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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Senex on February 23, 2003, 01:17:25 AM
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At MorphOS-News.de (http://morphos-news.de/comments.php?lg=en&cpp=1&nid=222&page=32) and on the public MorphOS-mailinglist, Genesi give further information regarding the change to the Pegasos-II-board and an upgrade-offer for Pegasos-I-owners:
This is a letter we sent out today to the "inside" group...(sorry no ima1ges!)...
22 February 2003
Dear Friends of Genesi,
We wanted to provide some basic communication this weekend to all of you, because frankly our focus this past week has been the Management meetings here in Paris. We hope that this letter will assist you in understanding more clearly the direction of the Company. Please feel free to respond directly to us at bbrv@genesi.lu with your questions. If you understand and share our vision, you can adjust
your effort to become more relevant to our corporate framework if you desire.
As we have said before, Genesi stands on the verge of enormous opportunity. We can provide a completely integrated solution, including hardware, operating system, and a number of (bundled and unbundled) applications. We can innovate in ways that involve the complete integrated package, rather than being limited to new developments within each level by third parties (HP and Microsoft are not as self-reliant in this way). Genesi and our associates need to leverage this advantage fully. We are smaller, faster and will be necessarily more adventurous in our efforts. Do not hesitate to share your most creativity ideas with these mailing lists. Together, we believe we can create a substantial and long awaited change to the IT marketplace.
In the first BIG opportunity to our Company, we are required to develop using a PPC and MorphOS, a terrestrial Digital Television receiver with interactive/computing and smart card read and write functions (to be referred to as the DTV STB). This product will not require the use of the Articia and we will be producing significant quantities in the development phase and a special version of MorphOS (without hurting the complete version). If we deliver the DTV STB in a satisfactory manner we will be eligible to receive orders for over one million units. It is a once-in-a-lifetime professional opportunity for all of us. We need to make the most of it.
Of course, none of this would be possible without the years of dedication required to bring the Pegasos and MorphOS to where it is today. We are all proud to be associated with the bplan guys. The difficulties over the last year have nothing to do with them. It is the Articia from Mai Logic that has caused us months of delays. It does not perform to the advertised specifications. Thankfully, Gerald and Thomas tested and mounted the Aritica on the April2. That is right -- the April2.
The first patch that Gerald and Thomas developed works as we know, but there were still bugs. The new Articia (and Teron) is still very likely to have trouble as more problems were detected after the Aachen Show and well after the joint work Gerald did with for the new Articia in October and November with Mai. The April2 brings the Articia fully to the performance levels it claims to achieve. We have purchased the remaining worldwide supply of the old Articias and will make 400 more Pegasos main boards with the G3 CPU. Our G3 Pegasos performs better than the G4 Teron with the Articia. This will be common knowledge soon (let the others understand this on their own our word will stand
as testimony to our knowledge and skill). Once produced, we will stop (we may license production of this version of the Pegasos to Plexuscom or others). These machines will easily satisfy the Amiga market and give us the machines we need to seed our developer base while Gerald and Thomas switch out the old Articia to a much more attractive
alternative (details later). This could be ready by the summer. The RAM speed of the Pegasos will be as high as any offered in the market and this WILL attract considerable interest. The DTV STB revenue can carry us until this point (remember this IS a business we hope you Developers begin to remember this!).
To repeat a few words from an earlier communication?
If our strategic vision is compelling and our execution excellent, we will increasingly attract skilled developers. What Ralph, Frank and the core MorphOS Development Team have accomplished to date is exceptional, but now we need to establish a professional development and management system for MorphOS, formally retain the services of all
key MorphOS developers, and recruit new talent to the project. We have struck on the Phoenix association to develop a vehicle to do this. All
registered Phoenix members must use a special Phoenix logon and password to have access to the reduced Pegasos pricing that will be available through www.pegasos-usa.com (http://www.pegasos-usa.com). We need to be somewhat selective in insuring that these next boards go to people that will advance in communion with our effort and our internal developers and
Phoenix members will have priority. We will also develop the User Group program next week and a system for handling Pegasos sales so our
Distributors also benefit.
Our targeted resource/sales markets from the near to medium term are:
1. Amiga/MorphOS
2. DTV STB
3. LinuxPPC and OtherPPC
We will continue to promote to the Amiga/MorphOS market, as we have. Our underlying focus should be: broadening and stabilizing MorphOS, attracting applications and drivers (ports/original
programs), and establishing a Pegasos toolkit. At the same time, www.pegasos-usa.com (http://www.pegasos-usa.com) is working and our online sales support and information site at www.genesi-support.com (http://www.genesi-support.com) will continue to improve. If we are lucky we will awaken and attract the slumbering ex-Commodore
consumer market, but that will take some time and we are not quite ready for mass-market attention. The sites will be there and ready.
Until we are ready with the Pegasos II we will not promote the sites as much as we could. Plus, we will standardize the Pegasos distribution network over the next few months taking a semi-franchise
approach. When we are ready, everything will be in place.
On the hardware side we start where we are: the Pegasos. We have discussed the features: upgradeable, scalable, modifiable (smaller
eclipsis, subsets/modular Psylent/STB), and open, as in Open Firmware (facilitates scheme for peripheral association/development IAW the
IE1275 standard). We will develop a solid plan and feature set for each Pegasos envisioned and the corresponding software bundles. The management review that took place this week was very successful. We have defined and agreed to our objectives and are now preparing a solid plan for the future.
NOTE: for 200 Euros and trade-in ALL Pegasos I Users (includes Betatesters) WILL be able to upgrade to the Pegasos II (just to put an end to that FUD!).
About Linux and the other targets?OS4 too -- ;-)
Linux people usually want something great for nothing, but in the PPC market if we can get a design win over the Teron the next price point is a Mac. As more professionals and desktop consumers switch to Linux, the future of commercial software on Linux is very bright and so is our hardware. Functionality will become precedent over cost in this market. We need a bootable bundled distro and Mac-on-Linux.
Linux will be a major force in the future. Today, it is still difficult to install software, drivers, set up firewalls, etc., but because of the generous licensing environment and the massive corporate support Linux is gaining (IBM, HP, etc.) as well as
government mandates and funding in many countries, it is set to become the "next big thing". We need to be part of that trend.
Any PPC OS that is reasonable to port with external resources is interesting to us. We need a Go/NoGo decision matrix. Again, we are looking for resources and developer talent. For example, while Linux gets the glory, BSDs are running some of the biggest sites. We have seen the first screenshots of OpenBSD running on the Pegasos. Further, there is an increasing amount of interesting open source
projects we could find a way to adapt to our use.
Finally, we are interested in restoring the Demo Scene to the Pegasos. The traditional and overt message in a demo was technical skill. The visual effects pushed the supposed limits of the
platform's capability and graphics were skillfully executed. Good demos are the marriage of advanced technical, creative and artistic abilities. For the future, we need a new generation of Sceners to be pulling the most from the platform and the OS. This can generate plenty of positive attention. Besides the nVidia butterfly lady has the wrong color wings! This is why we decided to sponsor Equinoxe.
All these other things all ultimately bring us back to our key advantage: a completely integrated solution, including hardware, operating system, and applications. Management is working hard to turn
this vision into a reality. While the sale of the Pegasos and MorphOS alone could never sustain the Company we are building, it may one day
in the future. We use the Pegasos today to begin our move to the future, while insuring the development and growth of the MorphOS.
Things could get pretty exciting if we can get that far. Let us not forget that 30 million STBs sold last year and they were called video game consoles.
Please feel free to provide any feedback to us.
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
P.S. If you are still confused go here -- www.lagardere.com (http://www.lagardere.com) -- and select Lagardère Media présente "Focus sur la Télé" on the left. This should help explain everything (even if it is in French!)
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[Yada yada yada, some subtle stabs at AmigaOne ...]
[snip]
Our G3 Pegasos performs better than the G4 Teron with the Articia. This will be common knowledge soon (let the others understand this on their own our word will stand
as testimony to our knowledge and skill).
Wow, he really is full of himself, isn't he. Talk about delusions of grandeur ...
Can we have some evidence of this please?
Before we get that, I regard this as pure FUD (ooh, I said the F word :-o )
Anyways, things are looking good for Peg/MOS after all, if this thing ever materialises. I hope they don't leave the current Peg owners out in the cold.
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Isn't this illegal? Talking about competitors products like this. Remember the pepsi - coca cola commercials...
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Usual talk with nothing to back up claims.
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In the first BIG opportunity to our Company, we are required to develop using a PPC and MorphOS, a terrestrial Digital Television receiver with interactive/computing and smart card read and write functions (to be referred to as the DTV STB). This product will not require the use of the Articia and we will be producing significant quantities in the development phase and a special version of MorphOS (without hurting the complete version). If we deliver the DTV STB in a satisfactory manner we will be eligible to receive orders for over one million units. It is a once-in-a-lifetime professional opportunity for all of us. We need to make the most of it.
Hmmm... Anyone remember BeOS, and BeIA (we are not going to forget the desktop market)? If this thing isn't going to use the Articia (which I've been mispelling and mispronouncing all along) then what will it use? Sounds really scaled down and really limited, but good luck with it, what ever it is. Does it also dice and slice and include something more for .... wait..... only >>>>$19.95 <<<<<
Okay, sorry folks. BBRV's pep talks do come off sounding overly enthusiastic and sometimes downright silly. But he does have the ability to gain attention to a product. I bet he could sell a bowl of white rice and make it sound like the most delicious bowl of curry rice ever cooked. I really wish we had him pushing OS4 like that.
Good luck with the new products. When will we know more about the Pegasos II and the new northbridge?
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The first patch that Gerald and Thomas developed works as we know, but there were still bugs
Well, if I remember right (and it's possible that I don't), isn't this the chip that Genesi was boasting over saying, "we have a fixed chip, and AmigaOne does not"?
Wasn't this the very thing that they were basing thier stability on in the first place?
Then Alan said, "BullCrap, it's not fixed".
Then everyone jumped on Alan and said that he was unprofessional, and throwing fud all around the place?
And now they are scrapping the "fixed chip" because it was not really fixed in the first place?
Just like Alan said?
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@Herewegoagain
Um... Be changed directions, hence why they had so many problems. Genesi already makes embedded internet-ready devices. So making an STB is a logical bridge between their ComCam, Cashboy and Pegasos product lineups.
A good business decision, especially since the risk is not on Genesi's head as they are doing it under contract.
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@bb, if he's reading:
> Together, we believe we can create a substantial and long awaited change to the IT marketplace.
If having the name Bill and lying about your competitors is what it takes to succeed, I'd have to agree that your chances are good.
Anyway, Buck, let me just say that I am REALLY tired of your habit of including misinformation about the AmigaOne/Teron in your pressreleases. Could you please, PLEASE knock it off? I don't care if you lie your head off about the Pegasos, but please leave the AmigaOne be. I happen to care about the Amiga platform, and don't appreciate people FUDing it. Thanks in advance.
> Our G3 Pegasos performs better than the G4 Teron with the Articia.
Buck, on these issues, I trust you about as far as I can toss the Great Pyramid of Cheops. I don't suppose you can substantiate this claim?
Kay
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I hope they'll give fact to back up their claims... Personnally I kind of trust them. (after all, genesi designed the pegasos, tested Articia with it a long time, designed April 1, then April 2)...
But we need facts, proofs. Otherwise, anyone can claim the contrary as well ! (which leads in blind wars, everyone trusting someone without proofs)
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Um... Be changed directions, hence why they had so many problems.
Ummm. Yep. That's my point. But at first they claimed they were not leaving the desktop behind. THEN they changed directions. Just like Genesi have changed directions with the Pegasos. Now it will not be what they claimed to all of those who purchased. But you say, "yeah but they can upgrade for $200" So what? That was never the original plan, hence they have changed plans. What's to say they will not do it agian before September?
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Our G3 Pegasos performs better than the G4 Teron with the Articia. This will be common knowledge soon (let the others understand this on their own our word will stand as testimony to our knowledge and skill).
I'm sorry but, I don't believe you.
NOTE: for 200 Euros and trade-in ALL Pegasos I Users (includes Betatesters) WILL be able to upgrade to the Pegasos II (just to put an end to that FUD!).
And be w/o my hardware for how long? What an absolute crock of BS.
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So let's find an A1 and Pegasos owner and put this to rest already. It's pointless to point at each other shouting "liar".
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(after all, genesi designed the pegasos, tested Articia with it a long time, designed April 1
Which they said was completly fixed.
Only to find out that, in reality, it was not fixed at all.
That's called promotional hype.
Others might call it a straight out lie.
It depends on how you look at it, I reckon.
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@ Herewegoagain
"Ummm. Yep. That's my point. But at first they claimed they were not leaving the desktop behind. THEN they changed directions. Just like Genesi have changed directions with the Pegasos. Now it will not be what they claimed to all of those who purchased. But you say, "yeah but they can upgrade for $200" So what? That was never the original plan, hence they have changed plans. What's to say they will not do it agian before September?"
You know what is a scary thought, that maybe Eyetech may change plans too? I am not sure what to make of this Aritica chip??? I hope that Eyetech has a better working relationhip with Mai Logic. I hope that they were/are able to reslove any problems with the Aritica chip. If not then maybe they will need to change thier plans??
Just some of my thoughts
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@ Warrent
I hope that Eyetech has a better working relationhip with Mai Logic.
Most definitely, stay tuned. :-D
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I don't trust Bill Buck, never did (since the daysof... what was it?.. Escom?...).
Though I don't know the guy, he allways looked dishonest and shifty to me, like one of those sneeky salesmen in some TV comedies.
And all these posts in the last few months - by him, his company and many of his "followers" - just proved me right, in my mind.
I can only be sorry for those who still trust him, and I'm also sorry for the Pegasos and MorphOS, which could have been a fine solution if they were in some more honest hands.
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We have purchased the remaining worldwide supply of the old Articias and will make 400 more Pegasos main boards with the G3 CPU. Our G3 Pegasos performs better than the G4 Teron with the Articia. This will be common knowledge soon (let the others understand this on their own our word will stand as testimony to our knowledge and skill)
I thought that the AmigaONE-XE was using the new updated version of the Articia's? What did they call it.... the new "mask" version?
@BBRV if you are going to say that the Peg G3 is better then the A1 G4 please back this up with something. Tell us what tests you have performed to come to this conclusion, what software you have used on both devices and what other hardware (gfx cards etc) were used so that other people can try to do the same tests and see if they come to the same conslusion.
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@ Jumpship
Peg G3 is better then the A1 G4 please back this up with something.
I find it quite remarkable how most MorphOS supporters simply swallow Buck's FUD directed towards 3rd party products.
However provided the little given detail, it is of course possible that somehow they compared a 350 Mhz G4 with a 800 Mhz G3. ;-)
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@MikeB
:lol: Could well have been!!
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1) "MorphOS is illegal, they recompile OS3.1 sources"
2) "There are no bugs in the Articia S. That's what
people that buy their firmware get"
3) "MorphOS this and that"
... So don't throw stones while being in a glass house.
BTW, what would you do if bPlan did NOT find the
Articia S bugs? Gerald made the fix MAI used in
the Teron board sent to Eyetech some time ago.
That's why he KNEW that the bug wasn't really
fixed.
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We need a bootable bundled distro and Mac-on-Linux.
So after all this time, they still don't have a bootable Linux distro ?
This gels with what I've read on other forums, but not with what the marketing machine has been spewing out. Still, it explains why the MOSsers have been dissing Linux - they don't have a sufficiently useable version.
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Linux - they don't have a sufficiently useable version.
Nonsense. But Genesi is spreading FUD, eh?
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Update regarding the distribution of the 300 new boards, exchange for Peg-I/April-2 boards, etc. at MorphOS-News.de:
http://www.morphos-news.de/comments.php?lg=en&cpp=1&nid=222&page=37
Personally most probably I won't exchange and will wait for the Peg-II, since I noticed no problems so far with the April-1 and think it's more useful if this way one developer more can get one of the last boards instead.
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>So after all this time, they still don't have a
>bootable Linux distro ?
>This gels with what I've read on other forums
You shouldn't believe what Mr Hermans is spreading
around.
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You know what is a scary thought, that maybe Eyetech may change plans too? I am not sure what to make of this Aritica chip??? I hope that Eyetech has a better working relationhip with Mai Logic. I hope that they were/are able to reslove any problems with the Aritica chip. If not then maybe they will need to change thier plans??
I don't think this is as likely. The Terron boards are being marketed by Terrasoft for the Linux market, and Eyetech for the Linux and Amiga market. The Teron boards and the Articia have recieved IBM's "Ready for IBM Technology" approval. See link below.
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/wired/alliances/mai_logic.html (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/wired/alliances/mai_logic.html)
So I don't think the Teron series will be disappearing anytime soon. I do hope, however, that they are already working on the next revision using the newer Articia P bringing AGP4x and DDR among other things.
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>The Teron boards and the Articia have recieved
>IBM's "Ready for IBM Technology" approval.
Yes we all know. Why are you always repeating? Is
this the only advantage these boards have?
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Yes we all know. Why are you always repeating? Is
this the only advantage these boards have?
Well, I guess for the same reason you people keep shouting "The Articia is so buggy" and "It doesn't perform right". It seems as though the Pegasos is the main system that is having problems. That was not a post to you but a reply to Warrent's post. Skip it if you don't want to read it!
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>It seems as though the Pegasos is the main
>system that is having problems.
Obviously not, otherwise other desktop/server
systems using the chipset would be out in numbers.
PS: According to KDH website: A1 XE 10/03 and
24/03, OS4 CybPPC 01/05
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Obviously not, otherwise other desktop/server
systems using the chipset would be out in numbers.
Yeah, well, at least they are not crying because the whole project has to be scrapped and taken back to square one. Of course, I'm not laughing at Pegasos either. I think it's good they are moving on.
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I don't suppose you can substantiate this claim?
I offered to Mike Bouma on the other thread to have a 3rd party pul some benchmarks, provided someone is willing to lend their A1 to the cause... and have had no takers so far. Got plenty of Pegasos owners willing to run the benchmarks so far tho.
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Mai not totally honest about their Articia? Welcome to the evil world of niche computing, Genesi. As Amiga Inc. found out a while ago, this market is just full of companies who try to sell off incomplete software and broken hardware. Maybe now you'll have a little empathy for AInc, if not any sympathy.
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@ Downix
provided someone is willing to lend their A1 to the cause...
I don't believe any beta-tester would be willing to lent you their brand new AmigaOne-XE for this. They have more important things to do, like beta-testing.
However you could ask people like Ron @ Computer City to do some benchmark comparison tests using LinuxPPC (i.e. Debian or SuSE) for both AmigaOneG3-SE and PegasosG3 boards.
I do think it is funny, that you don't first ask BB to do the obvious, backing up his claims with some details.
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>So after all this time, they still don't have a
>bootable Linux distro ?
>This gels with what I've read on other forums
You shouldn't believe what Mr Hermans is spreading
around.
Sorry to burst your bubble: this was a post by a pissed-off Pegasos owner who wanted to use Linux with his mobo, followed by a reply from one of the MOS team.
It wasn't even in a language that Ben Hermans speaks.
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Hello Rose,
I really wonder why I got a bootable Debian on my Pegasos. It's strange that I have a bootable distro as according to you and your speculations it doesn't exist. And you know I've got a bootable Linux on it since August 2002.
Next time avoid to speculate, you are not good ;-)
Regards
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Hello,
"Isn't this illegal? Talking about competitors products like this. Remember the pepsi - coca cola commercials..."
Comparison marketing is legal in most of the countries of the world. I see comparison advertising on TV or magazines every day.
Regards
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Hello Mountain_Myst,
"Which they said was completly fixed.
Only to find out that, in reality, it was not fixed at all."
Don't speculate that it's not fixed at all. April 1 fix lot of bugs particularly the famous DMA bug and some others. Just see Peg1-April1 owners like Senex who never had any probs with his Pegasos.
Regards
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>this was a post by a pissed-off Pegasos owner
>who wanted to use Linux with his mobo
Ah so it was you who told Mr Hermans about this.
But why hasn't he told you the reply he got on ann.lu?
There people having Linux on Pegasos for many
months now.
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Hello KennyR,
"Mai not totally honest about their Articia? Welcome to the evil world of niche computing, Genesi. As Amiga Inc. found out a while ago, this market is just full of companies who try to sell off incomplete software and broken hardware."
Sadly I've to agree with that :(
Regards
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Hello Frodon,
Don't speculate that it's not fixed at all. April 1 fix lot of bugs particularly the famous DMA bug and some others
Well, now is really not a good time for you to be preaching MorphOS.
As you can see, there hasn't been people on here in the last couple of days saying, "Haaaaa, MorphOS rulez you".
They must have been a little humbled by the recent news from Genesi.
As far as the fix goes.
BULL CRAP!
They blew the hatch, man.
They screwed the pooch.
And it's strange to me that all this time, you've been away.
But now when people are starting to know what Genesi is all about, here you are again.
Who are you anyway.
Does Bill Buck pay you for your services?
And it's not speculation.
It's fact, btw.
and furthermore...
MorphOS is illegal.
But that never bothered me much anyway, as I don't see it as a real threat.
And don't give me this crap about api this and api that.
That's horse hocky and you know it.
Sorry if I sound rude btw.
I've had 4 hours sleep, my tooth is killing me, and I feel like someone just stepped in me.
So, I'm not being rude. ;-)
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> Our G3 Pegasos performs better than the G4 Teron with the Articia.
Buck, on these issues, I trust you about as far as I can toss the Great Pyramid of Cheops. I don't suppose you can substantiate this claim?
This will be common knowledge soon (let the others understand this on their own our word will stand
As the man said, let everyone find this out on their own... if it's untrue i'm pretty sure *someone* will gladly post the results. ;-)
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Hello Mountain_Myst,
Well, now is really not a good time for you to be preaching MorphOS.
As you can see, there hasn't been people on here in the last couple of days saying, "Haaaaa, MorphOS rulez you".
They must have been a little humbled by the recent news from Genesi.
People not putting "MorphOS rulez" everywhere doesn't mean they don't think it :) I'm myself a Pegasos user and really love it and I know lot of others users who love it too. In fact I don't know any users who doesn't love it.
As far as the fix goes.
BULL CRAP!
Well the fix was and is needed, at least with "old" articias, so it's a useful fix.
They blew the hatch, man.
They screwed the pooch.
And it's strange to me that all this time, you've been away.
But now when people are starting to know what Genesi is all about, here you are again.
I've a got a life you know :) I had some exams at my school the past few weeks. Yes I'm a student :)
Who are you anyway.
Does Bill Buck pay you for your services?
I'm a student in my life. Otherwise, like I said, I'm the president of a MorphOS users group (which was an Amiga users group before) in France
And it's not speculation.
It's fact, btw.
What, that the fix is useless? Sorry it's not useless. As soon as you can't prove it's useless, it's not a fact. All I can see is that thanks to April, users who had problems with the unfixed boards, doesn't have probs anymore.
Additionally even Eyetech Ltd have officially said the Articia S was buggy and need a fix. They got their fix, Genesi got their fix too (April).
and furthermore...
MorphOS is illegal.
Prove it. As soon as it's not proven, it's not a fact.
But that never bothered me much anyway, as I don't see it as a real threat.
And don't give me this crap about api this and api that.
That's horse hocky and you know it.
You can think what you want to think, but not say it's facts until you prove it. AFAIK you didn't for now.
Regards
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What, that the fix is useless? Sorry it's not useless
Well pardon me if I choke on my porkchop here, but they are doing away with Pegasos One.
That sounds pretty useless to me.
As far as proving that MorphOS is illegal.
Don't have to.
Everybody with any sense knows it.
You don't need proof.
All you need to know is that it's true.
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MorphOS is illegal.
I'm sick of this statement...
If you've got evidence, show it. Otherwise shut up already.
This whole "MorphOS is illegal" crap started because of a non-programmer stating that he did not know how someone could clone an OS without having the original source. Well, hate to break it to you, but more than one project has done just this.
So, put up or shut up. This song is loosing it's tune.
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and furthermore...
MorphOS is illegal.
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Proove it or lose all creditability you had in my mind as an intelligent curious user.
BTW, you're spreading the worse kind of FUD. How do people call people that do that? Right... "Troll!"
And don't give me this crap about api this and api that.
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You remind me small children that close their ears
and start shouting "Ni ni ni ni" every time you try to
correct them about something. Where should those
children be held? RIght... in the kindergarten.
That's horse hocky and you know it.
--
As longs as you can't proove it, your head is horse hocky.
BTW, it's illegal to start claiming that a product is illegal and not prooving it. You can say that your
product is better than another (has been done by
both parties) but not claim #### about the legallity of
any product.
I will not accept any reply that doesn't answer all
questions as a valid reply to anything. Go figure.
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Well, actually I don't care what you're sick of, and I don't appreciate you telling me to shut up.
If you can't figure out using common sense that MorphOS is illegal, it is you that needs to shut up.
You people are no better than H&P screwing Bernie.
Bernie had the rights to build Amithlon, Genesi does not have the rights to build from Amiga code.
And I couldn't care any less about the way you feel about me as an intelligent thinker.
I don't need your approval.
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No, it's you that needs to know when to shut up,
cause when the OWNER of some IP can't prove that
a product is illegal, hardly anybody can. BTW, if
Genesi was Amiga Inc or Harald Frank you would be
sued by now.
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Heh...
I think if someone tried to sue me, they would be in for one heck of a surprise.
:-o
and furthermore...
I'm not going to be sued over the truth.
Now am I?
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Prove your claims that MOS has been based on
Amiga source code you idiot. Can you? NO, you CANNOT.
Even Ben Hermans, who is a LAWYER couldn't.
Amiga Inc COULDN'T! Will YOU be able to do so?
I REALLY don't think so.
BTW, I wonder if you would say the same if you knew
what happened with the Amiga Inc-bPlan case where
people blame laire for not giving MOS to A. Inc...
I also wonder what you would do if Amiga Inc didn't
want to develop AmigaOS, MorphOS was started at
such a time.
-
Hello Mountain_Myst,
As far as proving that MorphOS is illegal.
Don't have to.
Everybody with any sense knows it.
You don't need proof.
All you need to know is that it's true.
Sorry the life is not that simple. And so are not the things in the computer world.
At the beginning I thought it wasn't possible that MorphOS is legal (lot of months ago. Because I just used my "common sense") but since that time I informed myself and I saw that it wasn't so simple in the reality and I realised that in fact MorphOS is perfectly legal.
I'll not blaim you to not have informed yourself enough to realise that. But don't claim that what you think is the truth. As in that case it's not :) The common sense doesn't work for everything. Additionally common sense is a biased concept as it depends on how you see the world. But as you know the laws are not made by you, but by the governements :)
Regards
-
As long as you can't prove your truth, it's a truth only
according to your brain, not according to any law
in the universe. The most basic law in EVERY country
is that everyone is innocent until prooved other wise.
It is illegal to break that.
-
Ok...
Ok...
Let's tone it down a little bit.
Let me make this statement, and you analize it for me.
Either MorphOS is illegal with Amiga code, or MorphOS is an Amiga emulator.
Which will you say is closer to truth?
After all, wouldn't you agree that the makers of MorphOS shouldn't be using amiga code?
-
Neither. MorphOS is an OS on which A/Box runs, an
AROS based AmigaOS API clone that includes many
improvements over the original API. Not everything is
based on AROS, exec and other stuff are Ralph's work.
-
MorphOS is illegal.
Please post proof for this claim as this looks like a plot to sabotage Genesi and hurt it so badly they will go bust.
-
Ok.
Well don't you agree that in order to build an enviornment that acts exactly like another OS, you would actually have to look at origional code in order to understand how that OS works?
If this were not the case, how would you get your enviornment to run all the software that runs on that OS?
-
Either MorphOS is illegal with Amiga code, or MorphOS is an Amiga emulator.
How about c) None of the abova.
MorphOS is a clone, like AROS is. AROS is hardly an emulator, I can assure you. Neither is OpenBeOS an emulator of BeOS. Neither is Linux an emulator of UNIX System 5 Release 4.
These OS's are CLONES. They duplicate a systems API's in order to allow them to run the applications either natively or recompiled. Cloning is common, cloning is good. Even AmigaOS built on TripOS, an old UNIX clone. So you're claiming that AmigaOS is illegal and had to be using AT&T UNIX source code just to exist now, by that arguement.
-
They duplicate a systems API's in order to allow them to run the applications either natively or recompiled
yes.
And how would you duplicate code that you've never looked at?
and also, look up the definition for the word "duplicate".
and also look up the definition for the word "clone".
-
@ AmiGR
Amiga Inc COULDN'T!
Nobody at Amiga Inc ever claimed that they could not prove this. Based on the things I know personally, I would have gone the offensive road to protect the Amiga IP, if I owned it.
IMO the Amiga IP (patents, source code, brand, etc) must be aggressively protected. Amiga Inc had their reasons to wait, but IMO this approach is running out of arguments.
Only a court can give a decisive answer.
-
The AmigaOS is EXTREMELY well documented.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, is explained in
the autodocs and the programmer books. All the
functions, what they do and how they do it, can be found. With Windows, it would be difficult, not even
half of the OS is documented while AmigaOS
programmers have access to everything.
-
Hello Mountain_Myst,
Well don't you agree that in order to build an enviornment that acts exactly like another OS, you would actually have to look at origional code in order to understand how that OS works?
If this were not the case, how would you get your enviornment to run all the software that runs on that OS?
I'm in contact with the OpenBeOS Team which are exactly doing what you say: An OS that look exactly like BeOS and is fully source and binary compatible with.
I can tell you they don't use the BeOS sources at all and they can't as they can't have them. They simply use the BeOS Bible and lot of the other developpers documentation of BeOS.
You know how work an OS. The apps to communicate with the system use the OS APIs. What are APIs? It's an amount of tools/functions you use in your program to use some system services.
And for that you use the OS includes which are publicly available developpment elements (For Amiga int he Native Development Kits (NDK)). What are there is the OS includes?
- The tools/functions names
- The arguments they take
- The result returned
Even with just that you can reimplement an API. As you just have to recreate a program that have the same tools/functions with the same names, taking the same arguments and returning the same result.
Additionally if you don't really understand enough how the tools/function(s) work(s) to reimplement them, there are all the public development book (like the Rom Kernel Manuals) available that are explaining better what the purpose of each functions. All this together is far enough to reimplement APIs of an OS and so make a compatible OS with the original one.
I've seen proof of that many times, mainly in the BeOS world (with all the BeOS clones actually developped) and of course also in the Amiga world with AROS and MorphOS. If you want to check about OpenBeOS that they didn't use the sources of BeOS, just email them about that, you can find an email address in http://www.openbeos.org/
Regards
-
Oh come on, Amiga In just does NOT have the money to sue.
If they did, they would pay their employees and would
show up in court when one of these employees sued
them not to let the court make the default decision.:).
Don't pretend not to know what I'm talking about.
Moreover, their lawyers wouldn't pull out of court all
the time.
-
The AmigaOS is EXTREMELY well documented.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING
indeed.
And it's not legal to build a duplicate of all those things written therein.
Because all those sources that you mentioned have Amiga code all throughout.
They simply use the BeOS Bible and lot of the other developpers documentation of BeOS.
Which also includes source code.
And for that you use the OS includes which are publicly available developpment elements (For Amiga int he Native Development Kits (NDK)). What are there is the OS includes?
Which also includes source code.
Let me say it plainly here.
You cannot duplicate something without knowing what the origional really is.
You cannot duplicate code without knowing what the origional code is.
And to say that using Amiga functions and calls in your OS is not wrong, then what is?
-
Oh come on, Amiga In just does NOT have the money to sue
Well said.
And The people that built MorphOS is taking advantage of that.
God forbid if Amiga Inc. ever does come into real money.
If that happens, I don't think we would be having this discussion right now.
-
Buy the NDK and if you find a line of AmigaOS code
in it, I'll eat my tongue. No, includes are NOT source
code, they are API definitions needed to program for
the system.
-
Hello Mountain_Myst,
You cannot duplicate something without knowing what the origional really is. You cannot duplicate code without knowing what the origional code is.
But you can reinvent it. If you know how a wheel look like, you can do something that look like and works like the original wheel :) It's not be a duplication or a clone as there will be some differences, but it'll work liek the orginal one and can be used as a replacement of the original one. Same goes for the OS
And to say that using Amiga functions and calls in your OS is not wrong, then what is?
If what you mean is that putting same functions names and arguments is illegal, then you are wrong. Read the law :) Legally speaking there is no problem with that. ;)
Regards
-
In reality, this is a good example of what a clone would look like without knowing the real code.
Click Here (http://www.rocklyte.com/athene/index.html)
Run that program and have a look.
When you build an OS that emulates probably just as good as the origional, then something is very fishy indeed.
That's not even mentioning the fact about taking people's ideas, trademarks, and all the rest.
Amiga software was built to run on an Amiga system.
If you "duplicate" an OS to run software that is Amiga only, you have broken the law.
What if you built an OS that would run microsoft word?
Hmmm?
Bill Gates does have money, and he would completly destroy you.
-
And how would you duplicate code that you've never looked at?
You couldn't. Fortunately, nobody ever claimed they duplicated code, they duplicated the API.
And guess what, they *have* seen the API? Wanna know where? Huh? Huh?
How about the Autodocs? The RKM's? Books published either by Commodore or with Commodores permission.
So yes, they saw the API's, and duplicated them that way. I don't see any source involved here. Only books, tons of books.
-
What do you say Downix?
Huh?
Huh?
What if you built an OS that was able to run microsoft word?
And then you went into mass production with that OS.
What would happen to you as a company?
Huh?
Huh?
-
Hello,
In reality, this is a good example of what a clone would look like without knowing the real code.
Click Here
Run that program and have a look.
Btw Athene only try to recreate the look, not the APIs.
If you "duplicate" an OS to run software that is Amiga only, you have broken the law.
Wrong (see below).
What if you built an OS that would run microsoft word?
Hmmm?
Bill Gates does have money, and he would completly destroy you.
Well he tried with Lindows®, he sued them, but he lost ;-) Yes Lindows® can run Microsoft® Word® for Windows® under Linux ;-) and is marketed as a Microsoft® Windows® compatible OS.
Regards
-
Mountain Myst... Will you please stop your hatred campaign? It's pretty childish. I bet in 2 years you will lead such a campaign against Hyperion...
It may sound personal, but you have a fairly limited knowledge in the matters you express divine opinions about. A little bit more modesty please.
As to the G3>G4 statement I'm just as well pretty curious if they can prove it.
-
Hah...
I've used wine before, and it's pathetic.
It's nothing more than an emulator.
You say that MorphOS is not an emulator, but a clone OS.
It runs these programs even better than the origional platform.
There's a big difference there Frodon. ;-)
-
Sorry but you're wrong, AtheOS is not an AmigaOS
clone, it just looks like it. AROS and MorphOS are
AmigaOS clones. As long as you do it without having
seen the original source code, you can clone any API.
It's perfectly legal to do that. Lindows did it. MS lost
the court case against them. Wine does it every day.
Did they get sued by MS? MS has a A HELL OF A LOT
of money. Cloning an API for software interoperability
is legal.
-
Mountain Myst... Will you please stop your hatred campaign? It's pretty childish. I bet in 2 years you will lead such a campaign against Hyperion
Man, I don't hate these people.
Me and Frodon have been discussing Amiga things for a long time, and I don't hate him.
MorphOS does not phase me.
This is just a discussion on what is proper and what is not.
and furthermore...
Hyperion is licensed to do whatever they do by Amiga Inc.
I have no problem with Hyperion.
-
Hello,
Hah...
I've used wine before, and it's pathetic.
It's nothing more than an emulator.
From Official Wine FAQ: http://www.winehq.org/docs/wine-faq/t1.shtml#IS-WINE-AN-EMULATOR
"2.2. Is Wine an emulator?
Fortunately, no. Wine provides low-level binary compatibility, but currently only for OSes running on Intel-compatible chips."
You say that MorphOS is not an emulator, but a clone OS.
Yes just like Wine :)
It runs these programs even better than the origional platform.
Is it a compliment for MorphOS? ;-)
There's a big difference there Frodon
Sadly for you, no ;-)
Regards
-
Wine does not boot up from the bios.
Wine does not run on it's own.
Linux is the OS, and Wine is an emulator.
What the heck are you saying here?
Wine and MorphOS are so different in application, it's not even funny.
How can you say that Wine is not an emulator.
And how can you say that Wine and MorphOS are the same thing.
Rediculous.
Come on.
-
Hello,
How can you say that Wine is not an emulator.
No not me! The Wine developers! The guys who CREATED it! I think they know better than you what Wine is!
Regards
-
@Mountain_Myst
O.k. you say cloning an API is illegal ?
Lets see: Years and years ago a company named Phase5 did produce
some GFX-Cards, and add a SW called CyberGraphics to them.
Those cards were very popular and the SW was used by many Apps
that needed more than 256 colors.
Another company named VillageTronic also made GFX-cards, but SW-
support for those wasn't as good as on the Phase5-ones.
What did they do ? The hired someone to write a driver system
which should allow their cards to run all those apps written for
CyberGraphics. How did they do that ? Well simple, they looked
at the CGX-API and recreated it.
The result was called Picasso96 ......
-
Ok.
I see that this will go on and on.
Enough for me.
But don't be surprised if down the road, someone looks at you and says, "smile, you're on candid camera".
BTW...
Since I'm finished talking about this.
Is MorphOS open source?
Is the source code available to anyone?
Just a question...
Nothing implied.
-
Wine is not an emulator, because you don't run Windows in it
(like you run it in vmware, or AOS in UAE). You just run SW
written for Windows in it. Big difference.
-
Also, I take back all that I said about MorphOs being illegal.
That would have to be done in a court of law.
What I should have said is, " it is my opinion that MorphOS is illegal".
Because that's really what I meant anyway.
Sorry.
-
Mountain Myst, I think you mean what I have said before: that copying AmigaOS API was immoral, not illegal. At least, this is what I believe. That goes for all the other AOS clones/emulators.
-
Neither does the A/Box. Quark boots first, the A/Box
task is started afterwards.
-
Mountain Myst, I think you mean what I have said before: that copying AmigaOS API was immoral, not illegal. At least, this is what I believe
Yes, I believe so.
Since I'm not a judge, I cannot go on arueing about it.
But yes, In my view, it is immoral.
-
I expected you not to answer... How long are you
gonna keep this off the users' ears Mike?
People need to know the truth about the current
Amiga Inc situation.
-
Hmm, immoral... So and so, it could be called immoral.
-
@ AmiGR
expected you not to answer...
Sorry for serving/eating dinner!? You must believe I am married to my monitor or something!? :-o
People need to know the truth about the current Amiga Inc situation.
The truth is:
- Amiga Inc is very unlikely to bankrupt anytime soon, despite various damaging efforts by Genesi staff.
- Amiga will answer appropriately to Genesi's recent legal complaint.
- The issues Amiga Inc has with regard to the ABOX, are not the "re-implementation" of APIs.
-
well....
Hmmm.....
:-o
No comment on that one.
I can't wait to hear what it's all about.
It won't surprise me whatever it is.
-
> - Amiga Inc is very unlikely to bankrupt anytime
> soon
Very good for their employees and lawyers then.
-
Where do all these evil companies come from man?
I think Germany has a BUNCH of them.
Boy, if I could just win the lottery...
Amiga Inc. wouldn't have to worry quite as much.
-
As I imagined... YOU DID NOT ANSWER.
*WHY* didn't McEwen pay his employee (I won't say
his name, you know him, I don't want to get him in a
flamewar without his consent) and *WHY* didn't he
show up in court when that employee sued him if
he did have the money to pay him AND the money for
the lawyer? :)
I you REALLY love Amiga Inc, you'd better SPIT IT OUT
before I DO! The remaints of this community needs
anything BUT liars! Yes, Mike, if you STILL cover this
story up you're no better than a LIAR!.
-
Yes we all know. Why are you always repeating? Is
this the only advantage these boards have?
People follows “the name”…
-
This clearly shows how far the blind Amiga followers are willing to go to spread crap to try and destroy the rival.
-
@ AmiGR
As I imagined... YOU DID NOT ANSWER.
I did, I have told you the current status of Amiga Inc.
*WHY* didn't he show up in court when that employee sued him if he did have the money to pay him AND the money for
the lawyer? :)
I don't understand what that smiley should be good for. IMO the story is quite without dignity and involves much back-stabbing.
Some time ago, Amiga Inc was struggling and employees were told to be paid when proper funding arrived. The specific employee was asked to leave, but he wouldn't.
After a while Genesi comes into the picture, when confidential information regarding these internal problems comes to their knowledge and offers to fund a lawsuit against Amiga Inc for this employee. Due to the issues mentioned earlier, no proper defence was prepared and thus they lost by default.
Bill McEwen made various *very large* personal sacrifices to keep Amiga Inc going and afterwards managed to secure some additional funding.
Just like Jay Miner, Bill has done and still does everything he can to keep his Amiga dream alive and luckily they are currently in a better position today.
-
This clearly shows how far the blind Amiga followers and Amiga inc hero worhipers are willing to spread so much crap to try and destroy the rival.
You really should stop useing the Blind word everytime disagree with someone over Amiga.Inc OR Genesi.
You come across as imature.
And not cos use used the Blind word but cos you use it so offten.
You need to moderate your comments to not have such a bad taste with repeat phrases every comment cos ppl just dont take you seriously.
Priceless,Blind,Worshipers,Followers.
-
Hmmm correcting me again, pathetic.
So what would you call people who think of Amiga inc as the best thing since sliced bread?
-
Hmmm correcting me again, pathetic.
So what would you call people who think of Amiga inc as the best thing since sliced bread?
I did not correct you.
You better go read a dictionary to find the meaning.
But no one here is saying Amiga.inc is the best thing since sliced bread.
-
I don't understand what that smiley should be good for. IMO the story is quite without dignity and involves much back-stabbing.
--
Not paying an employee and keep telling him that
you'll pay him IS backstabbing...
Some time ago, Amiga Inc was struggling and employees were told to be paid when proper funding arrived.
--
"Some time ago"...
The specific employee was asked to leave, but he wouldn't.
--
You cannot fire an employee if you owe him money.
It's illegal.
After a while Genesi comes into the picture, when confidential information regarding these internal problems comes to their knowledge and offers to fund a lawsuit against Amiga Inc for this employee.
--
Is that what McEwen told you? Heh... discrediting
Genesi even for your internal afairs... PATHETIC.
Due to the issues mentioned earlier, no proper defence was prepared and thus they lost by default.
--
No proper defence doesn't necesserily mean NOT
GO TO COURT AT ALL! Neither does it mean NOT
paying the employee AFTER losing the court:)
Bill McEwen made various *very large* personal sacrifices to keep Amiga Inc going and afterwards managed to secure some additional funding.
--
We shall see that.
Just like Jay Miner, Bill has done and still does everything he can to keep his Amiga dream alive and luckily they are currently in a better position today.
--
!!!! DO NOT PUT JM IN THE SAME LINE AS BILL MCEWEN !!!!
Jay Miner is the father of the Amiga, what did Bill do
about it? Ruin the name...
-
@MikeB
Well... You'll have you belifs and I have mine. But don't yu dare to compare good, tallented and honest man like Jay Miner to this --- This McEwen. :shocked:
-
Post Removed by Targhan: Personal Slander is not allowed.
It wasn't slander, it was comedy...
-
>Some time ago, Amiga Inc was struggling and
>employees were told to be paid when proper
>funding arrived. The specific employee was asked
>to leave, but he wouldn't.
"Oh you want money? Better leave!"
>Bill McEwen made various *very large* personal
>sacrifices
Obviously not. Or was he also unprepared for the
second lawsuit?
And what about the current one? Also unprepared?
>luckily they are currently in a better position today
Very good. Then they can pay him now. Do you know
the expression "delaying insolvency"?
-
@ JoannaK
But don't yu dare to compare good, tallented and honest man like Jay Miner to this --- This McEwen
And do you know Mister McEwen personally? You may not share his vision for an Amiga future and maybe you don't think he is a good CEO, but he does do his absolute best to keep his Amiga dream going.
Jay Miner had to jump through several loop-holes himself to keep the original Amiga project alive. I have absolutely no trouble comparing the two. And I hope Bill will deliver as well.
-
@ AmiGR
Not paying an employee and keep telling him that
When there was no money, he could not be paid. It's quite simple actually.
You cannot fire an employee if you owe him money.
And as you know he wasn't fired, he was simply *asked* to leave for the good of the company.
Anyway AmiGR wanted me to fill in the more complete story. So, there you have it.
-
@skyraker
Woo.. After so much hard work you managed to get into my public web page and found a picture.. Gee.. You people are *SO* clever. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Actually.. it's Richard M Stallman signing my Linux- T-shirt couple years ago. He was here couple years ago (summer 2001 I think) and was talking about GNU (http://www.gnu.org/), copyrights etc.. Really interesting person even though I don't agree on all of his ideas.
And cause I by now assume you would not belive me even on this one.. I'll uploaded full picture there for you to see.. 800*600 (81k)
HERE (http://www.iti.fi/jkurki/P7150007.jpg)
And yes.. I have lost quite a lot weight since those days. Go now and try to find picture of me and Jeff Minter (Mr LLamasoft), it's from this January :-P
@MikeP .. Well, I have not met either of them and it's bit diifficult with Jay Miner nowdays due obvious reasons. And to be honest McEwen ain't among my list of people I ever want to see. Carl Sassenrath and -RJ- Mical are on that list though and I hope to see RJ sometime later this year.
-
@JoannaK
actually darlin' it took one google tot get that... even a MOS user could manage that...... anyway I never commented on your weight.... [ edit by skyraker]
i can't believe i got hoofed out of a MOS Irc chan for that post... you guys are soooo xenophobic....
-
That's not how professional companies work:)
"We've got no money to give you, go away".
-
@Skyraker
Come on man there is no need for personal and offensive insults towards members on this site,
Disgracefull.
-
@gadd
Thats rich coming from you.!
Besides, some poeple troll and troll and wonder why everyone else gets wound up.
I don't see a personal insult in there... unless you'd like to point it out for me
-
Well, I don't have any problem with comparing Bill McEwen to Jay Miner.
I'll stand up for the man here.
I would love to meet Mr. Bill McEwen, no matter what is said.
I would also love to meet Mr. Bill Buck so I could poke him in the eye with my finger.
(I wouldn't really)
Genesi is no better than Haage and Partner in my book.
Are Herald Frank and Bill Buck brothers?
-
Thats rich coming from you.!
I have never insulted anyone from this site.
I don't see a personal insult in there... unless you'd like to point it out for me
You cant? lol, well let me quote,
Insult #1
I think JoannaK is trying to write" Morphos or i'll die a virgin" over a boing ball.......
Insult #2
anyway I never commented on your weight.... but now you mention it.. nice chin(s)
They are personal insults which must be removed immediately by you or a moderator, this aint ANN.
Are Herald Frank and Bill Buck brothers?
Yes :-D
-
Oh crap...
I hope you're not serious about Bill Buck and Herald Frank being brothers.
If it is true, please don't even restate it.
It's too much to bear right now.
I'm about sick to death of these people.
-
@Mountain_Myst
Forgot the :-D,
The way they are acting it looks like it though.
Below comment from Ann
Posted by bbrv (xxx.xx.xxx.xx) on 23-Feb-2003 17:40:10
Hi Ben, it is time for a showdown
Yeah right still stuck in the western days :-)
So are we really expected to take them seriously? no way
-
What exactly is it about the Amiga?
AmigaOne and OS4 have the capabilites to bring the Amigan spirit back to the world.
But everytime Amiga is close to succeeding, someone like Bill Buck or Herald Frank comes along and tries to destroy Amiga.
They get a loyal bunch of people to follow them.
Make them believe strange things.
And attack all that is good and potentially succesful.
I've got to get the deathbed vigil and see why this curse is upon Amiga.
I hope to God that someday soon, the curse is broken, and Amiga can once again put itself in the mainstream of the technical world.
And all these people that want to pull down the community and destroy the Amiga name...
I hope that they are brought down by thier own devices.
-
Mountain_Myst, shut the fúck up.
You can't 'steal' an API or an ABI, nor is one prevented from reimplementing one from publicly available specifications.
You're so full of shít my eyes are wincing.
-
Hey Strobe.
You shut up.
Your eyes are wincing because you're a punk kid, no doubt.
You wouldn't know what morals were if they reached up and slapped the bag off your head.
-
@JoannaK
Very cool. I've always wanted to meet Mr. Stallman, but never had the opportunity. My friend YG (from the Freedom CPU org) met him some years back.
(see some pictures from his trip to boston here: http://www.mime.univ-paris8.fr/~whygee/f-cpu.html#boston and yes, that is my car sorry to say)
-
> Hi Ben, it is time for a showdown
Yeah, I just saw that little stunt over at ANN. Very clever move by Buck, I must say. This way, he evades having to answer the requests he's been getting to back up his recent performance claims. Moreover, for the people who so badly want to trust him, the fact that Hyperion won't take this challenge will probably suffice as proof that his claims are true. Yes, I'm pretty sure that Hyperion won't take it. Not because Buck is right, but because it makes no sense for them to do so:
*The Teron/AmigaOne is not a Hyperion product.
*Hyperion would have to allocate technical personnel to participate properly. With OS4 already behind schedule, this would hurt both Hyperion and the Amiga community.
An additional bonus for Buck is that with this statement, he presents the Pegasos as a fully comparable alternative to the AmigaOne. Never mind that the bloody thing won't run AmigaOS.
Nice one.
Kay
-
It really doesn't matter to me which is faster in benchmarks.
The fact is...
I wouldn't run MorphOS (especially now) on my system if you held a gun to my head.
These kind of people are what the Amiga community does not need.
They only love to destroy what good is left in the community.
For all that is good, I hope Genesi soon leaves the scene.
-
Poster: Kay Date: 2003/2/23 20:25:44
An additional bonus for Buck is that with this statement, he presents the Pegasos as a fully comparable alternative to the AmigaOne. Never mind that the bloody thing won't run AmigaOS.
That's alright, OS4, other then developer's, aren't running on Teron mobos either.
Dammy
-
Poster: Mountain_Myst Date: 2003/2/23 20:32:08
hese kind of people are what the Amiga community does not need.
They only love to destroy what good is left in the community.
For all that is good, I hope Genesi soon leaves the scene.
We don't need whiners either, but stick around, you may learn something eventually.
-
@ MikeB
"Most definitely, stay tuned."
Oh, I will be :)
-
@ Herewegoagain
" I don't think this is as likely. The Terron boards are being marketed by Terrasoft for the Linux market, and Eyetech for the Linux and Amiga market. The Teron boards and the Articia have recieved IBM's "Ready for IBM Technology" approval. See link below.
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/wired/alliances/mai_logic.html"
Thanks for the site. This is good news :)
"So I don't think the Teron series will be disappearing anytime soon. I do hope, however, that they are already working on the next revision using the newer Articia P bringing AGP4x and DDR among other things. "
Yes, that would be great to see a path to upgrade to it.
-
@everyone
Before you consider "ready for IBM" good news, please read the legal definition of what the Ready for IBM ceritifcation is.
I might point out choice segments, such as:
The material presented here is based on information obtained from the software provider. No effort has been made to independently verify the accuracy of the information, including any information relating to the functions, quality, and performance of the provider's products or services as well as the availability date.
To repeat NO EFFORT HAS BEEN MADE TO INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION. Mai submitted a spec sheet on the Articia, and it fit the definition by the IBM rulebook.
So please, don't show this IBM "Ceritifcation" again, as it's not a ceritification at all, but just a product listing in a catelog stating that according to the whitepapers, it will work with a singular specific IBM microprocessor, the 750FX. In short, it says to the effect of buyer beware.
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Ok.
Well don't you agree that in order to build an enviornment that acts exactly like another OS, you would actually have to look at origional code in order to understand how that OS works?
If this were not the case, how would you get your enviornment to run all the software that runs on that OS?
I dont think that is the case. First and most obvious you have to impliment the 68k emulator. Then you have to design a system to intercept calls that the OS would have taken care of. Operating systems are normaly well documented so that people can program for it.
E.g say a peice of software uses a function fopen() ... it doesnt matter how that function is implemented, as long as when its re- implimented (in the OS emulation) it satisfys the original requirements such as paramaters and return values.
Then when that peice of software makes that call, the function is still executed be it not how the the old function works but still requires the same paramaters and still returns the same values based on its input as the original.
All that is requires is decent OS documentation! which i would think all OSes would have!!!
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> That's alright, OS4, other then developer's, aren't running on Teron mobos either.
I said that the Pegasos "won't" run Amiga OS. I see this was a bit confusing to you. I'll clarify:
"won't" = "will not", "is not going to"
The Pegasos WON'T run AmigaOS. The AmigaOne certainly WILL. This means that if I buy an AmigaOne today, I know that I will at some point get AmigaOS for it. If I buy a Pegasos, I am probably stuck with MorphOS. Together with you, Buck and Amorel from ANN. Not a pleasant scenario.
Kay
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Kay said
I buy a Pegasos, I am probably stuck with MorphOS. Together with you, Buck and Amorel from ANN. Not a pleasant scenario.
:lol: :lol:
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Herewegoagain:
I am not sure what to make of this Aritica chip??? I hope that Eyetech has a better working relationhip with Mai Logic. I hope that they were/are able to reslove any problems with the Aritica chip. If not then maybe they will need to change thier plans??
I don't think this is as likely. The Terron boards are being marketed by Terrasoft for the Linux market, and Eyetech for the Linux and Amiga market. The Teron boards and the Articia have recieved IBM's "Ready for IBM Technology" approval.
Read this and consider how much this approval means:
http://www.vgr.com/mediator/Pressrelease9.txt (http://www.vgr.com/mediator/Pressrelease9.txt) :-?
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@ Kay
Hi Ben, it is time for a showdown
It is almost unbelievable and very silly to see the way Buck acts as a little child instead like a CEO. After personally asking him for details regarding his "tests" he comes up with yet another wildwest cover up.
Surely his "tests" did not include Altivec optimised software. The Velocity Engine, as widely known is the main selling point of a G4 over a G3. And I sincerely would like to know how he can test hardware he does not have access to (latest G4 AmigaOne-XE or Teron)?
@ Billy the kid
Bucky boy, please stop wasting the time of the Amiga team, as you have been doing for quite some time now! They have a job to do, and you may watch from the sidelines until you release your "Pegasos2 with April6".
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An additional bonus for Buck is that with this statement, he presents the Pegasos as a fully comparable alternative to the AmigaOne.
Can Pegy run "AmigaOS 4.0"?
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@MikeB
Surely his "tests" did not include Altivec optimised software.
It's not about the G4 itself, it's about the - regarding Genesi (who otherwise hardly would want to exchange Peg1/Ap1-boards to Ap2-ones) - still buggy ArticiaS.
@Hammer
Can Pegy run "AmigaOS 4.0"?
Once OS4 nears completion and a third party (for example KDH, Vesalia, GGS, CC, etc.) applies for such an AI-licence and buys some Pegasos-boards, one should expect this, yes.
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It's not about the G4 itself, it's about the - regarding Genesi (who otherwise hardly would want to exchange Peg1/Ap1-boards to Ap2-ones) - still buggy ArticiaS.
Well, history has told me that Bill mislead people with regard to earlier bugs. So I don't consider him a reliable source and would only trust information provided by independent 3rd parties, especially regarding "tests" with so few provided details.
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So I don't consider him a reliable source and would only trust information provided by independent 3rd parties, espcially regarding "tests" with so few provided details.
That's why I think Bill & Raquel's initiative for a "showdown" on ANN (http://www.ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=news&file=1046031327.msg) is a good way for all of us to see ourselves if Genesi is right about it or not. We just need such an independent third party now.
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Can Pegy run "AmigaOS 4.0"?
btw. Now it's a perfect chance for Genesi to include a rom socket for AOS4 enabler/dongle in the peg2. And perhaps a ROM switcher in the BIOS/bootROM.
(and at the same time the different northbridge makes it more difficult to pirate A1 AOS4 version to peg2 than to get it running on peg1)
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If it is hardware vs hardware then why challenge Hyperion? they should challenge Eyetech to a duel
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Read this and consider how much this approval means:
http://www.vgr.com/mediator/Pressrelease9.txt
You are not comparing the same thing. That only outlines the use of the trademark "PPC Logo". It has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
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@Mountani_myst
Well, now is really not a good time for you to be preaching MorphOS.
As you can see, there hasn't been people on here in the last couple of days saying, "Haaaaa, MorphOS rulez you".
They must have been a little humbled by the recent news from Genesi.
As far as the fix goes.
BULL CRAP!
They blew the hatch, man.
They screwed the pooch.
And it's strange to me that all this time, you've been away.
But now when people are starting to know what Genesi is all about, here you are again.
Who are you anyway.
Does Bill Buck pay you for your services?
And it's not speculation.
It's fact, btw.
and furthermore...
MorphOS is illegal.
But that never bothered me much anyway, as I don't see it as a real threat.
And don't give me this crap about api this and api that.
That's horse hocky and you know it.
-----------------------------------
It really doesn't matter to me which is faster in benchmarks.
The fact is...
I wouldn't run MorphOS (especially now) on my system if you held a gun to my head.
These kind of people are what the Amiga community does not need.
They only love to destroy what good is left in the community.
For all that is good, I hope Genesi soon leaves the scene.
Don't take it too personal, but I got myself bloated of your clueless posts...
Your arguments are childish and full of nothing. More than that you are continuesly prooving how much of a pathetic, clueless, ignorant, fanatic, blind follower of "THE_NAME" you are!!!
I wonder how Frodon still tolarates your behavior when you accuse him LIKE THAT!
Yes, I am a Pegasos/MorphOS AND Amiga enthusiast my self, but I don't go to public forums like you offencing people like this!
The only thing the Amiga community does not need right now is people like you and Kay...
If you can't accept the fact that another company that has not access to the "THE_NAME" rights, knows better, develops better AND delivers better IS NOT OUR PROBLEM! Take it or leave it!
So shut the f*** up unless you have something else to say except worshiping "THE_NAME"...
Enough said, back to normal mode now :-D
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> The only thing the Amiga community does not need right now is people like you and Kay...
And exactly how am I damaging the community? Please explain.
Kay
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No Kay, you're doing a fine job.
It's the axis of Evil that needs to leave, and that doesn't include you.
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To repeat NO EFFORT HAS BEEN MADE TO INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION. Mai submitted a spec sheet on the Articia, and it fit the definition by the IBM rulebook.
So please, don't show this IBM "Ceritifcation" again, as it's not a ceritification at all, but just a product listing in a catelog stating that according to the whitepapers, it will work with a singular specific IBM microprocessor, the 750FX. In short, it says to the effect of buyer beware.
LOL.... You would love for us to forget about everything except Pegasos wouldn't you. Funny to see MOS supporters squirm so much. Yeah I know, everyone puts disclaimers in their stuff. It's called a general purpose weasle clause. Everyone has them to avoid possible lawsuits. But let me just quote Lisa Su of IBM again:
"MAI Logic has successfully developed optimized supporting devices and reference designs for PowerPCTM microprocessor application platforms which have passed a rigorous PowerPCTM compatibility validation testing process by IBM Microelectronics labs,"said Lisa Su, Director of PowerPCTM and emerging products, IBM Microelectronics.
Now, READ THE PART WHERE IT SAYS "which have passed a rigorous PowerPCTM compatibility validation testing process by IBM Microelectronics labs" WILL YOU NOW CALL HER A LIAR?
She says CLEARLY that it it has passed RIGOROUS tests BY IBM LABS! I don't know how much clearer I could make that. If you don't beleive it then that's your choice, but don't tell me about how you don't want to hear about this certification again. I personally don't want to hear about MOS again, but I don't have much choice do I?
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@Kay
And exactly how am I damaging the community? Please explain.
Kay
Sorry if my fireball took you also. By no means I have anything personal against you (or Mountain_Myst), I really thing you are ok.
I really don't like though reading posts in these forums from people that are just blind followers of one or the other and can't be happy with anything good happen's in the Amiga community because it is not from "THE_NAME"...
So I mentioned your name in my previus post, because I think you (and others I don't remember right now) are like that people to some degree.
Sorry about my phraze though, I didn't mean you are bad to the Amiga community. I don't really believe this as I think we all are good, it was just a not good "phraze"...
Sorry again about that.
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And for anyone who wants to read about the "Ready for IBM Technology" overview it's here:
http://www.developer.ibm.com/welcome/microelectronics/rfit.html (http://www.developer.ibm.com/welcome/microelectronics/rfit.html)
And this is the Portfolio of the companies in alliance with IBM, which includes Mai Logic:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/wired/alliances/rfit.html (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/wired/alliances/rfit.html)
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> I really don't like though reading posts in these forums from people that are just blind
> followers of one or the other and can't be happy with anything good happen's in the Amiga
> community because it is not from "THE_NAME"... So I mentioned your name in my previus post,
> because I think you (and others I don't remember right now) are like that people to some
> degree.
I have explained why I have chosen Amiga over Pegasos many times already, so I won't repeat it. What I can say, however, is that while I recognize that I probably have some bias towards the name of the platform I've been supporting over the last decade, I have made every effort not to be blinded by it when making decisions.
> Sorry about my phraze though, I didn't mean you are bad to the Amiga community.
Apology accepted.
Kay :-)
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btw. Now it's a perfect chance for Genesi to include a rom socket for AOS4 enabler/dongle in the peg2. And perhaps a ROM switcher in the BIOS/bootROM.
Not quite answering the question. Such statements are only “hopeful” statements. A “chance” is quite different to “we plan to do XYZ compatibility”
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btw. Now it's a perfect chance for Genesi to include a rom socket for AOS4 enabler/dongle in the peg2. And perhaps a ROM switcher in the BIOS/bootROM.
What BIOS? The BootROM you're talking about is the very thing you're talking about changing. The Teron and Pegasos use two different BootROM mechanisms. Teron's use Hyperions new PPCBoot system while Pegasos uses the industry standard OpenFirmware approach. To allow the Pegasos to use the A1 dongle you'd break the design, resulting in the cards you've carefully elected to install no longer operating in their prescribed manner.
You see, OpenFirmware is a similar concept to AutoConfig, with an OS-neutral basic configuration driver incorporated into the ROM on both the motherboard and the peripheral cards. This provides a near complete HAL to allow the Operating Systems using it to streamline the hardware validation process and thereby improve system performance. The OF tackles all of this, including a much improved plug n play system on par with that of the original Amiga.
PPCBoot, from what I've read, appears to utilize the x86 boot ROM's on most cards to provide a crude portmap of the card. The OS still must take care of the I/O arbitration, which cards get what resources, mapping out the system call layout, etc. While on the surface, being able to utilize the x86 card ROM's is good in that you don't require an OF compatable card, the end result is more overhead for any operating systems utilizing it.
Of course, you already knew this, right?
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@Turrican
I really don't like though reading posts in these forums from people that are just blind followers of one or the other and can't be happy with anything good happen's in the Amiga community because it is not from "THE_NAME"...
Well, I don't hate you either.
But I do hate the fact that you call me a blind follower of AmigaOne/OS4, as if I didn't have a reason for choosing one or the other.
That is most rediculous.
I simply don't like the way Genesi and all thier people do buisness.
I don't like the way they are handeling thier OS.
I don't like the tactics being used to try and destroy Amiga Inc.
I love the way Amiga Inc. are wanting to handle thier system and software.
I love the dongle code.
I really believe that Hyperion can deliver a MUCH more pleasurable experience than Genesi, and the makers of MorhOS can.
I can go on and on and on, but I won't.
I have made my choice based upon what I see, and it's not proper for you to say that I blindly follow Amiga Inc. and Hyperion.
I can just as easily say that you blindly follow Genesi, but I'm not going to.
You must see something in Genesi that you like or you wouldn't be following them in thier goals.
I see nothing at all that I like about the company, but on the other hand I see a lot that I like about the other side.
It's called choice.
I've made my choice, and I didn't do it blindly.
Thank you.
and furthermore...
I personally think that it is immoral to clone another OS and use it for your own personal gain.
If you don't agree with me then fine.
But that doesn't make you right, neither does it make me right.
But I have my opinion and you have yours.
That's the way it should be, and that's the way it is.
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@Frondon
Hi, sorry for addressing this at you Frondon, but you seem to be one of the best informed of the MOS crowd......
Reading through bbrvs post, something occured to me, isn't this quote;
We need a bootable bundled distro and Mac-on-Linux.
a bit dangerous considering Apple's well known zeal for suing and c-and-d'ing ANYONE who messes with their IP / Licences / Secrets? Mac-On-Linux is technically legal on Apple hardware running Linux, but not on none Apple hardware (AOne has this problem too, so i'm not being biased)
@Mountain_Myst
If you still don't belive that clean-room API clones can be made, what about Mono, the open source clone of Microsoft's .NET strategy? Or the cloned implementation if the IBM-PC BIOS without which no-one but IBM would be making PC's (Ever wonder where the term PC-Clone came from?)
How can you say that Wine is not an emulator.
Heh, The fact that WINE is a recursive acronym for "WINE Is Not an Emulator" should give some people a clue. Maybe not though..........
Just my $0.02
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Read the post above.
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Sorry, last time I refreshed the page you hadn't posted.
I wasn't having a go at you by the way, I was just citing some clear examples of where cloning was happening. Too many people round here say "its this way" or "its that way" without offering any reasons or evidence that it is so.
Cheers :pint:
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@AmiGR
As a CURRENT Amiga employee, I say to you that Amiga's employee relations are none of your business unless you are an Amiga employee or contractor. However, you are neither and you are now treading into my space, so mind your own business. We employees didn't ask for your comments and we don't need them on this issue. :-x
If said employee wants to speak on their own behalf, that's his or her perogative. But coming from anyone other than the individual, and NOT any third party, is just an exercise in FUD for the masses and a feeble attempt to defame Amiga in order to further a cause of gaining mindshare and opinion.
-
It's true. A truth is not FUD, no matter who spreads it.
Ok, my dear metalhead? BTW, tell McEwen to pay him.
Your last chance to get me and the majority of the
Amiga community was the inhouse OS4. Instead you
guys chose to play around with us without doing
anything. You're NOTHING for me, you're a ghost.
The only companies that might get us now are
Hyperion and Genesi.
You failed...
Btw... Why are you so angry? Money probs? ;-)
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Would you stop already?
If you've got something to say, then spit it out man.
Otherwise, shut the crap up!
Amiga Inc. hasn't blown anything.
They are still the leaders as long as they are in buisness.
I haven't seen them say they are shutting down yet.
So please.
If you have a wild hair up your butt, then get it out!
SAY IT or SHUT UP!
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I said everything I had to say. If you want to know
more about this case do some research.
Amiga Inc is not the leader anymore.
They are nothing. They produce nothing that interests
most Amiga users. Hyperion does, Genesi does,
*AMIGA* Inc doesn't... It's a shame... to be even called
"Amiga"
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@AmiGR
IMHO, it simply is none of your business who Amiga pays or doesn't pay and for what reason.
As for the rest, only time will tell.
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@AmigaGR
Oh you just wish that to be true don't you? LOL.
Too bad it's a slant short of reality.
-
As far as I'm concerned, Amiga Inc. is in as much control as they can be under the circtumstances.
I believe in thier vision, and what they have said concerning AmigaOne/OS4.
No problems here, except for the fact that they are broke, and certain people are trying to destroy them.
I hope, of course, that backfires on those certain people.
As far as Amiga Inc. not paying one of it's employees...
I haven't heard that person complain about anything.
Maybe that person was paid.
Maybe that person didn't.
But it needs to be that particular person complaining, and not you.
If that person wants to speak, I'll listen.
But if that person doesn't want to speak, then it must not be as important as you say it is.
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It already backfired... to Amiga Inc...
They've been ASKING for it for a VERY long time with
their legal threats and defamation. It backfired...
THEY are being sued.
And btw... that person doesn't speak on FORUMS for
his own reasons. This does not mean that he didn't
talk about it neither that he does not think that it's
important. He sued McEwen AND won already.
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@AmiGR
The only one defaming anyone or anything at this pont in time is you. You have no idea or information of what the scenario is or was and as long as it is you, a third party, talking about a situation which you were not involved in, it will continue to be one-sided FUD.
Seriously, what purpose does it serve for you to spread garbage without proof? Because company X and employee Y has a fallout, does that make the company fit a certain mold and henceforth should be treated with contempt? If that's the case, quick, quit your job and petition all the employers of the world! You'd better not get a job at anytime in the near or far future. There isn't a single employer who hasn't had a fallout with an employee.
So, you are simply making a big issue out of nothing -- nothing as far as the community of Amiga users are concerned. Just because one employee is gone and had a "bad parting" doesn't mean the company is gone, bad or is treating employees badly -- not that it is anyone's business but the company, employee and their legal representatives. You simply don't have all the facts because someone wants you to believe things from a certain perspective.
I have nothing against you personally but you really do need to get a life and mind your own business. I mean, if you don't want to purchase Amiga/Eyetech/Hyperion product, then that's fine and completely your perogative but your consistent flame-baiting and "facts" without proof, in an issue that doesn't concern you, is just getting to be a bore.
..but who would expect anything different considering the (ahem) group that wants to twist things to suit their agenda? :lol:
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HMetal, the problem is not "not payment".
It's lying. McEwen was telling him that he was
actually paying his medical insurance at all times...
till he got to use it and get a VERY nice not payed bill
of several thousant dollars.
And about products... I bought SEVERAL products
from Eyetech, I've got ALL games Hyperion developed (beta-tested 2.5 of them) and I'm happy
about that.
I also bought your.... party pack thing. I was lucky
someone bought it off me. Yes, yes, I also have
OS3.5 and 3.9. 3.9 was supposed to be an Amiga Inc.
product wasn't it (even while H&P made it).
So yes, it does VERY WELL concern me. I am happy
that OS4 is off your hands now as I will finally see it
on my shelf now.
Oh, by the way, is the 3sat story fictual?
The "1st of September: Get legal or get shut down" thingie? VARIOUS attempts to stop people from
going MOS "cause it's illegal?". Come on. These are
FACTS. And I do have facts to base my "employee"
story but I don't want to disclose his name, as I have
to in order to give more info. Please HMetal, people
need to know the truth. THE TRUTH. Nothing of these
would be said right now if Amiga Inc was open. They
decided to take another, cover up, route. These are
the consequencies. Don't blame anyone else about
this, I was **VERY** pro-Amiga Inc.
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@AmiGR
Your mixing up issues wich dont have anything to do with you with ones that do.
Dont use the issues that do have things to do with you as an excuse to talk about stuff that does not.
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@AmiGR
I don't have to tell you "the truth" about anything relating to Amiga employees and, actually, I am prevented by NDA about even disclosing information of this nature unless given permission to divulge such. The information you are "entitled" to as Amiga releases it is on www.amiga.com, os.amiga.com, amigadev.net and amiga-anywhere.com.
I will repeat: Amiga's employee relations are none of your business. There is nothing to "cover up" because you have no right to it in the first place.
By the way, if you were as "pro Amiga" and wary of "bad practices" as you claim you were, then an employee dispute wouldn't shake that. Also, a "pro Amiga" user would stand by Amiga's decision to protect our intellectual property and our right to prevent piracy through perfectly acceptable practices as opposed to those who, by nature of losing, pretty much gave people a push to pirate AmigaOS 4 when it is released.
You may accuse Amiga of many things but we are at least professional enough to not advocate pirating of another product or even hint at such a practice by mentioning it in a public message or, for that matter, any other message.
P.S. AmigaOS is not "out of Amiga's hands" as you claim and, yes, it WILL hit the shelves. To assume that Amiga employee relations with 1 former employee have any bearing on the state of AmigaOS 4 is all too laughable. :lol:
So much for your argument(s).
-
I don't have to tell you "the truth" about anything relating to Amiga employees and, actually, I am prevented by NDA about even disclosing information of this nature unless given permission to divulge such. The information you are "entitled" to as Amiga releases it is on www.amiga.com, os.amiga.com, amigadev.net and amiga-anywhere.com.
--
And people waiting for their t-shirts are entitled to
information about it but this information is not on
those sites. Are they NOT entitled to that information?
I will repeat: Amiga's employee relations are none of your business. There is nothing to "cover up" because you have no right to it in the first place.
--
Yeah, right.
By the way, if you were as "pro Amiga" and wary of "bad practices" as you claim you were, then an employee dispute wouldn't shake that. Also, a "pro Amiga" user would stand by Amiga's decision to protect our intellectual property and our right to prevent piracy through perfectly acceptable practices as opposed to those who, by nature of losing, pretty much gave people a push to pirate AmigaOS 4 when it is released.
--
He didn't advocate piracy. As he said in the thread
itself "If it is to be done, why not do it legally?".
You may accuse Amiga of many things but we are at least professional enough to not advocate pirating of another product or even hint at such a practice by mentioning it in a public message or, for that matter, any other message.
--
Read above.
P.S. AmigaOS is not "out of Amiga's hands" as you claim and, yes, it WILL hit the shelves.
--
Well, that's not what I read in BH's interview. As soon
as you go bankupt OS4 and the right to use the name
is theirs. I'm happy about that. Yes, it will hit the selves
as I already said. It will also hit my own shelf as well.
To assume that Amiga employee relations with 1 former employee have any bearing on the state of AmigaOS 4 is all too laughable.
--
Did I do that in my comment? I *REALLY* don't think
so.
So much for your argument(s).
--
Right... Learn to read.
-
And people waiting for their t-shirts are entitled to
information about it but this information is not on
those sites. Are they NOT entitled to that information?
The people who purchased such are getting their information and more will follow in THEIR club newsletter. Those who are entitled to it, will receive it. That includes you, if you are a member. Those who are not in Club Amiga are not entitled to anything w.r.t the club except to know what it offers or doesn't offer, in case they are interested in joining.
He didn't advocate piracy. As he said in the thread
itself "If it is to be done, why not do it legally?".
Give me a break. I read the posts here and on ann.lu. I wasn't born yesterday nor was anyone who read it and saw through it.
Well, that's not what I read in BH's interview. As soon
as you go bankupt...[...]
You assume way too much. :lol:
..the rest of your nonsense relies on this silly theory that Amiga will be going bankrupt, something that won't be happening no matter what BB tries. :roflmao: