will be when Amiga.org realizes moderation is not the solution, and is very clear in telling the users, that there are heavily moderated sites already available for their use, and that this board does tolerate ideas, and isn't going to be pollyannish and just plain silly about trying to clamp down on discussions.
That is my opinion....because let me tell you, a PERFECT censor is never going to be able to keep people from getting offended...the problem lays with the person whose skin is so thin that they can't stop being offended.
At least consider, that is part of the problem...not just on the part of those with strong opinions.
-
-ignore-
-
Poster: olegil Date: 2003/8/21 15:43:55
Olegil, are you one of those OS4 Testers by any chance, are you?
Dammy
-
There is a difference between censoring antisocial behaviour (swear words, personal attacks & insults etc), and censoring views on the basis of a political opinion.
Bill,
You missed my point entirely (and yes I did get your point before). Antisocial behaviour IS a matter of opinion, PERIOD. The majority generally determines what anti-social behavior is, but that does not change the fact that it is their VIEW, which can be in opposition to other peoples VIEWS. For instance, in America, public nudity is considered bad behavior and against the law. There are many here who disagree with that, however, they will be arrested if they express their VIEWS. Censoring is censoring no matter how you try to color-coat it, however, that does NOT make it a bad thing.
This site DOES censor, it is NOT a bad thing, but if you CENSOR people, you are going to be accused of taking sides, PERIOD. To contrast, Moo Bunny DOES NOT censor, it is also NOT a bad thing, but it too DOES have its down sides.
This site is continually being accused of applying pro-Genesi censorship, which as far as I can tell is not true.
I think it should be obvious as to why this site is considered pro-Genesi, because of Wayne, his previous position as webmaster, his recent employment by Genesi and his continued involvment of this site. Do those facts make the accusations correct? HELL NO. Does that mean Wayne should stop being involved with the site? HELL NO But those facts do mean the moderators need to walk a very thin line with their moderation or they will be accused of it. If Amiga.org does not want to be accused of taking sides, it needs to be very careful how it applies its moderation.
It is however significant that the people who make those accusations are huge supporters of a site that openly does apply political censorship to its forums in favour of Amiga Inc.
As stated before, what should be censorsed is a matter of opinion and so are the reasons why. You may believe the censorship happens because of "political" agenda and the censors may feel it's because they violate the websites policies. Just because you disagree with them, does not make you right.
On the other hand, I have more respect for a website that OPENLY applies political censorship than one that applies political censorship but claims it does not.
For the record, I have not seen Amiga.org apply any political censorship and would be very disappointed if they started. (Unless of course they announced that was their intention before hand) (I missed all of the comments that supposedly got Ray removed, so I refuse to take side in that mess since I don't know all of the facts)
-
On the other hand, I'm getting a BIT tired of hearing certain moderators/other people harping on about sCAM, lies etc.
I've probably used sCAM, it have a neat ring to it. I'll try to refrain from that word. :-D
-
I know - how about if everyone doesn't have anything constructive to say - dont say it at all :-).
Its been ####ing rediculuse on here - and there has been no need for it.
-
Amen to that ! :-)
-
... and think they can troll us, so naturally we troll back.
No, you don't automatically 'troll back' just because somebody trolls you.
There is always the option of sitting back and ignoring people. :-)
we make our own decisions but i would love to see LESS NON amiga related stuff here, easy as that.
Just don't read it, easy as that.
-
IMO, there's extensive moderation on a.org, perhaps more serious than
on any other Amiga-related site. Flames and trolls are removed more
rigourously than on other sites, at least that's my impression.
Now, some people clearly don't understand when they are being
offensive, and so they don't understand why their posts are being
deleted. Well - their problem. IMO if you find your posts being
deleted, you should keep a copy and take a good look at anything that
was deleted.
I will not deny that there are a couple of individuals who are trying
to "support" the Pegasos/MorphOS in a very offensive way, insulting
people and trolling. However, I think there is a cathegory of people
which is really overrepresented among OS4/AInc supporters, and that's
those who are not really trolling, but who are simply unable to apply
any critical thought whatsoever as regards AInc announcements,
statements and products.
Just as an example: This latest thing with the Agreement/No agreement
exchange between bbrv and McEwen. I can't help but noticing that when
AInc made their statements, there were quite a lot of people instantly
taking this as some kind of "proof" that bbrv were lying. On the
contrary, when bbrv makes statements, the vast majority of
Pegasos/MorphOS supporters try to make the two statements fit together
somehow rather than automatically believing bbrv's words as the only
valid point of view and McEwen to be full of lies.
Sure, I admit I put more trust into bbrv's words, but I would still
expect the truth to be somewhere "in between". And even though I
consider the possibility that McEwen may simply be lying, I'd
certainly never claim this to be proven or obvious simply because bbrv
make a conflicting statement.
-
Quote:
"... and think they can troll us, so naturally we troll back.
No, you don't automatically 'troll back' just because somebody trolls you."
"There is always the option of sitting back and ignoring people. "
Or just contact an admin about the situation. There is also the handy "Contact Us" link under System in the Extra Stuff Menu.
-
Merko wrote:
Just as an example: This latest thing with the Agreement/No agreement exchange between bbrv and McEwen. I can't help but noticing that when AInc made their statements, there were quite a lot of people instantly taking this as some kind of "proof" that bbrv were lying. On the contrary, when bbrv makes statements, the vast majority of Pegasos/MorphOS supporters try to make the two statements fit together somehow rather than automatically believing bbrv's words as the only valid point of view and McEwen to be full of lies.
I see this the other way round. MOS/Genesi fans seem to gladly take bbrv's word for things and deny that any truth is in A.Inc's statements. This has happened a LOT on forums I'm a member of. A.Inc fans usually wait and see what BOTH parties say before doing anything.
Sure some people from both sides jump to conclusions right away and get aggressive/aggressively protective towards the other camp, but they're just the usual trolls.
But enough of that, both sides are generally as bad as each other.
alx commented:
Out of interest, what is Wayne's official position now? If he does still have moderator capabilities, can his rank say that to avoid confusion?
That's what I'd like to know. From the Ray situation it seems as though he doesn't have mod powers anymore. (Sorry for bringing that up, but it's just an observation)
-
With the A1, Peg and MOS out and with AOS4 and MOS1.4 on the horizon, I'd imagine that our little platform might get a bit more interest, and this would be an obvious site for newbies. Flamewars affect all the OSes.
Too right, I wonder how many potential new/returning users have decided that it`s not worth coming back to?
More importantly, how does it look to potential business partners of either company? They`d take one look here (and at ANN.lu) and take their money elsewhere.
-
If Amiga.org will be consistent with regard to these guidelines (mods themselves includes) this would IMO mean an enormous improvement.
:-)
However often when someone supports Amiga companies at AO they are being ridiculed by others and called names like BAFs. Or even when people bring up AmigaWorld.net positively they are being attacked for being some kind of traitor or being treated with disrespect.
The preference towards a certain platform or company does not make someone a troll, but it's the behaviour of these trolling individuals.
Tolerance and respect for eachother are IMO the pillars for a strong Amiga community. I hope AO will fairly enforce these guidelines.
:-D
-
That's what I'd like to know. From the Ray situation it seems as though he doesn't have mod powers anymore. (Sorry for bringing that up, but it's just an observation)
This may be more of a question for Kees or Wayne, but I don't think I'm stepping out of line answering it.
Kees is the Senior Webmaster, the buck stops with him(no pun intended). Wayne still has the ability to make modifications, but he is not. The most he is doing right now is in a supportive role handing over the reigns.
Behind the scenes we get along like a family, you'd be surprised. There is no reason to strip Wayne of any mod rights. He is still the owner of this site, even though he is no longer managing it.
Just my take on the subject.
-
Why not simply say both companies are a shower of ####e instead of defending one or the other, these companies are NOT professionals at all and deserve no ones support until they either release the goods or stop acting like fools.
So the world may know (indeed we know alright)
-
@MikeB
However often when someone supports Amiga companies at AO they are being ridiculed by others and called names like BAFs. Or even when people bring up AmigaWorld.net positively they are being attacked for being some kind of traitor or being treated with disrespect.
IMO highly exagerated. However if anyone has a serious gripe about being ridiculed, please contact a moderator and it will be dealt with.
The preference towards a certain platform or company does not make someone a troll, but it's the behaviour of these trolling individuals.
This is very, very true. Please takes these words to heart at aw.net. IMO it is needed there.
Tolerance and respect for eachother are IMO the pillars for a strong Amiga community. I hope AO will fairly enforce these guidelines.
I would suggest you take the same approach at aw.net.
-
@SirLancelotDuLac
I can't say I agree with you.
Antisocial behaviour IS a matter of opinion, PERIOD.
That's debatable. If we're going by such absolutes, then everything is a matter of opinion, and there is no such thing as right or wrong. There is no upside or downside. There is no honest or dishonest. It's all a matter of opinion. People can say whatever they want, however abusive or untrue, because it's just a matter of opinion. Murder is not wrong, theft is not wrong, rape is not wrong... they're all a matter of opinion. Hell, there's nothing wrong in doing things that are illegal, because laws are only people's opinions too.
You see, when you apply generalisations and absolutes together, your view of the world will become seriously skewed.
-
redrumloa :
I rarely speak against AO, or any other site, and rarely against people either. But right now, it looks to me as just cause it was MikeB that presented his viewpoint, you got into a defensive posture and instead of actually thinking about what he said, you put up a mirror and just deflected it back.
Can't we please look beyond our personal preferences for once, and move forward instead of stomping at the same spot all the time?
-
@ redrumloa
IMO highly exagerated. However if anyone has a serious gripe about being ridiculed, please contact a moderator and it will be dealt with.
I know what happened in the past directed against directed me personally, Fleecy Moss and lots of other Amiga supporting people. A large group of people seem to feel like this. IMO it's better take their opinions seriously.
I still remember it when you personally started a witchhunt against me, stating that I would lead some kind of conspiracy effort. Your comments at the time were quite heated, disrespectful and insulting towards me.
This is very, very true. Please takes these words to heart at aw.net. IMO it is needed there.
We do. We are very transparent and open with regards to our moderations. Nearly always sharing the reasons for why a comment was moderated.
I would suggest you take the same approach at aw.net.
Everyone is being wellcomed at AmigaWorld.net, including MOS fans (if they can accept that the website is not focussed at MOS). AmigaWorld.net staff is not negative towards this platform itself or its users. People are judged on their actions, not on their preferences.
-
@reflect
But right now, it looks to me as just cause it was MikeB that presented his viewpoint, you got into a defensive posture and instead of actually thinking about what he said, you put up a mirror and just deflected it back.
You are entitled to that opinion.
Can't we please look beyond our personal preferences for once, and move forward instead of stomping at the same spot all the time?
Sure. However badmouthing AO for the sake of badmouthing AO is bad form and borderline trolling. I really do not appreciate that.
-
I still remember it when you personally started a witchhunt against me, stating that I would lead somekind of conspiracy effort. Your comments at the time were quite heated, disrespectful and insulting towards me.
I didn't start anything Mike, you know how the history went.
Anyhow this is not productive, I really do not want to get into this in public with you again. Feel free to email me if you wish.
-Edit-
I almost forgot, have a nice day :-)
-Edit #2-
Hey Mike, need a new amiga (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=redrumloa&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50) ? :-D
-
Hmmm.... not posted here for a while (long enough that my account got deleted)
I switched to 'that other site' a while ago for the very reasons outlined above. I still visit A.Org though and have felt disappointment at seeing the threads that got out of hand (there have been a fair few).
I've never known a twitchier bunch than Amigans. I think there's a fair degree of 'cabin fever' going on thats caused by ppl being on uncertain ground, knowing what they'd like to see but being unable to really get on with the business of building a real active community based on a healthy number of active users. Once both platforms have gained some ground and there's more to get excited about than court cases and conflicting press releases, we should be able to get on with it and quit the bickering.
@Kees
I've not read enough of you posts to be able to really know your views but I've seen plenty of posts supporting you and hope that you can stop the in-fighting so that I can start to regard this site as home again (well, second home at least :-D )
Like someone said, this site is for the broader community. AW serves the AInc/Hyperion solution and Morphzone caters for Genesi's solution. I, personally appreciate that such a site exists and would like to see a return to form.
-
@ redrumloa
Sure. However badmouthing AO for the sake of badmouthing AO is bad form and borderline trolling. I really do not appreciate that.
That's not what I am trying to do. I know there are many people unhappy with the way AO has been run of late. I am only sharing my views as IMO they are founded and AO could benefit from discussing these views.
I want both AmigaWorld.net and Amiga.org to prosper. I honestly want the Amiga.org portal to offer a constructive environment to its users. Most people returning to the Amiga community will likely first see Amiga.com and soon afterwards the Amiga.org website (with thousand of webpages linking to AO). All the fighting is IMO not in the best interest of the Amiga community.
What should a new AmigaOS4 interested individual think when he goes to an Amiga community portal and sees Amiga supporters being ridiculed? I believe many newbies would expect something like this to happen at a MorphOS website, but at an Amiga community portal?
I didn't start anything Mike, you know how the history went.
It was an example. At the time you stated those were your personal opinions, but they were really far too hostile towards me.
If you stand open for discussion I would gladly clear things up with regard to the past, as there never was any sort of conspiracy on my part. I'll send you an e-mail. :-)
-
Yes, send echother an e-mail and sort things out in private.
Amiga.org will not be a battleground as clearly stated in the above announcement.
-
If you stand open for discussion I would gladly clear things up with regard to the past, as there never was any sort of conspiracy on my part. I'll send you an e-mail.
I'm all open for it Mike, send me an email. I don't like grudges and this one has been lingering on both sides.
-
Amiga.org will not be a battleground as clearly stated in the above announcement.
Yes sir!
-
Antisocial behaviour IS a matter of opinion, PERIOD.
@Bill
That's debatable. If we're going by such absolutes, then everything is a matter of opinion, and there is no such thing as right or wrong. There is no upside or downside. There is no honest or dishonest. It's all a matter of opinion. People can say whatever they want, however abusive or untrue, because it's just a matter of opinion. Murder is not wrong, theft is not wrong, rape is not wrong... they're all a matter of opinion. Hell, there's nothing wrong in doing things that are illegal, because laws are only people's opinions too.
You see, when you apply generalisations and absolutes together, your view of the world will become seriously skewed.
Who applied generalizations and absolutes together? I stated an absolute fact; everything is an opinion, period. Terrorists MURDERED thousands of people by crashing planes in the world trade center. In my opinion, they were WRONG AND EVIL for doing so. However, in their opinion, they were RIGHT AND JUSTIFIED! America murdered many terrorists retaliating for that act. In most Americans opinion, we were RIGHT AND JUSTIFIED! However, in others opinion we were WRONG AND EVIL!
If murder is just plain wrong, then it should be wrong in both directions, however, I bet you would find it difficult to find someone say a man was wrong for murdering the person who murdered his wife and children. If someone steals from me and there are loopholes in the law preventing me from getting it back legally, am I wrong for breaking the law and stealing MY property back?
Laws are the majorities opinion of what is right, sometimes they help bring justice, sometimes they help prevent it. Sometimes the law gives you no choice and forces you to break it. If you and your family were starving, you could not afford food and no one was willing to give it to you for free, would you not steal it from someone who has plenty? Would you be wrong for doing so?
If you simply look at this world in black and white, you will NEVER see the color it provides.
-
I think meerschaum is right. Let's look at the
people crying bias...it's like what, maybe
10-15 people tops, out of how many thousand
users???
The facts:
Amiga.org caters to everything even remotely
'amiga-like'
A-INC the 'COMPANY" doesn't really have much
going on atm as far as products/development, so
the discussions are comparatively not
representative of them (this may change for a
time when OS4 is released)
The discussions are representative of the
USERS of the site, and not predetermined by
any one entity
I do not see helpless people interested in OS4
being attacked at this site, ever. The people
who get attacked are in the words of MikeB
"well known trolls" who ask for it
-edit-
The forum topics here alone show that the
site has more "classic" amiga threads
than anything else, so it is not "biased"
These are all facts...(as I see them)
-
SirLancelotDuLac:
Wouldn't that be more of a matter of perspective? As who each person see/experience an event and interpets its meaning/significance to themselves. Thus forming an opinion on the relivant related topics.
May I ask what you do for a living? Do you have a degree in Sociology, Psycology, or Ethics? Just curious. I'm finding this facinating, though I hope it doesn't get cirular.
-
@Argo
SirLancelotDuLac:
Wouldn't that be more of a matter of perspective? As who each person see/experience an event and interpets its meaning/significance to themselves. Thus forming an opinion on the relivant related topics.
Perspective, that's an excellent way of describing what I've been trying to explain. If you grow up in a tribe of cannibals, are you wrong for thinking it's okay to eat humans? Your experiences in life say it?s okay to do; my experiences say it's not and I should defend myself if you try to kill and eat me. My personal opinion on what constitutes anti-social behavior is this: as long as everyone involved are consenting adults, it is NOT Anti-Social behavior, otherwise it is. Your right to live should not infringe on my right to live, if it does, expect a fight. This is why I believe censorship is not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it takes a moderator to censor things so they won't infringe on other peoples rights. Whether you want to consider it "censorship" or would rather use the sugar coated word "moderation", so be it. Just realize both are infringing on one individual's views to avoid offending another.
May I ask what you do for a living? Do you have a degree in Sociology, Psycology, or Ethics? Just curious. I'm finding this facinating, though I hope it doesn't get cirular.
Nope, I am a computer programmer. I'm just the type of guy who likes to sit back and observe. I find it fascinating how people's personalities can be seen in almost every mundane action that they do. I never even thought of pursuing a degree or career in Sociology, etc., probably because I didn't want it to become "the same old thing I do everyday." I always put myself in "the other person's" shoes before I form an opinion to see if there is any possible reason for doing something. I have found the best way to understand everyone else, is to strive to understand the self. The more I understand about my habits and myself, the easier it is for my to understand someone else's habits.
-
@Kees
Amen. people should be at least civil, made that point many times. A friendly dispute is no problem. personal flame wars, THATS a problem. Even as we are in the heat of the summer, there is always room to keep your cool.
Chris
-
@MikeB
perhaps people who support verbatim Amiga companies come under redicule because they deserve it?... its like a heroin junkie telling others its no big deal..how many heroin junkies do you think are taken seriousely?... but then again this isnt a normal person I'm talking to...this is you... and you probably yourself think Amiga.inc is the top-end of this community...without any respect for other peoples legitimate labors.
-
There is no friction, factions, wars, or infighting on the MorphOS websites. Sorry to dissapoint MikeB, but those feelings are strictly felt on the classic community websites.
Why? Because the rift isn't between companies. The rift is between the people of our community. It's there because people on both sides like to point the finger. It's there because people on both sides want others to make the same decisions they have made. The rift is there because we are all individuals and make our choices independantly. The rift is there because we are people.
-
seriously, meerschaum... that was uncalled for.
Making people who support the Amiga Triad equal to heroin junkies.. this is exactly what starts a flamewar. I don't go around and flame morphos users for their choice.. What reason do you have for looking down on people cause they like OS4 and/or Amiga Inc? Just let them think what they like, it's a free world after all, isn't it?
I really don't see why people has to react a certain way just cause in the past, this person has said X or Y. Listen to what this person says now instead and try to put yourself in his shoes. Is it really that unfathomable? I think not, but that's just me. Until the day comes when we can have a civil discussion, without cheap shots at eachother, without drawing paralells towards various things that aren't favourable, I fear this "community" is severely limping. Just take a moment and think through what SirLancealot said. He makes quite good points throughout the entire discussion, and he does this witout insulting people. It's not like it's anything wrong with that.. is it? I mean respect and empathy..
I've been called alot of things in my life, and a not so little part of those things has happened since I joined this "community".. people putting a label on you just cause you say this or that. I think it's unfair. Especially this BAF and BMF thing. Most people I have met aren't BAF's or BMF's.. one likes OS4, another likes MOS, but they still agrees on alot of things. But online, it seems like just cause you haven't met the person, or you can't see their facial expressions or body language while writing, people automatically assume that they are attacking you personally, and thus respond in kind. I find it sad.
Enough of my rant, this will be my last post in this thread, I think.
in hope of more understanding from ALL sides..
reflect
-
Why even bother with all this? Amiga rules... Thus everything even remotely related to it rules. Be it emulation, original hardware, enhancements and upgrades, new systems, experimental systems, hispanic girlfriends... Whatever!
Everyone boing your butterfly while playing with kitty! :-P
-
@Dammy:
Nope, I don't have a CSPPC to run OS4 on. And there's a LOT of anxious people waiting to beta OS4 on A1 as soon as it is possible, so I don't expect to be picked out just for being me ;-)
-
@redrumloa:
I'm currently on a crusade to make moderators everywhere start doing "moderation" instead of ust censorship ;-)
You not using that word (it's know to stir up feelings) would be a start, yes :-)
-
@SirLancelotDuLac
I stated an absolute fact; everything is an opinion, period.
Well, yes, that's true in the absolute sense. Of course, that also means that everyone who has an opinion is biased, and since every thought anyone has is only an opinion, everyone is therefore biased.
Does that satisfy your analysis?
I now return you to your scheduled programming.
-
@Kees
I truely feel sorry for you because I know that you are trying your best to keep things balanced here. There are several problems here though.
First it has become apparent that Wayne lied about his impartiality and abused his position here to further an agenda. I was very pissed off with Wayne as I was taken in by his little act.
Secondly there ARE people (or an individual it's not clear who exactly) here who have abused thier position as moderator, webmaster, admin or whatever in the past. The one time I'm hugely critical of a member of Genesi, with good reason and a stack of evidence to back it up, the thread suddenly disappears of the face of the Earth without warning or explaination.
Thirdly there are 2 Genesi employees with high positions on here. I'm sorry but there is no way you can be impartial when you are that much into the core of the arguement. Would you trust an Intel employee to remain unbiased on a processor site? Especially if thier job title was "Community relations" (a fluffy way of saying PR)?
I'm sorry to sound so negative, but recent revalations, and a bit of hindsight have made me even more cynical than I was before. I wonder if any other hobbies have this level of politics, lies and general bullshit???
Anyways, I wish you the best of luck Kees with getting things sorted, but I fear it's not going to be easy. I think my motto regarding the Amiga "Community" from now on will be "Trust No One" :-(
-
@reflect
I'm not calling anyone anything, I'm useing a metaphor... Mike_B consistently insults and wages anti-sentiment against MOS/etc... as he did in his last post before mine... I dont litterly consider an Amiga.inc supporter on-par with a junkie...
He's sitting there throwing little petty insults out...all in the name of 'stopping the trolls' it's so hipocritical it makes me sick...
-
Meerschaum
I dont see you slamming Dammy, Kronos, yourself and others doing the same thing about AOS, and worse.
-
DaveP
I dont profess to be 'in the name of peace' and all that bullsh!t ... so I'm not a hipocrit... MB here comes on and talks about how we need to 'make peace' and all that...and throws insults in sideways... so REALLY he dosent want peace/etc... its just BS
EDIT
-
As i suggested before ... Why don't you try and settle things in private via PM or e-mail ... or just ignore eachother ...
-
@Meerschaum
OK so you are not hypocritical about wanting "peace" but frankly that was not exactly the target of my point ( although it has bearing on it ).
If you do not want peaceful coexistence and to be debating the topics in an adult fashion then you are coming here to be combative, and are therefore one of the people that seem to find it perfectly acceptable to let of some cheap shot bomb in the middle of a topic.
Frankly I get it in the neck when I am even slightly less than sensitive about the feelings of MorphOS users and Pegasos owners ( and even those that support them with their mouths but not their wallets ) but tolerate far far worse insensitive comments and cheap shots about Amiga OS4 and Amiga Inc and Hyperion etc.
Now I don't intend to come here to troll, or for revenge, but if you do not learn a little bit more about civil discourse ( and that goes for a few people on here ) expect to get to the point where the line gets crossed and I and a few others will give you a bit of a verbal bloody nose.
Whilst you might get away with your cheap shots, and your digs, I doubt I will get away with mine. So when I do, it will not be a pretty site and I will make damn sure its on as many websites as I can manage along with a canonical posting history of yourself and the usual suspects pointing out exactly where the double standards lie.
Real shame actually, because when you do stop the BS you are one of the more interesting people to talk to on here.
PS: And keep the cheap shots at Amiga products to yourself please.
-
DaveP maybe your failing to get my point, my point is MikeB is as much a part of the problem as anyone else...and if there is going to be any kind of peace...it wont come from one side 'winning' or 'beating the other to death' ... or whatever... its hipocritical for either side to say something like 'this site was great, and then came the infidels' etc etc?... this is an overall community site...not an Amiga.inc site...and not a Genesi site, or an Aros site...its a place for everyone to share...
I asked you in another thread if you where implying people should just 'forget' all misdeeds and move on, although it sounds nice to 'stop bringing that up' there is no ministrey of propoganda on here... and people having memories wont forget.
Peace is a subjective thing, I think the site is plenty tame as-is, sure Amiga.inc gets bashed, so does Genesi, so does everyone else... if peace means censorship I dont want it... because this site has NEVER been about shutting up people who brought up opinons/ideas that where contrary.
-
Meerschaum
OK so I get your point now :-)
No, I dont think peope should forget, but there is such a thing as being a total bore on the subject.
I don't want to see censorship, I want to see moderation and that means setting a level of acceptable behavoir and holding people to account over it.
Dave.
-
@uncharted
First it has become apparent that Wayne lied about his impartiality and abused his position here to further an agenda. I was very pissed off with Wayne as I was taken in by his little act.
I think you are wrong. Wayne did develop a dislike for the things happening at Amiga Inc - and I'm sure he's not alone - and he never said he did not have a personal preference. What he said is that he was running the site on an impartial agenda, and I for one believe he was genuine in this.
Please note that Wayne resigned from Amiga.org before accepting his post at Genesi. He did this for the sake of the site and the community, not his own. After all, he could just as easily carried on running Amiga.org, Genesi employee or not.
Targhan is the only Genesi employee still involved in the running of Amiga.org, and in case you didn't notice, he was pulled short when he stepped over the line.
I think the continued criticism of this site is unwarranted. There used to be a time when people stayed away fom it because it was seen as a place for Amiga Inc "fanboys" only, and people who disagreed were made to feel unwelcome. I wouldn't want it to return to that, particularly since we already have a site catering for that faction.
Thirdly there are 2 Genesi employees with high positions on here.
There is one. Wayne is only involved as an unofficial "technical advisor". He no longer has a say in site policy, as I understand it.
How would this site be better if it was run by Mike Bouma and his cronies?
I have seen no evidence of political bias. If people get abusive and disruptive, they will be removed no matter who they are. Of that I am certain.
Having said that, perhaps it might be wise for Dave (Targhan) to consider his position with relation to this site. I think him quite capable of moderating in an impartial fashion, but obviously the perception for others will be different simply because he is employed by Genesi.
It's a shame really.
-
*holds hand in air*
I will comply.
-
I had typed up a reply to this and Opera decided to die, so I'm making this one shorter because I can't be bothered to type it all again.
I agree with uncharted here.
Things have improved recently, but there was a time when flame posts by HMetal and others were getting edited in THE SAME THREAD as flame posts by bbrv. It was only after complaints by a number of members that bbrv's posts were edited. And then it seemed grudgingly edited.
One of the few moderators that I've seen here that are impartial is Targhan. When he became an employee of Genesi he asked us if he should step down as moderator or not. We all (including some A.Inc fans) said that he should still moderate if he could keep his preferences out of the topics. Which he has done - either that or I haven't seen any of the problem ones ;-)
I'm an A.Inc supporter (I don't belive things until I have proof from BOTH sides of anything to do with A.Inc OR Genesi - I try to stay in the middle), and I don't like bbrv, well, bb inparticular, I don't think I've actually spoken to rv. I haven't payed much attention to the Genesi side of things because of my feelings for bb.
After saying that, I would have to admit that Targhan seems to be the most impartial moderator here (of the ones I've actually seen moderate anyway, I was beginning to think the others were made up to make it look good until I saw SlvrDrgn posting recently :-P). The fact that he's on Genesi's "side" hasn't come through here.
I wish more people were like him.
Now, I'm about to hit the "Go!" button, lets hope it doesn't die this time ;-)
-
@Vincent
Then you're missing out. 8)
Seriously tho, I didn't like Ben H, but it didn't stop me from analyzing AmigaOS 4, or seeing what the AmigaONE has to offer. And heck, I work for Genesi.
Note the past-tense regarding Ben H. I've met him in person, and realized he is not quite the pompus arse he appeared to me as on the boards. I'm sure if you met Bill B. in similar light, you'd probably change your opinions similarly.
I mean heck, if I can go from wanting to rip Neko's head off, and meeting him in person to find out he's not such a wanker as I'd thought, anything is possible. 8)
-
@Vincent
I should point out that I have no problem whatsoever with Targhan's moderation. The only time he did step over the line slightly was in posting an editorial as a news item, but that has nothing to do with his role as moderator.
However, some people are using his status as a Genesi employee to attack Amiga.org, and we know that there are people just chomping at the bit to find some reason that proves how evil this place is.
I did see HMetal's posts that were moderated, though not whever it was that may have got him banned. Certainly the posts that were edited were both abusive and personal, and were rightly censored IMHO.
-
@everyone
Maybe this will help both sides.
EVERTHING about/related to Amiga sucks. There is nothing good about it...and never was.
Its old...its like playing Americas Army on my C64
----> Direct anger here<-----
Once both sides have joined sides to annilate this post....we can..... have fun.
k.
-
@bhoggett and @Vincent
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I can't really moderate anymore. It has less to do with my ability to ride the line, and more with the healing process. The same reason that Wayne stepped down, really. I held on to the title a little longer, but that was just to help the transition go smoothly. However, AO would never feel neutral with any Genesi employee in a power-position, regardless of how that person moderates.
While I stepped down some time ago, I guess this is my "official" resignation :-) Just don't ask me for advice on news-items!
-
@bhoggett
> This site is continually being accused of applying pro-Genesi censorship,
> which as far as I can tell is not true.
How can you see the other side of the pound if a comment get censored (i.e: deleted)!? Why can't someone decide in their own minds if the comments are off-topic, trolling, some kind of abuse or whatever... why can't them be moderated down like it's done on another sites!?
When MBouma moderate someone elses comment, it was all the shock and horror on ann, because he'd done the only thing a moderator should, moderate it down, the comment was still visible and one could judge if it had the reason to be moderated down or not, more, what was said by the potential troll (or whatever) is still written, so the one who writed it could be viewed as the troll (or whatever) he really was/wasn't, plain and simple!
How can *I* see others arguments if they get deleted!? Because moderators use their own bias to say so? I rather have my own!
Let everyone have the hability to decide! Damn, where's Seehund when we needed it!? If this doesn't deserve a petition I don't know what will!! :-D
> I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to see politically
> motivated censorship here, although I do think it is necessary to
> enforce a certain level of civility.
Hitler also thought that way... ;-)
-
So now we are down to Godwin's law ?
Modding a comment down just doesn't work with xoops (AFAIK), and it is also no
warranty to stop the thread going OT or down the gutter.
From the comments I have seen before they werte deleted here I can only tell
you that each and everyone deserved it as they added nothing to the ongoing
discussions (actually there were quite a few post more which should have also
gone if it were my descicion), and yes that affected post from both sides.
-
SirLancelotDuLac:
> This is why I believe censorship is not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes
> it takes a moderator to censor things so they won't infringe on other peoples
> rights."
And my right to see the message!? ;-)
Bhoggett:
> I did see HMetal's posts that were moderated, though not whever it was
> that may have got him banned. Certainly the posts that were edited were
> both abusive and personal, and were rightly censored IMHO."
But this can't be a private club where only a few get to see what is written, besides, as SirLancelotDuLac well putted*, what does right really means!?
Let's the people decide... Seehund, can you help me on this!? :-D
*" Wouldn't that be more of a matter of perspective? As who each person see/experience an event and interpets its meaning/significance to themselves. Thus forming an opinion on the relivant related topics."
-
@Kronos:
> Modding a comment down just doesn't work with xoops (AFAIK).
I also thought that so, I hope it will change soon...
> And it is also no warranty to stop the thread going OT or down the gutter.
Edited: World just isn't a perfect world you know, you can have the best topic, peoples conform to it and still have the worst discussion because of lacks of arguments and such, and many times discussions do *have* to be OT, sometimes issues are bring, and while OT they are related to some of the content of a given message, extending it further, and while they're OT they're still On...
-
@pixie
Mike Bouma did not moderate comments down on AW.net, because that runs Xoops too and there is no option to moderate down.
Unless what you mean by "moderate down" is make one last scathing comment and then lock the thread, preventing the right of reply. Personally, I'd rather keep an interesting thread open and edit the offensive posts than allow abusers the ability to bring interesting debates to a premature end.
Frankly, if you want a completely anarchic environment where you can read anything - including the abuse - there's always the bunny. Next comes ANN, where people feel free to abuse others under the cloak of anonymity when they would never dare say the same thing under their own names. And then we have this place, which is IMHO the most civilised of the "open" forums.
Anarchy is fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere, and I do happen to think that comparing my views with Hitler's is going a bit far.
-
Mike Bouma did not moderate comments down on AW.net, because that runs Xoops too and there is no option to moderate down.
I assume Pixie is talking about the gentlemen who made a huge fuss recently on Mike moderating down comments on OSNews, which DOES allow comments being moderated down. However, I only remember reading that thread on the Bunny and not on ANN.
Unless what you mean by "moderate down" is make one last scathing comment and then lock the thread, preventing the right of reply. Personally, I'd rather keep an interesting thread open and edit the offensive posts than allow abusers the ability to bring interesting debates to a premature end.
That is a matter of opinion and your tone is completely uncalled for on a "civilised" forum and deserves moderation. The fact that you think Mike's comments on Amigaworld is "scathing" is your own opinion not shared by all. As I said many times, just because it's your opinion, it does NOT make it right.
Frankly, if you want a completely anarchic environment where you can read anything - including the abuse - there's always the bunny. Next comes ANN, where people feel free to abuse others under the cloak of anonymity when they would never dare say the same thing under their own names. And then we have this place, which is IMHO the most civilised of the "open" forums.
Until people make uncivilised comments like yours above. It works both ways, you can't be uncivilized to someone and expect them to be civilized back. Even if you don't think Mike deserves being civil to, you could remain civilized out of respect for Amiga.org and keeping it a civil place. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Anarchy is fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere, and I do happen to think that comparing my views with Hitler's is going a bit far.
I agree, that comparison of your views with Hitler was going a bit far, as was your rude comment directed at Mike Buoma.
-
> Mike Bouma did not moderate comments down on AW.net, because that
> runs Xoops too and there is no option to moderate down.
So... I Couldn't be talking about MBouma moderation on AW now, now could I !? I was talking, as said by SirLancelotDuLac by his moderation on OSNews
> Unless what you mean by "moderate down" is make one last scathing
> comment and then lock the thread, preventing the right of reply.
Which I haven't...
> Personally, I'd rather keep an interesting thread open and edit the offensive
> posts than allow abusers the ability to bring interesting debates to a
> premature end.
Here I would agree if it was the case, but it isn't, but edited is diferent from deletion, it could be like putting automatically I guess &$%$$# on some sweard words 'cause there's always ppl bitchin about it, but this already seem to happen to A M I G A W O R L D . N E T which is no swear world, at least not in any dictionary...
> Frankly, if you want a completely anarchic environment where you can
> read anything - including the abuse - there's always the bunny. Next comes
> ANN, where people feel free to abuse others under the cloak of
> anonymity when they would never dare say the same thing under their own
> names. And then we have this place, which is IMHO the most civilised of
> the "open" forums.
Only that this way it wouldn't, people would always brag about it, but at least they could say: hey, was I trolling because I said x, y or z? Beside, here you are not logging anonimously so...
> Anarchy is fine in small doses, but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere,
> and I do happen to think that comparing my views with Hitler's is going a
> bit far.
I also do think that *you* comparing your view with hitler was being a bit far, what I expressed and even if I'm not an native english user I think I pointed out well to the sentence where you says:
> I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to see politically
> motivated censorship here, although I do think it is necessary to
> enforce a certain level of civility.
Censorship is censorship wether it is political or otherwise as long as it's... censorship, but of course I wasn't calling you hitler, that never crossed my mind, but in the end I guess that you understand my analogy rather well, besides there was a ;-) in the end...
Let me start a campain about adding moderation down option on xoops instead... Seehund, where are you!!!! :-D
-
I assume Pixie is talking about the gentlemen who made a huge fuss recently on Mike moderating down comments on OSNews, which DOES allow comments being moderated down. However, I only remember reading that thread on the Bunny and not on ANN.
Yes, unfortunatly I was mistaken
-
Poster: bhoggett Date: 2003/8/22 18:43:53
@Vincent
I should point out that I have no problem whatsoever with Targhan's moderation.
I never actually thought in that way. I was just making general comments of the way I've seen things. It didn't actually register that you mentioned Targhan in your post until I read your post after mine.
@Targhan
No probs :-D
-
@Bill
One short example of "bias", although in this case I suspect it was more in the nature of threading but here we go.
Wayne wrote an innaccurate slam of AOS4 development and the impact of a Dongle on a business plan in a very pro Genesi/MorphOS posting of his.
I answered pointing out the flaws and asking him exactly what he was referring to.
This went back and forth with Wayne admitting he was confusing the DE license with AOS4 but he would not explain how the dongle impacted the business scenario only to say that it some nebulous way it did. Nice puff piece and slam piece.
It went back and forth again only for Wayne to call me an Amiga Inc fanboy.
I posted a rebuttal of this and a call to complete the debate of the issue he was having trouble with.
Next thing I know a load of my posts were deleted.
Then I reposted the last ( and largest one of them ).
Then ALL our posts on the subject, including Waynes, were dropped.
Now heres the problem. There are a number of ways to interpret this:
1. Someone was moderating in Waynes favour, if he got an awkward question that embarrased him, they would delete it. Ian Shurmer has also seen this happen to him btw.
2. Wayne was moderating comments he couldn't reply to.
3. Someone else thought Wayne had brought it on himself, had dragged the thread off topic and moderated the whole lot.
Id like to believe (3) but considering there was a full 6 or so hours of selectively deleting my responses and me reposting what I had saved ( I only saved them after I noticed them "going missing" ).
So, you could interpret it as Amiga.org moderation collectively moderating in favour of the pro Genesi and flawed ( in this instance ) anti Triachy statements of its webmaster.
Wheres the evidence? I have some saved versions of the thread and another website thread commenting on it but heres the thing - if you are able to remove Trotsky from the picture, what evidence Trotsky was there?
I also don't know how you can say ( in the other place ) that Wayne stepped down before accepting a post at Genesi. This is not in the public domain, all that I see is that he merely stepped down before starting his role officially.
Finally, I feel that you are being extremely hard on Mikey_C on this site and more than a little ruder than I have ever seen you before, can we have a cessation of hostilities if not open reconciliation?
Sure we both know what has gone on in the past wrt to a few issues but it would be nice if we could all move the debate on from the past and on to doing something productive for the product set competing in this marketplace lest they both become stillborn.
So please, don't tell me that the moderation here was unbiased, it was, not necessarily "pro Genesi" but certainly "pro lets remove stuff that embarrasses moderators".
There are many strong cases of poor corporate behaviour by Genesi and Amiga Inc, and people have many reasons to "despise" ( although why get so emotionally involved ) either. Doesn't make for a clear dividing line between right and wrong though and is certainly no reason for this continuous personality assassinaion we see against anyone who is part of Amiga Inc, affiliated with or merely just a user who is waiting for one of their products.
Not so long ago I wanted to delete my account after a serious falling out with a moderator ( over moderating decisions ) and we took it offline and with the help of Kees have come to a level of understanding. As far as I am concerned, Amiga.org is on some kind of "probation" ( although that sounds more pompous than I really mean ) and if Kees can make it work, then Ill stick around, if not Ill just stick to AmigaWorld.net for discussing Amigas and cool stuff on the A1 and ANN for crossing swords and keeping in contact with the other main part of the community.
Just because a lot of "us" are fed up with the same old record going round does not make BAFs the minority or mean that we do not have anything to talk about. If you were having a conversation with someone about what you like about your car and someone else kept interrupting with juvenile insults, comparisons with another car and insults directed at the CEO of the car company you and your friends would first ask them to politely desist, second maybe argue and finally if the irritating tick doesn't quit it move on elsewhere so you can actually have that conversation.
Unfortunately people see Forums as a place where semi-private conversations cannot be held ( that is a conversation amongst like minded people ) and that every conversation has the right to be bombed with self indulgent crap and irreleventia in the nature of "freedom of speech". Without the ability to put various people on /ignore and spread ignore lists it was only a matter of time before those that want to talk Amigas, do so on AmigaWorld.net where such conversation disruption is moderated strongly.
For the price of a bit less freedom you get many more conversations actually complete. And guess what? The need to repeat the same old cr*p is much less into the bargain!
Dave.
-
@DaveP
Id like to believe (3) but considering there was a full 6 or so hours of selectively deleting my responses and me reposting what I had saved ( I only saved them after I noticed them "going missing" ).
I believe you Dave, but without hearing from the other side (the moderators) I'll refrain from comment. IMHO messages should not be removed entirely but edited instead, even if that means removing the entire content. An explanation would also be nice for any edit, but the drawback is that if people can't restrain themselves you will end up with massive threads of edited messages.
I also don't know how you can say ( in the other place ) that Wayne stepped down before accepting a post at Genesi. This is not in the public domain, all that I see is that he merely stepped down before starting his role officially.
You're splitting hairs Dave, but yes, I meant that he stepped down before taking up his position officially. There are moderators elsewhere who "work for" certain companies without being officially employed by them.
Finally, I feel that you are being extremely hard on Mikey_C on this site and more than a little ruder than I have ever seen you before, can we have a cessation of hostilities if not open reconciliation?
The issue is tabled as far as I'm concerned. Nevertheless, I will continue to speak my mind and comment on issues or people's behaviour if I feel the need for it, irrespective of who they are. For me at least it is unacceptable to sacrifice truth for the sake of loyalty and if this makes me sound like a hypocrite, so be it.
-
@Bill
OK, splitting hairs it may be but I just wanted to correct the impression.
Finally wrt Mikey, fair enough, I guess the suggestion is that in the past I have sacrificed truth for loyalty and am the hypocrite. Time will tell if I made the right decision or not.
( and no for the rest of you out there, that is not what you think - its between Bill and I ).
Dave.
-
@DaveP
Finally wrt Mikey, fair enough, I guess the suggestion is that in the past I have sacrificed truth for loyalty and am the hypocrite. Time will tell if I made the right decision or not.
I'm not referring to you Dave, but to others.
-
Well personally I have never made it a secret that I favour the AOS solution
Nor have I ever condemned anyone for choosing the MOS route. If that's what people want, fine by me. (Heck I am even on record of having praised the Pegasos Mobo) Freedom of choice and all that.
However when people tell lies or spread nasty rumours about my choice of computing platform, well naturally I get annoyed.
Final point about AmigaWorld. AmigaWorld is indeed very much pro "Amiga" biased as much as say morphos.org etc. So can everyone please accepy that and move on.
As to Amiga.org. I will refrain from commenting further, Kees appears to be doing the right thing atm. (i.e. making it more neutral)
Mikey C
It's simple at my end, don't dis my platform I won't dis yours.
-
As to Amiga.org. I will refrain from commenting further, Kees appears to be doing the right thing atm. (i.e. making it more neutral)
Urgh! I should hope not.
"Neutral" stinks. It basically means "let's not say anything that might offend anybody". The "neutral" response to anyone saying something you disagree with is to say absolutely nothing, as contradicting someone can be offensive and adversarial, and therefore not neutral.
No, I hope Amiga.org never becomes "neutral". It is to be hoped that Kees and the moderators can keep the sire "impartial", but I'd hate to think it will be completely free of controversy.