Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Tigger on June 16, 2003, 11:09:57 PM
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Murphy Auction Page on Amiga Inc Auction (http://www.murphyauctions.net/amiga.html)
The Auction house has the full list of whats going to be auctioned off now posted at the above URL. Lots more stuff then I think most envisioned.
[color=990000]Update! 6/16/03 : [/color] Advanced Internet bidding (http://www.murphyauctions.net/asp/amigacat.asp) and the online PDF catalog (http://www.murphyauctions.net/images/pdf/AmigaCat.pdf) are now online.
Also a clarification from the Auction site : "Amiga Inc is not going out of business. This is not an auction of Amiga as a corporate entity. This sale is being conducted for property management of office assets only."
[color=990000]Update! 6/13/03 : [/color] Most of the PDA's and one-off prototype units have been returned to the actual vendors (Nokia, etcetera). There is also a note on the site verifying that this auction is being done by the property management to pay off debts owed by Amiga Inc.
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So thats what happenned to the Nokia Mediaterminal, impounded by Amiga Incs landlord.
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This is news?
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Sure. If you live nearby, you can score yourself a Nokia Media Terminal. News.
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JUNK! Not even prototypes of their "digital living enviorment" hardware, OS5 Alphas or even Fleecy's Kommunity Koffee? ;-)
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A refrigerator...?
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Well...a foosball table which Bill Mc played on must have at least some novelty value? :-)
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Sure. If you live nearby, you can score yourself a Nokia Media Terminal. News.
Of course, what was I thinking
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That would make a nice beowolf cluster }:->
Damien
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Just some old furniture(tm)
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Well.. IIRC Nokia scrapped the plans they had for the mediaterminal, so this prototype may be worth something to some collectors of nokia junk in about 15 years or so... :-)
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You know, for "used junk" I'm seeing some pretty penny items in there. All in all, we're talking over $15k worth of material.
This also shows the incredible waste of AInc. They bought the priciest pieces of equiptment possible. They were a start-up, what the heck are they doing with NORTEL and Cisco stuff? That's the stuff you see either in high-end setups for big offices where the workload demands it or in internet-oriented mission-critical situations. Unless AInc was secretly plotting to create their own ISP, these pieces were overpriced overkill!
No wonder they went out of business, they spent it on machines and equiptment that were unnecessary, on more office space than needed, bought fancy toys and irrelevent pieces of material, and generally burned through their cash faster than I can imagine.
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Well, it's kinda good news there's no Amiga stuff for sale. This might very well just be a bunch of junk they no longer need because they're going to start using Amiga stuff in their Amiga business.
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@weirdami
I know for a certain fact you own more Amiga hardware than all of Amiga incs employees combined;-)
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They're auctioning HOW many 21" monitors?!
"We have tangiable evidence that this [Bankruptcy of Amiga] will not happen any time soon"...
Do people feel the sudden urge to laugh or cry? ;-)
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i find this all amazing..... how can we expect this company to actually produce something? A company who dosent have enough funding to pay the rent! They now work from their own homes.. lol.. :-(
I bet their employes is pretty pissed off..... sigh
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"We have tangiable evidence that this [Bankruptcy of Amiga] will not happen any time soon"
Interesting quote, where it from?
The Iraqi Information minister or BB's PR Department?
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This might very well just be a bunch of junk they no longer need
weirdami,
Yeah, AmigaOS4 is almost here so expect the FUD to rise exponentially. :)
I'm sure someone will turn up "official" bankruptcy papers soon.
Zoltan
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>IMac PC.
Hello
Strange, there is no Single classic Amiga on the list. How do they plan to test the (vaporware)connectivity card from Escena?
I heard it is possible to recover contents of hard disks (even deleted and written over) using special tools (clean room). Perhaps Genesi / BBRV will buy their computers? :-)
Is it possible to send representative, similar to art auction at Sothbey or Christie? :-)
I am planning to buy the special Apple's IMac (classified as a PC) from Amiga Inc, complete with certificates. Do they provide the certificates? :-)
I hope they will auction the gold toilet tooth brush, similar to Brunei's auction! :-)
>NORTEL, CISCO
Perhaps they plan to provide giant online service, similar to Apple Inc? There are several giant used routers (ie CISCO 12000) from failed ISPs and Telecommunication companies.
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Nokia scrapped the plans they had for the mediaterminal, so this prototype may be worth something
NyQuil,
Ok, so it's not a Commodore 265 or something (I'd imagine there's quite a few MTs still around other software companies), but think of the SlashDoters- they'd go this in a second.
Zoltan
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AAAARGH! :-?
I must have missed something major, but when did AInc go bankcrupt, or put into receivership or whatever? What does this mean for OS4? Have AInce pulled out making it, it's all on Hyperion? Does this relate to the forum thread about losing the Amiga name, and who now owns it?
I really missed here! :-?
Can someone please post a link to the new(s) items relating to this, i'm lost! :-(
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"We have tangiable evidence that this [Bankruptcy of Amiga] will not happen any time soon"
Interesting quote, where it from?
The Iraqi Information minister or BB's PR Department?
Bzzzztm wrong, thanks for playing:-o Actually it was Ben Hermans on ANN.
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I must have missed something major, but when did AInc go bankcrupt, or put into receivership or whatever?
George,
You didn't miss anything. It's just another wacky day on Amiga.org. No one's gone bankrupt...maybe the odd (mental) breakdown..anyways.
The auction in question is of some of Amiga Inc. old stuff. Here's a link to Fleecy's answer about that (#3):
Amigaworld/ Auction (http://amigaworld.net/modules/fleecymoss/index.php?cat_id=12)
One thing that struck me about that list is how much GateWay equipment was there (some old P2/P3s mostly). Maybe Gateway threw in some spare equipment when they sold Amiga to Bill and co?
Zoltan
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redrumloa,
thanks for playing. Actually it was Ben Hermans on ANN.
It sure was. :)
We will welcome them with bullets and shoes. (http://www.topweddinglinks.com/We_Love_the_Iraqi_Information_Minister_15.html)
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Actually it was Ben Hermans on ANN.
Either that, or his stunt double. :-)
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From Fleecy's response: "This amounts to some three year old wall dividers, desks, chairs, lamps, one or two old printers, some filing cabinets etc."
Not to mention twenty 21" monitors, 30+ desktop computers, etc.
That's a lot of stuff to leave behind! I guess they think becuase they haven't been in the office for a while, they can skip rent?
Honesty, I don't know why I follow this crap. I must admit, it's pretty damn funny, though.
Executive update, anyone? Or is this indeed a private party? ;-)
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What, not a single Amiga computer? Geez....
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Aaah!
Thankyou zee4. A few posts earlier (downix's and others) kinda gave me the impression that AInc had gone under. Guess me just got confused, sorry :-(
Anyway, than you again for the information, and I feel a little happier about the survival of my favourite computer now ^_^
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Oh? The PocketPC is your favorite computer? ; þ
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@George
While AInc's not bankrupt, they did get kicked out of their offices and all of their business equiptment is now being auctioned off by their old landlords for back-rent. Oh, and they stopped paying their employees, cut off the employees insurance plan, and are in generally poor shape.
However, as AInc had nothing to do with the OS, this doesn't do much other than entertain the more morbid among us.
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Poster: George Date: 2003/6/5 18:12:50
Aaah!
Thankyou zee4. A few posts earlier (downix's and others) kinda gave me the impression that AInc had gone under. Guess me just got confused, sorry
Anyway, than you again for the information, and I feel a little happier about the survival of my favourite computer now ^_^
Not quiet the best of pictures actually. With them being locked out of their office because of back rent due, being sued, successfully, by atleast one of their ex-employees for back wages and insurance, it's a question on when the VC will allow them to go under. Which may or may not be a blessing to Hyperion.
It's not secret that I have had a very low opinion of Amiga Inc for many years now. After reading what they did to atleast one low level employee, they have well earned my contempt. Now they are playing hide and seek with the money the court has awarded their now ex-employee, how safe do you feeel about the survival of your Amiga (which I take it is a real Amiga and not a TeronONE mobo?)?
Dammy
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i find this all amazing..... how can we expect this company to actually produce something? A company who dosent have enough funding to pay the rent! They now work from their own homes.. lol..
I would like to point out that Wizards of the Coast was not paying it's employees for some time prior to the release of Magic the Gathering.. a couple years later they bought TSR.
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A bottom of the line 24 port switch and a 2610 router hardly qualifies as the basis for a new ISP! The router is probably a two-port FastEthernet version for connecting to the switch and to AINC's internet gateway, hardly a huge waste of money since 3com or Dell kit is not much cheaper and is a lot nastier.
adavidm
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I count 50 computers... 32 monitors... but their 'on schedule and rockin' ...
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>imac pc loaner
Hello
Who will lend (APPLE???) iMac to Amiga Inc for software development?
APPLE (Steve Jobs) or EPSON or a PC company?
Are they writing "Epson device driver", secretly porting AmigaOS/ AmigaDE to iMac?
Why Murphy keep calling it iMac PC? Is this some sort of Intel X86 PC inside iMac case?
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Same #### different owners. It seems no company has any idea how to save amiga, what a shame.
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asian1: actually it's more accurate term cause:
PC = personal computer
Everydays use for PC is just shortened (stupidified) version of "IBM PC Clone"
Anyhow.. this list does not make a differece.. they don't have money to pay old rents, so it'll must go.
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I knew Amiga was finished... but I had an annoying thought in the back of mind that maybe there was some explanation, but this update confirms it in black and white :/
So it is now blatently obvious that it's up to the community to keep things going.. so I've made up my mind: I will buy an A1/OS4 :)
- Paul
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heard it is possible to recover contents of hard disks (even deleted and written over) using special tools (clean room). Perhaps Genesi / BBRV will buy their computers
FUD.
There is more than one way to wipe a hard disk so that the contents cannot be restored, retrieved or otherwise recovered, no matter what the means you try.
For you to think that the auctioneers would be allowed to sell hard disks with corporate IP on them, shows that you don't know much about IP law. They would be in a nice fix if they did.
P.S. As sensible people might expect, we have already collected our IP and wiped the drives. But, go ahead and make sure you bid nice and high. :lol:
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@George
Amiga is not bankrupt and Amiga have not stopped involvement with AmigaOS 4.0 and beyond. Amiga also still owns the Amiga trademarks. Anything you hear otherwise is designed to stir up fear, uncertainty and doubt within the Amiga community.
AmigaOS 4.0 is going as planned with Amiga involved with Hyperion and their staff. See the new AmigaOS 4.0 screenshots (http://os.amiga.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1731&highlight=) for the latest.
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@Downix
Amiga has plenty to do with AmigaOS 4.0 today, even though none of our guys are doing the actual coding. Check your facts instead of relying on old information.
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I knew Amiga was finished...
I think you'll need to check that crystal ball again soon.
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@HMetal
Credibility--
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Edited by Argo: Trolling
Hey.. All I asked if Hmetal now owns the company cause he sure sounds like it? If that was trolling I'm most amazed :-)
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Hey there 8-)
the original auction list was compiled when the landlord let the auctioneers into the building before we had removed what we were entitled to remove, which is all IP, hard drives and any other storage media with IP on it and all the prototypes that we were given by our customers and partners.
Bill and Gordon were there yesterday and removed all of the above. The auctioneers turned up near the end with a truck full of other stuff that they are selling as well and complained that there was just rubbish left. In fact they had already been moving in other stock to sell at the auction, so those who think we had 30 HP Vectras, 10s of 21 inch monitors and the like should think again. Almost all Amiga employees used either laptops or their own personal classic Amigas.
Our entire IT sourcing was done using Gateway because we got a deal for using them negotiated into our purchace of Amiga.
Sorry to disappoint the naysayers, although I'm sure they'll turn this into something that proves we are bust, the Augsburg show is a movie set and the moon is a big balloon that gets towed across the sky every so often.
Enjoy the showing of AmigaOS4, enjoy buying Amiga Pocket Packs manufactured and marketed by Microsoft. A dead body has never done so much. :-) :-) :-)
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http://www.murphyauctions.net/amiga.html:
Amiga Inc is being sold by order of the property management. Some of the equipment listed has been claimed by vendors as of Wednesday, June 11, 2003. The equipment was only on the premises as a "loaner" to Amiga for development reasons. The following items have been removed from the sale:
Poster: HMetal Date: 2003/6/14 21:51:12
Quote:
I knew Amiga was finished...
I think you'll need to check that crystal ball again soon.
I have no doubts that "Amiga" as so far as Hyperion & co. and the comunity will carry on, but as far as Amiga Inc. goes... what are you telling me - Amiga is being bought (again)? This is just business as usual? :(
I wanted to see Amiga Inc. succeed; I thought the AmigaDE was cool; And I was so close to buying the Amiga SDK to develop a small mathematics packge for PDA (then my monitor blew up which hurt to replace as I'm a not-so-rich full time uni student).
I don't understand, but then again business bores me so I plead ignorance... Your words and the auction description indicate to me that this was not a voluntary, routine auction. That to me seems like either Amiga Inc. is finished or at least extremely cornered. Wont this affect the so-called "credit rating"? Who will do business with them? Who will want to work for them or rely on them/trust them?
Clearly I've missed something and this situtation is obvious to everyone else. I'll just go back to hacking whatever I'm working on. Perhaps I should do some study. Maybe I'll watch some TV.
- Paul
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Is it legal for the auctioneer to imply that someone who does not own—or have in custody—the corporate entity of Amiga, Inc. is selling that corporate entity? How can we contact the auctioneer to urge them to change the wording to more accurately reflect reality?
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Enjoy the showing of AmigaOS4, enjoy buying Amiga Pocket Packs manufactured and marketed by Microsoft
Please Fleecy, stop taking credit for things you have nothing to do with. At least have some respect for the ppl who have done it for you.
OS4 -> Hyperion (luckily)
Games in Pocketpack -> external developers based on a Tao dev kit.
But i like it that way. Please keep as far away from OS4 as you can. The only thing you have on your record, is a very dubious scheme to collect money.
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Is it legal for the auctioneer to imply that someone who does not own—or have in custody—the corporate entity of Amiga, Inc. is selling that corporate entity? How can we contact the auctioneer to urge them to change the wording to more accurately reflect reality?
@billsey
The auction company is required, by federal disclosure laws, to announce that they are selling the assets of Amiga Inc due to the foreclosure procedings by the landlord.
"Fleecy" and Ray's stories once again don't match reality, or indeed even each other. Both seem desperate to minimize the fact that the auction is taking place and that their business assets are gone. We call that "damage control".
I have no doubt that the auctioneer is bringing in additional items for that auction. That is very common practice with auction houses, but the items shown on that auction page (all 50 computers, all monitors, drives, etcetera) were property of Amiga Inc at one point or another. They were all seized by the landlord to cover what amounts to a great deal of debt.
Private bankruptcy is no different. If you have a house and file bankruptcy, the auction company plasters huge "bankruptcy sale" signs all over the newspaper and neighborhood to make sure everyone knows that you are financially irresponsible and not trustworthy with money. Bankruptcy is intentionally a very humiliating process.
That being said, I am not suggesting that AI has filed bankruptcy (before you willingly read that into my comments). I am stating for a fact that their business property was foreclosed and, as it is written on the auction site now, this is black and white, and written in stone.
The fact that no one there (with the probable exception of Ray, "Fleecy" and Bill) has been paid in almost 6 months is a very convincing argument that Amiga Inc is "nearly dead", and I cannot feel in my heart that's a bad thing.
They have no offices
They have no trademarks
They have no honor (re: Bolton Peck/Insurance situation)
They have no employees (they have volunteers)
They have zero credit rating to attract investors or partners.
Furthermore,
DE? Tao
OS4? Hyperion
A1? Eyetech
The "Bill and `Fleecy` travelling circus" showing OS4 on the classic Amiga is irrelevant. While I applaud the valiant efforts of Hyperion and Eyetech to bring a marketable product to bear despite Amiga Inc's bungling, any company or individual stupid enough to give Amiga Inc money today has my sympathies.
I just wish I'd spent the $175 for the plane ticket two weeks ago so that I could go and roast marshmellows over the rotting corpse that is Amiga Inc at the auction.
Wayne
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Please Fleecy, stop taking credit for things you have nothing to do with. At least have some respect for the ppl who have done it for you.
Well.. I can only speak as an "external developer based on a Tao dev kit". I think Amiga did a lot of things to bring us the PocketPacks. Our programs are filled with calls to Amiga-API's, our games are running as .ami-packages in an Amiga-Anywhere runtime and they've been put in the stores because of a deal with Microsoft which I myself would not have been able to make. I feel pretty comfortable with Fleecy saying Amiga Inc. is responsible for that, because they _ARE_.
Regards,
Onno
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Poster: fleecy Date: 2003/6/14 7:32:52
... buying Amiga Pocket Packs manufactured and marketed by Microsoft. A dead body has never done so much.
If your not so dead, how about paying off your overdue debts? If your not so dead, why have you NOT paid the court ordered monies to Peck. You must remember him, he's one of your former employees you screwed over. Guess he's too low level for you guys to worry about, huh? That's what the sucker gets for his devotion and loyality to Amiga Inc., stabbed in the back?
Why are certain employees being paid by methods designed to circumvent those you owe debts to? What type of slimey deadbeat would do that to their former employee? Oh yeah, your in bed with Microsoft, I forgot. Screw the little guy over, it's the Microsoft's way afterall and you've learned it well. You all make me sick.
Dammy
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@Wayne
The auction company is required, by federal disclosure laws, to announce that they are selling the assets of Amiga Inc due to the foreclosure procedings by the landlord.
Yes, but I have to agree with Billsey. The way that paragraph is formulated it implies they are selling the whole corporate entity - that is Amiga Inc., complete with any IP or other assets they might have, rather than just the equipment impounded by the landlord.
I have no doubt that the auctioneer is bringing in additional items for that auction. That is very common practice with auction houses, but the items shown on that auction page (all 50 computers, all monitors, drives, etcetera) were property of Amiga Inc at one point or another. They were all seized by the landlord to cover what amounts to a great deal of debt.
I'm with you on this one. The ridiculous story by "fleecy" that this is equipment brought in by the auctioneers and is being fraudulently passed off as having belonged to Amiga Inc. (presumably for no other reason than to spread more "FUD" about the company) is so laughable it isn't true.
The situation is simple: Amiga Inc were evicted and their office equipment seized for non-payment of rent. In the year since that happened, Amiga Inc have been unable to raise the funds to pay off their arrears and avoid the public humiliation of having their equipment auctioned.
If this is an indication of a company that has no financial difficulties and is thriving, then I would be the next supremo at the Vatican.
It don't know what "fleecy" and Ray are on, but I strongly suspect it has hallucinogenic properties.
- It is hugely debatable whether there is such a thing as Amiga Inc's corporate entity, or precisely what it is they own or do, but that is not relevant to Billsey's point.
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@Wayne:
The "Bill and `Fleecy` travelling circus" showing OS4 on the classic Amiga is irrelevant. While I applaud the valiant efforts of Hyperion and Eyetech to bring a marketable product to bear despite Amiga Inc's bungling, any company or individual stupid enough to give Amiga Inc money today has my sympathies.
I find this comment totally unnecessary. You know very well that OS4 has nothing to do with AmigaInc so please let not mix things up here. This is indeed a very strong statemtent you are making. What you are saying here or at least what i am reading in this is: don't buy os4.
:-(
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@Ohno:
with all respect, but we are talking about THE 2 or 3 pocketpacks yes? Games that are allready out for more than a year? So we are speaking of 8, at max 12 games?
This must earn them and you a lot of money...
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with all respect, but we are talking about THE 2 or 3 pocketpacks yes? Games that are allready out for more than a year? So we are speaking of 8, at max 12 games?
Yes we are talking about these cards (there are 3, but I only care about the last two, since they are the first of a bunch). These games are not out for a year, most have been heavily adjusted in the mean time and they all run on a new AA-environment (based on intent1.3).
And yes.. we are CURRENTLY speaking of 8, max 12 games for now. But that's usually how it goes... you start by releasing a couple of games and after that, when successfull you work on the next bunch. These first cards are just a start, just like AOS4 is just a start in bringing AOS back up to modern standards. The fact that there are currently only 8-12 games released on gamecards doesn't mean these are the only games in existence. I can assure you there are more.
About the earning I can tell you that I haven't seen a single dime so far, which is understandable, since I haven't released anything so far. We are working on jami and Go for Goal though and would like to make some money on that in the future when they are finally done.
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Poster: Ohno Date: 2003/6/14 14:13:39
It's good that Amiga Inc may make some money, I'm sure Mr. Peck will be more then willing to get any payments to Amiga Inc garnished. ;)
Dammy
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@JoannaK
Would it not make make sense to you that someone who works for the company knows what going on with it?
This is the case here. The owners have not changed.
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@Wayne
Hyperion nore eyetech have anything to do with the Auction, so there was no need to even remotely bring them into it.
Add to that your also calling them stupid.
Who the hell apointed you to judge eyetech & hyperion.
Your comment about eyetech hyperion & Aos4 booting on the classic are totally O/T Plus Amiga.inc are not involved in the tour as fare as i know.
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@z5
Hyperion is doing a terrific job with AmigaOS 4.0. However, Amiga has a lot to do with AmigaOS 4.0 and beyond. Most of it is behind the scenes, but that's okay.. you are allowed to have an opinion, even if it is wrong. :-)
Games in the the Amiga PocketPaks use Amiga graphics APIs and other APIs that have not been released to the public (yet). Jonas (aka Messiah) and I have both addressed this previously so, if you're really concerned as to what we've added, go hunting.
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@Dammy
Don't you mean garnisheed, unless you think Mr. Peck would like parsley on his money? :lol:
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@Wayne
Are you that bitter? Is it the fact that nobody takes you seriously anymore that makes you lash out at anybody even vaguely associated with Amiga Inc.? What happened to the "truth" that was coming out but you just couldn't tell us about?
Not only have you insulted the "volunteers" (bullshit) that work for Amiga Inc, you have insulted anybody associated with the OS4 tour.
I just wish I'd spent the $175 for the plane ticket two weeks ago so that I could go and roast marshmellows over the rotting corpse that is Amiga Inc at the auction.
I really think you need to get out more mate. You say Amiga Inc have contributed to the death of the Amiga community... well IMO you contribute just as much.
I am now deleting my account at amiga.org, because I cannot bring myself to visit a site that is run by a webmaster who takes great joy in watching the demise of anything/anybody associated with a company that he has a personal grudge against, and who spreads blatant bullshit to fuel his own ego (I mean look at your avatar for christ's sake - is that in poor taste or what?) I used to have a great deal of reepect for you Wayne.
Feel free to bitch about amigaworld.net - but I prefer the friendly discussion there to the crap the amiga.org has become.
Adios Amigas :-)
Ian :-D
-Edit: it appears I can't delete my account. Oh well.
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@Hmetal
However, Amiga has a lot to do with AmigaOS 4.0 and beyond. Most of it is behind the scenes, but that's okay.. you are allowed to have an opinion, even if it is wrong
Please stay away from OS4 as far as you and AmigaInc possibly can. If think you showed enough of your capabilities with the brillant (s)cam, which, as we all know, not only brought the whole OS4 project in a bad spotlight but also did not having anything to do with those very same companies.
that have not been released to the public (yet).
Funny that you put that 'yet' between brackets. It's all we have seen from you guys: coming soon now any minute. Is this the next next version of the dev kit we are talking about. Seem to have read it in hmm...let's think...it was in Amiga Active i think.
go hunting
No thanks, i think it would a bit too much time to actaully find anything.
Sorry to sound so bitter, but from here, AmigaInc situation looks really bad, you know that?
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@amimonkey
As they say...don't let the door hit ya...
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Who cares????
There is AmigaOS 4.0 with upgrades up to AOS 4.999999999999999999999999999....
There is MorphOS.
And there is AROS.
Tao still owns that Intent stuff.
Amiga is still a trademark of Gateway and Commodore and they don´t object to me using it. :-)
So unless you
1) are a former employee who they own wages
2)are Hyperion, Eyetech, Genesi or someone else who wants to secure part the trademark.
3)want a t-shirt
it doesn´t matter.
Having said that i hope that Amiga Inc goes bankcrupt so the former employees can get what they are owed and that the trademark either is bought by Hyperion or reverts to Gateway and is keept unused by them(Gateway).
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@Dan
"Amiga is still a trademark of Gateway and Commodore and they don´t object to me using it"
Okay, let's test that theory. Show me where you use the trademark.
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Okay, let's test that theory. Show me where you use the trademark.
Oh, i didn´t mean commercial use.
But i have this Amigasticker at my tower and i also printed a t-shirt. :-D
I also have an A1200 it says Amiga on the casing of it and i use it all the time. :-D
Just look at this thread i used the word Amiga several times. Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga.
I can even say that MorphOS and WinUAE let´s you run Amiga programs faster than an Amiga.
And you can´t sue me, isn´t that annoying?
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Hyperion is doing a terrific job with AmigaOS 4.0. However, Amiga has a lot to do with AmigaOS 4.0 and beyond.
We know exactly what Amiga DE Inc has to do with
AmigaOS 4.0!!!!!
Pay for the name....
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And a lot of MorphOS webpages use the trademark and get away with it.
You didn´t buy the Amiga name from Gateway you just licensed it. So i think that Gateway can do whatever they want with it, they would be foolish if they made a contract to the contrary. They are a PC company, legal battles is everyday work for them...
I don´t know what´s up with that mysterious deregistration of the Amiga trademark but its probably because they want to keep it out of a bankcrupcy or something...
Maybe I should start an clothes firm, i was thinking of using the name Amiga. That way i could sue your asses if you ever released any t-shirts with the name Amiga. :lol:
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@z5
Sorry, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you want to buy OS4, more power to you. I just wish, like you that Amiga Inc would stay far, far away from OS4 to avoid the corruption.
Wayne
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@Alkemyst
1) What the hell are you blathering about? I didn't call Hyperion, nor Eyetech stupid to the best of my knowledge.
2) If you or anyone else misunderstood anything to the contrary, please accept my apologies because that was not my intention.
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@Ian,
Whatever. If you're going to decide your future presence on this web site based on what you think you read versus what's actually written there, then..... Have a nice day.
(If you re-read it again, you will note that I said that I "applaud the valiant efforts of Hyperion and Eyetech". In my mind, I have little problem with either company. My issues are strictly with the "management" of Amiga Inc and their constant scams, lies, and bungling of anything they touch.)
If you're going to hate me for telling the truth about their situation AS ALMOST EVERYONE HERE CAN SEE IT, perhaps you're right about the need for your presence.
If you're going to hate me for my avatar, it would seem that I am not the one who needs a life here.
Before the door hits you in the ass however, ask yourself this.... How many verifyable humiliating problems will Amiga Inc create for themselves before you stop the apparent hero worship long enough to admit that there are problems? Remember, admitting there is a problem is the first step on the road to recovery... :-P
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HMetal: Amiga has plenty to do with AmigaOS 4.0 today, even though none of our guys are doing the actual coding. Check your facts instead of relying on old information.
What facts? Where's the new information (besides the auction!!!)
Amiga, understandably, is saying nothing about their financial situation, because they simply do not have to. The only fact is, they don't have to do anything. And they've done a marvelous job. What engineering has Amiga put into the AmigaOne? Nothing notable. They didn't even add a PCI card with a legacy floppy controller (in leiu of the A1200 connector that never made the cut). They did promise custom firmware. Who did the firmware? Hyperion, starting with another firmware package. What has Amiga done for OS4? Give the reigns to Hyperion.
Given that the last executive update has been... a long, long time ago, the only fact I can gather is that Amiga Inc. started the AmigaOne project and gave their OS3.1 IP to Hyperion.
Wow. That's a lot of progress after 3 years!
HMetal: Hyperion is doing a terrific job with AmigaOS 4.0. However, Amiga has a lot to do with AmigaOS 4.0 and beyond. Most of it is behind the scenes, but that's okay.. you are allowed to have an opinion, even if it is wrong.
Way, way behind the scenes? Amiga Inc. is under no obligation to tell the world what they are doing and how they are doing it...
...unless they actually expect us to pay for it!
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Hello
This "forced" auction can be avoided, if Bill McEwen had a good financial planning and management. There are better ways to get rid of the unused assets.
If the cash run low and Amiga Inc cann't pay the rent, perhaps the remaining asset can be sold / auctioned by Amiga Inc BEFORE the rent deadline expired. Another strategy is to move and store the remaining assets in a warehouse / storage service (ie U-Haul).
This "forced" auction REALLY tarnish / destroy Amiga Inc reputation and proved the poor financial management at Amiga Inc.
Imagine if Amiga Inc financial situation improved in the future and Amiga Inc plan to rent new office space. If the new landlord find out about Amiga Inc "forced" auction, the landlord will demand higher fee or full payment in advance.
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Poster: HMetal Date: 2003/6/14 16:44:23
@Dammy
Don't you mean garnisheed, unless you think Mr. Peck would like parsley on his money?
Hey, I'm just helping out Ben with his "illiterate Americans" statements. See, I help out both sides. ;P
So what is left of Amiga Inc that is worth anything of value now?
Dammy
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@Wayne
Before the door hits you in the ass however, ask yourself this.... How many verifyable humiliating problems will Amiga Inc create for themselves before you stop the apparent hero worship long enough to admit that there are problems? Remember, admitting there is a problem is the first step on the road to recovery...
Why is everyone who opposes you or think differently than you an Amiga-worshipper? Yet if someone calls you a Pegasos worshipper you get insulted?
AmigaMonkey just pointed out that you are overly biased and he doesn't like they way you talk about Amiga. He prefers a civilized talk like people have on Amigaworld.net and the way it once was on Amiga.org.
I work on Amiga-Anywhere and I don't worship Amiga Inc., I think there were quite a few things they should have done differently, but even Fleecy himself says they made mistakes in the past. I do try to step in however when people are telling blatent lies or ridicule Amiga Inc. based on nothing (although they usually claim it to be based on facts).
And I personally don't see anything wrong with your avatar, love that movie. But I can imagine someone taking offence in ridiculing their way of life/their believes.
Regards,
Onno
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I think this all is getting to far now...
AInc is in trouble othervise they would deliver products and this sort of auction would never take a place - FACT!
Just by runing this sort of site Wayne has done more for Amiga comunity then AInc themselves - FACT!
And for the end - Amiga as a platform needs input from a GENIUS not from a clever economist, or a truck driver or businessman...etc. in order to survive and stand next (or above) PC or Mac market from today. Just remember how and why did we start using it 15+ years ago... Exactly!!! It was the product of THE GENIUS...
Someone has to start with serious GURU MEDITATION otherwise we never will get anywhere - FACT!
Untill then I will be checking Amiga.org regulary on my 2Ghz wintel machine (that rocks!!!) with a hope that one day GENIUS will apear again...
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I feel a strong urge to jump in here (even though I know I shouldn't :-P ).
I want to point out that Eyetech and Hyperion are doing a good job, I feel sorry that this situation occured.
But the following is all the fault of Amiga Inc., I'm not talking of past mistakes or inheriting a bad situation. I am saying Amiga Inc. as they are now, are to blame for this whole situation.
Genesi (and the MOS team) and AROS are both reactions to Amiga Inc.'s very clear and firm annoucment that the "Classic Amiga" was finished. No more Amiga Classic systems. AmigaOS? nah, that's dead, we've got AmigaDE!!!
The MOS Team saw a market and started developing a product to fill it. The AROS team was formed by members of this community who didn't wish to see their beloved platform die. And all goes well, until Amiga Inc. realise that AmigaDE is still born and unable to meet even the more modest parts of their new Amiga specification. They see that MOS and AROS are going to hit the target market spot on, and then rope in Eyetech to make them some PPC hardware and claim that AmigaOS4.0 (PPC native) is entering the final stage of development/testing (back in 2002/2001, I forget, since they put out so many statements!). This turns out to be a lie (along with AmigaOS x86, probably an attempted to displace the AROS team).
It turns out that AmigaOS 4.0 does not exist and Hyperion are brought in to make it happen. Eyetech are let down by their PPC board company and have to buy in standard PPC boards....
So where does that leave us? In a very nasty situation. Had Amiga Inc said, ok, we will licence the PPC version of MOS as AmigaOS PPC and, say licence the x86 Version of AROS for AmigaOS x86 (The AROS team actually changed their licence to make this possible!), we would not be in this situaton...
Put simply they got greedy.
So who is to blame? That's right Amiga Inc. :-(
So now we have three solutions (two and a half :-P, since AROS PPC is still very early) and one market. Well done Amiga Inc. Your business acumon is fantasic. :-x
-EDIT- Feel free to disagree, This is afterall just my view of the situation. :-o
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@bloodline
This turns out to be a lie (along with AmigaOS x86, probably an attempted to displace the AROS team).
That's bollox and you know it Matt. "Amiga x86" was the name Amiga Inc wanted to market Amithlon under, probably for no other reason than using the "Amiga" trademark and "x86" to indicate the target hardware.
Amithlon was not developed as an alternative to AROS, nor were Amiga Inc interested in it in order to displace AROS. You really take AROS way too seriously if you think anyone regards it as a threat to anybody's market. It isn't that now, and it most certainly wasn't two years ago.
The reason "Amiga x86" never materialised as advertised was a combination of things: lack of funds at Amiga Inc meaning they could not convince the authors they would able to deliver on their promises, threats and blackmail from H&P and strong vociferous opposition from Eyetech and Hyperion against any involvement with the x86 market whatsoever.
The rest of your rant is entertaining too, but doesn't seem to have much basis in fact to me, so I'll just treat it as an imaginative re-write of history.
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Clearly I didn't know it. As this is what I've seen and had to put up with.
I made a suggestion that AmigaOS x86 was an effort to displace AROS. It was a possiblity, not fact, and I presented it as such.
As for therest of my rant. I would be happy for you to point out my missunderstanding od what went on, because, in all honesty that is exactly as I view it...
I'm not trying to distort the events, I concider myself a keen Amiga user, and thus have always wanted to see the Amiga survive. It is with great regret that I now see Amiga Inc. as slowly drowning the Amiga platform and name.
I say, without bias, that Genesi have done more for the Amiga community in the last 6 months than Amiga Inc. have ever done. Simply based on the level of support they have provided.
I don't want to say anything against either Hyperion or Eyetech, they simply have to make the best of the situation they (unwittingly?) fell/jumped into, almost certainly based on lies and broken promises from Amiga Inc.
But again this is my oppinion, if you can provide me with evidence to the contraty I will happily make a public retraction.
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Why is everyone who opposes you or think differently than you an Amiga-worshipper? Yet if someone calls you a Pegasos worshipper you get insulted?
Point taken. See? It's apparently very easy to get confused in either direction.
To set the record straight, I hope the Amiga platform succeeds. I really do, but I honestly feel that if the Amiga succeeds, it will be because of companies such as Eyetech, Hyperion, and Genesi, as well as the Amiga community IN SPITE OF Amiga Inc.
Let's remember a fact here folks. Bill McEwen stood at the podium three years ago and declared "AmigaOS is dead" and "The Amiga as a desktop platform is dead". These might be words spoken to fit the times, but it's apparent to most people here that the business plan for DE is dead-ended.
Amiga's plan with DE is to act as a middle man, taking a cut of the profits between developers and sales of DE games. The problem is, the deal for example on the Microsoft game pack is between Microsoft and Amiga Inc (or possibly written between Microsoft and Bill McEwen), not Microsoft and the developers themselves.
An interesting *rumor* I received from an AA developer yesterday has it that the author of the crossword puzzle (which is the only "Amiga" game on the Microsoft pack) won't get paid a dime because AI literally gave that game to Microsoft in exchange for the publishing of the actual Amiga branded game packs. I just hope that if there's ANY truth to that rumor, the author of that game got SOMETHING for his efforts.
Hopefully whomever that author is, is here and can set the record straight? If I'm wrong, that's cool and I apologize, but as stated, this is just the rumor I was presented with.
LEGALLY before Bill McEwen can pay any developer a single dime, he MUST pay off debts such as Bolton Peck and the long list of pending court cases. If any developer receives any sort of payment from Amiga Inc before said debts are settled, it is in violation of federal law.
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I heard a rumor that some folk from AInc are denying that the equiptment in this list is from their office. I went through this list with a fine-tooth comb, and the concept that someone "inserted" equiptment into AInc's auction is utter moose pattys. We have here a complete list of an office, and nothing more nor less. The Viewtronic monitors and HP Vectras, for example, are part of the same setup, they went together. There was a very nice web-server and LAN server setup, designed to handle up to 120 computers and w/ the bandwidth and workload to handle a huge amount of traffic. In short, AInc was loaded and ready to rock.
But they didn't need any of this till they had a product. They put the cart before the horse, and as a result they lost.
I wish I could say I felt sorry for them, but they did this to themselves.
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@bloodline
I made a suggestion that AmigaOS x86 was an effort to displace AROS. It was a possiblity, not fact, and I presented it as such.
Public knowledge shows that it was not a possibility. It's a known fact that McBill admitted at AmiWest two years ago that they only saw Amithlon for the first time a few days before the show - literally. So how it is that you jump from that to the possible conclusion that it was somehow Amiga Inc's effort to displace AROS is totally beyond my comprehension.
As for the rest, I don't disagree with your assessment of Amiga Inc's performance at all, but I don't agree with your presentation of events. AOS4 was not developed in response to MOS, Amithlon was not developed in response to AROS, and in both cases Amiga Inc had either very little or nothing at all to do with them coming about.
Regarding AOS4, the sequence of events as I recall it goes a little like this:
- Amino buy the Amiga rights from Gateway and then change their name to Amiga Inc. They have no interest in "Classic Amiga" development, concentrating on the AmigaDE future. H&P are due to develop a PPC native AOS4 for use on the existing "Classic" PPC expansion cards. Relations between H&P and AI are not good and getting worse.
- Eyetech make their plans for a custom PPC based AmigaOne public, and AI see an opportunity to sell a desktop OS again (meanwhile their plans for DE turn out to be wildly optimistic). They are still in agreement that H&P should to the job, but with far less freedom and priviledges than H&P had grown accustomed with. H&P are even less happy about AI.
- H&P disagree with the conditions and direction AI want to go in and quietly drop any AOS4 development, probably also due to not getting any financial support from AI towards development. They concentrate on other directions - which later turn out to be a UAE port to QNX. Meanwhile Eyetech also encounter growing problems with Escena.
- AI's reaction to H&P's action is to talk to the MOS developers about possibly turning MOS into the next official AOS. We've all heard the stories relating to how that turned out. So the result is that AI have no OS to present to Eyetech for AmigaOne, but this seems unimportant as Escena seem incapable of delivering a working board anyway. Everything grinds to a halt, with the exception of MOS, but no one thinks it would be a good idea to tell the public about it (and they are probably right).
(I don't know much about the Thendic/Pegasos timeline - but I wasn't even aware of their existence at this stage)
- AmiWest 2001 comes about, and Amithlon is presented as "Amiga x86". All hell breaks loose and the PPC vs x86 wars hit the road in earnest. Hyperion and Eyetech supremos make very public and very damning comments about what they see as utterly disatrous involvement with the x86 market, but it dawns on them that their own PPC solution is virtually kaput. AOS4 development is stalled, and Eyetech have virtually given up on Escena. What to do?
- AI lose/give up Amithlon pulication to H&P and cease talking about it. They concentrate all their talk on the PPC future and the "Triumvirate" is formed. Hyperion offer to do the OS, Eyetech promise to get the hardware project restarted and Amiga Inc... well, Amiga Inc see the "money for nothing" signs and say "Sure, go ahead. We're right behind you."
During all this time Thendic's profile grows as their alliance with the MOS team is strengthened.
I can't see how any of this leads you to believe that AOS4 was devised in response to MOS or Amithlon developed to displace AROS.
You might argue that I don't list AROS as a significant factor in any of the events above, and you'd be right. AROS was never a threat to anyone, and it still isn't. The only role it had was as an indirect factor in the way Amithlon was conceived. (The original idea was to use AROS and integrate the JIT 68k emulation into it to result in a closed source commercial product. This ended up being rejected for a number of reasons, being replaced with the Linux+JIT+AOS combination that finally hit the market).
In conclusion: have Genesi done more for the community than Amiga Inc? Assuredly so. Have Amiga Inc demonstrated incompetence time after time? Yup. Have they proved incapable of learning from past mistakes? 'fraid so. Do I think your interpretation of events has even the remotest possibility of being accurate? Nope.
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In conclusion: have Genesi done more for the community than Amiga Inc? Assuredly so. Have Amiga Inc demonstrated incompetence time after time? Yup. Have they proved incapable of learning from past mistakes? 'fraid so. Do I think your interpretation of events has even the remotest possibility of being accurate? Nope.
While I don't quite agree with some of the way you have interpreted events, I will submit that you are more aware of the overall situation than I am.
But as I consider myself as an Average Amiga User, I would say that my interpretation is probably not unique.
At the end of the day, and most importantly, we have drawn the same conclutions from the differing infomation avaiable to us both... which, I think you will agree, shows how useless A Inc. have been, and will continue to be, until they get some decent management... not these Dotcom boomers.
As for AROS, You are probably right. But I will hold that A Inc. were worried that MOS and AROS were targeting something they felt they should have even though they had claimed the Amiga Desktop was dead and AmigaOS was to be phased out with 3.9... or some such nonsense. :-)
-Edit- A Inc. Business meeting http://amiga.org/gallery/photo.php?lid=493 (http://amiga.org/gallery/photo.php?lid=493)
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@bhoggett
I remember it exactly as you said.
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LEGALLY before Bill McEwen can pay any developer a single dime, he MUST pay off debts such as Bolton Peck and the long list of pending court cases. If any developer receives any sort of payment from Amiga Inc before said debts are settled, it is in violation of federal law.
Not so sure about that. Amiga Inc. is our distributor (as per our SDA) and only distributes our product. They take a cut of the sales-price and that is the money they make. It might be possible they need to pay of depts first with that part of the money (not sure of your legal system and not sure if there are any more depts either), but it seems very strange to me that other people's money should be used to pay of their distributors' depth.
Regards,
Onno
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Poster: Ohno Date: 2003/6/15 15:31:54
but it seems very strange to me that other people's money should be used to pay of their distributors' depth.
If Amiga Inc is forced to turn over any monies to those parties which have a judgement against them, Amiga Inc will still owe you monies. They'll just have to owe it to you is all. You trust them, right? ;^)
Dammy
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Ohno:
IANAL ... Nor I never wanted to be. But my best advice is that you'll better check that one with someone who understands USA systems.. In my amateur view any money that goes into Ainc-s account is treated equally, I don't belive there is a way to mark some money going to you (or other DE game makers) so that it could not be spend on higher priority uses.
(edit.. Removed last line.. was too inpolite)
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Sad.
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Poster: Wayne Date: 2003/6/14 13:02:10
They have no employees (they have volunteers)
I wonder if IRS considers that as taxiable? IRS can tax bartering, they probably can tax Amiga Inc getting these benefits of professional volunteer's work? Anyone know the IRS tax code enough to comment?
Dammy
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I made a suggestion that AmigaOS x86 was an effort to displace AROS. It was a possiblity, not fact, and I presented it as such.
I wouldn’t regard the current ‘AROS (referring to the main X86 distribution)’ as ‘AmigaOS X86’ since it doesn’t run the old 'AmigaOS' based legacy software** on the X86 hardware. Secondly, AROS doesn’t quite have an official “AmigaOS” endorsement. It’s just a clone**** with source code compatibility on non-68k hardware.
I don’t see people in the mainstream market labelling ‘OS/2 Warp’(with Windows compatibility) as ‘MS Windows’…
**Binary distributions.
****A clone that has potential.
I do hope that Amiga Inc can control their unnecessary expenditures in the near future. Events such as mentioned earlier doesn’t help with evangelism of AmigaOS platform.
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>>>>
Not so sure about that. Amiga Inc. is our distributor (as per our SDA) and only distributes our product. They take a cut of the sales-price and that is the money they make. It might be possible they need to pay of depts first with that part of the money (not sure of your legal system and not sure if there are any more depts either), but it seems very strange to me that other people's money should be used to pay of their distributors' depth.
>>>>>
I dont think law in the Netherlands is that much different, but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime, they currently arent paying salaries to their employees/volunteers for much the same reason. At this point, depending on how much the auction takes in (my guess is they will still owe the landlord money), they will still need to sell over 30,000 gamepacks before the will get enough royalties (counting the full sum from Microsoft into there pot) to pay there debts, and as more former employees sue, and more debters sue this number gets bigger, not counting the current volunteers, I would guess there are probably a dozen ex-employees like Bolten and Matt who are owed money. All of them who sue (and win and they will all win) will get paid before you get paid. They'll get paid before the volunteers get their salaries back, the problem is I'm not sure Amiga will be around long enough for them to pay everyone the money they owe them.
-Tig
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but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime
Again.. they distribute our products for which we get paid, they only take a cut. That cut is all they are legally entitled to so it is the only part any depter can claim.
[imaginary world]
If you'd ask me to sell a home-cinema system for you and we agree I get 5% of the sales-price is I make the sale, that 5% is all depters would be able to take from me, although I have the full amount of money in my pocket after a sale. This is because most likely you can show the correct paperwork to prove that 95% of what I have in my pocket after that sale is legally yours. They cannot take your money to pay of my depts.
[/imaginary world - yes.. I'm deptless again :)]
Just like the auctioners here legally had to allow items to be removed from the auction, since they are loans to Amiga Inc, deptors can not claim money that is legally someone else's money.
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And about the Peck-story: I don't have the facts (although I do know Amiga Inc's side of the story as well), but I have worked for a startup company in the past. I went months without pay as well.
Some people quit their jobs because of it, which is what you SHOULD do if you're not feeling comfortable with the situation. I stayed because I wanted to. I preferred the challenge over the paycheck at that time. In the end it didn't work out and the company did go bust.
Bummer... For every success there are hundreds of failures. You can take the risk to either win or loose in the end, or you can play it safe and find another job. Everyone has to decide for himself, but you must remember the choice is yours and so are the consequences of that choice.
I'm developing for Amiga-Anywhere.. why?
I love the platform and again I love the challenge. I have a full-time job next to it to get me a steady income so I don't even take a financial risk here, but I know people who do. And I can only admire them for it, they are following their dream just like the people at Amiga Inc. Following your dreams is usually not easy and can hold a great deal of risks. The people at Amiga Inc. put their life into creating their dream and all they hear is people bitching about it. I see Amiga Inc. people working all days, evenings and weekends, they are helpfull to the developers, they are bringing us a new OS a new platform and a way for bedroom programmers to get their stuff released again. For me they bring back fun to computing. Something I've sorely missed the last couple of years.
And what do they get for their sacrifice? A lot of people bitching about everything. Every word they say is misinterpreted and fired back at them. When they do decide to go silent they are attacked for being silent.
I do get worked up about that, because I respect people who take a risk to follow their dream. These are usually the kind of people who actually make a difference in the world if they succeed, but are never heard of again when they fail. And these kind of people, whether successfull or not ALL make mistakes along the way. That's part of life and part of being human. It's a learning experience.
It seems a lot of people are actually putting huge amounts of energy into finding things Amiga Inc. did wrong and then 'spread the truth'. How about giving these people a break? They want the same thing every true Amigan would want: Computing should be fun again.
Regards,
Onno
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I completly agree with you Ohno!!!
But why lies???
I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!
I think that is the point here...
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I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!
Yes, but I think most of the time (missed deadlines etc) they didn't think they were telling lies at that time. They indeed wanted things to move MUCH quicker. Don't you think they wanted to move forwards more than anyone?
A lot of bitterness is also inherited from the previous Amiga-companies making false promises etc.
As I and AI themselves said: mistakes were made and things they said might not have come true. Maybe they even did willingly misrepresent facts, not sure about that.
If they did I'm pretty sure it was because they wanted to succeed so badly. I haven't experienced a single company yet that hasn't, which doesn't make it right and sure as hell doesn't make me LIKE it. But fact is (and this indeed is a fact) that there are some people at Amiga Inc. who are working extremely hard to get things done. They want to succeed and they've put a lot on the line.
And all they see is people putting them down.
As I stated before, I am not an Amiga Worshipper, but I do like Amiga-Anywhere and would love to get an updated Amiga-OS. But I am interested in Pegasos as well and you shouldn't be surprised if I buy a Peg2 in time as well. It's all about having fun in computing again for me and my Amiga's provided fun for me back in the days. I want to get that fun back and so far it seems like it is getting there. It just takes time and I'm pretty sure the people behind MOS are working just as hard (and the people behind AROS for that matter). I'm glad there'll even be choice in the future. Competition is good in my humble opinion.
On one hand I SEE Amiga Inc. people working hard to get things done, I see the support I'm getting from them when needed and personally, as far as I can see, I don't think I've ever been lied to by any of them. On the other hand I see what people around here are saying about them.
These things are completely out of balance and it seems a lot of people are just having a go at Amiga Inc. for the sake of it.
That's just not right, they deserve a bit more respect for what they are doing or trying to do.
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Like I said earlier - I do agree with you!!!
But in my opinion at least honest and promised monthly "executive updates" are needed to at least put things straight with people who are expecting things...
Just try to be objective - and you will be spot on with your opinion!!!
Keep in mind that not everyone over here takes computing for fun... Me for example!!! I am graphic and web-designer as well as musician who needs tools for his job. If I was waiting for Amiga to deliver product (that they said they would 2 years ago) I would never get anywhere...
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Poster: Ohno Date: 2003/6/16 1:55:35
but Amiga Inc has to settle the judgements against them before they can pay you a dime
Again.. they distribute our products for which we get paid, they only take a cut. That cut is all they are legally entitled to so it is the only part any depter can claim.
Again, that is not how it works, unless Microsoft is writing checks directly to you and Amiga Inc is just mailing them to you, the money from Microsoft goes to an account, the money for that account will go to Bolten before it goes to you, this belief that because they are a distributer for you, you will get the money owed you while they money the courts have give to Bolten, Matt and others will go unpaid is incorrect, don't let the Canadian or the Scottsman tell you different. As for you imaginary scenario, that doesnt work like that here as well. First of all stores buy there merchandise, so your scenario is incorrect, but if they didnt, what would happen is you would deposit the check for the 100% and your debters would seize the money, it wouldnt matter that part of it was a "debt" to the manufacturer of the system. And understand, in reality as a distributer, each unit they sell incurs a debt by them to you for your price per unit. Since you are way down the food chain in the debt department, you dont have a court ordering them to pay you, etc, you will get paid after Bolten, Matt, the Landlord, the express company, the taxes for Washington State, the taxes for the IRS, etc. I think if you ask any US lawyer they will agree with my opinion.
-Tig
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Poster: Ohno Date: 2003/6/16 2:55:35
Just like the auctioners here legally had to allow items to be removed from the auction, since they are loans to Amiga Inc, deptors can not claim money that is legally someone else's money.
Debt and property have different coverage under the law so let's not blur the possible problem. Amiga Inc will owe you your royalities, regardless on who gets paid first.
Amiga Inc may be required to pay existing debts first before they can pay off new debts, such as royalities to you.
I have a cousin who had such an experience. The publisher of his code (back in the days of Vic-20 games) went under and never paid on it. Court ordered judgements had a highier priority then my cousin's work so guess who got screwed? ;-\
Dammy
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And about the Peck-story: I don't have the facts (although I do know Amiga Inc's side of the story as well), but I have worked for a startup company in the past. I went months without pay as well.
Lets go over the facts then:
1) Amiga Inc didnt pay Bolten
2) Amiga Inc didnt pay his insurance
3) Amiga Inc didnt pay the taxes for the salaries when they were paying them.
4) Amiga Inc lost the lawsuit with Bolten for 30K
5) Amiga Inc failed to pay within 90 days
6) Bill McEwen claimed lots of interesting things at his deposition with Boltens lawyers.
Repeat steps 1-5 for Matt instead of Bolten. Repeat those steps for a bunch of other ex-employees in the near future if Amiga gets any money at all. I'm sorry you can excuse Amiga Inc criminal actions with they are working towards a dream rift, I personally dont support a dream built on lies and framed with legal threats.
-Tig
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I think if you ask any US lawyer they will agree with my opinion.
I'm not going to. My mind is already at peace (if it wasn't already).... besides.. it'll cost me a lot of money and he's gonna tell me exactly what you said, right? :-D
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I'm not going to. My mind is already at peace (if it wasn't already).... besides.. it'll cost me a lot of money and he's gonna tell me exactly what you said, right?
Since thats my lawyers opinion I would agree with that statement, thankfully I don't personally have to pay my lawyer though I do have to put up with her snoring :-).
-Tig
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I'm sorry you can excuse Amiga Inc criminal actions with they are working towards a dream rift, I personally dont support a dream built on lies and framed with legal threats.
I clearly stated that I do not agree with everything they said or did in the past. Just like I don't agree with what a lot of other companies do/say. I was just pointing out that people are overreacting in their responses and are generally insulting the wrong people. It's just like someone who is mad at a company for faulty products and start shouting at the support-guy or helpdesk-employee.
And I'm not even going to respond to that 'dream built on lies'-remark, because it's too obvious that's generally not the thing people dream about. Not even those 'Evil' Amiga guys.
Regards,
Onno
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Since thats my lawyers opinion I would agree with that statement, thankfully I don't personally have to pay my lawyer though I do have to put up with her snoring
Cool... so we agree on something? Wow.. that doesn't happen a lot to me on Amiga.org these days :-P
Bummer about you having to put up with the snoring... I take it she'll sue if you confront her about it? :-)
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Ogy,
I think most of the people wouldnt be bitter and angry with Amiga Inc if they were more open and honest with the public - specially comunity who was blindly waiting and beliving in their promises!!!
I think they have done just that over the years, the problem is some people take them at their word (they should really include that standard disclaimer about "forward looking statements...changing business conditions...etc.") and others, frankly see everything as a conspiracy. Of course, some of the later also work for and/or support competing "Amiga-like" projects.
I said this a few weeks ago, now that OS4 is just around the corner we'll see a lot of FUD flying. These people know that once OS4 starts selling, a lot of these alternatives are going to look pretty amateurish.
This is their last chance to knock off Amiga and they know it :)
Zoltan
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This is their last chance to knock off Amiga and they know it :)
Zoltan,
Looks like you're the one whose fallen prey to conspiracy thought. Amiga Inc is dying of self-inflicted wounds and most people here at least admit it.
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>>>>
I was just pointing out that people are overreacting in their responses and are generally insulting the wrong people. It's just like someone who is mad at a company for faulty products and start shouting at the support-guy or helpdesk-employee.
>>>>
No, I place the blame squarely on Bill McEwen and Fleecy "I like Sheep" Moss. I am pretty vocal about that, the lies just I have been present for have hurt the company terribly, and because of that the Amiga Community as a whole.
>>>>
And I'm not even going to respond to that 'dream built on lies'-remark, because it's too obvious that's generally not the thing people dream about. Not even those 'Evil' Amiga guys.
>>>>
Bills dream was to do an IPO and become a Billionaire, he told about 30 of us that, at least 4 of which (myself included) post regularly on this board. Instead he has bankrupted the company, himself and several of his employees, greed is one of the 7 deadly sins for a reason.
-Tig
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Looks like you're the one whose fallen prey to conspiracy thought. Amiga Inc is dying of self-inflicted wounds and most people here at least admit it.
Yes, but they are getting some 'help' as all people on the SDA-lists have already witnessed.
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No, I place the blame squarely on Bill McEwen and Fleecy "I like Sheep" Moss. I am pretty vocal about that, the lies just I have been present for have hurt the company terribly, and because of that the Amiga Community as a whole.
I personally don't see Fleecy as being responsible, but I can live with/understand your way of thinking. And there is no other way of seeing it than Bill McEwen being responsible in the end, simply by being the CEO.
But I wasn't just talking about you. I see people like Ray, Fleecy and several Amiga-Anywhere developers also being attacked for supporting the company that did all these 'nasty' things.
If that's the way to go you could just as well shoot each and every developer in the world, since they most likely all 'supported' a platform/OS from a company that lied, stole or acted immorally in one way or another at some point in time.
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Yes, but they are getting some 'help' as all people on the SDA-lists have already witnessed.
I'm sorry. "You can't know the truth because you're not on some restricted list" is a bullshit excuse. Having to create secretive restrictive lists just to promote your own propoganda and call it truth is bullshit.
Speaking as a former Amiga Inc cheerleader and former member of the "Amiga Community Crisis Management (ACCM)" list -- why would they need a crisis management list if there weren't a problem with Amiga Inc and that was almost two years ago? -- I can tell you that there are an awful lot of things being said on those lists which are simply not true, and they don't even match the demonstratable facts.... At this point, believing anything they say is a matter of personal choice based on your preference to do so, not on any known or demonstratable facts.
Amiga Inc cannot say "The Amiga community is very important to us" then immediately turn and say "we will not tell you anything unless you're on our uber-secret list of cheerleader friends because it's none of your business". It just doesn't work that way.
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I'm sorry. "You can't know the truth because you're not on some restricted list" is a bullshit excuse. Having to create secretive restrictive lists just to promote your own propoganda and call it truth is bullshit.
Ok. You're telling Zoltan he's wrong about his conspiracy theory based on your opinion. I'm saying I do not disagree with you completely but that there is also some truth to what Zoltan is saying and that it is based on stuff we've seen on - indeed- a secret list. So you are basing something on your personal opinion and I'm basing stuff on things you can't see. Seems equally 'trustable' to me. It's about just as good as your 'I've got real proof and I'll show it to everyone at some point in the future on some show that's yet to come, untill then you'll have to take my word for it because I really have the proof in my hands here, honest!'.
Thing is I do not agree with blaming everything on a conspiracy, just like you.
Amiga Inc. has a responsibility as well. But I've also seen at least some evidence of external involvement, just like Zoltan.
I can tell you that there are an awful lot of things being said on those lists which are simply not true
Yeah.. there's a lot of that going around everywhere these days it seems. But don't worry, this was quite convincing :-P
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I personally don't see Fleecy as being responsible, but I can live with/understand your way of thinking. And there is no other way of seeing it than Bill McEwen being responsible in the end, simply by being the CEO.
First of all, as the self admitted master planner and Chief Technology Officer of Amiga Inc, he should indeed be held responsible for the issues he caused, and there are alot of them. In many ways, I believe Fleecy is more responsible for the problems at Amiga Inc then Bill himself. The poor choices and constant restarts which should/could have been avoided if Fleecy had a real grasp of the technology he wanted to use burned lots of money, and created the 0 income, 0 asset company that currently exists.
But I wasn't just talking about you. I see people like Ray, Fleecy and several Amiga-Anywhere developers also being attacked for supporting the company that did all these 'nasty' things.
Ray has dug his own grave of late, and deserves to be thrown in it. His constant double speak about being paid, about the lawsuits, about so many things with the auction have not made him any friends, and has cost him many of those he had. If he doesnt want to comment on a situation thats fine, implying others are lying about a situation by sly comments, implying people that sue Amiga for back wages are disgruntled lazy workers is not position to take if he wanted to be thought of as an honest person in the current Amiga Inc mess.
-Tig
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My wife is going to kill me, but I placed an advanced internet bid on one of the computers.
I suggested they should do this, just cause Amiga fanatics like me simply cannot help themselves.
I do not think there are any secret world domination blueprints on them, just figure the 21" monitor is worth a little something, plus the geek appeal...but I will let you know, if such a document appears. hehe.
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You can buy their old stuff on the internet!?!?
Cool, now Amiga Inc. can buy it all back with the millions they have made with AmigaDE :-D
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Thing is though, who gives a flying f@#k about any of this?
So many of you are arguing your hearts out over what is at the end of the day a lovely, if flawed niche computer system.
I'm an AmigaOS lover just like the rest of you, but there isnt any point poiring your heart and soul into pointless debate like this.
In the nicest possible way, get over it :-)
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@Gnarly,
Debate is what keeps some of us interested.
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@Gnarly,
Debate is what keeps some of us interested.
Thats fair enough, but I still cant see the point of pouring your whole life into it anymore.
Dont get me wrong, I still log on here every day, looking for the latest signs of life in the AmigaOS (be that OS4 screenshots, AmiZilla news, or whatever else), but its just not the same anymore. People keep on debating the same old crap over and over again.
Why can't we debate the relative merits of Reaction vs MUI/Zune/whatever without it always descending into a flamewar between cheerleaders and zealots over the relative merits of the companies and staff involved? Its become a frigging disaster area.
I don't want to discuss the companies or their staff. I have my own views on the subject - I can see that things were done wrongly by *all* sides. In particular the marketing (coming from all sides) smacks of dodgy used car salesmen, but thats another story for another day.
Surely the only reason we come here at all is the Amiga hardware and its accompanying OS. And yet I've never yet seen a *reasoned* discussion about that and its competitors (namely MOS and AROS) that hasn't descended into a flameware or trollfest - feel free to point me to a thread if there is one - (bar the OpenAmiga one - which stood out somewhat).
Mind you, it hasn't really been the same for me since the demise of CU Amiga...
Oops, I seem to have ranted a bit there :-)
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its just not the same anymore. People keep on debating the same old crap over and over again.
Basically, that's because people don't have anything amazing to talk about in this Amiga-land. We all want desperately to go back to the exciting days of the Amiga500, but none of what is currently beeing developed shows any potential to bring that back.
Unless a major U-turn of events takes place, there's nothing really exciting or overwhelming to look forward to, which depresses/frustrates people and brings about these pointless discussions.
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@Tigger
Bill, most of the people that spout crap against me weren't my friends to begin with. The only one of ANY of these people who have either an alternate perspective or contrary opinion, that I respect is Nate Downes. Sure Nate has been somewhat imflammatory and has his own position to think about with Genesi but I still consider him a friend.
People are allowed to have opinions. If their opinions run tangent to my own, that's fine. Time will tell who knows what they're talking about or if there are other motives for their rhetoric.
As for me being paid, that's simply no one's business but mine and Amiga's. If someone other than this pair wants to know, let them summon Amiga's records. My finances are none of your business.
To the auction, I simply uttered one rather tongue-in-cheek comment, which I repeat AGAIN since you people can't get it through your thick skulls, "it is used equipment." If you took something else home from that, that's YOUR problem, not mine. Maybe you need to get a sense of humor to read my reply back then as it was meant to be read. I have a sense of humor, if you don't like that, that's your problem, not mine.
As for my honesty.. If you don't believe what I say, you don't have to. In that case, you're the one with religious passion that's reading more into someone's comments than is written.
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As for the update that I just submitted as a new news item (that somehow got turned into a little note tacked onto the head post of this topic - funny and sad how that happens) :lol:
As you can see, we've had great success in getting the auctioneer to correct his mistaken preamble.
Now if only the trademark people would get their rumps in gear and post our updated trademark status. 8^P
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It should be pointed out that while the auction company yielded to apparently "dozens" of complaints from the members of this web site by saying "Amiga Inc is not going out of business", a quick call to their offices further yielded that "we are only the auctioneer responsible for the auction of their foreclosed business assets, we have no real information as to their actual business status.".
The person I spoke with also continued "Please ask that the members of your site refrain from calling us repeatedly every few minutes when we add something to the auction".
Quite clearly, they've had enough of dealing with the Amiga community whereas this eviction and property seizure is concerned. I can't say I blame them as from what I gather, some of the calls were less than friendly.
I mention this specifically to request that site members (of any site reading this), please lay off of the auction company. They are not responsible for the current condition of Amiga Inc and they're only doing their jobs as auctioneers. They have no agenda, and this is not their fault.
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Dont get me wrong, I still log on here every day, looking for the latest signs of life in the AmigaOS (be that OS4 screenshots, AmiZilla news, or whatever else), but its just not the same anymore. People keep on debating the same old crap over and over again.
I know how you feel mate, but there are times the community shines through (like the open amiga thread).
Whilst I doubt things will go back to the way they were, I do think there can still be a good future. There are still places like #amiga.org and some mailing lists where you can talk amiga without a full blown arguement erupting. The web forums tend to be more confrontational for some reason, possibly because people hide behind avatars and also conversations are broken and easily misinterpreted.
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As for the update that I just submitted as a new news item (that somehow got turned into a little note tacked onto the head post of this topic - funny and sad how that happens)
Why is it funny or sad? What benefit would having a SECOND STORY linking to the SAME SITE for your humilating auction be? I've posted your text, I've also spoken to them personally and gotten a very interesting response....
It was NOT you (as you are prone to take credit for things which do not pertain to you) who got them to clarify things.... At least not according to them, and as I said, unlike you, they have no reason to lie.
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I hope you didn't format it with Windows or DOS.
After *3* such format, I was still able to recover
some stuff not overwritten, even if it was a "full"
format. Norton's wipe does the job though.
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Actually I have nothing to add but I wanted to be on this big pointless thread before it gets closed. ;-)
I see a lot of blantant malice towards AInc, and a lot of blatant apologists for AInc. Can I just remind every one that the demise of Amiga Incorporated would not damage OS4 in any way, it may mean you could run OS4 on cheaper hardware, and it would not damage the community in any way, apart from inflicting humiliating PR damage from having yet another Amiga-owning company go belly up. In fact, for most of us, the demise of AInc would liberate the Amiga.
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Personally (during last 2 -3 years) I have come to conclusion that less AmigaInc messes with OS4 or AmigaOne the better. And looks like things are movin in right driection.
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why are people so psychotic, zealous and immature as to call up a legit auction company and nag them about amiga.inc's pathetic situation?... why dont you call amiga.inc and ask them about it? after all ... the auction company didnt screw up amiga.inc... amiga.inc screwed up amiga.inc ... and if you contest that then you might also believe the easter bunny is stealing carrots your garden..
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KennyR,
the demise of AInc would liberate the Amiga
How, exactly?
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@Wayne,
I'm sorry. "You can't know the truth because you're not on some restricted list" is a bullshit excuse. Having to create secretive restrictive lists just to promote your own propoganda and call it truth is bullshit.
LOL, you think that's what the SDA list is about? Promoting Amiga Inc propaganda? Man, that's funny! It's a *support* list for those who have signed the SDA! Yeah, we get some "insider" information as a result, but that's because of the nature of our agreement with Amiga Inc, not because Amiga is trying to brainwash us!
Besides, Onno wasn't saying "You cannot know the truth because you are not on some restricted list", what he *was* saying as that, on the SDA list, we have seen *first hand* evidence of some sort of anti Amiga Inc conspiracy. Make of that what you will, but my comment stands.
I can tell you that there are an awful lot of things being said on those lists which are simply not true, and they don't even match the demonstratable facts....
How can you know what is/is not being said on the SDA list? Are you on that list? If not, how can you make such a statement that things being said there "are simply not true"? Or, are you party to someone breaking NDA and forwarding to you info that they have no right to pass on? Please tell us more about your source of knowledge regarding the "lies" that Amiga is telling us on that *private* list.
Amiga Inc cannot say "The Amiga community is very important to us" then immediately turn and say "we will not tell you anything unless you're on our uber-secret list of cheerleader friends because it's none of your business". It just doesn't work that way.
Actually, by setting up the SDA list, Amiga has said (at least to those of us who are willing to seriously develop for the DE) that we *are* very important to them, and they are supporting us as much as they possibly can. Again, let me repeat, the SDA list is not about being an "uber-secret list of cheerleader friends", but about developers, in partnership with Amiga, developing products, being supported by Amiga, and having their products distributed by Amiga.
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:-o .... um .... :-?
.... does this mean I might not get my T-shirt?
Oh, ... maybe I could bid on it!
------------
redfox ... ;-)
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@ghauber
dude, buy a clue.
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the demise of AInc would liberate the Amiga
How, exactly?
Look around.
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Wayne: I'm sorry. "You can't know the truth because you're not on some restricted list" is a bullshit excuse. Having to create secretive restrictive lists just to promote your own propoganda and call it truth is bullshit.
THAT is my biggest problem with Amiga Inc.
Anyone notice that the NDA on www.amigadev.net is dated to 2001? How are you supposed to apply for dev status if they can't even keep their legal documents up to date? Or are NDA's part of the secret list, too?
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@Waccoon,
For the record, to date, I have signed no less than 8 (*YES, EIGHT*) NDA's and SDA's with Amiga Inc, none of which are actually legally binding. None were signed by Bill McEwen in my presence, and none of them were ever notorized in my presence. No validated copies were ever returned to me.
Hell, Anyone in attendance can verify that Bill McEwen was handing them out to everyone at the one of the last Saint Louis shows for God's sake to anyone and everyone who walked by in the hall.
Furthermore, if I can find the box, I've probably got a whole pile of blank ones that were left on the table in the hall after "Fleecy's" 2.5 hour techno-babble-fest about the "conceptual freedom behind DE". If I can find my big folder of these oh-so-important and valuable NDA's, who wants one? Maybe then, when the whole community has signed multiple NDA's and SDA's, Amiga will be honest. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.
Then there were several other times I had made proposals to Amiga Inc for community projects, all of which were torpedoed. There were at least two occassions that I contacted them for developer information and once when I received my SDK.
So.... Tell me all these deep and dark secrets about how Amiga Inc is going to save the universe and how anyone who doesn't agree with them are "immature teenagers" (Paraphrase "Fleecy")....
This conversation gets more and more rediculous by the minute. Those who BELIEVE that they have something to gain by following Amiga Inc are simply not willing at all to listen to even DOCUMENTED and or DEMONSTRATABLE FACTS.
I'd just love to hear what Bill and "Fleecy" are saying about me behind these closed doors.... God only knows what bullshit, or I should say "BillShit" they've concocted since I abandoned the role of head cheerleader to Luca and Mike.
At least when I express my opinion of "Fleecy" and company, I do it in plain daylight. They don't even have the honor to do things face-to-face. Oh, yeah, that's right, they lost any portion of honor when they stopped paying employees and cancelled their health insurance without even bothering to tell them.
All I can say is "Good luck" to the bidders at tomorrow's auction. Enjoy the day at the circus which is what became of Amiga Inc. Bring cash, take home your very own special bit of the dotcom bust.
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@MarkTime
dude, buy a clue.
Thank you for your insightful, well thought out, informative reply. I feel like I have a so much clearer picture on the situation now. You truly have a way with words.
:-D
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It was NOT you (as you are prone to take credit for things which do not pertain to you) who got them to clarify things.... At least not according to them, and as I said, unlike you, they have no reason to lie.
Hogwash. I have an email sitting here (that I will not reveal without checking first with Fleecy) from the auctioneer expressing their apologies for the miscommunication and of their willingness to clarify the things that were added to the auction that did not belong to Amiga.
I don't know where you get your assumptions, but in this case, I have proof that you are wrong.
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I don't know where you get your assumptions, but in this case, I have proof that you are wrong.
You have proof of nothing except that they apologized to Amiga Inc for the screw up. According to them on the telephone, you were by far the least of their issues.
You made one of several dozen requests. They simply responded to yours (I never sent them an e-mail request, so I don't know if they would have similarly responded to me or others. I did call the auction house when you made the claim however)...
You really, really need to learn when to shut up and pick your battles. You are doing a great disservice to your "employer" every time you open your mouth to defend them. As a tenuous friend, I hope that doesn't come back and bite you in the ass personally.
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@Wayne,
Why on earth would you want to sign 8 NDAs and SDAs with Amiga? That is just plain weird. I've signed only one NDA, and only one SDA, and I'm happy. Don't need to sign anything else, as I trust that Amiga will keep their side of the deal, and I certainly don't intend on breaking my side of the deal.
So.... Tell me all these deep and dark secrets about how Amiga Inc is going to save the universe and how anyone who doesn't agree with them are "immature teenagers" (Paraphrase "Fleecy")....
Who says there are any such secrets? Amiga is obviously not in stirling shape at the moment, and even they have acknowledged that they will not become some sort of overnight sensation/phenomenon that will solve all your problems at once. If that's what you are thinking they are promoting, you've taken leave of reality. It's going to be a long, uphill climb, but, assuming Amiga manages to reach the top of the climb (and there's never any guarantee) I think the view from there will be pretty good.
This conversation gets more and more rediculous by the minute. Those who BELIEVE that they have something to gain by following Amiga Inc are simply not willing at all to listen to even DOCUMENTED and or DEMONSTRATABLE FACTS.
There is a proverb in the Bible: "The first to present his case seems right, until someone comes forth to question him" (or something to that effect). Even though various Amiga Inc employees have replied in various forms, Amiga has not formally responded and thus the whole argument so far is rather one-sided. I'm interested to see Amiga's formal response when/if it happens.
I'd just love to hear what Bill and "Fleecy" are saying about me behind these closed doors....
Oh, yes, Bill and Fleecy just can't stop posting stuff about you on all those uber-secret lists full of Amiga Inc cheerleaders. Talk about you all the time. NOT.
If Bill and Fleecy are talking lots about you behind their closed doors, that's ok, they're allowed to do whatever they want in that regard. It's only when they start talking "publically" (on the SDA list or on more public forums like this) that it really matters to you. But, I guess, me telling you that you are not a hot topic of discussion on the various NDA-covered lists might deflate your ego a bit, so please go right on and ignore me if it makes you feel better to believe such things.
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HMetal are you trying to twist things yet again? that email wouldnt refer to the PDA"s and other things that didnt actually 'belong' to amiga.inc but where loaner items?... my guess it does...and you're just trying to twist things again... just my opinon..
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Poster: Wayne Date: 2003/6/16 18:23:28
I mention this specifically to request that site members (of any site reading this), please lay off of the auction company. They are not responsible for the current condition of Amiga Inc and they're only doing their jobs as auctioneers. They have no agenda, and this is not their fault.
Interesting to see those miserable little wanking Amiga Inc supporters are just as pathetic on the phone as they are behind a keyboard.
I wonder how long it's going to be before the first pics of Amiga Inc hardware being sold off to the highest bidder, hits the net. I know, I need to be kind. So how about those who have won your bids in for the Amiga Inc auction please save the shipping cardboard. McEwen maybe needing it as his new house. :->
Dammy
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If Amithlon was an attempt at displacing AROS, are you saying AROS is a commercial product? I thought it was being made FOR FUN, god damnit!
:-P
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@bhogget:
I agree with your timeline, but a totally different one is being presented as "facts" by certain people over at ANN.
Maybe stop by there and tell Alkis how it should be? ;-)
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@olegil
Maybe stop by there and tell Alkis how it should be?
I'd be wasting my breath (or my typing, as it were).
Some people, even when they don't agree with me, are prepared to listen to a reasoned argument. Others quite simply are not.
Of course, I stand to be corrected on anything I wrote in that timeline. It's simply a representation of how I remember things, but I certainly wasn't anywhere near being "in the loop" until at the very end when the Amithlon situation I described happened.
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If Amithlon was an attempt at displacing AROS, are you saying AROS is a commercial product? I thought it was being made FOR FUN, god damnit!
Sure, but Amiga Inc. might have seen that AROS was targeting a Market that they felt they should be making money from.
AROS of course has no commecial incentive, it is simply there because there is demand for it.
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@bloodline
Sure, but Amiga Inc. might have seen that AROS was targeting a Market that they felt they should be making money from.
Some people at Amiga Inc. thought the x86 market should be tapped, others were opposed to the idea.
This has absolutely nothing to do with AROS or Amithlon, or the reason why the latter came into being.
Amithlon negotiations with H&P were going nowhere, so a copy was sent to Amiga Inc. They liked what they saw and wanted to market it straight away, to the extent that they were desperate to demo it at AmiWest only a few days later. Hyperion and Eyetech didn't even know anything about it as there was no time to inform them (and indeed it should have been none of their business anyway). There was no premeditation to any of this, and certainly no plans instigated by anyone at Amiga Inc.
Amithlon was NOT a response to AROS.There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Amiga Inc ever saw AROS as encroaching into a market they should be tapping. None. Why do you persist in suggesting otherwise?
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Amithlon was NOT a response to AROS.There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Amiga Inc ever saw AROS as encroaching into a market they should be tapping. None. Why do you persist in suggesting otherwise?
I'm not say that it !WAS! a response to AROS, but I am saying that it might have been.
You are saying the it wasn't, Fine. (you are stating this as fact)
I'm saying it might. End of story. (I am stating this as my oppinion.)
You are welcome to continue telling me that it wasn't and I will have be happy to say that it might have been :-D
I'm the meantime we are wasting valuble Debating Bandwidth.
I would say argue that without AROS, there was no reson to even view the x86 as a market. PPC was final, Phase5 had decided. :-D
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@Wayne
You have never been more wrong. You'll find that out soon enough.
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You have never been more wrong. You'll find that out soon enough.
With all due respect (if it's really waranted), that has been Amiga Inc's line for how long now? At LEAST 2 years now.
AI:"Just wait, i can't say anything but you will see soon enough!"
In that time all I have seen is 2 WinCE game packs that are getting dusty on CompUSA's shelves. As the saying goes, put up or shut up(just a saying) :-o
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You have never been more wrong. You'll find that out soon enough.
If Amiga Inc. have something amazing up their sleve, then I'm looking forward to being wrong.
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@bloodline
You are saying the it wasn't, Fine. (you are stating this as fact)
I am stating it as fact, yes. Like I said, as far as Amithlon is concerned I was in the loop. I know when it came about, roughly how it came about, who was and who was not involved in bringing it about, and when Amiga Inc got involved. I am indeed stating facts, not opinions. If you have any reason to doubt this, please enlighten the rest of us.
I'm saying it might. End of story. (I am stating this as my oppinion.)
Well, it's an opinion which flies in the face of the facts, so insisting that the opinion is valid can mean only one of two things:
1 - You do not accept my presentation of the facts, presumably because you have evidence to suggest otherwise.
or
2 - Your opinions defy all connection to reality, and you are planning to join Tim Rue and Steve Giovennella in their particularly unique universes.
Are we wasting bandwidth? That depends. Your repeatedly stated "opinion" has the potential to be a rumour starter, and since I know such a rumour would be blatantly false, combating it at the root seems the most efficient way to tackle it.
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Ok. I'm not dismissing your verison of the events. I have accepted this.
But I would still argue that without AROS, there was no reson to even view the x86 as a market. PPC was final, Phase5 had decided.
I personally didn't even think aobut the x86 as a viable option until I went to university and tried AROS. I was still under the impression that my PPC card was by far the more suitable system for the Amiga platform.
But I tried AROS on just a cheap PC and thought wow... that is superior my Amiga.... and thus my cards have been played. this was 5 years ago...
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@Hmetal
I'm wrong about what Ray?
-- Amiga Inc hasn't lied to and abused the community for years?
-- Amiga isn't being evicted and foreclosed?
-- Amiga actually paid their employees and didn't terminate their insurance without notice?
-- Amiga Inc DIDN'T formally file the paperwork through their lawyer to ABANDON the Amiga trademark presumably so that it couldn't be seized by the court as an asset to sell and pay Bolton and others?
-- Amiga DE is actually related to the Amiga?
-- Amiga isn't going to make more meaningless partnership announcements?
Please Ray, feel free to let me know exactly what it is that you think that WE are so wrong about and that you know everything about.... All I ask is that you let us know without all the marketspeak and "Fleecyisms".
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Why on earth would you want to sign 8 NDAs and SDAs with Amiga?
Because every single time I attended a show, or contacted them about something, they had me sign yet another one, claiming that I had not yet signed one.
Don't need to sign anything else, as I trust that Amiga will keep their side of the deal
Therein lies the basic difference. You "trust" them as you personally have no reason to think otherwise (yet). Those of us who do not "trust" him or "Fleecy", have in most cases very much earned our position of now-complete distrust.
-- They aren't paying their employees, Ray and "Fleecy" have constantly twisted that fact.
-- They terminated the medical insurance of employees without even telling them about it.
-- They intentionally petitioned to abandon the trademark (the abandonment paperwork was physically filed by their lawyer). Presumably, they did this to keep it from being seized by the courts as an asset.
-- They were evicted almost A YEAR AGO and continually lied about it. They continue to twist the undeniable facts even today.
-- Their credit rating is far less than even my personal limit, and my personal limit isn't perfect. This means that no real company would invest money in Amiga Inc unless they buy something (not license it).
-- All of their hardware assets have been seized by the landlord for over a year aside from the "laptops" they apparently took home with them. No real work has been done (at least demonstrably) on anything.
-- Their "CTO" doesn't even know enough to answer simple, straight-forward answers regarding their license of the trademarks and patents.
-- Amiga Inc has completely changed directions at least three times in three years.
-- Almost every single partner they've announced has either denounced Amiga Inc later, or abandoned their efforts in AI's direction. This says something major.
-- They based their entire business plan on USING the then-existing base of Amiga developers to develop software for TAO's Intent. Their entire existence before the most recent complete direction change was to be a middle man shareware distributor.
-- Bill McEwen stood on the Podium at Saint Louis in 2000 and declared both the "Amiga as a desktop platform and as an OS is dead". It is only the fact that they are broke now that they have reversed that decision. Luckily Amiga Inc has nothing to do with either OS4 or the AmigaOne outside of "the name".
-- Absolutely nothing has been officially heard from Amiga Inc (Bill "benevolent dictator" McEwen) in almost a whole year.
Should I go on? How much more will it take to convince some of you that Amiga Inc *IS* the problem. I am convinced that the only way the official Amiga platform will survive is to stay as far away as possible from the likes of McEwen and "Fleecy".
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I agree with Wayne... when I first got back into Amiga almost 3 years ago I was interested in a new AmigaOS and a new X86 or PowerPC platform.... I watched the effort go to absolute hell (in my opinon) as a game porting company was to make it (sorry Hyperion I hope you do a good job, but in my most humble opinon game companys should make games not OS's)
then I saw the over-priced amigaone (I think its over priced even for this niche)...
next I saw 'the rom'.....
then of course I saw DE....and figured that they where just trying to milk us like sheep...
out of all that a nice alternative to bieng waffled came in... Genesi, Pegasos and MorphOS :)... its cheaper, the developers are contactable, the ceo is open enough to post in the forums... there is no 'rom'... the OS was made by this very community... and I cant see how that is bad...but moreover it was made by OS developers not game developers... the company overall seems to have future plans..and hasnt tried to 'milk' us all like a bunch of sheep...
in my opinon...if Amiga.inc hadnt been greedy with the 'rom' the higher prices for amigaone, DE(milkware) and generally not waffled around so much back and fourth... we could all have a product now and be happy working toward common goals... I blame amiga.inc squarely for the devide and issues this community has right now... some blame Genesi...well the way I look at it without Genesi alot of people would have left entirely...because amigaos4 isnt done yet, amigaone is very expensive...and DE is a joke
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>Bill McEwen, Millionaire & IPO.
On Summer 2000, Mr Bill McEwen had announced about possibilities of Amiga Inc IPO. I try to ask the CFO to send information to a leading financial group who is the underwriter of major IPOs, including Apple Inc.
Unfortunately the CFO left Amiga in Sept. 2000.
If the IPO went ahead, perhaps Mr Bill McEwen will become a REAL millionaire and Amiga Inc's financial future will be better.
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@asian1
Yeah there would be more foosball tables up for auction :lol:
I'm sorry, can't help myself :roflmao:
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I watched the effort go to absolute hell (in my opinon) as a game porting company was to make it (sorry Hyperion I hope you do a good job, but in my most humble opinon game companys should make games not OS's)
So, i gather you have tried OS4 then? No? So where's the absolute hell then? Yeah, let's bash them before trying what they have done, that is actually more fun, it does not take effort and everyone can do it.
the developers are contactable
Both main OS4 developers are really contactable. But then again, it depends on how you ask the question. If you say: hey guys i think you suck and you should never have started OS4 because you are a games company, then maybe they will not answer, and damn right they don't.
the OS was made by this very community...
So what you are actually saying is that amongst the 30 or so ppl working on OS4, nobody comes from the Amiga community. Sure, they probably all come from pc companies, linux companies or maybe companies making refridgerators, cars,... Good point there
the company overall seems to have future plans..
So you are saying that Hyperion and the OS4 team don't. And may i ask how you know (probably because of direct contact with the developers, right?)
and hasnt tried to 'milk' us all like a bunch of sheep...
Well, i personally haven't paid a single penny for anything OS4 related. So i don't feel 'milked' like a bunch of sheep. And please don't mention that the coupon action had nothing to do with both Eyetech or Hyperion (in fact they were opposed to it). After all, we want to troll, not tell the truth. So in reality, neither eyetech or Hyerpion have asked for a single penny.
amigaos4 isnt done yet,
It is in beta, so is morphos. No secret about that.
I could go on replying to every single other topic you mentioned, but then i thought: why did i even started.
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@meerschaum
imo I prefer game companies porting the OS. Games make the platform. Who better to make a game friendly OS then a game company.
Like it or not if it's not easy to create games we will see no major ports or originals.
Office suites ~shrug~ big deal they are only a small market when it comes to the big picture.
If games weren't such a big market you wouldn't see microsoft hopping in like they did. Seriously what's it tell you they didn't even use thier standard kernel for the XBox it's modified. :-D
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I blame amiga.inc squarely for the devide and issues this community has right now...
Genesi is not to blame, not even AmigaInc, Hyperion,...
People like yourself are to blame for the devide in the community.
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Yeah. Being wrong at this time would actually be a refreshing bit of change, wouldn't it? Come on, people. Doesn't everyone want to be proven wrong just about now? :-P
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@Terminills:
And they've modified their ultra-stable NT system so that games will run better, resulting in a less stable environment. That's a pretty big deal, actually. Especially for a company that makes software targetting office use... :-)
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@olegil
I never claimed it was better over all... Just for games. and the entire point is they wouldn't have bothered had there not been a market for it. Just like the fact they lose money on the XBox's. They do it so they can sell more games. In the end microsoft doesn't target any 1 product anyways. :-D
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@bhogget:
"I'm with you on this one. The ridiculous story by "fleecy" that this is equipment brought in by the auctioneers and is being fraudulently passed off as having belonged to Amiga Inc. (presumably for no other reason than to spread more "FUD" about the company) is so laughable it isn't true."
Might I point you to a quote from the auction site?
" Some items on the main equipment list have been included in the sale from other parties. "
I just can't quite imagine why Amiga Inc would put 35 chairs, computers and 17/21 inch monitors in a 15 (6-8 times 2 cubicles plus 3 offices) people environment. The FACT is that SOME items in the list are NOT from Amiga Inc's office, there's no conspiracy theory about it (other than that "oooh, they had SO much equipment? no wonder they didn't have money".)
Please, _READ_ the links before making up your facts next time, please.
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@olegil
Read links before making up the facts? Surely not.
I mean, you do realise that this whole auction is just one large FUD exercise, don't you? Amiga Inc didn't owe any money at all. The landlord only threw them out and locked the office because he was bribed to do so by Genesi.
Mike Bouma said so, and therefore it must be true. :-o
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I just can't quite imagine why Amiga Inc would put 35 chairs, computers and 17/21 inch monitors in a 15 (6-8 times 2 cubicles plus 3 offices) people environment. The FACT is that SOME items in the list are NOT from Amiga Inc's office, there's no conspiracy theory about it (other than that "oooh, they had SO much equipment? no wonder they didn't have money".)
You completely misread the quote from the auction site. The full quote is:
The following items were identified by Amiga employees as being vendor owned and wereonly used as "loaners". Some items on the main equipment list have been included in the sale from other parties.
So, the reason they clarify that these items are from 3rd parties is because they were loaned to Amiga, and had to be returned. The auction site says NOTHING about these items NOT being in Amiga's office. Please read the links before making up facts? Good advice!!!
I don't follow this stuff religiously, but I do recall that they used to be in bigger offices, and then moved into smaller offices later on (about the time their phone numbers were disconnected and all that). My guess is that they just had the stuff piled up in the corner. It's not like they had enough staff to use it all. :-)
The amount of furniture matches the amount of computers. That says a lot. There's 30-or-so comptuers up for auction, and some servers. Amiga claimed to have 30-or-so employees at one time. Big whoop.
The auction includes a refrigerator. Since when does a fridge become obsolete?
Seriously, I wouldn't bother to verify what's exactly part of the auction. This is already rediculous as it is. All I know is, there's an auction going on, it's happening because Amiga Inc. is in default of rent payment, and Amiga is trying to keep quiet about it. That tells me they are in deep doo-doo. Is this *really* worth debating?
Please, how about debating that lovely interview with Matt about GUI design? GUI's are my forte, and I'd like to talk about that some more. Let this topic die!
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I don't follow this stuff religiously, but I do recall that they used to be in bigger offices, and then moved into smaller offices later on (about the time their phone numbers were disconnected and all that). My guess is that they just had the stuff piled up in the corner. It's not like they had enough staff to use it all.
Just to make this perfectly clear, the auction was held at the offices they told us all about in March 2000, the 10000 sq foot office space they leased. The claim of a move to smaller offices was all make believe after it was pointed out that that they no longer were working at 34935 SE Douglas St, Suite 210. In actuality, in June of 2002 they were locked out by their landlord, their phones were turned off for lack of payment and since early June all "work" by Amiga Inc has been done at the homes of those still working for them. Working being a relative term since they are not being paid, technically most would call them volunteers.
-Tig
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NetVentures (http://www.netventures.nl/ENG/portfolio.htm)
Hello
Netventures also invest in 16 other companies beside Amiga Inc. If they know about the poor financial situation at Amiga Inc and threat of eviction, I guess they can discontinue the rent and move the Amiga Inc assets to their own office or one of the other related companies. Perhaps NetVentures can help establish a temporary office for Amiga Inc. This will prevent the embarassing auction and preseve the remaining assets.
By going public, perhaps Amiga will have better financial support and I am sure that one of the financial companies can provide a temporary office space.
If they REALLY move to Netherland, perhaps Amiga Inc executives & managers will use bicycle, instead of cars (ie similar to Bolten Peck!) :-)
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@Wayne,
First up, I'd like to apologise to you for the tone of my previous posts. While I still stand by the content of my posts, I am not proud of some of the ways I presented that content in a less than respectable manner, and thus ask forgiveness for the ungraceful manner of those comments. I also note that you have replied a bit more graciously to me, and thank you for your conciliatory manner.
I'd like to make a few comments on your last post to me, still. Hopefully I'll do it a bit nicer this time :)
Therein lies the basic difference. You "trust" them as you personally have no reason to think otherwise (yet). Those of us who do not "trust" him or "Fleecy", have in most cases very much earned our position of now-complete distrust.
Yes, I trust them. I've had an ongoing relationship with Amiga for close to 3 years now, since I bought the original Linux SDK. I've released one product through the Amiga web shop, I've got a rewrite of that product nearly ready to go, and another game nearly ready to go too. I've worked on one short contract for Amiga Inc last year. I've had extensive contact with Fleecy via email, and other Amiga Inc employees too via email and IRC (Hi Jonas! and the rest of the gang on #developer!). They have always been courteous and polite with me, given me most of the info that I've asked for (there have been exceptions, and I understand those exceptions). I've had way more support in terms of developing for the DE than I would have expected.
Yes, it hasn't exactly been smooth sailing. Sales of DE related products has quite obviously not been what was initially expected, but there are quite sound and logical reasons for that. The loss of the Sharp Zaurus deal, the loss of the Nokia Media Terminal deal, the loss of the Sendo deal, had nothing to do with Amiga in any of those cases, and everything to do with forces outside of Amiga's control. That's just the way things work. Disappointing? You betcha. Lies from Fleecy and co? No.
Yeah, in the beginning it was a picture of rosy optimism, etc, from Fleecy and the whole gang at Amiga. They had every reason to be optimistic. Yes, they made mistakes here and there, too. Who doesn't? Fact is, things didn't work out the way it was planned initially. Stuff happens. That's life.
The interesting thing, though, and this is what all who'd like to see Amiga Inc go down have to deal with, is that Amiga Inc is still in existence. And they've managed to deliver on some of their projects (e.g. the deal with Microsoft), despite the huge constraints they've been working under. Doesn't that say something to you?
Yes, bad things have happened, but the bad things I've seen have not in any way reflected badly (in my opinion) on the character of people like Fleecy, Ray, Bill McEwen, Gary Peake. They are flawed human beings, just like you and I, but all these guys have *earned* my trust by their actions and dealings with me.
-- They aren't paying their employees, Ray and "Fleecy" have constantly twisted that fact.
I have not read every posting these guys have made, but my impression is that their answers have been along the lines of "that's none of your business" in regards to questions like that. I agree with them. You may not, but that's ok.
-- They terminated the medical insurance of employees without even telling them about it.
I take it you are referring to Bolton's case? I'm not convinced that all the facts on this issue are out yet, but that's just one thing we'll have to wait and see about. To me, this is a minor issue compared ot other issues I am aware of, so it doesn't factor in to my "trust factor".
-- They intentionally petitioned to abandon the trademark (the abandonment paperwork was physically filed by their lawyer). Presumably, they did this to keep it from being seized by the courts as an asset.
We don't know *why* the trademark was abandoned. Your speculation is only one interpretation, and not a necessary conclusion from the evidence at hand.
-- They were evicted almost A YEAR AGO and continually lied about it. They continue to twist the undeniable facts even today.
Again, there is more to the story, and because Amiga has chosen not to reveal that side of the story, what little they have said has been very easy to take out of context and assume it is their entire "defence" regarding the issue.
-- Their credit rating is far less than even my personal limit, and my personal limit isn't perfect. This means that no real company would invest money in Amiga Inc unless they buy something (not license it).
I don't know about the credit rating, but I strongly beg to differ regarding your conclusion. However, the proof is in the pudding, and I think that it's pretty clear that unless things turn around financially, it would be extremely difficult (or impossible) for Amiga to survive. Everyone will just have to wait and see on this one, I'm afraid. But again, I am quite confident here, and I believe I have good reason to be (no, sorry, before you ask, I can't share with you why I believe I have good reason, just take it as my opinion and put what little value on it you wish).
-- All of their hardware assets have been seized by the landlord for over a year aside from the "laptops" they apparently took home with them. No real work has been done (at least demonstrably) on anything.
The people working for amiga still have hardware, or whatever is necessary to keep things going. After all, what are the Amiga Inc employees (like the ami2d team, for example) developing on? How is it that Amiga still has a corporate website? How is it that they've managed to release 2 pocket paks recently through Microsoft? How is it that we (on the SDA list, yeah, I know, that "private" list, so there's no proof...) have received several updates to various Amiga APIs? How is it that a company like ZeoNeo can continue to produce the quality stuff they are working on?
-- Their "CTO" doesn't even know enough to answer simple, straight-forward answers regarding their license of the trademarks and patents.
Or, he has chosen not to comment on legal-related issues, because that is not his domain?
-- Amiga Inc has completely changed directions at least three times in three years.
Not from where I've been sitting, they haven't. Changed direction only once that I can see - when they decided to reverse their decision to abandon the AmigaOS and further develop it after all. This was also in the context of a changing role for the DE. I haven't seen any other major change of direction. Care to elaborate on what the other two complete changes are?
-- Almost every single partner they've announced has either denounced Amiga Inc later, or abandoned their efforts in AI's direction. This says something major.
What is says is that Amiga has had a run of extremely bad luck. I think that history *clearly* shows that the various deals (and I'm sure you are referring to the Zaurus, Nokia Media Terminal and Sendo Smartphone, or are you referring to other partners?) fell apart *not* to do with Amiga but with other issues. Change of management/direction within Sharp for the Zaurus. Cancellation of the Media Terminal project. Sendo having a falling-out with Microsoft. Surely you can't blame any of those on Amiga?
-- They based their entire business plan on USING the then-existing base of Amiga developers to develop software for TAO's Intent. Their entire existence before the most recent complete direction change was to be a middle man shareware distributor.
Yes, of course they depended on a large developer community (obviously to be drawn from teh existing Amiga developer community mostly) to produce software for their new platform, otherwise the DE would definitely fail if there was no software for it. As to "middle man shareware distributor", their distribution of software is only a part of their business. They are behind the scenes of AOS4 (and will have a much more active role in future versions of the OS). They have also done quite a lot of work (considering the circumstances) on the DE.
-- Bill McEwen stood on the Podium at Saint Louis in 2000 and declared both the "Amiga as a desktop platform and as an OS is dead". It is only the fact that they are broke now that they have reversed that decision. Luckily Amiga Inc has nothing to do with either OS4 or the AmigaOne outside of "the name".
Yep, that's the change of direction mentioned earlier. As to when they "reversed" direction, it was a long time ago, as public records clearly attest, and it was clearly announced. And, Amiga Inc has more to do with OS4 than I think you realise.
-- Absolutely nothing has been officially heard from Amiga Inc (Bill "benevolent dictator" McEwen) in almost a whole year.
True, Bill has been very quiet (publically), but I don't see that as a great problem, really. He's learned his lesson of announcing stuff to early, now he seems to be only discussion stuff when he has something concrete to discuss. I think that is a good strategy for him to take.
Should I go on?
No, you don't need to. It is clear that we have different interpretations of what's been going on. I don't think either of us will easily persuade the other.
How much more will it take to convince some of you that Amiga Inc *IS* the problem
Hmm.. not sure, really, but I'll let you know if I change my mind about all this. Right now, I don't see that happening, though.
I am convinced that the only way the official Amiga platform will survive is to stay as far away as possible from the likes of McEwen and "Fleecy".
I'm convinced of the opposite. From bits I've picked up from public postings, from private conversations I've had with Amiga Inc people, I'm quite happy with the direction they wish to take the official Amiga platform, and I am still very excited about the potential of the DE.
That's my take on things. It's just how I see things right now. As always, I reserve the right to alter my opinions at any time and without notice :-D
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True, Bill has been very quiet (publically), but I don't see that as a great problem, really. He's learned his lesson of announcing stuff to early, now he seems to be only discussion stuff when he has something concrete to discuss. I think that is a good strategy for him to take.
May I interpret this to mean that Amiga Inc. have made no concrete business deals and have had no concrete business strategy for just over a year?
Since they have not made any announcments... this is the most logical conclution (using your own reasoning) and one that most people here have drawn and is what we are all worried about, WRT Amiga Inc....
Why, may I ask, so people keep saying "Amiga Inc. are doing lots of work on the AmigaOS4, behind the scenes"... We are talking about an OS...! What exactly can they do that is not visible?
Ok, you don't seem to be willing or able to tell me what A Inc. do "behind the scenes", but give me an idea of what such a phrase might cover.
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May I interpret this to mean that Amiga Inc. have made no concrete business deals and have had no concrete business strategy for just over a year?
The Microsoft Pocket Paks thing happened in the last year. This was announced and publicised. You can buy these game packs from CompUSA.
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May I interpret this to mean that Amiga Inc. have made no concrete business deals and have had no concrete business strategy for just over a year?
No you may not.
Since they have not made any announcments... this is the most logical conclution (using your own reasoning) and one that most people here have drawn and is what we are all worried about, WRT Amiga Inc....
I don't even remember McEwen to announce the Microsoft deal, but it is a deal, which was made public somehow and which did get products into the store.
Why are you so keen on attacking people with the way they word stuff. I speak to Gabriel very frequently, since we're developing stuff together. He is one of the most sincere people I know and I have no reason to doubt whatever he is saying.
He has a lot of private discussions with Fleecy and knows a lot of what's going on at Amiga Inc. (a whole lot more than I do). I personally don't know what Amiga Inc. is doing behind the scenes of AOS4 and I never bothered to ask. Gabriel probably did.
It is really getting ridicilous how much people here are trying to turn everything into information that suits themselves better.
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Oops... I seem to have hit a nerve, I must being closer...
Which nicely answers your question, why do I ask difficult questions... No, I attack none, put simply, I want the Truth :-)
I'm fed up of being lied to all the time. I want to know whats going on.
Deal with M$, big deal (excuse the pun)... Amiga Acting as a middle man for Tao.. how much have they shipped then? No don't worry, I will state this is personal oppinion and not fact... happy?
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Hello
Netventures also invest in 16 other companies beside Amiga Inc. If they know about the poor financial situation at Amiga Inc and threat of eviction, I guess they can discontinue the rent and move the Amiga Inc assets to their own office or one of the other related companies. Perhaps NetVentures can help establish a temporary office for Amiga Inc. This will prevent the embarassing auction and preseve the remaining assets
I realize English is probably not your first language, but understand what has really happened. Last year in June of 2002, Amiga Inc was locked out of their offices after not paying there rent for a substantial amount of time. This year (in fact yesterday) all of the contents of that office were auctioned off, the fact Netventures (which now owns 50% of the company according to McEwen) did nothing to stop the auction yesterday, and has done nothing to pay the creditors (of which there are many) should not give anyone a warm fuzzy that they are going to save Amiga Inc.
-Tig
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Sure, NETventures have probably even written Amiga Inc. off...
I'm not surpirsed with Amiga Inc being so secretive... All this "we're doing lots of things", and there's a who bunch of stuff going on behind the scenes.. blah blah blah...
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Oops... I seem to have hit a nerve, I must being closer...
Not really.
Which nicely answers your question, why do I ask difficult questions... No, I attack none, put simply, I want the Truth
If you were replying to me then again this is not what I said and another 'interpretation' of my words. That was just what I was asking you, why do you keep on twisting people's word to make it more to your liking? You twisted Gabriel's word into your own interpretation, which we simple proved wrong by pointing out a deal that has been made public.
I'm fed up of being lied to all the time. I want to know whats going on.
Then maybe you shouldn't be reading public forums. I haven't lied to you and I also said Gabriel was not lying. You are manipulating this discussion and are basically saying that both Gabriel and I are telling you lies.
The fact that you don't considder the M$ deal to be worthwhile doesn't make it any more true and is still valid for proving your 'interpretation' wrong. And after all.. you _were_ asking if you could interpret those words as meaning something they didn't. Don't get upset if the answer is not to your liking. The M$ deal is a big deal to us.
Regards,
Onno
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I'm not surpirsed with Amiga Inc being so secretive... All this "we're doing lots of things", and there's a who bunch of stuff going on behind the scenes.. blah blah blah...
You sure enjoy this, don't you?
What company doesn't do work behind the scenes to get something done before the competition jumps onto it? I've never worked for or with a company that isn't developing stuff behind the scenes.
It doesn't help how many people would tell you they are seeing the results of the work Amiga Inc. is doing. I know you love open source and I applaud you on your efforts for Aros, I really think it is a very worthwhile effort, but not everything in this world is open source, no matter how much you want it to be.
There's not much point in discussing these things like this, because you will simply not accept what I say untill you see it with your own eyes. There's nothing wrong with that, I am usually like that as well. The big difference is that I admit I'm wrong if I'm proven wrong and you stick to your opinion even if it is flawed (as in your discussion earlier with bhoggett).
Regards,
Onno
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Yes, bad things have happened, but the bad things I've seen have not in any way reflected badly (in my opinion) on the character of people like Fleecy, Ray, Bill McEwen, Gary Peake. They are flawed human beings, just like you and I, but all these guys have *earned* my trust by their actions and dealings with me.
I am continually amazed by people posting this, Bill McEwen went to Amiwest last year, after being locked out of his offices, after not paying his employees, and told everyone that everything was just great at Amiga Inc, that the rumors about lockouts, layoffs and debts were all drivel spread by anti amigans. Months after the lockout Fleecy was still saying it didnt happen, and that it was all a lie spread by H&P (remember before Genesei was the great Evil spreading lies, that position was held by H&P). I don't know how people continually lying to you about their company cannot reflect badly on their character. Doesnt it bother you that the great T-Shirt/Coupon scam didnt exist until they lost their office??
They aren't paying their employees, Ray and "Fleecy" have constantly twisted that fact.
I have not read every posting these guys have made, but my impression is that their answers have been along the lines of "that's none of your business" in regards to questions like that. I agree with them. You may not, but that's ok.
Actually they have pretty much confessed to not being paid now, and frankly it is Bolten's business, since Mr McEwen said they were not even paying salaries to his employees as one of the reasons they couldnt pay Bolten his settlement. If McEwen is lying about paying Fleecy, Ray etc, thats information the creditors have the right to know. If they didn't want to share that info, they shouldnt have defaulted on the judgements against them.
They terminated the medical insurance of employees without even telling them about it.
I take it you are referring to Bolton's case? I'm not convinced that all the facts on this issue are out yet, but that's just one thing we'll have to wait and see about. To me, this is a minor issue compared ot other issues I am aware of, so it doesn't factor in to my "trust factor".
If Bill McEwen had done this in my state, he would be the girlfriend of big guy named Bubba right now, its a felony here, so I'm not sure how you can say committing what many states consider a felony against a number of your employees (Bolten is not the only person this was done to, hes not even the only employee thats sued them about it) doesnt affect your trust of the person.
They were evicted almost A YEAR AGO and continually lied about it. They continue to twist the undeniable facts even today.
Again, there is more to the story, and because Amiga has chosen not to reveal that side of the story, what little they have said has been very easy to take out of context and assume it is their entire "defence" regarding the issue.
Since they moved into their offices in March of 2000, the owner of the property had to take them to court twice over them not paying their rent (thats in the public record, check it out). The first case they show up with a big check and got out of it, for the last year they have been locked out and havent been able to come up with the amount owed to the lender, despite scamming 65K from the Amiga Community during that same time, yesterday all of Amiga Incs possessions at the office were auctioned off to pay down that debt. There isnt alot of other stuff to tell, its like it is at your house, if you dont pay the rent/mortgage, eventually they kick you out and sell your stuff.
-Tig
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>Netventures don't care about Amiga Inc
Hello
Perhaps there is a different values in some Asian financial groups. They will provide better support their subsidiaries (financial, tools, equipments, facility etc). See CSK group (JAPAN) support for Ravisent and Frank Wilde (former Ravisent CEO and former AMIGA INC Chairman), although Ravisent NEVER make any profit for 2 years.
When one of their subsidiaries collapse / have to fire employees, usually they have a database / information / list of good employees / staff. The good employees may be transferred to other companies / subsidiaries.
Beside "Saving face / reputation", providing temporary office may reduce the debt (office rental charge) and preserve the value of the asset. Perhaps the remaining Amiga Inc assets can be transferred / sold to other subsidiaries.
BTW is there any update news on the auction?
Which items are unsold?
Which item got the highest bid?
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To all: I accuse no one on this site of lying. But I will not support a company that does not give a straight answer when asked simple question, full stop.
Maybe I should not be here asking these questions, as you say, but until Wayne bans me from this site I will continue to use it to express my views and to try and peice together the truth about a company which I see as having made far too many mistakes.
Noticed something funny:
"Amiga Inc is not going out of business. This is not an auction of Amiga as a corporate entity. This sale is being conducted for property management of office assets only."
This is kinda like saying:
"You are not homeless, you just don't have anywhere to live."
:-D
-Edit- I find it funny that I'm being accused of twisting words when all I'm doing is clarifying (or attempting to clarify) unsubstantiated statements made in Amiga Inc. favour.
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Poster: Tigger Date: 2003/6/18 12:02:38
I realize English is probably not your first language, but understand what has really happened. Last year in June of 2002, Amiga Inc was locked out of their offices after not paying there rent for a substantial amount of time. This year (in fact yesterday) all of the contents of that office were auctioned off, the fact Netventures (which now owns 50% of the company according to McEwen) did nothing to stop the auction yesterday, and has done nothing to pay the creditors (of which there are many) should not give anyone a warm fuzzy that they are going to save Amiga Inc.
That's interesting because Gary Peake says NV does not own 50%, or anywhere where near it, nor have they. So who's telling the truth? I wish Wayne would hurry up and get the significant portions of the Depo online for us. =)
Dammy
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-Edit- I find it funny that I'm being accused of twisting words when all I'm doing is clarifying (or attempting to clarify) unsubstantiated statements made in Amiga Inc. favour.
Well.. you were and you weren't :-D
You were twisting my words and those of Gabriel and you weren't clarifying anything.
You were wrong, we told you so.
And I also didn't say you shouldn't be here to ask questions. Everyone should be able to. But you said you were sick of being told lies. Well.. public forums are full of 'm.
You say you won't support a company that won't give a straight answer to a simple question? That's fine. Everyone has to decide what they want to do and who they want to support and which products (if any) they are going to purchase. It's just a problem when people extract wrong information from what was said and spread those rumours. (Note: Not just rumours about Amiga Inc. I've seen the same things happening to MOS/Pegasos as well. I just don't step in there myself, because I don't know much about it and don't have any facts and I think it's wisest to not talk about it at all then- no use in starting flamewars, FUD and rumours).
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@bloodline
First, you said this:
May I interpret this to mean that Amiga Inc. have made no concrete business deals and have had no concrete business strategy for just over a year?
And then, after I pointed out the publically known MS deal, you said this:
Deal with M$, big deal (excuse the pun)... Amiga Acting as a middle man for Tao.. how much have they shipped then? No don't worry, I will state this is personal oppinion and not fact... happy?
Such a response says to me that you really are not interested in the facts. You can't jump up and down about some "problem" as if it was something significant, and then when it is pointed out that you are incorrect about the "problem" then say that you really don't care anyway, *then* you deflect to another "problem" (stating that Amiga is just "a middleman for Tao") and expect people to take your questions seriously in the future.
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@Tigger,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm curious about the following:
I am continually amazed by people posting this, Bill McEwen went to Amiwest last year, after being locked out of his offices, after not paying his employees, and told everyone that everything was just great at Amiga Inc, that the rumors about lockouts, layoffs and debts were all drivel spread by anti amigans. Months after the lockout Fleecy was still saying it didnt happen, and that it was all a lie spread by H&P (remember before Genesei was the great Evil spreading lies, that position was held by H&P
Would you be able to provide the following to back up your claims and interpretation? 1. A timeline of when the lockout happened and when the various comments you referring to were made? 2. Exact quotes of the comments made, and/or links to where those comments were made?
Doesnt it bother you that the great T-Shirt/Coupon scam didnt exist until they lost their office??
Personally, I don't think that the Club Amiga thing was handled very well, seems like they acted on impulse and hadn't really thought it out thoroughly before posting it to the world. However, I do not think it had anything to do with being locked out of their offices, and I certainly don't believe it was meant to be a scam. I am quite sure that the Club Amiga thing is a serious, ongoing committment by Amiga, and people *will* (eventually) see their T-shirts. If they *did* do it on order to pay the landlord, then why didn't they pay the landlord and be done with it, or was their debt larger than the estimated $65K that came from the coupon thing?
Regarding your other points, they are interesting, but not as interesting as what I've discussed above. I'm mostly interested in the links/timeline/quotes/etc needed to back up your claims regarding the "lying" that you claim people like Fleecy et al engaged in.
Thanks,
Gabriel
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You were wrong, we told you so.
Ok, I'm wrong. Now tell me what they have been up to behind the scenes so You can relly make me look like an idiot.
I have no problem with looking like an idiot, I do it all the time.
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Ok, I'm wrong. Now tell me what they have been up to behind the scenes so You can relly make me look like an idiot.
Since you are replying to me I'll just quote my earlier remark here, since it is hard to find anything back in all this text (well over 180 replies already) :-o
I personally don't know what Amiga Inc. is doing behind the scenes of AOS4 and I never bothered to ask. Gabriel probably did.
I only know some of the stuff that's going on behind the scenes with regard to Amiga-Anywhere. But since I'm under NDA I cannot tell you very much. I can tell you Amiga Inc. has released a lot of addons to intent and are really actively working on it. Examples of this kind of addons they created that were already publically mentioned are things like their Amiga-Anywhere environment itself, the packager to package your application and data up into .ami-files, ami2d (which gives us things like sprites, scaling, rotating, indexed bitmaps and lots more), amidb, a full datatype system, including working datatypes for images and movies.
People saying intent has nothing to do with the classic Amiga are mostly right in my opinion. Amiga Inc. is making it more Amiga-like though and they are doing a very good job at it.
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@Waccoon:
Let's just agree to disagree. I don't read it that way. It clearly says "some items in the main list have been included in the sale from other parties", and to me that means there's things in there that doesn't come from Amiga Inc.
It's referring to the main list, because these are items NOT listed by the "The following items were identified by Amiga employees as being vendor owned and wereonly used as "loaners"" list. If you get my drift.
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Would you be able to provide the following to back up your claims and interpretation? 1. A timeline of when the lockout happened and when the various comments you referring to were made? 2. Exact quotes of the comments made, and/or links to where those comments were made?
A small part of the master timeline:
June 6, 2002 - The Lockout
June 23, 2002 - Buy a coupon get a T-Shirt, get a chance at winning a free Amiga One (See Executive Update)
July 1, 2002 - CAM Scam begins (see the updated Executive Update)
July 27-28 - Amiwest 2002 - The threats, the giveaways, the promises, listen to the Audio, read the transcript, its pretty fascinating
Oct 2002 - The phones, in a thread even you were involved in Gabriel, we are told the phone situation is a non issue as is the offices, its all made up. Heres just one of the threads:
Amiga Inc Phones Gone (http://amiga.org/forums/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=3797&forum=1&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0)
Dont you find it interesting that 8 months after this thread started, the same people are still saying they know from their secret lists, that this is all a non-issue??? Why do the people on the secret lists not know about the phones going away, the office going away, the auction, the lawsuits, etc before those of us not on the list, yet believe the "secret" reasons this stuff happens that they are not allowed to share thats posted after it becomes public knowledge the event occurred. Just FYI, I'm willing to wager that I post about the Amiga Inc bankruptcy before the secret list tells you it happens, they will have a reason for that, they'll say its a legal issue or something (not true) but the info will be on ann, amiga.org and moobunny before its shows on your NDA list. Something a professionally run company would not do.
-Tig
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@Tigger,
Thanks. Looking into it a bit more. Didn't see anything in the thread you linked or the other thread where I posted, where Amiga gave any reply to the lock-out "rumours" (which turned out to be fact).
Haven't yet had a chance to listen to the Amiwest speeches or read the transcript. I also forget where they are - could you provide a link?
Regarding my own post in the above-mentioned thread, did you read what I wrote? Never did I say that it was all lies. All I said is that regardless of what the truth of the matter was, Amiga was (and still is, btw) in business, and that is (to me) the important thing.
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@Tigger,
Thanks. Looking into it a bit more. Didn't see anything in the thread you linked or the other thread where I posted, where Amiga gave any reply to the lock-out "rumours" (which turned out to be fact).
There are several threads on the subject there, though frankly they talk about it on the Amiwest stuff as well.
Haven't yet had a chance to listen to the Amiwest speeches or read the transcript. I also forget where they are - could you provide a link?
Sure
Amiwest Transcripts (http://boing.net/amiwest/)
Or use Google and find an alternate site.
-Tig