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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Software News => Topic started by: Kees on April 03, 2002, 12:04:14 AM
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"There has been a considerable amount of discussion and speculation about the future of Amithlon on Amiga news sites as well as on the Amithlon mailing list recently ...
In the early hours of March 9th, Melbourne time, I received an email from Amiga Inc, In which Amiga Inc informed me that they considered the distribution of AmigaOS XL to be in violation of their intellectual property rights and thusillegal ... "
Read more (http://www.amithlon.net/en/amithlon_statement.txt) about this at Bernd Meyer's Amithlon site (http://www.amithlon.net/en/).
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(repost of my comment on ANN, this has been a fuzzy issue in my mind for some time now)
Woah woah woah, back this truck up... Exactly who is it that owns Amiga Technologies anyway? I was under the impression that Gateway still owned all the patents, and granted licenses to Amino Inc, who subsequently created Amiga Inc. to utilize those licenses. Please, feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.
Either way, WOW, this is NUTS!
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i really dont like this :(
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I got the same message from the Amiga Boys to!
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I hope H&P does the right thing here. Bernie doesnt derserve this crap :evil: :evil:
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In a first statement on amiga-news.de Juergen
Haage said that H&P was in negotiations with
Amiga Inc. for many month but they never
came to an agreement.
For him it looks like they (Amiga) have done
this action to make pressure on H&P to force
them to sign inacceptable current contracts.
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I have always personally seen XL (and amithlon) as a burst artery, bleeding the Amiga to death. But even I am taken aback at this action. Ainc have recognised the threat this emulator poses, and have acted to stem it in a cynical and ruthless - if very effective - way. Or perhaps I'm just reading too deep into this. But that's certainly what it looks like.
The ethics of this are very questionable. In fact, it is a very dirty trick. But such things are common in the business world, and I will leave it to the reader's discretion as to whether it can be justified.
Just think about this: all I know is that this will be good for the sales of remaining amiga hardware and sofware. But perhaps the price of this success is too high. I can only begin to anticipate the anger of XL users.
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Hi Kenny
No i don't think this will do any good to A1/AOS4 sales.
Many Amithlon-users (like me) are considering AOS4 even
just for its geek-factor, or because they think AOS4 will be
a step ahead.
After this dirty trick (if it is one) i'm not prepared tp spend a single
Cent on AInc-licences. I don't think i'm alone on this.
Even non-Amithlon-users and PPC-fans might reconsider.
The only winners will be AROS/MorphOS or even Windows.
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I don't feel that any dirty trick has been played by Amiga Inc.
The dirty trick is by H&P, They broke the law when they sent out the very first copy without a signed contract from Amiga giving them the lic to use their software.
Loki
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From what I have read, this is very underhanded.
Now, regardless of what we think of Amithlon - I find it intolerable that companies act this way. Bernd has asked H&P to stop distrubution, - invoking a contract clause - and they ignore him. If he does get sued, he could probably counter sue because of this - and all the mental, physicall, life, health stiff etc.
Amiga are also being heavy, when you take into account that it wasn't that long ago when they were banging Amithlons drum, and announcing it as AmigaOS for X86. Surely they can be big, and come to some arrangement with H&P. H&P should come to some arrangement with Bernd. even if its a case of saying your only allowed to distrubte a further x number of copies.
In some ways this whole Amithlon thing, is a bit of a Pandoras box - best left closed.
Going back to Dr Rightouse - like him, I was also under the impression that Amiga Inc was licensing technologies from Gateway. Could somebody in the know inform us as to who owns what? It could prove real sticky in the future to find that Gateway actually own the name Amiga - and we can no longer use it!
Cheers
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This is true - but Amiga helped promote it! H&P did wrong. In fact din't H&P allegedly distribute stuff with OS3.5 that they hadnt payed licenses for? If this is the case then maybe they should be grilled - you can do it once, and pass it off as an accident - but twice? hmmmmm. There is a consistency here...
I cant help but think that the real victim in this is Mr Meyer. Roll on Amiga One...
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This is indeed sad news. I hope Bernie does not get burned after he put in so much effort.
I was anticipating a future where I could choose to express the Amiga experience on any platform of my choice :-D
Amithlon or AmigaXL on X86
AmigaOS4 on PPC platforms such as AmigaOne
AmigaAnywhere on Windows or Linux
AmigaAnywhere on PDA, cell phones, etc
AmigaOS 3.1 on my trusty old Amiga 2000HD :-)
Even QNX realtime platorm V6 by itself is really neat once get it installed and working....
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IIRC, Gatway own the Amiga patents and Amiga own the OS and inventory
(and a license to use the patents). H&P own 3.5 and 3.9 since they
were produced under license, not under contract. I suspect the problem
is that they didn't pay Amiga to use the 3.1 ROM image in the AmigaXL
package.
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Whichever way you look at it, having read the posting Bernie made, you cannot lay the blame on Amiga Inc for defending their intelluctual property rights. It would seem that from Bernie's statement that he was under the impression the distribution of Amithalon/Amiga OS XL was cleared with AI (a point he repeats many times), and that after receiving the email from AI, he had clarified with H+P that this was indeed not the case. As such he asked for distribution of Amithalon to cease, which so far has been ignored. Therefore, the problem lies with H+P and not AI.
To start making it into an Aminthalon vs OS4 war is silly, just as some of the comments like "I won't be spending a cent on blah blah blah". Those people making those comments obviously didn't pay too much attention to what Bernie said. It is simply an intelluctual property problem, and once resolved, legal sale of Amithalon/AmigaOS XL would resume.
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I totally agree _Steve_...
Btw is it just me who have troubles with quote?? Often the Quote button is just missing... Or am i doing something wrong??
kinda annoying
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The OS isn't the issue here... The ROMs are. Escom AG owned, via US copyright, the Amiga Kickstart ROMs. What's in question here is whether Gateway or Amino Corp/Amiga Inc. owns that copyright.
If AI doesn't own the copyright, they can't make IP complaints. Gateway Inc. would have to do it.
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If AI doesn't own the copyright, they can't make IP complaints. Gateway Inc. would have to do it.
Patents and copyright are not the same thing. Gateway own all patents, but Amiga Inc have bough the IP, which includes copyright to the OS, assuming Gateway owned that in the first place.
Also, copyright law is international law, and thus not dictated by US copyright law.
However, AI's ownership of Kickstart 3.1 rights is not in question. It seems that H&P and AI have simply been unable to reach an agreement. BOTH are guilty for allowing AmigaOS XL to be distributed without such an agreement being signed in the first place.
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It is simply an intelluctual property problem, and once resolved, legal sale of Amithalon/AmigaOS XL would resume.
It might not be that simple. By ingoring Bernie's request that they should cease distribution of AmigaOS XL, H&P are in breach of the contract they signed with him. Bernie may want to think long and hard before he agrees to let H&P resume distribution of his product. It's not like they've done a sterling job of it after all. :-(
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It might not be that simple. By ingoring Bernie's request that they should cease distribution of AmigaOS XL, H&P are in breach of the contract they signed with him. Bernie may want to think long and hard before he agrees to let H&P resume distribution of his product. It's not like they've done a sterling job of it after all.
It is true that the continued sale is illegal, and that the matter may take some time to resolve, but once the IP problem has been sorted, nothing stops Bernie seeking a different retailer for his product, seeing as he is having big issues with H+P, who (as you said) clearly are ignoring the contract they made with him. Things like this don't serve to give them a good public image all, and will undoubtedly lead to their having reduced software sales and/or demise.
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The fact you'd support MorphOS/Windows over it really says it all. And you are forgetting that AInc had every right in the world to do what they have done. Its *their* property, like it or not. Any other company with IP would do no different. The only company which did the dirty was H&P for misleading Bernie on the state of the license. AInc never lied to Bernie about it, only H&P did. So before you start pointing the finger get your facts straight.
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Patents and copyright are not the same thing. Gateway own all patents, but Amiga Inc have bough the IP, which includes copyright to the OS, assuming Gateway owned that in the first place.
Show me where it says AI bought anything from Gateway.
However, AI's ownership of Kickstart 3.1 rights is not in question. It seems that H&P and AI have simply been unable to reach an agreement. BOTH are guilty for allowing AmigaOS XL to be distributed without such an agreement being signed in the first place.
They are in question, because I question it. It's a pivotal point to AI's argument. There is nothing listed in the Library of Congress that says Amiga Inc. owns Kickstart. In fact, it says Escom AG owns it still.
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Hi,
To my knownledge Amiga Inc bought all the rights (really everything) from Gateway. Except the stuff that was done by Gateway, whatever that might be.
COder
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Does it really matter who is to blame?
When Bernie is the one who is getting all the $#@!?
What we should be asking is why, if the freelance programmer is so important to the Amiga's survival, do the bigs boys keep bumping them up?
Will Bernie stay with the Amiga? Have we lost yet another brilliant programmer due to avarice?
One of THE most important programs, whether you like/use it or not (I don't use it but see it as a great piece of software), to be made for the Amiga in years is now in legal wrangles...
I dispair when I see this.
Other eyes are now turning onto this community...i.e. The Register et al...should we be in fighting?
Anyhow hope everyone had a good Easter (if you celebrate it that is) :-D
Allen
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Im confused, wasnt Bill all excited about this? - That is, i remember him says "wow, now we have AMIGAOS X86" <--- excited tone!
What a backflip, plus, the rom images and/or OS that comes with the package provide royalities to AmigaInc dont they?
That is, when you buy AmigaOS3.9, some of that goes to Amiga Inc right? - Well, shouldnt it?
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Is this true Loki?... Hrmm im confused over who OS3.9 belongs too... H&P developed 3.5 and 3.9, buuut, who gave them the right to do that? And, does that right, continue into AmigaOSXL? - I wouldnt think so, that would be a seperate contract. - If Amiga Inc was to get royalities from this, i beleive they wouldhave anything to winge about....
But, on the Ownership thing, can anyone help? Whats the deal? Who gave H&P to develop )s3.9 in the first place? Do they have a right to keep distributing it on x86 hardware? etc...
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I have always personally seen XL (and amithlon) as a burst artery, bleeding the Amiga to death
IMHO i dont agree, Amiga inc. should be making some money from it too through licensing and its no threat until os5 or whetever that runs on all kinds of hardware.
XL is more about maintaining a userbase until something better is available
Just think about this: all I know is that this will be good for the sales of remaining amiga hardware and sofware. But perhaps the price of this success is too high. I can only begin to anticipate the anger of XL users.
what amiga hardware? honestly, if my (expanded)1200 dies it would be too expesive to get a decent amiga system back, never mind that a 060 or ppc is almost impossible to get (new). and is still slow compared to pc hardware + amigaXL.
Since i bought AmigaXl and installed it , i have started to really use photogenics,arteffect soundFx and am willing to buy (and have) new software for AmigaOs.
My Xl workbench (http://home.hetnet.nl/~richardmtechrat/wb39xl.jpg)
:-)
If AmigaXl is no longer develloped/sold i (and others) would eventually switch to another os and may not come back even if the A-1 is finally released.
I would really like Amithlon to be further develloped and hope this issue is resolved soon!
This is one piece of software that is very good and should not dissapear.
Seperating the rom images from the cd could be an option but not a very nice one.
Its just cool to show people with a pc a Amiga by just popping in the cd :-D
Richard Mulder
aka Weasel, Techrat
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I would like to state that, when the Amithlon distribution contract was
agreed upon, I was led to believe that Haage & Partner had secured the
required licenses to Amiga Inc's IP. In fact, being able to provide
such licenses was the main, if not the only reason H&P was chosen as the
distribution partner. Until I was informed by Amiga Inc of their different
view of the situation, I had no doubt that Amithlon, as distributed as
part of AmigaOS XL, was a fully licensed product.
Having read the article, Amiga Inc dont seem like the bad guys. Infact, Amiga Inc have been working with Amithlon developer to settler the dispute. Looks like H&P are the bad guys in all this!
Bernie seems like a great coder, maybe Amiga Inc could purchase some of his stuff for their JIT? Or atleast, his skills for the JIT - code prollwouldnt be much use :}.
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Cloanto could take over the distribution of Amithlon and Amiga XL as the "new" version for "Amiga Forever" product.
Cloanto does have the license rights for Amiga Rom and AmigaOS related products.
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This is bad news - our little community cannot afford such infighting between people who should be working together. I hope Amiga are going to be realistic about sorting a deal without getting all strong-arm about it.
Just out of curiousity, where does that leave WinUAE - doesn't that effectively contain certain aspects of the Amiga IP in it in order to operate?
Here's to supporting Bernie.
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@Cyberwlf
Hey - I put it in thread mode and saw that you linked to me.
I didnt once say anything about MOS or Windows - I dindn't once say that I was a fan of either products. My post was about fair play - about Ethics.
I'm fully behind A1 and AmigaOS4. I'm just saying that I feel Bernd is the real victim. H&P are ignoring him, and the impression that I got was that Amiga were cool with Amithlon, as they had publically voiced support for it! Therefor, I can see how Bernie had come to the conclusion that interlectual property rights had been sorted. So your right, Ainc have every right to do what they have done - but it does seem a little carrot and stick to me.
I dont even own Amithlon - have no want or need to buy it. I'm just looking at the little guy in this.
If you read my other post you'll see that I think Bernie is the victim in all of this, and I also speculated as to this being the second case of intelectual property infingement by H&P. I also wanted clarification as to who owned what!
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Ok, I got it figured out now... Seems the only person who knows anything about anything these days is Ben Hermans.
AI is under perpetual use license for the Amiga patents.
AI is the exclusive copyright holder to the AmigaOS.
Part of the OS is contained in the Kickstart ROMs.
Thus, AI owns the ROMs.
Which leads us right back to, WOW! THIS IS MESSED UP!
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Things may look a bit more bright when AOS4 is released. Then Amiga Inc actually own the ROM and the OS and the ownership matter is history.
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There is unfortunatly no AmigaOS 3.5 or 3.9 running on my Amiga2000. But I would like to know what the workbench menu "Version, copyright" tells about the copyrights (Kickstart, Workbench) on these versions. Can anyone give me an answer?
And what about this point on Amithlon?
May be that the answer will help to clear some theories.
Thanks...
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My version of OS3.9 is from Amithlon/OSXL, and it comes up as Copyright 1985-2000 Amiga Inc.
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On my BB2 3.9 it says something like copyright 1985 - 2002, Amiga Inc. That's from memory though, so the exact words might be a tad different.
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You are not a legal expert that is planly obvious.
There is such a thing as US copyright law and it dictates what happens to copyrights obtained in the US.
There is no such thing an International copyright per se.
There are agreements and treaties between the various countries of the world, that basically say you enforce my country copyright law and I will enforce your copyright law.
Do NOT pretend to be an expert when you are not an expert! :-?
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But Copyrite law is such that it is posiible to enforce your copyrite in other countries. In the UK if I was to write a book, or create some music etc.. - I'd own the copyrite automatically - and then for a further x (50 - or 70, I cant remember) amount of years after my death. Likewise - under UK law, with patents - these have to be paid for. The guy that created the Dyson vacumm cleaner, at one stage couldnt keep up patent costs - and thus people were free to effectivly pinch his idea.
In the US its different - hence Shrek had loads of Disney characters in it.
Now - under European rulling copyrite stands across the board - they have a deal with the US - so effectivly you do have international copyrite law - or at least, recognition of another persons copyrite.
The only places where copyrite seems to be consistently ignored, or breaking it is accepted is in places like Thailand - where they have been known to broadcast the latest film releases on the TV network!
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I think it is a shame that Bernd is the one who is going to end up with a large lawsuite on his head.
At the end of the day I don't care who owns the IP or whatever for (i assume) the kickstart roms. From the evidence it would seem that H&P have:
A) Mislead Bernd and,
B) Broken the contract they signed with him.
This isn't about Amiga INC or IP or copyright, it is about a large(?) company, H&P, abusing the rights that they have been given by Bernd, for misleading him, and by not withdrawing HIS product from sale, putting him into a very stressful situation which could risk his proffessional career and heavy financial cost.
As some one said, we don't need this in-fighting.
I hope for Bernd's sake things go in his favor.
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I think the best thing for true Amiga diehards to do is to treat all these fighting parties like children: "I don't care who hit who first, you're going to have to all get along, OR ELSE."
We, the real Amiga base, lose whenever these suits start wars with each other. The best thing for us to do, is to express equal displeasure to all of them, and tell them all to just give up a few inches in an effort to save the ship.
BTW, Gateway owns the hardware patents (they're not dummies), and IIRC the "software patents" (a stupid US notion if I ever heard one). Amino/Amiga ostensibly owns the OS and WB from 3.1 and earlier.
However, I've seen an article that says a German court ruled that in the Escom-to-Gateway sale (which took place under German jurisdiction), Escom never actually sold the OS rights to Gateway (possibly becase Escom may have never had clear title to it - not sure, the translation is rough). It is possible that technically, the OS may be in legal limbo which would make this current spat moot.
I'm no fan of Amiga Inc's turning the Amiga into a generic Mac-like off--the-shelf box of parts... hence I haven't been following everything real closey. So if anybody could point (URL) me to statements from all concerned parties, I'd appreciate it.
But I seem to recall the Amithlon is just an AMD-enhanced UAE, and that AmigaOS/XL is QNX with an abstraction layer to redirect AmigaOS calls to analagous QNX routines (and supply AmigaOS-compatible routines where analagous routines don't exist in QNX).
I also seem to clearly recall that Bill and Fleecy were heralding Amithlon and AmigaOS-XL as GREAT things.
It seems to me the underpinning of so many of these OS-ownership/license spats come out of both legitimate concern for control of their respective work/products, the AmigaOS (Amiga Inc has abandoned true Amiga hardware, not to mention featuresets), greed, fear, uncertainty but ALSO a lack of understanding about the absurd technology IP laws (WIPO is insane) as they differ from ethical expectations-- in other words, what IS vs. what SHOULD be law. The fact that differing countries come into play really makes this more complicated (ironically, WIPO could actually expedite a resolution if worse came to worse- although it could easily be the *wrong* solution). Sad to say but the Amiga (such as the brand name persists) is once again being bettered about by legal confusion * international differences in said law. Since all parties have valid concerns, they should all just GROW UP and try to work together.
If these guys can't sort things out, we, the long-suffering users, lose out. Go tell them. If we can't get all sides to give in just a little, there'll be no amicable resolution.
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Maybe it's not too hard to think of a solution?
Cough...AROS...Cough...
cough, cough...damn that nasty cold I've got...