Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Targhan on August 12, 2003, 03:10:01 AM
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"However, the Amiga market is quite small and all this pretend Amiga can do is fragment it. We can't understand why any Amiga supporter would want to encourage that. " -- Bradd Webb
Click on "Read More" for the relevent information from the Amiga Update Newsletter.
As appeared at the header of AmigaUpdate:
Editor's Thoughts and Introduction:
We were left wondering about some attendees, however. We simply cannot understand what the MorphOS/Pegasos team was doing there. For that matter, we cannot understand what they are doing at any Amiga show. There are only two things, both bad, that can come out of the Genesi efforts: failure for Genesi or depletion of the Amiga market. If the Amiga community were huge, it could probably support an unauthorized clone system with no problems. That might even lead to additional software, since presumably more units would be sold. However, the Amiga market is quite small and all this pretend Amiga can do is fragment it. We can't understand why any Amiga supporter would want to encourage that. Obviously, there are people who don't agree with us. That's the way of the world, there will always be many opinions about most things. We only hope it works out well for everyone, especially Amiga. We also hope you enjoy this special issue.
Brad Webb,
Editor
T H E A M I G A U P D A T E C O N N E C T I O N
There is one item to add to Joanne's excellent report that has us rather pleased at Amiga Update. Turns out the folks doing the demo of OS 4.0 at AmiWest didn't have a Power PC board available. Fleecy put out a request for someone to loan a board for the show. The person who
stepped forward and provided the Cyberstorm PPC board for the demo just happened to be Justin Webb, the next generation of Amiga users in
our household. The board was shipped out west with plenty time for everyone to make the appropriate installations and have everything set for the show. Once the board has returned and been reinstalled in its original home, no doubt it will be treated with additional respect, being a "showbiz" board now.
We're not sre how it got to be necessary to search for a board for the demonstrations, but we're pleased one of us was able to help out. For the curious, here are some specs on the board used:
50 Mhz 68060
233 Mhx 604e PPC
128 M RAM
UltraWide SCSI onboard
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Who is the doppleganger who has replaced Bradd Webb?
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Seems pretty tame to me, not like he's making death threats or anything :)
Zoltan
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Grrrrrr :-x :-x :-x
Well, i read the story,
i don't like Brad Webb,
that's for sure, want to say a lot
of nice things to him like:
You Are a PEEP and a PEEP PEEP and
go PEEP your PEEP :-x
Hmmm....
Hope Amiga.org will exept this :-)
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Bad bad bad MOS.
Bad bad bad Genesi.
Bad bad bad Pegasos.
BAD!
BAD BAD!!!
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The sad ramblings of a bitter old man...
... it makes you want to cry at how low people will go to defend their "faith".
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Even people not on the MOS side would have to admit that Webb's statements are what I'd expect from an average namefollower ann.lu troll.
Its small-minded intolerant idiots like that who are shrinking the Amiga, not companies who are actually producing hardware and software.
Webb, you win my arse of the year award.
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YAY KENNYR!!!!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Well.. I could, but it'd be subject to my potty mouth :D
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Question from AmigaUpdate:
"What was MophOS doing at Amiwest?"
My answer:
"Um... showing an Amiga Compatible product?"
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We simply
cannot understand what the MorphOS/Pegasos team was doing there. For
that matter, we cannot understand what they are doing at any Amiga
show.
We? Who is we? I think he means himself. I don't see him complaining about the globe guy who was there.
(http://anachronismindustries.com/amiwest/amiwest5.JPG)
I mean what is more "Amiga related" the globe guy or the Pegasos platform? What about Joe Torre and his Mojo Meter? That's not Amiga related right?
rriiiiiggghhtt. Funny, from my perspective there were no camps at the show, only people. Everyone seemed to be interested in everything shown.
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@ Targhan:
-Edit by redrumloa- all you MOS do is moan... humans deserve to have their own opinions, after all they are only that... human, not everyone share your view about MOS, and that don't make him less objective, or his work less noble, only show what's his way of thinking, knowing that lead with it.
He doesn't have any obligation to flater MOS at any chance, I don't understand why you can't grasp that other may think diferent...
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-edit by redrumloa- all you MOS do is moan... humans deserve to have their own opinions, after all they are only that... human, not everyone share your view about MOS, and that don't make him less objective, or his work less noble, only show what's his way of thinking, knowing that lead with it.
And what do you think my opinion on MOS is?
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You are smarter then that, that isn't the main question, or at any relevance to what he has said, that is only side notes, that you pick because they are easier to...
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I don't understand why you can't grasp that other may think diferent...
I don't understand why you can't grasp that someone else may have a different opinion from you? :-?
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You are smarter then that, that isn't the main question, or at any relevance to what he has said, that is only side notes, that you pick because they are easier to...
Well, I can't see what's wrong with my opinion...
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@pixie
People who state such opinions about Amiga Inc are routinely thrashed by their supporters. I think Targhan's objection was stated pretty midly, don't you?
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If by any chance MOS makes AmigaOS colapse, I'd say F*ck MOS, MOS haven't give me anything ever... AmigaOS has... There are lot's of better OSes out there, and way better then both, but they aren't picking at Amiga niche market...
I defend a joint between AOS Aros and MOS, but in any case I would suport MOS better then AOS
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>Well, I can't see what's wrong with my opinion...
Sorry it wasn't meant for you, it was for redrumloa
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Of course everyone has the right to an opinion: but with that right comes a responsibility. Webb is trolling, plain and simple, and with his position he should be a bit smarter. Amiga is not a club for sad name-only elitists, and I'm sorry you seem to think it is.
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If by any chance MOS makes AmigaOS colapse, I'd say F*** MOS, MOS haven't give me anything ever... AmigaOS has... There are lot's of better OSes out there, and way better then both, but they aren't picking at Amiga niche market...
Well, I agree with you that MOS hasn't given you anything, but then neither have Amiga Inc. (which is what I assume you mean by AmigaOS).
Amiga Inc. are just a company (orignally called Amino) who bought the right to use the Amiga Name. The Amiga that we knew is long gone :-(
Whould you feel the same if It was Microsoft that Bought the Amiga Brand name and not Amino?
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I don't pick at anyothers else letteres and make an editorial on them... that's the diference.
MOS isn't Amiga, right? But MOS user do pretend to be so... If I do use UAE or any kind of WINE for AOS on top of QNX doesn't make me Amiga user, does it!? They don't diferenciate themselves they pretend to be what they can't be...
As for that candle... it doesn't represent a threath to Amiga or is it!? Does it run Amiga past programs!?
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If by any chance MOS makes AmigaOS colapse, I'd say F*ck MOS, MOS haven't give me anything ever... AmigaOS has... There are lot's of better OSes out there, and way better then both, but they aren't picking at Amiga niche market...
If anything makes AOS collapse it would be the developers/AI themselves. Heck, not even us users can help it if MOS/Pegasos is a far superior product.
Early bird gets the worm...looks like Genesi is doing this.
:-o
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AmigaOS is just that... AmigaOS. Don't pretend me to say anything else
In a if world anything could happen, but I don't live in any if world
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MOS isn't Amiga, right? But MOS user do pretend to be so... If I do use UAE or any kind of WINE for AOS on top of QNX doesn't make me Amiga user, does it!? They don't diferenciate themselves they pretend to be what they can't be...
MOS is as much AmigaOS as AmigaOS4 is, since they both run old Amiga programs and have aditional features to improve the system somewhat.
They also run on almost ideantical hardware (only difference being soem interchangable firmware)
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@KennyR
Why trolling... what credits do MOS has, besides being a good Amiga Clone!? He doesn't have history, it fall back from past R&D, other ideas...
It seems Trolling and FUD are in everyone tonges for everything today...
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As for that candle... it doesn't represent a threath to Amiga or is it!?
A threat? No it's called a product. A product that has shipped at that. It's not Genesi's problem that other products havn't shipped. It's not their problem Amiga Inc is going bancrupt.
BTW the above is my opinion, take it at face value.
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Why, what makes AmigaOS Amiga? A sticker of approval from a company?
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Pixie: what happened? why did you edit/delete your post?
LOL
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AmigaOS is AMigaOS, MorphOS isn't because it doesn't share it's past... don't pretend it to be it anyother way...
MOS is a good clone, I don't say it isn't, but only that as the present day, and when it evolves, it will be of no interest to Amiga users, or at least no more interest then BeOS or QNX
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TheMagicM: don't know
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AmigaOS is AMigaOS, MorphOS isn't because it doesn't share it's past... don't pretend it to be it anyother way...
What past? A common name?
I think you had better look into the technical issues you are tryign to make claims about before you make posts on a subject that many of us here have studied in great depth.
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I dont know about any user out there who actually *cares* if MorphOS doesnt share any link to the past of the Amiga.. Heck, I sure am glad it has no ties, otherwise, I'd be sitting here like the rest of the A1 hopefuls (sp) waiting for a OS other then Linux to come around.
(that was bad, but oh well, like everyone else a opinion will be posted)
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@KennyR
His road... that what makes AmigaOS, MOS could have been his road, but (fortunatly/sadly) it wasn't... of course if it loose all of it's previosly features, it wouldn't be the case, but since it hasn't AOS 4 is built with exec on its core so... it's the sticker! ;b
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His road... that what makes AmigaOS, MOS could have been his road, but (fortunatly/sadly) it wasn't... of course if it loose all of it's previosly features, it wouldn't be the case, but since it hasn't AOS 4 is built with exec on its core so... it's the sticker! ;b
It that's your argument, then AROS is also AmigaOS, since it also has exec at it's core.
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Past is what made me what I am, it is very important for me... what defined Amiga was Amiga it was not MOS and never will
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@Pixie
His road
Jay Miner was an extraordinary visionary. None of us doubt the contributions that he and his original team made to both computing and society as a whole. He was one of a kind, but he was not God. I may not be a strictly religious man, but even I know the difference here.
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Past is what made me what I am, it is very important for me... what defined Amiga was Amiga it was not MOS and never will
I once thought like this, but constant promises of a product turned me away (or screenshots of A1 booting to a CLI prompt. LOL) . I was looking for something that is quick, and user friendly like the Amiga, but with the community support. MOS/Pegasos was the answer for me.
If you like the A1, then thats great, but just keep your fingers crossed that OS4 does come out for the A1.
Maybe there will be a MOS emulator that will run on the A1 ??? j/k
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Past is what made me what I am, it is very important for me... what defined Amiga was Amiga it was not MOS and never will
What you fail to understand is that everything you knew is gone. :-o
Amiga has become nothing but a name. There is not past, no heritage. The old amiga development people have all moved on.
The Company that currently owns the Name "Amiga", have nothing to do with the Amiga's past. They have even separated themselves from it (since they don't actually own the technology, Gateway do), and what you know as an Amiga they call a "Classic Amiga".
Do not confuse Amiga Inc. with the Amiga that we knew and loved.
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AS I see it, any one can have thier own opinion.
being BAF or BMF.
What I don't understand is, why use so much time to b.i.t.c.h on each other.
MOS is not amiga, amiga does not even seem like amiga.
So what ???? Maybe it truly is time to let the old way(amiga) die.
The more I read about things like this, the more I want to leave the amiga community and stop doing anything with and for amiga.
Any way, seems only like the rigth way to choose, being as WINTEL is where I can make a living.
Not with in a small community, where people only seem to argue and backstab each other all the time.
Or maybe I am wrong.
But my personal opinion is, that MOS should stick to their own forum, not that I am not interested i MOS, I am very interested.
But simple because it makes people so darn mad.
GET ALONG !!
Some one once said, if you don't have anything nice to say, the don't say anything.
/Frederik
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Bllodline: true.. and without their progress even remaining software makers had to close down. There have simply been not enough market left on those old systems..
I can't tell about the others but In last couple days alone I have spend over 100USD to purchase/register NEW Amiga software. And why? Cause I want to use my Pega and it happens to run those quite nicely. There are many interesting softwares I'm inteding to get in upcoming monts, but need to keep my Visa in balance so it'll won't happen overnight.
If next gen Amiga (Aone) had happened as announced I would most likely being using it by now. But at least for me there are more important things in my life than waiting it all happen.. If it happes someday and I then have bunch of extra cash, I'll consider it too..
EDIT... While writing my original comment about 30 new postings appered.. In the end.. Amiga was *NOT* some kind of religous event and should not been made as one. If some people can't see it.. well. They still do have right to have their views. Personally I see these talks like "Purty of Amiga" and "right kind of followers" quite disturbing..
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If next gen Amiga (Aone) had happened as announced I would most likely being using it by now. But at least for me there are more important things in my life than waiting it all happen.. If it happes someday and I then have bunch of extra cash, I'll consider it too..
Hmmm, me too, but I was let down time and time again... so I decided that I wanted to go Opensource, where I have (more) control.
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So, Pixie...
A generic PPC board designed and manufactured by a bunch of guys in Asia (who have probably never even seen an Amiga in their lives let alone used one) that currently only runs Linux
is more "Amiga" than
A custom-made PPC board designed and manufactured in Germany by long-time Amiga hardware designers running an OS written by long-time expert Amiga coders that runs Amiga programs.
simply because Eyetech pays AInc $50/board to call it "Amiga"?
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Hey, don't kill the guy ok? 8-)
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Actually TBH I don't give a damn if I'm considered an Amiga user or not any more. Truth is my Pegasos and MorphOS is better, faster and more stable than any of my Amigas ever were. You don't want Genesi suppporting Amiga shows? Fine, but don't be surprised if there aren't any shows at all.
In my opinion Genesi are better off attending large mainstream shows like CES, ECTS than these little amateur get-togethers. They're worth more than this.
Leave future "Amiga" shows to the few dozen AInc worshippers who get hard at the sight of Linux running on a Teron board, a window being dragged about on a A4000 and a shareware-quality puzzle game on a Sharp Zaurus. Maybe if they all club together they can afford to hire out a scout hut.
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Ok, I 've read the statement now.
If some of you do think he has the right to an opinion then why you just jumped around and not discussed the facts and/or your points of view...
Like that you "seem" to be just trying to shut him up. Contradictory don't you think?
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Edit by Kees - personal insult
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Just someones short sentence describing his stance on the amiga market situation.
My first thought upon reading this story : Reporting about a report ? Not too interesting. Hardly Newsworthy.
There exist people in this community that are strongly opposed to one camp or the other that is a fact.
Now I would not expect Amiga org to be reporting about such issues. It just does not make a good news item.
As for objectivity why should we lie to ourselves and pretend we are so objective, We are human we have emotions and we tend to favour certain things over others. Should we be heckled for our opinions/preferences?
Just stop and think a moment, would a news item be published if if for instance the webmaster of an Amiga website just (hypothetically of course) made a comment about why he thought Morph OS was the right way forward.
Would we see a news item titled "Shock Horror Amiga site webmaster loses all credibility because he is not objective and suports a certain "side"
Of course not that would be an absurd news item as it would not truly reflect the persons opinion for one and secondly it would hardly be worth reporting on a premium Amiga site.
I would rather read about progress made in this community , positive things like 'red and blue collaboration sparks new community spirit' etc.
Or things like progress made in hardware or software related to Pegasos / Morph OS or A1 /OS4.
That is what I would consider newsworthy.
Then again who am I to criticise when I am so deprived of objectivity that I write this on a Windows XP machine.
Saying that someone who opposes your view lacks objectivity, is in itself a remark that some would consider nonobjective.
It seems that objectivity is in the eye of the beholder. ;-)
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@Lando:
"Leave future "Amiga" shows to the few dozen AInc worshippers who get hard at the sight of Linux running on a Teron board, a window being dragged about on a A4000 and a shareware-quality puzzle game on a Sharp Zaurus. Maybe if they all club together they can afford to hire out a scout hut."
LOL!! That was funny as hell :-D :-P
But I don't agree with your arguments regarding the TeronBoard. I mean, if JayMiner came up and made a generic PPC board with PCI etc. etc. would you call it an Amiga just because of that? And don't tell me Pegasus is a "custom" board. It's as much a generic PPC board as the Teron is. I mean PCI, DIMMs, same chipset... come on!! .
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Targhan is working for Genesi, it doesn't matter how he states is opinion, he simply should not be allowed to state it at the front page. Furthermore, whoever posts his opionion to the front page, should mark it as personal opinion, not post it as an announcement.
I never knew Targhan works for Genesi... someone should update his ranking
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Who the hell is Bradd Webb ?
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Hey I didn't even knew there was still an official distributor for Imagine on the Amiga!!!!
This is great!.
Check them out at:
http://www.cadtech.demon.co.uk/
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@DethKnight:
Who the hell is Bradd Webb ?
IIRC, he was contributing articles to various (US-based) Amiga magazines in the early nineties.
When Commodore went down under, he started to publish an Amiga newsletter (first "issue" was published three days after CBM's bankruptcy) which was originally just distributed to some people working for the same company as Bradd (again: IIRC). This newslatter was renamed into "Amiga Update" later on.
AFAIK the thing became quite popular over the years. The Archives are available online (http://www.globaldialog.com/~amigaupdate/index.html). I just recently read the old issues from 94-97 once again - quite an interesting read.
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"AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost."
Seems like a personal opinion to me.
I feel like if I were to post an 'announcement' like this on something I read somewhere it would quickly be removed from the front page and someone would say that it should go in "Forums" section of this site.
Anyone else feel like they could get away with this here?
AmigaGuy
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@Targhan
"Oh yeah, it's not very smart to attack a webmaster on several occations. This isn't the first time you've done it. I count at least two other occations.
Have a good day, and post somewhere else."
Nice. Why attacking a webmaster should it be different from attacking some other person? I think we know the answer...
Just because of that I checked the link (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=277&forum=9&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0)
to MorphZone that cgutjahr put up in his previous post, and for objectivity you don't have much either.
You could allways put up a "FanBoy" tag on a user without gettin much suspect, but on the developers of the Amiga version of Imagine? Why?
Without relevance to your issues with the program, wich seem exageratted by the way, saying:
"This package does *NOT* meet the requirements of good inclusion into our software bundle. And, that's if they WERE NOT in the "FanBoy" camp. However, they ARE in the FanBoy camp, and as far as I'm concerned they can have that piece of garbage 3D package." is way out of "objectivity" if you ask me.
Shoud we post a news item now, webmaster of A.Org lost objectivity?
You're not making much for the credibility of A.Org. All I 'd ask as a user is an unbiased site if you want to support the alternative platforms. But then again, you work for Genesi, the owner of the site works for Genesi, and it was said the site is hosted at Genesi's servers so, no surprise at all.
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I never knew Targhan works for Genesi... someone should update his ranking
As discussed in another thread, I don't think the ranking is the place to advertise corporate affiliations. Rankings should be forum-related, either based on number of posts or a forum function such as moderator or webmaster. The signature is the place to state company or organization affiliations. This is the practice in e-mail and web forums generally and makes sense. It keeps the ranking system consistent. [end of ranking rant ;-)]
As for Targhan's "announcement," I agree that it is more opinion than announcement, which a person generally understands to be a statement of fact. I thought Brad Webb's opinion was small-minded but, as pointed out, it's clearly marked as opinion, not part of the show report. And any response to his opinion should also be marked "opinion."
If some semblence of neutrality is desirable for Amiga.org, this kind of thing should be reflected on (have I been in Japan too long? ;-) ). With Genesi employees and proponents so conspicuous on the staff here, there's already the tendency to think there could be an editorial bias, which wouldn't be healthy, would it? Targhan's opinion, while reasonable enough in itself, should be carefully posted so that it is clear that it is his opinion as a person, not an announcement from him as webmaster. Well, that's just IMHO, for what it's worth, meant constructively.
-- gary_c
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I think the AmigaUpdate newsletter is news, yes. I didn't know about it and was happy to read it.
However, I would have preferred to see the newsletter alone as a news item under the announcement section with Targhan's opinion as the first comment.
Seeing the post as it is now doesn't seem appropriate. The mixture of opinion and news is awkward in my opinion. They should be clearly seperated.
Targhan mentionned in an earlier comment that amiga.org doesn't have an editorial departement. Too bad. This would have been an excellent opportunity to write an editorial. First the news is posted alone. Then, an editorial can be posted that argues the newsletter editor's opinions with a link to the news item.
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Unfortunately, it is true. The one time respected newsletter has lost any semblance of objectivity, and the editor Bradd Webb has taken a disturbing stance against MorphOS. Such actions do nothing but breed discord, since MorphOS has created a small, but growing, flurry of development within the community.
The paragraph above had no place in a news item. It is nothing but editorializing. The place for that is in the forums, not in the news announcements.
I have heard things—which I will not repeat here—that, should they be true and become known, would have an awful lot of people here looking and feeling very foolish for having blindly followed what they thought was a good thing. The time for bashing and name-calling must be at an end. It MUST!!!
There is way too much opinionated and uninformed spouting going on and it needs to stop now. :-x :-x :-x :-x
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Objectivity
Being objective; uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.
Webb, however some might like to think, was not being objective. He was being biased, and perhaps even intentionally offensive to something he doesn't like. Admittedly, posting this as a news item was not exactly objective either: I can guess it was a matter of outrage that someone of responsibility could write something so clearly outrageous. And on that level I can understand it. To make these things known as they are is always a good thing.
It didn't really matter that is was aimed at MOS. But this is a newsletter; can you imagine the outrage if the Genesi website demanded that A1s weren't allowed at AmiWest because they were "Teron CX linux boxes"? Or amithlon or UAE or AROS were demanded to be banned from Amiwest because AInc saying that they are "emulators done by pirates" in Club Amiga? Of course it would cause a storm. And rightly so.
So show a little balance, people. The less inflammatory statements like this we get in the community the better. And can you think of a better way deterring people from publishing them and pulling them apart in forums with real objectivity?
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that fact combined with the "fanboy" intro combines to make my supposed "editorial" plain and simple FACT.
Are you sure it is your decision to make?
Shouldn't the reader decide for him/herself if the intro combined with the board loan mean that the newsletter's editor has lost objectivity?
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@Billsey
"There is way too much opinionated and uninformed spouting going on and it needs to stop now. "
My poiint exactly. Agendas and personal opitions should be on the comment/forum not the news itself.
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[edited]
Member is not allowed to post on Amiga.org
[/edit]
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Egads, how stupid can people be. Bill McEwan declared the Amiga dead, and some fans decided on showing him wrong. Those fans made a product that was pretty snappy, so AInc declared the Amiga re-alive and set out to copy them, declaring FUD against them, etc. By then, the MorphOS folk had a product nearly finished. Should they have just gone "Oh, well, Amiga's changed it's mind, we'll walk away from 3 years of work." Of course not, they went "you had your chance."
Tell me, if I am in line to buy a lotto ticket, then at the last second go "nah, I'll never win." Then you, right behind me in line, buy the winning lotto ticket, the ticket that would have been mine if I had stayed put, do you owe it to me to give me the lotto ticket, since I would have had it if I hadn't walked away?
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At a recent gathering those present were told the opinion of certain dealer(s) that Amiga.org should be boycotted because its owner went to work for Genesi, and that the treatment of those who prefer Amiga, Inc. was, shall we just say, unfair, or out of balance with the treatment of those who prefer Genesi.
I countered that, defending Amiga.org and its owner, publically.
I ask those running this site, “Please! Do not make that an ill-founded defense.” Wayne is quite good at maintaining—at least outwardly—a certain degree of objectivity. There are others here who appear not so talented. I ask them to improve.
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I hope you're kidding me?
"the author also wrote that they provided the PPC card for OS4." So that is proof they have lost objectivity?
So it's a fact to say, "Targhan has lost objectivity" because you WORK for Genesi which in my "announcement" err opinion is a little more likely to show objectivity has been lost then to loan a PPC board for an Amiga show.
AmigaGuy
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@Billsey
If we keep this balkanization going on, we will kill the community. That goes for all sides. I see fair treatment for all advertisers on AOrg.
I say try and see it from the other peoples side. I posted my side above. Can everyone understand my viewpoint? How about someone from the "red camp" post their corresponding viewpoint to be fair?
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First of all, I don't think he said that MorphOS didn't have a right to exist. I think what he was saying was that in his "opinion" MorphOS shouldn't be displayed at an Amiga show as you quoted him saying yourself.
Personally I don't agree with that. But I really don't think he was saying "Morph OS shouldn't exist" like you're claiming.
Second, you're the one labeling people as "Fan Boy" because they support a platform that is not MorphOS. Combine that with the fact that you work for Genesi and to me that looks like "more substantial proof" that you've more likely lost your objectivity then him.
AmigaGuy
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Brad Webb wrote:
... cannot understand what they are doing at any Amiga show.
[competition leads to] depletion of the Amiga market.
There seems to be a lot of this going around.
Company X happens to have bought the Amiga trademark and call themselves 'Amiga Inc.', and thus all our custom per default belong to them. Give it to me hard and long! Buy a PocketPC!
That's just achingly stupid.
The Amiga market is too small to support competing options.
Too damn right, but if either Genesi or AInc would only aim their business at us, and fight over us, the sad remnants of a former market, then they bloody well deserve what they've got coming - failure. "Oh yeah, let's (re-)make a platform, but we'll see to it that it's got no chance of ever reaching more than some of its current couple of thousand users!" Too bad that the platforms would be sucked down the drain together with their parent companies. I'm sad to see that this is exactly where AInc seems to be taking AmigaOS. Row, row, row, gently down memory lane, to some quick rent money from our only product - licensed nostalgia. Hello Mr Hardware Maker, would you kindly pay us this measly license fee to provide some artificial respiration for a minority of luddite fanatics?
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@Targham
Right, questioning it's right to exist and saying:"We do not understand why MorphOS and Pegasos are at Amiga shows" are tow different things you know....
Some people are of the opinion that if MOS is so great why can't they make it on their own? I think that was the point.
@kennyR
"It didn't really matter that is was aimed at MOS. But this is a newsletter; can you imagine the outrage if the Genesi website demanded that A1s weren't allowed at AmiWest because they were "Teron CX linux boxes"?"
First of all noone demanded anything, they guy said in the newsletter itself it is his opiinion. Then heck why shouldn't they? If Genesi posted that as an opinion why not?It's would be their opinion. Many people have posted worse things and they didn't got deteted.
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Too damn right, but if either Genesi or AInc would only aim their business at us, and fight over us, the sad remnants of a former market, then they bloody well deserve what they've got coming - failure.
I don't know about Hyperion, Eyetech or AInc, but I did not spend the past 2 months working on MorphOS.net to cater to AmigaOS fans. I worked hard to make it appealing to a broader base, to expand our community beyond it's niche. Otherwise, the old MorphOS site would have been fine, a nice narrow-band webpage. Instead, I focused on "what would sell MorphOS to other people?"
There's plenty of room for growth.
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@Seehund
I totally agree with you.
If MorphOS or AmigaOS are ever really going to prosper then they need to go x86. I'm not saying they should leave PPC all together, but if you want to sell more then a few thousand copies of your OS then you need to look at targeting the 100s of millions of computers out there and there all x86.
I can understand why Genesi wants PPC. They make hardware and probably couldn't compete if they were making just another x86 board. I understand that, but I just don't see how MorphOS will ever sell more than a few thousands copies.
As for AmigaInc? I have no idea why they are going the PPC route. People seem to think AmigaOS couldn't compete in the x86 market? WTF?? If you can't get people to buy AmigaOS for say $99 bucks to run on their current computer then HOW IN THE HELL do you think you can get them to pay $99 for Amiga OS and $1000 + for a 'special' computer to run it on?
People might fork out $99 to buy AmigaOS or MorphOS, but no one other than a few old and a few thousand of the current Amiga die hards are going to buy a "Special" computer to run it on. No Chance!
AmigaGuy
**Special Computer: This is what the millions of Windows user would consider the PEG or A1 boards. Just some sort expensive hardware that won't also run their Windows OS.
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@amigaguy
x86 is a failed route, you'd be killed due to competition from all fronts. On PowerPC you can control the hardware better. You can limit your competition. Plus, PPC is cheaper than x86, and the new 970 is faster than x86 too.
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The more I read about things like this, the more I want to leave the amiga community and stop doing anything with and for amiga.
If all of this bickering is making long time Amiga users consider leaving the scene then think how someone who is new, and wants to get (back) into the Amiga scene feels. This bickering is not healthy for the community as a whole, and in the end will probably end up tearing it apart. :-(
All I want is an alternative to Microsoft that feels Amiga like and to play some classic games. If it is AOS then I'll buy it, if it is MOS then I'll buy, if it is AROS then I'll buy it.
What I WON'T do is set up my little defence in the MOS or AOS camp and fling arrows at the other. :-x There are far juicier (non-Amiga related) targets for that. :-D
As far as the editorial that Targhan put up. I welcome them. I read it, formed my own opinion and got by with out having to inform everyone else what my opinion was. :-) Forums are a great place for debate and exchanging ideas. A lot of these comments are neither.
Besides a true debate is like a good sports game. There are winners and losers but more importantly the loser isn't afraid to say congrats and the winner isn't afraid to say great game, I enjoyed it.
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First of all noone demanded anything, they guy said in the newsletter itself it is his opiinion.
And it is his opinion I am criticising, not his right to it. He seems to think that AmiWest is a place only for his own chosen Amiga solution, just because some company owns a name. That's like someone buying the word "France" and demanding that only people he/she allows to be called French are allowed to go to France!
Then heck why shouldn't they? If Genesi posted that as an opinion why not?It's would be their opinion. Many people have posted worse things and they didn't got deteted.
They should have been deleted. It's a public forum for discussion, not for trolling. As an extreme example, it would someone's opinion to be racist. It wouldn't stay on any good forum, and with good reason, but they would have the right to have this opinion and express it. Just not here.
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@Targhan
I feel it is in it's appropriate section now in the new Editorial area that has been made. :-D
I know you never said it was I who attacked MorphOS's existance I just wanted you to know that I feel "it is" appropriate for MorphOS to be at Amiga shows and that wasn't the reason I felt that this didn't belong in the announcment section.
I think it will be great when AmigaOS is out and both MorphOS and AOS are at the same shows. Then people will be finally be able to compare the two and make a decision on which they prefer. :-D
I just want the one that seems the most Amiga like to me, stable, has good apps, and is price competitive. If it happens to have the Amiga label with it great, if it's got some other label on it then that's great too!
AmigaGuy
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There's plenty of room for growth.
Exactly.
Instead, I focused on "what would sell MorphOS to other people?" ... appealing to a broader base, to expand our community beyond it's niche.
If only another company could get that through its evicted head. :)
Or rather ask the question "what would sell [my product] to more people?", i.e. attracting both old and new customers.
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Right now we need this little infighting, to get us tough enough to handle Microsoft. It's like inner-team rivalries, or how martial artist dojo's often times have 2 hot-shots that always are butting heads. Only through the interior conflict can either one emerge strong enough to beat Microsoft.
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Lando : Actually TBH I don't give a damn if I'm considered an Amiga user or not any more. Truth is my Pegasos and MorphOS is better, faster and more stable than any of my Amigas ever were.
Lando, I don't feel sometimes that I'm particularly an "amigan" anymore either - partly because I see what that has come to mean in forums - partly because I've got a Pegasos that allows me to use better, cheaper, and easier-to-replace hardware from a larger marketplace. When I do feel like an "Amigan" it is because I am ignoring the baggage the moniker has taken on, and I am just playing with some time-honored Amiga software, running incidentally by grace of MorphOS, and this comfortably familiar software still puts me into a mode that I still enjoy immensely...
You don't want Genesi suppporting Amiga shows? Fine, but don't be surprised if there aren't any shows at all.
On a related note, the lead people / show organizers of SACC were very glad to have Genesi at AmiWest and spoke earnestly of this several times. They liked the fact that Genesi (1) bought an awful lot of booth space - which financially is greatly needed for these shows to continue, (2) helped the show climb out of its increasingly sad "flea market" ambiance by having new things to show on new machines, (3) made it possible to have more activity and energy and forward momentum at the show, sparking some friendly competition and also sharing with other merchants and displayers a reborne sense of hope.
In my opinion Genesi are better off attending large mainstream shows like CES, ECTS than these little amateur get-togethers. They're worth more than this.
In the grand scheme of things, indeed they are, and this has been discussed by Genesi and in Phoenix. But given the seemingly cooperative vibe at the show between supposedly opposing forces, the remarks from many attendees and participants indicated that there is a benefit to participating in some of these shows, and both "camps" may indeed feel it.
Only after the show did I begin to slip back toward doubt about shows that were once my heritage, as I saw forums heat up with anti invectives and fightin' and fuddin' ... I had to remind myself that at the show the vibe was generally positive and enjoyably friendly, and that it was worth all the hassles to participate in what has been a common past for both people of Genesi, and people not of Genesi.
In fact there were a lot of nice people there, and lots of fun "looking back" things to talk about that made the common background althogether obvious. That this is not always reflected on forums doesn't negate the value of meeting the people at shows and sharing experiences and fun. That software for either platform may benefit from sales on the other platform doesn't really cost developers much at all in terms of marketing or porting strategies, and a little development competition could actually drive updates and improvements users might otherwise not see (well, I am trying to be optimistic here).
Mr Webb evidently just didn't get it; doesn't get it. His loss, nobody else's... Again, the president and other officers from SACC were incredibly supportive and enthusiastic about the presence of Genesi and Phoenix. They very much want us back for future shows! So. Any punditeer floundering in malaise will not likely taint future endeavors such as Amiwest in the least. That, I think, is how to swim forward.
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@downix
A failed route? I don't understand? Millions of x86 computers sell every month (day?). How many Peg or A1 machines sell a month?
X86 isn't going anywhere for long time.
"PPC is cheaper than x86, and the new 970 is faster than x86 too"
That is a pretty bold statement and I'd like to know why you believe that PPC is cheaper. I have never seen a PPC computer that is close the price/power of an x86 machine. Certainly not the Peg or A1 boards.
2 days ago I built a computer for a friend and we got an Athlon 1800+ cpu (in box w/ fan) an ATX MB with 6 USB2 ports, ethernet, AC97 sound, agp 8x slot, 5 pci slots, DDR slots, ATA 133, and all the other standard stuff for $59.00 US.
PPC may be technologically better, but that won't help you sell an OS to more then just a few tech heads.
AmigaGuy
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amigaguy wrote:
.People might fork out $99 to buy AmigaOS or MorphOS, but no one other than a few old and a few thousand of the current Amiga die hards are going to buy a "Special" computer to run it on. No Chance!
**Special Computer: This is what the millions of Windows user would consider the PEG or A1 boards. Just some sort expensive hardware that won't also run their Windows OS.
The typical Windows user is not the target market for either Amiga or Genesi, at least not at this stage of the game. There is no way either of these platforms can offer a product satisfying to general Joe and Jane Sixpack types. These are geek products, pure and simple, and will be for the foreseeable future. But that isn't so bad. There are many people buying geek products these days. By staking out some territory on the fringe, Genesi, for example, can define its own standards. Of course, if, like downix says, the PPC 970 can be brought to market and be cost competitive and some applications made to take advantage of the speed, then the killer platform potential is raised dramatically. No longer just a geek toy, we're looking at competitive tool here. :-)
downix wrote:
x86 is a failed route, you'd be killed due to competition from all fronts
I'm not so sure about that. Imagine this scenario: some whizbang operating system runs on x86, outperforms Windows, is more userfriendly than Linux, maybe can run Windows apps in a runtime environment, is cool enough for geeks and useful enough for mainstreamers. Driver support might not be too broad, but the company could be clear about what's supported. If performance is superior enough, maybe more hardware support would come from companies seeing more sales potential. This'd be a killer product IMHO. Would it be targetted by MS? Probably, but this isn't necessarily instant death. Even if the new OS didn't get a lot of OEM deals due to (now recognized) MS heavyhandedness, there'd be lots of aftermarket and barebones installations, probably factors of ten more than any new PPC product.
Just some ideas. :-)
-- gary_c
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@amigaguy
Alright, let's hit these point by points:
1) x86 sales have slowed down since 99, to the point that the whole industry is in threat of collapse. The razor-thin margins necessary to compete in x86 are driving most businesses under. Actually, at current sales rates, not even 1 million sell per month.
2) I can get PPC's for as cheap as $8 a chip. Please, find me the $8 x86 chip, and will it compete with a 200Mhz 603e? Sure, this is not in a desktop, but there is a larger world than just the desktop out there, a world that is closed off if you go x86.
3) Find me the x86 based handheld. Find me the x86 based satelite TV decoder. You won't find them, because x86 fails here. You will find PPC, and lots of them. Millions of PPC machines *do* sell per month. Apple is a sliver of the market.
Sure, the Peg is more than an Athlon, but by the same note, it also offers more than said Athlon. (Find me a microATX motherboard with the same features for under $280 brand-new, and that's not counting the CPU in it's case, while the $299 Pegasos price does include the processor) And the Peg does it without producing the huge volumes of heat that the Athlon does.
x86 is not the end-all-be-all range, it's hot, it's power hungry, and it's noisy (due to the fans). Since switching to the Pegasos, I've found my electric bills dropping by $10 or more a month. Imagine a Fortune 500 firm, swapping out 10k workstations for a Pegasos. That's $100k savings for nothing other than swapping a motherboard. Over a year, you've more than made up the difference in cost.
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Right now we need this little infighting, to get us tough enough to handle Microsoft. It's like inner-team rivalries, or how martial artist dojo's often times have 2 hot-shots that always are butting heads. Only through the interior conflict can either one emerge strong enough to beat Microsoft.
I disagree
If we ever have a chance to survive it will be in the form of a niche market.
Even this is unacheivable if we keep fighting between ourselves.
Cooperation and unity might give us half a chance to survive.
As for beating Microsoft....A very distant dream at this stage i'm afraid.
They just have too much money and the majority of the market. No real changes in sight for some time to come. :-(
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@downix
1. http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,111607,00.asp (http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,111607,00.asp)
According to this article in the second quarter of this year 33.2 million computers were sold, up 4.1%. That amounts to well over 11 million a month. I'm guessing a majority of those are x86.
If x86 sales did slow down at all it was probably because almost everyone ownes one already. Hence millions of possible x86OS4/ x86MorphOS sales.
2. $8 a chip at what speed? In what quantity? I'd like a link. How much is the motherboard it goes on and why are Genesi charging so much then?
3. x86 Handheld (http://palmtops.about.com/library/weekly/aa122702a2.htm) You can run your choice of Windows XP, 2000, ME,98, Linux or UNIX on it.
My whole point is that you can not buy a PPC computer for what you can buy an x86 machine for at near the same performance. If you have a link to such a machine please post it. My other point is that even if there were a PPC computer at the same Price/Performance it wouldn't matter as there are already MILLIONS and MILLIONS of x86 owners out there. NONE of these people would have to spend a dime on hardware to run OS4/MorphOS.
Just getting them to consider MorphOS/AOS is a challenge. Telling them they have to buy a new computer (even if it is comparable in price/features of an x86 system) would be near impossible.
If you want to make money, money you can use to continue to advance AmigaOS/MorphOS to a point where it can compete for house hold OS dominance, then you are going to have to sell a few million copies. Selling just a few thousand copies for the PEG or A1 will hardly recope the cost of the initial developement.
AmigaGuy
-edit- There are $10 x86 cpu's. That's the deal we got. You did have to buy the motherboard ($49.99) and then you got the Athlon 1800+ for $10.
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WTF?? Who's in charge here??
I want to speak to the management!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Ladies and Gentlemen... Friends...
In this particular issue, I must impose my now-retired Amiga.org persona and point out that two wrongs don't make a right.
Brad Webb was wrong in misusing his position as a respected "journalist" in this community to promote his own overt opinions. That much is plain to see as a lot of you who are now slamming Dave have openly admitted. While you may or may not be able to overlook it, Brad's comments are certainly no worse than those of some "defenders" (is that term less objectionable than "cheerleader"?) we have had to contend with in this community for a while now.
On the other hand, and I say this with all due respect to Dave Crawford and the rest of the Amiga.org staff (who are otherwise doing a fabulous job), Dave (aka Targhan) -- IMHO -- stepped over a thin line with posting his opinion as a news article on the site. A forum post would have been warranted. A post of Brad's article with Dave's comments as the first would have been warranted. A news article it is not.
In that particular way, Dave lost a little bit of his own unbiased view, and to those of you whom he offended, I ask that you step back and realize how truly "offensive" Brad's biased viewpoint is to those who are proverbially slaving away to give classic Amiga owners a real alternative for the future.
So, who is really wrong in this situation? The man who said it? Or perhaps the man who retorted? I suppose this is an instance where I could just as easily said "neither.... or both..."
Initially, as I checked my messages late this evening, I thought to close the thread here. Xoops doesn't allow that, so I thought to simply remove the item altogether but that would kill 90 posts and not be taken well by either "side".
Humorously, I remembered that neither is strictly my "job" any more, and I hate to go all Rodney King on you, but I leave you with one comment.
This community has survived 8 years without Commodore. This community has survived 3 years of Amiga Inc. We have grown up together, we have all had good moments and bad. Now that there are good things happening for the community by way of several available alternative options, it is radicalism and closed-mindedness which is destroying the community that WE built. (NOT Commodore. Not Amiga International, NOT Escom, NOT Amiga Inc., and NOT Genesi). Closed-mindedness is NOT what the Amiga has ever been about. Quite the contrary.
If we don't stop the bullshit and start getting along, there will be nothing left worth fighting over. While it's cool to have a preference, let the products do the talking, not the religion.
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@wayne
Forget all the moral high ground crap. Dave was wrong to post this as an announcement and he realized that and he took corrective action, Webb made a bad decision to write what he did and as far as I know has not taken any corrective action. In my oppinion that makes Dave the bigger better PERSON for realizing his mistake and changing things!
Now you make him change it back?
More to the point of just plain common news reporting sense.
I can see how "AmigaUpdate is now Available" can be an announcment, but for the life of me I can not understand how one person's view on ANY subject can fairly be considered an announcement on the front of this site.
Isn't this what the Forums are for? To talk about your opinions on things? Isn't this why you can post a Comment about the news articles?
So if a new version of WinUAE comes out can people just start posting Annoucements about what they think of the latest release? Don't you think the front page would get really cluttered?
AmigaGuy
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@amigaguy,
Sigh.... Some of you just can't understand tact, can you?
Now you make him change it back?
Make who change what back? I've asked for no changes. I *DID* go against my retirement (since most of the staff are still training) and move the article back into the announcements category because the current staff didn't realize the amount of customization which has gone into the site. Creating a new category for editorials BROKE the news display, hence the black on dark gray news header....
The current staff and I instead have been able to figure out a compromise which should suit everyone, but I doubt it since some people just can't breathe without bitching. :-D
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@wayne
"@amigaguy,
Sigh.... Some of you just can't understand tact, can you?"
First of all I don't appreciate the personal attack. I don't feel like I was attacking anyone. I just feel like the community brought something to the webmaster's attention and he aggreed to change it.
Dave realized this shouldn't have been posted as an announcement, but as something else.
If there are technical problems and you had to move it back to an "Announcement" I think a Disclamer should have been added on the main page for this item explaining something like "this is not meant to be an announcment, but do to technical problems this is where it remains."
Just as an FYI a Genesi employee just coming in and changing things around after the Webmaster and community have aggreed to something makes it look like some Objectivity is being Lost.
I see you have now changed it to Misc.
AmigaGuy
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Amiga: Dead
MorphOS: Alive
Brad: Bitter
Give it a rest already. A market with no products is not a market. Also how the hell can you blame Genesi for Amiga Inc's incompetance?
...oh if only Genesi weren't around...then I could pretend AmigaOS 4 isn't late...
PATHETIC :-x :-x :-x
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Amiga user: "Hey, would you like to switch to the Amiga platform?"
New user: "Huh? Are they still being sold? Wha?"
Amiga user: "Well no, but you can join amiga.org and rant about irrelevant stuff for hours. We also like to walk out into a field, open our mouthes, and hope pie flies into them!"
New user (nervously): "Err, are you OK man?"
Amiga user: "It's a simple question man! Do you want to join my cult and wait for pie?"
New user: "Uuuuh, could you hold for a second?" (runs away)
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Amiga user: "Hey, would you like to switch to the Amiga platform?"
New user: "Huh? Are they still being sold? Wha?"
Amiga user: "Well no, but you can join amiga.org and rant about irrelevant stuff for hours. We also like to walk out into a field, open our mouthes, and hope pie flies into them!"
New user (nervously): "Err, are you OK man?"
Amiga user: "It's a simple question man! Do you want to join my cult and wait for pie?"
New user: "Uuuuh, could you hold for a second?" (runs away)
Ranting about irrelevant stuff for hours would at least give them a chance to test out the latest version of MorphOS and see how well IBrowse runs on it while they post comments :-D :-D
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The current staff and I instead have been able to figure out a compromise which should suit everyone, but I doubt it since some people just can't breathe without bitching.
Darnit all Wayne, you always seem to find a way to include me in your catch-all clinchers.
:pint:
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Poster: downix Date: 2003/8/11 23:02:51
x86 is a failed route,
That's the reason it accounts for 97% of total computers sold? Give me that type of failure any day. ;)
you'd be killed due to competition from all fronts. On PowerPC you can control the hardware better. You can limit your competition. Plus, PPC is cheaper than x86, and the new 970 is faster than x86 too.
Limit your competition maybe good for the company, it's not good for the consumers/end users. The cheaper/faster is yet to be proven vs a like CPU/mobo. Once both are out in the wild, then we can see what the numbers are like for cheaper and faster. I have a feeing, it won't be PPC.
Dammy
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Poster: strobe Date: 2003/8/12 1:13:26
..oh if only Genesi weren't around...then I could pretend AmigaOS 4 isn't late...
Not quiet, AROS is still out there clawing and scratching it's way into the OS world. So that alone would remind you OS4 is what, "On schedule and Rock'n" plus two years?
Dammy
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Amiga Update: Great.
Personal Bias included: Poor Taste. No. Bad!
Shame for shame.
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Why is a personal opinion (Targhan's) about an editorial
in a news letter put up as some sort of great news item?
The editorial is per definition the view of the editor, isn't it?
Why should his opinions be put up on the wall like this, is it
"news" to invite everyone to trash at his views? I though
flamewars were old hat by now. Oh well.
Furthermore, the really news-worthy part of this
newsletter was the very nice, friendly, non-aggressive and
well written AmiWest show report. Why was this
completely edited away from this so-called "news item"? At
least add a link to it and give give this sorry excuse for a
flame-invitation some news value whatsoever.
I've never believed in the rumors that this site is going
downhill. I really hope I will continue not to believe
those rumors in the future too.
-edit- I see that at least a proper item has been added
covering the entire news letter, which is good. This one is -
miscellaneous? Oh well. I guess flamewar-invitations are
only a part of Amiga-life.
.
SlimJim
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Whats the go here? its no different then when wayne abused his position to bash a-inc constantly? let it go people. Its nice and convenient when they are doing for your side so you call it "supporting the platform", irritating when they do it for the the other side so you call it "abusing their position". So what do you do? do you let people voice their opinions like you let wayne voice his or ban opinions people have just because in confilcts with yours.
In fact from reading the comments that started it, id say its quite tame? Id expect the same complaint from mos supporters if a mos show had ainc there and i believe it would be justified... no big deal.
ps, Which of the following is a microsoft OS
1) Microsoft Windows
2) Lindows
Is there a definitive answer? i dont think so because you can argue for both.
now, Which of the following is NOT a microsoft OS
1) Microsoft Windows
2) Lindows
You certainly cant argue that (1) is not. And so it can be argued the same about aos vs mos. Im not saying that morph os is NOT amiga, im just saying that amiga os IS, but solely only because of the name and the trademark rights, and THAT is the only accurate answer you will get. There is no point arguing any further because it doesnt get any clearer when you pick apart feature set so give up people. Put simply you have all been asking the wrong question, i.e. one that doesnt have a definitive answer, only opinions...
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@Wayne
".... Brad's comments are certainly no worse than those of some "defenders" (is that term less objectionable than "cheerleader"?) we have had to contend with in this community for a while now....."
I know it's now settled down and I'm glad. But why did you included that? You know very well, the same is appliable to the other camp, and especially you, when you made all those comments about AInc. and then didn't want to back them when asked to. I'm still waiting to know "The Truth". You know very well that when Amino bought the name and announced AmigaOS dead, and the DE was the future, some people were bitching around others just left. I bitched around in A.Org forums at the time and you, like you've already said, were acting like a cheeleader. Then before joining Genesi you jumped right into the other extreme bashing AInc. You know what, I still distrust AInc and I'm not sure what they would do with the OS if they buy it back, but I haven't gone to extremes about it, but voiiced my opinion.
So you don't need to put tags on all people that have the same opinion about a very particular subject and say " the defendands" if it's less offensive than cheerleader" or something.... Cheerleader you cannot call me.
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I want to know, is cgutjahr still banned?
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WHO CARES IF SOME ARROGANT DIP**** HAS HIS OWN AMIGA NEWSLETTER AND DOESN'T LIKE GENESI????????????????
I certainly don't.
Geez, you guys just run looking for any stupid excuse to continue on what will one day be considered the longest, stupidest, flame-war in the history of the internet.
Now we're not even arguing about which product is more "Amiga" (which is a pretty stupid concept in and of itself considering in order to be 'Amiga' you kind of have to be full of proprietary hardware that's been out of manufacture for 10 years now), we're just arguing about whether or not someone has the right to argue to begin with.
So Mr. Webb is self-importent and likes to use his newsletter as his own personal platform for sloughing off his opinion on others, got it. Now can we please move on to something actually interesting or worthwhile??
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Wayne wrote:
This community has survived 8 years without Commodore. This community has survived 3 years of Amiga Inc. We have grown up together, we have all had good moments and bad. Now that there are good things happening for the community by way of several available alternative options, it is radicalism and closed-mindedness which is destroying the community that WE built. (NOT Commodore. Not Amiga International, NOT Escom, NOT Amiga Inc., and NOT Genesi). Closed-mindedness is NOT what the Amiga has ever been about. Quite the contrary.
Hear, hear. There's just nothing more I could add to that.
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i just can't stop loving "brad w" :)
and hopefully some of what he says here will
be more that just TALKS~!!
instead of talking here , go and download our latest AMIGA DEMO , MENTAL .... :)
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SlimJim: GOOD POINT!!!
anyway guys... while u are at it..., download our newst amiga demo .. MENTAL ...
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Lempkee: You are sounding like those Aros people.. :-D
Anyhow.. IMHO it would be a lot better that No moderator who's involed into discussion on a thread (or started it) should moderate postings on that thread. There are couple not so nice examples of sites where moderation has been used for thought control and 'goodfacts' generator and I really don't like seeing Amiga.org to become like them.
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All I want is an alternative to Microsoft that feels Amiga like and to play some classic games. If it is AOS then I'll buy it, if it is MOS then I'll buy, if it is AROS then I'll buy it.
You don't have to buy AROS, it's free. A free download will always be available from my site.
-Disclaimer- As long as I can aford to run a site :-P
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@ JoannaK
Anyhow.. IMHO it would be a lot better that No moderator who's involed into discussion on a thread (or started it) should moderate postings on that thread. There are couple not so nice examples of sites where moderation has been used for thought control and 'goodfacts' generator and I really don't like seeing Amiga.org to become like them.
If you think that is happening here at all, please say something to another moderator or webmaster. It may seem like an obvious thing to say, or just an automatic "official" response, but I for one thinks that if that were allowed to happen, it would suck considerably, and I would want to do something about it. Also remember that we can't check and double-check everything, so don't just expect us to notice and do something about it.
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@mikeymike:
If you think that is happening here at all, please say something to another moderator or webmaster. It may seem like an obvious thing to say, or just an automatic "official" response, but I for one thinks that if that were allowed to happen, it would suck considerably,
All my contributions to this thread have been deleted and I don't know who did it.
I'd prefer it if moderators wouldn't just "empty" offensive postings, but at least leave their nick (and a specific reason for deleting the posting).
I know I would be very interested to know why my postins have been deleted (after Targhen replied to them first).
Secondly, my last post was edited and the (unknown) moderator added the remark that "this member is not allowed to post on Amiga.org".
I'd like to get some more information regarding this.
-Edit-
And I'd like to have one question answered that coms up in this conext: what is Amiga.org's official policy regarding Genesi employees contributing to the site? This is no attempt to bash Amiga.org (or individual moderators), I'd just like to know.
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@People over here
In my long search for neutrality (an incredibly difficult
task) I have come to the conclusion that there are
two main ways an Amigan can become a red troll or
a blue troll.
You become a red troll when you undermine
MorphOS as a valid Amiga alternative. MorphOS
does the same thing as AmigaOS4, but using other
techniques. And this is not an opinion, this is a
simple fact that only blind people cannot see.
(at this point you can call yourself a red troll if you
don't agree with me)
You become a blue troll when you undermine
Hyperion's work. In their quest to achieve a PPC
based OS that is Amiga compatible (the same thing
as MorphOS, if you have payed attention) they have
made a lot of sacrifices and they deserve respect.
Lets wait for the final result.
(if, at this stage, you think AmigaOS4 is the evil son
of Amiga incorporated*, you can call yourself a
blue troll, because you cannot distinguish between
Amiga Inc lame decissions, and sacrificed work
from Hyperion and the other programmers worldwide).
You are not a troll if:
a) You think x86 would be a better option. I am
not personally with you but I understand your point.
My view is that x86 faces a technicall wall in a
not so distant future. (They are getting hooooot,
in a bad sense!)
b) You think AROS has no future. You are not a
troll you are plain stupid.
c) You think Amiga Incorporated has had too much
time and opportunities, but you are not obsessed
with it. Their actual influence is nearly disappearing.
This happens when you have no money.
Now, if you think I am biased, please ask yourself:
"What colour I am? "
:-D
-------------------------------------
*Amiga Incorporated == Some people without money.
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@amigaguy
If MorphOS or AmigaOS are ever really going to prosper then they need to go x86. I'm not saying they should leave PPC all together, but if you want to sell more then a few thousand copies of your OS then you need to look at targeting the 100s of millions of computers out there and there all x86.
Uh, oh. Look out for the brickbats. If my experience in saying this is anything to go by, you'll be flamed and branded an "x86 troll" in no time.
I can understand why Genesi wants PPC. They make hardware and probably couldn't compete if they were making just another x86 board. I understand that, but I just don't see how MorphOS will ever sell more than a few thousands copies.
I share this view, though most MOS supporters do not.
As for AmigaInc? I have no idea why they are going the PPC route.
They are not. However, Amiga Inc are no longer in control, either directionally or financially, so they have no choice but go along with what their partners decide. As for why Hyperion and Eyetech would nail their colours to the PPC mast, that's much easier to see.
People might fork out $99 to buy AmigaOS or MorphOS, but no one other than a few old and a few thousand of the current Amiga die hards are going to buy a "Special" computer to run it on. No Chance!
Absolutely. If the "Amiga" (and I'm using the term in the generic sense rather than the trademarked one) is ever to rise in people's consciousness again, it needs to go for as many users as possible. This means embracing all sorts of people and hardware platforms, and dropping the "niche" mentality. Niche systems are all very well, and might even be commercially viable in the short term, but it will be impossible to attract more than a dozen or so developers to such platforms, and without developers there is no software. No software means no users, etc.
It's time to put aside the differences and co-operate. Criticising people for doing things wrong or incompetence is one thing, but criticising them for making a different choice (or worse, for offering a different choice) is sheer bigotry of the kind that has been ruining this community for years.
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@ xisp
While I don't disagree with some of your definitions, the "if you don't agree with me you are a troll" is asking for trouble.
You were getting it right when you were talking about undermining the alternative, but then you went off the rails.
How can you say that "x86 has no future" and then "you are a troll if you think AROS has no future"? For starters, AROS runs on x86, but even if it didn't, your points of view are contaminating the point you are trying to make.
-
It's time to put aside the differences and co-operate. Criticising people for doing things wrong or incompetence is one thing, but criticising them for making a different choice (or worse, for offering a different choice) is sheer bigotry of the kind that has been ruining this community for years.
I agree, we are a community... and we should work together (RE: OpenAmiga).
I think the bigotry in this cimmunity stemps for decensions being made without consulting the community... Thus some pole feel let down, others be justified... it's sad, that this should have happend, but I hope that in the end it will make the community stronger... but only if we work together and are careful not listen to those of small minds...
Think different... Think Amiga (the Spiritual sense, not the Trade Maked one :-D ).
-
"The amiga media has changed. You can feel it when you read the opinions of the "journalists" and "webmasters", You can read it when you direct your browser to an Genesi sponsored site. You can smell it in the air."
The used tactics are well known: He who controls the media, controls the mind.
All that once was is no more....The community has fallen apart and is covored by a blue shadow spreading fear and doubt, haunting every red minded person until they are brainwashed or bribed with a cheap Pegasos offer. The soldiers of the blue shadow are searching every newssite and forum for any thread to this evil uprising. But true red hearts are NOT easelly corrupted. They will hold on to their faith because they know that the red/white sun will shine and will cause the blue shadow to withdraw to the dark places it came from.
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@Wayne:
His road as AmigaOS road, sorry to have missrepresented it
-
How can you say that "x86 has no future" and then "you are a troll if you think AROS has no future"? For starters, AROS runs on x86, but even if it didn't, your points of view are contaminating the point you are trying to make.
That's not right Mikey!
He said that you are not a troll for those things. :-)
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@lando
"A generic PPC board designed and manufactured by a bunch of guys in Asia (who have probably never even seen an Amiga in their lives let alone used one) that currently only runs Linux "
I don't give a toss to who produces an Amiga, the way it operates I do, and these way is Amiga exclusive way, made available by AmigaOS, and wich represents for me a better way of doing things and making them faster, but for me it was Amiga who introduce them, not MOS...
Like newton once said and paraphrasing for this situation, if MOS is where it is it's only because it has been on Giant shoulders...
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I think it shows the degeneration of this community that this has over 100 replies... thats sad...
-
I don't give a toss to who produces an Amiga, the way it operates I do, and these way is Amiga exclusive way, made available by AmigaOS, and wich represents for me a better way of doing things and making them faster, but for me it was Amiga who introduce them, not MOS...
And tell me how MorphOS and AROS operate differently from AmigaOS?
Please stay out of technical disscusions unitl you have fully versed yourself with all the facts.
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@mikeymike
about:
"if you don't agree with me you are a troll"
Sorry , I forgot the smiley
:-P
about:
"x86 has no future"
Sorry, didn't separate well the fact from the opinion.
Fact is that people can think that x86 is a viable
route. Its perfectly understandable and reasonable.
Opinion (of mine) is that x86 will have difficulties
with heat in the long run. But you can try to easily
debunk my argument, I am not an engineer.
-
All that once was is no more....The community has fallen apart and is covored by a blue shadow spreading fear and doubt, haunting every red minded person until they are brainwashed or bribed with a cheap Pegasos offer. The soldiers of the blue shadow are searching every newssite and forum for any thread to this evil uprising. But true red hearts are NOT easelly corrupted. They will hold on to their faith because they know that the red/white sun will shine and will cause the blue shadow to withdraw to the dark places it came from.
Are you nuts or are you a blue troll parodiyng a red troll?
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@KennyR
"Webb, however some might like to think, was not being objective. He was being biased, and perhaps even intentionally offensive to something he doesn't like. Admittedly, posting this as a news item was not exactly objective either: I can guess it was a matter of outrage that someone of responsibility could write something so clearly outrageous. And on that level I can understand it. To make these things known as they are is always a good thing."
I still fail to understand why don't you consider objective... you know, you can be objective and against MOS (I'm not saying it has to be), you (all) fail to explain why he isn't objective, and because 100 of you say it isn't it doesn't mean you're right either...
"It didn't really matter that is was aimed at MOS. But this is a newsletter; can you imagine the outrage if the Genesi website demanded that A1s weren't allowed at AmiWest because they were "Teron CX linux boxes"? Or amithlon or UAE or AROS were demanded to be banned from Amiwest because AInc saying that they are "emulators done by pirates" in Club Amiga? Of course it would cause a storm. And rightly so."
Amithlon is an Amiga related as Cloanto WINUAE or as any legal WINUAE or UAE, as far as the user legally have the rights to be using AMIGAOS, just for itself *UAE isn't... see you weren't being objective... ;b
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bloodline:
Originality, they don't posess that...
where I said they behave differently from AmigaOS!? I do not even know why you make such a statement as... "Please stay out of technical disscusions unitl you have fully versed yourself with all the facts."
-
@bloodline:
I never said they coulnd't or weren't doing the same things... don't put in my mouth...
PS-by the way I'm trying to make the AROS iso bootable, I burn the copy I found in your page, but after a while he starts seeking for the floopy... can you help me on that!?
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PS-by the way I'm trying to make the AROS iso bootable, I burn the copy I found in your page, but after a while he starts seeking for the floopy... can you help me on that!?
Ahhhh, you'd hit a problem there. Our ide.device still has a few bugs (with some PC Chipsets) :-(
Unfortunately, you will need a bootable Floppy disk to get it past at stage of the Boot process.
This is a known bug and is being worked on.
The CDROM you have made should work fine on another computer.
I recommend, that if you are able, you should try the disk on another computer. If at all possible.
A list of your Computer specifications would help us too.
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f we don't stop the bullshit and start getting along, there will be nothing left worth fighting over.
Amen, Wayne! Amen!
@Dave (Targhan):
We all misstep—and more than from time to time (speaking from experience ;-) ). Keep your chin up and your temperature down, you'll be back.
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@pixie
Originality, they don't posess that...
That's a double-edged argument, even more so these days.
Much of the original AmigaOS was NOT original in design, and as time has gone by lots more has been borrowed from other platforms.
Operating system technology evolves. Good ideas spread and bad ones fall by the wayside, that's the way of things. Most people who apply the phrase "the original and the best" to operating systems are talking bollox.
The new PPC generation of AmigaOS will be judged for its qualities alone, not by the achievements of its predecessors. Similarly, MorphOS and AROS should be judged by how they function, not by how long the history of their brand is. All three are part of the greater "Amiga community", together with Amithlon, UAE etc. Users of all of these will either learn to get along with each other or the community will finally die. There is no future at all as smaller fragmented communities that reject each other as alien.
P.S. and just to actually touch on the "fragmentation" argument in Webb's editorial:
The deed is done. You can't put the genie back into the bottle. Making MorphOS and AROS disappear won't make all those users return to AmigaOS with their tails between their legs. Most likely, people would just drift away to platforms with a more stable future and the greater Amiga community would shink even further. As to who is responsible for the original fragmentation, I think we all have our own opinions. Either way, does the recrimination help anyone now?
The way to combat fragmentation is not by enforcing the "one-party state", but by co-operating and applying common standards, so that users can remain within the Amiga community without having their choices reduced by doing so.
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@bloodline:
I'll try to do that, If I still find any problem I'll go trought the usual channels ;)
I do not have nothing against AROS or MOS BTW, I find them both excelent pieces of computer engeneering (they must, they are based on AmigaOS ;b ), what I can't stand is all this bitching... even because people never pick what was said to try to refute it, they always go the easier route saying you're a troll, you're starting fud or you are a BAF... and this for me is sad.
-
However, the Amiga market is quite small and all this pretend Amiga can do is fragment it.
Fragment/split the Amiga market... Where have I heard these words... Oh, I remember! It was Fleecy Moss. He was speaking about MorphOS as well.
The only difference was that Amiga Inc then wanted the classic line and the classic AmigaOS to die.
Now? They are chasing Genesi, the Pegasos and MorphOS with the rebadged AmigaONE and OS4 which will arrive some day...
That's what I call the split of the Amiga market. I always wondered how can someone split a market when there is no one else. In a market which was shut down and declared dead by Amiga Inc themselves in the first place.
Wake up. Without Pegasos/MorphOS there wouldn't be AmigaONE/OS4. The beloved past'd be erradicted by now. If this was a split as you say it, then I'm glad that this split happened.
They deserve thanks for their unbelieveable efforts, not blind hatred in the first place.
That is of course only MY opinion. "Obviously, there are people who don't agree with" me.
-
I agree with amigaupdate. I think that to break into fragments such a small market is not good, and to the one that he doesn't like my opinion that he/she drinks water.
It already tires a little this of the morphos and pegasos.
aros? I prefers to wait the os5 (at the 2015 I calculate) that amiga will run in the wintel, amd, etc...... Because of that it treats Aros?
Amiga inc. it is the one that has give a new Amiga again, and that it is the only reality.
-
Ugh....
Screw it. I'm going back to camp.
*kd7ota pitches a tent and sleeps on all this rubbish.
:-D :-D :-D :-D
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@pixie
It seems Trolling and FUD are in everyone tonges for everything today...
Yes,
I agree there too. Dont know why that term made its way here. But I guess that term will make people feel superior and sound smarter.
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@Red-Redentor5
"
Amiga inc. it is the one that has give a new Amiga again, and that it is the only reality.
"
A parallel reality, I suppose.
The only thing resembling a new Amiga today is a Pegasos.
When OS4 is out you can consider AmigaOne a new Amiga in the same way as the Pegasos.
But don't tell me that Amiga Incorporated has helped
in any way to achieve this. From day one until today the only thing they have done is losing money.
They only gave permission and Eyetech-Hyperion
done the rest.
-
" They only gave permission and Eyetech-Hyperion
done the rest. "
correct, I know that hyperion/Eyetech is those that make it.
But let us say that Amiga Inc. is the one that impels the project and it grants licenses, this is this way.
As for the AmigaOne, this is already a reality, only awaiting the os4 that I don't believe that nobody already doubts that it will leave.
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Hi friends,
wow I hardly have time to ramble anymore...so I get to add comment 143 now....lol, well you gotta get up early...geez
Well the person who made the classic 'Amiga Name' argument, doesn't understand....and you all failed to take him to task, for his basic premise.
'Fragmenting' a market doesn't make it smaller.
It's like saying communism worked out great because it was more efficient and didn't duplicate effort.
it didn't work out, and that efficiency equaled 'no jobs'.
Having 30 McDonalds in the same city, is such a waste, why not one really really big McDonald's...ermmm because its inconvenient and that efficiency helps no one...not people trying to get jobs...not people looking for a close McDonald's...and not McDonald's corporation either, for that matter.
OK, now back to Amiga...is MOS 'killing' Amiga.
Well first...NO
2nd...Amiga doesn't have a product to sell, so its IMPOSSIBLE to hurt their revenue stream.
Not having a revenue stream makes them quite immune to fluctuations in the marketplace.
You want me to believe your lamo un-intelligent
knee-jerk thoughtless Amiga Name trolling....well
first at a *minimum*...supply an alternative to MOS.
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Well at first I believed that that the blacksheep MorphOS/Pegasos was going to be a bad thing for the Amiga community. But I have changed my tune these days. With 2 efforts going, one is surely going to push the other. I really like the Pegasos and MOS is warming up to me as time goes by. Genesi and their efforts is a good thing.
:-D
-
Tell me, if I am in line to buy a lotto ticket, then at the last second go "nah, I'll never win." Then you, right behind me in line, buy the winning lotto ticket, the ticket that would have been mine if I had stayed put, do you owe it to me to give me the lotto ticket, since I would have had it if I hadn't walked away?
no id tell you to something off as the lotto in this country is done by people picking there own numbers and there is no way you would have picked the same numbers as me. :-? :-?
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Right now we need this little infighting, to get us tough enough to handle Microsoft. It's like inner-team rivalries, or how martial artist dojo's often times have 2 hot-shots that always are butting heads. Only through the interior conflict can either one emerge strong enough to beat Microsoft.
Your joking neither side will win against microsoft . :-o
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@gary_c
As discussed in another thread, I don't think the ranking is the place to advertise corporate affiliations. Rankings should be forum-related, either based on number of posts or a forum function such as moderator or webmaster. The signature is the place to state company or organization affiliations. This is the practice in e-mail and web forums generally and makes sense. It keeps the ranking system consistent. [end of ranking rant ]
I couldn't agree more. Please remove "Genesi USA" from the rankings, unless similar status is given to Amiga Inc, Hyperion, Eyetech, even AROS etc (where would one stop?).
This is silly. Put your company affiliations in the signature, and leave the rankings for the purpose they were designed for. Targhan's status as a Genesi employee should be irrelevant on Amiga.org, and his role as moderator, as with any other moderator, should be totally independent of company affiliation or political preference.
If Amiga.org is to retain its objective reputation as Wayne clearly intended when he stepped down, then the moderators must carry out their duties as if they were completely neutral. Anyone who feels incapable of doing so should resign.
note: this is not aimed at any one person, but it's a concern at this point. I'm sure Kees will carry out his duties impeccably, and I urge the other moderators to follow his example.
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I'm not God neither I pretend to know everything, but on these days everyone seems to have or at least be taking some kind degree at bitching at anything that is against their opinion without substantially backing it up, only voice calling.
It's very well pointed by the Editor himself that the editorial and introduction are his thoughts and his opinions alone, and being as such they can't be anything else much less objective, despite having some justifications to back his way of thinking at least way more constructive then all the flames around here...
At least he's the first to agree that people do think different, that many will disagree with him, after all he voice his thoughts as an opinion and not as facts as many of you do, humility that what lacks in this community, this 'mine is bigger than yours' thing is destroying it, and I don't see how an 'objective' webmaster can put in a pro-genesi site such appeal for flaming.
I don't find any of the 'offences' having any substantial claims against what was said, at least I would like to ear from you on this specific subject: how the market will not fragment if auctions from both sides aren't taken by them or from the developers themselves...
If people can't talk the talks why to talk at all!?
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@Wayne
These are what I find the main points in Brad's editorial
> Editor's Thoughts and Introduction:
> We were left wondering about some attendees, however. We simply
> cannot understand what the MorphOS/Pegasos team was doing there.
> For that matter, we cannot understand what they are doing at any
> Amiga show.
> There are only two things, both bad, that can come out of the Genesi
> efforts:
> failure for Genesi or depletion of the Amiga market.
> If the Amiga community were huge, it could probably support an
> unauthorized clone system with no problems. That might even lead to
> additional software, since presumably more units would be sold.
> However, the Amiga market is quite small and all this pretend Amiga
> can do is fragment it. We can't understand why any Amiga supporter
> would want to encourage that.
> Obviously, there are people who don't agree with us. That's the way of
> the world, there will always be many opinions about most things.
> We only hope it works out well for everyone, especially Amiga.
> We also hope you enjoy this special issue.
As you see Wayne, it has opinion tags all marked all over him, what I do not understand is why shouldn't someone have the right to express himself even more when it is expressed so clearly that it's his own opinion, one certainly have right to use his opinion to fight for what he stands for, if that wasn't the case Princess Diana would be only a Princess, U2 would be just a group and so on...
BTW Wayne, calling "defender" instead of "cheerleader" isn't any less offensive if the feeling still is the same...
-
What'd be necessary is a request to the forum engine developers to include support for moving news items to forums. Methinks.
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There is very good reason why Brad Webb is being "attacked" here, but no good reason why he has to "attack" MorphOS or Genesi.
He quotes "we" but this is obviously a personal opinion of the most blatant type. "We" might mean "AmigaUpdate", but his own "staff" Joanne, who wrote that article, had nothing but praise for us.
The big news that "my kid loaned out the PPC card that OS4 ran on" kind of takes the stance that he wants it known and wants some fame out of it.
So what? Now you're holding the PPC card that ran OS4 at Amiwest. So? We have 4 machines that were at Amiwest running MorphOS. That's 3 more machines than you have PPC cards, Brad.
*sigh*
Brad is just going out for bragging rights. He's in the Amiga/Hyperion good books now, and wants to make it know that he's the Saviour Of The Show as far as Amiga's presence is concerned.
Given that the show was Genesi, ImageFX running on MorphOS, a guy with Globes, and Jeri with the COne.. none of which are "related by blood" to Amiga.. and not much else besides a few tables littered with decrepit Amiga hardware, I don't see what the show was going to be WITHOUT Genesi to fill up the whole side of a room, and providing Kermit an OS with some performance behind it!
It's sick that Brad said those things not because I'm employed by Genesi, not because Targhan or Wayne is employed by Genesi, it's because he says that we're fragmenting the Community, where just being faithful in Amiga would.. I dunno, save it maybe, by his definition.
Well, with people moving to MorphOS, we *are* reducing the Amiga Community, that's true. We're making them the MorphOS community.
Why are they moving? Well, it's not because we bribed them, or because we practice mind control and subliminal messaging, it's because we have a product out there that meets expectations, it's cheap, it's fun, it's everything that Amiga haven't produced in the last 5 years.
So if the Amiga Community whittles down to 35 fanboys on a secret mailing list, with Fleecy ordering around PPC cards for shows, so be it: MorphOS will thrive on, and the spirit will follow us, and not because we did ANYTHING dastardly other than produce what everyone wanted.
Sorry Brad, but if people want to use MorphOS, then they'll use MorphOS. No amount of positioning yourself or your son as Jesus, and no amount of decrying us will sway people who see us as the only shipping and active proponents of the Amiga philosophy.
When Hyperion have a real OS on the shelves that runs on hardware built this Millennium, and Eyetech can provide more than 10 machines a week on a 6-month waiting list, then you can bash us all you like.
When, and only if...
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@pixie
Brad Webb revealed himself as a total bigot. Furthermore, although the editorial is expressed as an opinion, it makes extensive use of the Royal "we", which suggests that either Brad has serious delusions about his own status, or he is presuming to speak for everyone else who contributes to AmigaUpdate.
Flamebait is flamebait, no matter in what capacity it is expressed. The criticism so far has been much milder than the editorial deserves, IMHO.
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"There is very good reason why Brad Webb is being "attacked" here, but no good reason why he has to "attack" MorphOS or Genesi."
Yeah... I see them on one of the first posts where KennyR states:
"Even people not on the MOS side would have to admit that Webb's statements are what I'd expect from an average namefollower ann.lu troll.
Its small-minded intolerant idiots like that who are shrinking the Amiga, not companies who are actually producing hardware and software.
Webb, you win my arse of the year award."
The way this 'announcement' was made by Tahrgan was only to stirr up flames, and that's it...
BTW... what happened to all Targhan posts!?
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no id tell you to something off as the lotto in this country is done by people picking there own numbers and there is no way you would have picked the same numbers as me.
I was referring to the ever popular scratch-off lottery tickets found in the us.
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@ bhoggett:
When I ear BBRV, GreenBoy, Fleccy or Ben Hermans I know exactly what to expect from them, and I analise what they say, as for what Brad has said, I deal for the same way, I do not took it for granted, I took it as an opinion as it is...
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@bhoggett
Actually I'd like Hyperion, Eyetech and AInc to have their own little taglines there too. That way all of us would be able to see what's going on. We'd also know that "hey, that guy works for Hyperion, he might be the guy to ask about feature x, y and z."
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@downix
Actually I'd like Hyperion, Eyetech and AInc to have their own little taglines there too. That way all of us would be able to see what's going on. We'd also know that "hey, that guy works for Hyperion, he might be the guy to ask about feature x, y and z."
What's wrong with using signatures for this purpose? Heck, you can even grant everyone from a particular company a company-wide avatar.
The ranking part is just that. It differentiates between users and moderators, and it reflects people's position within Amiga.org. As things stand now the impression is that Genesi employees have a special standing on this site, and leaves it unclear whether Targhan is moderating in his role as Genesi representative or Amiga.org moderator.
Taglines are one thing, but Amiga.org must remain impartial and objective, and it must be seen to be that way. If people cannot differentiate between their roles for any one company and those at Amiga.org, then they should step down for everyone's sake.
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I couldn't agree more. Please remove "Genesi USA" from the rankings, unless similar status is given to Amiga Inc, Hyperion, Eyetech, even AROS etc (where would one stop?).
Amiga Inc has had this status since before Genesi USA. It's not our fault they do not bother to post here so they are not visible. I'm not sure if Hyperion has this or not, it may need checked into.
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When Hyperion have a real OS on the shelves that runs on hardware built this Millennium, and Eyetech can provide more than 10 machines a week on a 6-month waiting list, then you can bash us all you like.
Excuse me, but you aren't currently delivering any new machines either.
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BTW... what happened to all Targhan posts!?
Apparently he felt compeled to remove them.
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Can I have "Cult of AROS" as my ranking?
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Casper: well.. Besides that little point Neko's comment made a lot sense. :-P
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Can I have "Cult of AROS" as my ranking?
could you get a second one for your openamiga affiliations too? :lol:
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When we do produce machines, we have been and will be doing them at the rate of hundreds a week. We don't have lead time waiting for boards to come from Taiwan. We don't have a deadline for testing them. We can flow through a production run with efficiency and grace. We control the machines, we control the sourcing of parts, we control the design..
We successfully put out an OS update this week, a quite comprehensive software package the week before... a software package which includes most of the apps that users want or need, including Games, Paint, Office apps (soon!), CD Burners (next update :), video hardware support...
We even did really well at Amiwest in the eyes of people including Ben Hermans. If Bill McEwen were there he would have come away impressed too, I can guarantee that.
We talked and demonstrated to a lot of people who didn't really know what MorphOS was about, including Joe Torre, who was amazed (and relieved :) that we could run Amiga software and used all the same ideologies..
We're turning heads, and not just the small people.
And we have the resources to turn more heads, produce more machines, and develop better technologies, for more markets than a bunch of snidey Brad-style fanboys could ever dream about.
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could you get a second one for your openamiga affiliations too?
"Cult of AROS and Alpha of OpenAmiga" as my Ranking please :-)
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...And we have the resources to turn more heads, produce more machines, and develop better technologies, for more markets....
"we have the technology, we can rebuild him"
but 6 million dollars seemed a bit low
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@Casper
Are you sure? How do you know?
In fact, there were machines waiting to be sold by Pegasos-uk only last week. So new boards are still availible mon ami.
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Pegasos-uk
???
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http://www.pegasos-uk.com
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@bloodline
Pegasos-UK (http://www.pegasos-uk.com)
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for more markets than a bunch of snidey Brad-style fanboys could ever dream about.
Please be careful with the labels, it only throws fuel on the fire.
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@redrumloa:
The label here is well placed and well glued.
"I don't know why anyone would want to ruin the Amiga market by releasing products!"
.. snidey, whiney fanboys.
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From Neko:
I don't see what the show was going to be WITHOUT Genesi to fill up the whole side of a room...
;-) Genesi didn't fill up a whole side of the room, sir. They filled up three tables along one edge, from about the middle, almost to one corner.
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@quixote
Um, if you noticed, AMiWest consisted of 2 rooms, opened up in the middle into one big expanse, but still 2 rooms. Genesi occupied a good 70% of one wall in one of those two rooms, I think that is what Neko was trying to say.
Of course I could be wrong. But we were one of the largest groups there, I don't think anyone could argue that.
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@Pixie
Are Boavista any good? because we stuffed them 2-0 at the Molineux last Friday.
btw regarding 'what are MOS team doing at an Amiga show'.... doing what they do best mate.. being parasites. ;)
Best Regards
Skyraker.
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Are you sure? How do you know?
In fact, there were machines waiting to be sold by Pegasos-uk only last week. So new boards are still availible mon ami.
@downix
I did use a poor choice of words. What I meant was that Genesi aren't currently producing any new boards. I felt that Neko's attack on Eyetech was a bit unwarranted since AFAIK Eyetech are currently producing more new boards than Genesi does. I also wonder how Neko knows how many boards Eyetech deliver per week since he's a Genesi employee.
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@Skyraker
They should be, they went through the semi final of uefa cup... ;b
PS- But still I'm from Sporting
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@Casper
I am also a Genesi employee, and I don't know how many. Heck, and I ran one of the sales channels.
As for production, Genesi poduced boards only a few weeks ago. We don't spit them out 1-2 at a time, we do in lots of 50 or more, to reduce the cost, then sell them till we run low, then spit out more. Plus, don't forget, the announced release of the Pegasos II is next month.
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amigaguy gave, as his opinion:
. . . but if you want to sell more then a few thousand copies of your OS then you need to look at targeting the 100s of millions of computers out there and there(sic) all x86
I fail to conprehend your argument here - these users are quite 'happy' with their Winblows, and are unlikely to even realize that there are alternative options! . . .People seem to think AmigaOS couldn't compete in the x86 market?
Different market - a highly GENERIC one! WTF?? If you can't get people to buy AmigaOS for say $99 bucks to run on their current computer then HOW IN THE HELL do you think you can get them to pay $99 for Amiga OS and $1000 + for a 'special' computer to run it on?
Blame Napster ... and you TOTALLY ignor the LARGE problem of having to support ALL the differnt (sometimes incompatible) expansions and options which is SO VARIED that even Linux can't do it!
People might fork out $99 to buy AmigaOS or MorphOS, but no one other than a few old and a few thousand of the current Amiga die hards are going to buy a "Special" computer to run it on. No Chance!
Going by your reasoning, Macs and MacOS-X MUST not even exist!?!
Wait! It (System + OS) does ... you're shot down!
__________________________________________________
"You are false data, so I shall ignore you" -(Bomb No.20) __________________________________________________
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@Bradd Webb
[color=CC6600]HUH???[/color][/b] :-o
What the hell are you doing??? Are you on drugs???
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Pixie wrote:
If by any chance MOS makes AmigaOS colapse, I'd say F*ck MOS...
Hear hear!! 8-)
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@TheMagicM
Haven't I seen you before on IRC?
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Amigaguy said:
If MorphOS or AmigaOS are ever really going to prosper then they need to go x86.
:-o
DUDE! x86 IS LIKE A MICROWAVE OVEN!!! You DON'T want to play with an unreliable set you cook eggs with!
Seriously--I used x86 pc's of today and they crash more than my Amiga!! I'm DEAD serious!
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GadgetMaster stated:
As for beating Microsoft....A very distant dream at this stage i'm afraid.
*AHEM*
http://amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44675 (http://amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44675)
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Amiga: Dead
MorphOS: Alive
Brad: Bitter
Give it a rest already. A market with no products is not a market. Also how the hell can you blame Genesi for Amiga Inc's incompetance?
...oh if only Genesi weren't around...then I could pretend AmigaOS 4 isn't late...
Dude, you're jumping to conclusions. Here, let me help you.
*grabs 1983 IBM PC...
*WHACK* :-o
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A term comes to mind, that includes the words:
Nose Face Spite
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Poster: DanDude Date: 2003/8/14 2:19:05
Amigaguy said:
Quote:
If MorphOS or AmigaOS are ever really going to prosper then they need to go x86.
DUDE! x86 IS LIKE A MICROWAVE OVEN!!! You DON'T want to play with an unreliable set you cook eggs with!
You better take a good look at those 970s before you go on about power/heat of x86. Want a conventional oven made of CPUs, go make them with Power4s.
Seriously--I used x86 pc's of today and they crash more than my Amiga!! I'm DEAD serious!
Use a better OS then. I typically have systems up for more then 90 days and would have better up time if power failures didn't drain the UPSs before power is restored. There are very few reasons for a x86 to be rebooted, one is power failure, second is hardware upgrade, third is rebooting into a different OS, and the last is for kernel upgrades.
Dammy
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Poster: dammy Date: 2003/8/14 11:43:39
You better take a good look at those 970s before you go on about power/heat of x86. Want a conventional oven made of CPUs, go make them with Power4s
So, you're saying they're in the same boat for heat stress?? I rather not buy a pc with an updated 1983 IBM pc architecture, and besides, I laugh at those who get a tower with antifreeze coolant just to cool their new CPUs. HA! THAT tells ya something! I'll shop for another manufacturer that sells PowerPC CPUs with less heat if I must.
Use a better OS then.
Oh, absolutely I will!! :-D