Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Kees on February 04, 2003, 05:34:21 PM
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In a comment on ann.lu, Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco confirmed that Genesi SARL has taken legal action against Amiga Inc. because of an alleged breach of contract. Says Genesi:
"MorphOS IP is 100% legal. Any concerns or questions can be e-mailed to us directly. All suggestions to the contrary are complete FUD. Neither, Amiga Inc. or any of the AmigaOS4 signatories have any legally supportable evidence to the contrary. Having said that, Genesi has taken legal action against Amiga Inc. in Federal Court (Washington State) for breach of contract (FACT). We are expecting a favorable result (OPINION)."
Source: http://www.morphos-news.de/ (http://www.morphos-news.de/)
Editor's note: At this point, we don't know the exact details of the lawsuit. We'll keep you posted.
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eh? wha..?
I didn't know that they had a contract between them to breach? :-?
we'll keep you posted.
Please do!! :-)
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This small, tiny and extreme little computer community does NOT need things like this.
Its almost funny ... (note: almost) :-(
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Breech of contract is new to me, but Gensi said they filed a lawsuit a long time ago. Too bad this won't be on CourtTV :-o
Midgets go to War
:roflmao:
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@nOMAAN
I agree, this is likley to split the communnity even further, maybe push people out of the scene completley.
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Yeah ... its seriously a sad thing ...
I really wonder what Bill $ wants to achieve with this (IMO) lame action.
And i still have to see if its really true ...
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Its almost funny ... (note: almost)
(note personal opinion that means nothing except my personal opinion)
It is funny IMO, Amiga Inc asked for it. They threatened and threatened and threatened. They also accused their competetion of all kinds of things, but then either didn't have the balls or the money to put up, so they just shut up.
Now breach of contract issue is new to me. Amiga Inc refusing DE to Gensi?
(/personal opinion off)
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@jumpship
I DISAGREE, this type of activity is entertainment, and exactly why most of us are still here. Perhaps it will increase the community's size. As for being fractured, well...every community is fractured, its kind of akin to hearding chickens.
I just wish it had been a class action lawsuit by the club members who had their money stolen from them, and not Genesi SARL for some ancient contract.
This is very good news for Amiga, Inc...now they have upgraded their excuse for failure a bit, and it sounds more reasonable.
"we would have delivered t-shirts, but genesi handed us our !@#$@ on a stick"
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@ red
That are lame actions too ... but Bill Buck could be the better man by not playing the same game ... i think that would give him and his company more credit
Sueing AI won'thelp him in any way ... it'll prolly make things even worse.
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Well, depends on the result.
I remember sometime ago, someone said they had evidence that MOS illegaly used the sources or something. But now it's seems that was not a valitd prove. That or this is just more FUD...
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I remember sometime ago, someone said they had evidence that MOS illegaly used the sources or something. But now it's seems that was not a valitd prove. That or this is just more FUD...
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the illegal code was deleted and rewritten by the MOS team.
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@MarkTime
I am not saying that Ainc don't have thier faults, they have made thier share of mistakes, have put thier feet in some very deep doggie do-do and have caused rifts in the comunity, but IMHO this is a case of looking for trouble, rather then just tripping over it.
Still, I have made some very bad errors in jugment in the past, so I can't critasise either AmigaINC or Genesi!
I will just wait and see how this plays out now...
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>I really wonder what Bill $ wants to achieve with
>this (IMO) lame action.
bbrv announced that they will post more details on
morphos-news.de when the judgment is reached
this week.
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Its not about winning or loosing.
This has been going on for months.
Its about Amiga's assits being frozen while they are sued, and financially killing them.
(No T-shirts / Rebates issued etc)
He cant have Amiga so he doesnt want anyone else to have it either.
...my 2p worth of speculation (cover my back so he doesnt sue me)
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Guys,
Keep in mind here that we have absolutely no details other than the fact that it's happening. As such -- despite your intuition as the Amiga community -- you cannot make any real judgements based on facts. We do not know why Genesi did it. We don't know that it's a bad thing.
In short, before you all go bonkers as usual, take a minute to think about the fact that you're acting on heresay and emotion (and in some cases religious fervor) at this point, not facts.
Let the companies play their cards. We aren't being invited to watch, nor should we be.
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>Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the illegal code
>was deleted and rewritten by the MOS team.
Why do you think that it ever included illegal code?
Because Amiga Inc. and Hyperion told so in public
forums?
These are things for a court and nothing for public.
If you think something violates your IP or whatever
then you have to go to court and not to
amiga.org/ann.lu/... That's how it works. Nothing else
Genesi has done.
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Hello,
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the illegal code was deleted and rewritten by the MOS team.
Indeed you are wrong. There was never any illegal code. Anyone stating the contrary is spreading FUD (until he provide valid evidences).
The only real problem was just that in the early version of MorphOS, AmigaOS was needed because there were no replacements of all the AmigaOS components necessary to run the AmigaOS softwares at this time.
And the AmigaOS 3.5+ End User Licence Agreement have something stipulating that it's not allowed to run AmigaOS on a non "Amiga certified" hardware (so like the Pegasos).
So it'd have been a problem if MOS where sold and still need AmigaOS as legally speaking it'd have needed for the user to "illegally" use AmigaOS as it'd have breach the End User License Agreement (because the Pegasos is not an Amiga certified hardware).
That's why the MorphOS Team have written replacements of every necessary components (with the graceful help of the AROS Team which let the MOS Team use the AROS elements). And so that's why MorphOS is perfectly legal even on the Pegasos now ;)
Regards
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I think its funny as hell... A.inc bieng taken to court... I wonder if they will show up in a wonderbread truck...hahahaha
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This is really great news.
We haven't heard anything from Amiga Inc. in over a year now.
So the truth is about to be revealed, and no matter which way it goes, we will finally know something.
Bill Buck knew that he needed OS4 in order to survive.
He knew that MorphOS was doomed if it were to compete against OS4.
So now, he's trying to get OS4 to run on Pegasos.
Smart move, but we'll have to see which way it goes.
I really don't know which way I would like this to turn out. :-?
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This must be one of the most baseless lawsuits I have ever come across.
Thendic signed a contract with Amiga for an AmigaDE license for their WindowsCE based products.
This contract has been dormant all this time because these devices were not produced in quantity.
It now appears that mister Buck wants to get AmigaDE support for the Pegasos notwithstanding the fact that the contract clearly stipulates a closed list of devices to be supported with AmigaDE and that the Pegasos is obviously not on this list.
The list can only be extended with Amiga Inc's permission and somehow I doubt they will grant that permission.
Before you ask, yes, I read the contract.
Got my copy from mister Buck himself way back.
If you ask me, this is an attempt to be able to market the Pegasos using the Amiga trademark.
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Midgets Go to War
Genesi has been on a path of war, with various Amiga supporting companies for quite some time now. I am sure that in a couple of years, when all this has blown over, people will be amazed about how deep this rabid hole goes. Today we know most of the details and difficulties surrounding the birth of the original Amiga platform. But when the background story of the current Amiga market finally hits the public they will likely read this with complete disbelieve....
Again this lawsuit is totally unrelated to Genesi's continuous mentions of the fact that Amiga Inc regards that their MorphOS product is illegal. (Originally publicly revealed by Ralph a long time ago, then again underlined with revealing a confidential email from Fleecy and now this).
Genesi wants to have the AmigaDE on the Pegasos (I believe likely for branding purposes or just to waste some more time for their rivals) , as they had a contract (for which they paid nobody anything) for their never finished SmartBoy (WinCE) product. I believe this is truly remarkable and a complete waste of time for both parties.
Sadly this isn't the first time that these people have been wasting Amiga Inc's and related companies' valuable time and resources...
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These are things for a court and nothing for public.
If you think something violates your IP or whatever
then you have to go to court and not to
amiga.org/ann.lu/... That's how it works. Nothing else
Genesi has done.
Completely laughable. Genesi (Bill Buck particularly) is the king of stirring sh_t in pubic forums. And when there is nothing to stir, he creates stuff to cause problems.
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We will this we will that..
I think things like this should be handled
between the companies and not FUDed around
like both Amiga ANd Genesi are/has been doing.
After its done and a judge has said his piece,
lets hear it, now its just FUD.
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>Again this lawsuit is totally unrelated to Genesi's >continuous mentions of the fact that Amiga Inc >regards that MorphOS is illegal.
Nobody said it was. It's clear: "breech of contract".
> (Originally publicly revealed by Ralph in interviews
>a long time ago
Didn't you want to post a proof together with a URL?
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Poster: Frodon Date: 2003/2/4 12:07:02
Indeed you are wrong. There was never any illegal code.
If indeed this is the case, can you provide evidence as to the slander/libel suit filed against Amiga, Inc./Hyperion for having publically made false statements damaging to the reputation and business of the MorphOS team? In this case, they have not filed suit for such, but for breach of contract, which is entirely different.
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But I must say, that if Genesi winds up loosing this court battle, they are going to be another Haage and Partner to me.
If wrong is being done by Amiga Inc. then Genesi will win in court.
But if Genesi looses, then I will know that it is just another small time company trying to pull down the amiga community.
I can't wait to see how it turns out.
Hope Amiga Inc. wins though.
That's my personal opinion. ;-)
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>Can you provide evidence as to the slander/libel
>suit filed against Amiga, Inc./Hyperion for having
>publically made false statements damaging to the
>reputation and business of the MorphOS team
From ann.lu:
"[News] the next ppc amiga : Comment 216 of 359
Link
Posted by fleecy moss (195.92.198.74) on 20-
May-2002 11:14
2.Amiga compatability within MorphOS comes from
illegally obtained source tapes and we will use all
legal process to prevent it from entering the
market."
"[Unmoderated] Ralph Schmidt comments on deal
with Amiga Inc : Comment 66 of 147 Link
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion (213.224.83.38) on
04-Nov-2001 17:15
The failure of Amiga Inc and the MorphOS team to
come to terms is in part due to the fact that Amiga
wants to assert their ownership and intellectual
property rights over the Amiga OS (for which they
paid 4.5 M USD) whilst the MorphOS team happily
continues to refute those claims (whilst recompiling
OS 3.0/OS 3.1 source-code)."
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I don’t think this has anything to do with OS 4, nor do I think this has to do with anything other than hurting Amiga and increasing their chances of success. The "breach of contract" has to do with the AmigaDE; Bill Buck has been talking about this for months. They never intended to write anything for the DE, but they are going to use the contract they signed to make a few bucks off Amiga. Alos, there might be a sense that if Amiga was forced to give up the DE to them it could be a sort of public humiliation.
Now it is possible that they actually want to run Amiga DE on the Peagasos, just so, along with their classic emulator, they can claim to be the new Amiga.
Genesi is starting to impress me as a company in the sense that they are ruthless and very strategic in their moves. Whether this actually endears them to me is another story.
For the person who claimed that MorphOs never contained Amiga IP; MorphOs "claims" that they had a right to such code, and that they used it "legally" in a beta. But this particular dialogic has no end.
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Genesi is starting to impress me as a company in the sense that they are ruthless and very strategic in their moves
Hitler impressed a lot of people too.
I'm not comparing Genesi to Hitler, but I'm just bringing out a valid point.
My interpretation of the situation is that Bill Buck is sweating hard.
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>>Again this lawsuit is totally unrelated to Genesi's >continuous mentions of the fact that Amiga Inc >regards that MorphOS is illegal.
Nobody said it was. It's clear: "breech of contract".
Ahh my above comments were completely out of place then. I must have missed most of this new revelation.
Whatever, let them sling it out in the courts. If it was a pay-per-view event I'd watch it. But it is not so I won't sit here and speculate 'till the cows come home. I'd recomend others do the same. No sense in starting a flame war over something we have no inside knowlege about :-o
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I'm not comparing Genesi to Hitler, but I'm just bringing out a valid point.
Im sorry, I didnt get that point.
What was it ?
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It was simple really.
Genesi looks good to some people, but looks bad to others.
While one side might think that God is good, the other side might think that Lucifer is good.
It's all in the way you look at things.
In my eyes....
Well, we'll wait and see the outcome.
Then I'll tell you my view.
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wake me up when there is news of products...you know...stuff that you can buy in a shop...
As for Genesi ... they are rapidly going to the top in the "we have no product that works so we have to find something else to make the news" charts. If you continue like that, you will even top Amiga Inc themselves (and that is a big compliment as they are extremly good in announcing anything but real products).
What i find extremely sad about this whole rather pathetic situation, is that two companies go to court before releasing anything at all. I mean, i thought Gateway, Escom, Viscorp and all sucked, but this is even far worse
:-(
What a pathetic bunch ... how sad
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Hello,
that two companies go to court before releasing anything at all.
Well so why I have friends who bought a Pegasos at a reseller recently? I don't call that anything at all.
Regards
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@ Zacman
Nobody said it was. It's clear: "breech of contract".
Come on now, this was presented in the same misleading way as people are starting to get used to. By emphasizing something totally unrelated and then spreading FUD without mentioning any details on the true substance of this issue. (IMO = spreading misinformation and confusion)
Didn't you want to post a proof together with a URL?
No, it was you who demanded this. The first time I publicly read about any legal issues surrounding MorphOS (the ABOX), this was written by Ralph Schmidt in German quite some time ago. Long before any mention of this at ANN.
I believe with all the fuss they are creating, they are essentially shooting themselves in the foot and are degrading the entire Amiga community along the process.
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In short, before you all go bonkers as usual, take a minute to think about the fact that you're acting on heresay and emotion
WHOLLY COW, its obvious Wayne's IN ON IT TOO!
GET HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-D :-D :-D :-D
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Just move on and do the job, THAT would be impressive. But no.. they have to kill ecahother with papercuts.
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This is madness.
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This is madness.
No... THIS is the Amiga community of 2003 -- Welcome... Enter of your own free will (and get immediately polarized to one stupid side or the other).
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Bill Buck knew that he needed OS4 in order to survive.
It's only rare that we agree, for some reason...and while I don't think BB needs 'hyperion os4', per se...I do agree with your post over all...OS 4 is a big threat to Genesi....
And this is a very shrewd move, but only if he wins, and if its a big win.
anything can happen, it could even happen that Amiga offers no resistance to the lawsuit and just gives over AmigaDE...I doubt it, but until we know more, we don't know that a lawsuit automatically ends Amiga, Inc, even if they lose.
I hope whatever happens, that not just that someone wins...well I will make a prediction that someone will win.....but that it is very decisive.
don't get me wrong, I think competition is great, but I'd like one of these two companies to move on to the next level of competition.
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I'm sure it will be on CNN:
"Clash of the titans. Two of the biggest companies in computers, Amiga Inc and Genesi, fight it out in court over an extremely important matter."
Oh boy, this is too pathetic for words.
Amiga is dead.
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'No... THIS is the Amiga community of 2003 -- Welcome... Enter of your own free will (and get immediately polarized to one stupid side or the other).'
Wayne, I prefer to sit on the sidelines. I'd rather not have to, but I don't really feel like being a vulture and pick at the bones of my beloved platform.
4 more weeks and then we'll see a bit more....
Never though *AMIGA* could have so much DRAMA!
:-?
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@NihilVor
Beeep wrong !!
MOS-0.1-0.4 did not use any AmigaIP on the source level, it
just needed to (binary) AOS that was linceced rto the machine
it ran on. Nothing wrong with that.
Does Genesi need OS4 ? I don't see for what as they have a OS
of their own, and simply don't target the die-hard "must
have the name" group as there primary customer.
What is a problem for Genesi is that the companies behind
OS4 are doing all they can to damage them, and that there aren't
getting 100% of the developers as long as OS4 still looks like
an option.
What do I think of this ?
Well 2 years ago some people decided that instead of putting
there "proof" in front of a judge it would be better to use it
in a dirt-campaign. Now they are getting back some of their
own medicine. Not nice but understandable, maybe even the only way
to put an final end to this whole disgrace.
I'm not even sure if Genesi are fighting for a win, or if they
just want to add further proov to whats been shown by the
death of Amithlon/Umilator:
AInc just can't even do simple buissnes without falling on their
nose and they couldn't even protect a bottle of water, let alone
their interests.
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No... THIS is the Amiga community of 2003 -- Welcome... Enter of your own free will (and get immediately polarized to one stupid side or the other).
I don't think that I am taking sides, both are as bad as each other. Something my mother also used to say when me and my sister argued trying to blame it on each other.
Lot of wisdom my mum :-D
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@jumpship
Well IMO it would be fine if everyone would be light hearted about it. Unfortunately it always degrades into name calling and accusations. I'm talking about end users!! That's sad.
@Kronos
You like the new avatar? I was thinking of you when I made it :-D
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@Frodon (1st comment)
OK, tell me why did they go back and rewrite all their code to be all AmigaOS-free?
@all
What breach of contract? Does anyone have a URL of this contract, please?
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OS 4 is a big threat to Genesi....
Certainly not, since it's not here yet - and won't still for some time...
But what of course is a bit annoying is the already mentioned repeated FUD by AI & partners about the legality of MorphOS. Since there are several potential customers and especially developers who just hesitate to commit themselves to Genesi's products because they're afraid of possible later law-suits by AI once they'd have invested money, time or IP into such products.
Anyway, all I want to say is that there's no reason for any moralizing howl about the "bad, bad Genesi" taking the "poor, little AI" to court. As someone else already said: they asked for it themselves already by their repeated FUD...
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OK, tell me why did they go back and rewrite all their code to be all AmigaOS-free?
Try: Why did they write the parts missing to be able
to function without any *binary* AmigaOS code ?
Hmm.. how could it be put simpler..
There was no AmigaOS code in their code, but
the AmigaOS binaries where used (like on Amithlon
or UAE). To not be dependant on theese binaries
they wrote them from scratch (like AROS).
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@Kronos
(edited cause I didn't read the first post correctly! duh)
I posted in another thread, the 800mhz G4 TeronPX motherboard is now being list at terrasoft for$499 with bulk discounts available and a mid feb. release date.
Whereas the pre-order for the exact same configuration in an AmigaOne is $879 at softhut, and the pegasos, is $499 at pegasos-usa.com but that is for the G3 model not the G4!
BBRV was hugely worried about Terrasoft a few months ago....and rightly so.
Without OS 4 or some big win for MorphOS as the clear nextgen OS...then I think genesi is in for some tough times...
They lost the linux market, if they lose the amiga market, they don't have a market.
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I invite you to check the Commdore patent portfolio now held by Gateway.
I subsequently invite you to examine any AmigaOS derivative.
Without these patents which cover extremely basic functionality which everybody takes for granted in AmigaOS, there can be nothing ressembling AmigaOS.
You'll find that there are countless infringements of these patents to which Amiga hold an exclusive license from Gateway.
I'm just using this as an example because this information is available to everybody through the US Patent Office.
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I have to edit this one too, today is just not my day.
Anyway, its up to Gateway to enforce their own patents...I doubt its up to Amiga, Inc.
And the usual arguments (which are often quite valid) will be made, which is the patents are no longer valid, they were issued in error, they are unenforcable...
with no one around trying to test these issues in court, who knows....its all academic...morphOS is perfectly legal, de facto, if not de jure
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@red
Well IMO it would be fine if everyone would be light hearted about it.
I have to agree, when I came back into the "communtity" about 2 years or so ago (before I found A.org too) I used to get caught up in the wars (OS4 was the only way). But now I just think "hay life is too short to be throwing my dummy out over some bit of vaporware" (sorry HyperionMP but it is until I can buy it for my A1200+BPPC (hint hint nudge nudge ;-) :-D) ). So now I just sit back, ignore most of these sorts of threads, and you know what? I actually began to enjoy my Amiga again. ;-)
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Enter of your own free will (and get immediately polarized to one stupid side or the other
and wayne's right in the middle....
hehehe :-D
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and that there aren't
getting 100% of the developers as long as OS4 still looks like
an option.
So if you don't get it all your way, sue the heck out of everyone.
HHHaaaa....
That's lame.
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So if you don't get it all your way, sue the heck out of everyone.
Same thing (minus the actual law-suit) has been done by AInc
and Hyperion for the last 2 years or so...
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Man, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Amiga Inc. hasn't said anything about anything for over a year now.
They've been working on thier projects the way they should be worked on.
Private.
I guess the silence was just eating Bill Buck to pieces.
Yesterday was yesterday.
Amiga seems to be a lot different than what they used to be.
Just my opinion though.
Amiga Inc. hasn't wanted anything from Genesi.
It's the other way around.
You're confused.
Furthermore...
Hyperion has never got involved with any of this.
What are you talking about?
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I think some people have missed a major point here: Genesi has simply made the community (such as it exists) aware that an action in fact has been filed. This is simply an announcement in the interest of informing everyone. It is neither a move to engage community opinion or shape it (like that would have any positive bearing on such a case) - nor is it threats in the form of a series of public postings that may or may not ever have been intended to be followed up on.
As no major details have been released, I truly think that to be the simple purpose of the announcement. If given to further supposition, I would guess that all other avenues have been privately exhausted to handle matters outside of court, as per contract(s). So perhaps legal action is the only thing left to guarantee resolution one way or another.
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@greenboy,
I was aware of this for a month...I don't remember all the details, but it was a posting by bbrv that told me it was going to happen. I certainly don't have insider knowledge.
how can you say no opinion is being shaped? Heck, its well known Genesi seeks mindshare in this community...developer support, user support, etc. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, that part is endearing about them.
maybe they are a little quiet today on all the details...maybe we'll know why when we get the details....
but they haven't been quiet the past few months, even speaking out on legal matters.
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I think ill wait for the facts before commenting .
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>I invite you to check the Commdore patent portfolio
>now held by Gateway.
I invite you to check the date of these patents.
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Mountain_Myst,
You mean you don't recall Amiga Inc's "AMNESTY UNTIL SEPTEMBER ONE" posting(s)? Amiga Inc personnel have indeed said much in the past year.
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@Mountain_Myst
Ehhhhh ??
McBill had his get legal or shutdown speech and it was clear to
whom it was tageted.
Hyperion not involved ? Isn't a certain Ben Hermanns part of
that company ? And hasn't he made all those nice comments on ann.lu ?
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Is OS 4 a thread to Genesi? -Not a very big one,I think.We don´t know when it will be released or if its worth waiting for.Maybe it´s a piece of crap,who knows?
Genesi seems to have more money and they have achieved much more than Amiga Inc,who have turned mute now as it seems.
It seems to me that Genesi is rather confident to win in court.
Maybe Bill Buck is just doing this to get rid of Amiga Inc. ,so what?Amiga Inc. had threatened to do something like this all the time (I think even to the creators of Amithlon ?) and now its time for ARMAGEDDON(or AmiGeddon if you like). ;)
Maybe Amiga Inc. gets bankrupt if they lose,I wouldn´t miss them after all the BS BillMc used to tell us and now he´s saying nothing at all.What would we lose?AmigaDE and thats it.
Hyperion might publish OS 4 on their own ("HyperionOS" or something *g*) and Eyetech could sell "EyetechOne"-systems. ;))
I stick with the good,old Sega-slogan:
The better one wins.
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hey MarkTime,
I didn't say that opinion isn't being shaped {gedd oudda town if you think I would ever believe THAT! ; } ... What I said (or tried to say) is that I doubt that our trivial postings, rants, and flames here and elsewhere do much to inform any findings in court ; }
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@greenboy
ok, I get it...yes certainly...I agree, the judge won't scan the message board to form an opinion!
I do find this one particularly enjoyable to discuss though.
I'm not sure why, but while both Genesi and Amiga, Inc. are small, and I have no idea how Genesi will survive future hurdles (like Terrasoft)...they are just so darn scrappy, heck I'm starting to like them.
It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.
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I stick with the good,old Sega-slogan:
The better one wins.
LOL & where is the Dreamcast now.
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Listen to user HyperionMP.
Nobody can kill amiga - NOBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Two companies fighting for what........ nothing at this rate....... Bill Gates must be laughing at our own sustained destruction! Oh well.
It would be good to have a little more detail about what is happening by some official channel. This is like a headline with no story. Whats happening... Is it about Amiga DE, OS4. Who has the real facts?
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Sorry missed HyperionMP's text.
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Nobody can kill amiga - NOBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody can kill THE Amiga... Anybody can kill Amiga
inc... He just has to choose a reason to sue...
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Well, supposedly they sue for a "breech of contract" (which is of course not a "fact" unless the a court says so).
The only known contract concerns AmigaDE (probably the only one that does exist).
So ... theyre suing because a product does not exist for a platform that does not exist payed for with nothing? I dont know what theyre up to.
ps: bb is making a fool of himself on ann (again).
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@Alkemyst
And where´s the Amiga now?Ho ho ho... :-P
BTW: Sega still is one of the most important video-game developers of the world.
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So BBRV is passionate about the subject and does not enjoy being called names or ridiculed... Maybe the level of discourse could be raised everywhere if all parties would agree not to say things like "bb is making a fool of himself on ann (again)."
I will note that BBRV sometimes seems to react - but is also quite capable of apologizing or supporting someone who earlier could have been considered in the enemy camp. In my book, he understands a concept of honor. Unfortunately that sometimes means those who seem to be acting without honor set him off.
Hate to sound like a "supporter", but I know that while none of us are perfect, some people are TRYING to get things done, and I can forgive them what I consider human errors ; }
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Threatening to post someones private phone number is ... laughable and lower than low.
And what did catohagen write in that thread that could be viewn as offending???
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@MisterBrisby
Dont try & turn what you said around.
I was pointing out that its silly to use a term of a failed platform to premote another.
You said it i did not.
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You mean you don't recall Amiga Inc's "AMNESTY UNTIL SEPTEMBER ONE" posting(s)?
Well, that's not quite slander now is it.
Someone stole Amiga's property, and they want it back.
That's not mud slinging.
I liked the speech, and I'm only sorry that Amiga Inc. didn't go though with it.
As far as MorphOS not using Amiga Code, well, that's kinda rediculous.
It's plain to see that Amiga code was used.
They can say that they didn't use it if they wish, but I know better than that.
Genesi, or whomever, might have written a lot of things, but I can tell you now that Amiga OS code is in there.
I'm actually hoping for a countersuit, since ole' Mr. Buck has pushed it all this far.
-
So BBRV is passionate about the subject and does not enjoy being called names
:lol: :lol:
Then maybe he should stop calling other people names. ;-)
-
Hello,
It's plain to see that Amiga code was used.
They can say that they didn't use it if they wish, but I know better than that.
Well, let's check that. Have you ever developped APIs compatible with other OS APIs using just public documentation? Considering what you said, I doubt a lot you've ever tried.
To give a concrete example which is outside our Amiga world, that's what the OpenBeOS Team is actually doing to be compatible with BeOS, and guess what, it looks exactly like BeOS! In fact when it'll be finish it'll be very hard to see the difference between OpenBeOS and BeOS. But they just used the public developper documentations (this include the OS public includes, the BeOS Bible...etc) and don't use at all any part of the BeOS code.
If you had just searched a bit over the net OSes API compatible with others you'd see it's totally possible to make an OS that just work like another one without using any original code and just the documentation (OpenBeOS, BlueEyed OS, others BeOS compatible projects, AROS and of course MorphOS).
For me it's obvious that by saying that "It's plain to see that Amiga code was used." show clearly that you have no clue the technical aspect.
You know that's not because MorphOS or AROS looks like AmigaOS that they have used AmigaOS code. Just like OpenBeOS elements which just looks like the real BeOS but have been rewritten without any part of the BeOS code.
In a nutshell, it's not possible to say just by looking at an OS if it has used code of another one. What I know personnaly is that OpenBeOS didn't use any original BeOS code and AFAIK this is also the case of AROS and MorphOS. At least I know it's perfectly possible to make an OS compatible with another without using any part of the original OS code. And I don't see why it'd not be the case for MorphOS and AROS (particularly considering that AmigaOS is extremely well documented and the time of development (AROS has started years ago and MorphOS has been faster because the MOS Team can use the work already done by the AROS Team).
Regards
-
As far as MorphOS not using Amiga Code, well, that's kinda rediculous.
It's plain to see that Amiga code was used.
--
How exactly is it plain to see? Do you have proof?
You know very well that the AmigaOS API is
EXTREMELY well documented. Documented enough
to be replicated. Furthermore AROS code was used
as well. Even OS 3.9 used some AROS code.
They can say that they didn't use it if they wish, but I know better than that.
--
Then proove it. You can be sued for spreading such
stuff and not prooving it. Genesi is innocent until the
court decides the opposite.
Genesi, or whomever, might have written a lot of things, but I can tell you now that Amiga OS code is in there.
--
Go on. Proove it.
I'm actually hoping for a countersuit, since ole' Mr. Buck has pushed it all this far.
--
There won't be one if Genesi wins... There won't be
one even if they lose.... Amiga Inc has no money for
any such stuff... *I* can proove that but won't do it
here, I can't say most stuff I know.
-
Mountain_Myst,
What slander? do you understand what the definition of slander is? If Amiga Inc genuinely believed what they said, and threatened what they threatened, then it behooves them to follow through with legal action. "Liking the speech" does not help anything be legally resolved.
Heck, I've liked speeches before, too. Later on I found they were no basis for anything other than good speechwriters' paychecks. And those particular words actually interested me a good deal because I really wanted to see some resolution to base future plans on.
But you seem to speak a lot from hearsay - and vacillate as well on which hearsay is currently affecting you. Like it's more about your emotional state of security than what has been actually presented. If it is indeed "plain to see that Amiga code was used ... They can say that they didn't use it if they wish, but I know better than that," why would such a simple open-and-shut case then not be pursued by Amiga Inc, and won?
A sidenote: perhaps you do not understand what the implications of a compatible API are either...
Genesi, or whomever, might have written a lot of things, but I can tell you now that Amiga OS code is in there.
Then Amiga Inc should call you in as an expert witness. Perhaps your intimate knowledge of the development issues can turn the tide in their favor.
-
For me it's obvious that by saying that "It's plain to see that Amiga code was used." show clearly that you have no clue the technical aspect.
I might be able to mention a more obvious API clone out there:
And...
Give me an L!
*L*
Give me an I!
*I*
Give me an N!
*N*
Give me a U!
*U*
Give me an X!
*X*
What's that spell!
Yes, you read it here folk, Linux copies an API or 3.
Their POSIX complience is entirely based on documented API for POSIX.
Same with their Sys V support, entirely based on the UNIX System V documentation. At the time, using the actual source code was out of the question, due to AT&T's lawsuits against BSD at the time that Linux was being created.
Yes, they could *look* at the source code, to determine the API, but that was actually harder to do than to read the actual API manuals. (As anybody worth their weight in source code can tell you)
-
Side1) Post reply...
Side2) "Ohmygod THEY posted a reply that means if we don't post we'll lose the argument cuz everyone knows that hoever post the last reply is allways right!"
( post utterly moronic repetative comment, somhow beleving that this will increase the popularety of his system of choise. "Cause everyone knows that hoever posts the last reply...")
Side1) "Ohmygod..."
-
You know, this actually shows something interesting about Genesi. It's showing a Genesi that isn't all talk, they're actually doing something. Have not seen this kind of chutzpah since Jack Tramiel. Under Jack, Commodore was in litigation for or against a few dozen companies at any one time. Suing against stupid patents, suing to gain a position on another chip maker's fab process. Jack understood that litigation was an important levereging tool for any business. This is a lesson most businesses since have failed to learned. Business tactics can range from bullying to lawsuits, but they're all tactics to gain an end-result. By Genesi taking this tactic you can rest assured that the days of himming and hawing, toothless dogs barking, are gone from the Amiga community. The coming times might be bloody, might even loose some previously hard core members....
But we will be re-forged again.
-
FFS, just as I get back into the Amiga this ####e comes up again........
I'm flippin p' off :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :madashell: :madashell: :madashell: :madashell: :madashell: :destroy: :flame:
-
Bring back Donald Pleasance :-P .
-
Makes me wonder.. The MOS camp spares no effort in asserting that they're a part of the Amiga community yet they're doing a much better job of splitting it than anything else.
It's hard to sit on the fence when someone's trying to push you off.
-
It's hard to sit on the fence when someone's trying to push you off.
How true.
-
Where is Iving Gould and Medi Ali when you need them? :-P
-
@Frodon, AmiGR
Look, it's already been posted---and acknowledged---that MorphOS required AmigaOS binaries to run. That means that they used Amiga source code. They might not have compiled it, but because they used the compiled product of that source code, they used the source code. Everytime someone purchases a computer software product, they do so according to a particular license. If their use of that product violates the license held, they are using that product illegally. Whether source or compiled product is really immaterial. The use is still illegal.
The MorphOS team has been openly accused of illegal use of an Amiga product. So far as we know there has been no slander or libel suit forthcoming, but there has been an admission that the need for such product has been removed.
-
the bad news never seems to stop? , oh well as many of us allready knows
if someone sue anyone then we sue back, righT?
i have enough here (inlcuding threats) to sue someone who write like 4-5 mails to me, and i know of more who got simmilar emails + even more (filthy stuff).
in general what is happening here is something i dont like, but now this is getting pretty annoying.
last of all i have no idea on what this is all about as we dont know all for 100% yet.
a good tip before starting a thing like this is TO CLEAN OUT THE OLD TRAsh! , and that has been forgotten and such is NOT tolerated (and for many of the victims IMPOSSIBLE)
anyway i am still waiting for my A1 Xe800 , and i am still waiting to see pegasos in the shops (with a final MOS) , until then...ITS VAPOR.
-
Argo said
Where is Iving Gould and Medi Ali when you need them?
:lol: :lol:
-
Well, the fact of the matter is this.
If Amiga Inc and Hyperion go...
I go.
Frodo, bbrv, and the clown have infiltrated the community.
Preachers of MorphOS and Pegasos, with Bill Buck in the background silently minipulating all the forums.
To them it seems to be working.
To me it also seems to be working.
But you know what?
Amiga Inc and Hyperion have the only solution that I personally would consider valid for Amiga.
That Solution is AmigaOne, OS4, and the dongle.
Under the supervision of Genesi, it will continue to go like it has for about 10 years now.
To hell in a handbasket.
Amiga Inc wanted to secure the Amiga OS and make sure that developers recieved payment for thier work.
Amiga Inc wanted to put a virtual end to Amiga piracy.
Amiga Inc wants the Amiga name to grow into something that it hasn't been in many years.
Genesi wants to keep everything the same.
Open to pirates.
No specifications to meet for programmers who build for amiga.
On and On and On....
Same old crap!
If this community lets Bill Buck have his way, then this community is commiting suicide.
Amiga will be dead within 5 years.
Haage and Partner will return in full strength.
People like Mr. Myers will get off the wagon and go on to better things.
Germany will once again be building patched up hardware as expensive add ons.
And Amiga will die.
As much as a lot of people here hate Bill McEwen for whatever reason, he is the only hope along with Hyperion for hope in the future.
Agree...
Disagree...
It really doesn't matter.
If Bill Buck takes control, America, along with many other countries will never see a true amiga again.
-
Hello,
Frodo, bbrv, and the clown have infiltrated the community.
Well don't judge people when you don't know them! I've never "infiltrated" this community.
I'm an Amiga user since 1988. So I'm in this community for a long time now.
I just don't have the same opinion than you. If you want us (people who don't have the same opinion than you) to respect your opinion, please respect us too.
As far as I can remember, I've always respected your opinion for now, so please respect that some Amiga users prefer the Pegasos/MorphOS solution for the Amiga future than the official one. That doesn't make them in any ways "infiltrators".
We've to live together, you can't change that, and for that we've to respect each others. So please do so.
Regards
-
It was not a personal attack against you Frodo.
Please don't take it as such.
That's just the way it's working out, if that makes sense.
I've always enjoyed reading your posts and statements... Kronos, and bbrv also.
But im starting to see a particular pattern in what is going on between the three of you.
Call it paranoid behavior if you wish, but I reckon that's just the way I am.
But anyway, you three are not the main issue.
The main issue is who's hands Amiga will fall into.
And I see the Genesi side as a grave danger.
Didn't mean to offend you.
Sorry.
-
Hello Mountain_Myst,
Ok no prob.
And I see the Genesi side as a grave danger.
Well depends what you mean by "danger".
Personnaly I think that if Genesi can offer us a great future, why not considering their solution?
IMHO limiting the vision of the Amiga future just to the official solution would let less chance for the "Amiga" (I mean more spiritualy speaking, this is what I've always loved in the Amiga, the spirit of the OS and also in the community) to survive.
Btw please note that I've never said that AmigaOne/AmigaOS 4 is not a good solution. I just say it's not the only one and therefore I don't just only consider it. Time will tell if this solution will be great or not also. And I'm not ignoring it at all.
But for now I can't see the quality of this solution as AmigaOS 4 is not available yet. That's all.
And when me or some others defend MorphOS it's just, at least for me, to avoid misinformation, FUD or other stuffs like this to be spread. When I say that MorphOS doesn't use any part of the AmigaOS code, I say it because I know that they've used the AROS work to make compatible APIs + their own work to enhance them and I know that AROS have been developped just using the documentations available publicly.
I also know that AmigaOS is very well documented and so that what the AROS Team and then the MOS Team have done is perfectly possible without breaking any laws or IP.
To conclude, I am open to every solution and when me or someone else defend MorphOS, it is nothing against anyone or anything, it's just to prevent misinformation about MorphOS. And that does not at all (at least for me) imply that we are against AmigaOS 4. Personnally I want to see it working before making my opinion on it. So for now I've an opinion on MorphOS because I can use it and so I know it. On the contrary I don't know AmigaOS 4 very much as I can't use it for now so I can't make my opinion about it.
Regards
-
Honestly, this is a wait and see situation. Even if both parties are told to go to their corners, it will be in the court's hands. Which, maybe, isn't that bad. Look at what happened to Amithlon when no party took their complaints to court....
-
This community aint big enough
for the both of them the young
gun is trying to shoot down the
old hand
-
Yeah, that's how we should settle disputes. Time to get rid of the courts...
Dueling pistols at high noon
or
sabres at dawn.
-
As far as I can remember, I've always respected your opinion for now, so please respect that some Amiga users prefer the Pegasos/MorphOS solution for the Amiga future than the official one. That doesn't make them in any ways "infiltrators".
BUT THAT IS NOT THE AMIGA WAY.... IT IS THE MORPHOS WAY...
I've said it before and will again.... If you want pegasos and morphos, go to it... have it... leave Amiga the f_ck alone and make morphos grow on it's own merits... But aparently it doesn't have anything of its own to make it suceed without ripping the official AmigaOS completely apart.
And yes, it does make them infiltrators when they come into every last Amiga forum trying to become the dominant OS of the forum and push the others out! And don't say you people are not trying to push the official AmigaOS out, because you are.
-
Why dont the people claiming "MorphOS is illegal" PROVE IT,
If Amiga inc wants to call it illegal then so be it, they deserve all they get.
-
Poster: Mountain_Myst Date: 2003/2/4 21:11:40
The main issue is who's hands Amiga will fall into.
And I see the Genesi side as a grave danger.
Great danger of what? Having owners who actually know how to get a product out to market AND know how to market it? Owners who would rather tell you go get F'd instead of blowing sunshine up your ass? Oh yeah, great danger there, knowning exactly where you stand with them for which they are not going to sugar coat it for you.
If getting the straight answer without the fluff and lipservice is a great danger, put me on the highway to the danger zone.
Dammy
-
Hello,
I've said it before and will again.... If you want pegasos and morphos, go to it... have it... leave Amiga the f_ck alone and make morphos grow on it's own merits... But aparently it doesn't have anything of its own to make it suceed without ripping the official AmigaOS completely apart.
And yes, it does make them infiltrators when they come into every last Amiga forum trying to become the dominant OS of the forum and push the others out! And don't say you people are not trying to push the official AmigaOS out, because you are.
Well but there is obvious reasons for that:
1) MorphOS users / actors are from the Amiga community
2) News website are speaking about Pegasos / MorphOS in their news
3) Even non MorphOS users are speaking about it on the news / forum website
So at least Amiga.org or ANN are not anymore "Amiga(R) only" website, they are Amiga community websites. And today the community is composed by Amiga(R)/AmigaOS users, Amithlon/AmigaOS users, UAE/AmigaOS users, AROS users and Pegasos or Amiga(R) with MorphOS users.
Again you can't change that, even if you want it. And as soon as there'll be people speaking about MorphOS and people that may spread misinformation about it, I and some others will answer to avoid the misinformations.
I don't see any problems with that. You may not like the today diversity of the community, but that's the today situation. But sadly or not, you've to live with it.
Just like in the world you've to live with lot of different people with lot of different origins.
You may don't like that, but you can't change the situation.
Regards
-
1) So what if MOS users come from Win32 land? So Win32 is MOS because of that? Nonsense.
2) And again - how is that making it Amiga material?
3) ROFL - these are even valid reasons.
There is no argument that makes MOS more special to amigaland than any other OS.
-
Well, since the complete exec-sources was leaked and widely spread a couple of years ago, chances are that the MorphOS guys have access to it. If they used it, no one but themselves will ever know.
I'm not pro/con MorphOS, to me it's just another OS, nothing more, nothing less.
The only thing I know for sure is that it's not AmigaOS but it still can run AmigaOS software much like ShapeShifter can run MacOS software. That doesn't make Pegasos any more an Amiga than ShapeShifter makes an Amiga a Mac.
The same applies for Linux with WINE and Win32. It would (IMHO) be a lot better if the MOS people left the AOS people alone and vice versa. This constant arguing wont do anyone any good.
-
Hello,
1) So what if MOS users come from Win32 land? So Win32 is MOS because of that? Nonsense.
??? Did I ever or someone else said that AmigaOS is MorphOS?
I agree it is not. MorphOS is just Amiga related and AmigaOS related because it is compatible with the AmigaOS 3.x (source and binary) but of course it is not the AmigaOS.
2) And again - how is that making it Amiga material?
3) ROFL - these are even valid reasons.
There is no argument that makes MOS more special to amigaland than any other OS.
MOS is an product made my Amiga developers (so members of the Amiga community) and is compatible with AmigaOS 3.x.
AROS is Amiga related, it's "an attempt to build from scratch an AmigaOS 3.1 clone" (quote from: http://www.ahsodit.com/aros/index.html). Then why MorphOS would not be Amiga related? MorphOS has also compatible APIs just like AROS and it is even binary compatible with AmigaOS 3.x software. That's why it's an Amiga related solution (not the trademark but the community, the spirit).
That make it more special to "amigaland". And as Amiga.org (and ANN) is a website about any Amiga related things, MorphOS has its place just like AROS or Amithlon have their place too. The webmaster of this site have already stated on that.
Regards
-
Hello,
"The only thing I know for sure is that it's not AmigaOS but it still can run AmigaOS software much like ShapeShifter can run MacOS software. That doesn't make Pegasos any more an Amiga than ShapeShifter makes an Amiga a Mac."
No, ShapeShifter emulate in some way how works a real Macintosh and don't use its own compatible APIs to run MacOS software.
MorphOS use its own APIs that are compatible with the AmigaOS 3.x APIs. You see it's not working the same way. It's more like AROS.
So yes MorphOS is not more Amiga related than AROS, but not less. As its AmigaOS 3.x compatibility work similarly to AROS. It use compatible APIs just like AROS (+ a 68k emulator for the 68k binary compatibility). So MorphOS is not more not less Amiga related than AROS.
After it depends on how Amiga related you find AROS to be...
But respect people that think that MorphOS is a valid solution for the future of the Amiga as they know it and like it. You can't think for the others, they have their opinion, you should respect it.
Regards
-
MorphOS required AmigaOS binaries to run. That means that they used Amiga source code
I think there is a difference between using a binary code and using a source code.
Anyway the only thing I know is that the future of the Amiga platform is uncertain and that puts me in great disconfort. (I wish I had a new Amiga that`s the only thing I know)
-
@billsey
I have rarely heard such claptrap in all my
life. Do you think I am illegally using IP by writing an application
to run on AmigaOS?
That is effectively what MorphOS people
did. Whether they used AOS3.1 source code or not is something
that for a long time put up or shut up has been asked and
I guess Amiga Inc took the shut up option.
This lawsuit apparently has nothing to do with that but
in the best traditions of marketing it was alluded to.
@everyone
Every dog has his day.
-
But aparently it doesn't have anything of its own to make it suceed without ripping the official AmigaOS completely apart.
this legal action has nothing to do with the AOS.... Hyperion has the rights to make OS4 irreguardless of what happend to A.inc....why do people care so much for A.inc? what did they do for you?
Hyperion makes an OS I respect them... Eyetech makes? I aknowledge them.... but A.inc?
-
@mips_proc
How dare you!
AInc made a search and replace for Intent or Elate keywords
to change it to AmigaDE and AmigaOS.
AInc added a NIC MAC copyright protection based installer
to the Intent installer from TAO.
AInc created a packaging system and called it AmigaAnywhere
AInc deigned to allow Hyperion to sort out AOS4 for PPC.
AInc undermined AOS4 by talking about AOS5 "within a year"
AInc threatened legal action at a few people but never followed through.
AInc closed their offices ( still no new details ), let their websites
get out of date etc..
AInc told lots of silly overoptimistic game plans to certain Amiga magazines
who reprinted them almost verbatim without questioning it.
AInc got a loan off the gullible, the fanatical and the religious
in the userbase.
AInc hired a few people, let a few people go, published a single
magazine that talked about "sheep" and then went quiet.
AInc are doing lots of mega secret ( like Merlancia I guess ) stuff
that you have to be under several NDAs and "trusted" to find out.
Oh and they made a contract with Thendic for the FatBoy
which looks like has just got them in trouble.
So thats what... a weeks work .... spread over two years? And they
say that US productivity rates are low... ;-)
-
Poster: Alkemyst Date: 2003/2/4 23:11:33
@MisterBrisby
Dont try & turn what you said around.
I was pointing out that its silly to use a term of a failed platform to premote another.
You said it i did not.
That slogan is from Mega Drive (aka Genesis) times and the Mega Drive was quite a success.
Can´t remember about the Dreamcast-slogans but anyhow... :-D
-
Targhan wrote:
Even if both parties are told to go to their corners, it will be in the court's hands. Which, maybe, isn't that bad.
Don't forget that in the US everyone has to pay their own court costs, even if the suit brought against them was patently frivolous and gets laughed out of court.
I'd rather wait to see what further details transpire before cheering or booing, and be sure that it's not just an attempt to intimidate (or even drive out of business- this has happened before) before deciding.
But in any case, I rather suspect that any rights or wrongs are totally irrelevant and the whole thing's totally pointless in the current climate.
-
This is really quite sad. Why does Genesi feel that they have sue AInc or anyone else. Can't they let their products talk volumes rather than this bickering?
The Amiga community is turning into a school playground. What with all this bitching and in fighting.
Oh well... While the real world moves on...
-
Tell those former folks from phase 5 to just og and p..s off.
We'd probably buy stuff and go and liquidate. No thank you, I have more faith in Bill.
-
So at least Amiga.org or ANN are not anymore "Amiga(R) only" website, they are Amiga community websites. And today the community is composed by Amiga(R)/AmigaOS users, Amithlon/AmigaOS users, UAE/AmigaOS users, AROS users and Pegasos or Amiga(R) with MorphOS users.
But the one thing that "Amiga(R)/AmigaOS users, Amithlon/AmigaOS users, UAE/AmigaOS users" all have in common is that they are running AmigaOS.... The real OS not a ripoff.
But go ahead little mice.... follow Bill "the pied piper" Buck down the road. He is so predictable (as I guess we all are, because I shouldn't even waste my breath on this crap) Before this is all over he will post a message something like : "This is great stuff. It is working".
Say what you want about Amiga Inc., but I've never seen Bill Mcewen come into a forum and create problems like BB does. That speaks volumes for the (non)"professionalism" of Genesi, and just how small time they really are.
When a cat is backed into a corner and scared, they will hiss and scratch. I think this is where Genesi are at now. It's apparent they are fearing the pending competition by their actions.
-
Hi Rose
Year(s?) ago you loudly warned all us about poor economical status of Thendic... I know you like digging all that data, so please could you make short summary of status of AmigaInc and Hyperion as they are now?
-
@downix
Commodore was in litigation for or against a few dozen companies at any one time. Suing against stupid patents, suing to gain a position on another chip maker's fab process. Jack understood that litigation was an important levereging tool for any business.
Whilst I also welcome actions not words litigation over
technical items ( patents etc ) is usual in the real world and
has nothing to do with chutzpah. Companies only build up
patents to say to each other "I have more on you than you
do on me". Look at IBM for example, it has been stockpiling
patents of mass destruction as a litigation deterrant since the
year dot(com?) and realises value and encourages inventors.
Where this differs is litigation over a /contract/ unless you
know more than you are revealing here.
@notAtDownixSpecifically
I don't see this as a
david and goliath issue given the size of the Amiga Inc staff
seems to be less than the Genesi conglomerate.
Interestingly Alkis said on ANN that there was another
court case that AInc lost - I want to find out more ( although
he could have just been bulling or mistyped ).
However, we aren't the judge and jury of the outcome
and nor should we pretend to be. If this court case
brings about an end to the sabre rattling one way or another
then it will be a good day in the annals of Amigadom.
-
>Interestingly Alkis said on ANN that there was
>another court case that AInc lost - I want to find out
>more
I found it not wise that Alkis said this as the one who
is concerned might not want to discuss this in public
forums.
-
i have read all messages here now , and to me its seems like ainc is sueing genesi, well atleast on how you guys speak.
its GENESI who is sueing AINC for godsake.
anyway i think we need to just shut up for a while until we know more as this is just BS.
conartists have always been a problem and in the end they will always get their ............
to the @mos people , as i said 2 years ago... i am not interested , my neighbour is a mos man and have access to whatever he wants and i know he will talk if its needed.
To the @aos people , all of this is sad news and good news but in the end all of this might kill evrything on mos and aos, but then again it seems that we like fights (i sticked here in thick and thin) ,anyway i belive that ainc will win this fight (as i belive its about the actual patents and the source blooper.
-
Well at least we know that a cat is there that might
eventually get out of the bag.
Im guessing that because I can't find anything
in the public domain ( court documents ) it was settled
out of court anyway.
Else i am looking in the wrong states archives ;-)
-
>Im guessing that because I can't find anything
>in the public domain ( court documents ) it was
>settled out of court anyway.
>Else i am looking in the wrong states archives
No same state. Maybe even the same lawyers ;)
-
> Maybe even the same lawyers ;)
:-D
-
why do people care so much for A.inc? what did they do for you?
They have the name "Amiga" in the name "Amiga inc" so they will get thousands of blind followers who will defend them to the death and sabotage the competition.
-
BTW, the OS3.5 registration paper mentions UAE
and they don't ban usage of the OS with any emuls
in the EULA. MOS0.4 was just quark+exec+cgx
and some other modules needed to make the OS run
on a PPC processor + a 68k emulator. The rest was
emulated and patched sometimes. The original ROM
was used for that, NO rom files. It's the same case
Apple lost with the AMax authors.
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Actually you said more about the case than I did:P
I just mentioned that they lost a case, nothing more.
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anyway i belive that ainc will win this fight (as i belive its about the actual patents and the source blooper.
Ok guys, I have information directly from Bill and Raquel (I have no idea why they didn't say this directly to begin with) that this is about their AmigaDE license, nothing else. Amiga Inc. is accused of denying them the right to use this license (hence the "breach of contract") and they expect the court's decision this week.
I have no further details but this should atleast straighten out a few misconceptions in here.
@DaveP
The court case is here:
http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/wawd/CASELIST.NSF/64816dac731e4808882564c00067c41d/3a837b98917be82088256ca30000aae9?OpenDocument (http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/wawd/CASELIST.NSF/64816dac731e4808882564c00067c41d/3a837b98917be82088256ca30000aae9?OpenDocument )
And then keep an eye on:
http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/wawd/Documents.nsf/d9832cf8ff8f7654882568cf00780e92/4789ef1a9f06dea38825695300774a61?OpenDocument (http://www.wawd.uscourts.gov/wawd/Documents.nsf/d9832cf8ff8f7654882568cf00780e92/4789ef1a9f06dea38825695300774a61?OpenDocument)
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JoannaK saith:
Year(s?) ago you loudly warned all us about poor economical status of Thendic... I know you like digging all that data, so please could you make short summary of status of AmigaInc and Hyperion as they are now?
Months, months. I don't like going on like a broken record, but don't worry: my analysis hasn't changed. If anything, I have even greater doubts about a group that spawns subsidiaries and holding companies faster than daisies on a fresh-mown lawn and whose public pronouncements are mostly full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
As for the financial situations of Hyperion and Ainc, I have no figures. It's certainly no secret that they don't have a lot of money. OTOH, they aren't trying to hide behind a smokescreen either.
Happy now?
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GreenBoy wrote:
"I think some people have missed a major point here: Genesi has simply made the community (such as it exists) aware that an action in fact has been filed. This is simply an announcement in the interest of informing everyone. It is neither a move to engage community opinion or shape it (like that would have any positive bearing on such a case) - nor is it threats in the form of a series of public postings that may or may not ever have been intended to be followed up on.
As no major details have been released, I truly think that to be the simple purpose of the announcement. If given to further supposition, I would guess that all other avenues have been privately exhausted to handle matters outside of court, as per contract(s). So perhaps legal action is the only thing left to guarantee resolution one way or another. "
If they don't provide extra information,why bring it on the first place!? :-?
(one not so inocent question...)
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Hello,
But the one thing that "Amiga(R)/AmigaOS users, Amithlon/AmigaOS users, UAE/AmigaOS users" all have in common is that they are running AmigaOS.... The real OS not a ripoff.
So according to you AROS is also not Amiga related? As it also use its own APIs to be source compatible (and binary compatible on 68k machines) with AmigaOS?
If yes, then thanks for your huge respect of the work made by the AROS Team to bring us a source compatible OS by developping compatible APIs. They've worked for years to make AROS possible. And saying that just because it's not using real AmigaOS APIs but rewritten one make it not Amiga related is a bit hard for the hard work made by the developpers.
Ok You didn't say that. But as you say it for MorphOS and as AROS has also its own APIs just like MorphOS and so don't use AmigaOS, I'd guess you'd say the same for AROS. Or you are not coherent.
Regards
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If they don't provide extra information,why bring it on the first place!?
Well, not Genesi made it "news" at several websites (now also at amiga-news.de, keeping me busy). BBRV just responded in a COMMENT in a thread at ANN (the Ibrowse one) in which someone was concerned about the "MOS is illegal"-FUD which made him afraid to support Genesi.
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pixie : If they don't provide extra information,why bring it on the first place!?
Hey pixie,
They provided the essential information: that they are following through. Thus, nobody needs wonder.
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I guess you have to ask yourself, do you think that if Genesi had made an 'Operating System' (Morph XP) that looked and worked exactly like Windows XP and ran all Windows software or an 'Operating System' (Morph Mac) that looked and worked exactly like Mac OS and ran all Mac OS software that a court of law wouldn't think this was infringing on the rights of Microsoft or Apple? I think a court might even side with Microsoft on that. Just because Amiga Inc. is a lot smaller and most people have never heard of Amiga OS doesn't make it anymore legal to do the above. I think there is a reason no other company makes a ‘Windows Compatible’ OS.
I’m sure some company would love to sell a product for half the price of Windows XP that looks and feels exactly like Windows and runs the entire existing catalog of Microsoft Windows software, but I think they know they would probably have no legal ground to stand on.
Just my take (no I’m not a lawyer) :)
Amiga Guy
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Hello,
I guess you have to ask yourself, do you think that if Genesi had made an 'Operating System' (Morph XP) that looked and worked exactly like Windows XP and ran all Windows software or an 'Operating System' (Morph Mac) that looked and worked exactly like Mac OS and ran all Mac OS software that a court of law wouldn't think this was infringing on the rights of Microsoft or Apple? I think a court might even side with Microsoft on that. Just because Amiga Inc. is a lot smaller and most people have never heard of Amiga OS doesn't make it anymore legal to do the above. I think there is a reason no other company makes a ?Windows Compatible? OS.
Why do you think M$ didn't tried to sue Lindows about its compatibility with Windows and rather just about his name? (and even with that he lost ;) )
I help you, simply because they'd have lost and they know that. Even if Lindows look a bit like Windows and run a lot of Windows apps.
I?m sure some company would love to sell a product for half the price of Windows XP that looks and feels exactly like Windows and runs the entire existing catalog of Microsoft Windows software, but I think they know they would probably have no legal ground to stand on.
Well in fact it exists already ;) It doesn't look like Win XP but more like Win 2k but not exactly. It can run Win apps Btw and I mention it just before ;) Yes I'm speaking of Lindows ;) And for the legal aspect see my answer above :)
Btw MorphOS don't look exactly like AmigaOS 3.x. It has similarities bu it also has lot of differencies and new stuffs.
Additionally, the interface is themable if you want to make it look exactly like AmigaOS you can, just like you can do it on Win XP or MacOS X using themes.
But MorphOS has its own look & feel even if an Amiga user will indeed recognize some similarities with AmigaOS, it has not the exact same look & feel. In fact its look is just more modern ;)
Regards
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@amigaguy
Ever heard of Lindows ?
-
This may be a little off topic, and if it is, I apologize but I think its interesting maybe you do too.
Here is a nice recipe for pineapple upside down cake:
1/3 c. butter2/3 c. sugar1 1/2 c. flour1/3 tsp. salt2 eggs, separated2/3 c. water3 tsp. baking powder1 tsp. vanilla
Cream butter, add sugar, beaten egg yolks and vanilla. Add dry ingredients alternately with milk. Lastly add stiffly beaten egg whites. In the pan you will bake the cake in (I use large round skillet) melt 1/2 cup butter and 3/4 cup brown sugar. When melted and syrupy add slices of pineapple with maraschino cherries in the middle. Pour on batter. Bake at 325 degrees for about 35 minutes or until springs back to touch. When done take from oven, turn upside down on serving plate. Serve with whipped cream.
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@lempkee
I dont see that at all. I think perhaps you have
read the comments incorrectly.
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@amigaguy
Guess you've never heard of Lindows. Microsoft lost against them on very much the case you describe
http://lindows.com/
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From what I've heard WINE isn't close to being 'Windows Compatible'
Even at Lindows.com they pretty much say it's along way from being Windows compatible.
All quotes form Lindows.com:
"Question: What Microsoft® Windows applications will LindowsOS™ run?
Answer:The quick answer is that LindowsOS™ will not run Microsoft Windows applications at a level of quality we're satisfied with. "
or
"Can LindowsOS run software written for Microsoft® Windows?
Currently, LindowsOS users can Click-N-Run the Microsoft Windows Compatibility Program that allows LindowsOS to somewhat run a limited number of MS Windows compatible software programs."
or
"How well does WINE work in running MS Windows compatible programs?
Even with dozens of developers having contributed thousands of hours and lines of code to WINE, the challenge to run MS Windows compatible programs on Linux is a very big one, and it could be some time yet before WINE is advanced enough to reliably run the most popular MS Windows programs. WINE continues to make slow progress in running a select group of MS Windows programs, with varying degrees of success as to how well each program will run. Sometimes programs will "run," but have display problems, can't print, won't work with sound, crash, hang your system, and so on."
There are laws in the U.S. (or that's what I've heard anyway) to protect people from having there software ripped off . At least I think it would be pretty unfair for someone to rip off Mac OS and then force Apple to close it doors, but then again I have morals unlike some.
AmigaGuy
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Hello,
"There are laws in the U.S. (or that's what I've heard anyway) to protect people from having there software ripped off . At least I think it would be pretty unfair for someone to rip off Mac OS and then force Apple to close it doors, but then again I have morals unlike some."
You clearly misunderstood the case here.
Thendic have a contract about the AmigaDE that allow us to ask a port of the AmigaDE for their products (AFAIK).
According to what I understood, Thendic had asked a port to Amiga Inc for the Pegasos/MorphOS not so far away in the time. I can believe that as I remember Bill Buck to ask people opinion about a MorphOS port of AmigaDE in public (here and/or on ANN).
But it seems that Amiga Inc have refused and so breach the contract they signed with Thendic. That's why they sue them to have this contract respected.
This is justice, nothing more. Business justice yes, but justice anyway.
Regards
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> But it seems that Amiga Inc have refused and so breach the
> contract they signed with Thendic. That's why they sue them
> to have this contract respected.
If contract is like BH said, they have no chance, if it's only for WinCE how on hell can they impel Amiga to let them port it or make Amiga to port it to MorphOS!???
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@Frodon
I understand what you are saying and what the topic is about and I agree with you if Ainc did breach their contract. I was just replying to the off topic thread in here about the questionable legality if MorphOS.
AmigaGuy
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Poster: amigaguy Date: 2003/2/5 12:36:38
I guess you have to ask yourself, do you think that if Genesi had made an 'Operating System' (Morph XP) that looked and worked exactly like Windows XP and ran all Windows software or an 'Operating System' (Morph Mac) that looked and worked exactly like Mac OS and ran all Mac OS software that a court of law wouldn't think this was infringing on the rights of Microsoft or Apple? I think a court might even side with Microsoft on that. Just because Amiga Inc. is a lot smaller and most people have never heard of Amiga OS doesn't make it anymore legal to do the above. I think there is a reason no other company makes a ?Windows Compatible? OS.
I?m sure some company would love to sell a product for half the price of Windows XP that looks and feels exactly like Windows and runs the entire existing catalog of Microsoft Windows software, but I think they know they would probably have no legal ground to stand on.
Just my take (no I?m not a lawyer) :)
Amiga Guy
I am afraid that your thinking is not exactly correct.
In fact, there are other Windows API compatable OS's out there. There is even a semi-done Mac OS X compatable OS out there.
Even the Wine project has the clearly stated goal of being a Win32 API replacement.
These projects trying for Windows or Mac API's have one problem, lack of decent and complete documentation on the API's in question. One MCSE told me once "Windows undocumented API functions could filla book larger than it's documented ones."
This is not the case of AmigaOS, however. Commodore supplied very thurough documentation on every major release of the AmigaOS, detailing the API's in every detail. I own two copies of these documents, purchased on eBay. This means less guesswork about the API's and more getting down to getting things done.
AROS and MorphOS both utilized these public documents published with Commodore's blessing. Commodore didn't care, they were protected by patents.
Amiga, Inc doesn't own these patents, however. Thus, their protection is non-existant, only at the whim of Gateway.
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According to what I understood, Thendic had asked a port to Amiga Inc for the Pegasos/MorphOS not so far away in the time. I can believe that as I remember Bill Buck to ask people opinion about a MorphOS port of AmigaDE in public (here and/or on ANN).
But it seems that Amiga Inc have refused and so breach the contract they signed with Thendic. That's why they sue them to have this contract respected.
After listening to some of the plans laid out for Morphos, I wonder why anyone would even bother with AmigaDE..
This is justice, nothing more. Business justice yes, but justice anyway.
Starting to sound like revenge to me.
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@downix
AROS and MorphOS both utilized these public documents published with Commodore's blessing. Commodore didn't care, they were protected by patents.
Amiga, Inc doesn't own these patents, however. Thus, their protection is non-existant, only at the whim of Gateway.
If patents are still held then MorphOS may indeed be illegal whether legal action is taken or not.
AmigaGuy
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downix said:
If patents are still held then MorphOS may indeed be illegal whether legal action is taken or not.
This is the point. I remember a thread on Moo Bunny ages ago where Ralph Schmidt himself was saying that IP re: AmigaOS source code had been ruled by "that German judge" as being , I guess not technically Amiga's. Unfortunately the thread must have gone beyond Moo Bunny's archive limit as it was available a few weeks back and I can't find reference to it now.
Ralph wouldn't have said that if they didn't use the source code, he would have said "we didn't use the source code" :-)
Similarly bbrv has stated MorphOS being delayed, again there would be no delay if there were no issue.
Point being - the legality MAY have to be resolved, and I guess we'll find out in due time. Crying "it is 100% legal!" or "it is illegal!" when you don't actually know is pointless, if need be we'll find out.
Same with the "breach of contract" issue.
What is worrying is (as I have been saying could happen for many weeks now) that we have obviously entered the stage where litigation is flying. More delays and bitterness on all sides? Ho ho ho!
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AFAIK, Amiga Inc can very well not port their software but they HAVE to answer within a time
period. They exceeded that period ignoring them.
That's a breach of the contract, as this is written
in it.
That's what I understood.
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This is not the case of AmigaOS, however. Commodore supplied very thurough documentation on every major release of the AmigaOS, detailing the API's in every detail. I own two copies of these documents, purchased on eBay. This means less guesswork about the API's and more getting down to getting things done.
AROS and MorphOS both utilized these public documents published with Commodore's blessing. Commodore didn't care, they were protected by patents.
The one thing people seem to forget is that people at Phase5 had access to the Amiga source code and they are working now on the MorphOS source code. This fact puts more the burden on the MorphOS developers to proof they did take precautions that no Amiga source code was used for the competitive product they are developing.
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I think the persian gulf is COOLER place to be than the Amiga community nowdays...
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Check this out (http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/bnsviewer?CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=US6507951&ID=US+++6507951B1+I+)
Note the date of the patent...
Any comments or remarks?
? (http://www.a7eng.com/)
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Note the date of the patent...
This is not the patent discussed, however. But it is a very interesting patent, one of the last ones ever created with the Amiga name on it.
Pity it doesn't cover any of the technologies being discussed here, such as right-mouse-button clicks. I thought this had evolved into a "What does MorphOS do illegally" arguement, which this patent doesn't even touch.
But, it is a very interesting patent, and showed a very advanced concept of computer architecture that would have made AmigaObjects the pride of Gateway.
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AmigaGuy (and others),
All though the thread, if I am skimming with any comprehension, there seem to be lots of users confused by the difference between actually using source code, and simply supplying compatible APIs by clean-room design and developed with available documentation (of which there is plenty, as Downix points out).
Anyway, there is a huge difference legally, a huge difference in the delivered code base (and in some cases, even the OS architecture could be significantly different). And as some have pointed out, there are legal precedents.
As for whom would need to prove what in such a case, the burden of proof would fall on Amiga Inc to show in court after filing suit that IP (source code) had been infringed/used; compatible APIs are no sin or crime here. Well, Amiga blustered months back and even publicly issued a deadline (for amnesty?) but I see absolutely no signs that they followed through on anything like this.
To address another (rhetorical?) query here: the reason Genesi has pressed suit is unrelated entirely, and evidently because it seemed to be the only way to get a response after contractual agreements failed to be honored. Notice I said "evidently": it is for the court to decide. And it isn't cheap to do this for Genesi, but when parties agree to sign a contract and later one does not honor it, someone often feels it needs to be resolved.
I think it's the same as it would be for any of us, had we contracted for services or products and failed to recieve them, or even have queries about fulfilling those obligations acknowledged. I'm not sure how deep it goes and wouldn't gossip about it if I did, but that's the picture to the best of my knowledge.
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All though the thread, if I am skimming with any comprehension, there seem to be lots of users confused by the difference between actually using source code, and simply supplying compatible APIs by clean-room design and developed with available documentation (of which there is plenty, as Downix points out).
Here's what I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me here.
How can someone build a compatible API without getting information from the origional source code?
And if you build api's that act exactly like the origional enviornment, then you would have to write it the same way, although you would extend it further.
And the available documentation that you speak of also would have to be source code.
Correct?
So no matter how you say it, it always comes back to the origional source code.
If you're going to emulate the Amiga OS and extend it, you're gonna have to do it with the origional source code.
Correct?
What other documentation would there be that would even start to help that is not source code?
Doesn't make sense to me.
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To address another (rhetorical?) query here: the reason Genesi has pressed suit is unrelated entirely, and evidently because it seemed to be the only way to get a response after contractual agreements failed to be honored. Notice I said "evidently": it is for the court to decide. And it isn't cheap to do this for Genesi, but when parties agree to sign a contract and later one does not honor it, someone often feels it needs to be resolved.
And I have yet to hear anyone answer the statement that this "contract" was for the SmartBoy running WindowsCE and NOT Morphos. If that is the case, how do you justify what you just said. You are presuming Amiga to be guilty without trial. It's really funny that on November 24, 2002 Bill Buck had this to say about AmigaDE:
If there is anyone interested in working as a *paid* Developer for this "special" project, that is, bringing MorphOS and Amiga DE together then please contact us. It might be interesting to do, but as before and for the moment now, we do not see the value of such an effort.
He see's no value in such an effort. Then only just over 1 month later a lawsuit is filed against Amiga. I see who is stirring crap here. As anyone should be able to if they open their eyes. This is one big attempt to tie Amiga up in litigation and drain any possible amount of money he can from them in lawyers fees. Viscorp and Phase5 will get their revenge yet!
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Here's what I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me here.
How can someone build a compatible API without getting information from the origional source code?
Easy, you use other sources of information. For programs to be able to use an OS's API's, they will need the documentation on how to interface with the OS's API's. Otherwise, you can't run any apps.
And if you build api's that act exactly like the origional enviornment, then you would have to write it the same way, although you would extend it further.
And the available documentation that you speak of also would have to be source code.
Correct?
I'm afraid not. API's work via a system of interfaces and calls to those interfaces. What lies behind those interfaces is a complete mystery to the program, they only know to use a specific API call and get a specific result. How things work between call and result can be done one of a hundred ways, as shown by the various mechanisms to impliment the POSIX API in many OS's
So no matter how you say it, it always comes back to the origional source code.
If you're going to emulate the Amiga OS and extend it, you're gonna have to do it with the origional source code.
Correct?
Incorrect. AROS has done it without any source code. They just read the documentation on the system API's, and then created a new system that uses the same API calls to the same results. The inner-mechanism for these can be worlds different. One could use a message-passing mechanism as in a microkernel, one could use a dynamic library setup as in an executive library, and yet another methodology is to make the API calls directly to a monolithic kernel.
What other documentation would there be that would even start to help that is not source code?
Doesn't make sense to me.
The documentation used in this case are the infamous Rom Kernel Manuals, published by Commodore Business Machines. I happen to own 2 complete sets of these manuals, the Brown and the Grey editions. I can state quite clearly:
These books contain no source code to the Amiga Operating System.
(Ironically, one edition does include partial schemaitcs for a segment of the Amiga chipset that were covered by patents, the blitter)
Please, purchase a copy of these books on eBay and read them. They have complete docs on the API's, library system, even the style of the AmigaOS widget set. With them, it is more than possible to clone an OS's API's without using a single line of code, nor even using the same mechanism for how the system operates.
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If that is the case, how do you justify what you just said. You are presuming Amiga to be guilty without trial.
Please put the bifocals on. I said nothing about guilt, or whose guilt, used the word "evidently" to qualify what I did say, and "it is for the court to decide".
I know you want to everyone to think Genesi is baaad-they're bad! But you are loading your verbiage with way more "presumption" than I think mine carried. But whatever; I suppose we all have our versions of what is or could have been, and that's why some things end up in court.
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I'm glad a JUDGE is going to decide this case instead of a WEB FORUM FLAME WAR!
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Here's what I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me here.
How can someone build a compatible API without getting information from the origional source code?
And if you build api's that act exactly like the origional enviornment, then you would have to write it the same way, although you would extend it further.
And the available documentation that you speak of also would have to be source code.
Correct?
So no matter how you say it, it always comes back to the origional source code.
If you're going to emulate the Amiga OS and extend it, you're gonna have to do it with the origional source code.
Correct?
What other documentation would there be that would even start to help that is not source code?
Doesn't make sense to me.
Is NT source code been released? If not, how do you explain:
ReactOS
(http://reactos.com/)
Dammy
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I agree with Moutain_Myst. I *REALLY* don't like this new trend where companies are trying to emulate or reverse engineer other applications or operating systems.
The reason for this is hypocritical. Everyone wants a new product that is much better than anything we have used before. But, getting software support is a big challenge. So, the logical step is to pull stunts like Lindows, and leech off Windows. Make a better OS to run the same crap that we've always run, and it doesn't ususally run better since it *IS* just emulation.
Even if your system doesn't use any code from the original product, you're still stealing *something*. Code isn't the only IP, you know. You're stealing ideas, designs, methods, principles, formats, standards... companies work just as hard to develop and standardize their design as they do to write their code. But, who cares? Design is just all about looking pretty, right? Design has nothing to do with functionality, right? MacOS X is just a pretty version of UNIX, right?
Hell, just look at Linux. Most new Linux distributions I've seen claim to be better than what's offered by the "Evil Empire", but the machines look and function just like Windows. Red Hat 6 was a per-pixel *COPY* of the Win95 interface, from the highlights on the buttons, to the shape of the windows, to the color of the desktop, and right down to the word "Start" on the application menu. It wasn't compatible with Explorer.exe, but it worked almost exactly like it!
It was nothing more than a damn stunt to convince people Linux could easily be compared to Windows. Look! It looks the same! It's Windows, only better!
Until, of course, you wanted to install drivers or something, and then the true Linux core showed its ugly self big-time!
The whole world is full of damn hypocrites! Personally, I think the MorphOS people are really pushing their luck.
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Hello,
Here's what I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me here.
How can someone build a compatible API without getting information from the origional source code?
No I'll try to explain this more practically below.
And if you build api's that act exactly like the origional enviornment, then you would have to write it the same way, although you would extend it further.
And the available documentation that you speak of also would have to be source code.
Correct?
So no matter how you say it, it always comes back to the origional source code.
If you're going to emulate the Amiga OS and extend it, you're gonna have to do it with the origional source code.
Correct?
What other documentation would there be that would even start to help that is not source code?
Doesn't make sense to me.
Well what do you have in an API documentation generally:
You have the API prototypes, example for a function:
int toto (char* titi, int ta);
Than you have explaination so the programmer understand how to use the function and what it does exactly:
Ex: The toto function is a function to pass a message to titi and tell if this is the final message (ta=1 if yes, 0 if not).
It return 1 if the message have been received by titi, 0 if not.
Ok this is a very simple example. Then you the only thing you have to take care when you want to recreate this function is that your recreated function takes the same arguments, do the same job (send a message to titi and tell him it's the last one, as well as check if he received it) and return the same value (1 if titi received the message, 0 if not).
In a nutshell you have to do the same work that have been done by the original engineer of the function when he created it. That is to say, you have to reinvent it.
That's what have done the AROS Team and that what have done the MOS Team (with the help of the already done work of the AROS Team).
I hope this help you to understand better (even if the example is very simple ;) )
Regards
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Hello Wacoon,
Just a little remark. Open your eyes! This is how the world is progressing!
Using ideas of the past and improve them.
Do you want people to always reinvent everything? What alternative to a wheel would you invent if you don't allow people to use the wheel idea?
Personnaly I'm european, here we don't have software patents and lot of people don't want them. I'm particularly supporting the no software patents campaign by EuroLinux (http://petition.eurolinux.org/) as I think it's something that can stop the innovation.
How can you innovate if you always have to reinvent something different for doing the same thing (what about when you can't do it differently?) for everything protected by a software patent? If you can't concentrate only on new innovating stuff because you have to concentrate to invent stuff that do what old protected stuff already do, it's not very good.
I personnally think that the world can only progress significantly by sharing the ideas and concepts invented. Because I think that there is always someone that can use your ideas and concepts to create something new or improve your invention.
Ok this is just a matter of opinion. This is very polemistic subject and I won't blame anyone who don't have the same opinion than me. You are free to think what you want :) This was just MY opinion ;)
Regards
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To address another (rhetorical?) query here: the reason Genesi has pressed suit is unrelated entirely, and evidently because it seemed to be the only way to get a response after contractual agreements failed to be honored. Notice I said "evidently": it is for the court to decide. And it isn't cheap to do this for Genesi, but when parties agree to sign a contract and later one does not honor it, someone often feels it needs to be resolved.
Um...well I don't need bifocals to see that there are 2 sentences that end with the presumption that Amiga broke their contract. Yeah, I know you stepped around abit to word it. But the assumption is there clearly.
But whatever; I suppose we all have our versions of what is or could have been, and that's why some things end up in court.
Exactly. That's why I think this should have never been posted here, or in any public light until the court has made a ruling. But you know what I think about why it was posted in public forums. Because thats the way Genesi (BB) does business. It's all about creating a psychological frame of mind in your competitiors potential customers. Ever played an online game like Unreal Tournament where your opponent keeps heckling you to try and distract you so you won't play as well.... That's Bill Bucks game.
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This one cracks me up. Ten years from now you can come back and see folks promising OS4 real soon now and Bill Buck or is it Herb Tarlick in his white shoes and belt making every claim under the sun.
A fact for everyone: the number of people who care about either system is getting smaller by the second. I spent the money I had set aside for an Amiga overChristmas on a nice wintel box and a wintel laptop. I have AF5 if I get too nostalgic.
Ten years ago I watched the same kind of zealotry torpedo a very nice computer system. It pissed me off then but now as I watch all this I am more amused than anything else.
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Well.. to many this all is just alternative (a hobby) while using X86 systems for work. In that use it may have a future, but getting something as old and primitive as OS4 to punch thru on desktop use is quite impossible dream. So, as a hobby it's not too bad, even though lack of honest/open information and Fud-wars are not best way to keep people around.
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Open your eyes! This is how the world is progressing!
Laissez faire! All innovation is progress! Quality is irrelevant! Tehcnology always trumps functionality!
I'm a designer, not a programmer. I care very much about being able to control and market your own ideas so you can earn a living. Patents never used to last forever, but, the world is progressing!
Do you want people to always reinvent everything? What alternative to a wheel would you invent if you don't allow people to use the wheel idea?
I think the patent on the wheel ran out a long, long time ago. ;-)
I personnally think that the world can only progress significantly by sharing the ideas and concepts invented.
What ever happened to "scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours?" That's what the sharing of ideas *IS*!!!
Trade tools with other companies. Make business partnerships. Test and certify your products. Support your customers. Build a reputation. Earn a living. If you screw up, you'll suffer... so don't screw up or sell out on your partners.
Ah, screw it! We'll just make an emulator and run all YOUR software! After all, it's the only way we can compete with people who have been in the business for 20 years and have gotten good at it! WAAAAAH!
Oh yeah, we want everything for FREE, and a tech support line, too.
Because I think that there is always someone that can use your ideas and concepts to create something new or improve your invention.
Which obviously invalidates your effort on the invention.
Let me tell you something about improving on other people's ideas. Years ago, there was only one JPEG standard and all was well. Today, just about every company adds their own special meta data into JPEG files. As a result, about 50% of the JPEG files I take in every day don't work on our Kodak DLS printer. I have to "strip" the extra data out of the files before I can send them to the printer. I've even run into JPEGs that will load in ACDSee, but not Photoshop. I would MUCH prefer to have a single standard that gets replaced every few years, than have a thousand variations of the same standard. I don't want to see five variations of the JPEG format with the file extention ".JPG". I want each version of JPEG to have its own file extention, so we can tell which is which.
But, wait! We can't do that! Nobody will support the format! We *HAVE* to make a new standard and accept it as compatible with the old standard to force it to work with old applicaions that weren't designed to use the new standard! Compatibility is irrelevant! Confusion is a non issue! Upgrading is mandatory! Innovation rules!
I'll take invention over innovation, anyday. Better to get it done right the first time!
JPEG's aren't that unreliable, but there are lots of other "standards" that have similar compatibility problems because people don't want to make something new when they can just leech off an existing technology and pass it off as the "same thing".
Remember, we're not talking about new software. We're talking about emulation. Not making it truly better, just trying to make it as compatible as possible. Look up the defenition of "emulation".
I belive that if you invent something, you have the right to sell it any way you want. If you want to sell a music CD for $100, that doesn't give anyone the right to steal it because it costs too much. Why not? It's still your CD!
Patents, like most laws, help inventors earn profit from their efforts. They *CAN* be taken too far. The war of the consumer verses the lawyer is the example of human nature. But that should not invalidate the work of the inventor.
We should improve on ideas, not clone them. But, hey, "This is how the world is progressing!"
Of course, whether it's stealing or innovation, simply depens who is suing whom, really.
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Hello Waccoon,
Ok you seem to have understood nothing of what I said. Never mind, I'll not waste my time any longer to re-explain.
I'm a bit tired to explain things to people and see people completely misinterprete what I explain (which seem to be something quite often in this community :( ). So I will not waste my time any longer.
I just hope that some people understood correctly, so that I didn't completely wasted my time. For the others, never mind.
Regards
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Is NT source code been released?
yes and no. lol
U.K. government gets access to Microsoft source code (http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/01/31/HNsourcecode_1.html?platforms)
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Poster: Terminills Date: 2003/2/6 22:01:05
Quote:
Is NT source code been released?
yes and no. lol
U.K. government gets access to Microsoft source code
I'm still waiting for his explaination about ReactOS having the same API as NT without M$ releasing the source code. I have a feeling I won't be getting a reply from him. ;)
Dammy
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We are just posting here so we could reach 100 posts on www.amiga.org!
:-)
This thread was absolutely full of conjecture.
Facts will eventually be available.
Sincerely,
R&B :-)