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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: hnl_dk on August 08, 2002, 11:24:20 AM
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the AmigaOS 4.0 Features have been revealed!
http://os.amiga.com/os4/OS4Features.php (http://os.amiga.com/os4/OS4Features.php)
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Really nice hearing seeing information on the AmigaOS website :-D
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To true, sounding all good.
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I cannot beleive my eyes:
Exec is the kernel of the AmigaOS and is currently written in 68K assembly.
The Kernel is in 68K assembler ????
If the kernal is not native PPC then what was the whole point of OS4 ???
Regards
Darren
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The Kernel is in 68K assembler ????
If the kernal is not native PPC then what was the whole point of OS4 ???
The FIRST kernal (Exec) was in 68k ASM.. the new PPC kernal for OS 4.0 is Exec SG (Second Generation).
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Hmm
I hope so but that is not how I read this:
Exec Second Generation (Exec SG)
Exec is the kernel of the AmigaOS and is currently written in 68K assembly.
The following features are planned for ExecSG:
This still reads like the "current" Exec SG is in 68K assembly
Check it yourself... (http://os.amiga.com/os4/OS4Features.php)
Regards
Darren
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@newbee
I think you should change your user name from "newbee" to "idiot".
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Nice attitude :-(
Regards
Darren
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Hey, it's not his fault they made a typegraphical and gramatical error.
They should have said the pre-4.0 Exec or 3.x exec is written in 68k assembly.
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Okay I might have been a little harsh, but when someone seems intent on believing the worst.. its slightly annoying.
OS 4.0 Development Update from January 2002.
http://amiga.realdreams.cz/local/21_1amigaos4.html
Exec Second Generation (Exec SG)
Exec is the kernel of the AmigaOS and is currently written in 68K assembly.
Exec is being re-written in C and new functionality will be introduced to allow the deployment of OS 4.x on any suitable PPC hardware.
(end quote)
Re-written in C, which means able to be recompiled for PPC, not stuck on 68k.
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Much better.
It looks like the quote I was getting upset about was just a typo/ommission.
Friends again ??? :-)
Regards
Darren
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Exec is the kernel of the AmigaOS and is currently written in 68K assembly.
I can see what newbee means. If you read it like that it gives the impression that it is written in 68k. Offcourse it is not. If it would say, Exec is the kernel used in previous OS versions and is written in 68k. If you are not really brought up to speed on all the info it sure gives you the impression that it is written in 68k. I think everyone agrees with me this is the truth.
Coder
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@newbee
Yeah. Sorry for my over reaction.
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OS 4 will include a simple tool which allows the user to back-up files by burning them to an ISO 9660 CD which also allows for exchanging data between systems)
I like this feature.
Coder
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The kernel is written in C? I thought it was to be totally rewritten to PPC ASM.
The feature list looks impressive. Quite an update from 3.1.
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Ok...looking good, although as pointed out in earler posts the text should be adjusted.
It looks like AI just posted a page they made ages ago without really reading it...i.e. Exec is written in 68K ASM...they should not have even bothered putting that in. It is unnecessary and could (in this case has) cause FUD.
Not what we need right now.
The logo on the orther hand is fantastic.
Allen
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AFAIK the plan was to convert all 68k assembly to C and generate ppc code from that as C is more portable than 68k assembly. I am not a programmer, I understood that from posts.
LionStorm
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Yep. That's how I understood it too. So I doubt they will be using PPC ASM at all...well hand coded ASM that is...also have you seen PPC ASM?
It is a bit of a nightmare to say the least, it is far better to let a compiler figure out what needs to be done and optimise your code for you...unless you like bleeding from your ears! :-)
Really getting excited now as you can finally see what AI/Hyperion have been doing for the last few months/years!!
Allen
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Woo! Kick-ass! I just want this NOOOOW!
PPC native CD Filesystem
with limited Mount Rainier support (use your CDRW as a floppy)
Thats pretty damn cool :)
Recovery and Salvage tools for FFS2 and SFS
Hope its better than DiskDoctor (the last salvage tool to ship with AmigaOS :-) )
AmigaInput API (for multimedia controller devices)
The amiga has needed a unified multimedia controller system for ages... lowlevel.library just isn't enough!
Web-browser (Ibrowse 2.3)
MUI PPC (for legacy applications)
I wonder if these will be demo versions?
Reading/printing of PDF files
I hope its better than what we have at the moment. I mean, APDF is great for what it is, but its not as good as whats available on windohs and linux...
Generic PPC native PCI library
I hope this supports Mediator. Elbox aren't exactly keen on generic PCI libraries!
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@Tickly
I am sure Ibrowse is a full version. It would not be a good idea to ship demo software with it.
Coder
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3.5/9 had a limited version of Aweb! i guess it wont be a DEMO version at least i HOPE so but most likely it wont be full version either! then again i could be wrong.
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I just think there should be a fully working browser coming along with OS4.
Coder
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I just think there should be a fully working browser coming along with OS4.
Well if nothing else free Aweb could probably be included in the contributions archive. Then again Ibrowse will be PPC native..kick arse!
:-D
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Hoya!
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's what I call arse-kicking news!!!! :-D :-D :-D
Be VERY funky!!!
M A D
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its very good to see things are getting nearer and seems to be well and kicking.
my biggest concerns are solely about the webbrowser - none of the old amigabrowser cut it any more (and havnt for several years). a good move would be to get the latest build of mozilla running instead.
/stone
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Actually, no. According to Bill McEwan at the AmiWest conference, Exec SG is *still* in MC68K and *is being* ported to PPC native. The following quote from Emanuel's show transcripts should clarify things
(Bill McEwan's first speech) So, what you get in the AmigaOS 4, and this will be all written down better than what I have here: Second generation Exec, it is written in 68k Assembly and it's being ported over to PowerPC.
:-(
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I think there is a confusing part, when they say:
"it is written in 68k Assembly " they always talk about the Exec of previous AmigaOS's. Not about ExecSG wich is the new Exec for OS4.
Coder
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Quote:
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I just think there should be a fully working browser coming along with OS4.
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Well if nothing else free Aweb could probably be included in the contributions archive. Then again Ibrowse will be PPC native..kick arse!
I'm sure AWeb gets PPC native as soon AmigaOS 4.0 gets released :-D
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I'm sure AWeb gets PPC native as soon AmigaOS 4.0 gets released
Oh I agree:-) This will be a good situation for us wanting a good browser. The Ibrowse guy will be competing against a quality free browser. He'll have to keep it ahead of Aweb featurewise to justify it's cost.
Cool!
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I think this kind of wraps it up. This is an extract of the phone interview with Thoms Frieden of Hyperion. Also taken from the AmiWest 2002 transcripts.
T(thomas Frieden): Well, yeah, just recently we finished the ExecSG kernel. Well, "finished" is not really correct, we finished it in a state that is more or less the same [unintelligible] more than the original Exec. But right now we're also updating the memory subsystem, because we now have a purely physical memory system, but what we want to do is, we want to make the memory system virtual... Hello?
and soon after in the conversation, this . . .
T: Well, yeah, in the original concept we wanted to base OS4 mainly on emulation. For example, we wanted to have a purely native PPC kernel, but [unintelligible] most of the modules as 68k and emulate them. But we found out that this solution is not the optimal solution. Of course it's not optimal, but it's lacking in a lot of parts... Some of the responsiveness that was one of the cornerstones of the Amiga operating system was lost due to this emulation. We decided that most of the important stuff has to be PPC as well. Additionally, for the first, we wanted to have a rather simple virtual memory system, something like VMM, more of... more like an add-on to the original system, but in the meantime we found out that even that would be not... It would really make the whole system more [unintelligible] , so we decided to go for a real virtual addressing scheme, and that is what we are currently working on [unintelligible] back to Exec.
Right. So what does all this mean? I guess taking my 2 posts together, and making some deductions about what was said we have 3 conclusions:
1/. ExecSG will definately be ported to PPC native as portable C(?).
2/. ExecSG is either not finished (still in MC68k) or is going to be used in OS 4.0 in a "good enough" state (also MC68k).
3/. *If* ExecSG gets used in a "good enough" state in OS4.0 (as MC68k), then no-one has told us *when* the PPC native version of ExecSG will ship, or if it will ship as an update (kernel patch?) or as an OS revision. (I prefer the former!)
Any opinions ppl?
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My opinion is that instead of inviting people to guess what Hyperion are up to, we should just wait and see.
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The feature list, like ALL feature lists, started out in life as a wish list, then was trimmed to become the specification. The status we see here has elements of the original wish list in it still.
The confusion arises from the mixed tenses - what started out as "should" became "will", then "is" or "has". Only if someone continuously updates the status will it read properly from day to day. We can't be sure which parts of the list have been done and which haven't - the list is probably obsolete now, already.
Don't panic, all development proceeds this way. Pity the poor technical writer who is given a folder full of data like this and has to massage it into a lucid and accurate story.
OT: My wife and I are off on a driving holiday, leaving on Saturday. If nothing goes wrong we should be away for 6-8 weeks. I will expect you guys and gals to keep the pressure up so that the AmigaOne is all finished and ready for me to order on my return :-D
Have a good one
tony
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My conclusions on the material is that:
1. ExecSG is a native PPC product.
2. It is not entirely completed because of additions made to it (the mem stuff).
3. The 68k emulation idea was (early ?) abandoned due to it being too slow and unefficient.
When it comes to the browser issue, i must say that i am a bit disapointed, a mozilla build would have been much better.
But then again this could be done later on by others aswell.
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Sounds good, now only one question remains: When will the damn thing be released? I need a faster computer, and I need it several months ago. I just hope Hyperion can finish the OS really soon, so that I can get one. I'd hate to have to get a Wintendo, but unless an upgrade path for my miggy materializes soon, I might just have to... :-/
Kay
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ExecSG was always planned as a fully PPC native Exec replacement.
Thomas Frieden basically took the original Exec which was in 68K ASM and re-implemented it completely in C whilst improving on the original design in the process.
C source-code can obviously be compiled for PPC.
What we are doing now is adding "virtual addressing".
This was not planned originally but the benefits of this are so important that we decided to go ahead and do it.
Benefits include things like less memory fragmentation, faster and more efficient memory allocation and de-allocation, much more robust virtual memory implementation and finally automatic stack enlargement.
Between 30 to 50% of all crashes on the Amiga are due to programs running out of stack-space.
With OS 4, this won't happen anymore as the stack can be automatically enlarged when the system detects a program is about to run out.
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What we are doing now is adding "virtual addressing".
That is a great thing. :-) We sure do not want a crashy system.
Coder
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Between 30 to 50% of all crashes on the Amiga are due to programs running out of stack-space.
With OS 4, this won't happen anymore as the stack can be automatically enlarged when the system detects a program is about to run out.
Thats what I call a great feature :-D :-o :-D
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Thomas Frieden basically took the original Exec which was in 68K ASM and re-implemented it completely in C whilst improving on the original design in the process.
End of conversation. The Guv has spoken and no more arguing. ExecSG IS now ported to C
-john
ps I mailed Ben for clarification on a couple of other points. I'll post up later as and when he approves the wording to ensure that it doesn't add to further confusion.
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@jd997uk
ps I mailed Ben for clarification on a couple of other points. I'll post up later as and when he approves the wording to ensure that it doesn't add to further confusion.
Looking forward to that. :-)
Coder
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Re .. Datatypes
Whats gonna happen to the Jpg Datatype (was there gonna be one?) Now that there is a licensing issue with the new owners of the Jpg patent??
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Will IBrowse be a full version or a Special Edition? A modern OS should have a fully functional Web Browser.
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I wish there was a port of XFree86 just like A Mac OS X port (in Darwin) but accelerated. This would give an instant few thousands application to be available for Amiga as it hits the stores...
Of course - once you have X support, it wouldn't take very long to port either Mozilla, Open Office or KDENOX (Konqueror without the full KDE Libs, very tiny and got all the KHTML implementations)...
Wishful thinking? if there will be a commercial one - I'll buy it!
Hetz
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Will IBrowse be a full version or a Special Edition? A modern OS should have a fully functional Web Browser.
Yeah thank you MicroSloth, not! Where do you draw the line and stop adding "features" to an OS? There is a reason the cost of M$ products is skyrocketing.
Likely the version that ships with OS4.0 will be a limited version.
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Benefits include things like less memory fragmentation, faster and more efficient memory allocation and de-allocation, much more robust virtual memory implementation and finally automatic stack enlargement.
Between 30 to 50% of all crashes on the Amiga are due to programs running out of stack-space.
With OS 4, this won't happen anymore as the stack can be automatically enlarged when the system detects a program is about to run out.
Well, programs running out of stack is a problem caused by sloppy programmers, it shouldnt have
to happen at all. Better spend time on learning people
to handle recursive algorithms properly.
It is strange people seems to have such a problem with using StackSwap() :)
I hope it doesnt add too much overhead.
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Alternatively, using languages that are safe..
Which brings up a question: will SHEEP make it to
AmigaOS ?
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Browsers should all now be free. Now that there is the open-source AWeb, i doubt any other person could even try to make money out of a browser.
As i see it, the only reason IBrowse will stay alive is if someone like Hyperion or Amiga Inc buys this guy out. Because at the pace open source software seems to move these days, then the amount of people ready to volinteer, a commercial browser just cant compete unless they have hurds of developers working on new groud breaking improvements/inhancements. IBrowse doesnt have that and prolly never will.
I will be surprised if sales of IBrowse will go anywhere but down from here on. Sad, i know, but the fact is, there is a free browser now for AmigaOS, one that will continualy be updated, and is not effected by commercial obligations (making money).
Also, the chances of Amiga Inc and hyperion buying out this guy are slim also unless they can see the advantage of having parts of the webbrowser integrated within the system. That is, because they also see the fact that they already have a browser for AmigaOS (AWeb) and with a licence like the ALP (Or what ever it was called), its going to be hard to compete .
my 2c
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I guess I have to clean up this confusion, even though I wanted to stay away...:
Believe me (as the main programmer behind ExecSG): ExecSG has *never* been 68k. It was being written on the PPC from day 1.
I think it wouldn't make any sense to start such a PPC native OS as a 68k assembly project.
Unfortunately, the wording in the feature list was a bit misleading: It refers to the *OLD* exec, not to ExecSG.
Ok, I'm off again :-D
Thomas
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Thnx for clearing that up Thomas.
Coder
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Jep, nice to hear from you Thomas :-D
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The confusing lines have now been fixed in the original Amiga Inc post:
Exec Second Generation (Exec SG)
Exec is the AmigaOS kernel and was written in 68K assembly for AmigaOS 3.1. It has been rewritten in C, as ExecSG, for AmigaOS 4.
The following features are planned for ExecSG:
Thank you to all concerned, this is now clear and un-ambiguos.
Regards
Darren
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It has been rewritten in C, as ExecSG, for AmigaOS 4.
The following features are planned for ExecSG:
...this is now clear and un-ambiguos.
Heh. Maybe they should try again. ;)
Yeah, yeah, you and me know what they mean, but...
"In AmigaOS 4, the Exec kernel will have been updated to ExecSG, a PPC-native version rewritten in C. The following features are being implemented:"
Now, that wasn't so hard. :)
Oh well, it's just marketing. Get it done and stop with the preliminary pre-pre-pre-meta-pseudo-semi-announcement-announcements.
Apparently, "we can have AmigaOS 4 when they pry our cold, dead hands open and put it there". ;)