Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: Lo on December 04, 2002, 11:48:27 PM
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Now This (http://teamamiga.owlnet.net/) is a strong reaction! :-o
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No kidding! I happen to agree with it, too! :-)
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Hey, mountainmyst! You reading this? Couls we press yo for a comment?
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Wow Team Amiga only had to shrink down to 17 or so people, to be small enough to make a decision about something.
oh well, we'll probably hear the retraction in a day or two, probably someone acted on their own, or at least we'll hear back from the (undoubtedly) 8 members who voted against the resolution and will break off from Team Amiga now and write a blistering dissent web page
Oh gosh, I wish Team Amiga wasn't a joke, I really do.....for gosh sakes, someone at least post the rant in german.
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WOW!
Hows that for saying whats on your mind. I do tend to agree with a lot of what they are saying. I don't buy bootleged software. There needs to be strong support for developers, so we can get good and stable software.
I would like to see Bernie get some loot for his work. Man that burns me, that he's getting ripped off. Reminds me of one of my heroes, Preston Tucker. He built one of the most forward thinking and safest cars ever! And the big car companies shut him down with legal garbage.
Maybe the little guy can have a chance?
Spiffy
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WOW!!!
Isn't that amazing?
It's the same thing I've been saying for a week now.
Only I'm a retard.
Remember?
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All I can say is that there would be some real
noise if that was an Israeli flag they were
crushing.
:-)
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(http://teamamiga.owlnet.net/MiggyPower.gif)
Is that a german flag... Why is the german being crushed? I think its supposed to represet that certain copmany in a certain country but doesnt this say all germans?
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Don't mean to hose the party up, but using the German flag as a hint
for who they are pointing to is kind of wrong. I'm sure there are
Germans who believe that H&P are stealing Amiga/Bernie's IP. Yet,
they even they might be offended by such an image that implies that
Germans are pirates.
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They are just showing where the recent attacks are coming from.
Not Germans, but certain German based companies.
It does not speak against the Germans at all, although if one did not think about it well, I reckon it could be taken as that.
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I agree, and that's the reason why I immediately
disregarded their message.
H&P in particular may be in some hot water right
now, but I can't help but notice all those German
names in the last few OS releases, not to mention
all the fancy accelerators and video boards...maybe
Team Amiga has some of their own hardware designs
on the back burner? Or a better OS maybe?
I still agree with some of the issues being raised,
but I think it is unfair to make Amiga dealers bear
the brunt. They have paid for the product already;
it's not their fault. Maybe Team Amiga should buy the
remaining copies and donate the proceeds.
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erhm, well I don't know that not mentioning Haage&Partner is really going to keep Team Amiga from legal complications, when in their own rant they state that everyone knows who they mean. That being the case, there isn't much room for plausible deniability here....'I meant someone else'.
And the other thing, boycotts are sometimes a tricky thing, legally, but they are done sometimes and they aren't necessarily illegal, but they went beyond calling for a boycott to disrupting people's business in other ways.
But, while thats fun to talk about, I don't think they will be in any legal trouble, on account of someone can't sue to recover damages unless they are actually damaged in some way, which hasn't happened, and finally, even if that did happen, there is still the question of whether its worth it considering international boundaries and the fact that team amiga has no money....so I digress...
yes the insult to germans, who make the largest part of the amiga community, means that this letter (as I mentioned not even written in german anyway) is largely ineffective, and perhaps it even moves people the other way, in greater sympathy with H&P.
FInally, BREATHE....finally, the biggest offense, is its just plain dorky.....the 'miggy pyramid'???...this 'community' is beginning to remind me of a Dungeon's and Dragon's tournament, or maybe one of those re-enactment renaissance societies...(i.e. dorkville)
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> I agree, and that's the reason why I immediately
> disregarded their message.
> H&P in particular may be in some hot water right
> now, but I can't help but notice all those German
> names in the last few OS releases, not to mention
> all the fancy accelerators and video
> boards...maybe
> Team Amiga has some of their own hardware
> designs
> on the back burner? Or a better OS maybe?
Everyone knows why the German flag is there, to be offended by it is ridiculous.
> I still agree with some of the issues being raised,
> but I think it is unfair to make Amiga dealers bear
> the brunt. They have paid for the product already;
> it's not their fault.
The product has been publicly illegal for six months now. They've had more than enough time to get rid of old stock. Legally, they shouldn't even have had that. try selling Windows illegally for six months and see if anyone cares how "fair" it is that you got stuck with illegal products.
it's "Illegal", you don't get to sell "Illegal" goods just because you think it's "fair", it's still a crime. The distributers need to take this up with whomever is supplying *them* with the illegal products. Period. if the Vendor doesn't reinburse the distributer, the distributer should seriously think about discontinuing their business relationship with that vendor. To handle this in any other way, is not only wrong, but illegal, this is the ONLY way.
People are just going to have to accept it, be LEGAL or we'll shop elsewhere. Imagine that.
> Maybe Team Amiga should buy the
> remaining copies and donate the proceeds.
Team Amiga isn't the villian, for just once do you think you people could direct your contempt towards the +people causing the problems* for a change?
Only H&P and a handfull of retailers are responsible for the illegal sales now taking place. Let those commiting the crime be held liable for eating the cost of the illegal merchandise.
Amiga will never get anywhere untill the garbage has been cleaned out of the backyard. This is a step in the right direction.
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Heh.
Tell them again T_Bone.
:-D
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Yeah, the miggy pyramid is totally gay...
Look T_Bone, I don't have to 'join up' with
Team Amiga OR H&P in order to have an opinion
on this. I think their both lame in this
situation. H&P delivers their usual corporate
BS, and Team Amiga is drawing insulting animations.
It's silly to use the flag of an entire country to
represent ONE company in that country. That's like
using the US flag as the definitive symbol for the
Ford Escort or Bill Clinton.
Personally, I think it sucks that Mr.Meyer is losing
out on this one, and I really hope he gets his money
out of it. But boycotting Software Hut isn't going to
solve the problem, IMO.
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-D- wrote:
Yeah, the miggy pyramid is totally gay...
So is having your livlihood destroyed by thieves who decide to sell your product ignoring the owners copyright.
So is being a user watching as developer after developer stop publishing/pull their products and walk away from the Amiga community because of these criminals.
Jeeze, I really hope the little .gif animation doesn't somehow become the dominant issue here.
:-?
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And just once Mountainmyst, I'd like to see you
respond to some specific points instead of these
tired generalities.
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No, I do NOT support thieves, and of course I don't
think that pirating helps the emaciated Amiga
community. I will not personally buy any H&P products,
al least until this mess is sorted. However, I will
continue to use OS3.9. I notice nobody is advocating
sending those discs back.
Bottom line, I will not support H&P at this time,
but I also disagree with some of Team Amiga's points,
and I think their animation is weak minded. Is that
acceptable? I really don't care, issues are never
cut and dry with me.
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@T_bone
The product has been publicly illegal for six months now. They've had more than enough time to get rid of old stock. Legally, they shouldn't even have had that. try selling Windows illegally for six months and see if anyone cares how "fair" it is that you got stuck with illegal products.
6 months? I know vendors who have illegally sold Windows for several years! They set up at trade shows around the area all the time. The special "behind the counter" white-manual OEM only Windows XP. Only $50. And people buy it. Why? It's just as illegal as downloading it off eDonkey.... Why do they waste the $50 to still be illegal? I ask them. Their eyes glaze over, and they mumble that they *BOUGHT* this, so somehow it's more legal. There's no accounting for people's tastes. Anyhow, I digress....
The fact of the matter (as I see it) is that Amiga DEALERS don't deserve to be boycotted out of this. Boycott the product, boycott H&P, if you like, but the fact of the matter is this: the Amiga DEALERS have purchased this product under the pretense from H&P that it is fully-legal. H&P still claim that this product they are selling is legal. If vendors couldn't sell any products which have had their legality called into question, we wouldn't have much for sale in ANY business, let alone computing! The dealers are only letting the consumers decide on a product by product basis what they think. Deciding on a dealer by dealer basis is foolish.
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> Look T-Bone, I don't have to 'join up' with
> Team Amiga OR H&P in order to have an opinion
> on this.
I'm not a member of either one, either.
> I think their both lame in this
> situation. H&P delivers their usual corporate
> BS, and Team Amiga is drawing insulting
> animations.
You're insulted that the German flag was used? Do you believe they meant "Germans" or "H&P" by doing that? I thought it was rather obvious myself. Maybe they could be talked into removing it, it seems to be distracting people apparently.
> It's silly to use the flag of an entire country to
> represent ONE company in that country.
However they did say they were obfuscating the company, didn't they? I thought two flags next to each other clearly portrayed the idea "german pirates" especially when they said they wern't mentioning the company.
> That's like using the US flag as the definitive
> symbol for the Ford Escort or Bill Clinton.
Maybe, but it's a strawman issue you're building. I think the issue they were addressing is more important than the 64k .gif you're complaining about. Hell they can remove the .gif for all I care.
> Personally, I think it sucks that Mr.Meyer is losing
> out on this one, and I really hope he gets his money
> out of it. But boycotting Software Hut isn't going to
> solve the problem, IMO.
Is Software Hut selling illegal merchandise? If so, how does encouraging people to not contribute to fraud not helping?
Sure you have a right to your opinon, but frankly I think defending illegal acts that are destroying products and developers, not theoretically, but quite visibly, is just plain destructive in and of itself.
Why should Software Hut be exempted from the same laws that any other software retailer must abide by? I can make a case against it, but can you make a case for it?
I don't understand how "Don't buy from merchants that sell illegal merchandise" has become a controvercial subject, it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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> The fact of the matter (as I see it) is that Amiga
> DEALERS don't deserve to be boycotted out of
> this.
I agree, therefore I hope they send them back to H&P for a refund. Legally they have that right. H&P would either have to comply, or risk retailers ending their business relationships with them.
(which btw would'nt be a bad idea anyhow)
> Boycott the product, boycott H&P, if you like, but
> the fact of the matter is this: the Amiga DEALERS
> have purchased this product under the pretense
> from H&P that it is fully-legal.
Well, that was a risk they took by dealing with a disreputable company. they'll have to take that up with H&P. Maybe if H&P are supplying them with illegal merchandise, the retailer should take the hint and stop dealing with H&P?
Frankly, If I were the retailer, I would have stopped ordering from H&P the minute the legality was questioned by the software's author. (as most have)
> H&P still claim that this product they are selling is
> legal. If vendors couldn't sell any products which
> have had their legality called into question, we
> wouldn't have much for sale in ANY business, let
> alone computing!
Why? Are you thinking of some other software that's being distributed against the public advise of the author that it's illegal? I can't think of any, honestly.
> The dealers are only letting the consumers decide
> on a product by product basis what they think.
it's a shame those nasty laws get in the way sometimes, but it's still illegal. Consumers are only letting the dealers decide what they think, when they say they won't purchase from someone dealing in illegal merchandise, too.
> Deciding on a dealer by dealer basis is foolish.
I agree, no specific dealer should be targeted, only dealers selling illegal merchandise.
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Look dude, you're the one that keeps re-hashing
my flag comments, not me.
The flag bit isn't distracting me one bit, I just
think it's stupid. My mind on this issue was already
made up well before Team Amiga released their
'official statement'.
And yes, since you've brought it up again, it is
lame to use a countries flag to represent one of
it's less integrous elements. I don't care what the
excuse is. Maybe we should throw our own flag behind
the next news commentary on skinheads or corporate
fraud? That'll let everyone know EXACTLY what we're
all about.
I have already said that I won't buy any H&P products
for now, so what else do you want? I'm sorry, but I
think that's enough considering the fact that I haven't
seen any documents, signatures, or any other legal
framework. Nor do I know what agreements Amiga dealers
may have been subjected to/signed when they began
reselling Amithlon. I would need to know these facts
before mindlessly boycotting anything.
Once again, to sum up: I'm not advocating piracy, and
since I suspect at this time that H&P may be in the
wrong, I will not buy from them, I hope that Mr.Meyer
takes whatever legal resource is at his disposal, since
H&P has been blatantly selling his illegal software for
the past 6 months.
On a different issue entirely, I think Team Amiga's
statements and arguments are weak, although I respect
their effort.
Anymore questions on my position regarding the
flag? :-)
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BTW: My decision to not by from H&P is purely
philosophical, since H&P are still legal sellers
until proven otherwise in a court. It would be
a bit overboard to boycot resellers who still have
legal contracts to do so...that is, unless you know
of any Amiga dealers that have been notified by a
legal establishment.
That's why I think the argument to let the people
choose based on their individul integrity is sound.
I don't need Team Amiga to make that decision for me,
and I think most people already had their minds made
up days/weeks ago.
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Well, even if we don't completely agree, at
least we can agree that we somewhat agree! :)
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> Anymore questions on my position regarding the
flag?
Lol, sorry, my reply didn't get sent untill you had already relied to my previous reply, and they somewhat staggered themselves :)
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Yeah, in all honesty this thing really does
piss me of. GiantCo's always screw the little
guy in order to secure the selfish corpo
interest. Maybe I overreacted on the flag thing
a bit.
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I just think that there could be some conflict of interest here. Afterall, we all know who owns (or at least DID own) the owlnet.net domain.
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Ilwrath -> I LOVE the avatar!
On with the post->
I consider the use of the German flag to point to one German company
in poor taste in the least, and insulting to an entire country at
worst. The flag should be removed. I'm not condeming TeamAmiga's
statements, just that a wee bit more care should be applied to things
that could reference an entire country. Stuff like that *could* (no
for sure, but could) convince a German who hasn't decided which stand
to take to go the other way. Again, I mean no disrespect to the
artist or to TeamAmiga in this. :pint:
As far as the actual situation with Amithlon, I am at a complete loss.
H&P has done some nice things for me, and have always been prompt and
helpful in any concern I've had. OTH, Bernie not only seems sincere,
but has given too many details for him not to be factual in at least
some of his statements. I also know of someone else who collected the
raw end of the deal between Amiga and H&P. It is just a mess, plain
and simple :-?
Targhan
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I will boycott H&P (BTW boycotts are ALWAYS legal. There is no such animal as an "Illegal" boycott. As long as people are free to choose to buy a product, they will be free to choose to NOT buy that product. Right?)
However, I don't think that boycotting Compuquick or S.Hut is a positive step. Surely if we all successfully boycott H&P products, the problem will take care of itself: The distributers will stop carying them.
Boycotts, like all protests, however, cause damage. Boycotting the last few Amiga distributors seems like too much damage, to me. Buying AMINET SET XXVII from Software Hut does not help to support H&P, but does help support the "good guys".
So, yeah, e-mail the distributors with your concerns, boycott H&P products, but DON'T shoot the bystanders.
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Marky_D_Sahd wrote:
I will boycott H&P (BTW boycotts are ALWAYS legal. There is no such animal as an "Illegal" boycott. As long as people are free to choose to buy a product, they will be free to choose to NOT buy that product. Right?)
However, I don't think that boycotting Compuquick or S.Hut is a positive step. Surely if we all successfully boycott H&P products, the problem will take care of itself: The distributers will stop carying them.
Boycotts, like all protests, however, cause damage. Boycotting the last few Amiga distributors seems like too much damage, to me. Buying AMINET SET XXVII from Software Hut does not help to support H&P, but does help support the "good guys".
So, yeah, e-mail the distributors with your concerns, boycott H&P products, but DON'T shoot the bystanders.
I agree with you! It isn't the vendors fault that they are caught up in the cross fire. All that needs to happen is a complete boycot of H&P products. If you don't agree with a vendor selling Amithlon, fine don't buy it! But there is no reason to boycot the vendor because if it, otherwise you will just put them out of buisness, and that does no good for anyone.
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Just who are "Team AMIGA" anyway?
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I agree; DON'T shoot the bystanders...shoot
some pool instead! :-) Or if your not
feeling well, shoot some salad!:-o
Or "...don't shoot yourself in the foot!"
Or billiards for the UK chaps!
OK, bed time for me now.
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Okay, here goes:
The Flag: Not one to normally defend the Germans (They bombed our Chippie :-D - sorry UK joke), if it was an English or GB flag I'd have felt a bit annoyed. I think most people know who they mean tho.
H&P: IMO, Pirates. I will never buy fom them. I think people should boycott them, tell them why you're boycotting.
Other Vendors: Should NOT be boycotted. Perhaps a message asking if they would send their Amilhlon CD's back to H&P.
Cheers,
J
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What a complete bag-o-shyte. The situation that is.
On trying to give a neutral opinion (which is quite hard), I think it would be wrong to boycott the resellers and dealers that have worked hard, and have remained in the Amiga market for this long. Even Haage & Partner have done some nice stuff - ArtEffect, OS Upgrades etc. - but I think they have well and truly overstepped the mark on this one.
I agree with the others that have gone before me in saying that if anything should be targetted by a boycott then it's H&P's products, which would hopefully send the message that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable.
I don't use Amithlon, but from what I have read and seen it looks like a damn good product, and can only result in more users gaining an Amiga experience and perhaps staying in the community (i.e. growth). BM deserves to be rewarded for his excellent work.
What I find odd is why Bernie can't continue to sell his product? I am not up on law so forgive me here. The issue is over H&P violating Amiga's IP, so wouldn't it be possible for Amiga Inc. to issue a seperate licence to Bernie so that he could continue with his work (Amithlon), and distribute through alternative channels? After all the issue is with H&P selling an illegal version of the product.
So to clarify, why can't Amiga and Bernie get together and cut out the middle man?
As a quick note on the Team AMIGA posting. I must admit that I cringed when I first saw it. Whoever heard of the "miggy pyramid" before? A lot of it reads like a rant and was put together in 5 minutes. It would be a lot better IMO if the author sat down and came up with a well worded and calm statement, currently it makes them look quite unprofessional. When you do cut through the noise though, there are some very valid points there.
As for the flag, I'm not going into that, suffice to say I don't think there is any need as flag or not we all know who they are referring to.
Anyway, that's my take on the situation. I hope something can be worked out for Bernie's and the Amiga Markets sake.
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@Crispy
Can I just chip in and say it's damn good to see that there are still a few level heads here, in amongst all this pointless system-X-is-better-than-system-Y.
Hear hear!
Stimpzilla
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@Stimpzilla
Cheers mate. I mostly lurk in here these days, as I can't be bothered to get involved in all the bickering. Hopefully soon enough we'll all have new toys to play with and none of this will matter. :-)
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@Crispy_Beef
S'Okay. Of course, it could be said that none of this should matter anyway...
Here's to new toys, and may they do what you want of them, pure and simple :pint:
Stimpzilla
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Here's to new toys, and may they do what you want of them, pure and simple :pint:
I'll drink to that... :pint:
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@mountainmyst
It's the same thing I've been saying for a week now
not exactly, you went off on one and mailed all the distributers... team amiga (whoever they are) are simply requesting people not to buy or use amithlon and send hate mail to H&P.
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Going on about the German flag is political correct bollocks..... anyway.. two world wars and one world cup. doo da doo da..
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A reaction to Team OS/2.
Basically it started out as comp.sys.amiga.advocacy cheerleaders and now it is just a stale talking shop.
I couldn't find a better illustration of Team Amigas irrelevancy in these times that this.
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Going on about the German flag is political correct bollocks..... anyway.. two world wars and one world cup. doo da doo da..
Ah yes, here we see a specimin of the British social underclass known as insensitive clueless arse scratching Top Gear reading petrol headed tits-out-fer-lads nationalistic chip on shoulder no score draw lout.
:-x
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@Blade
Ah yes, here we see a specimin of the British social underclass known as insensitive clueless arse scratching Top Gear reading petrol headed tits-out-fer-lads nationalistic chip on shoulder no score draw lout.
Heh thanks man, that means alot to me... ;)
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@Blade
A reaction to Team OS/2.
Yes.
Basically it started out as comp.sys.amiga.advocacy cheerleaders and now it is just a stale talking shop.
Not quite. It was started in Fidonet AMIGA by Rick Lembree, sysop of Harbor Lights BBS.
I'll agree that it's now a stale talking shop.
Rick died some months later and the mantle was taken up by Asha Develder and Gary Peake. When Gary moved to Seattle to start work for Amiga.com he passed the coordinator job on to Skal Loret. AFAIK Gary still owns the owlnet.net domain name.
I couldn't find a better illustration of Team Amigas irrelevancy in these times that this.
Agreed.