Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Staticman on October 06, 2003, 04:50:16 PM
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Hello there. Heres some good things to say to all you chirpy AmigaOne owners.
I ordered a G3SE in November 2002 and it arrived Christmas eve. It wouldnt work from the start. Oh what a fun christmas that was. After a day of owning it I felt like smashing it to pieces. Nothing would boot whatsoever and when it did get so far it would crash at the logon screen.
I called Eyetech and they sorted it out. After a while they switched it to KDE.
Next set of problems. Instability. I tried everything and nothing would resolve. The machine was basically unusable, it was logging out randomly. I posted on sites like this for help and didnt get much really. Then it wouldnt even boot KDE after a while for some reason, so I tried a re-install.
Then it decided not to read any CD's.
I just left it there gathering dust, too stressful to even think about to be perfectly honest.
Fast forward to about 3 weeks ago, I called Eyetech and explained about the constant problems. They said if I replaced the ROM chip and installed Debian instead of Suse it would make things better.
I explained to them on the phone, I am a bit of a novice and dont really know how to do this. "Well the instructions are very clear" they say. I say "Well could I just send it back. I dont really know what I'm doing here and I dont want to make things worse". The phone conversation ends.
As I'm getting prepared to post the whole thing off I recieve an envelope from Eyetech which apparently contains a ROM puller and a ROM chip. We did not spot this at the time. There were instructions saying you need a paperclip (not a rom puller) so we got our paperclip and got prepared to remoev the "ROM". The instructions were very clear indeed... right. The photograph supposedly illustrating how to remove the ROM properly is somewhat poor quality and the mans finger is completely covering the ROM chip, thus making it impossible to see which part to remove (like I said on the phone, were novice).
After trying hard to remove the thing we ended up removing the ROM chip AND the socket and most of the pins. We knew instantly the motherboard was now well and truly ####ed. We call Eyetech and they say there is nothing we can do now. After that we discover the ROM chip and puller hidden in a tiny sponge on the back of the envelope, with the replacement ROM (if we had seen this we would have known which exact part to remove).
As you can imagine I am furious with this, after 10 months of sheer hell from investing in the new "Amiga" computer, I am over £900 down, not going to get a penny back really and I feel like smashing the thing up.
Such a thing as this is what has driven me more and more away from the Amiga community.
One furious ex-Amigan.
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I feel sorry for your loss, but this was a early/beta board, you should expect some minor problems then.
I think you should have asked for example here on how to replace the rom chip, sure you would get help... A bit too late now i guess though :-(
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but anyway... no way solder the socket back on?
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EDIT: after reading
this (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1065454293&category=unmoderated&start=1&46) my opinon has changed, although I'm still suspicious ;)
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Did you damage anything while removing the socket? If not (although my guess is the heat from the iron may have damaged several other chips) then you should be able to get it re-surface mounted at some electronics repair shop.
- Mike
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How much damage did you do to the PCB, and what do you want for the lot?
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see my reply at aw.net
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Havent really got much of an idea of how much damage there is but eyetech said the board is basically dead but they havent seen it so im not completely sure.
i havent switched it on since ive just locked it away, i get more stressed looking at it
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If some one is this novice why in the hell does he buy a beta bord wich just runs linux ?!?
I think it's sad that it didn't work out as you planned, but atleast here in sweden it says that buying an AmigaONE earlybird is NOT for novice people.
You knew what you got your self in to and now you are angry because :-?
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Thats a good outlook nickman, dont give proper support?, blame the customer !.
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The reason being Nickman is that I was already sick and tired of waiting for a new Amiga machine to arrive as are most.
When I explain I'm novice and cannot do the job, and they dont do it then its their fault not mine because I had already explained that I was incapable of doing the job.
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meerschaum wrote:
Thats a good outlook nickman, dont give proper support?, blame the customer !.
As i understand he had support. He had a peoblem they solwed it. They sent him a new rom and the tools and instructions to replace it.
Ok maybe it could have been better (I don't know cause i haven't seen the instructions). But if a product comes with a disclamer saying "only for more advanced users" then i don't think it's for a novice person.
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meerschaum wrote:
Thats a good outlook nickman, dont give proper support?, blame the customer !.
I feel sorry for the guy too - I've also dismantled my A1 and put it away until OS4 is out. Linux was bursting my head. Having said that, my Pegasos experience has hardly been trouble free either.
***Application is meditating***
Having said that, Nickman is absolutely right - it says quite clearly on the Eyetech website:
This of course will not suit everybody, and if you want a switch-on-and-go AmigaOne system then this Earlybird offer is not for you.
I still reckon he should be able to get it fixed though.
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Staticman wrote:
The reason being Nickman is that I was already sick and tired of waiting for a new Amiga machine to arrive as are most.
When I explain I'm novice and cannot do the job, and they dont do it then its their fault not mine because I had already explained that I was incapable of doing the job.
Sorry can't totaly agree with you there. When you bought the board you knew (or didn't you) that is was not an easy task to handle it. But you took the risk because you wanted it so bad. That risk was yours to take.
BUT i do understand that you are down. But i don't think that reparing your board is impossible, but you should leav it to someone who knows how to do such a thing.
Again i'm sorry for your loss :-(
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@Meerschaum
First of all, as you are very well aware this has nothing to do with Amiga Inc.
Second, support by Eyetech has been extremely good for those A1 owners I know, offcourse there will be some misunderstandings once in a while, that happens
But why on earth is Staticman trying to install a board on his own when he obviously doesnt have a clue about how to do it, this sounds like a stunt even my mom couldn't have done any better!!
You complain about Eyetech sending the rom and the tool for people to "fix their own hardware".
I believe that would actually be considered as good service by other persons than you.
I would be happy that I didn't need to return the board to have the ROM installed ;)
And please keep in mind that a new ROM upgrade doesn't equal faulty hardware!!.
Finally if Staticman still has his board and wants to sell it, I'm interested :-D
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Troels_E wrote:
You complain about Eyetech sending the rom and the tool for people to "fix their own hardware".
I believe that would actually be considered as good service by other persons than you.
I would be happy that I didn't need to return the board to have the ROM installed ;)
And please keep in mind that a new ROM upgrade doesn't equal faulty hardware!!.
I totaly agree. If i could get a new rom and not have to send off the whole board THAT would be excellent support.
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god thanks I had no such problems with my peggie.
anyway, if you didn't damage board circuits but only socket it could be fixed.
You shouldn't have touched that rom. User is not allowed to do such modifications and it voids the guarantee. On the other hand producer is obliged to fix their product if it was their fault.
I hope Eyetech will respect guarantee anyway and fix/exchange your board (it was their job to install good rom in the first place!).
I hope they will, because its too small market to lose customers.
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from my point of view you should use your right of changing this board until it really works. afaik EU-right says that the manufacturer of any piece of hw may try to repair it 3 times over and then HAS to change it.
on the other hand some of the things happened seem to be your (staticman) fault.
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Nickman wrote:
Troels_E wrote:
You complain about Eyetech sending the rom and the tool for people to "fix their own hardware".
I believe that would actually be considered as good service by other persons than you.
I would be happy that I didn't need to return the board to have the ROM installed ;)
And please keep in mind that a new ROM upgrade doesn't equal faulty hardware!!.
I totaly agree. If i could get a new rom and not have to send off the whole board THAT would be excellent support.
Well sorry but I disagree completely.
They offered to take it back and that was the option I was going to take. But instead they sent me the instructions to do it.
Another thing you should know is that nothing was said at all about the machine being for "advanced" users. Look at the adverts in last years issues of Total Amiga magazine if you dont believe me.
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@Staticman
"then its their fault not mine because I had already explained that I was incapable of doing the job."
Edit by Kees - personal attack
I must admit I feel very sorry for you but can't see how you can blame Eyetech anything!
Do you have acces to a digital camera, then try and take some pictures so Eyetech could get a chance to see how badly you ruined your board. And please take care of the camera ;)
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Well sorry but I disagree completely.
They offered to take it back and that was the option I was going to take. But instead they sent me the instructions to do it.
Another thing you should know is that nothing was said at all about the machine being for "advanced" users. Look at the adverts in last years issues of Total Amiga magazine if you dont believe me.
When you got the rom update. did you call and ask again if you could send it back as you still didn't think you were capable of doing it yourself ?
Now the whole thing changes now that you said that you didn't know that it was for advanced users only. The one that put in the ad should be blamed then.
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That "one" happens to be Eyetech.
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Jurasic Camper: you can talk here too.. It's not illegal or something
:)
IMHO Basic problem is that Eyetech (or reseller) sold untested
prototype level goods to end users without enough warnings at the
time and didn't offer reasonalble board-switch policy for making them
fixed. They should never assume normal user to do hardware work on
board ..
And, technically, taking Rom out of socked and putting new one in
ain't the hardest thing in the world, BUT if user can't do it (and
instructions are bad).. They (Eyetech) should offer reasonable
alternative.
Ah well. at least This user should be given some compensation. I can't
tell what would be reasonable in the end.. but apparently that system
was never (fully) working. But OTOH he should have send this broken
hardware back much sooner.. Waiting over 1/2 year maked thigs
complicated..
My advice to original poster. Contact local Better Business Bureau ...
If you are on EU.. there are good chances thigs sot our that way.
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They offered to take it back and that was the option I was going to take. But instead they sent me the instructions to do it.
You should have just sent it away as you say your a novice so Eyetech should do what was needed,
if you did mess up something then Eyetech should charge for labour, parts etc instead of sending stuff to you when you told them you did not know what to do.
This is unacceptable Eyetech, sort it out.
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I agree wholeheartedly with these 2 last posts.
Thanks JoannaK for the info.
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Should have just gone with your gut and sent it back with the package they sent you and a letter.
Or you could have taken it to a PC repair shop to have trained personel change out the ROM chip.
If you don't know what your doing, get help.
You could try taking it to a PC shop now and see if they can repair it by putting the socket back on then installing the ROM.
Alway check every nook and krany of a package. Turn it inside out if you have to. Little things tend to hide in the least expected places.
P.S. This is from experience. I bent the pins in my 2.04 ROM installing it in my A500. Luckly everything was fine when I straightened them out and eventually got it in. Oh, I also destroyed the Agnus socket when I tried to install a Fat Agnus. The local PC repair shop was my savior that day. So, it's not dead until you try every thing or give up.
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In my opinon? he should have sent it back to eyetech immediatly when they wanted him to tinker with his own board.
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meerschaum wrote:
In my opinon? he should have sent it back to eyetech immediatly when they wanted him to tinker with his own board.
That i can't argue with.
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I agree
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While I am completely on the other side of the fence, I can certainly see how this situation could be the result of some gross misunderstandings. You know, Murphy's Law and all of that. Have you tried to contact Eyetech again to let them know what kind of situation you are in and how frustrated you are?
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I did that today. They recommended Home Insurance so I can make a claim to get at least some money out of it.
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@Staticman
If you spoke eyetech in the same manner as you just spoke to everyone on IRC it's little wonder they did nothing to help you.
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While I find that an odd suggestion, I can't help but to be impressed with that logic! I mean it has never occured to me that a damaged computer could be covered under home/apartment insurance!
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Yup, they can be. Check your policy.A few years ago, my gf's cousin got a new laptop that way. Fell off the dinner table when he moved something else. Shattered the screen. Instead of just paying to have a new screen connected, they paid for a new laptop. They totaled out his old laptop and told him he could keep it as unrepairable junk. So, he took it into a repair shop for a new screen and ended up with two.
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It's rediculis that a computer board seller tells a user to rip apart his motherboard and replace roms/etc... I mean sure in our genre it isnt to much of a stretch, but its still an unprofessional response to a user having bugs in the hardware in my opinon of course.
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Now as the warranty is void, get someone capable to check if the damage can be repaired. There is nothing you can loose with expert advise.
"Well the instructions are very clear" they say. I say "Well could I just send it back. I dont really know what I'm doing here and I dont want to make things worse". The phone conversation ends.
That despite this conversation they send you tools... Weirdo.
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Should have bought the g4 xe instead mine works fine .I still think eyetech should sort it out these boards are not cheap and they should have done it after you said you were a novice. :-?
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@Argo
Then, I would probably suggest for Staticman to do the same (assuming he has insurance).
@Sky
C'mon cut the guy some slack; he's hot under the collar with an expensive broken computer. :-(
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@Targhan
I guess mate, but there was no need to come on channel and start hollering at everyone... we were all asleep ;)
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@meershaum
The ridiculous part is that the user, who doesn't know what he's doing goes ahead and does it anyway instead of stressing to the technical support person that he does not know what he is doing. Once he went ahead and did it, he (pardon the expression) screwed himself.
It isn't all that uncommon for some hardware/device vendors to tell you the "unofficial" way to do things. I have an ARQ 1-20 (http://www.request.com) and while they don't support customers upgrading their own equipment, they tell you how to do it, and I have upgraded my own - twice - without fail. They do note that doing it yourself voids your warranty and you'll have to pay $$ for repairs that are result of your tinkering.
I assume that the person at Eyetech stressed that any warranties would be NULL and void if the installation/upgrade/swap was done by the customer, no?
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Targhan: Remembering it was not working in months (never?) before this
'incident' happened, and I must have also affected to his attitude
towards all this. If I had that kind off stuff in my hands I'd would
use a REAL bad language.
I do understand this all hastiness and errors (on both seller and
buyer side) comes from dire need to have New Amiga. unfortunately
there are things (like OS making) where timelines can (and often do)
slip and results are not pretty.
Good thing is that currently sold AmigaOne hardware is better than
year old ones (and OS4 has definitely made progress too),
unfortunately it's a too little too late to many people.
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EDIT: appears this is a young kid or something ;(
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@HMetal
He DID stress that he can't do it,but Eyetechs reply was something along
the line "it's dead easy,even the worst dummy can do it".
Also this is not about updating,but about fixing something defunc from
day one,and the main problem is that Eyetech didn't have a proper quality
test done (or how did the write-protected ROMs slip by), which made such
friggling neccasary.
Writing about a paperclip (yikes!!), while sending the right tool, and
giving unclear photos/instructions doesn't put a good light onto Eyetech.
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The ridiculous part is that the user, who doesn't know what he's doing goes ahead and does it anyway instead of stressing to the technical support person that he does not know what he is doing.
Wow is this guy getting a backlash. While I agree the customer should not have attempted it himself, if all available information is correct Eyetech is at fault.
Eyetech forgot the golden rule in retail.
THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
Eyetech should have never attempted to make the customer do it himself if he said he was a novice, and apparently Etech admitted there was a problem with the rom.
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@ Staticman
I am sorry to hear about your situation. When you have spent that kind of money you just expect things to work or to get the help you need to get it working (or simply having it replaced), even if it is targeted to very experienced Linux users.
I am also sorry to see some of the replies you got from your fellow A1/Eyetech supporters (here and on ann.lu). I understand that you were very keen to get yourself a new "Amiga", and supporting the company that made them available by doing so, and perhaps you wanted it so much that you simply overlooked the fact that the systems was not really ready yet and that it would take some experience in both HW and Linux to get it working? Perhaps you overlooked the fact that Eyetech outsources their repairs of the €900 A1 hardware to their customers?
Anyway, what's done is done. Eyetech gave you new components and told you to fix your board yourself, and by doing so you damaged it. But don't throw it away. A socket (if that is the only thing you broke) is replacable. You should try to find a TV repair shop or similar that has the equipment and experience on surface soldering. They should be able to replace the broken socket with the new one and place the new ROM chip in that. Hopefully your A1 will be more stable after that.
BTW, did Eyetech explain why you would need to replace Suse with Debian?
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@Staticman
I think that this unfortunate situation resulted because both parties made mistakes. It is sometimes easy for experts to think that a procedure is simple because they find it easy themselves.
As an experienced techie, I would have welcomed the 'easy fix' and would have thanked Eytech for the free upgrade. But I realise that not everyone is in my position.
When the problems persisted and it was found that some "push-in" ROM chips were the solution, you say that you insisted on them undertaking this feat and you say that they agreed to do this but still sent the chip and extraction tool.
There was no obligation for you to attempt the upgrade just because you had the parts. If you were not confident enough then you should have sent it back together with the chip as originally agreed.
The postage could have been shared aswell i.e. you pay one way and they pay for the return.
Another option to save on postage would have been to let someone local that has more experience perform the upgrade.
All this is irrelevant now as you have caused physical damage to the board.
I assume it is still repairable, its worth showing someone to check.
Can you post some hi-res pics of the damage?
To cut your losses you could sell the board to those that have made an offer to you.
To put things into perspective, I doubt that any company would accept goods back in a phsically damaged state. Warranties normally only cover manufacturing defects. But then again not too many companies would let you attempt an arkward upgrade. Most would perfom an upgrade but at a charge.
I can see that you are far from happy. How about letting someone else talk calmly to Eytech on your behalf. They maybe able get a better result. Maybe both parties can agree on an acceptable outcome.
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this is the reason i choose to waite for the complete A1 and os4 system. already knew i was unable to use linux and the likes, don't think its fair that eyetech should carry the complete blame. i suppect pulling a wild tiger off a slab of raw steak would have been easer than replacing that rom to some people, so if you already knew you couldn't do it you shouldn't have tried...but sorry for your loss. :-(
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You could throw A1 board away, install x86 board and go for Windows.
Better than nothing?
And maybe call consumer officials UK, but I've no idea how consumer
laws work in UK. Maybe you can get replacement board, maybe not.
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So your saying HMetal its a professional thing to do to tell a customer 'heres some parts go do it yourself'.
I am not hmetal, but i do think that was a professional thing to do. The AmigaONE was advertised as a early beta board, then the users SHOULD expect some problems, and also should be advanced enough to manage to do this himself. I think it was pretty generous of eyetech to send the rom for free, i have had experiences with companies which dont even do that.
He could have also gotten some technical persons to do it, would not cost much to have someone replace the rom.
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"it's dead easy,even the worst dummy can do it".
It is dead easy, if he used the proper tool to replace it with.
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JoannaK wrote:
Jurasic Camper: you can talk here too.. It's not illegal or something
:)
Why post on two forums like some people have the need to.
Like I said there I have spare plcc32 smt sockets so if he wants me to have a look at the damage, and solder one in if possible all he's got to do is get in touch. I agree Eyetech should never have sold boards write protected. That was STUPID of them. Mine was write protected as well.
However, it clearly states that the earlybird offer is not for everyone.
No offence but if your realy don't have the confidence in your own abilities to attempt something, THEN DON'T.
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Jurasic Camper: *IF* Eyetech and Hyperion had listened to those of us
who have more experience on hardware and OS making this and many other
could have been avoided. All these things were (using OTP rom on
prototype, weak testing etc) well known over year ago. And time has
shown results of this. (*)
For user responsibility.. Well, there is this nice saying (from
babylon 5).. "Fatih Manages" ... it's been ultimate definition of all
those AmigaOne users (who actually use it, instead of storing it at
the back of cubboard). Unfortunately Faith rarely fixes broken
hardware :-(
He belived Eyetech.. apparently one time too much. He sould have
listened himjself and be clever enough to have more experienced help
on this project.
(*) Another quote from B5..
"Arrogance and stupidity on same package, how efficient"
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@Sky
Oh man, messing up everyone's idle-time ;-)
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No it's not. I just had to do the same thing with my ASUS board. I had a BIOS flash go bad. I call ASUS tech support they told me to send in the BIOS, nothing about how to get it out.
I've done this before and was comfortable in my ability to remove the BIOS ROM and reinsert it once I got it back from being reflashed. If I had not felt comfortable removing the ROM or did not have the proper tools, I would have taken it to a local PC repair shop for removal and reinsertion.
oh, yeah, they told me not to send in the whole motherboard only send the BIOS.
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Staticman: that 'Adwanced' is most likely written somewere on their
web site. And knowing those finding (or other important info) is quite
impossible.
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I don't know of any company that asks it's customer to take on hardware replacement by themselves. That's totaly stupid!!!.
It would void warrantee and I bet it has now even though Eyetech sent you instructions, that's ridiculous. that is not customer service by a long shot. You don't go buy a car and get instructions on how to change the piston rings, nor should you have to when the damm thing is NEW.
What an F up!!. I would write a big nasty letter to the head of Eyetech and I hope you kept e-mails and copies of your conversations. there might be something you can do with regards to small claims etc..
disgusting service Eyetech. Weather you say advanced or not, you are responsible to replace this system when it doesn't work as advertized. I'm shocked.
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At least other novices will get help rather than mess there board up after reading this thread. :-)
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You don't go buy a car and get instructions on how to change the piston rings, nor should you have to when the damm thing is NEW.
Sure it is new, but was sold as early beta board!! That means that you are a betatester... That means that all kinds of nasty bugs follows the board...
I am sure, if he paid shipping+costs for replacing the chip, eyetech would happily replace it... Would be expensive for eyetech, if they should replace every damn board for free.
A betatester should have some technical knowledge.
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Thomas: that's the way Genesi handled their Betaterter boards. Those
were exchanged to new at Genesi's expense.
In the end. I'd like to see close up Fotos so I could evaluate
damage done.. it'll may (with good luck, depending on socket) be
fixable by someone with time, experience and tools. If there are no
rerious breaks on traces.. it'll be fixable.
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before you honk your own horn too much, JoannaK, you should perhaps hear both sides of the story. Alan just replied on ANN.lu and he gives a quite different story than Staticman does.
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@ thomas
Beta or not, unless stated that hardware warantee is to be done by the end user, whcih I seriously doubt it was, then they are responsible, period.
They should pay for shipping or return his money.
What has happened here is wrong, they should have givin him a 3rd party shop to go to at the very least. Not piad by him of course.
Man!, no one goes and changes their h/w on a new system by themselves! That's just obsurd. If you have the know how, and I do, that's fine, but this is a pretty clear cut case. That's why we have warrantees, What kind of compay is going to keep to a warrantee contract where home users start "trying" to repair thier own boards. That's BS
Mind you I can only go off his explination of things, i.e he may have asked to repair it himself. I havent' heard both sides here, but if it's like he is stating, it's all very wrong.
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SOMEWHAT OFF_TOPIC
@Redrumola
While I do believe it would(should??) be in Eyetech's best interest to help staticman out with at most a small fee, depending upon the repairability of the board, "the customer is always right" is the biggest load of crap ever introduced to the retail world. There is not a statement I loathe more because it is primarily only used when a customer is doing his darndest to rip off a company and not acknowledge his own fault in the situation.
More often than not, not only is the customer wrong, but the customer is trying to scam the company because they learned at McDonalds that if they scream loudly enough they'll get something for free.
Interestingly enough, a study was done a few years back (can't find a reference off hand) on the quality of retail customer service and salesmanship in the US as compared to a study done in the seventies.
The original findings were that customer service and salesmanship quality had dropped by HUGE amounts as compared to a couple decades ago. However, further research was done and it was eventually found, that Customer Service and Salesmanship quality in the US was actually greatly higher than it had been in the 70's, however the CUSTOMERS had become such downright awful, despicable people by and large, that it made it look like CS was really bad nearly everywhere you went because people were always unhappy because they didn't get a free yacht with their pop-tarts, and they felt they were "owed" somtheing.
Last time I heard someone yell "The customer is always right!" at me was when they'd thrown a glass bottle at their monitor, cracked the screen, and were pissed off that my company wouldn't give them a new one for free.
We weren't even the manufacturer of the monitor.
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Alan Redhouse has replied to this thread over on ann
HERE (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1065454293&category=unmoderated&start=1&46)
I think this can be safely put to bed.....
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Reflect: Yep.. Read it (assuming it's real and from AlanR)...
Apparently (according him) they are dealing with underaged kid or
something. Ah well.. Like I said earlier.. Likely cause is people
beign too eager to sell/purchase New Amigas.
At this point Question IS.. IF these boards were prototypes (as now
been told) then why they were sold to wide audience? (even kids?)
What's the point of causing end-users grief with partial product?
Shouldn't seller rather select their clients to get those who really
can work with them and help on debugging systems?
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@Wain
I cannot agree with you completely. While I agree there are times the customer is simply out for something for free, overall I believe in the saying "The customer is always right".
In retail, especially with such extremely high markups, there should be the expectation that X amount will be returned. That is just the reality behind retail.
I don't know all the details behind this incident, so I can only take this posters claims at face value. I know how I handle the returns.
Second to last feedback (http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=redrumloa).
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BTW to be fair Alan's response (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1065454293&category=unmoderated&start=1&47#message44) sounds pretty convincing.
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@Red
I can't comment on this case specifically, but my only experience of Eyetechs customer care has been extremely positive. They have ALWAYS gone the extra mile. I have heard similar from other customers.
For this reason, and because the IP of Alans post comes from the same ISP that Eyetech use, I'm inclined to think that that post is most probably the truth.
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@xeron
It's funny how the choice of words can seem to be convincing one way or another. I hope I didn't sound too harsh against Eyetech. I only meant to take the original poster at face value, Eyetech made an error of judgement. With the follow up it doesnt seen as clear cut.
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well it appears alan has made his statement and it remains to be seen who is right or who is telling the whole truth, I'll guess its the customer because in my opinon given amiga.inc et al you just cannot take these people at their word alone. (You have your opinon, I have mine)
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@redrumola
Most markups in the computer industry aren't high at all. Markup on $3500 laptops is usally around $100-200 at most. Markups on motherboards and printers and such are usually around 5-7%. 10% is considered really high in the industry. Companies make up for this in volume. This is one of the reasons why the AmigaOne boards are so expensive. The only thing with really high markups in the computer industry is cables.
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@Wain
Once again I will have to disagree with you. I really don't want to get into a deep arguement about PC component markup, but I will say this.
1) PC profit margins are more than retailers will let on.
2) Amiga retailers do not play by the same market dynamics that PC retailers do. Not even close.
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I have dealt with Eyetech in the past and I found their service quite good.
So having heard both sides of the story now, I would give them the benefit of the doubt in this case.
Also upon reflection it does seem quite impossible to rip out a rom socket with a paper clip.
The screwdriver explanation makes more sense and shows how inappropriately the customer dealt with a sensitive piece of electronics. (Or was it his dad, not too clear)
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I still can't beleive that Eyetech really expected the customer to replace the ROM at their own expense.
I am sure there is a law supporting this. I know that here in Australia, the company would be "coughing up"
Although they did make attempts to rectify the problem, I would want to know if eyetech would still honour the warrantee after having it's customer do a chip replacement. If it was my company, I certainly would not.
I still beleive that Eyetech should honour this sale and replace it with a known working PC.
Sending out chip replacements for your customer to install is not acceptable. No where in the contract or agreement would this policy be entered. I saw the statment about the "Early Bird" systems not being a switch on and go system, however, it is sold under a opinion that the PC will be a working system. If not it is false advertizing and unclear or misleading information is being passed onto the customer. It needs to be very clear in how it is presented to sale otherwise it breaks the law on consumer rights. IE the conumer has a right to have a working PC when the sale is for a working Personal Computer. If it fails to Compute, it can not be sold as such etc...
I am sure in a court of law, only one person would win in this case. If I was the person affect by this, I would start to look at my legal options.
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What!!
I can't rip my mb apart with a screw driver? What kind of junk are they selling? Boycott!!!
Posted after thinking 3 seconds, should I have waited longer?
Stew
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just read the statement, sounds like mom/dad and all involved were trying to give advice, but in haste you ripped the chip socket out, can't blame this on eyetech. infact the saying "the customer is always right" is just plain wrong. i used to work in lead acid batteries for five years nearly daily some one would drive in with a battery where they beat the cable end on with a hammer/plyers/rock etc., trying to get a good connection at the same time driving the post into the battery case ,ocourse thats the wrong way to connect a cable end, but out of haste they wanted it to make contact right then and destroyed the battery while they could have taken 10 minutes and done it right. you had the knowledge of right and wrong, but chose the wrong way... :-(
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Well I had a ####load of stability problems when I first got my A1. Far in excess of staticman's problems. Initially I thought that I had received a buggy board. My dealer said check out the PSU and so I replaced my PSU with my brother's from his PC still had the same problem because I didn't know how to properly jump start the A1. Called up my dealer that night told me that it is the PSU and that we had probably done something wrong. Next morning I went and got another PSU. A1 booted up fine but I was copping constant freezes, crashes and partition being damaged. Unfortunately I did not listen to my dealer who told me to go and get an Antec PSU. I ended up with a bogey Codgen. During the period my dealer even offered to send down another A1 board (he is over 3000kms away!) to test it. I refused like an idiot because the whole time he had been pointing (along as others such as _messiah_) me at the PSU.
This lasted for a period of two months. I then decided to put in my brother's PSU again. This time it worked properly, no crashes etc. I kept the PC PSU for one week and around a month ago I purchased the Antec PSU (with gold platted pins :-D) as suggested by my dealer. Guess what, he was right from day one ;-) . The customer is not always right.
Staticman's situation would be like me turning around now and either obliging my dealer or Eyetech to reimburse me for the two PSU purchases when in fact the problem was down to our (including brother) fat headedness and unwillingness to heed the PSU solution from the start.
The moral of the story: %99 of the time the customer is wrong ;-)
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And you don't send out a battery replacement to the customer and expect them to install it either.
What kind of warrentee do you give on your motherboards, I may take a screwdriver to your battery sockets eh?
What kind of support do you call that? Or perhaps I should go to a PC repair shop and PAY them to intall the socket you so crappily installed in the first place?
No I'm sorry, I totaly disagree. No company would settle for a home repair job, they would go bankrupt in warrantee claims.
Staticman,
Regardless, I still say, go seek legal advice. start with small claims. Surly you have one of those, or consumer affairs, whoever handels this type of process in your country.
If you kept correspondence between you and Eyetech regarding this debate, I would also copy the posted reply on the website, you will have a case against them, they have clearly told you to replace the part yourself, not your fault you messed it up. It has legal implications.
Your choice. I'm a big AMIGA fan but this type of thing really gets up my nose. Weather you like or dislike AMIGA is up to you, but this is a conumer rights thing don't skimp on your rights. This is clearly wrong and has been handled badly. Eyetech should do the right thing now, they messed up.
By the way, I will still be buying an A1 myself. just because a company muffs up now and then doesn't make them evil.
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But Unclewilli, my battery has a 5 year warranty. So, that means you'll replace it (and the cable) for free and make sure it works correctly, right? :-D
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If it was within the 12 month normal standard warrantee for most elctrical devices, I would say yes, I expect you to replace it. That's how it works. you see it could be a manufacturing fault or an assembly fault. That's not the customers fault, but you can't expect to send it out with some instructions and say
"hey, here you go, I've helped you now, go do it yourself and don't be so stupid, we gave you the tool."
If you bought a brand new 4000 in the 90s payed $4000 or whatever and the battery leaked, but it was brand new and they sent it out to you to fix......... Still not working? Hmm well you shouldn't have used the screwdriver, we gave you the molecular soldering sabre.
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SHADES wrote:
No I'm sorry, I totaly disagree. No company would settle for a home repair job, they would go bankrupt in warrantee claims.
But Eyetech offered to send out a technician ("300 mile round-trip") to fix the problem, or for the board to be sent into Eyetech. But was told that staticman is a computer whiz. Enough said.
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SHADES wrote:
If it was within the 12 month normal standard warrantee for most elctrical devices, I would say yes, I expect you to replace it. That's how it works. you see it could be a manufacturing fault or an assembly fault. That's not the customers fault, but you can't expect to send it out with some instructions and say
"hey, here you go, I've helped you now, go do it yourself and don't be so stupid, we gave you the tool."
If you bought a brand new 4000 in the 90s payed $4000 or whatever and the battery leaked, but it was brand new and they sent it out to you to fix......... Still not working? Hmm well you shouldn't have used the screwdriver, we gave you the molecular soldering sabre.
Did he not use a paperclip?
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@Bodie_CI5
Yes, I read that, but they still insisted on sending out the part and asked staticman to install it. Perhaps it wasn't convinent for him to wait for the tech to arrive, perhaps they couldn't give an exact time or otherwise. As I previously said, the very least they could do is organise a 3rd party store near him to do the repair on their behalf. It makes sense, they know the job is done right, it get's tested, no warrantee problems and the onus is now on the customer.
It's not a real brainer to work it out. I wouldn't settle for less and it's a far cheaper alternative to sending out a tech from 300+ K How could you guarantee when he was going to arrive. But you don't charge the customer ! that's not his fault
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He received his board in record time. I'm sure a few days more wouldn't have hurt. Others have waited for 10 months even, and have had some teething problems but had them worked out. Of course sending out a tech would have been a costly option, but they offered to go to even at that extreme. The parents insisted on staticman making the necassary changes did they not?
In any case, I believe that this can be sorted out by Eyetech and Staticman outside of the forums and in a much more cordial manner, than by us saying who is right and who is not.
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argo, no it would not be replaced under a warranty, but would under a guarantee, theres always the fine line line reading. one should never buy a lead acid battery based on the years of said warranty, just get the cold cranking amps that right for the motor size and electrical system, most auto batteries have an expected life of 28-30 months. "ideal conditions" is the term used in warranty life. higher the cranking the less reserve power. uh.. any way thats the general ideal... :-D
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@Bodie_CI5
I agree with the between staticman & eyetech statement, I just don't agree with the comments posted about an individuals rights. I used to be a repair tech. for PeeCees mind you, and this type of thig does occasionaly happen. I think he has a right to know the truth and to follow it up with the laws of his country. It's not fair we critisise him on the process or method used. He got a defective product, it didn't work the way it was advertized. eyetech admitted this fault and told of a potential fix. The fact that this fix didn't turn out the way they expected it would is not the customers fault. There could be any number of reasons as to why the customer couldn't accepct the tech coming from 300k away. Organising a store to repair the mistake the customer has to pay for is wrong, they should just except the bill or send a new board they know is working or refund moneies. That's all. Where else could you debate the topic but in a fourm for debate. :)
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@bodie_C15, i quess with out seeing pictures or or knowing for sure we should not blame ones method, i've used screwdrivers many times for that kind of chip remove. maybe the mother board was cold soildered or something.?
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SHADES wrote:
@Bodie_CI5
I agree with the between staticman & eyetech statement, I just don't agree with the comments posted about an individuals rights. I used to be a repair tech. for PeeCees mind you, and this type of thig does occasionaly happen. I think he has a right to know the truth and to follow it up with the laws of his country. It's not fair we critisise him on the process or method used. He got a defective product, it didn't work the way it was advertized. eyetech admitted this fault and told of a potential fix. The fact that this fix didn't turn out the way they expected it would is not the customers fault. There could be any number of reasons as to why the customer couldn't accepct the tech coming from 300k away. Organising a store to repair the mistake the customer has to pay for is wrong, they should just except the bill or send a new board they know is working or refund moneies. That's all. Where else could you debate the topic but in a fourm for debate. :)
Yeah if he wants to take this up legally, that's his prerogative, but whatever he has posted could be used against him as well though. He came onto Aworld's IRC last night (our time) and went apeshit, I was awakened from my drift into a nice little nap ;-) . I understand his getting peed off totally, but I think it would have beeter if he had not let the issue lay dormant for as long as it did. With our problem on the A1, we continuously wroked at it for a whole two months. My brother, was re-installing Linux an average 3-4 a day! We made our problem known and we received very helpful advice from _Messiah_, HMetal, our dealer, DaveP, Reflect, Olegil amongst others whom I can't remember at the moment. They were right the whole time long. My point is, that letting the issue lay dormant for as long as it did, would at least show apathy on his part. Hounding Eyetech about the problem from the beginning would have meant a speedier solution to the problem. He would have been a happy A1 owner now, and not have let this problem manifest itself across three forums. I can't comment on the third party solution, for Eyetech may have differing policies to what other companies may uphold, maybe even EU laws preclude such solutions. Who knows?
LOL about the forum debate part :-D , but since the problem is still ongoing, and may seek legal advice or settlements, it may turn against him.
In the words of the Divinyls: "It's a fine line between pleasure and pain" ;-) .
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unclewilli-amigalover wrote:
@bodie_C15, i quess with out seeing pictures or or knowing for sure we should not blame ones method, i've used screwdrivers many times for that kind of chip remove. maybe the mother board was cold soildered or something.?
You're right about being unsure, for I am as well. But that's the point I am trying to make as well ;-) .
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@Bodie_CI5
True :) you never know. There are always two sides.
Mouthing off never solves anything and if he has let the problem go on for too long, especialy if it past warrantee period, it's his own fault.
That's why warrantee periods are not everlasting.
>> I can't comment on the third party solution, for Eyetech may have differing policies to what other companies may uphold, maybe even EU laws preclude such solutions. Who knows?
I agree.
The legal stuff would be best handeled by the courts if he chooses to go that way.
>> LOL about the forum debate part , but since the problem is still ongoing, and may seek legal advice or settlements, it may turn against him.
:))) & V, true
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@ Shades
Oh but you forgot the Divinyls part :-D !
But I'm glad that you have seen what I was trying to convey (i.e. like comprehend it, not necesssarily agrre with it, if you know what I mean)
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@Bodie_CI5
>>But I'm glad that you have seen what I was trying to convey (i.e. like comprehend it, not necesssarily agrre with it, if you know what I mean)
Yes, I do. I'm not a mindless beastie ;)) and I am very pro AMIGA. This little mishap will not in any way prevent me from purchasing my own A1 either. Can't wait actually. :)
That dyvinals quote reminds me of the movie Hellraiser. Same sort of concept. I am not a big pain believer having had a nasty car accident :) lol I have found that it always comes down to how much in legalties, not nessasarily who's right. Not that that is important right now. As you have said, we don't know the full facts. A court will have both sides should he decide to persue the matter further.
>> He came onto Aworld's IRC last night (our time) and went apeshit, I was awakened from my drift into a nice little nap . I understand his getting peed off totally, but I think it would have beeter if he had not let the issue lay dormant for as long as it did.
You guys have an IRC? wow, I am out of touch. The only AMIGA channel I found was run by a Cyberwlf (guy) was his name and that closed :((
Got any room for an opininated Aussie? I promise to behave :) Hell, you could always bann me if I didn't :)) How cool an AO IRC , woot!
p.s. The mouthing off in any way isn't needed. That was rude of him.
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@Staticman
There's always the unfinished but bootable AROS CD (or the licensed Amiga Forever 5) and X86 based solution... One shouldn’t embark on PPC Linux adventure IF they are not competent with X86 Linux.
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Man haven't you still worked it out?! I'm Aussie as well! Same city too :-) .
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@Bodie_CI5
LOL Well, I'll be!
Any good AMIGA groups or swap meets etc?? I have now repaired my 1024S monitor to the extent of using hookup wire and it's at the end of it's life, I would love to get invloved in some small Ami community again. I just repaired my 4000 "Thanks to (redumloa / aka Jim) sad to see you go!!" recently and I want some goodies! lol.
No more Amigatech Australia to run to. Rob's gone with no forwading address. He was scoping me a grapchis card and Nic for my beast b4 it died. :))
God, it's nice to see another Aussie invloved with AMIGA. :))) nice to meet you :)
this is getting way off topic, should PM me :) sorry AO ;)
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Nice to see you too man!
Now my dealer is in Queensland, the shop name is AnythingAmiga:
www.anythingamiga.com
(I think that's right), his name is Doug, excellent guy. Give him a call he'll be able to direct you to where you need to go as far as User Groups go. He's told me before, but I have a bad memory! My borther is currently trying to get an OS4 demo for Melbourne.. so fingers crossed!
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Bodie_CI5 wrote:
Man haven't you still worked it out?! .
There’s an offer(invitation to treat), acceptance, agreement, and consideration.
Entity A claims that the product doesn’t work to begin with.
Entity B claims that the product was working when they handed the said product to the customer.
Did I miss anything so far?
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Hammer wrote:
Bodie_CI5 wrote:
Man haven't you still worked it out?! .
There’s an offer(invitation to treat), acceptance, agreement, and consideration.
Entity A claims that the product doesn’t work to begin with.
Entity B claims that the product was working when they handed the said product to the customer.
Did I miss anything so far?
Errr... yes you did. I was talking about me also being an Australian to Shades. There was nothing sinister in what I posted. You also cut out the rest of my sentence thus taking my words out of context.
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It's rediculis that a computer board seller tells a user to rip apart his motherboard and replace roms/etc... I mean sure in our genre it isnt to much of a stretch, but its still an unprofessional response to a user having bugs in the hardware in my opinon of course.
First of all Mips, you've turned this thread into a (yet another) Eyetech bashing venue for yourself. This thread was SUPPOSED to gather some useful tips and hints for this poor guy, but it's full of flames and trolls. Sometimes you amaze me (but I still like you all the same ;-) ).
But seriously, is it such a hassel to replace a socketed chip? We're talking about a hobbyist computer, a computer that you buy in parts and build yourself. The CPU is socketed. And how about the ram? Should you send the motherboard back to Eyetech to add more ram? It's no harder then replacing a socketed ROM chip, especially with an INCLUDED ROM-puller tool. The fact is, if the poor fellow simply noticed there was a ROM puller this would have been a two minute job and all would have been cool. Personally, I would prefer EyeTech just send me the ROM & tool instead of me sending them the motherboard and then wait for weeks for it to come back. Why this guy decided to start ripping up his motherboard is beyond me, I would never even consider starting such a project without researching it to the nth degree! I just hope for his sake it's still salvagable, but professional repairs may not be worth it; just buy another one.
Of course the only thing I don't quite get is why he couldn't just flash the rom, or would it not even boot to the BIOS? (I forgot all the original details by now, after reading all that useless trolling...)
- Mike
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Sounds like a typical linux bios experience to me. Calling this machine an Amiga without the AmigaOS is not really fair. What you have is a PowerPC machine with a generic Bios, it's not an Amiga till it boots Amiga..
This machine should have never been released without AmigaOS 4..
-Don
PS I know I will hear gripes from the last statement but come on folks it's not really an Amiga until the OS is in it, it doesn't have Amiga custom hardware in it. It is simply a linux box with an OS that isn't at all like the Amiga..
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Bodie_CI5 wrote:
Hammer wrote:
Bodie_CI5 wrote:
Man haven't you still worked it out?! .
There’s an offer(invitation to treat), acceptance, agreement, and consideration.
Entity A claims that the product doesn’t work to begin with.
Entity B claims that the product was working when they handed the said product to the customer.
Did I miss anything so far?
Errr... yes you did. I was talking about me also being an Australian to Shades. There was nothing sinister in what I posted. You also cut out the rest of my sentence thus taking my words out of context.
There’s nothing sinister with your post. My POV was with the main topic and may have missed some connectivity details (i.e. I view a.org with a flat view).
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@ Hammer
It's cool man :-) .
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Hi,
I thought I would drop into the discussion. About not good support from Eyetech I can say that it's not true. I read the post from Alan on Amigaworld.net which is also on ann. They even send someone to him to fix it. No charge. And some other things without any charge. Eyetech made the effort. Still, this all can be solved in a mature way, right?
Alan, if I got a problem would you send a technician to me too? I am a bit far away. If you pay for the ticket I make sure the technician has a great time here. Beaches, beer and so many things more. They just opened my favourite beergarden on 1 minute travel away.
Coder
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DonnyEMU wrote:
Sounds like a typical linux bios experience to me. Calling this machine an Amiga without the AmigaOS is not really fair. What you have is a PowerPC machine with a generic Bios, it's not an Amiga till it boots Amiga..
This machine should have never been released without AmigaOS 4..
-Don
PS I know I will hear gripes from the last statement but come on folks it's not really an Amiga until the OS is in it, it doesn't have Amiga custom hardware in it. It is simply a linux box with an OS that isn't at all like the Amiga..
I completly disagree. Those of us who took up the early bird offer are testing this hardware, admitidly some have given up and put them away until OS4, but we know the hardware we know what things to look out for, what ram to use, what graphics cards work. How stable they are overclocked. This is will help the people who are hanging on for OS4.
You will have a large core of people who can help.
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Is it just me or is Eyetech's response removed from ANN?
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Alans response on ann.lu:
@joe aka Mike Powell
Mike
I don't usually comment on ann, but I must make an exception in your case to put the record straight, as you seem to have been somewhat economical with the truth in your frustrated need to find someone to blame for your misfortunes.
First we managed to get your A1 system to you for Christmas, against considerable odds and with a fair bit of overtime required, after some significant pressure from your mother. We explained the nature of the 'earlybird' systems to her, but she was insistant that you were a computer whizz and knew what you were doing. The system was fully installed and working when it left us.
Between Christmas and New Year I noticed that you were complaining on amiga.org that it was not working, but again under a psuedonym making it hard to track you down, particularly as you didn't bother to email us directly. After finding out who you were I rang you and arranged for one of our engineers to visit you, a 300 mile round trip, to sort it out, without any charge. Somehow the linux swap file had got corrupted and our engineer reinitialised it, showed you how to use it and left it in a working state.
During the year you asked about an upgrade to a XEG4 and we quoted you the cost, but heard nothing more.
Three weeks ago your dad rang up and I spoke to him. He said you had lost interest and wished to sell the A1, but needed to show the prospective purchaser that it would boot into Linux properly first. He asked what was the cheapest way to achieve this, and we discussed sending it back to us. I explained to him, and you when you came to the phone, that although we were perfectly happy to do this there is always a risk that something will come dislodged in transit, or worse, damaged. I said that things had moved on since you purchased your Earlybird system and that we were now shipping the systems with Debian Linux and updated firmware. We discussed would have to be done at your end to update your sytem, and that if it was beyond your or his capabilities it is somthing that any competant local PC shop could do in a matter of minutes. We agreed that we would send you a new firmware chip and instructions on how to remove it, a new set of Debian disks and the installer CD, and the latest Quickstart guide (all without charge). You were to either change the ROM and install Debian yourselves, or pay a local PC shop to do it for you.
If there were still operational problems after that then you were to send the system back to us for sorting and we would jointly work out a less harsh method of getting the system back to you than via a courier.
The new ROM's, instructions, disks etc were sent off to you as promised.
We received a phone call from your dad today saying that you had asked him to pull the ROM, but that he had not really known what he should be doing. He told me that he had attempted to - and with the aid of a small screwdriver used as a lever - succeeded in pulling the ROM socket off the PCB, complete with attached surface mount tracks. I told him that this in my view would not be a practicable repair operation on a multilayered board such as the A1.
I am sorry that you have had this bad luck, and can understand your frustration, but I believe that we have given you good customer service over the period of ownership of your AmigaOne. I think that it is grossly unfair for you to imply otherwise, or to imply that your lack of satisfaction with the system you purchased is caused by anything other than your own lack of ability with Linux. As others on this list have pointed out we clearly state on our website that 'if you want a switch-on-and-go system the earlybird offer is not for you'.
Alan M Redhouse
looks like pretty damn good customer service from the side of eyetech, they could not have done more.
I really believe this is the customers fault.
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If you pay for the ticket I make sure the technician has a great time here. Beaches, beer and so many things more. They just opened my favourite beergarden on 1 minute travel away.
No, but I might take you up on that offer! I've never been to Bangkok before! :-D
- Mike
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@Glaucus
No, but I might take you up on that offer! I've never been to Bangkok before!
No prob. :-)
Coder
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JoannaK wrote:
Jurasic Camper: *IF* Eyetech and Hyperion had listened to those of us
who have more experience on hardware and OS making this and many other
could have been avoided.
*IF* you'd offered your services in a polite manner rather than trolling the public A1 and AOS4 lists, Eyetech and Hyperion may have been more receptive to you suggestions. :-o
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Of course Alan's response makes it sound like he gives A+ customer service, do you think he posted a response to make himself look bad?
Now whether he does give good customer service, our lousy, is still very much a matter of legitimate debate.
Fact is, I've witnessed these blow-ups, and Alan's vociferous counter responses, several times over the years.
The fact that Alan always has a vociferous response, that's not surprising, that is his personality, the fact that complaints keep coming, that part I find real concerning.
But listen, there is something not quite TRUE going on here.
Consider the interview with MR HARDWARE computers:
MR HARDWARE COMPUTERS, SELLER OF EYETECH PRODUCTS:
I think there will be a big shortage of AmigaOne's when OS4.0 is released at the end of October. If you think you want a system you can pre-order the motherboards now and decide on other parts later.
-----------------------------
This is a wonderful example, of what many in the community do, they repeated say OS 4 is around the corner...the implications are obvious, they want to sell AmigaONE hardware to the OS 4 crowd.
When OS 4 adverts first hit amiga.org, the Amiga campers were all over that, its safe to buy your AmigaONE now, cause OS 4 is just about to be released.
But time and time again, year after year, it isn't released....and yet they continue to market, and sell these AmigaONE's.
It just strikes me as INCREDIBLE and beyond belief, now the very strong language used in saying that everyone knows these are LINUX only systems that are for experts.
I've said that many times and been criticized relentlessly for being all DOOM and GLOOM and TROLLING.
Lets face facts...now I suppose I'm trolling for pointing out the truth of this two-faced argument.
I don't think I'm inclined to stop trolling, till I feel like people aren't being LIED to and manipulated out of their money.
Why can't we have THAT FIRST, then we can talk about a more peace loving community.
--Robert aka MarkTime
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Please folks I used to work for an Amiga dealer and have swapped out chips etc..
You DON'T use a paperclip as a CHIP PULLER..
You can buy a chip puller at any radio or electronics supply shop for under $5..
This is such a ridiculous post. If someone really told them to do this, they really shouldn't be in business.
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JurassicCamper wrote:
I completly disagree. Those of us who took up the early bird offer are testing this hardware, ...
No. You bought a piece of hardware, using the licensed "AmigaOne" trademark, from a licensed distributor.
That these Teron motherboards are sold under the "AmigaOne" trademark means, among other things, that:
- It has passed AInc's extra strict quality assurance tests.
- It has passed AInc's AmigaOS4 compatibility tests.
- The support level as well production and distribution capabilities meet the extra high standards set by AInc.
Right?
You all do remember that the "AmigaOne" name is a CERTIFICATION, meant to BENEFIT and PROTECT us as consumers, right? It's NOT a market restriction imposed on us and third party hardware, just to fund irrelevant former "hardware partners" and get some quick rent money from short-sighted trademark licensing for a thousand or two mobos on an artificially limited market... Right? :P
Heh.
(BTW, "Earlybird" suffix or not doesn't matter. That's just a recent Eyetech campaign offer to buy Terons preceding the AmigaOS4 release. It never was meant to tell the customer that the hardware was not up to snuff. I hope.)
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@seehund! :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P
Oh how I laughed! I wondered how long it would take you to comment, as we all know how much you like Eyetech and the A1's.
I imagine we all could have guessed that you would refer to them as Teron's as well.
Face facts, no one takes you seriously anymore as you are just a caricature of your former self!
Before anyone mentions that this post is a personal attack, my point is that Seehunds post has nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand.
Rassilon
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@ staticman
Bummer dude, I feel for you but there is no need to blame it all on Eyetech, from what I can gather it seems they have ben fair an honest.
How about we all go down to coders and get totally wasted in bangkock :pint: :-D :-D
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@sTaTicMaN
That wouldn't happen if you had an A2000 HD Professional with Military Chips like Doomy ;-P
-Well, seriously that's more or less easy to repair but... don't do it yourself please...
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Hi Rassilon!
Thanks for your insightful contribution to the discussion.
Oh my, is my face red now, having posted about quality and support in a thread about... quality and support. As if that wasn't enough, I seem to have posted my reply to another obviously off-topic post about quality and support.
I'm so devastated that I can't even seem to remember what the point of your post was, and what it had to do with the topic and my post which you replied to.
Maybe that "former self" of mine would have been able to keep up with you. Anyway, nice of you to keep tabs of my former and current self, and even telling everyone what I really think. I had almost forgotten that everyone's supposed to have sympathies or antipathies for certain hardware and hardware shops and base their discussion on such feelings.
Thanks for watching out for amiga.org and keeping things on topic, Rassilon!
:P
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staticman: i feel with you on this one , i have a friend who seems to be as unlucky as you ;(
i can only hope that you and alanR figures out what to do with it.
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Seehund wrote:
JurassicCamper wrote:
I completly disagree. Those of us who took up the early bird offer are testing this hardware, ...
No. You bought a piece of hardware, using the licensed "AmigaOne" trademark, from a licensed distributor.
That these Teron motherboards are sold under the "AmigaOne" trademark means, among other things, that:
Yeah Yeah Yeah how many time have i heard this.... Turn the record over mate its getting boring.
Nothing you say or the BGF's say are going to make me change my mind about my purchase. It works fine, I'm happy with it and I'm looking forward to OS4.
But if genesi bought a licence to call the pegasos2 an amiga or won got the trademark by default that would be ok would it?
Eyetech have got as much right to call it an Amiga as C= did. They just bought someones work after all, even the OS was metacombo.
Would you still be spurting off if the Escena board had worked ?
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Face facts, no one takes you seriously anymore as you are just a caricature of your former self
IMHO the more time that passes, the more I realise just how right Seehund has been all along :-x
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JurassicCamper wrote:
Yeah Yeah Yeah how many time have i heard this.... Turn the record over mate its getting boring.
Nothing you say or the BGF's say are going to make me change my mind about my purchase. It works fine, I'm happy with it and I'm looking forward to OS4.
I have said nothing about your purchase, the Teron, or Blind Whatever Followers. Nobody's trying to change your mind. There's no conspiracy. You're happy with your motherboard, that's great isn't it? Who said that you shouldn't be?
You said that Eyetech's customers are actually testing the hardware. That's what I replied to.
I said that this can't be, as the Terons are already sold as "AmigaOnes", which supposedly should work as a certification that it's a tested and finished product and paying customers are not to be considered as testers or developers. The Terons are no longer "beta" or prototypes. There shouldn't be any need for testing when the product is already out on the market, and I don't think there is.
I think you read something into my reply which just isn't there. Nobody is attacking you or your hardware purchase.
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@ Seehund
The point of your post was to re-iterate... AGAIN! your view that AmigaOne's should be called Teron's. Which as you can see has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
My aim of my post was to point out the childish and boring reality of yours.
Hope that clears up any misunderstanding, and refreshes your devastated memory!
Rassilon
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@Rassilon
troll
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@lorddef
If you read Seehunds original post you would understand that his was a troll pure and simple, for the reasons I stated in my post.
Say what you like about my replies, but Seehunds post added nothing to the thread, was not really anything to do with the thread, and was only posted to enrage other readers.
which you can see it has!
Rassilon
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@Rassilon
Seehund is a one trick pony for sure (take it in stride seehund), but consider something. He has taken a stand on something he feels strongly about, and there are some people who are starting to understand what he has been screaming about all along.
I don't think Seehund is trolling here and I really don't think he is OT. Just my opinion. I used to be rubbed wrong by him for beating the same old drum, but over time it started to make more sense. According to Amiga Inc the A1s are supposed to have passed their strict in house QA.
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There is a distinct difference between seshunds comments on the topic (which I don’t agree with by the way) and the blatant attack that you pursued.
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@redrumloa
Don't get me wrong I perfectly agree that everyone is entitled to there own opinion, and to express it.
However there is a point when the opinion should not be made, ie the fiftieth time!
The main angle of his post is to reiterate his view of the A1/Teron name situation, which in reality bares little or no relation to the topic at hand.
With regard to QA - yes they have passed the strict procedures, but the updates that are referred to in this thread are a bios update and a new vversion of the supplied Linux. Nothing to do with QA of the mobo's et al., and therfore nothing to do with the topic of Seehunds post
Rassilon
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@lorddef
If you read my above post you see that I have tried to explain myself a bit clearer.
The reason for my post was that I was/am agravated by the endless repeats of Seehunds views, which crop up where they have no relation to the topic. Enough already, I am aware of his view!
Rassilon
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redrumloa wrote:
@Rassilon
[snip]
and there are some people who are starting to understand what he has been screaming about all along.
What? We SHOULD call them terons? :-)
[snip]
According to Amiga Inc the A1s are supposed to have passed their strict in house QA.
I must say, I do think he's being rather anal about it. If you get a copy Windows 2005 beta do you bitch and whine if it has bugs in it? "But it's got Microsoft Windows written on it - that means it passed all their testing & certification...". Yeah but, maybe a 'beta' and an 'earlybird' might make a difference there? No? Well, fair enough then, but don't expect any A1 owners or BAFs to give a crap.
Aren't the early Pegasos (sorry to go OT here...) boards (sans-'April') a bit buggy? Yet they were (are?) still sold - with the name Pegasos on. But does it matter? Eyetech and Genesii both made it clear what you were getting. I don't see why Seehund makes such a fuss.
Just my tuppence worth.
Martyn.
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Rassilon wrote:
Don't get me wrong I perfectly agree that everyone is entitled to there own opinion, and to express it.
However there is a point when the opinion should not be made, ie the fiftieth time!
When someone sees something he doesn't agree with for the X:th time, he shouldn't be allowed to post a reply with a countering view, or be dismissed as a "troll" for doing so, just because he's said it X times?
Well, remember that such a rule would be applicable both ways... ;)
The point of your post was to re-iterate... AGAIN! your view that AmigaOne's should be called Teron's.
---
The main angle of his post is to reiterate his view of the A1/Teron name situation, ...
No.
If you want to reply to something, then please stop guessing what's written, just read it.
To spell it out again:
It's been suggested that "earlybird" customers should expect Eyetech to deliver the Terons with hardware problems, and that customers should know how to fix them.
JurassicCamper said that Eyetech's customers are testing the hardware.
This is what I replied to, and I stated that this is not true, or rather ought not be true.
Any hardware that is sold under the licensed "AmigaOne" trademark should be in perfect working order. Customers should be considered to be simply customers, not testers working for the distributor, with a certain minimum required competence in hardware troubleshooting or repairs.
The "Earlybird" offer just says that AmigaOS is not yet available for the Terons, so Eyetech recommends customers to have basic skills in the OS that it's delivered with: Linux. The hardware has supposedly passed that "AmigaOne certification".
It's not my fault that the "AmigaOne certification" has repeatedly proven to be absolutely worthless for consumer protection or for deducing anything about hardware qualities. I'll keep pointing that out when I see it, thankyouverymuch. That's proven facts, and as for my personal opinion I think I have tried to make that clear before... ;)
I see that you apparently think that calling a Teron "Teron" is "trolling", and that you're even "enraged" by that? In that case I think you have an worryingly unhealthy attachment to something as insignificant as a licensed trademark.
With regard to QA - yes they have passed the strict procedures, but the updates that are referred to in this thread are a bios update and a new vversion of the supplied Linux. Nothing to do with QA of the mobo's et al., and therfore nothing to do with the topic of Seehunds post
First of all, my post was not solely and specifically aimed at the situation in this thread (I think Eyetech seems to have bent over backwards to help the guy).
The situation arose from a hardware fault that no "certified" boards should be shipped with: the firmware *PROM was locked, the essential firmware update could not be applied by normal flashing procedures. The hardware needed upgrading with a new physical *PROM chip. That has everything to do with QA.
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@Seehund
Ok, let me try and put this into my persepctive, and answer each of you point in turn.
When someone sees something he doesn't agree with for the X:th time, he shouldn't be allowed to post a reply with a countering view, or be dismissed as a "troll" for doing so, just because he's said it X times?
As I said I am all for free speech and having one's own opinion, however the reference in your post was not put to provide factual information applicable to the topic, it was put there to get a laugh, and as such it was a troll.
The fact that you always post in A1 thread's about 'Teron's' always gets up people's noses. I'm pretty sure that someone always replies as such. So it does enrage people. You seem to get much enjoyment from stating a fact that really has no relevence to anything and generally winds people up. That also pisses me off.
With regard to the locked PROM, well I wouldn't necessarily see checking the locked status of a PROM as a normal QA procedure. However as it did happen to be locked, Eyetech offered to do the change over for Staticman. The boards are certified, I think you would be pretty hard tasked to find a bios that is as well.
So your dig at the QA procedures of Eyetech is only there to cause a flame.
So the whole point of your original post was to piss people off -
Point 1: Teron's
POint 2: QA procedures
Therefore I brand the post a troll.
Rassillon
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@Rassilon
Apparently you have already made up your mind about what my point is and what I'm really saying. I suppose asking you to read the actual text again won't help.
No, whether people would like to refer to a Teron as "Teron" or "AmigaOne" was not my point.
No, I have made no dig at Eyetech's QA procedures, and whatever the heck individual hardware distributors do or don't do was not my point.
To spell it out again:
...
Oh, heck. Why bother. Feel free to be enraged and pissed off.
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@Seehund
I'm willing to give it another go, so I have re-read you comment - I have broken it down thusly:
JurassicCamper wrote:
I completly disagree. Those of us who took up the early bird offer are testing this hardware, ...
No. You bought a piece of hardware, using the licensed "AmigaOne" trademark, from a licensed distributor.
That these Teron motherboards are sold under the "AmigaOne" trademark means, among other things, that:
- It has passed AInc's extra strict quality assurance tests.
- It has passed AInc's AmigaOS4 compatibility tests.
- The support level as well production and distribution capabilities meet the extra high standards set by AInc.
Right?
You sarcastically take JurassicCampers comment on face value and continue to put in your little dig about Teron's.
Perhaps it would have been clearer if JC had said that we are testing the firmware, which is actually closer to the truth.
You all do remember that the "AmigaOne" name is a CERTIFICATION, meant to BENEFIT and PROTECT us as consumers, right? It's NOT a market restriction imposed on us and third party hardware, just to fund irrelevant former "hardware partners" and get some quick rent money from short-sighted trademark licensing for a thousand or two mobos on an artificially limited market... Right? :P
This is just a cheap shot at Eyetech and Amiga Inc, not really fussed about this bit :o/
(BTW, "Earlybird" suffix or not doesn't matter. That's just a recent Eyetech campaign offer to buy Terons preceding the AmigaOS4 release. It never was meant to tell the customer that the hardware was not up to snuff. I hope.)
Another sarcastic stab with the old 'Teron' joke.
Now if I have misunderstood a section please enlighten me :-)
Rassilon
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@Seehund & red:
Sorry guys, I don't get what your (seehund) point was.
I've got to go along with rassilon on this one - it looks to me like you just wanted to stir it up.
Or are you seriously saying that you believe that because they were tested by Eyetech, then no further testing should take place?
When it comes down to it, Eyetech did their best to help the guy, simple as that.
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Wilse wrote:
Or are you seriously saying that you believe that because they were tested by Eyetech, then no further testing should take place?
No.
When it comes down to it, Eyetech did their best to help the guy, simple as that.
Yes.
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Wilse wrote:
@Seehund & red:
Sorry guys, I don't get what your (seehund) point was.
I've got to go along with rassilon on this one - it looks to me like you just wanted to stir it up.
I'm not trying to stir anything up. I simply stated that I am starting to understand why Seehund has been screaming about the licensing scheme for all this time, it is silly.
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I simply stated that I am starting to understand why Seehund has been screaming about the licensing scheme for all this time, it is silly.
Well, it's probably the only income stream Amiga Inc will have for the forseeable.
OTOH, if they go under.....
Anyway, we're veering OT. ;-)
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>When I explain I'm novice and cannot do the job, and they dont
>do it then its their fault not mine because I had already
>explained that I was incapable of doing the job.
Then you shouldn't have tried.
Besides, are you also incapable of finding someone who IS capable of doing the job?? You don't have to be an Amiga nut to mess with Linux, and surely there are Lubix users somewhere in your general vicinity. And surely some electronics guy or PC repair guy is capable of changing a ROM chip, they don't have to be Amiga people to know how to do that either.
Sory dude, but you've had almost a year to return this thing as defective. You waited far too long, and did something to it that you should not have even considered trying being such a novice and all. I just find it difficult to feel sorry for you.
I broke my Prometheus PCI adaptor last weekend. You don't see me complaining that Matay should have included more static electrcity protection, or protection for whatever else I may have done to the thing, carrying on in front of everyone do you? I broke it. My fault. Not theirs. I'm buying a new one.
In your case, you broke it. YOUR FAULT. Not theirs.
I've never had bad support from Eyetech, and find Alan's response at ann.lu to be quite believable, it sounds like they did more for you than I'd expect them to help me with. To see you blaming them for something you should have returned long ago, and blame them for causing you to break it in the manner than you did, just looks silly.
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>In retail, especially with such extremely high markups, there
>should be the expectation that X amount will be returned. That
>is just the reality behind retail.
Of course, this is true. So true, than in USA the income tax forms for companies have a line to say how much money you "lost" due to returns, and this number subtracts off your total income, you don't pay company income tax on sales income items returned to you.
But, at the same time, there should not be an expectation of x number units per year will have some kid that doesn't know anything about computers (or his equally in-experienced dad) ripping sockets off computer boards with screwdrivers wanting full refunds for their failure to have an experienced person do it for them.
Like my broken Prometheus card, I cannot expect Matay to come visit me in USA every time I rearrange my pile of computers to ensure that I haven't done anything wrong or forgot to ground myself to remove static electricity, or that my 90 degree zorro adaptor (unknown to Matay and of course unsuported by them) is made properly and won't cause a short, or that my installation with shich doesn't cause Promy to short against case metalwork or anything like that. Matay has no reason to expect me to do such possibly destructive things. All they should expect of me is me to pay for repair of my mistake, whatever it was, or buy a new one, which I am already ordering.
Now, Eyetech did send him the parts and instructions, and mention that most people are able to figure it out. Problem with "foolproof" documentation and easy work, whoever made the word "foolproof" vastly underestimated the fools. Thus guy and/or his dad apparently was genuinley not up to the task. Eyetech should have offered for him ship the thing back to them and have them do the ROM swap. I'm not saying Eyetech should have paid shipping, but also not saying they should not have paid, not my problem, most of my own comparable situations customer ALWAYS pays return to company, company ALWAYS pays return to customer, not sure if it works the same in UK or Europe or anyone else, and this in USA is still more of a company policy being very similar between companies, not any legal requirement.
But in the end, it was the customer's decision what to do. Do I ship it to Eyetech for work done? Do I call local experienced people for help? The customer knew how muchthe board cost. The customer knew he didn't know how to do this chip swap. The customer knew he was afraid of breaking something. The customer knew what the risk was here. The customer accepted the risk, end of story. Eyetech should not have to expect this problem, they should expect that people unable to do this will ship it in to have it done, or find someone else experienced to do the work. This someone else may or may not guarantee his work, if not then the customer must again choose to accept the risk or not, this isn't Eyetech's fault. The busted board would ONLY be Eyetechs fault at this point of Eyetech themselves had broke it.
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>Also upon reflection it does seem quite impossible to rip out a rom socket with a paper clip.
Depends on the type of socket. If it's PLCC style, sure it can be done. I once pulled a PLCC of some sort with a paperclip. Bent it onto a V shape, and made short curls on the tips to grip under the chip with. Slid the two ends down the PLCC corner slots, squeezed the ends together and pulled up, chip popped out. If it was a DIP style, then no a paperclip wouldn't be ideal. Not sure what style AmigaOne has as I don't have mine yet, but you'd still have to be more than novice to build your own PLCC tool from a paperclip, but then you shouldn't be doing the work yourself anyway.
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OK, my previous posts on the toppic show I think the customer should have had enough common sense to leave the thing alone himself and get someone with experience to help. He has of course now been delivered this knowledge by a big virtual Clue-By-4.
Now, if Eyetech won't repair it (even if you offer to pay) , I offer to try. I make no guarantee to success as I don't know for sure if it can be done, perhaps a pic by email could help (good clear closeup of the damage froma couple angles). My offer - I'll fix the thing, you pay to ship it to me in USA, I pay shipping to return it to you. I'll pay for any parts required that are reasonably easy to deal with, such as sockets, solder, etc. If it's a broken northbridge chip, or other such large thing neesing replaced, I'm not equipped to do that work, I'm assuming it's just the ROM socket and lifted wires neding some rework, and this is all I'll pay for.
OK, who am I? Why should you trust me? Good questions. I've upgraded a couple Cyberstorm MK2 050 CPU cards to use 060 chips. A couple people have sent me their boards for this work, and been happy with the results, people from outside USA, a project I figured out how to do by myself as Phase 5 wouldn't even respond to my requests to pay them for the job on my wn board. I have a degree in computer engineering from Rochester Institute of Technology in New York state USA. I work at Forefront Technologies on the Radeon driver project. Bill Toner's the name, you decide if you'd consider trusting me or not. Again there is risk involved, I may not be able to fix it, there's some statistical possibility that it might somehow get worse, but I'm willing to try. Regardless of if I fix it or not, it will be returned to you at my cost for return shipping/insurance. Now, I don't have any OS disks, and don't know much about instaling Linux myself, I'm not personally involved in Forefront's AmigaOne sales. I only will try to get the thing to try and boot, show any meaningful signs of life, etc. If you want I'll try to get Linux doing somethng too, but don't make any guarantees whatsoever about that, just the board/socket repair attempt.
And it of course may take a while to get to as I'm busy with other things, but will get to it as soon as I can if you would try this offer.
Again, while breaking something that expensive must suck, I can't find Eyetech at fault for the damage. But for kicks (I like to solder) I'll offer this for my own educational experience in trying to repair such a hardware problem.
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I'm stepping in a little late, but in my opinion the user is in the wrong here regardless of which story is more accurate.
If Eyetech really did offer to do the rom swap themselves, a simple phone call to them could have resolved the misunderstanding. It's bad enough that the user tried to do the rom swap when they knew they didn't feel up to the job, but going ahead with it when you have unclear instructions too?
Honestly, there were plenty of options available to you: Friends (more technically savvy), user groups, the support mailing list, computer shops or even Eyetech themselves.
I think this is something to be chalked up as one of those bad learning experiences and move on. It certainly is not the fault of Eyetech that someone did something against their own judgement.
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Looking at the offers to repair this board, pretty much free of
charge, I have to say I'm once again impressed by the kindness of the
people in this community.
I hope you take up one of these offers.
@everyone who offered to help the guy - hat's off to you! :pint:
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Can we clear some things up here? I've got an A1G3SE direct from Eyetech, and from the dates given, I'd guess it's from the same batch that the OP got his from. There are no particular hardware problems, and I find it unlikely that his board was actually physically defective either. Software problems, yes, but that was to be expected, and this was explicitly stated.
Some people who are trying to confuse the issue should be reminded that, at the time, you could *only* get these things from Eyetech. There was no way to avoid knowing about the potential problems. None, no excuses. You had to work a bit to order one at all--it's not like you could walk into just any computer store and have them shoved in your face. That's still the case, and the software problems seem to be gone now.
Since my Amiga motherboard died a few weeks ago, I've had to use the AmigaOne as my main machine. (I do have an A1200, but it won't work with my accelerator so it's not much use to me at this point for anything other than old games. Which is fine, but it doesn't get any work done!) The worst I can say is that Konquerer has bombed out a few times. Since it's *only* Konquerer, and nothing else, that rather rules out hardware issues, wouldn't you say?
As has been pointed out, having a clue was in fact required for the early buyers, and to a lesser extent is still required now. You *can* and will mess things up by screwing around with stuff you don't understand. This does not mean that the hardware is broken or defective. What's kind of pathetic is that physically removing the ROM chip probably wasn't even necessary. I'm 99% sure that it could have been flashed, like I did mine. This is a fairly easy procedure, but again, it requires at least a small clue. I suppose in this case, they couldn't or didn't want to do it for whatever reason.
For the people saying, "the customer is always right"...well, yes, that's why this guy got the board in the first place, isn't it? Apparently against Eyetech's better judgement. What would you have them do, refuse to sell to certain people they think might be too stupid? Do you have any *IDEA* the screams of outrage that would provoke? And rightly so!
I suppose Eyetech probably isn't the very best company in the entire world, but it's *miles* above the situation we had with Phase 5. (Who delivered to me a non-functional CyberstormPPC, took months and months to repair it, and then had the nerve to charge me for repairs to a board that was defective when I got it.) Anyone who has a problem with Eyetech in this situation *obviously* only has an axe to grind and no logical reason for it.
--Eric