Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 02:00:16 PM
The NON Technical FAQ to the coldfire based AMIGA.
Version 1 – I respond
The following is quick FAQ that answers the most common questions that people have asked in the last 24 hours (had a big response).
Q – So what on earth is the coldfire AMIGA project?
A – It’s a project to move the AMIGA to the 68k series natural successor, the coldfire. Now we are planning to use version 4 of the processor that is naturally very compatible with the 68k as it features most of the instruction set from the 68k.
Q – So will all my existing software work?
A – Most of it, I’m betting almost every piece of Workbench software you have will run. Most of your games should too. We get around the missing instructions by using Motorola’s own emulation layer. This layer patches 68k commands to their coldfire alternatives without too much loss in speed. Hopefully the only thing you’ll notice is a very fast AMIGA. The downside is that some games will run far faster than they every should of done. Users of the 060 will notice some older games now play at an amazing rate, so much so that they are unplayable (would you like a list of such games) – this will be even more apparent in the coldfire but most games should run fine.
Q – So this a brand new AMIGA?
A – It will be pretty much, but to begin with we are working on the accelerator cards for the A1200/4000 and possibly other machines.
Q – Why not just go straight to the AMIGA clone and scrap the accelerator card?
A – Development is the simple answer. The accelerator board we are working on will serve us by turning our existing AMIGAs into development machines for testing purposes, much before the final AMIGA is assembled. You guys will have the chance to buy such a board that will mean a very fast traditional AMIGA for you all at a reasonable price. Should be our chance to move SDRAM to the traditional classic AMIGAs as well.
Q – So then after that you’ll start on the completely new AMIGA?
A – Not start, we have in effect started now on the new AMIGA, but it will be a background project. Our main problem was supply of the AGA chipset but this seems to have been solved in a big way. My personal preference was to purchase the rights to own/manufacture a batch of the hombre/integrated AGA chipset as this can just be remanufactured again and again where as the AGA chipset can’t but they seem to have a big supply anyway. Problem solved.
Q – The AGA chipset is dated.
A – Yep, its there for compatibility, stick with your regular graphics card or an alternative GPU for everything else. One possibility is to raise the AGA chipsets CHIP RAM limitations above 2mb. Most signs say we can’t do this, however a jumper on the AMIGA 4000s motherboard suggests this may well be possible, but no promises.
Q – Will I need new ROMs?
A – I don’t see why you would, the system will think it has a true 68k CPU at its heart so you won’t need new ROMs and I’m betting a lot of your existing hardware will work also including the new PPC on a PCI card for the A4000.
Q – Why bother – the AMIGA One is just around the corner?
A – True but its been around the corner for a while now and OS 4.0 doesn’t seem to be exactly racing along does it? Our machine is different. We don’t move across to the PPC although this could have easily been done, we could have built our own AMIGA One motherboard based around Motorola’s reference designs but both myself and Oliver feel this is the better approach and will benefit you all far more, cost should also be kept down – have you seen the price of the AMIGA One?
Q – Take it you won’t be buying an AMIGA One?
A – May do, I feel the AMIGA One is flawed but fun anyway, this is my personal opinion by the way.
Q – Your not going to have OS 4.0, you’ll be way behind.
A – OS 4.0 Won’t be a leap forward, its just going to be a move to the PPC platform. Don’t expect anything like OS 3.9 guys or you’ll be in for a shock when your AMIGA One and OS 4.0 beta arrive on your desk. If there’s enough demand an OS 4.0 could be moved across or we could simply work with AROS that is our best option. Until then kick 3.1 and OS 3.9 should be fine.
Q – Okay once you’ve made the development board/accelerator card what sort of clone AMIGA will we see?
A – A few, an A1200 style machine is proving popular with you guys but I suspect an ATX board (perhaps micro) would be best for the first board. It could have PCI slots and AGP or a much needed update to the Zorro. This is a bit of step away yet. One interesting design would be to mount the AGA chipset on a separate card that can simply be replaced when no longer needed or if you don’t want backwards compatibility simply add your own Voodoo or ATI. Nothings set in stone.
Q – Can we have an AMIGA laptop?
A – Why not! There has been a lot of wishful people asking for such a device. Its more than possible and we would just stick a board in Taiwanese OEM case (as used by Compaq, IBM etc) or design our own. I know Oliver is very much interested in such a device – you may wish to contact him.
Q – How can I help?
A – In many ways. We are looking for people who are good with PCB design, a head for software or hardware or simply guys and gals who want to purchase a Coldfire processor or two. Once we have 24 the fun starts. I’m going to approach the guys on the Atari project as they haven’t even purchased any cold fires yet and may well buy a few at the same time.
Can I just say thank you for all the support and the criticism is also proving useful. We do know there has a been a coldfire type card that was almost finished but wasn’t release. My understanding was that this didn’t use the V4 Coldfire like we are wanting to use, so ours will be faster and thanks to Motorola, just as compatible. No pre orders please, just buy a processor if you want to help. You could keep it until we release the PCB for the accelerator, use it in your own projects or just mount it on the wall. The CPU is about £25 per chip.
PJ Matthews
Post by: HyperionMP on April 18, 2002, 02:30:01 PM
I'm sorry guys, much as a like your project (which should have been undertaken years ago) but this comment really has no foundation.
OS 4 will sport more OS improvements and enhancements than 3.5 and 3.9 put together and is in fact the most ambitious OS update since 2.x to 3.0.
I suggest you re-read the Executive Update from some time ago.
Ben Hermans/Hyperion
Post by: whabang on April 18, 2002, 02:34:58 PM
This is a really good idea but nope, I'm trying to get hold of a CDTV to begin with, and then later on an A1...
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 02:47:05 PM
Also some AMIGA users have raised some very valid points - Do you think the AMIGA One is AMIGA Incs priority? Nope - they arn't developing the board and they certainly arn't nmoving the OS. Quite rightfully they are dealing with the AMIGA De which is great and has caused some stir amongst the general world but our AMIGA One hasn't really. Now I understand all you AMIGA One supporters, myself and Oliver like it too but don't want to see the classic AMIGA die, we want to see it grow and thrive and so do most of you guys.
As for the the CDTV talk to Oliver, the CDTV nut. His web site is great www.cdtv.org.uk and he even owns a prototype CDTV.
Post by: redrumloa on April 18, 2002, 02:50:47 PM
Quote
I think your in for a suprise when it lands on your desk - OS 5.0 is the biggy.
Hehehe:-) You know you just told the managing partner of Hyperion(Who is making OS4.0) he would be in for a surprise? :-) hehehe. If anyone won't be surprised it will be Hyperion:-)
Post by: redrumloa on April 18, 2002, 02:55:17 PM
Just one word of caution.
Caution!
Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Your proposed first step, the accelerator card, will take 2 years minimum to complete. I'm not saying you arent capable but don't underestimate the size of the project.
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 02:57:07 PM
My only real complaint with OS 4.0 is the lack of a move forward - its more of a step side wides, theres nothing hugely new that the AMIGA community has't already patched. Also am I right in understanding AMIGA Inc intend to develope OS 5.0 themselves?
This is getting off topic. Oh and good news we have a manufacture already!
lol
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 02:58:29 PM
Post by: redrumloa on April 18, 2002, 03:05:48 PM
Quote
My only real complaint with OS 4.0 is the lack of a move forward - its more of a step side wides, theres nothing hugely new that the AMIGA community has't already patched
IMO OS4.0 isn't a sideways step. It is an enourmous step fowards. ExecSG isn't on Aminet. Petunia isn't either. This is just 2 of the new parts. Sorry to disagree.
Post by: redrumloa on April 18, 2002, 03:06:36 PM
Quote
Oh and while your here - WHERES OUR SCREEN SHOTS
That would be nice :-D
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 03:06:45 PM
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 03:19:05 PM
Now Hyperion its great to see OS 4.0 coming out, and it'll be the OS we needed for the past 5 years or so. But - please release those screen shots or atleast be honest about why you havn't supplied them. If that guys still ill then he must be half dead - I appreciate your GUI isn't anyway near ready, but even a DOS window would suffice! I also appreciate that most of the hardwork is shifing the core of the OS, thats one of the reasons why any other processor other than the coldfire is mostly out of bounds. You guys have seen what sorts of problems a commerical company had, imagine what we would have? This is largely a hobby machine as many of you have put it, but we feel we have a large appeal to the AMIGA community and your e-mails certainly say so. An offer from a major company in assisting us is also going to prove useful.
An accelerator card won't take us two years to make, a whole new AMIGA will. Yes this is a project that should of been around years ago but remember the V4 wasn't around years ago, its all possible because of this CPU.
I'm not telling you to wait for our system, sure go by AMIGA One and join the PPC world. I do promise the rest of you who want this system/accelerator that we won't fail you, the AMIGA community has been failed too many times, we simply won't do it.
Goodluck to Hyperion and AMIGA Inc (paticuarly with the player) but we also wish to keep the classic AMIGA alive, its been with us for too long to let go of, and again the e-mails have justified this.
Thankyou to everyone who wanted processors, we are nearly there - possibly past there - I'll have to figure it out.
And also a the end of the day WE ARE NOT A COMPANY. WE DO NOT HAVE LOTS OF MONEY. WE ARE USING ALL OUR SPARE TIME FOR YOU! WE ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR THIS! And as many of you know, its not cheap to develope such a device. Theres my 450 cents.
PEEJ
PJ
www.walibe.com
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 03:20:34 PM
Going in via the trapdoor slot won't require a licence, oddly enough. A licence this open would require only licenced joysticks, mice, printers, modems etc. could be plugged into the system.
Also, a full functioning MoBo, wouldn't either.. just the software stored on the roms.
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 03:21:01 PM
Quote
Where's your LICENSE from AMIGA, Inc?
Nope don't need one, this is an add on card. For a whole new AMIGA? Yes we'll need one but we'll leave that until then or for our possible manufacture/retailer to work out.
PJ
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 03:46:43 PM
I already hate actual hardware for the classic Amiga like the Z4 board or some silly clockport extensions. There are only few products of high quality. Look @ the PC-market. Every board and card is of high quality (at least those of a certain price range) and you can't blow off your system only by putting a cable on wrong pins.
As conclusion:
We need a mainboard that is tested, debugged and quality approved with a state-of-the-art-processor (G3/G4 PPC) on to which you can switch every good hardware such as graphics-, sound-cards, etc. (remeber: it's not PC-hardware, it's only GOOD HARDWARE)
That's my opinion. I won't spend any money on the Classic Amiga-line.
GREETZ!
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 03:56:27 PM
PJ
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 04:05:57 PM
PJ
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 04:07:10 PM
Post by: csirac_ on April 18, 2002, 04:09:21 PM
I don't agree on you talking down AmigaOS 4.0, yes it's true it won't be a lot more functional than a heavily hacked OS3.x, but:
1. PPC all the way
2. Fast 68k emulation
3. A clean code base that not only relies on 3rd party hacks, but should pave the way to a) be more portable to other machines, such as (perhaps) yours and b) new wonderful functionality.
4. Some attempt at standardising/updating the official Amiga APIs
BUT I wanted to again offer my services as an MEE engineering student :) (see my email I sent you).
I've done lots of PCB layouts and microcontroller project designs but only two layers and even then only up to 1200 interconnections (all hand routed ;)
I've never bothered with such nicities as high frequency transmission lines (signal length equalisation, noise margins, cross talk) etc. so I'm probably not much use - just a student - but if you need any ideas, some AROS work, let me know :)
Cheers,
- Paul Harvey
Post by: Bobsonsirjonny on April 18, 2002, 04:26:03 PM
A souped up classic interests me very much - as a fun machine. A toy - perhaps something for the kids to regenerate the bedroom coding scene. But that is all - it will never compete with PPC machines - be it A1 or Pegasos. I am going to buy an A1, as this hardware has a future - its a migration forward. However, please go ahead and develop your coldfire machine. I would be really interested in buying a laptop! I like the sound of it! But dont spout Ann drivel here.
On a side note - I don't underestimate the importance of AROS.
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 04:31:39 PM
Alot of people have asked is the AMIGA One really an AMIGA? It does't even have a kickstart and yet can use the AMIGA name. Well in my opinion the AMIGA One is an AMIGA just as much as that emulated AMIGA running on your PC or your faithful A1200.
Keep the comments coming.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 06:32:42 PM
Usually emulator efficiency is only 10% / less.
Perhaps Transmeta CPU will have a better price/performance in running 68K programs.
Do you plan to create Multi processor accelerator boards for future MorphOS or AROS?
Do you plan to do reverse engineering / re-engineering of AGA chipset?
Do you see a succesful commercial prospect if someone invest in your product?
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 06:40:57 PM
Within the AMIGA market itself, providing the price is right it could sell very well indeed to those wishing to keep their classic route alive. On the high street it meets a niche market. It has a relatively fast processor plus a collection of older software which is largely free of charge. It could be the new AMIGA 500 in the 21st century. There is no replacement out there for the A500/A1200. Tell me another machine that you can buy new that can do what they did at that time?
Retro computing is fashinable and if high street marketed or in the right magazines you'll get alot of interest and the more powerful processor means a very good Internet capable computer thats just as at home as a PC when writing documents. If you change the GPU then you end up with a system rivaling recent games consoles but thats another story.
Thankyou for your interest
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 06:50:27 PM
:-?
The last thing the Amiga needs now is another split in the market. We need as many ppl as possible behind AmigaOne, and other OS4 licenced solutions, to garentee future development of the hardware platform and OS. :-( :-(
Post by: Kronos on April 18, 2002, 06:52:19 PM
/UAE/MorphOS (which reach between 30 and 60% btw) but just
something like the old 68040.library.
The 040.lib is called everytime when 68882-instruction is used
that doesn't exist in the 040/060 (like sin() cos()..).
Post by: amigamad on April 18, 2002, 08:08:55 PM
The amigaone is nearly finished just waiting for os 4 after all we need to move forward rather than backwards .
Anyone out there remember the boxer if they could not get there machine out what hope is there for this project.info for the amigaone (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone)
I will sell my ppc a1200 tower once the amigaone is here eyetech are a good company to buy from.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 08:14:27 PM
This is actually one of the reasons Amiga didn't want any further updates of the Classic OS on 68K.
You're plain wrong about OS 4 BTW. If you think 3.9 had a lot of new stuff, then you'll be awed by OS 4 which has rewrites of key OS components like DOS, layers, Exec, Intuition, FFS etc.
It'll come with the fastest and most functional TCP/IP stack on the platform.
Nothing you can get off the Aminet.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 08:16:29 PM
PJ Matthews
Post by: Coder on April 18, 2002, 08:16:58 PM
Coder
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 08:24:51 PM
Thankyou for your support coder, its appreciated and makes all the difference.
People don't think this is something that won't happen - as I have already said we have a very large AMIGA company (you will all have heard of them but I won't name them here just yet) offering us help and its great to see, they have everything we need to complete this project.
PJ Matthews
Post by: Coder on April 18, 2002, 08:34:35 PM
I am checking it out a bit now. Very interesting. I mean it. Just curious, how will the payment go if you want to buy it? I mean for us wanting to help you out.
Coder
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 09:09:32 PM
PJ
Post by: Fats on April 18, 2002, 09:28:07 PM
Quote
I think AROS is great though, why AMIGA Inc just didn't have those guys move it I will never know.
Thanks for the compliment.
The reason is that Amiga Inc. is not ready for Open Source. (And given the latest Status Update they probably never will be) There were some discussions with Gary about using AROS in Amiga Inc. but they wanted the privilege to release it under a non-Open Source license but the majority of the AROS developers were against it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with this thinking of Amiga Inc. It's just that it is incompatible with the AROS license.
Also AROS was evolving at a slow pace at that time which was also not good for marketing purposes either.
Post by: jdiffend on April 18, 2002, 10:05:58 PM
Quote
How fast is 68K emulator running on top of ColdFire?
Usually emulator efficiency is only 10% / less.
FWIW, it is not an emulator like we are used to seeing. It is an illegal instruction trap where only unsupported 68k instructions/address modes are emulated so most instructions execute at the rate of one per clock cycle. V4e and especially V5 cores will execute more than one instruction per clock cycle.
I built a table that shows which instructions are on what processors including all Coldfire cores. With the 5407 or higher most instructions are supported by the core.
Post by: JamesR on April 18, 2002, 10:07:47 PM
My example would be when I started the mozAmiga project (at mozamiga.mozdev.org), hoping to be a project manager for some Amiga coders to port Mozilla to the new Amiga. Did I get e-mails of support and offers of help from the community? Sure I did! Did I get any real coding help? No!
Honestly, most of your support e-mails from ANN will probably wind up to be blowing smoke up your rear end, and most won't put up like they say they will now. It's a lot easier to e-mail someone and say "I'd buy it!" than it is to actually cough up the cash when the product comes out.
Then consider that your hardware will NOT be mass-produced simply because of the miniscule market your making it for (a fraction of the total Classic Amiga community, which can't even support itself in total, much less in fractions). I, at least, don't want to pay top dollar for a souped-up old machine.
I think if you did manage to get a product out at some point, your initial product won't be capable of running new AmigaOne programs and will be released a good two years (according at least to one estimate in a post above) AFTER the AmigaOne is released. By then the only people who will care about a ColdFire Amiga will be the diehard "Classic or kill me" Amiga fanatics left in the community.
Really, I just don't see the point. But good luck!
James
Post by: Chathurawind on April 18, 2002, 10:33:21 PM
PJ Matthews
Post by: Kronos on April 18, 2002, 10:38:47 PM
I don't think your maschine is going to be a big succes but
what do i know :-o :-o
It's definitly a geek-maschine like the C=1 but could also aim at
a few serious people like the Atari-Coldfire.
BtW: Any idea how much this could cost ?
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 11:19:10 PM
The Accelerators will be first out though - we'll try and keep those as cheap as possible.
PJ
Post by: jdiffend on April 18, 2002, 11:25:03 PM
Quote
Q ? Will I need new ROMs?
A ? I don?t see why you would, the system will think it has a true 68k CPU at its heart so you won?t need new ROMs and I?m betting a lot of your existing hardware will work also including the new PPC on a PCI card for the A4000.
I can tell you absolutely positively without a doubt that you can't depend on the normal Amiga add on ROM method like you told me you planned to do. I researched this before (lord knows I didn't want to rewrite the ROM) and found it wouldn't work.
I just verified my findings to be sure before saying anything.
Look at the Exec 1.2 dissasembly on Aminet. The startup code that looks for the add on ROM executes an illegal Coldfire instruction before the jump to the new ROM.
If you don't believe me check address FC00F4. The very instruction that tests for the ROM isn't legal on any Coldfire cpu.
The existing ROM checks for an add on ROM like this:
FC00F4 cmp.w #$1111,(A1) ; If "1111" not found at F00000, then
FC00F8 bne.s FC00FE ;continue running below, else start
FC00FA jmp 2(A1) ; Jump to add on ROM
With portasm configured for the coldfire V4 this:
cmp.w #$1111,(A1)
translates to this:
move.w (a1),d0
cmp.w #0x1111,d0
I haven't decoded the 3.1 ROM but it is likely that it would test for an add on ROM in the same way.
At least some sort of patch to the existing ROM is needed and there are ways to do it and keep the existing ROM.
Did I mention that accessing the ROM through an accellerator port is slower than FLASH on the accellerator?
The solution I came up with was to make the standard Amiga ROM appear at a different address in memory so the initial FLASH startup code could copy it to flash, patch it and restart. The patch would jump to the add on ROM code and skip the test completely. I suggested this in July of last year. An alternative was to use a V4e part, copy the ROM to RAM, patch it there and run it from RAM.
Like I said, I spent a lot of time on this.
Post by: System on April 18, 2002, 11:41:25 PM
PJ Matthews
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 02:33:47 AM
Develop a PCI card fro the Amiga 1.
There is provision for a PCI card to connect a classic a1200 motherbord.
Why not put your coldfire chip, bios etc on a PCI card and do it better.
OS 4 will use your card to run calssic software and I beleve you can boot the PC to an original OS (3.9??) nad user the A1 borad as an accelerator.
Everyone will
Regards
Darren Thompson
darrent@senet.com.au
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 02:35:34 AM
Here is a thought...
Develop a PCI card fro the Amiga 1.
There is provision for a PCI card to connect a classic A1200 motherbord.
Why not put your coldfire chip, bios etc on a PCI card and do it better.
OS 4 will use your card to run classic software and I beleve you can boot the PC to an original OS (3.9??) and use the A1 borad as an accelerator.
Everyone wins
Regards
Darren Thompson
darrent@senet.com.au
Post by: System on April 19, 2002, 02:46:30 AM
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 06:59:49 AM
Regards
Darren
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 09:50:23 AM
Hi
From AMIGA SDK for Linux v.1.0 manual, page 148:
"Supported processor type: CPU #26 CF52XX"
Therefore it is possible to run AMIGA DE / AA on top of ColdFire CPU! :)
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 10:49:31 AM
Everytime nothing happens.
Everytime, it is ridiculed by people who know its virtually impossible.
Why would I want a coldfire accelerator option when I could just use an Amiga One?
Go back to your stupid vapour world you stupid people.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 10:57:53 AM
Post by: jahc on April 19, 2002, 11:06:51 AM
Quote
Oh and while your here - WHERES OUR SCREEN SHOTS
Yes, I'm also eagerly awaiting these screenshots. :)
Post by: Coder on April 19, 2002, 11:26:10 AM
What I ment was how the payment would go to you. If I decide to do it how would that go. Just curious.
Coder
Post by: jdiffend on April 19, 2002, 11:27:57 AM
Quote
Therefore it is possible to run AMIGA DE / AA on top of ColdFire CPU!
Based on the CF52XX I'd say yes but on top of uclinux only.
Post by: System on April 19, 2002, 11:48:07 AM
Quote
Q – The AGA chipset is dated.
A – Yep, its there for compatibility, stick with your regular graphics card or an alternative GPU for everything else. One possibility is to raise the AGA chipsets CHIP RAM limitations above 2mb. Most signs say we can’t do this, however a jumper on the AMIGA 4000s motherboard suggests this may well be possible, but no promises.
Interesting story, I once had an A4000, and I also noted the whole 8mb jumper thing. I slotted 8mb simm in the graphics memory slot jumpered it to 8M and what happened... I blew up my Alice.
Shortly after I saw a sig in someones email which was a quote from Some Amiga engineer, which was about not playing with jumpers.
The truth is to take 8MB you need to redesign a whole bunch of the custom chips, this was a possible future possibility so was marked out on the A4000 Motherboard and no doubt you could have just swapped in the new chips a la angus.
To be honest getting your promises from jumpers on the A4000 motherboard sounds a little bit silly.
Post by: Rodney on April 19, 2002, 12:41:23 PM
Quote
walibe wrote:
I think your in for a suprise when it lands on your desk - OS 5.0 is the biggy. Development will go ahead due to the sheer number of e-mails I've had (and Oliver has had) asking for us to continue with this project. The AMIGA community has spoken, paticuarly on ANN. Now AMIGA One is great and I'll order one, along with OS 4.0 but it ain't be great to begin with, I'm beginning to wonder just how far OS 4.0 is, but it will be great when we see it huh. I think AROS is great though, why AMIGA Inc just didn't have those guys move it I will never know.
Who do you think your replying too? Take a closer look at that nick name. "HyperionMP"!! Correct me if im wrong, but thats just one of Hyperions (OS4 Builders) public access names.
So, as they say, those comments are unfounded and are of your opinion only!
My opinion is that these guys have been doing a lot of work and personaly, if it wasnt any different to OS3.9 would that be a bad thing? Its going to run a lot faster then it will on your machine. No that i have anything against your machine, i just feel sorry for you if you expect to be able to market this outside the Amiga Community. Your acting as if its a compeditor to the A1? Its not, and i say this because people realise where OS4 is headed. Thats PPC and ultimatly but not confirmed, "platform independence", to some degree! Its also expected to be merged with the DE, and so, a merger of two communities will be formed!
Quote
Also some AMIGA users have raised some very valid points - Do you think the AMIGA One is AMIGA Incs priority? Nope - they arn't developing the board and they certainly arn't nmoving the OS. Quite rightfully they are dealing with the AMIGA De which is great and has caused some stir amongst the general world but our AMIGA One hasn't really. Now I understand all you AMIGA One supporters, myself and Oliver like it too but don't want to see the classic AMIGA die, we want to see it grow and thrive and so do most of you guys.
Amiga Inc have a HUGE interest in the AmigaOne and other competing products that shall run AmigaOS4 and future products. This has been shown by Amiga Incs latest announcement in which they described their copyprotection that shall be writen into these boards and OS4. This is a commitment to the future platforms of AmigaOS4.
Lastly, this sounds like a great idea. I have nothing against it, for i believe those people wishing for a faster and more update and complete calssic system will finaly be able to get one. I for one have been considering getting a classic Machine to play with OS3.1 and some open source technolgoies and also to play some old games.
As i see it, and this is only my opinion, but i dont see any other market for your hardware then the one ive listed above, i hope your not too upset when you dont sell a heap of boards outside of the classic amiga. Just incase you wonder why im talking as if you think your aiming these boards outside the amiga market, ill tell you thats becase you seem to be implying that this machine is an alternative.
Well, it may be an laternative ONLY if these boards are compatible with the PCI accelerators comming out, even then, i wouldnt expect too many people to buy your bourd for that reason (although i might).
I say that because most people who are buying accelerators already have the A1200 so why by another prolly fairly expansive machine to run AOS4 when the A1 will be totaly cabable of that?
I may buy your board becase i want a classic machine, i hope you go through with your project, but surly, this is mainly marketed at JUST the Current Community right, and those that have been here before!?!?!?
Post by: jdiffend on April 19, 2002, 12:50:24 PM
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Every year or so somone pops up with a Coldfire Accelerator that uses 4 Coldfires, and is super great etc.
The V4 core is the first one really capable of working and it hasn't been out that long. Keep in mind hardware development requires a lot of know how and any decent design sofware is rediculously expensive.
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Everytime, it is ridiculed by people who know its virtually impossible.
Most of the people I've heard talk about it have done little if any research, don't have the proper training or background and are generally without a clue. It is very possible... any chip prior to V4 would have been a nightmare to do it with. The current project these guys are undertaking sounds feasable but they need to do some more homework before they get too far.
As for nothing ever happens... nobody is thrilled with working two jobs... one of which you make no money.
A project like this would take a couple months. I've personally worked on an embedded system that was designed, built, and all software was written for it in just over 6 months. But it took one EE and three Software Engineers to do it. Hardware, case, powersupply, OS and GUI all from scratch. The funny thing is that now that could be done with less people and in less time. A Coldfire and DIMMS would replace over 75% of the chips in that system including a 68020 a DSP, ZIPs and I/O chips... and it would be faster.
My project requires protected memory, USB, and 10/100 ethernet... the first 4e coldfire part supposedly has this... but it's over a year late! Without that part I really can't do what I want with the Coldfire so to me it's not worth building. Now I'm looking for alternatives.
Post by: System on April 19, 2002, 01:23:22 PM
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The V4 core is the first one really capable of working and it hasn't been out that long.
The V4e is the new core that might implement dual stack pointers, which will be necessary to run Amiga OS on this accelerator.
The V4e core has been announced, no part actually exists which implements the technology. The V4e core is vapour itself you see.
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Most of the people I've heard talk about it have done little if any research, don't have the proper training or background and are generally without a clue. It is very possible... any chip prior to V4 would have been a nightmare to do it with. The current project these guys are undertaking sounds feasable but they need to do some more homework before they get too far.
Dave Haynie has posted on it I consider him to have a little bit of knowledge on the subject.
These people seem to have very little knowledge, some of their claims are wildly innacurate.
Their whole plan is ill concieved. Its like they were taking this degree in computer studys and discovered that Motorola still sells a chip similar to the 68k, and thought it would be a great idea to create an Amiga accelerator on these lines.
I dunno maybe I'm wrong and they've done plenty of computer hardware design and manufacture.
And I suppose Amiga fanatics are entirely within their rights to get all excited about nothing, and then to be disapointed when it doesn't pan out.
I'd be more inclined to believe in them if they didn't start saying slanderous things about Amiga and its OS4.0 plans, etc. when they obviously know nothing about it.
Its a nice idea for a project but its a stupid idea for anything else. And if it is just a project why would it be posted all over the Amiga news sites, like its some legitimate thing?
It says to me, "hey were a bunch of guys that want to take you for a ride"
Its the new Iwin, listen to our new super wonder machine, it'll revolutionise the Amiga... etc.
At least thats my point of view.
Post by: Jose on April 19, 2002, 01:24:21 PM
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 01:33:35 PM
He states some (unfortunate) problems with this enthusiastic
project..
He posted a whole series of posts on ANN:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1019068405&category=unmoderated&71
.
SlimJim
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 04:41:36 PM
I will buy the Amiga that runs the Flyer.
Manbot
manbot@indy.net
Post by: Dr_Righteous on April 19, 2002, 08:42:32 PM
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 09:01:55 PM
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Dave Hayne seems to support your view on incopability.
Dang... I totally forgot that the supervisor stack pointer doesn't show up until the 4e core (if in fact it will). I think Dave pointed out the lack of a supervisor stack pointer to me when I looked at it.
See what happens when you don't look at this stuff for months. Give it up and wait for 4e guys! (I really wish I had saved the stuff I posted last year...) That was the reason I decided to wait for 4e originally... I just wanted USB, 10/100 etc for what I wanted to do. I actually thought of building a proto board that used a CPU card slot so I could start with a 5407 and replace it with the 4e on a card later.
BTW, somebody commented something like *now Motorola has a ROM that offers 100% compatibility". Uh... no. Same emulation stuff I saw when I looked at doing this. This would be programmed into ROM (probably FLASH) but at the very least you would have to force the startup vector to point to the new ROM instead of the standard one because the addon ROM idea they talk about won't work for the reason I posted.
The emulation startup code must be run before any unimplimented instructions get used.
The Motorola literature talks about using a combination of emulation, the conversion utility and some hand intervention to run everything. That doesn't sound like 100% compatibility to me.
As for AA or AAA... I suggested going with PCI graphics and sound cards and emulate older chips with code from UAE.
These guys could work on logic to hook to the accel ports of existing migies and hope the 4e hits this quarter. Most of the Coldfire pin names they will need should stay the same. Look at Motorola doc titled Family Overview & Technology Overview. (cfprodfact.pdf) The first 4e part on the timeline will include multiprocessing and it is way faster than the 5407 anyway. The most interesting thing to me is that it closely follows the 5249 which has already been released.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 09:20:06 PM
Oh and I'm quiet cause I'm working on it - not because I've dropped the idea.
If needed parts of AROS can be used with the emulation layer running in software solving alot of problems but my work around could solve this.
I doubt anyone from our project said a ROM existed which offered 100% compatability, nothings 100% compatible in this world - knock us all you like, we will succeed in one way or another. You can't just dump something because someoen says you can't do it straight up - everything has a work around. Just more people trying to kill our project - if anyones serious in helping in this project who hasn't already e-mailed me then do so. Haynies point (which was damned obvious but overlooked) is valid - its great stuff and its all true.
Everything has a work around - yeah we could wait for the 4e - but how longs that going to take - Motorolas hardly reliable at all!
PJ Matthews
Post by: Chathurawind on April 19, 2002, 11:08:18 PM
Idiot
Post by: System on April 20, 2002, 06:28:43 AM
Post by: Chathurawind on April 20, 2002, 01:34:04 PM
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What the hell??? READ THE V4 DOCS - IT HAS A SUPERVISOR STACK POINTER!!!
Idiot
Bring up the V4 user manual (MCF5407UM.pdf)... look at the supervisor registers part of the diagram on page 74.
Then bring up the V4e user manual (V4ECFUM.pdf) and look at the diagram on page 56.
Notice anything different? I'll give you a hint... OTHER_A7 Supervisor A7 Stack Pointer isn't on the 5407. Now look at the supervisor programming model of any standard 68K part.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 20, 2002, 08:20:53 PM
PJ Matthews
Post by: Chathurawind on April 21, 2002, 12:51:27 AM
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That isn't presently an issue for us - I'll explain later.
If you replace the Exec I don't think it's a problem... if you just install the emulation libs and jump into the current exec it becomes an issue.
Post by: Chathurawind on April 21, 2002, 12:53:04 AM
Please join the group if your at all interested in this project.
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Thanks
Oliver Hannaford-Day
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www.cdtv.org.uk/coldfire/