Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: System on March 09, 2003, 06:01:35 PM
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Directly from the TerraSoft Web site:
"Many of you have enthusiastically and patiently awaited the delivery of MAI Logic's Teron motherboards on which Terra Soft's Boxer ATX systems will be built. We have removed the Teron-based systems from our online Store until further notice in order to reduce further confusion and false expectations. We promise to bring this product to market as soon as possible." --Terra Soft Team
Read the original
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/store/index.php?submit=hardware&submitimg[hardware][boxer]=1
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This bodes poorly for all sides.
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You can say that again.
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I am not sure what I shall read off this.
I mean, should I care or not ??
But it can't be good news.
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Yep another who should wait untill they have
the product before selling to end users.
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Well there is some sort of hardware problem or manufacturing problem
OR
Eyetech bought the whole batch to fullfill the preorder demand of the AOne. :-) :-) :-)
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You know that Terrasoft is the primary resale channel for the Terons, right? That means they get them first.
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It's news and related to Amiga.. And what it is depends a lot how much you want to have that or any similar product. To me it's interesting news item, and part of bigger picture around Mai, but nothing to lose my nights sleep.
:-P
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Someone please remind me why the PPC architecture has been single-sourced with no contingency plans.
For every hoop that Genesi, Eyetech and Terra Soft have had to jump through there are dozens of low cost x86 motherboards out there.
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Someone please remind me why the PPC architecture has been single-sourced with no contingency plans.
Genesi has a contingency plan, which they're implimenting, the Pegasos II using Marvell's northbridge.
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:-o
Thats just fab.
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You know that Terrasoft is the primary resale channel for the Terons, right? That means they get them first.
And then send them straight to Eyetech :hammer: :roflmao:
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The reason why Terrasoft shelved the products has nothing to do with the hardware and everything with money.
I'm not sure what I can reveal here so I'll leave it to Eyetech.
Needless to say Seehund would have a field-day when the real reason is revealed.
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Needless to say Seehund would have a field-day when the real reason is revealed.
ah crap :-o :-P
/me prays for not another holier than thou lecture :-D
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Smells a little like "Bugfix" to me :-)
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I wish people would work on their reading skills a bit before drawing conclusions. Nowhere in the statement is the word "cancelled" , or any synonym thereof, used.
It talks of the Teron as the mobo on which the boxer will be (not "was to have been") based. Neither past tense nor conditional. So we may not conclude the shelving of a project. We may conclude probable unforeseen delays occuring to push back expected delivery dates to either:
(a) a date which cannot as yet be ascertained;
(b) a date incompatible with the current taking of pre-orders according to the legislation of the country in question. In the UK, for example, delivery must occur within 28 days of the order being passed. It is quite possible that similar legislation exists in the US.
I would suspect a small technical hitch.
Since we are afforded no further detail, any further speculation is pointless.
Incidentally, Terrasoft is not delivering to Eyetech, nor vice versa. They are both direct customers of MAI. The text on the website makes this quite clear.
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like I said..... ....
[color=FF0000]x86!!!![/color][/b]
there are no Guarantee's with out it!
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@downix
A contingency plan that comes into effect (officially) 4q 2003 (reality) 2q2004.....
None of us are exactly rocking now are we?
Regards
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I thing it's more like all boats have stalled their engines and are drifting.
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@skyraker
You ain't seen nothing yet.
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"I'm not sure what I can reveal here so I'll leave it to Eyetech."
Here is to hoping that we will hear from them soon.
Thanks,
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Message deleted because it violates one or more of our posting guidelines, specifically relating to trolling
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I think Skyraker was referring to the lenght of time til we see anything new Pegasoswise, not what features it may have.
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Remember, Amiga got entangled in all this because PowerPC is a totally supirior architecture! Really!
I just bought myself an Athlon 2600+ and an nForce2 motherboard. This thing is the most amazing machine you can get for $350.
Of course, Windows decided it wasn't going to let me "pirate" the OS onto another motherboard, so it refused to boot up. It took me friggin' nine hours to re-install everything.
Dammit. Amiga + x86 - Windows = Problem Solved. What's so hard to understand about that?!
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Hmmmm....this would seem even greater reason to allow
OS4 for other platforms 'legally'...Mac, Pegasos...eventually
x86...get it "out there"... :)
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Of course, Windows decided it wasn't going to let me "pirate" the OS onto another motherboard, so it refused to boot up. It took me friggin' nine hours to re-install everything.
Well that's obvious isn't it. If the motherboard is significantly different then what you had before, Windows doesn't understand this change and tries to run with wrong drivers.
Then it goes wrong!!
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Needless to say Seehund would have a field-day when the real reason is revealed.
How should I interpret this ??
If I look in my English to Dutch dictionary I see this can have severall meanings that could be in favor of Seehund and also not.
So what is the most common explanation of this term??
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Dictionary.com: field day (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=field+day&r=3)
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Let's just say that Seehund might find out that Hyperion/Amiga/Eyetech are not the only ones wanting to charge money for the privilege of running an operating system.
At least we only want to charge A1 users and our OS is proprietary and developed by ourselves.
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Let's just say that Seehund might find out that Hyperion/Amiga/Eyetech are not the only ones wanting to charge money for the privilege of running an operating system.
Well duh! Is this Obvious Day? :)
The problem is not wanting to be payed for the software one sells. I thought everyone agreed on this much at least. The problem is IMO how one expects to sell as many copies of the software as possible, and inventing an "Amiga hardware" market for third party hardware that has nothing to do with the company|ies publishing/making AmigaOS, and making sales of AmigaOS dependent on such a thing, and that unlike Windows, AmigaOS is not a commercially attractive enough OS for hardware vendors to even consider getting a license - with all the prerequisites there are for that - only to be "allowed" to compete on such a miniscule, restricted and saturated "market".
At least we only want to charge A1 users and our OS is proprietary and developed by ourselves.
(It would of course be better if you only wanted to charge AmigaOS users regardless of whom they buy their hardware from, but I think I've said that before... ;) )
So why did you write that? Does TSS want to charge YDL users of other hardware than Teron boards, or what?
Field day? Yeah, you'll hear an I-told-you-so or two ;) but Schadenfreude (that word is used in English too, right?) isn't my cup of tea, at least not when it would be because of bad things happening to something I wish to be successful - AmigaOS.
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Dammit. Amiga + x86 - Windows = Problem Solved. What's so hard to understand about that?!
And make the Amiga just another PC? *shudder* You might as well tell all your developers to f'k off now, since the Pegasos would get the prime pick of them anyway. What's hard to understand about the fact many people just won't use x86 machines?
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I meant to say that you'll discover that we're not the only "bad guys" in your eyes.
Let's face it, AmigaOS is a proprietary OS developed by Hyperion.
Only people who specifically want AmigaOS will need to pay for it.
Linux is GPL and charging everyone who owns a board capable of running it (even when they have zero intrest in doing so) through the producer of the boards is well, insane.
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Linux is free, no one can charge you for it. Anyone who tries to, deserves to fail.
Who/what is Seehund?
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Ahh ok, I figured out who Seehund is. Some guy on ANN.lu.
(I hardly use these forums :-) )
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HyperionMP:
TSS is a VAR/distributor for the Teron boards, right?
TSS sells the Teron boards including a pre-installed, retail version of the supported YDL distro, right?
TSS charges for these bundled copies, just as they charge for separately sold copies of the distro, right?
What do you mean with "charging through the producer of the boards"? "Capable of running it"? Surely you mean every board shipped with the supported retail YDL distro?
That sounds like Mai, not TSS alone, has decided for YDL as the default distro to be sold with all Teron boards (instead of like before TurboLinux or whatever it was from the beginning), and if these are retail copies supported by TSS (i.e. equal to if you bought a copy of YDL, not downloaded the "unsupported" ISOs). TSS can't force anyone to ship the "commercial" YDL distro with any hardware on their own. Mai could just as well have decided to ship the boards with YDL (or any other distro) for free and unsupported by TSS. I see no "bad guy" tendencies on TSS' part (nor on Hyperion's part, for that matter).
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> Who/what is Seehund?
The Pinnipaedia family and a mini-submarine. :)
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> Only people who specifically want AmigaOS will need to pay for it.
The bummer for AmigaOS's and prospective users' sake is that only people who already own an Amiga and a PPC board or people interested in a simultaneous purchase of a Teron board sold only via Eyetech can pay for it...
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>What do you mean with "charging through the producer >of the boards"? "Capable of running it"? Surely you >mean every board shipped with the supported retail YDL >distro?
No, I mean EVERY BOARD capable of running it including the A1 and regardless of whether or not they are actually shipping with YDL or not.
Call it a "Linux tax" if you like.
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........
I want my new Amy :-(
........
I can't wait anymore :-(
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I can't wait anymore
Cancel your order.
Does anyone know if Eyetech are still selling SE's and are people taking delivery of them.
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see here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=278) for a very good reason as to the delays. I believe it will be worth waiting for. I suspect Eyetech to follow this up in a few days with a lowdown on what's happening and a revised timetable.
-john
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Yep.. Looks good on paper, and has apparently caused 2-3 weeks of delays with no information beforehand. I really wish these companies someday learn to make decent announcements in time. Ah well.. it's their product.
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No, I mean EVERY BOARD capable of running it including the A1 and regardless of whether or not they are actually shipping with YDL or not.
So, was I right in assuming that Mai and TSS have an agreement to make YDL the "default distro" of the Teron boards? That would be like Hyperion and Mai have an agreement to make the open source U-Boot with your modifications the default Teron firmware for which you (hopefully) get payed by Mai (i.e. a cost included in the producer's hardware price) regardless of whether some distributor decides to ship their boards pre-flashed with another firmware.
In what instances are you saying that the boards would not be shipped with YDL (if the assumption above is correct) yet have it included in the price? Wouldn't that require the decision of a distributor (other than TSS - i.e. currently Mai themselves, Inguard, and Eyetech AFAIK) to not supply their end-customers with YDL, which the distributors have already payed for? I can't find what distro Eyetech plans to ship (they keep referring to "LinuxPPC" which is an ancient distro, but I assume they simply mean "some PPC Linux distro").
I have a hard time being upset about this, really. Mai, like e.g. Apple and Genesi, would apparently have decided to include one particular OS in the price of their own hardware. So the Terons would have become more like "YDL hardware" so to speak, instead of "Turbo Linux hardware" or whatever they shipped with before regardless of what the individual end-users wanted to use. Big deal.
Call it a "Linux tax" if you like.
It doesn't seem to be as much of a TSS/YDL "Linux tax" (c.f. "Microsoft tax") as it would be a "Teron tax". In the Microsoft tax case it's the software vendor controlling the hardware vendors (through Windows' market domination and its commercial appeal/necessity), but in this case TSS can't control Mai in the same way (Mai and the Terons aren't dependent on YDL). Instead of making this arrangement, Mai could just as well have gone with e.g. Debian or even shipped the free "unsupported" YDL with their boards, or Mai themselves or someone else could've modified and supported YDL, without Mai becoming a commercial paria - imagine Dell losing their ship-with-Windows-OEM license! No extortion here AFAICS. The wonders of the GPL. :)
I'm also an YDL user, and as long as TSS doesn't try to tell me who I'm allowed to buy my hardware from I'm happy with that distro, and looking forward to 3.0... ;)
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I think you don't fully understand.
Are you saying that you are okay with the fact that EVERY AmigaOne owner including those who have zero intrest in YDL would be required to pay extra on the off chance he may want to run YDL one day?
That's why I call it a Linux tax.
Incidentally, the current Linux distro for the A1 is Debian based as SuSe seems to have discontinued LinuxPPC support.
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> see here for a very good reason as to the delays.
It's already common knowledge that the firmware wasn't ready, in spite of what's been announced by others than TSS and Mai. There are no actual delays per se. The boards are simply not done and shipping in volume yet, again despite what's been announced by others than TSS and Mai. The quite natural "breaking" of totally unrealistic and unfounded "release dates" announced by a distributor without any control over the product does not equal delays. It's a natural process. :) (There was a recent thread about "spoiling" here and on Moo Bunny)
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Are you saying that you are okay with the fact that EVERY AmigaOne owner including those who have zero intrest in YDL would be required to pay extra on the off chance he may want to run YDL one day?
That's why I call it a Linux tax.
I think I have to agree with Ben here, but also with Seehund on the difference between this situation and the OS4 hardware policy.
I agree with Ben in that:
If indeed TSS wants Mai to pay $20 for each Teron sold (since it can run YDL), I would call that Linux tax. The consumer will be paying for the potential (unlike in the case of firmware which is more likely needed and not reflashed), and some may resent that.
However, whether or not that is okay business-wise depends on the arrangement between Mai and TSS. For Mai, YDL does add value, and one way for Mai to pay TSS for this added value would certainly be to pay royalties. Another would be to pay a substantial one-time development fee and then take that in any case from the board price. (Third would be to expect YDL to do their OS on their own and not pay for it at all - in this case development would not be guaranteed.)
As a comparison, I guess the firmware arrangement with Hyperion falls into the first or second category, even though it is open source work (and as we remember, open source isn't free beer, it is free speech)... And again, nothing wrong with that.
So, in any case, if Mai wants to guarantee YDL on their Teron with some kind of monetary incentive to TSS to add value to Teron, the consumer will pay for that in the price of the board in one way or the other (be that royalties or some one-time fee). The small volume and open source means that separate sales channels (i.e. shrink-wrap) are less likely to provide YDL with such an incentive - and that is what this "tax" probably comes down to...
Does Mai want to pay for a Linux provider to add value to their board?
But yes, sure, I agree with Ben that it is a Linux tax because one way or the other, if Mai wants the deal for sure, (TSS will not work for free, as I'm sure Hyperon would not have made the firmware for free even if one can now download it for free) they may have to pay for it - and eventually the consumer will pay for that.
I'm not sure if this is what Seehund meant as well, but I agree at least with Ben.
I do agree with Seehund on the opinion that this is unlike the OS4 situation though. TSS is not restricting the market for Linux distributions by asking for this "Linux tax", they are only looking for a revenue model to pay for their work.
While this is certainly true for OS4 as well, the difference there is that there are no other AmigaOS 4.0 distributions and the licensing process there will limit the market in a way I believe is damaging to the product by adding an additional obstacle to the existing technical obstacles. There is simply more to the "OS4 tax" issue, than there is to the "Linux tax" issue. The former (if implemented) artificially limits the market while looking for a solid revenue model, while the latter, well, only touches the revenue model.
I believe the argument of limiting markets is an important theme of Seehund's argument and petition. Also, since OS4 is proprietary and could be sold shrink-wrapped better than open source, not all the same arguments apply. Even though piracy is an issue to consider, you will still very likely sell more closed source to a small technically oriented market than you would open source. You can also legally put in a removable dongle (e.g. USB), whereas you cannot really dongle open source software.
It is different for OS4 and YDL for this very reason.
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Hi Ben..
I think we all others *DO* understand. You have just realized now crazy your own arguments have been during last year.. Eyetech is selling this very same Linux board in Europe with extra 300$ price cause of Amiga-tax you have innovated ... So just pay part of it to Terrasoft and be happy what you get from each system sold.
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Poster: WarPiper Date: 2003/3/9 17:16:22
like I said..... ....
x86!!!!
there are no Guarantee's with out it!
There is a X86 Amiga related OS out there, it's called AROS.
Dammy
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I think you don't fully understand.
Are you saying that you are okay with the fact that EVERY AmigaOne owner including those who have zero intrest in YDL would be required to pay extra on the off chance he may want to run YDL one day?
It does indeed seem like I don't fully understand exactly what you're trying to say... Exactly what is the situation here? When you say "every Teron capable of running YDL" (i.e. every Teron, regardless of distributor) includes the price for a full supported copy of YDL, then Mai must have chosen YDL as "the Teron distro", no matter if a distributor down the chain decides against including YDL for that distributor's customers, right? This is nothing that TSS can have introduced on "their own" and enforce on every distributor. Mai can't have been coerced by TSS, market pressure or anything else to do this.
That, or that TSS have bought the exclusive rights to produce Terons from Mai, can really be the only logical explanation.
No, I don't think it's ideal, the best thing would obviously have been options for which OS/distro you want to have bundled, if any. But I don't see why I should start seeing "bad guys" here. The Terons were always "Linux boards" to a certain extent, and now the hardware manufacturer has chosen (again, if you please could clarify on that bit) another "standard" distro than the previous Turbo Linux to ship with their boards. If each board used to be sold with the right to a full copy of Turbo Linux, included or not by distributors, then there already was a "Linux tax".
Compared to the market control of third party hardware vendors allowed to sell hardware to AmigaOS users, this is nothing. IMO, there surely are worse things to be upset about for AmigaOS users than having to pay max $30 extra for a motherboard and an OS you might not be interested in ($30 is the lowest price for retail YDL copies, I imagine OEM prices being far lower. Do you have any precise figures? TSS listed the Teron PX at $500, including YDL and with a "flexibility margin" of +/- $50 ). With no more Amiga hardware being made, we (users, you, Eyetech, AInc) don't really have much say in the matter of hardware anyway.
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No Joanna, I think you are wrong.
In this case it seems that Terrasoft wants to
tax all boards that are capable of running YDL ( with their
contributions of course ) that are resold through OTHER
vendors regardless of whether or not that board ships
with YDL.
In the Amiga case the "Amiga Certification Scheme" would only be applied
if that board was to be sold as an Amiga.
One you get a choice over ( don't sell it as an Amiga ) the
other you do not ( its capable of running YDL therefore it
must be taxed ).
Thats how I read it anyway.
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You know, the "Terrasoft" tax sounds just like the tactics Microsoft used to such success in the past.
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It's a seal, a seadog.
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@HyperionMP:
Only people who specifically want AmigaOS will need to pay for it.
How difficult is this to figure out: I want to buy a shrinkwrapped box copy of AmigaOS4 that installed & runs on Pegasos II. Or any available PowerPC based motherboards, maybe even PowerPC Macs too.
The only bad guys are the ones who won't support a free and open Amiga market.
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By the way, those who want an AmigaOS on x86 should seriously check out AROS.
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HyperionMP
Do you know if this will be sorted out shortly? (so that amigaone buyers won't pay linux-tax)
Dan Andersson
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Isn't it more likely that MAI can't deliver?
Isn't this like a game of musical chairs without the chairs?
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@strobe
I just talked with some friends in Terrasoft, supply is not the problem. Neither are bugs. They would not go into details, but they were really PO'd.
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@DaveP
You forgot one important fact. Eyetect is only distributor of BOTH boards in europe. So Even if you are willing to purchase Linux-only board it comes thru Eyetech and they add their _tax_ into it.
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You know its very hard to feel sorry for a company that wanted to gouge Amiga users for $380 dollars per board, when they themselves are being gouged back for a mere $20.
This is just business.
They don't have to like it, they don't have to sell MAI boards..in fact... I sometimes pay for some things that I don't want to, because these things do happen . I don't blame Eyetech if they try to figure out something different. Heck Genesi figured out something different, they just dumped MAI.
Maybe, Eyetech could do the same...oh yes, I forgot, they don't actually have any talent on staff.
Well anyway, if they have to negotiate....just negotiate. It's not like they developed the product themselves, or had the clout of Terrasoft....so someday....build your own products, build your clout, but in the meantime deal with reality.
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@MarkTime:
Please,Again.Until you prove this with Real data,just forget this "$380" number,as it cannot be proved to be real yet today.
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Maybe, Eyetech could do the same..
I don't know of any reasons why Eyetech could not become a Pegasos retailer, selling them under their own brand name of AmigaONE, do you?
Just my personal thought process going on here.
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[quoteI don't know of any reasons why Eyetech could not become a Pegasos retailer, selling them under their own brand name of AmigaONE, do you?
Just my personal thought process going on here.[/quote]
Eyetech could but i doubt they would want to cos
Maybe just Maybe! cos Billbuck has been putting the Aone down all the time.
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PulsatingQuasar: Well that's obvious isn't it. If the motherboard is significantly different then what you had before, Windows doesn't understand this change and tries to run with wrong drivers.
Not if you boot in SAFE MODE, and not if it crashes during the the security sector check... before any drivers are loaded. I'm not a tech guru, but I'm not THAT stupid.
Besides, previous versions of Windows were perfecty capable of detecting changed motherboards without outright crashing, even outside safe mode. If the newer Win32 architecture can't do the same, that's Microsoft's problem.
Also, you can't read a NTFS partition from DOS, and you can't use FAT32 on a 160GB hard drive. How do you access your data if Windows crashes? Re-install Windows, of course. Boot up with the Windows2000 CD and give an administrative password, and it denies access to all folders except "WINNT".
And they do it all "for security reasons."
Or, you can just use a Win2000 bootdisk, and it will give you full access to a WinXP hard drive without a password. Good lord...
KannyR: And make the Amiga just another PC? *shudder* You might as well tell all your developers to f'k off now, since the Pegasos would get the prime pick of them anyway. What's hard to understand about the fact many people just won't use x86 machines?
AGP, USB, PCI, 1394, Ethernet, SDRAM, ... oh yeah, the AmigaOne is really a non-PC to heart.
Hey, let's toss in a SB Live and ATI video card. That'll really bring back custom Amiga hardware memories.
What kind of people are going to make software for a machine that sells in the thousands, at most?
To me, it's not about performance. It's about value. The AmigaOne offers hardware standards equivalent to PC hardware manufactured several years ago, upholds virtually *NO* hardware standards of classic Amigas, and costs a lot of money. Any piece of modern hardware can run my old Amiga software with the right engineering. The hardware is irrelevant. But value is *ALWAYS* a factor.
And, hey, where's the Amiga floppy controller? I could use one of those, especially for a motherboard that costs that much. But, why would I want that built in if I can get a 3rd party Flipper PCI floppy controller for a lot more money? (Plus, it uses a PCI slot, and AmigaOne only has three. Most PC's come with at least five).
Remember the iMac? Why would you want an internal floppy drive for $15 when you can get an external USB floppy drive for $100? Also, you can't boot off a USB floppy drive.
There's nothing special about the AmigaOne. It's just an obsolete, expensive PC. I wonder if MIA is actually selling any Teron boards at all. I can't imagine why anybody except a PPC embedded machine developer would want one.
JoannaK: Yep.. Looks good on paper, and has apparently caused 2-3 weeks of delays with no information beforehand. I really wish these companies someday learn to make decent announcements in time. Ah well.. it's their product.
Here, here. It's the information age... so where's the information? Am I supposed to believe these companies will deliver better products and services than any other PC company?
I don't want any new OS to just be a hobby for nostalgic purposes. I want a serious contender. AmigaOS4 for x86 could have been, in my opinion.
I'm sorry I missed the chance to pick up BeOS. That was a serious contender.
I only stick around to see what AmigaDE will be like. I'd like to think I can do more than spread FUD, but I don't think Amiga really pays attention to Amiga forums, anyway.
BTW, I have a lot of respect for Hyperion. It's Amiga Inc. I can't stand.
DarthX: By the way, those who want an AmigaOS on x86 should seriously check out AROS.
True. Too bad there's no corporation behind it. Free software is "nice", but commercial software has plenty of advantages. Free operating systems are a dime a dozen, and rarely offer anything for people sick of dealing with geek speak. I gave up on Linux very quickly when I found out I'd have to compile my own drivers. What nonsense!
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I should point out that the above statements of mine related to the imposition of a Linux tax were speculation based on the fact that some people informed me that Terrasoft had attempted to do exactly that with bPlan.
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@PulsatingQuasar
Wrong, Windows can very well cope with a totally
new motherboard, I changed my Cel750&QDI A9 with
a Gigabyte motherboard and a Thunderbird and W2k
worked. The problem is with Windows XP which
doesn't let you run your installation on a different
setup...
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Poster: Waccoon Date: 2003/3/11 2:33:16
True. Too bad there's no corporation behind it. Free software is "nice", but commercial software has plenty of advantages. Free operating systems are a dime a dozen, and rarely offer anything for people sick of dealing with geek speak. I gave up on Linux very quickly when I found out I'd have to compile my own drivers. What nonsense!
AROS is about Amigaish as you can get. If that type of geek speak bothers you, what are you doing here? As for Linux's drivers needing compiled in the kernel, unless you have some really rare hardware and or some really old (and crappy) distro, that is a none issue.
Dammy
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@HyperionMP
I should point out that the above statements of mine related to the imposition of a Linux tax were speculation based on the fact that some people informed me that Terrasoft had attempted to do exactly that with bPlan.
Just in case.. Could you or someone else confirm that this Terrasoft product removal did not happen cause those new Articia-S fixed boards were not good enough to be used as Linux Servers?
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You'd probably be best off trying to get an answer from the source, Terrasoft. Though, I doubt they will tell you. I've heard three different things and I'm not sure which one is true.