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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: L8-X on November 24, 2002, 09:03:35 PM
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Saw this on ANN...is this really true?????
Alkis Tsapanidis points out a comment posted by Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco in the Genesi on /. thread. "Thendic (and all affiliated companies) hold a valid worldwide right and license to Amiga DE, the "Amiga" patents, and all associated copyrights and trademarks. This Agreement was signed between ourselves and Bill McEwen on 10 November 2000. The Agreement remains in effect today."
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Yes ... in a way.
Note that this is over 2 years old, targeted solely at AmigaDE and can probably be cancelled due to EU law and the genesi merger.
No effect at all.
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Phew! :-o
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Thendic most certainly holds no Amiga patents. And regarding that ancient AmigaDE license, it was solely for a device running PocketPC in conjunction with AmigaDE.
IMO this news item is very misleading, and as I stated on ANN, unless you want to cause confusion, totally not news worthy.
(Other than that I have been told that Thendic did not pay Amiga Inc the required money for using this license, so IMO it would be best to take such statements with a grain of salt)
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????
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bah...just another desperate act of getting in the
headlines again...
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Of all the different instances of alleged FUD here and at ANN, this is actually a textbook example of what *real* FUD looks like. bPlan/Thendic makes a statement that sounds like it could mean something ("We have an Amiga license") and posts it to a discussion site known to attract people with extreme opinions (ANN). When all the dialog starts ("so what exactly does that mean?") they just sit back and watch the zealots from both sides slug it out. If enough people demand more info, they just make cryptic statements ("just read paragraph 4.2 of this document that only 5 or 6 people are legally allowed to look at") . Eventually enough noise is generated that Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt creep in as a natural side-effect.
Gotta hand it to these guys, they took a market leader (Microsoft), analyzed what put them at the top of the foodchain (all the court transcripts (http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_depos.htm) are freely available on the web) and got to work.
:madashell:
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I find it hard to believe anything from them.
I actually don't see the point in them mentioning this, as they stated on ANN that they have this licence (whatever it actually is) but they're not going to use it. So... I guess they believe that there is no such thing as bad publicity.
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Hi CodeSmith...
We posted this on another thread here on www.amiga.org:
Not a Fake!
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Here it is again:
Thendic holding Amiga licence and patents? : Comment 21 of 22
Posted by bbrv (212.198.0.93) on 24-Nov-2002 16:13:18
Here is an official statement that we have made before on Amiga-News:
http://www.amiga-news.de/archiv02/020417_interview_bb_pt.shtml
It says (toward the end): Thendic France: We will release and promote the products whether there is cooperation with Amiga Inc. or not. They have chosen their principal direction with AmigaDE. Great. We have tried to work with them, but we want to do what we want to do -- not what they want to force us to do. It would be wonderful if we could work together, but this is not a precondition for us to move ahead. We would like to cooperate with Amiga. We (Thendic-Germany) were the first organization to achieve an Amiga DE license (our lawyers wrote the license agreement) and we would have been happy to extend our current license --and pre-pay royalties -- but we unfortunately cannot get them to see things our way. Amiga belongs to them so that is their call. We are going ahead anyway.
@all concerned
We signed this agreement with Bill McEwen on 10 November 2000 when we were not competitors, but rather partners. The Agreement gives us a worldwide license for AmigaDE (not the "classic" OS) and use of the "Amiga" patents and trademarks. Under the terms of the Agreement we even have the right to sublicense under certain terms and conditions (which are actually very easy to meet). What has happened since that time is unfortunate, but the Agreement still stands. If we thought there was something useful we could do with Amiga DE we would.
If there is anyone interested in working as a *paid* Developer for this "special" project, that is, bringing MorphOS and Amiga DE together then please contact us. It might be interesting to do, but as before and for the moment now, we do not see the value of such an effort. Please convince us otherwise if we are incorrect.
We appreciate ANN very much. The quality of the posts here can be as good or bad as they are anywhere else. ANN has been of great assistance to us over the last year. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
P.S. We appreciate www.amiga.org too!
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Contrary to the comments here there was nothing misleading about the original statement on ANN. It says we have a license to DE and we do. It says we have a license to use the Amiga patents in the devices we develop and we do. It says we can use the trademarks in conjunction with these devices and we can. If AmigaOS5 is supposed to be a magical merger of the OS4 and DE, why couldn't MorphOS and DE? Well, we do not really think this is a particularly useful direction, BUT we are willing to fund the development of this IF there is someone out there that can actually do it. Please send us an email.
Mike Bouma, you pass yourself off as an impartial journalist. You are not. If you had read the 10 November Agreement then you would not that you are VERY incorrect in your statements. You will also notice that Ben Hermans has not responded to the subsequent post we made in the ANN thread. He does have a copy of the Agreement and he knows we are quite correct in our statements. Further, if you have read it, how? Did someone who had signed an NDA let you read it? The Agreement is valid. There are no royalties currently due. Your claims are wrong and *your* statements as usual distort the truth.
Back to Mr. CodeSmith and Bellvue, Washingtom :-), this statement DOES mean something. We "put our money where our mouth is." Can you do this development? Can you find us someone who can do this development and/or who can really explain why it would be useful to do this? What do our statements have to do with FUD? We made this agreement with Amiga Inc. in a POSITIVE spirit -- no one forced Bill McEwen to sign the Agreement. What is wrong with trying to resurrect that cooperation? Yes, we do think the Message Boards are very useful to understand the various opinions. That is why we post. If you can try to understand what we have posted here, we will sincerely try to answer to your objections.
We invite Bill McEwen or Fleecy Moss to post here, on ANN, MooBunny, or even MorphOS-News. You have not answered our constructive emails, so post here. How about a genuine response and not real FUD about the legality of MorphOS for example.
Finally, for all of you that are so quick to criticize the use of these Boards to publicize opinions or ambitions, what are you doing? How does the field of action look from the bleechers? Worse, how about those anonymous folks who do not even have enough guts to say "here I am," but throw mud from hidden positions with no intention of responsibility or accountability. Who is a "Punk?"
This community still has plenty of potential. We are making a genuine and diligent effort to pull some of this back together. The Genesi Team have spent quite a bit of money, expended resources and devoted significant time to enable the success of the Pegasos and MorphOS -- these are originally created products. Any of you laid out a working PCB lately? How about an OS? Who is "leeching" from who? Ask yourself, "what have I done today to be part of all this," irregardless of which "side" of the arguement you take? If you can do something creative and productive, we have a place for you. Our team gets a paycheck and will be rewarded with a proportional amount of the success. In the meanwhile, if we can figure out ways to bring this creative community together again we will. When the Slashdots thousands arrive (as they did at www.morphos-news,de this past weekend), it would be better for them to see at least the appearence of a united front. Maybe, we could agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Sincerely,
R&B
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Blah blah blah.
/Björn
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Dear R&B,
It says we have a license to use the Amiga patents in the devices we develop and we do. It says we can use the trademarks in conjunction with these devices and we can
Well, according to Bill McEwen on ANN, or a post by someone claiming to be Bill on ANN, this is not the case.
http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1038088382&category=web&number=22 (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1038088382&category=web&number=22)
So, please act in a professional manner and take this discussion offline. After all, it's something that needs to be sorted out between Thendic France and Amiga Inc. IMO, inviting Bill McEwen or Fleecy Moss to post on message boards and discuss matters of this nature is totally unprofessional.
Regards,
Fotios.
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Hi Fotios,
Yes, thank you for the link. Here is our response:
Genesi's turn to be featured on Slashdot. : Comment 24 of 24
Posted by bbrv (212.198.0.93) on 25-Nov-2002 07:09:14
In Reply to Comment 23:
Dear Bill,
Of course, Amiga Inc. is the only holder of the IP. That is why we reached and Agreement about the license.
1. Please refer to Paragraph 4.2 concerning the issue you make about DE, the patents and the trademarks. You are incorrect. You are being "misleading," not us.
2. Yes, the list of products did initially include the SmartBoy which was developed for use with WindowsCE. However, the Agreement is quite clear that it applies to "any" Thendic product. We call your attention to Paragraph 2 of Appendix A specifically.
Bill, you have gone through a hard time and fought against incredible odds. Please do not let this this potential show of support become distored.
Sincerely,
R&B
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This is precisely the reason we have finally felt it was necessary to go 'public." How is this effort unprofessional? We are interested in gaining the support of the Community and to make a fully informed decision the Community should know all the facts. Certainly, you are entitiled to you opinion, but the Community is our FIRST interest and focus here on these threads -- NOT Amiga Inc. Amiga Inc. does not own the "amiga spirit" or the Community.
Sincerely,
R&B
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@bbrv:
First, why the smiley next to my hometown? yes, most people familiar with computers know that Microsoft has its offices here. But if I look across the street from my apartment I can see Nintendo's offices, right next to Digipen, the videogame school. Walk a bit and you can see S3's offices. Drive half an hour (not an unreasonable commute) and I'm in Bill McEwen's office. You have no idea if I'm even employed right now, the recession hit this state pretty hard. You are using innuendo to try and discredit me ("oh no, he lives right next to the Beast - he obviously works there, probably in the 'crush the competition' division"), and I don't appreciate this.
Secondly, here is a cut'n'paste of your post at ann.lu:
Here is something for you all to consider...;-)
Thendic (and all affiliated companies) hold a valid worldwide right and license to Amiga DE, the "Amiga" patents, and all associated copyrights and trademarks. This Agreement was signed between ourselves and Bill McEwen on 10 November 2000. The Agreement remains in effect today.
Who knows what the future could hold?!
Best regards,
Raquel and Bill
So, what *exactly* does that mean? If you say something like "we have rights to use these licenses, so we plan on doing ", that's an announcement. The announcement is whatever you're planning, the licenses are just a means to an end. Simply saying that you have the licenses is a means without an end. This does not make sense so most people will try and imagine what that end is. If those people are the ann crowd (not that I have anything against them, but they *are* excitable), you end up with all sorts of weird theories and misinformation flying around. Add to that the tone of the message, ie "we have a signed contract, so we can use the name 'amiga' whether you want us to or not'" and you are guaranteed an 100+ post thread. Lots of bad stuff flying around and your hands are completely clean - you just made an innocent little post, it was all those other people who blew it out of proportion.
Next, the paragraph you keep on mentioning - I bet that you'd get in trouble if you just posted it here, since it's probably confidential. If so, why mention it? if you feel you must make a response on the forum do so, but keep 'secret' stuff to private mails (post something like "Bill, I believe you're incorrect - see the personal mail I sent you"). Anything else is more speculation waiting to happen.
To finish my little rant, here is Bill McEwen's reply to your post on ann:
In Reply to Comment 17:
I am sorry to report that the statements made here are very misleading and incorrect.
The contract mentioned was for AmigaDE on Windows CE. It does not in ANY way have anything to do with patents, or our IP.
Amiga, Inc. is the only holder of our IP
Regards,
Bill McEwen
Please stop trying to use the 'court of public opinion'. If you have something you're working on, sort it out with the relevant parties in private and *then* make an announcement. If you're genuinely trying to bridge the two camps then I apologize, but your current attempts at online diplomacy are causing more harm than good.
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use of the "Amiga" patents and trademarks, reguarding DE only?
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@CodeSmith
"but your current attempts at online diplomacy are causing more harm than good"
True indeed.
/Björn
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Hi CodeSmith...
That was a good "smiley." Raquel's brother used to live in Bellvue and I have been to Fort Lewis many times -- and arriving in many different ways...;-) Hooah!
Yes, we are courting public opinion. Please read the post you must have just missed above. Again, you are certainly entitiled to your opinion, but in our view this whole approach has had VERY positive effect for us.
Sincerely,
R&B
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"Yes, we are courting public opinion."
LoL, well atleast they admit to it.
/Björn
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@ Bill Buck
Mike Bouma, you pass yourself off as an impartial journalist.
I keep hearing the same statements from you guys over and over again.
Once more, as I have stated this publicly many times already:
1) I am an AmigaOS fan, my articles are therefor biased from an AmigaOS fan point of view.
2) My views are based on the information available to me. Based on the information available to me, this news item is very misleading and based on an ancient agreement for a PocketPC powered device.
3) In my opinion everyone is biased to some extend. In fact, you are trying to create positive bias towards you among Amiga journalists, for example by offering them discounts on Pegasos hardware.
Further, if you have read it, how? Did someone who had signed an NDA let you read it?
Exactly, you are pointing to parts of the legal document which are under NDA. You know Ben will not reveal what is written under paragraph 4.2, so you are only sowing confusion.
There are no royalties currently due.
And will there ever be an intention to actually use this license (paying royalties)? In general my feeling is that you acquired this license originally solely to create mindshare among the Amiga community. Yes that's my opinion. You guys even announced this "agreement" far before Amiga Inc was ready to do so. IMO that says alot.
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Yawn Bill buck Yawn Almathera Yawn Morphos Yawn Pegasozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
:-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P
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You guys even announced this "agreement" far before Amiga Inc was ready to do so. IMO that says alot.
In retrospect it looks pretty much like thendic planned to drop Amiga from the beginning and just needed such an announcement to lure some developers and potential buyers away.
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We have tried to work with them, but we want to do what we want to do -- not what they want to force us to do. It would be wonderful if we could work together, but this is not a precondition for us to move ahead.
There is the source of the problem!
If I have it right then Thendic wanted to play in Amiga Incs house but Amiga said Thendic has to play a certain game. Thendic didn't want to play that game and so went home.
If Thendic had gone along with Amiga Inc and done what Amiga Inc wanted initially then they would have the relationship to 'expand' the idea later.
Now we see that Amiga Inc is about to get the result of its labour. All the kids are going to Amiga Incs house and Thendic wants to play again.
I think Thendic need to keep knocking and eat a bit of humble pie for a while.
Valan
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Finally, for all of you that are so quick to criticize the use of these Boards to publicize opinions or ambitions, what are you doing? How does the field of action look from the bleechers? Worse, how about those anonymous folks who do not even have enough guts to say "here I am," but throw mud from hidden positions with no intention of responsibility or accountability. Who is a "Punk?"
I am one of the anonymous critics on ANN (simply because i cant be bothered to type a meaningless handle for every post but thats another story).
My first reaction to this would be a wholehearted "FUKU". On second thought Id like to refine my answer.
What I am doing is critizing YOU for mentionting a 2 years old contract that ...
... has been agreed to under different circumstances
... applies only under certain conditions which you fail to mention
... is closed under nda and therefor cant be checked by the public
... was mentioned in a away that implies it would have any effect which it obviously does not
... was mentioned in a very unprofessional way on a public forum (i realize the news item was posted by alkis not thendic itself)
... could possibly be cancelled due to the genesi merger
... was brought up originally in a completely unrelated thread
Either post the contract you keep talking about in public or ...
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Hi Ketzer,
Why don't you come to Aachen and we can discuss this face to face. You can sign an NDA like Ben Hermans and read the contract. You will discover that you and others are in complete error concerning this Agreement.
Why don't you make an attempt to see this from another perspective?
Best regards,
R&B
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What is the point of all this?
Chipping away at the public awareness towards the legitamacy of your claim will not solve the major issue.
Thendic want to be part of the Amiga product.
If the license is legal then take the evidence to a court and get a court order for amiga Inc to supply you with the goods. Amiga Inc has already stated that the legallity of licenses will be judged in court and not through forums.
Valan
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I, too, wonder what all the fuss is about here. Being at work currently I don't have the time to study it in more detail, but after a first quick read I really wonder what's going on here at amiga.org. I.e. what problem the commentators here do have with that piece of information.
There has been a thread on ANN in which someone rose the question about AmigaDE for MorphOS. This lead bbrv to mention that they still do have a valid license for AmigaDE - so that this could be a possibility if there would be someone wanting to do this project for and paid by Thendic.
Therefore I clearly can't understand all the mud-wrestling here against Thendic. Someone asked a question at ANN, Thendic replied to it - and normally that could have been all, End of Discussion.
I fail to see the point all of you here have against Thendic. Even you, Ketzer, although you at least mentioned a few points - but how could you condemn bbrv for talking about a contract nobody of the public can read and in the same moment use the very same contract yourself against them?
And again: Thendic just replied to a question regarding the possibility of AmigaDE for their products. The FUD out of it has been made by others afterwards, but clearly not by Genesi & friends.
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Furthermore again I think it's a very good thing Thendic makes all these things public so that the community (which has been told plenty of lies in the past already - by the current Amiga Inc. as well) has a chance to make their own opinion about all this.
Nobody could control which side would say the truth if all that would only happen through "the official channels".
Thendic shows the readiness to speak about it in public, among witnesses. While Amiga Inc. & Co. seem to have reasons to don't do so...
Btw: Is the lone, orphaned Pegasos still waiting for his new daddy in Paris...?
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@ Senex
Interesting opinion you have there, I would have said exactly the opposite. To bring all this confusion onto the public, is the worst you could IMO do for the sake of the Amiga community.
There are tons of examples where leading figures have fought issues publicly, with the witness of the general public. IMO this has greatly degraded and damaged the general image of the entire Amiga community.
For example, revealing Fleecy's confidential email meant solely for Bill Buck personally in the past, was very bad IMO. Just like Mr Buck now wants to discuss NDAed material on public forums.
Personally, I don't want to see Amiga employees fighting a "Did so" / "Did not" game on public forums.
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The public cannot make up their mind because the public cannot see the contract. That is also why its unprofessional to discuss this in public. There is no benefit at all to the community - only more confusion.
@bbrv:
Im not sure yet if i will be in aachen. I am definately sure that im not even slightly interested in your product(s) and I see no reason to legally bind myself just to verify a claim made in some newsgroup.
Even if i did ... its legal talk and must be interpreted by a court and i wouldnt be able to discuss my findings afterwards (nda).
Edit: Since this whole things is under nda ... how come you can make claims to its contents without breaking said nda?
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** boing boing **
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Approach to heal the community Type 1:
"Hi all.
We can see that there is some interrest in running AmigaDE software on MorphOS. In the year 2000 we spoke with Amiga Inc about AmigaDE on our PDA style device and signed a licence agreement to run AmigaDE. This could form a basis to porting AmigaDE to MorphOS and if there are some developers willing to take on such a task we would in turn be willing to contact Amiga Inc about this issue.
Regards
R&B"
Approach to heal the community Type 2:
R&B: "We have a contract to use AmigaDE as we see fit and use all Amiga trademarks and patents!!"
Community: "Wha? Huh? really?"
AInc: "Hmm, no you don't."
R&B: "Yes we do! Look at paragraph 4.2, haha!"
R&B: "They left the discussion so we must be right, haha! They have done so before, so we must be even more right! Haha! We are the ones trying to heal the community!"
/Björn
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I totally agree with Senex.
Bill&Raquel/Thendic/Genesi give only information concerning some points (by answering always correctly to everybody), and some people try only to attack them without arguments and reasons except uninformation.
And @ all who say "in a very unprofessional way on a public forum" concerning Bill&Raquel/Thendic/Genesi : do you really think that Hermans, Moss,... interventions/posts on forums (like ANN or Amiga.org) are more professional ??... (especially Ben Hermans the first, as OS project leader, should take more, professional, distance himself...).
Personnally, I follow Pegasos/MorphOS/bPlan/Thendic since the beginning, and what I see everytime is a great, and serious, work to offer the best product (machine & OS) to the Amiga Community and outside the Community.
But, what I see too often on forums like Amiga.org (or ANN), are people who don't respect this hard and excellent work !
When I read some posts/comments, I'm sure that a majority of you have NEVER really seen, and tested/used, the Pegasos/MorphOS running, and all the work, with today results, of Thendic/bPlan/Genesi.
Before to judge something, wait and see. And speak only about what you really know. For that, try to come to Meetings & Shows where Pegasos/MorphOS are demonstrated, especially the next Aachen in Germany ;-) (where will be sold to anybody the first really new product in the Amiga market since 1994 :-))
So, be constructive and respectuous, please.
"we are all in the same boat" ;-)
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@Ketzer:
Well, why can't Mr. McEwen - after already posting a comment on ANN - also comment if bbrv's claim regarding §4.2 is true or not?
And since you said it's up to the court if it's still valid or not - then WHY all those comments here on Amiga.org using the opportunity for mud-wrestling against Thendic? Stay calm then. As I said, in the beginning there just has been an answer to a question somewhere deep in a thread at ANN. Seems some AI-fans didn't like that piece of information (although basically being old news already) and THEY then started all the fuss about it.
So much hate and prejudices (or did you actually use a Pegasos already at an Amiga-show) against their products. Why? Fearing the "Amifan-effect"...?
Sorry, but as I said already, I fail to understand any rational reason for all this Anti-Thendic-mood here.
@Mike:
Okay, then we agree to disagree. Being liberal in general and even more after all the lies towards the Amiga community in the past, especially also by AI & Co, I prefer to get as much information aspossible in public instead of believing blindly into everything Amiga Inc. is telling me. Especially if, as in your case (as you said on ANN), my source is Mr. McEwen who's latest interview speaks for itself...
If AI tells the truth there's no need for secret "official channels" - they could answer right here and now. (As they did before.)
@ (the current) Amiga Inc.:
So, AI, does §4.2 of the mentioned contract include the usage of the Amiga trademark and patents together with the AmigaDE license or not?
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@jedi
Many, if not most amiga.org posters don't care about technology, only the Name™
I think "Genesi", or whatever they are called now, realize this sad fact and threw this out there just to make people THINK what the Name™ really means. Sadly it will probably backfire.
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@ Jedi
As the way I see this, Ben Hermans mainly clarifies questions/statements with regard to their product, AmigaOS4.
If this is wise to do so, on a public forum like ANN, I have difficulty forming an opinion. (considering trolling, public insults, etc on ANN) If Mr. Buck would mainly clarify questions/statements with regard to their products, namely MorphOS/Pegasos, I would most certainly applaud this. And this would IMO mean alot of added value to such forums.
Confusion hower should IMO be avoided at all cost.
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just to make people THINK what the Name™ really means
Basically I do understand those people here at Amiga.org who cling that much to The Name. Back in earlier times, when proDAD announced their pOS, I, too, have been against it, against any split, against anything non-Amiga. But history changed my mind - especially and finally Amiga Inc.'s plain, intentional, impertinent lies in 2001.
Therefore I do know that it takes time and hurts to solve oneself from that name. The name one has fought for all those years...
But as I wrote before - and while I've been typing someone else already in more detail - Genesi actually HAS products! bplan designed and built a new motherboard. They and the whole MorphOS-Team built a PowerPC-OS continueing the AmigaOS (not in source-code but in compatibility, look & feel and spirit). And finally Thendic (not Amiga Inc.) attended many important Amiga shows, let the people play around with their products to make their own opinion about it, they supported ambitioned developers, creatives and groups with products, they CARED about the community as "Papa Petro" did in the old days. Thendic cooperates with Petro Tyschtschenko's Power Trading, have Allan Havemose on board doing the Java-VM for them, and, and, and...
To make it short: Genesi is where the action is. They develop, they design, they deliver. (Not just vapor and plain lies in interviews...)
So, as others said before: Check what YOU did this year for the AMIGA (which is way more than a trademark, given like a prostitute from one to the other) and the community, and THEN judge again over Genesi & friends!
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Before to judge something, wait and see. And speak only about what you really know. For that, try to come to Meetings & Shows where Pegasos/MorphOS are demonstrated, especially the next Aachen in Germany
It might be that the pegasos/morphos solution is a very nice package, and that the hardware is cheap and so on. But the fact is still that its not an amiga!!!
Its an OS which is compatible with amigaOS. It may outrange Aos 4.0 for all that I know but its still not the real thing.
It seems to me that there have been alot of hard feelings between morphos/pegasos and amiga inc from the start. Maybe one should just accept the loss and try to marked the morphos as an independant os
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@Mike:
If Mr. Buck would mainly clarify questions/statements with regard to their products, namely MorphOS/Pegasos, I would most certainly applaud this. And this would IMO mean alot of added value to such forums. Confusion hower should IMO be avoided at all cost.
Exactly. And so he did. Others made fuss about it. And the last answer he gave has been that §4.2 would prove him right. Since then there's "radio silence" from Amiga Inc. ...
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@MikeB
"As the way I see this, Ben Hermans mainly clarifies questions/statements with regard to their product, AmigaOS4."
Certainly not.
I would like to suggest you to read again the hundreds posts of Ben Hermans on forums (ANN the first), but I don't want that you lose your time ;-)
Seriously, Ben Hermans is certainly the first "project leader" inside the Community who posts on forums whatever the subjects, concerning AmigaOS4 or not, confidential or not, respectuous of the contracts/NDA or not.
Sometimes, its posts are professional and interesting, sometimes not.
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@Desler:
It may outrange Aos 4.0 for all that I know but its still not the real thing.
But the only difference (except being available now) is that the one team had the source code as reference and the others public documentation about AmigaOS's behaviour - and the result then is the same: two OS's that are compatible to 68k-AmigaOS and keep it's look & feel.
So really the only thing between them that's important to you is the name? Maybe, I don't know, your imagination of MorphOS is still that of a totally alien OS like Linux or MacOS? If so, please take the opportunity to just play around with it at some Amiga show - you'll see, if someone would have told you it'd be AmigaOS4, you would have believed it immediately.
Maybe one should just accept the loss and try to marked the morphos as an independant os
As it's done. But Amiga Inc. doesn't own us, the community - they just acquired the trademark. So it's absolutely legitimate for other companies to advertise towards us for buying or even developing for their products. As others - including Gateway, QNX, Be Inc. or the current Amiga Inc. with their totally unrelated Tao stuff - did before...
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@Desler
"It might be that the pegasos/morphos solution is a very nice package, and that the hardware is cheap and so on. But the fact is still that its not an amiga!!!
Its an OS which is compatible with amigaOS. It may outrange Aos 4.0 for all that I know but its still not the real thing.
It seems to me that there have been alot of hard feelings between morphos/pegasos and amiga inc from the start. Maybe one should just accept the loss and try to marked the morphos as an independant os"
That's your personnal point of view ;-)
For me, Pegasos/MorphOS is really a new, powerfull, "Amiga" with a new, modern, "AmigaOS". Ok, that's my personnal point of view. You can agree it or not.
And everybody can consider MorphOS like an independant OS, that does'nt shock/disturb me ;-)
When we love something, and when we believe in something, the name is totally indifferent and not important. I prefer to consider the machine, the results and the perspectives instead of some letters of a simple name.
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Well, why can't Mr. McEwen - after already posting a comment on ANN - also comment if bbrv's claim regarding §4.2 is true or not?
Because it is under NDA? :-o
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(except being available now)
*sigh* It is NOT available. A public beta is NOT the final product. Even when 1.0 is final it still contains only an emulation box and very few parts of the actual Morphos, the qbox.
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For me, Pegasos/MorphOS is really a new, powerfull, "Amiga" with a new, modern, "AmigaOS". Ok, that's my personnal point of view. You can agree it or not.
Neither can it be named AmigaOS nor does it contain parts of AmigaOS. At best it is an Amiga-like OS (well, it should be since it emulates an Amiga environment).
Edit: I consider it to be closer to Amithlon; and that is imo no Amiga either.
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Hello,
Just by curiousity, i'd really want to know what is an "Amiga" for you?
Thanks in advance for your answers
Regards
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@Ketzer:
Nitpicking. The OS is there, available for Joe Public. And the Q-Box stuff is equivalent to OS5, OS4 to the A-Box.
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Neither can it be named AmigaOS nor does it contain parts of AmigaOS.
Sigh. So you really just want the name... Okay, your opinion, but in my opinion not rational.
The A-Box is as much "amithlon" as OS4 is. And if you'd want, you could use parts of AmigaOS with it, it's just neither delivered with them nor are they needed.
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OS 4.0 does not use the "box technology" which can be found in Amithlon and MorphOS.
This has several technical advantages.
Please visit the Petunia website for additional technical information.
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you'll see, if someone would have told you it'd be AmigaOS4, you would have believed it immediately.
Its not my point. As I stated before morphOS can be a great product, possibly even the best OS in the whole galaxy... ever. But it STILL doesnt change the fact that its not the amigaOS. The amigaOS are being built by Hyperion under license from amiga inc. Its an amiga because they OWN the name. Its their name, its their decisions.
But Amiga Inc. doesn't own us, the community - they just acquired the trademark. So it's absolutely legitimate for other companies to advertise towards us for buying or even developing for their products. As others - including Gateway, QNX, Be Inc. or the current Amiga Inc. with their totally unrelated Tao stuff - did before...
Quite right... But then advertise the morphos just as it is: morphOS.. Not a better version of amigaOS. If its a good enough product and there is enough developed for that platform, people will choose that platform.
Please dont misunderstand this. I have never tried neither Aos 4.0 nor morphOS. Its not my point to say one is better than the other. My point is that this is two seperate products and it annoys me when people tries to blur the destinction between the two
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@Ben hermans
Yes but as you stated yourself in a not so far past, OS 4 will have a similar sandbox design in the future because it'd be needed for implementing the memory protection without breaking compatibility with lot of leagcy AmigaOS 3.x software.
MorphOS have this design already. And IMHO i'm not sure you'll have so much benefit to not use it for the first version of OS 4. I still wondering why you choose a design you claim to be better when you'll need to change it in the future anyway??? For me it's far from being rational.
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"Neither can it be named AmigaOS nor does it contain parts of AmigaOS. At best it is an Amiga-like OS (well, it should be since it emulates an Amiga environment)."
@Ketzer
That's your personnal point of view.
And, have you already used/tested in live Pegasos/MorphOS ? I'm sure not.
"well, it should be since it emulates an Amiga environment" : that's not exact. MorphOS emulates only 68k and custom chips, but not other (i.e. PPC native and system apps).
And that will be EXACTLY the same with AmigaOS4. AmigaOS4 will emulate ALL the 68k (no 680x0 chip on AmigaOne) and custom chips (no AGA chip on AmigaOne) applications. So, by following your argument : "AmigaOne, at best it is an Amiga-like OS (well, it should be since it emulates an Amiga environment)."...
;-)
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@Jedi
A little correction to what you said: MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 don't emulate the custom chips. They use them if they are present (so when running on a A1200, A4000 or A3000 with a PPC card).
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If AmigaOS5 is supposed to be a magical merger of the OS4 and DE, why couldn't MorphOS and DE? Well, we do not really think this is a particularly useful direction, BUT we are willing to fund the development of this IF there is someone out there that can actually do it. Please send us an email.
This is a good example of blurring the destinctions. I have nothing but respect for the amount of work/money BB, his wife and the rest of the Genisis (is it spelled correct? new name - slow brain :-)) group have put into their project, but I have problems with their ways of promoting it
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@Ben Hermans
"Please visit the Petunia website for additional technical information."
Petunia, the AmigaOS 68k emulator for AmigaOne ? lol.
Who said that an emulateur, or a "box", will never be an AmigaOS ?...
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MorphOS have this design already. And IMHO i'm not sure you'll have so much benefit to not use it for the first version of OS 4. I still wondering why you choose a design you claim to be better when you'll need to change it in the future anyway??? For me it's far from being rational.
You know, for me it really doesn't matter alot about this. What I want is PPC native apps for OS4 more than old apps that I can run under emu. At some point, it makes sense for this to not even be in the OS. So ten years from now are you still going to be carrying around old code for AmigaOS 3.X compatability? The big difference here is that Thendic/bPlan are trying to capture the Amiga community to run only up to OS3.x code. Anything beyond 3.x is not going to run on Morphos. That's not to say that they wont have anything to run on the native PPC side. The only thing people can do is to look at the PPC native stuff for both Morphos and OS4 and see which one suits their tastes more. The two will always be separate and incompatible products. But for me, I will choose the official OS version.
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*sigh*
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@JoeAFUA
"A little correction to what you said: MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 don't emulate the custom chips. They use them if they are present (so when running on a A1200, A4000 or A3000 with a PPC card)."
Of course. I spoke on Pegasos and AmigaOne ;-)
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And that will be EXACTLY the same with AmigaOS4. AmigaOS4 will emulate ALL the 68k (no 680x0 chip on AmigaOne) and custom chips (no AGA chip on AmigaOne) applications. So, by following your argument : "AmigaOne, at best it is an Amiga-like OS (well, it should be since it emulates an Amiga environment)."...
Also, it will not emulate the whole 68k OS. Much of the ORIGINAL AMIGA OS is re-written in PPC native code. That is what makes this The Official One.
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@ JoeAFUA
Just by curiousity, i'd really want to know what is an "Amiga" for you?
To me the name "Amiga" is an exclusive brand/company name, similar to IBM, Atari, Sony or Philips.
A next generation Amiga computer I would see as a fully licensed computer running an official port of AmigaOS. The custom chips are IMO not necessary, but compatibility with them would be a great addition.
Let me explain my point of view with an example: In 1994 my Amiga was equiped with a cool 4MB Retina BLT Z3 graphic board (1900×1426 8bit 70 Hz or 1024×768 24bit) and 16-bit Toccata soundcard (48KHz).
So the Amiga market was already moving towards 3rd party developed hardware solutions back then. Fellow Amiga users who only owned standard unexpanded Amigas drooled all over my machine, so I believe more people would have expanded their Amigas with 3rd party hardware solutions, if they could afford this at the time.
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@jedi
Yes but as I said, if the chips are not present software that need them (AGA games or any software that use one of the AGA chips) simply don't run on a Pegasos or an AmigaOne. (Of course except if you use UAE).
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@Herewegoagain
"Also, it will not emulate the whole 68k OS. Much of the ORIGINAL AMIGA OS is re-written in PPC native code. That is what makes this The Official One."
True.
But, for the moment AmigaOS4 is not here. And for the moment, when I use MorphOS on Pegasos it's like I use an AmigaOS on an Amiga, but better and more powerfull. Majority of the Amiga Classic applications runs (very fast) on MorphOS. That's give me, NOW, what we have waited for many years : a modern "AmigaOS" on a modern "Amiga". Of course, without the name. But is the name important when we have all we want ?...
(@JoeAFUA: of course ;-))
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To resume : for me, it's more important to see, and to get, (great) results (with great perspectives) than an official name. (And that's also more intelligent).
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Hello,
"Also, it will not emulate the whole 68k OS. Much of the ORIGINAL AMIGA OS is re-written in PPC native code. That is what makes this The Official One."
FYI the MorphOS' A-Box also implement complete fully PPC Native rewrite from scratch of the AmigaOS APIs.
Regards
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@ jedi
I am happy for you, that you are happy with MorphOS and your Pegasos.
What I have seen so far for myself is simply far too unstable for my liking, although the interface is quite nice when it doesn't crash. I hope that Genesi will suprize me at the Aachen show.
As with regard to my personal preference to the AmigaOS4 project currently, this based on the sum of all the things I know so far. The public feature list and interviews done with the AmigaOS4 team gives me alot more insight into their project. Also they have tried to personally answer every single one of my questions.
With regard to my AmigaOne preference, this is based on several facts. Most importantly the hardware is AmigaOS4 licensed already, secondly it offers me a G4 solution already, and finally it offers me an additional 66 Mhz PCI slot in comparison to a Pegasos (Although the Pegasos IS excellent hardware, I agree!).
IMO everyone should just buy whatever makes them happy, and respect the choice of others. :-D
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@MikeB
> I happy for you, that you are happy with MorphOS and your Pegasos.
I wish you the same with AmigaOS4 and AmigaOne ;-)
> What I have seen so far for myself is simply far too unstable, although the iterface is quite nice when it doesn't crash. I hope that Genesi will suprize me at the Aachen show.
I would like say the same for AmigaOS4 on AmigaOne. That would say that AmigaOS4 is already available. But for the moment, nobody has seen AmigaOS4 running on AmigaOne, with Workbench and everything, neither on Amiga Classic PPC...
And you can be sure, when it will be available on AmigaOne, that AmigaOS4 will also crash and will be unstable ! And that's normal at the beginning ;-)
For your information, MorphOS is more and more stable day after day, and crashes very less. In fact, it's more the applications (badly coded) which crash MorphOS than MorphOS crashes itself ;-)
> As with regard to my personal preference to the AmigaOS4 project currently, this based on the sum of all the things I know so far. The public feature list and interviews done by the AmigaOS4 team gives me alot more insight into their project. Also they have tried to personally answer every single one of my questions.
Ok, but that's not concrete. What is the reality ?...
Personnaly, I prefer judge with concrete and results, in reality, than "public feature list and interviews" only on paper (for the moment)...
That the big difference : a lot of people have already seen and used/tested MorphOS running on Pegasos (at home, in Shows, in Meetings,...), but who for AmigaOS4 on AmigaOne (except the Hyperion team and a boot Firmware) ?...
> With regard to my AmigaOne preference, this is based on several facts. Most importantly it is AmigaOS4 licensed hardware already, secondly it offers me a G4 solution already, and finally it offers me an additional 66 Mhz PCI slot in comparison to a Pegasos (Although the Pegasos IS excellent hardware, I agree!).
Are you sure that AmigaOne offers you a G4 solution already ?... ;-)
> IMO everyone should just buy whatever makes them happy, and respect the choice of others.
Exactly :-)
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i truly hope this is a fuc*ing bad hoax..... If this is true, its the end of Amiga :-x
Thendic sure are some damn as*holes
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I wish you the same with AmigaOS4 and AmigaOne
Thanks, maybe one day if there would exist a fully AmigaOS4 licensed version of the Pegaos, I will buy this as well for comparison articles.
I would like say the same for AmigaOS4 on AmigaOne. That would say that AmigaOS4 is already available.
What I have stated before, is that most important to me is that they offer me a good quality product. If this takes more time, then so be it.
As from my AmigaOS fan perspective, I want a real AmigaOS4 port with all those mentioned features and components. With regard to the MorphOS/ABox solution , my personal perspective is that I already own Amithlon. Amithlon in combination with new 68k versions of AmigaOS4 components does sound good to me as well. Although it is unsure we would actually see this happening some day, while those components *are* reportably already running very stable with Amithlon. Still I strongly prefer an official, modern and native AmigaOS port for modern hardware.
For your information, MorphOS is more and more stable day after day, and crashes very less.
I am looking forward to testing this myself at the upcoming Aachen show then. :-)
but who for AmigaOS4 on AmigaOne (except the Hyperion team and a boot Firmware).
Hyperion have demonstrated that the AmigaOS kernel, ExecSG, is operating with full functionality on AmigaOne hardware already. Also many AmigaOS4 components have already been demonstrated at various Amiga shows.
Are you sure that AmigaOne offers you a G4 solution already ?...
Yes, you can get more info on this offer here (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/oct252002a.php). The boards will be delivered before christmas if people order them now.
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Poster: MikeB Date: 2002/11/25 4:45:27
@ Senex
Interesting opinion you have there, I would have said exactly the opposite. To bring all this confusion onto the public, is the worst you could IMO do for the sake of the Amiga community.
There are tons of examples where leading figures have fought issues publicly, with the witness of the general public. IMO this has greatly degraded and damaged the general image of the entire Amiga community.
For example, revealing Fleecy's confidential email meant solely for Bill Buck personally in the past, was very bad IMO. Just like Mr Buck now wants to discuss NDAed material on public forums.
Personally, I don't want to see Amiga employees fighting a "Did so" / "Did not" game on public forums.
Come on Mike, let's stop being so negative on this. It's high time we come together as a community. It's certainly nice to see the major split/forks starting to merge back in together, lets not spoil it, shall we?
Dammy
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Nitpicking. The OS is there, available for Joe Public. And the Q-Box stuff is equivalent to OS5, OS4 to the A-Box.
ehm, for Joe Public ? why are they called Betatester
packages and aimed at developers and experienced
geeks ?
Why did the Mos 1.0 cd contain just an ISO of mos
and no docs ? Where are the docs ?
I would say Mos is still 5-6 months away before its
available to Joe Public.
So every mos-follower saying its here, you can use it
now, is just lying to get the sales numbers up...
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I will weigh in with my two cents.
Over time I have heard the 'amiga name vs. amiga community argument' and I am unpursuaded. Only Amiga, Inc. can produce an 'Amiga'.
Words have meaning. But still, I have heard the argument enough that I will consider Pegasos, so perhaps all the purposeful misuse of the english language had its impact.
But the fact remains, having looked at what I can of both, that morphos is still not finalized, OS 4 is not finalized, what appears of both of them, is that OS 4 will be the better product.
MorphOS, and this is the point I want to stress the most, is not AmigaOS compatible, because it missed the MOST IMPORTANT part of being AmigaOS compatible, and that is compatible with AmigaOS PowerPC applications.
Sure the old 68k stuff has some importance, but after PowerPC is standard on all newly bought Amigas...or pegasos boards if you must include them....then the 68k stuff will be old news very fast.
Don't get me wrong, you can't skip the step of being 68k code compatible and call yourself an Amiga, but then you must also be Amiga OS PowerPC compatible too!
You must make the effort to do that! If you don't do that, then I personally will never buy a pegasos, because its too much money to gamble on the very unlikely event that the genesi community will hold more interest to me than the amiga community.
I have checked out the genesi websites, well just the one that I know about, and can easily find...morph-os-news.de....and it is not much of a community with only news occasionally. It is much more interesting to check out news/discussion/happenings in the amiga community.
Lets face it, at amiga.org and ann.lu you can get all the happenings of the amiga community, including this splinter group genesi, but on the only genesi website I know of...you only get a small microcosm of the amiga community, a community already too small, and now much smaller, BLAH
and not to mention, where are the genesi newsgroups, genesi print magazines....
as small as the amiga community has become, the genesi community is only worse....now if someday they do the remarkable, and are truly the more interesting community to be in, then I may switch, why not.
I will give them credit, when credit is due, but now all they have done is release a board that is nearly exactly the same as the AmigaOne board, and an OS, that at best is about as good as OS 4....
please, you are going to have to be better and better for a while....you are the underdog, you have to be BETTER....right now you have done an technically amazing thing, which is come close to being as good as Amiga, inc....which is amazing considering they had all the advantages, but......its just not good enough.
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Hello,
"MorphOS, and this is the point I want to stress the most, is not AmigaOS compatible, because it missed the MOST IMPORTANT part of being AmigaOS compatible, and that is compatible with AmigaOS PowerPC applications.
Sure the old 68k stuff has some importance, but after PowerPC is standard on all newly bought Amigas...or pegasos boards if you must include them....then the 68k stuff will be old news very fast.
Don't get me wrong, you can't skip the step of being 68k code compatible and call yourself an Amiga, but then you must also be Amiga OS PowerPC compatible too!"
For your information, MorphOS is fully compatible with AmigaOS PowerPC applications using PowerUP or WarpUP.
So you can of course run your AmigaOS 68k software but of course also your AmigaOS WarpUP PowerPC software and PowerUP PowerPC software.
And in case you'll ask, you can also run your favorites Warp3D games.
Regards
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@MikeB
> Hyperion have demonstrate that the AmigaOS kernel, ExecSG is fully functional on the AmigaOne already. Also many AmigaOS4 components have already been demonstrated at various Amiga shows.
Thanks, I already know and see all that ;-)
But that's only the beginning, the road will be still so long... and don't believe that the rest will be easier (even with the OS 3.1 source code and the some components ready).
In fact, the problems will begin when Hyperion will be able to start to test really the full AmigaOS4 with all components directly on AmigaOne... ;-)
> Yes, you can get more info on this offer here. The boards will be delivered before christmas if people order them now.
I know also that. But you will see that these AmigaOne XE G4 won't be delivered before Christmas even if people order them now... (for the moment, I think it's more reasonable to order AmigaOne G3 SE. At least, we are sure that AmigaOne G3 SE runs, on LinuxPPC... ;-).
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For your information, MorphOS is fully compatible with AmigaOS PowerPC applications using PowerUP or WarpUP.
Just want to add the following from the latest press release for the game "Tales of Tamar":
"Tales of Tamar is now running on MorphOS for Amiga and Pegasos. It benefits form the WarpUP emulation in MorphOS, which even seems to be faster than the original."
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@catohagen:
Neither you have to be a developer nor an experienced geek to already work with the Betatester-II package.
Furthermore that wasn't the point. The point was that something is available you can see, touch and (imagine!) even buy if you want.
OS4 (for AOne!) will still take ages - who knows what all can happen until then. Who clings to the name only may wait - that's okay, no problem for me. But this fact makes it a very valid reason for many other Amigans to forget about the name and choose what's available now and feels the same.
@HyperionMP:
Doesn't matter, that wasn't the point. We were talking about OS4.0 and MorphOS with the A-Box. And therefore the assumed lack of features the Q-Box itself currently has doesn't matter. The Q-Box should be rather compared to OS5 or the very, very least a much later 4.x-version than 4.0. Therefore the argument aiming at the Q-Box was void.
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@ JoeAFUA
vFor your information, MorphOS is fully compatible with AmigaOS PowerPC applications using PowerUP or WarpUP.
Being PowerUp or WarpOS compatible is not the same as being PPC AmigaOS compatible. It is very unlikely that MorphOS would run native AmigaOS4 applications anytime soon.
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@catohagen
"I would say Mos is still 5-6 months away before its
available to Joe Public."
You, guy, can you say me when AmigaOS4 will be fully available on AmigaOne to Joe Public ?... ;-)
Seriously, Pegasos with MorphOS 1.0 will be available to everybody at the Amiga+Retro Computing 2002 (in December as promised some months ago).
Of course it will be a 1.0 version, and like other OS (Windows, MacOS,...) there will be still some bugs, like AmigaOS4 when it will be available... (or AmigaOS 1.0 in 1985 ;-))
An Operating System on a Computer is NEVER finish...
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@Mike:
As there are no native AmigaOS 4 applications for now yes indeed it's hard to be compatible with them. In fact the "AmigaOS 4" we see in the screenshots isn't compatible with these applications too (which is in fact an AmigaOS 3.x with some components planned for AmigaOS 4) :)
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It is very unlikely that MorphOS would run native AmigaOS4 applications anytime soon.
Who cares? It will still take a long time until OS4 will run on the AmigaOne (and therefore for OS4-only apps). Just because integrating the 68k-emu and all the different components takes much time and reveals many new problems. Just look at the progress the MorphOS-team made - they as well needed very much time for these steps.
And if you'd need such a OS4-application really badly, you could still code an A4-Box for MorphOS. ;-)
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Hello,
"Who cares? It will still take a long time until OS4 will run on the AmigaOne (and therefore for OS4-only apps). Just because integrating the 68k-emu and all the different components takes much time and reveals many new problems. Just look at the progress the MorphOS-team made - they as well needed very much time for these steps."
Yes indeed and I would add: Look at the development time of other OSes like Linux, Windows, MacOS, MacOS X, OpenBeOS...etc
You can see that even when the OS is ready (I mean everything is running together and almost complete, which is even not the case of AmigaOS 4 today), the betatesting period is at least of 6 months and even 1 year.
The public betatesting period of the Jaguar update of OS X (I just talk about complete builds betatesting) have taken one year, and it's just an update for OS X 10.1 which is nothing compared to a complete port that need kernel rewrite and some other parts rewrite like OS 4. The same can be said for every OSes on the market.
So according to what we see in the computing industry as soon as the first complete build will be ready for betatests, Joe Users will still have to wait at least 6 months or 1 year because of the needed betatesting period.
Regards
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As there are no native AmigaOS 4 applications for now yes indeed it's hard to be compatible with them. In fact the "AmigaOS 4" we see in the screenshots isn't compatible with these applications too (which is in fact an AmigaOS 3.x with some components planned for AmigaOS 4) :)
Amiga, Inc....with all the usual disclaimers about this confusing company....shipped OS 3.9.
It supports PowerPC expansion boards, but I think most people consider the first Amiga PowerPC OS, to be OS 4.0.
I don't think it does the MOS camp much good to deride beta software as being buggy, problematic, with uncertain release dates. All these things may be true, but MOS is also still in beta.
It is a solid argument, to only consider shipping software, but if we must do that, then only Amiga, Inc. has a shipping os, that OS being 3.9.
I don't think any of us want to do that, however, as we want to compare PowerPC os's and that by necessity means being forward looking and examining beta software that is not in general release.
I don't really care that the beta testing circle is slightly larger in one camp than the other, the fact is I cannot buy either one...and so, I will have to compare these softwares, both of which are unavailable to me currently.
And as I look at things, MorphOS, which has yet to be released, and therefore is over a year behind in being even OS 3.9 compatible, is not looking like its going to be OS 4.0 compatible anytime soon, maybe in MorphOS 2.0???
Its an important question, though I don't doubt there is inherent difficulty in being compatible with an OS that hasn't been released....nevertheless, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM.
My problem as a consumer, is buying hardware and software that isn't going to be incompatible and leave me out in the cold when I want to run my favorite Amiga OS PowerPC applications.
Maybe someday I will say I want to run my MorphOS applications, but not today, and I'm not convinced by only the tiniest smattering of developers that MorphOS is the way for me....tales of tamar?? who cares....maybe its a good game, but I hardly care, there will be good games for Amiga OS 4 too.
You'll have to do so much better than that....I am glad you are working on it, and if you succeed, again, I will be there with you....but its no time to celebrate, thats for sure.
If I have to predict, you will fail. The various amiga companies have certainly failed themselves enough times, but all of the would be usurpers have done, by and large, even worse.
-
beta software that is not in general release
But will be in - oops, that famous quote - "two more weeks" in Aachen on Dec. 7/8th, while of OS4 currently just the kernel is running on the AmigaOne.
So, again: we were - nitpicking of exact dates aside - just talking about the fact that MOS is ahead of OS4 and that therefore it's a legitimate reasoning for many people to choose from two (except for the name) absolutely comparable products the one hitting the market significantly earlier.
want to run my favorite Amiga OS PowerPC applications
As was said, there won't be - if at all - any OS4-only versions of your favorite applications in the near future. And all the other stuff, including Power-Up and WarpOS PPC software, is running on MorphOS already.
So maybe a better approach would be to have a look at your current favorite applications in detail and see if you could still run them on Pegasos / MorphOS.
For example some programs I have mainly used are Voyager (runs, even a MOS-version is available), Microdot-2 (same here), Miami (runs), MakeCD (runs very well - and faaast), FinalWriter97 (okay, has currently a little refresh prob, but that will certainly be fixed till the consumer release), etc. pp.
To make it short: Since I have my Pegasos, I just continued to use all my favorite software as I've been used to. Just faster. While on the AmigaOne I'd still need Linux-UAE for some time...
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As was said, there won't be - if at all - any OS4-only versions of your favorite applications in the near future. And all the other stuff, including Power-Up and WarpOS PPC software, is running on MorphOS already.
See, this is the kind of thing that just keeps coming from the MOS supporters. You perport to know the very details of when OS4 will be available and even as to what PPC applications are going to be available. Truth is, you don't know either of the two things you just stated as fact. But you figure that by stating so adamantly that it is the truth, you will make people suddenly say "Oh yeah, now I see MorphOS is the way"
So glad that you can predict the future so well. I have no problems with people who want to use MOS, but stop trying to convince the rest of us that it is the next Amiga.... It simply is NOT. I don't care how "Amiga-Ish" it is, or how much in "spirit" it is.
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I don't care how "Amiga-Ish" it is, or how much in "spirit" it is.
In opposite to your opinion about me this is no problem for me - everybody has his very own opinion and that's fine.
I just don't like if people are said to be be no Amigans anymore just because they favour an absolutely amigaish product that just doesn't have "The Name".
And reagarding OS4 release dates: I think it's too obvious that of course I don't know when it will be released. But as I mentioned above my estimation is an educated guess from comparing the time the MorphOS-team needed.
Okay, enough for today, I'm leaving for home.
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Hello,
"You perport to know the very details of when OS4 will be available"
You don't need to know exactly what is going on at Hyperion to see that OS 4 can't be available for March 2003.
It's just a matter of rationality and a bit of software development experience or observations.
As i've already said in a previous post, but you must have not read it, all the other OSes on the planet had a full builds betatesting period of at least 6 months and most of the time it's 1 year.
Full build betatesting means betatesting of completely built OS (also known as final betatests) so this happen AFTER betatesting of each elements by themselves.
As i've already said, OS X 10.2 (codenamed Jaguar) which is only an update for OS X 10.1 (Puma) had an external (so made by external people, and so after the internal betatests) final betatesting period of 1 year (again final betatesting == complete build betatesting). And it's just an update for OS X 10.1, which is nothing in term of work compared to OS 4.
As OS 4 is also an OS and so also a software it'll also need external final betatests.
Don't tell me this has already started, as at the WOA SE no complete build were ready yet and even if there is one now, that would mean we have to wait 6 months or 1 year before the consumer release if we consider they start the external final betatesting know.
And you don't need to be very good in maths to see that today+6months (at least) does not equal to March 2003 :)
As you can see, here I just used real facts from the industry and from the official status of OS 4 at the WOA SE show. I've not used any kind of things that are not real facts.
So here it's not a prediction of the future, it's just using verified facts to make you realize that there is some things in the life that are simply not reasonnably possible. Or maybe OS 4 Team is so good that they can even be better than any other developpers team in the past?
I don't think so :)
Regards
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"See, this is the kind of thing that just keeps coming from the MOS supporters"
Yes AmigaOS supporters only tell truth while MOS one are always lying.
"I have no problems with people who want to use MOS, but stop trying to convince the rest of us that it is the next Amiga.... It simply is NOT. I don't care how "Amiga-Ish" it is, or how much in "spirit" it is. "
LOL Basically you say: Don't try to convince me something because I'am just trying to convince the exactely opposing thing.
However I'am sure you never tried a Pegasos while some of the people that are writing here write from their Pegasos.
Maybe some of us really care how Amiga it is. :-D
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@BBRV
WHAT??????? a contract is under NDA?!?!? My theacher of civil law will burn me alive like a witch if I ever *think* such a thing!!! :-o :-o
a contract is always a PUBLIC DEED, and therefore can be requested/viewed/published by anyone interested in the matter of the contract!
Clauses of NDA for contracts are outlawed by EU laws. Simply they doesn't exists. The reason is: the commons have the right to prevent actions - sanctionned by such contracts - that may cause harm to them or to the public.
So, Ben Hermans can publish it here without any worries about penalties. Usually trials take a very looong time here in europe... :-D :-D
dear BBRV, change marketing tactics, please. If you ever want to sell your pegasos to me, then ship amigaOS on it. Stop.
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Poster: loki77 Date: 2002/11/25 13:51:19
@BBRV
WHAT??????? a contract is under NDA?!?!? My theacher of civil law will burn me alive like a witch if I ever *think* such a thing!!!
a contract is always a PUBLIC DEED, and therefore can be requested/viewed/published by anyone interested in the matter of the contract!
Clauses of NDA for contracts are outlawed by EU laws. Simply they doesn't exists. The reason is: the commons have the right to prevent actions - sanctionned by such contracts - that may cause harm to them or to the public.
So, Ben Hermans can publish it here without any worries about penalties. Usually trials take a very looong time here in europe...
dear BBRV, change marketing tactics, please. If you ever want to sell your pegasos to me, then ship amigaOS on it. Stop.
First of all, I think you owe an apology to those of Wiccan faith for such an unkind reference to their pursecution/genecide by Christians.
Second, aren't NDA's also covered by copyright laws, even in the UE?
Third, got a URL for the EU code or EU case law that supports your anti-NDA statement?
Now cheer up and be happy. :-D
Dammy
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I have no problems with people who want to use MOS, but stop trying to convince the rest of us that it is the next Amiga.... It simply is NOT. I don't care how "Amiga-Ish" it is, or how much in "spirit" it is.
I remember met@box, and their campaigns on comp.sys.amiga.misc to win the mindshare of the amiga community. It was tough going, Gateway was a big serious company and while they never understood the community, people gave them the benefit of the doubt. And met@box was entirely vapor.
Still metabox had Dave Haynie, amiga celebrity, and Dr. Kitel both doing a fairly good job of explaining their position. In the end I think they did not grab the majority of mindshare. Not that it mattered, they never shipped anything and the mindshare issue never came into play.
I supported the company that in one form survived, Amiga, Inc.....and not the one that failed, but looking back on it, I don't think the right company survived. I hardly am amazed at my own cleverness, in hindsight.
But, even still....Amiga, Inc. is moving along, if only at long last. Probably in large part, thanks to pegasos competition....DE is proving to be a viable commercial product, they allowed 3.9 to be released, and finally, the hardware part, is about to ship of the ng amiga.
So they don't suck completely, but I am much more inclined to listen to this upstart than I ever would listen to an upstart before.
And I think we should be thankful that Amiga, Inc. did not work with the pegasos group. Had that partnership developed, I just know that all parties involved would be sitting on their hands waiting for 'perfection' before doing anything.
Its so gutsy for morphos to be released in november. I'm sure its crap, but the significance of
it being released, I think is important. Amiga and Genesi in genuine competition ? I don't know if Amiga plays their cards right, they can blow away MOS like Windows to OS/2...and MOS doesn't even have the luxury of claiming to be technically superior....
but if they don't, I am glad that MOS will be there to fill the void, and you know what, its entirely possible, that a term encompassing Amiga and Amiga compatibles can be coined....oh joy, you know what, I'm going to start thinking of that right now....
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Poster: MarkTime Date: 2002/11/25 15:19:15
I remember met@box, and their campaigns on comp.sys.amiga.misc to win the mindshare of the amiga community. It was tough going, Gateway was a big serious company and while they never understood the community, people gave them the benefit of the doubt. And met@box was entirely vapor.
Still metabox had Dave Haynie, amiga celebrity, and Dr. Kitel both doing a fairly good job of explaining their position. In the end I think they did not grab the majority of mindshare. Not that it mattered, they never shipped anything and the mindshare issue never came into play.
Actually, PIOS/Met@Box did ship Mac CPU cards. The PPC side of Met@Box was spun off to the USA (Texas) funded by Dave Haynie, until the idiots in control back stabbed him. Oh well, that's how the tech companies go flush...
Dammy
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LOL Basically you say: Don't try to convince me something because I'am just trying to convince the exactely opposing thing.
Absolutely not true. I could care less if you want to use MOS or Linux or any other OS. That is a matter of your own taste. But I'm sick of the spam threads from MOS supporters trying to imply that they are the true next Amiga. Simple as that! Go support your MOS, use it, be happy with it. That's perfectly fine with me, just quit trying to get it supported by riding on Amiga's coat tail. Let it stand as a product of it's own merit. It will ultimately succeed or fail by that alone.
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A NDA is a *contract* like any other. Use good sense, please. :)
I just wanted to say that it's forbidden by EU laws to put in a contract any clause that forbid one or both parts to make that contract public. And penalties for violation of such that clauses don't apply, of course. If i ask a copy of that contract to B.H., he can give me it without worrying about Genesi's "retaliations".
(And it's perfectly lawful to publish that contract on the web.)
About case law...EU is not based on common law like your country. Is based on civil law. A case law doesn't rule for future cases, it'is a case judged by the civil law rules.
About urls, i always suppose that google (http://www.google.com) is your friend in any post I make. :)
Hint: search for Treaty of Rome, Treaty of Amsterdam, and any EU country's civil code. :)
Wiccan? what are those? a kind of rascals? :-D :-D :-D
Per gli italiani: la clausola di NDA su contratti e' una *clausola vessatoria*. Tali clausole sono *nulle* per legge. Cfr. codice civile.
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Interesting...
Bbrv, if it turns out that you are really allowed to post the contract (check with your lawer first!), you can post the relevant paragraphs (briefly explaining why they support your claims - we don't all read Lawyerese!) and I'll eat my words about you making "cryptic statements". If it will help make the situation clearer (regardless of who's "right" or "wrong") then I'm all for it.
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The Name™! The Name™!! THEEEE NAAAAAME™!!!!!!!
uuuung! UUUUUUUNGGGG!!!!
You corporate zealots are sad pathetic little creatures!
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The Name™! The Name™!! THEEEE NAAAAAME™!!!!!!!
uuuung! UUUUUUUNGGGG!!!!
You corporate zealots are sad pathetic little creatures!
About as pathetic as you parasitic little creatures, I would assume. Go build yourself a MOS support site, or better still, let your saviour BB&CO do it for you with all their endless cash flow to produce things. I could care less about the name Amiga. They could call it Pedigree for all I care. But it is the one based on official Amiga code, and that's why I choose it. Why do MOS supporters insist upon staying in the Amiga forums?
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He probably has some weird love-hate fetish thing going. He can't stand it (can't even bring himself to type "amiga", it has to be "the name"), yet he is irresistibly drawn towards it...
:-P
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Senex and Jedi speak words of wisdom.
People condemning public discussions of commercial matters should never forget that we've been kept in the dark for years by the successive Amiga managers. I too would prefer that the executives out there settled their differences in a more constructive way; but that's sadly not the case, especially from the current Amiga owners which have been extremely conservative for more than two years.
Agreed, Mr Buck's public interventions sometimes appear like if they were spawn from the mouth of a Vorlon; but as cryptic as they are, I'm simply grateful to him to keep us informed -- something Mr Hermans (Almighty ANN's King of Trolls) has failed to achieve. I certainly don't see any kind of professionalism in his neverending no-no attitude -- but then again, what would you expect from a lawyer?
At least I do keep confidence in the rest of his staff, which I can see really hard at work. AmigaOS 4 development is too advanced to not become reality in a foreseeable future. And since last year, MorphOS has brought new prospects to my Amiga Classic which I would have never found possible.
We're different from our great ape cousins in that we don't necessarily have to 'choose the right side or die' in case of a stupid and tribal conflict (though some of us have already proved me wrong here). If you still have the urge to only swear by The Name, go have a look at the Atari Community and learn a lesson or two...
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@Kaminari:
What *did* happen to the Atari community? (this is not a wind-up, I'm really curious. Seems like they went away at about the same time as Commodore, and I never did find out why).
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www.atari.st (http://www.atari.st)
It's alive and kicking!
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Hmmm - from their "desktop.inf" (news) section:
"Another year has passed and the life of the ST seems to be as strong as ever. While emulation in general has faded from mainstream interest, the dedicated few still release and update new versions of their software."
Seems like they've reached the point we were headed for just a few months ago. Let that be a warning, people - if we blow this (by which I mean AmigaOne/Pegasos/AmigaOS/Morphos), this time next year we could be reading this at the front page of amiga.org:
"Another year has passed and the life of the Amiga seems to be as strong as ever. While emulation in general has faded from mainstream interest, the dedicated few still release and update new versions of their software."
Scary, isn't it? :-o
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Does it hurt so much that MorphOS may be the AmigaOS PPC some people always wanted ?
If it is not your taste (and I guess you had no chance to try it, so it is obvious you are biased just because MorphOS is not called AmigaOS) then don't buy it but do not try to stop the people that are happy to share their MorphOS experience with others.
And about original code, each vesion of Amiga OS lost more and more of the original code.
The PPC port changes the heart of the OS you know.
So you should go back to OS 1.1 and shout out loud as soon as someone is using something newer. ;-)
Both AmigaOS4 and MorphOS ABOX tries to be as close as the original AmigaOS concepts. That's why more and more people like MorphOS :-D
MorphOS is so far the closest AmigaOS system we ever had on recent HW.
Why should we ignore it ? Just because mister herewegoagain do not like that Amiga themselves have not been able to do such a OS as for now ?
Don't misunderstand me I'am not a blind MOS fan. I never said anything negative about OS4.
I will run OS4 as soon as it is available but why should I ignore MorphOS when
- I run MorphOS everyday on my Amiga
- I run all my Amiga apps with it
- It is done by the Amiga people that provided the first 68060, UWSCSI, PPC, RTG and other stuff to the Amiga
Do you cry out loud when someone is using an Amiga emulator is posting here ?
Do you cry out when there is an AROS post here ?
BOTH sides has blind followers but you can not ask the people to shut up when they want to to share their experience.
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Does it hurt so much that MorphOS may be the AmigaOS PPC some people always wanted ?
Doesn't hurt me a bit. It's not AmigaOS PPC and it NEVER WILL BE! Not unless Geneside buys Amiga INC. out and makes it that way.
MorphOS is so far the closest AmigaOS system we ever had on recent HW. Why should we ignore it ?
Because Amiga needs one unified direction to move forward, not half a dozen different variations that are all doing thier own thing.
Just because mister herewegoagain do not like that Amiga themselves have not been able to do such a OS as for now ?
Exactly the kind of comment I would expect from a MOS fanatic.
- I run MorphOS everyday on my Amiga
good for you
- I run all my Amiga apps with it
again, good for you
- It is done by the Amiga people that provided the first 68060, UWSCSI, PPC, RTG and other stuff to the Amiga
Doesn't matter, it's irrelavent.
BOTH sides has blind followers but you can not ask the people to shut up when they want to to share their experience.
Making posts of "News Items" that make it sound like you have control over Amiga's IP is not sharing an experience. It is complete and deliberate stirring of trouble. It the creation of FUD. We all know the reason this was done, and why it was done at this time. Don't try to pretend you cannot see how wrong this is. It's this very kind of tactic that makes me sure I will NEVER purchase anything from BB & RS. Rest assured!
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Because Amiga needs one unified direction to move forward, not half a dozen different variations that are all doing thier own thing.
As I said already, in previous times I thought the same. pOS? No, no split! Etc. Hey, even when they wanted to create a MorphOS-Newsgroup, I voted - as still is documented - AGAINST it. Just no further splitting...!
But much time has passed. Products came from Genesi, lies from Amiga Inc. And especially incompetence in that very one important function the respective owner of the Amiga trademark has to fulfill: leadership. The ability to lead the projects, the development and the users of the Amiga market.
So in my opinion Amiga Inc. lost any right to claim their way as the only one.
Okay, finally - veeery late - they reconsidered regarding the option of a PPC-AmigaOS (instead of DE only), and again much time later they gave the project into the hands of people who seem to be able to finally create an OS4.
BUT, and that is the second point, in the meantime - while of OS4 currently just the kernel is running on the AmigaOne -, there already is a product purchaseable that could, from the look&feel etc., as well be called "AmigaOS4".
Therefore - all the lost time in all the years since Commodore's bankruptcy and AI's many changes in direction in the past, etc. - and because we all do know how much could happen suddenly until OS4 really would be released (Who doubted Gateway would bring us a new, modern AmigaOS, for example?), some people, like me, prefer today, in 2002, to choose that option that's actually here and represents all we ever wanted.
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"Exactly the kind of comment I would expect from a MOS fanatic."
Truth hurts ;) I'am so MOS fanatic that I'am gona get OS4 as soon as it is released.
Oh and I never criticized OS4 in any way, I just criticized that the release date were obviously wrong (and that was a long time ago).
"Making posts of "News Items" that make it sound like you have control over Amiga's IP is not sharing an experience. It is complete and deliberate stirring of trouble. "
well first I thought you were complaining about users posting here in general, not this particular post.
So who made this post ? Did it come from Thendic themselve ?
It was posted by a user as this information was given by Bill Buck in a previous thread comment.
It was not posted b Bill buck as a new item.
It is not really news as such agreement was done way back and discussed on Amiganews.de
Now it looks that the partners that became competitiors do not agree anymore on the terms of the contract. :-?
I puchased a lot of things from RS and if I did not I would not have been an amigan anymore since 1994.
I guess that I'am not the only one ...
BTW I still use these products every day and I'am pleased with them. :-D
Soon I will have a Pegasos :-D
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Thanks to all the sound minds on this thread.
MorphOS, AmigaOS4 or DE...it is an individual choice.
Pegasos, A1, or whatever...!
Have fun using your computer.
Sincerely,
R&B :-) !