Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: jj on April 17, 2009, 10:30:15 AM
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Linkey (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8003799.stm)
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{bleep} sake
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Piratebay isn't going anywhere.
http://trial.thepiratebay.org/2009/04/15/press-conference-of-friday/
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Wow! This is crazy.
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Like they say on their site.
It's not over, they will appeal. This conviction however sets the tone for the rest of the debate. So yes, it's a defeat. However not a definitive one.
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amazing... I still can't beleive why having information about where the files can be found, and not the actual files can be illegal.
Worst case scenario, this could lead to people getting sentenced for having information only??
But IFPI apparently have to much power..
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Press conference http://thepiratebay.org/special/2009epicwinanyhow.php (http://thepiratebay.org/special/2009epicwinanyhow.php)
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I wonder how closely Google is watching this.
I mean that's where I find all my torrents.
(Legal ones of course, but I'm sure they link to all the others ;-) )
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It is the same old song that got Napster in a bind. At least that guy figured out a middle of the road fix and is still in busness. These guys are acting like they are completely free of guilt when they have "aiding and abeting" written all over their faces...
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In Napster it was supposed to be the user's responsibility to choose what to share, so it was just a matter of big groups of interest manipulating things. This is probably less legal than Napster.
Then again, every ISP is advertising unlimited downloads & all for everyone, the laws of some european countries even provide for a fee for blanks CD/DVDs because of the illegal downloads. Funnly things is that they probably won't take off those fees even though they continue to go after the places to get information about the downloads...
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yssing wrote:
amazing... I still can't beleive why having information about where the files can be found, and not the actual files can be illegal.
Worst case scenario, this could lead to people getting sentenced for having information only??
But IFPI apparently have to much power..
But isn't this a little like being the intermediary between the "buyer" and "seller" of illegal or stolen equipment, without ever taking possession of the illegal equipment. The intermediary would be guilty too in that case, yes?
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Ah, the redistribution of wealth from some Swedish kids to needy American Corporations. How else are American corporations who didn't take part in wrecking the economy going to get a handout?
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They deserve one year of can for not having ratios at TPB :)
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persia wrote:
Ah, the redistribution of wealth from some Swedish kids to needy American Corporations. How else are American corporations who didn't take part in wrecking the economy going to get a handout?
Well the penalty did not fit the crime. Rather excessive, but such is expected from a communist country, right? ;-)
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The world is slowly becoming Orwellian.
I can't *WAIT* for the Thought Police. :roll:
"If you feel you are not properly sedated, call immediately. Failure to do so may result in prosecution for criminal, drug evasion".
You know, I wonder what record companies would do, if someone were to file a class action suit for fraud and price gouging against them? It's a known fact that several musicians, one of them being Nine Inch Nails, actively supported the pirating of their music, due to obscene prices charged by record companies.
The average CD costs 20$ now. Multiply that by 200 CDs (I had more, but lost them over the years). That's 4 grand. Multiply that by 100,000 consumers, complaining. That's 400$ million.
Band's rarely get a share of the CD sales. They make their money, from touring, most of which is at their own expense. It's hard to make money touring, unless you're packing big stadiums. Record companies rarely see any of that. On top of that, if a band's freshman album is lackluster in the eyes of the record company, they're immediately dropped. That's why you have all this carbon copy bullsh!t out on the radio. It's all corporate musicians.
The rich just get richer on the backs of the poor.
A shame.
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C'mon guys we ALL know what that site is ALL about.
And if they provide the hardware and advertise openly about it then they are actively facilitating the crime being executed. Its got nothing to do with combating exploitation of the poor and civil freedoms being suppressed (or the freedom of the artists to keep the rewards of their music)
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stefcep2 wrote:
C'mon guys we ALL know what that site is ALL about.
And if they provide the hardware and advertise openly about it then they are actively facilitating the crime being executed. Its got nothing to do with combating exploitation of the poor and civil freedoms being suppressed (or the freedom of the artists to keep the rewards of their music)
QFT.
It really irritates me when people drag up Orwell and start whinging about civil liberties when the individuals in questions were arrested for something WHICH IS ILLEGAL. If you actually read Orwell (and really read it properly), you will find that the society he described is not about prosecuting the guilty, it is about controlling the innocent. That's completely different to what's happening here.
Ok, nobody likes big record or film companies making millions, and nobody likes the fact that these industries are so commercialised that it's practically impossible for indies to be successful. But that doesn't change the fact that copyright theft is illegal.
Also, I fail to see how piracy helps artists to get a larger cut of CD sales, so don't really know why the big chunk taken by the label is used as justification for illegally distributing others' work.
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
QFT.
It really irritates me when people drag up Orwell and start whinging about civil liberties when the individuals in questions were arrested for something WHICH IS ILLEGAL.
*I* brought it up. Consequently, from a legal standpoint, they did nothing wrong. At most, they should have been issued a cease-and-desist from the parent companies. If the RIAA is going to sue them for millions, they'd better go after a) every ISP that's connected globally and b)CERN for creating the World Wide Web. After all, if they hadn't created it, in the first place, there would have been no Napster, WinMX, Limewire, PirateBay, and so many others.
If you actually read Orwell (and really read it properly), you will find that the society he described is not about prosecuting the guilty, it is about controlling the innocent. That's completely different to what's happening here.
Actually, what's happening here is a perfect example of absolute power and control. The record companies would spend in excess of what they were "awarded" just to achieve "victory". When you have money, you win court cases. It's that simple and it's like that, all over the world. If they wanted to and needed to, they could tie up litigation for years. Look at the first OJ Simpson trial. Hell, look at Hyperion VS. Amiga, Inc. ;) All court systems, regardless of the country are similar and *ALL* are guilty of being corrupted.
Ok, nobody likes big record or film companies making millions, and nobody likes the fact that these industries are so commercialised that it's practically impossible for indies to be successful.
No one has also tried to stop them. I work in the film/game industry. I've also worked in the music industry. Trust me, those execs are more concerned about their posh houses and having five cars in the driveway, etc., than "promoting" art.
Indies *ARE* becoming successful, albeit slowly, 'cos bands are tired of dealing with record companies. Once again, I go back to Trent Reznor, who left Nothing Records, his own label, 'cos he was tired of Interscope. He told Australians to pirate his last DVD release, as it was priced at 80AUD, which is preposterous. He was also burned by TVT Records. Many bands are leaving record companies and going solo, 'cos it's the only way for them to a) make their music cheap and accessible to the masses and b) to actually make money off the presses.
But that doesn't change the fact that copyright theft is illegal.
So are Monopolies, but Microsoft is still around. It's all about money and who has it. 'Nuff said.
Also, I fail to see how piracy helps artists to get a larger cut of CD sales, so don't really know why the big chunk taken by the label is used as justification for illegally distributing others' work.
Okay, I apparently didn't make myself clear on this one. Record Companies get 99.98% of record sales. Unless, of course, you're Metallicops, who maybe get 2$ per CD sale, but those frakkers are already rich, no better than the record execs and are the one's who started this whole thing in the first place.The average band pulls 25 CENTS per CD sale. So, that means on average, 19.75$ goes to record companies for "printing and distribution costs". Bands make money, solely from touring.
Here's the caveat. When buying presses, en masse, the average cost of a CD is around a NICKEL, including inlays. In addition, most record companies own their own publishing houses, who do the art and promotion of CDs, in house. To compound that, most consumer businesses, such as Best Buy and FYE, have to *BUY* licenses for the right to sell the CDs/DVDs in stores. That means, they have to pay for the right to sell say an Island, Sire or Warner Bros. album or movie.
Yeah, they're *REALLY* hurting for money...... :roll:
You want to support a band, go pay 50$ to buy a ticket. Odds are, the record company *LOANED* them money to go on tour.
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Methuselas wrote:
*I* brought it up.
I know, my comments weren't directed at stefcep2. They weren't even fully directed at you. I was trying to make a more general comment about the current trend in describing our society as "Orwellian" when really I don't feel it is anything of the sort.
Methuselas wrote:
Consequently, from a legal standpoint, they did nothing wrong. At most, they should have been issued a cease-and-desist from the parent companies.
ISTR seeing an interview with the founders of TPB in which they stated that they have ignored requests to cease and desist.
Methuselas wrote:
If the RIAA is going to sue them for millions, they'd better go after a) every ISP that's connected globally and b)CERN for creating the World Wide Web. After all, if they hadn't created it, in the first place, there would have been no Napster, WinMX, Limewire, PirateBay, and so many others.
Yeah, and lets sue the people who build roads because they are responsible for people speeding :roll:
Methuselas wrote:
Actually, what's happening here is a perfect example of absolute power and control.
... over their property. I don't see why people have such a problem with that.
Methuselas wrote:
The record companies would spend in excess of what they were "awarded" just to achieve "victory".
How they spend their money is their business. The amount it costs compared to the amount they are awarded bears no relevance to the legality of TPB.
Methuselas wrote:
No one has also tried to stop them. I work in the film/game industry. I've also worked in the music industry. Trust me, those execs are more concerned about their posh houses and having five cars in the driveway, etc., than "promoting" art.
Again, I don't see what relevance this has to the legality of TPB.
Methuselas wrote:
Indies *ARE* becoming successful, albeit slowly, 'cos bands are tired of dealing with record companies.
Fine, and that's their decision. But for the ones who chose to sign a contract with a label, presumably they knew the cut they would get when they agreed to the contract, and they know the degree of ownership the label would have of the material. If they sign the rights over to the label, then the label is justified in seeking justice if the material is distributed illegally.
But that doesn't change the fact that copyright theft is illegal.
So are Monopolies, but Microsoft is still around.[/quote]
Yes, sometimes illegal activity goes unpunished.
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moto
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So are Monopolies, but Microsoft is still around
In what way is Microsoft a monopoly? People can install any OS they want, you don't have to use Windows. You also have a choice to buy any other console than Microsoft's. Its not Microsoft's fault their competition has nothing better to offer.
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hooligan wrote:
Its not Microsoft's fault their competition has nothing better to offer.
Or you are jocking or you are a complete ignorant :-?
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hooligan wrote:
So are Monopolies, but Microsoft is still around
In what way is Microsoft a monopoly? People can install any OS they want, you don't have to use Windows. You also have a choice to buy any other console than Microsoft's. Its not Microsoft's fault their competition has nothing better to offer.
While I don't fully agree that "their competition has nothing better to offer," you're certainly correct about there being many alternatives to MS Windows. Even if they were to have a virtual monopoly, who cares? Let anyone -- and there are some huge companies with deep pockets -- try to come up with something to compete with it. Same can be said about eBay. I don't care that they have a monopoly. They crushed "fair and square" the Yahoo.com, Overstock.com, etc. attempts at auctions. That's fine with me. If you don't like MS or eBay, simply don't use them, right?
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Fransexy_ wrote:
hooligan wrote:
Its not Microsoft's fault their competition has nothing better to offer.
Or you are jocking or you are a complete ignorant :-?
Given these two options, Ignorant then, I suppose
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If you don't like MS or eBay, simply don't use them, right?
My thoughts exactly. It's not like we're short of options, there's plenty to choose from.
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I know, my comments weren't directed at stefcep2. They weren't even fully directed at you. I was trying to make a more general comment about the current trend in describing our society as "Orwellian" when really I don't feel it is anything of the sort.
I never said they were. However, it's quite obvious that American is slowly becoming more and more like Oceania.
ISTR seeing an interview with the founders of TPB in which they stated that they have ignored requests to cease and desist.
And they were duly sued under the context of the laws. I never said that TPB was *RIGHT* in what they were doing. I was merely pointing out that record companies are purporting unjust actions, when they themselves are notorious for price gouging, putting bands in debt to the company, etc.
It goes both ways, Moto. That was my whole point. Two wrongs, don't make a right.
Yeah, and lets sue the people who build roads because they are responsible for people speeding :roll:
It was obvious my sarcasm was missed on you.
... over their property. I don't see why people have such a problem with that.
They typically do not *OWN* the songs, ie their "property". In fact, most record companies only have a *LICENSE* to resell and distribute. Most bands nowadays are smart enough to hold on to ownership of said songs. Some, however, such as the Beatles were not so lucky.....
How they spend their money is their business. The amount it costs compared to the amount they are awarded bears no relevance to the legality of TPB.
I never said it did. What I was saying is that record compaines are businesses in the business to make money. Plain and simple. If a band doesn't make money, they're dropped. Bands make money off of touring and merchandise sales, almost *NEVER* off of record sales. Note, few bands are raising an uproar over pirated music.
Record companies knew they would win, not because they were "right" (nor am I saying they were "wrong", either), but because they knew their pockets were deeper than the "forces" of TPB. Even if they lost, they have 28 appeals (something which is, in reality, atrocious that in of itself) to try again. They could spend millions or billions, if they chose. They don't care if it's tied up in litigation for years, 'cos they can just keep jacking up the prices to offset the lost. It's called commercialism.
Fine, and that's their decision. But for the ones who chose to sign a contract with a label, presumably they knew the cut they would get when they agreed to the contract, and they know the degree of ownership the label would have of the material. If they sign the rights over to the label, then the label is justified in seeking justice if the material is distributed illegally.
It's not that cut and dry, Moto. There's a lot of tricks that companies can pull in contracts to lessen the "cut" of the other party. They can claim that due to "gas prices increasing", a substantial amount of capital was lost in the manufacturing of CDs for the mass market, which drops the "cut" of the band, for example.
And they don't even have to give proof, as to "why"....
Yes, sometimes illegal activity goes unpunished.
Which, once again, returns to my point about how if you have money, you win court cases. If I'm suing you over something and I have a 100 million to spend and you have 10$, who do you think is going to win? Seriously.....
Or legal systems are no longer about blind justice. It's about who has the most money and who's hands are in who's pockets. If you've got the money, you can tie up litigation for years, until you find a judge who's sympathetic to your case, who will in turn, judge in favor of you. That's how the system works now.
I never said that TPB was right. My whole point was how frivilous the lawsuit was. These record companies will never get the money from the makers of TPB, 'cos they don't have it and quite frankly, will refuse to pay it. I don't agree with that, but at the same time, it doesn't matter if they do and the RIAA does, indeed, get TPB close, 'cos half a dozen other sites just like it will pop up.
Lastly, to all you ********who gave me *NEGATIVE* rep for and I'm quoting one of you, verbatim in toto:
" Rationalizing why it is okay to steal from some people does not make theft any less immoral."
I never *SAID* it was okay to steal from some people, *******! I was merely pointing out that this was just another example of corporations using money to exploit the legal system. The closest thing I even said to such a thing was relaying that Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails told his fans to pirate *HIS* music, feeling *THEY* were getting taken advantage of by the record companies. Never once in my posts did I ever say that it was "okay to use TPB to illegally download music you didn't pay for (sic)".
I know you're all thinking you're holier than thou, but you're not. Not a single person on this forum can say they haven't at least once pirated a game, software, music or anything for *ANY* type of computer system, console, etc and not be a hypocritical ******** and a liar.....
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Lastly, to all you ********who gave me *NEGATIVE* rep for and I'm quoting one of you
Anyone that wants to subtract reputation points because they disagree with someone's point of view, they can subtract from me. (How do you do that, by the way? I only see an add button.) I don't care one bit for the little counters next to my name.
EDIT: Also, there's nothing special about TPB. Everyone's pointed out and knows that you can find whatever you want using a search engine like Google, which fortunately, has an overwhelmingly legitimate purpose. I do find it funny, though, when companies cross borders to sue in other countries. Treaties exist, but notions re: property undoubtedly differ, despite the legal definitions, and companies run the risk of losing millions of customers as a result of cultural differences. That will certainly cost them more in the long run.
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@Trev
I think it's a bit like subtracting an integer constant in PPC assembly. That is to say, you add a negative one.
When you give reputation points and select the "dissaprove" rather than "approve", you detract from the person's reputation score.
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Hi,
It is about time that someone took care of these shysters that are copying an artists work, they copy music, movies, operating systems and anything else that cost money, the artists are losing, the movies are losing, the software industry is losing. People should pay to have these artists creations. Look what software piracy is doing to computers, if it weren't for pirates we wouldn't need software protection.
smerf
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Hi,
It is about time that someone took care of these shysters that are copying an artists work, they copy music, movies, operating systems and anything else that cost money, the artists are losing, the movies are losing, the software industry is losing. People should pay to have these artists creations. Look what software piracy is doing to computers, if it weren't for pirates we wouldn't need software protection.
smerf
Software with protection is crap anyways, good riddance.
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C'mon guys we ALL know what that site is ALL about.
And if they provide the hardware and advertise openly about it then they are actively facilitating the crime being executed. Its got nothing to do with combating exploitation of the poor and civil freedoms being suppressed (or the freedom of the artists to keep the rewards of their music)
TPB is just a search engine, what's available through it is up to its users. One of the site's admins has made a research and found that 70%-80% out of 1000 seeds are legal stuff: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/02/pirate-bay-survey-says-that-80-of-our-torrents-are-legal.ars . Why TBF must be closed down then while a search engine like Google doesn't have to, even if you can find pirated stuff with it as well? Does its name ("The Pirate Bay") make it illegal?
Varthall
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The art of in-justice:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/pirateconflict/
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it doesnt matter what happens to piratebay. Piracy will live on regardless. I use TPB and other ways to get torrents. Fighting piracy is a waste of time and $$
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TPB is just a search engine, what's available through it is up to its users. One of the site's admins has made a research and found that 70%-80% out of 1000 seeds are legal stuff: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/02/pirate-bay-survey-says-that-80-of-our-torrents-are-legal.ars.
I find that very hard to believe. Just see the TOP-100 lists.. wheres the legal stuff then?
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TPB is just a search engine, what's available through it is up to its users. One of the site's admins has made a research and found that 70%-80% out of 1000 seeds are legal stuff: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/02/pirate-bay-survey-says-that-80-of-our-torrents-are-legal.ars . Why TBF must be closed down then while a search engine like Google doesn't have to, even if you can find pirated stuff with it as well? Does its name ("The Pirate Bay") make it illegal?
Varthall
TPB isn't just a search engine. TPB also hosts the .torrent files and provides a tracker.
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Wow this is crazy. I'm sure google doesn't care there too powerful and have there hands in more places than even the government can keep track of. However these guys are getting screwed for sharing torrents. Its not illegal to download a backup of something that you own. For instance if I own a copy of 4 Rooms DVD which is a hard to find DVD in stores anyway and it gets scratched when I download it and watch it I'm not breaking the law even though I may have had to go to a site that most people do break the law to get what I needed. I do understand it does happen there and probably most of the time people download but just because the industries sick of sewing users doesn't mean they can turn it around and go after the providers. Comcast Lost a lawsuit because the were blocking these torrents, and they lost because people use them for more than piracy.
ANY Linux Flavor comes down faster on a torrent.
Want to stop piracy make prices biased on income. Art in some form of fashion is desired by every one, and now all people can afford to get it at its price. So instead of just going well my life sucks and I guess I don't deserve to have this at my $5.15/hour job (Minimum wage US), people get it in what ever way is currently available. How many people bought blank tapes and actually used them to make mix tapes that they didn't give away or share with some one. Well should you sue the tape making industry because I'm sure they knew people used there product to make copies of copyrighted material. Its just a case of greed in the corporate world gone wrong again. This is why the whole economy is collapsing in the first place. The same basic greed is every where and people don't invest because of fear of it getting worse. That just makes things fall apart more.
I'm sick of it all damn the powers that be there all evil douche bags that could care less about the fulfillment of the lives of others.
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TPB isn't just a search engine. TPB also hosts the .torrent files and provides a tracker.
This is good point which some people tend to forget when comparing TPB to Google.
By the way do you guys guess what strikes me as funny..the fact that for so many years TPB admins have BRAGGED how they can do whatever they want, uphold the largest piracy center in the world and no-one can't stop them. And suddenly when they are facing penalties their counterargument is that its all been a big misunderstanding and a large portion of TPB is legal :-)
Sorry fellas, can't have it both ways.
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With support from the Swedish people (as seen with the 7.9% percent vote (http://www.thelocal.se/19590/20090522/) according to polls for the Piracy Party in European parliament election) and maybe soon having other mature democracies follow their lead (USA?), the future looks good for TPB in my opinion. It is high time to end the dark ages regarding copyright and patents (as I hope these times will be referred to in the future).
(http://www.thelocal.se/articleImages/19794.jpg)
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With support from the Swedish people (as seen with the 7.9% percent vote (http://www.thelocal.se/19590/20090522/) according to polls for the Piracy Party in European parliament election) and maybe soon having other mature democracies follow their lead (USA?), the future looks good for TPB in my opinion. It is high time to end the dark ages regarding copyright and patents (as I hope these times will be referred to in the future).
About the Piracy party, Finland will have its own section soon: Read about it here (http://www.piraattiliitto.org/news)
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I know, my comments weren't directed at stefcep2. They weren't even fully directed at you. I was trying to make a more general comment about the current trend in describing our society as "Orwellian" when really I don't feel it is anything of the sort.
UNTIL you got a company, like Airbus, and lose a 6 billion dollar contract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_(signals_intelligence)#Controversy)
But yea, go on, leave it to the maffia, as long as it doesn't affect you.
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*sigh* more popcorn needed ...
Just another TPB thread on another board ... ho hum!
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Its strange and I dont know if the law has been changed in the uk( i doubt it as in the uk its still against the law to record tv programes, or rip cds to your mp3 player, thought I doubt anyone would get charged with anymore), but you can sue people who facilitate piracy. They tried with the amstrad twin vhs recoreders, and also with the mulitface for the 8 bits computers, that let you dump games to disk, and they failed. the reeason being that a) they could be used for ligitimate reasonss, thought they mainly were not and b) just because something can be used for piracy does not mean it has to. Its down to the perosn using the device or service.
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TPB is just a search engine, what's available through it is up to its users. One of the site's admins has made a research and found that 70%-80% out of 1000 seeds are legal stuff
And people read playboy and similar magazines for the interesting interviews ...
When I go to piratebay I know for what reason I do that.
greets,
Staf.
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If Playboy's images were the least bit exciting to look at, they wouldn't need to publish them alongside written text. Larry Flynt learned that long ago. (I know, Hugh is selling a lifestyle. Whatever.)
The only thing the Pirate Bay lawsuit has accomplished is the possible incarceration of several smartasses and the mobilization of a generation that has different notions with regard to intellectual property. Copyrights are not set in stone. They're sufferred to continue by the will of the people, whether you live in a free society or not. Art will survive with or without copyrights. Like everything else, the media industry must reinvent itself as a customer-centric service industry to survive. Artists that are in it for the money must do the same.
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And it continues.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8089102.stm
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I was listening to a supposedly "liberal" radio station in my area. 950 AM Air America radio in the Twin Cities and heard some lawyer talking about going after "website owners" for the content of their sites and how he loved to take their sites down. And as a slightly informed individual I was so pissed at the ignorance of what he was saying and apparently doing in life. I don't know where it all ends. Maybe in 2012 like the Mayans believe.