Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: Korodny on September 09, 2002, 02:53:05 PM
-
A few weeks ago, the amiga-news.de community collected a bunch of questions related to OS4 and forwarded them to Thomas Frieden, in the hope that he may answer some of them.
Guess what? Not only did he answer all of them, he even answered them in English, for people who don't speak German.
1. ExecSG, 68k-Emulator, WarpUP
Please describe the Memory-Protection implementation and how this works with pre-OS4 software?
Free memory will always be protected against reading or writing. Some critical memory areas, like the base page (address 0) will also be protected, to allow software to find NULL pointer bugs (which is an extremely common form of bugs).
Old software (68k programs that are emulated, and old PPC software) will run in a different MMU setup. This will not protect anything else but the stuff mentioned above, so even if the program behaves badly, it will be allowed to do so.
New software, OTOH, will have to be written in such a way that memory protection will work. Initially, the protection will be minimal (see above), but with later revisions, we're moving to completely isolated address spaces.
Exec SG already provides for this possibility.
How is Virtual Memory implemented? What has been changed in the implementation compared to your original plans?
The original concept was similar to VMM, i.e. a partition mapped into memory, leaving the original memory system untouched. However, the new plan is to include a virtual addressing scheme at the core. This will allow lots of additional features such a different memory allocation schemes, automatic stack elargement etc.
I don't like Virtual Memory, can I disable it?
You can turn of swapping of memory to disk, yes. However, there's actually no need to do that. It seems a lot of people are judging virtual memory by it's implementation in Windows. Windows uses it's swapping feature even though there's physical memory available.
OS4 will not do that. Even if you have swapping turned on, you will not notice it if enough memory is available. However, when you would normally get a requester telling you that you ran out of memory, the pager will kick in and free some memory. That's all. As long as you do not use enormous amounts of memory, the pager will not become active, and no swapping will occur.
Are there up-to-date Benchmarks from Petunia (68k emulator)?
You will have to check that out on the authors website...
Is Petunia completed now (all CPU commands, FPU, MMU emulation)?
FPU emulation is being finalised right now. MMU emulation is not planned and is really of quite limited interest.
Is Petunia already integrated with Exec SG?
No, not yet. The integration of emulation into OS4 is one of the reason why we are going for a virtual addressing scheme.
The emulation integration concept is already designed by an expert in the field and is about to be implemented.
When will there be a new scheduler (as already announced)?
Hmm, I don't think this was announced.
ExecSG uses the same scheduling scheme as the old Exec, that's a prioritized round-robin scheme. It's one of the most efficient schedulers, and most of all, it allows near-realtime behavior. This near-realtime behavior is a critical point in the whole Amiga design: it ensures the responsiveness that we all like about the Amiga. Other schedulers have been available for the Amiga in the past, but while for example 'nice' type scheduling is suited for applications, it isn't suited for drivers.
What we *will* add in future version is real threading: Right now, the only possibility for threads is to use multiple tasks, but this limits the usability (especially since an application consisting of 30 tasks will receive a lot more time compared to an application consisting of just one task).
When will the GCC cross compiler be available for 68k Amigas (as a Linux cross compiler already exists)?
We're currently working on that, with low priority, though. The compiler is also not available publically, because we want to be able to change certain aspects of the ABI on short notice yet.
Will there be "Gurus" again?
Probably.
How much faster will existing PPC applications be under OS4?
We don't have numbers yet but the PPC is already a lot faster when the 68k CPU is turned off. Context-switches will also be substantially faster.
Considering the fact that key components of the OS will be PPC native, we can expect a nice performance gain.
Will games like WipeOut 2097 or Heretic II run under OS4?
We want to have full WarpUp compatibility, so theoretically, they should work. It has to be tested, though.
Hyperion will remaster all of its titles for OS4 for superior performance.
In theory, it should be possible to catch direct access to custom chips registers and emulate the custom chips using UAE code, right?
In theory, yes. However, it's doubtful that this is actually something that would be beneficial. UAE will do a good job emulating old stuff, and with UAE, you'll have full control over the environment, i.e. the CPU used. As most programs that directly access the chipset are unlikely to work reliably in an environment so completely different from old Amigas, I'd say that UAE is by far the better solution.
Will there be somthing like "PuhDerBaer" für OS4?
Uh, WTF is PuhDerBaer?
2. Boot process, File systems, AmigaOne BIOS
Will the annoying "Disk not validated"-Problem be cured with the new implementation of FFS?
No.
Can I press both mouse buttons to enter the early startup menu?
Yes.
What will be in the early startup menu?
It will remain the same for now, maybe some additional options (for selecting the kernel configuration...)
Early startup menu is in no way related to the motherboard BIOS, correct?
Yes.
What about filesystems? Can I connect my Classic Amiga HD to the A1 and access the contents? Will we still have an RDB or will we get that "trendy" MBR?
The disk format will not change. Definitely no MBR.
Will it be possible to boot from external sources?
This might be possible, but is not planned right now.
What will be the boot time?
Similar to what it is now, hopefully faster.
What will be the floppy disk format? Will the AmigaOne be able to read my 880k Amiga disks?
No, that's a limitation of the floppy controller used in the A1. The Amiga has much more control over it's floppy, which is not available in non-custom controllers.
Will OS4 automatically recognise if a floppy disk gets inserted?
As this is not yet implemented, I can't really say. However, floppy support is becoming more and more unimportant right now, so I don't think too much energy will be wasted on such a dead medium.
How will a Classic Amiga boot OS4? A classic Amiga can't boot from a PPC filesystem, how will that problem be solved?
As there's still a 68k on the classic (which can't be removed due to some signals that are still generated in the 68k), the first boot wil always be done using the 68k. There's no reason why the file system structure can't be used from 68k and PPC alike...
3. Supported Hardware, USB, Firewire
What hardware will definately be supported by OS4 (Gfx,Sound,NICs,USB,etc. ...)?
All of the above.
What USB drivers will be available?
Currently, the most important things to cover are keyboards, mice, and HUBs. Other drivers will follow later. Third parties like IoSpirit already have access to our USB stack and will provide for support for devices such as scanners.
What will the USB stack look like? Will it have a GUI?
With a limited GUI.
Will OS4's USB stack be compatible with "Poseidon"?
Doubtful.
What about drivers for printers, scanner, CD-ROM etc.?
This will remain in the hands of third parties for now with the exception of the CD-ROM drivers.
Are you working on a driver for PCI-Firewire?
No. Firewire is low priority. It's scope is rather limited, therefore it's not considered an essential feature. Support will probably follow later, but it's our firm believe that right now, other stuff is far more important (USB, IDE, SCSI).
Do you have access to documentation for the 'All In Wonder' Radeon 7500 and 8500 too?
The chips on these cards are practically the same as on the other variants.
If yes will there be drivers supporting the additional functionality of these cards?
No, at least not initially.
Would there be AHI support for the audio functionality of these cards?
See above.
Will 3D drivers for ATi Radeon 7500 be shipped with OS4.0?
Not initially. The idea is to release OS 4 for the Cyberstorm PPC first where there is no need for such a driver (These boards are AGP only, AFAIK).
Will 3D drivers for ATi Radeon 8500 ship with OS4.0?
This will need to wait for the new version of Warp3D.
Does OS4 run on the Pegasos?
We don't have a Pegasos. Theoretically it would be very easy to get OS 4 to run on the Pegasos considering the very limited technical differences between the AmigaOne and the Pegasos.
What about hardware companies supporting OS4 (wrt scanners, printers)?
None confirmed yet. However, we've been approached by hardware manufactureres about support for OS4. I can't tell any details yet, though.
Will the BlizzardPPC be supported?
Most likely.
Will the BlizzardVision / CyberVisionPPC be supported?
Yes.
4. Other OS4 modules
What's the finalised feature list for OS4?
See Amiga's web page.
What new features will Intuition have?
I'm sorry, but that question is too complex to answer within the scope of this questionnaire.
How much of the new features is finished already?
The new intuition is about 95% finished, last I heard...
What's IBrowse's status?
Ibrowse 2.3 has been in beta-testing for a while now.
What's the status of MUI 4.0?
We have built a complete version of MUI using the latest source-code.
Will there be a new Ed?
No, no new Ed. There are people that use vi, and there are people that use emacs. I use GoldEd. Most people have their favorite editor already. The system's editor is meant for small changes, like changing startup-sequence... most user will still want to go on using their existing editor, though...
How much is DOpus Magellan integrated? Will it be just an external Tool?
That has not yet been decided.
What new shell commands will be available?
There will be a new shell, yes. This isn't really the place to start listing individual shell commands.
What's ARexx's future?
Arexx will be preserved but we are looking at alternatives as a replacement down the line.
Will there be multi-user support? Password protection?
No, at least not in the initial version.
Will Screen-Dragging be possible (again)?
Such a feature is technically "challenging" on anything but the classic hardware. If you run OS4 on a Amiga native mode, it will be possible. But different resolutions at the same time on a standard graphics chip are impossible.
Will OS4 stay video compatible? Will it still be possible to display the Workbench on a TV (as long as the gfx card has TV-out)?
If the driver supports it, yes. After all, this is just a matter of the driver.
How secure is the TCP stack? What about Firewall software?
I think a firewall is integrated. There's also the possibility for IP forwarding, which requires some firewall functionality...
Will openening a Workbench window (and rendering the icons) still block the rest of the system?
Sorry, don't know. AFAIK, this wasn't even the case on the latest Workbench. but I could be mistaken...
5. Misc. Stuff
Could you explain the various delays? What difficulties did you encounter? What unexpected problems had to be solved?
It would take us too far to discuss all the reasons for the delays here. The main reason is that we decided to fold most if not all of the functionality originally planned for OS 4.2 into OS 4.0. Plus there's the fact that we needed to develop the AmigaOne Bios after the original development company (completely unrelated to the Amiga market) failed to come up with the goods.
What will we have to pay fo OS4? Will OS3.5/3.9 owners get a discount?
Pricing has yet to be decided. No price-cuts are planned for OS 3.5 and 3.9 buyers. OS 4.0 is the most comprehensive OS update since 2.x to 3.0 and the targetmarket is quite small. This leaves little room for discounts.
How can I become beta tester?
Beta-testing will initially be carried out by selected and trusted individuals who are known to the 30+ OS 4 developers.
Will there be real manuals as PDF,HTML and AmigaGuide documents?
Time permitting.
Who will handle customer support (bug repots, requests)?
This has yet to be finalised. Let's start with actually releasing OS 4.
What are the long term plans (AmigaOS5)? Will AmigaOS become CPU independant or run on multiple CPUs (IA32, IA64, MIPS, SPARC...)?
Sorry, you'll have to ask Amiga about this. Hyperion is currently only interested in moving OS 4 forward and ensuring its survival on a new and modern hardware platform. Basically, the system has been "cleaned" a bit of CPU dependencies.
However, I don't really see a good chance to run on little endian CPUs... this doesn't only affect the system, but all user code as well, and I would definitely think that a lot of code will fail. Apart from that, chances to run on IA64 are much smaller than anything else (32 bit systems do no port well to 64 bit systems, at least not when you want to use the extra 32 bits...)
Overall, all code working on a system wich also includes little endian CPUs will have to take care about the endian. This is not a problem in itself, but I'm willing to predict that a lot of people will not care about this. They will code for one specific CPU, and this will lead to a real mess.
What are the chances to get JAVA for AmigaOS?
Better than before when AmigaDE can run hosted on OS 4.x.
When will Quake2 be available for AmigaOS?
Hopefully soon.
Will there be Easter Eggs?
If I'd tell you, I'd spoil the fun ;)
-
Will Screen-Dragging be possible (again)?
Such a feature is technically "challenging" on anything but the classic hardware. If you run OS4 on a Amiga native mode, it will be possible. But different resolutions at the same time on a standard graphics chip are impossible.
Bugger. I thought this would be the case. That was one of the features I really loved.
Will there be "Gurus" again?
Probably.
There bloody better had be.......
Endiens?.... my head hurts.
I'm getting a little worried. This will be fun - it'll be cool to use. But will it be Amiga.OS.. and I'm for hardware independence, logically it makes the most sense.... but I guess its really hit me. The days gone by. What we knew and loved. its really over.
-
but I guess its really hit me. The days gone by. What we knew and loved. its really over
You been trying diff. beers again?
:-D :-D
-
Processor coding cowboys are always on the look out for Processor big and little Endians
-
Is it just me or do I only see this kind of info with the Amiga side? I am referring to MOS. The talks are that it is much further and it runs in a much further stage then OS4. But there are no specs. About what's in it, the WB replacement etc. Amiga scores better on this.
Coder
-
Will there be "Gurus" again?
There bloody better had be.......
Maybe OS4 will never crash :-)
But I do hope there are Guru's if it does!
As for screen dragging.. It it's too difficult, leave it. This is different from 'screen swapping' though right? I mean, you can change from a screen in, say 800x600 and bring a 1024x768 one to the front like OS3.x ?
It sounds like Amiga floppy access will be left to third party hardware/software. I don't mind this. Can't remember the last time I used a floppy disk. It's just I'm sure many users have a huge floppy disk collection that they'll want to transfer to A1. Personaly, I'll start preparing now and convert my modest disk collection to CD.
Cheers,
J
-
Well, why don't just mount ADF's as drives?
-
I'm in the process of copying my floppy disks to CD.
Actually, the best way would be to ADF everything onto CD and then use one of the virtual disk apps to use them on the A1.
Anyone here want to do an idiots guide to ADF's, virtual disks, etc?
I for one would like to know more.
-john
-
Actually, the best way would be to ADF everything onto CD and then use one of the virtual disk apps to use them on the A1.
Yeah, that's the way I'm doing it - ADF to CD. It's so easy with Amiga Explorer from Amiga Forever :-)
I haven't fully investigated the ADF utilities/Virtual disks etc so a guide would be very usefull for me...Yes, I know I'm lazy :-P
Cheers,
J
-
As for screen dragging.. It it's too difficult, leave it.
As has been mentioned before, screen dragging in hardware simply wasn't used by the WinTel cartel, so more or less has been dropped (there may be a card out there that still possibly supports screen dragging-tho' I doubt it).
The P96 programmers are not likely to ever implement it in software, as they have stated that they are not too keen on it anyway.
This is different from 'screen swapping' though right? I mean, you can change from a screen in, say 800x600 and bring a 1024x768 one to the front like OS3.x ?
Can't see why this will change. After all, I use this all the time on my Voodoo3 with different programs, without any problems.
-john
-
Good read!
Ip forwarding is very welcome here ... hopefully this does include masq functionality?
-
Great read there, i do hope getting it to run on BPPC will not be to much of a wait over the Cyberstorm, H/W side i will wait on.
-
Will the BlizzardPPC be supported?
Most likely.
*Most* likely???!?!?! :-o :-o
That's NOT what I want to hear. I want to hear DEFINATILY! :-x
Argh...
-
Screen dragging is definately feasible in software, and could
be reasonably quick in performance if it uses hardware aspects
of most video cards. However even the simplest
implementation would require changing the way that a given
screen is displayed either all the time or as a drag starts so
that it can be blitted lower on the screen and screens behind
it blitted onto the larger or smaller frontmost resolution.
Actually I only ever found it useful in two occasions:
1. Writing a game where the lower quartile of the screen
was a hi-res screen providing the button bar, inventory
and text feedback ( recognise the game yet? )
2. Dragging back and forth QUICKLY to look at a bit of code
or map data behind the current screen.
Any other uses for such obscure functionality?
Now screen real-estate is getting so large I am beginning
to find dragging the mouse to the top of the screen to select
menus a pain and the pop up menu in magic-menu clashes with
some of my apps.
-
This is different from 'screen swapping' though right? I mean, you can change from a screen in, say 800x600 and bring a 1024x768 one to the front like OS3.x ?
Yes, support for different screens is an extremely useful feature lacking in all mainstream OSes of today. When users are better informed it may become an important selling point for Amiga.
-
Yes, support for different screens is an extremely useful feature lackng in all mainstream OSes of today. When users are better informed it may become an important selling point for Amiga.
I agree. It's one of the things I miss most when using Windoze or MacOS. I hope screen switching is fast though. Yep, could be a big selling point.
J
-
It seems we'll lose a lot of nice classic Amiga things when we move to the new Amigas, but I don't think screen dragging is the most important of them - most of us lost that years ago. I'd be more worried by the fact the PC standard drive won't read Amiga floppy disks, since Amiga diskdrives use a less primitive electronic mechanism (no kidding!). I guess I better adf all my favourites now like the emulator boys do, sigh.
-
@KennyR
It's noz about being primitive, but just about the number of
stop-bits which is hardcoded into every PC-floppy-controller
(and the A1 has one of those in the southbridge).
But there is hope in the form of the aadapter developed in
Australia (planned for Amithlon. but should also work on the
A1 or Pegasos) and off-course the announced new Catweazle.
-
Oh, and I forgot - the A1 will have to use a Windows keyboard, as far as I know. I hate those things, with their weird keymaps and truly perverse number of function keys. And the caps-lock doesn't have a light inside. And why doesn't that pause key work? ;-)
btw. if you want pause a 3ghz PC the best way is to insert an unformatted floppy - freezes the beast up like ice ;-)
-
@kronos
Quite correct. But if I remember, the reason the PC-clone went for this setup was one of cost-cutting. Not that it needs it now :-O
The original (ISA) catweasel wasn't too hot, I hope the next one is better. It sounds just like the right solution.
-
Screen dragging could be very very usful in so many different areas. Being a software engineer, i can already think of many. One of which you had already mentioned. I would love to have screen dragging. It wouldnt bother me if i couldnt have screen dragging between two different resolutions, i mean, i dont see why one would want to use two different resolutions (cept for games maybe, but who can play games and code at the same time?)...
Screen dragging is a must have, but i think i could do without the multiscreen resolution factor.
But maybe they can impliment screen dragging for at least screen with the same resolutions? Creat workspaces, which cosist of the same resolution and when you switch to that workspace, you can drag screens in the same workspace, over the top of other screens in that same workspace?
I would love to have this feature in amigaOs or any OS for that matter!!!
What you think?
-
Well, I STILL use screen-dragging when I'm doing a letter. I use a Citizen GSX240 on OS3.1 and a util called 'Envelope' which opens on WB.
To enter in an Address I DRAG down the WB till the Address on the letter in ProWrite becomes visible.
Then I COPY and PASTE each line from ProWrite to the 'To' part of 'Envelope'. The PENS conflict makes Colours go astray as the Pointer is moved from one Half-screen to the other but I can live with that!
In OS3.5 I don't have this feature because of P96!
..............................................
4 SCSI Hard Drives (only had a single 52Mb Quantum at purchase).
1 SCSI Zip Drive. (Not working)
1 SCSI Toshiba 3X CD-Rom.
1 External HD Floppy Drive.
1 56K Modem plugged into standard Serial port.
2 Printers through a switchbox.
1 Vidi Video Frame Grabber, also in switchbox.
Card- GVP HD8+ (only for second SCSI addaptor).
Card- PicassoII 2Mb Graphics Card. (Can display Dragged-down screens).
Card- Blizzard 060+SCSI. (Accellorator, RAM, and SCSI).
Card- CBM Display Addaptor. (Flicker-fixer, PAL displays to SVGA).
Daughter board- 3 position Kickboard. (1.3, 2.05, 3.1).
Super Angus board- changed original 1Mb Chip RAM to 2Mb).
-
But maybe they can impliment screen dragging for at least screen with the same resolutions?
;-) That's what I was thinking. CyberGrafix allows some screen dragging even at different resolutions, though it's less than ideal.
:-( If the screen behind is a lower resolution, it appears in miniature at the upper left as it is revealed, with empty space to the right. If the rear screen is a higher resolution, the right hand side is lost off the edge of the screen. Sometimes the colors are all goofed up, as well.
:-) However, as long as the resolution is the same, it should be feasable.
-
i dont see why one would want to use two different resolutions
I would say for the same reasons why some people simultaniously use multiple resolution monitor displays.
For instance it would come in handy when you are developing a website and you want to see (on the fly) what your website looks like with different screen resolutions.
Or think about the future when for example 5120x3840 resolutions or higher resolutions are common for desktop usage, then many of your applications will look like tumbnails on your desktop or their layout could be completely ruined.
Screen dragging is a must have, but i think i could do without the multiscreen resolution factor.
I don't think that would mean much added value as compared to simply having applications running in seperate windows. On AmigaOS4 you can simply drag the window out of the display in any direction and see/use the Window of another application underneath.
-
Multiple resolution displays were heavily used in the golden age of Amiga gaming - you had a low-res game screen so it would be fast and colourful but a high-res status bar so the text would be readable. This little thing, among others, gave the Amiga an edge over its rivals, like the ST. People like clever little touches - and it's amazing the uses they can be put to.
The PC hardware market has stagnated - nothing new, no innovation, just faster faster faster... Their hardware hasn't improved in the scope of what it can do, just in the speed it does it in. And we can't blame Microsoft for this one.
-
The PC hardware market has stagnated - nothing new, no innovation, just faster faster faster... Their hardware hasn't improved in the scope of what it can do, just in the speed it does it in. And we can't blame Microsoft for this one.
lol..thats like true and false.
Yes the pc is a TURTLE with a turbo...how true.
BUt windows is a OS wich is not a OS really (in my eyes)
i could start a flame here...but surely i wont bother.
Point is , if there was a LOW EFFICIENT os like AMIGAOS on x86 (native kernel) with 10000% x86 kernel bla bla bla.... well then all the mainstream 3rd parties on pc would have been ruined , easy as that ..., as then everything would have BEEN fast and not the UPGRADE dayly style it has now.
and btw i am not saying upgrade suxx , i love to upgrade but i dont like how its done on pc....ie u upgrade monday , on friday same week u regret it because allready a v5.x is done of that revision or the product has been dumped and u will have to buy a new device/io.
look at all the great stuff people is throwing away , its like this in the TV/DVD/VIDEO etc all electronics and PC's , u wont exactly find that amount of amiga or macs etc on scrapyards, actually if u are a lucky amigauser u can find voodoo3,4,5 cards in scrapyards ,
people throw away tv models from 1996 , monitors as new as 1999 ...etc , what a sick world...do we really need it to be like this?
Xbox 2.0 will come ASAP , what will this do the console market? , shall we just LOAN a console in the future (at a local games dealer) ,...
point was.... if a real os ever hits a x86 then 3rd parties will have to be innovative,but until then...a new REDESIGN of the PC wouldnt hurt (motherboard/os ...basically all they SHOULD have done in 95 before win95 came)
btw did any of you guys notice A BIG difference with Gforce 3 and 4 ? , well now u MIGHT! see some difference... get a hint? .... why upgrade if it doesnt upgrade?.....
i want the opertunity to upgrade,thats all i ask ...and not a OS that makes ME upgrade over and over again (why M$ is multi trillion gazillion richer than amiga id guess + m$ actaully have a marketing section)
heheh ..hmm turned out to be a flame after all :( ....
sorry...but its the truth...
-
lempkee, I partially agree with what you stated, but I don't think an efficient well designed OS will hurt 3rd parties at all. I even believe a modular OS like AmigaOS offers 3rd parties far better competitive oppertunies.
For example webbrowsers, multimedia players and even far more fundamental OS components are not in any way tied to the underlying OS, unlike the monopolistic Windows OS. This fact offers many oppertunities for an innovative competitive market especially when a well established company would offer OEMs the freedom to choose their own components for consumer devices.
Also I don't believe people should be bothered with upgrading their computers all of the time, this even without adding much functionality, but just to be able to use the latest OS, to browse the web and write a document.
Instead there are many more oppertunies for making money, like for instance selling portable hardware and household devices which work seamlessly with computers and the internet. IMO there is a huge potential market for devices like webtablets, digital interactive TVs, PDA and smart phones, at least if they can all work seamlessly together. Amiga Inc's homesever platform and high performance binary indentical layer could eventually provide such solutions. :-D