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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: persia on March 31, 2009, 02:30:42 PM
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Interesting article from OS News (http://www.osnews.com/story/21207/AmigaOS_and_The_x86_Question)
AmigaOS and The x86 Question
posted by Thom Holwerda on Thu 26th Mar 2009 23:34 UTC
Despite the recent emergence of several new ways to actually run AmigaOS 4.0, the supply of machines is still extremely small, and not very future proof. As such, one of the most recurring questions within the Amiga community is why don't they port the darn thing to x86?
The past few days and weeks, Amigaworld.net has been overladen with threads and comments about the x86 question, and it has even driven someone to set up a crude bounty for an x86 version for AmigaOS 4.0. The current x86 thread was started March 19, and already measures 692 posts in 35 pages.
There are several standard replies to the x86 question within the Amiga community. There are people who still see a future in the PowerPC market, even after years and years of utter misery. Sadly, even though the PowerPC platform is far from dead, it simply doesn't play a role any more in the desktop market. Whenever a company announces an AmigaOS4-capable board, we're getting hardware that's 9 years old with an insane price tag.
A number of Amigans even go as far as to say that people shouldn't be able to get AmigaOS4 so easily, and they complain that people who want an x86 variant of the AmigaOS are just looking for a free ride. The word "elitist" doesn't even begin to describe this attitude.
There also also people who claim that moving AmigaOS4 to x86 would mean the end of the Amiga operating system, because it would not be able to compete with other x86 operating systems such as Linux and Windows. This seems like a rather odd reasoning to me: we cannot compete if we run on x86, but we can compete if we run on underpowered, overpriced hardware, with no option for people to try it out before buying? Logic is something that has left much of the Amiga community long ago.
Another, much more valid reply is that there already is an x86 Amiga operating system: AROS. AROS is open source, free, and runs on lots of hardware, and can even have other operating systems as hosts. However, it is 'only' source-compatible with AmigaOS, not binary compatible. This, however, is a moot point in this discussion since a possible x86 version of AmigaOS4 wouldn't be able to run legacy software either.
Sadly, the discussion itself seems to be moot since Hyperion, who develop AmigaOS4 might not be allowed to port AmigaOS4 over in the first place. The company is entangled in a legal battle with Amiga, Inc., a battle no one really understands any more. Still, these legal troubles have not prevented Hyperion from releasing AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos II, which raises the question just how much of a limiting factor the lawsuit actually is.
It's a sad state of affairs, but there's little anyone can do. It's really too bad, because AmigaOS4 certainly has something to offer to many enthusiasts. As it stands now, however, getting AmigaOS4 is simply too much of an investment in a relatively old and limited platform, and especially in the economic climate we're in today, few people will shell out boatloads of money for a toy operating system.
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What economic climate?? :P
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This seems like a rather odd reasoning to me: we cannot compete if we run on x86, but we can compete if we run on underpowered, overpriced hardware, with no option for people to try it out before buying?
When did people have option to try it out before buying? I never got to try it before buying my A500 way back in the good old days. There was no "free demo" hardware to borrow from Commodore to evaluate OS1.3 on before I paid up. I also do not know of a free demo of OSX before you buy a mac, or of a free demo of Windows before I buy a PC. I'd imagine that if I arranged for my own "free demo" of Vista or XP or OSX, that Microsoft or Apple would want a rather large settlement fee from me should they come to know about it... I don't understand your complaint on this.
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You can try any of the mainstream OSes for free, at computer shops or public libraries for Windows or MacOS, Linux you can try and use for free.
Where to try Amiga OS in 2009?
The rubbish tip?
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Where to try Amiga OS
There were quite a few Amiga fairs where you could try AmigaOS 4 even before it was released and I am quite sure that Amiga dealers like Vesalia or AmigaKit will let you try it out if you go to their shops.
Bye,
Thomas
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Nice article. And it's good that it's getting out to the OS community at large. Some outside perspective - especially from former Amiga users - could be a valuable marketing probe. I'll read the comments at OS News in a little while.
PPC for OS4 made a lot of sense in the past, since there were the existing Cyberstorm/Blizzard PPC boards to serve as a development platform and compatibility with classic PPC software was a design goal. The picture is blurrier now, since PowerUp compatibility is non-existant and WarpOS compatibility seems to have become an afterthought and is... a bit weak.
But it's 68K compatibility that's critically important. As long as the integrated 68K emulations make it over to a hypothetical x86 port, there won't be much of an issue. Existing OS4 software is hopefully new enough to have not had its source code lost and thus require minimal effort to bring to x86.
There are still merits to AmigaOS on PPC, though. I suspect computers with absurdly low power requirements are going to become a pretty hot market in the next few years and PPC Amigas could carve out a healthy niche there, offering on-par user-perceived performance using 60W instead of 300W. The kiosk market, dumb terminals, and other embedded markets would be worth investigating. Even with higher-cost boards, they'd pay for themselves in electricity savings after a few years.
This all depends, of course, on PPC maintaining its performance-per-watt advantage over x86.
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Let's not have this OS4 x86 crap here too. Visiting AmigaWorld was horrible lately. It's not that I'm against x86 but some people whining on forums are not going to change the legal obstacle that prevents this port from happening.
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Well, certainly, it's an interesting exercise in "What If...?"
Of course, as stated, it's also a completely pointless one. An official x86 AmigaOS can't exist in the current legal framework. And, if it could, would it really be that much different from AROS?
And, just my 2c worth... With as long as I've been hanging around the Amiga scene, I've still never even been in the same room with an Amiga running OS4.x. In fact, with as many long-time Amiga users and fans as I know, I don't even know anyone within 50-100 miles of me who has seen it either, let alone owns one.
So, that too is a very different dynamic when making a purchasing decision. For Linux or AROS, I can throw a Live CD in my workstation. For Mac OSX, I can go to the local Apple Store or stop over at any one of several people's houses I see every day and play with one. Ditto for any version of Windows, plus there are hundreds of local stores with floor models.
AmigaOS 4.x? Maybe it's the best thing to happen to computing since the keyboard replaced punchcards. I haven't seen it. All I have been able to see are the prices, specs, and a few grainy YouTube videos of it doing nothing particularly exciting. That's all the information I have available.
And it doesn't thrill me. :-( Certainly, anything that could reach out to people better than this would have to be a boost.
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Nobody is going to go out of their way to try an OS that most people think died about the same time the USSR did.
Reasons not to go out of the way to try::
Abysmal price performance ratio on hardware, which, to top it off you have to back order from Germany.
No support for syncing mobile phones or iPods
No support for Microsoft Office,yeah Word 97, as if someone is going to try to save something as word 97. We tried to get people to use .doc instead of .docx and got nowhere, you want to tell them not only to save in .doc, but an old version of it to boot?
********
I can buy an Acer Aspire One for US$239. Low power, 120 GB hard drive, wifi, comes with XP (but it's easy enough to load a Linux variant or Leopard (too dam easy actually, took a couple hours after a quick Google search)). Super Low power consumption. I can see the Aspire locally at a major chain store like Dick Smiths.
So why would anyone who is not an raging Amiga fan even think once about SAM at four times the price and slightly more than a third of the power? Let alone travel to a different city/country to see a demo by a fanboy?
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Flashlab wrote:
Let's not have this OS4 x86 crap here too. Visiting AmigaWorld was horrible lately. It's not that I'm against x86 but some people whining on forums are not going to change the legal obstacle that prevents this port from happening.
Agreed that this shouldn't turn into another massive "OS4 on x86!!111" debate. I have no strong feelings either way, but is there even a legal obstacle anymore? It seems like either the AmigaOne limitation was lifted, as evidenced by the Sam and Pegasos versions, or Hyperion's trying to shoot for the moon by doing so...
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@billt
I refer you to BeOS Personal Edition, which was free and allowed you to try before you buy.
Wasn't exactrly succesful though!
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billt wrote:
When did people have option to try it out before buying? I never got to try it before buying my A500 way back in the good old days.
Isn't this exactly how the latest version of MorphOS is? I thought I read quite a few posts of people that just use the free trial and restart every 30 minutes or whatever the limit is?
Anyway, as far as trying an A500, I know a few people that Software Etc. wanted to kick out for playing S.O.T.B. all the time. Very well tried out before buying! ;-)
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The argument is an ancient one, going back to before Hyperion even wrote a line of code. All sorts of reasons have been given (economic, licensing, technical etc.) but the simple truth is that the will never existed and probably never will.
Which is why this has been a static market/scene for the best part of a decade now. Yes, there's the odd development here and there but no scope for expansion or attracting new users or old users who moved away years ago.
I was hoping to see something happen many years ago, but gave up when it became clear it wasn't going to happen. Now - with the exception of taking the odd brief look at AROS development about once a year - I haven't run any Amiga software for over five years. It would take something utterly astonishing to bring me back and let's face it that ain't on the cards either.
The boat left the jetty a long time ago.
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We are in a very difficult situation: On x86 we have to compete with Windows, MacOS X and Linux. AmigaOS can't do this without so many changes, that almost nothing of the original AmigaOS would be left. That would mean we can use as good Windows or MacOS X with UAE for playing old games.
As a niche platform Amiga needs own hardware and software. 1. 68k and PPC is dead. 2. There is no need for another desktop-computer besides x86 with Windows or MacOS X. That's why Linux is not the "number 2", even if it's free and a lot of good software is available.
So what niches are there? Mobile phones? Handheld computers like the Pandorra or the EeePC? Settop-Boxes? Game consoles? Very cheap computers? All them? Yes, that is maybe the only left market except emulation of classic Amigas. And for that devices there are two possible CPUs: Coldfire or ARM. The advantage of ARM is, that we are not depending to only one manufacturer. What that means we saw with Motorola/Freescale.
So if I had to decide, AmigaOS 5.0 would run on ARM! And that is the other point: There is the need for one strong company (or movement) to take in into one direction. There must be one official AmigaOS, not "hundreds" of small projects of keeping "the spirit" of AmigaOS alive.
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MIPS, Coldfire, ARM etc.. looks nice. What pesters me most about x86 is the total lack of good engineering.
Let's stay on big-endian with linear addressing, besides that cpu doesn't matter too much. Just the manufacturer have a good feature plan. Don't forget that ARM definitely use their legal department!, which may spell problems in the feature for any FPGA re-implementations like minimig.
Coldfire has one advantage, it's supposedly similar in instruction set to m68k so a port can be easy.
What AmigaOS has over other OS is Speed! and small resource need. Let's compete with the strong sides, and not bother to compete where AmigaOS has it's weaknesses.
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coldfish wrote:
Where to try Amiga OS in 2009?
That pisses me off too, mate.
Despite of the fact that I want it already, some people might wish to try it. Cuz a sam440 bundle costs lots of money.
I got decided when I SAW it live on local fairs. I would go for it anyway I think. But for sure, there are many people thinking, especially facing the price (say, many people on the east have to multiply the price by the factor of 2-5...)
So Hyperion should really consider it, especially about their situation.
On the other hand if you're an Amiga guy, you should afford. But for many people, Macs are expensive, iPhones are expensive, HTC/Eseries etc. So really, why this policy??
You can always go torrent but this is not the way out, is it?
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freqmax wrote:
What pesters me most about x86 is the total lack of good engineering.
dude, put the crack pipe down.
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What was really an Amiga? On OS or a Machine!?
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yakumo9275, Yes x86 is an example of good Marketing, not engineering. If you don't count the amount of work put into patch engineering ;)
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billt wrote:
This seems like a rather odd reasoning to me: we cannot compete if we run on x86, but we can compete if we run on underpowered, overpriced hardware, with no option for people to try it out before buying?
When did people have option to try it out before buying? I never got to try it before buying my A500 way back in the good old days. There was no "free demo" hardware to borrow from Commodore to evaluate OS1.3 on before I paid up.
...and the Amiga has never been a cheap hobby either, so ridiculously expensive hardware is completely justified, right?
You can try a demo of MorphOS before you buy, a nice feature that will become more obvious when it is released for the Mac Mini (the closest to standardized hardware the Amiga has ever come).
Maybe not something you can take for granted, but a nice feature indeed! A competitive advantage worth highlighting. As is reasonable priced hardware, for that matter.
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DiskDoctor wrote:
coldfish wrote:
Where to try Amiga OS in 2009?
That pisses me off too, mate.
Despite of the fact that I want it already, some people might wish to try it. Cuz a sam440 bundle costs lots of money.
I got decided when I SAW it live on local fairs. I would go for it anyway I think. But for sure, there are many people thinking, especially facing the price (say, many people on the east have to multiply the price by the factor of 2-5...)
So Hyperion should really consider it, especially about their situation.
On the other hand if you're an Amiga guy, you should afford. But for many people, Macs are expensive, iPhones are expensive, HTC/Eseries etc. So really, why this policy??
You can always go torrent but this is not the way out, is it?
Me stupid. One has to have a hardware to test it on. But there are many people with machines capable of running AmigaOS4, not having the OS installed.
So it concerns smaller userbase actually, still being some sort of a problem.
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freqmax wrote:
MIPS, Coldfire, ARM etc.. looks nice. What pesters me most about x86 is the total lack of good engineering.
The modern x86 is an example of amazing engineering! Why don't you read actual technical documents before you make grand sweeping statements...
Let's stay on big-endian with linear addressing,
Why big-endian?
What is so special about it?
What makes big-endian any superior to little-endian?
Linear addressing? As in a flat address space? all modern CPU's have that, and the x86 comes with a fantastic MMU as well, its virtual memory support is possibly the best of any CPU!!!
besides that cpu doesn't matter too much. Just the manufacturer have a good feature plan.
I agree 100%
Don't forget that ARM definitely use their legal department!, which may spell problems in the feature for any FPGA re-implementations like minimig.
??? How, what? why?
Coldfire has one advantage, it's supposedly similar in instruction set to m68k so a port can be easy.
No easier than any other CPU...
What AmigaOS has over other OS is Speed! and small resource need. Let's compete with the strong sides, and not bother to compete where AmigaOS has it's weaknesses.
AmigaOS has weak task and Memory management... that puts it off the radar for almost all applications now... I can't think of one single modern application (other than perhaps as a teaching tool) where I would choose AmigaOS over Linux, now... the ship as they say has sailed...
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Flashlab wrote:
people whining on forums are not going to change the legal obstacle that prevents this port from happening.
What legal obstacle? Haven't Hyperion showed clear enough that they don't give a {bleep} about their contract with Amiga Inc? What's the difference, in terms of "legal obstacles", between making a Sam, Pegasos and x86 port?
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This article adds little to no value to anything whatsoever. What a waste of time reading it. A "toy operating system" - well that goes well to say what the author is writing for and what he thinks of Amiga OS. He's nothing but a hobbyist who wants to try and play with an OS. I have news for you pal, get yourself UBuntu, its free and you get free software. Amiga platform is like Apple/Mac. If you want Mac OS X you need to buy their hardware. Yes, they do have it running on X86 now, but the hardware is still Apple's. PPC is the natural evolution, and you're mistaken that you need Ghz and gigabytes of memory for OS4.
Any X86 port, would mean the end of Hyperion, and OS4 and any OS4 development. I can just see the hundreds of folks who are downloading the iso off piratebay. The serious users who see OS4 as a serious OS, will buy the hardware and software. The freeriders will stay out. The cost of hardware and software is used to offset the development cost (it's not just the price of a cd!)
End of discussion. But hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter how smart/stupid it is. :-D
PS needless to say, even OS4 for Sam has already leaked out. Way to go, don't blame the companies that support amiga, when one day, nothing will be sold or available and AMIGA OS will rest in peace for the last time.
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@billt
I agree. There are dealers and users that demo OS4 all the time. Even if they aren't an invite to a show is all that is needed. I think there are many people that are simply so broke and so used to picking up cheap peecee that Amiga OS is not really for them (small market, small economies of scale).
And that goes without saying also for some old classic hardware for Commodore Amigas.
I'm simply calling a spade a spade, not beating around the bush.
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Maybe people will get their hard cpu lesson when dis-trusting computing(R) is turned on by M$ or another organisation..
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what to heck is x86 ???
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DrZarkov wrote:
We are in a very difficult situation...
Define "we". The Amiga community is so segregated that it's no longer possible to group it under the rather broad title of "we".
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Logic is something that has left much of the Amiga community long ago.
Pretty much sums it up.
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Yeah, lowperforming stuff to hillarous prices won't work in the current market. And the x86-pc have caught up in some ways with cpu caches, pci bus, s-ata etc..
Something that is lacking is the performance bottleneck from protected mode/mmu, In conjuction with badly written operating systems.
boinger, Intel 8086 and compatibles ;)
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What are you talking about? The SAM440ep is teh hawt. And you know everyone that just bought one from the latest batch is just *thrilled* with the 100 Euro price drop on the soon-to-be-shipped-and-faster-than-a-SAM440ep SAM440ep-flex.
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x86 wont happen... Who got the money for the work/or even the license ? The only way "forward" as I see it is the mac ppc ports.. For both Mos and os4..
There are quite many used ppc macs and it wont take years to port it...
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The only way "forward" as I see it is the mac ppc ports.. For both Mos and os4..
Porting to a dead hardware line (Mac PPC) is "forward"?
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Thats why i write "forward"... Forward to more users than the ever shrinking community now... Its just a transition between solutions, mac ppc is really not the solution wanted... But its a possible one, realisticly.
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freqmax wrote:
Yeah, lowperforming stuff to hillarous prices won't work in the current market. And the x86-pc have caught up in some ways with cpu caches, pci bus, s-ata etc..
Something that is lacking is the performance bottleneck from protected mode/mmu, In conjuction with badly written operating systems.
How does protected mode and MMU constitute bottlenecks?!
Can you elaborate that further?
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Oh wow, some new American words, it helps to have Google to look things up (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teh+hawt&defid=1509352)
The problem with Sam is that it's price to performance ratio is horrible when compared to a PC box. Yeah, us Amiga Fanboys might buy it but nobody outside of this community would.
Is it possible that most of us like the exclusivity of the price? The price keeps the outside riff-raff out and the community remains a small devoted cult of believers.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/RiverIsMyGoddess/icons/smiley_couchfire.gif)
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terminator4 wrote:
@billt
I agree. There are dealers and users that demo OS4 all the time. Even if they aren't an invite to a show is all that is needed. I think there are many people that are simply so broke and so used to picking up cheap peecee that Amiga OS is not really for them (small market, small economies of scale).
And that goes without saying also for some old classic hardware for Commodore Amigas.
I'm simply calling a spade a spade, not beating around the bush.
Where? Is this Europe you are refering to? Because in NYC in the USA the local Amiga club is now down to meeting about once every three months in a sandwich shop for two hours. And there is no storefront to go see a dealer for such. And this is a city known for having access usually to most things. What would some guy living in Vermont do to see the OS live before buying if someone in NYC can't in any good accessible form?
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persia wrote:
Oh wow, some new American works, it helps to have Google to look things up (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teh+hawt&defid=1509352)
Never have I heard that on the East Coast. I would not peg that as a new American "work", which I think you mean to say in the Queens English instead as "word(s)". :lol:
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What AmigaOS has over other OS is Speed! and small resource need. Let's compete with the strong sides, and not bother to compete where AmigaOS has it's weaknesses.
Well, I'd rather say: let's fix/improve the weaknesses, while keeping the (very few) strong sides... That's why I keep on pointing weaknesses. There's no way you may attract people with current weaknesses... But if you manage to address it while keeping the strong sides, now it can become interesting.
So knowing that, I find it useless keep on repeting it's fast, etc...
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krize wrote:
x86 wont happen... Who got the money for the work/or even the license ? The only way "forward" as I see it is the mac ppc ports.. For both Mos and os4..
There are quite many used ppc macs and it wont take years to port it...
The PPC architecture is kind of dead, at least when it comes to future developments and advancements of CPU's that would be interesting to "us". OK, second hand Mac hardware will keep some community members happy for a while, but at some point further down the road, both MorphOS and OS4 will simply have to jump to either ARM or x86. But if I understand things correctly, this will probably also mean starting over with a clean slate when it comes to backwards compatibility. Anubis anyone?
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@takemehomegrandma
The legal obstacle in that they can only port OS4 to PPC hardware. So that rules out x86. I don't know what the exact words in the contract are but if it states PPC architecture instead AmigaOne or any other specific computer model Hyperion did nothing wrong. But I'm not the judge here and neither are you sadly.
And, yes, I think that anyone whining about OS4 on x86 should switch AROS, Icaros or Anubis. These are open source, run on x86 and you have your cheap available, powerful hardware. And if you want you can actually contribute to it in development; that's a lot better than whining on forums about OS4 on x86.
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What if Amiga Inc were judged to be insolvent before the sneaky handoff to KMOS? Would Hyperion then have all rights to OS 4 including the right to port to X86?
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by mschulz on 2009/4/3 8:50:08
Porting to a dead hardware line (Mac PPC) is "forward"?
Forward as in forward to the grave.
Dammy
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Flashlab wrote:
@takemehomegrandma
The legal obstacle in that they can only port OS4 to PPC hardware.
According to the contract they couldn't port it to new PPC hardware either, but now we have both a Sam 440 port and a Pegasos2 port and presumably they are working on something else (that presumably concerns an OS4 port). They have clearly showed that they don't give a rats ass about the Amiga Inc contract, and if I recall things correctly (didn't follow the developments in detail) they even argue in the court process that they consider the contract dead because Amiga Inc went bankrupt or whatever, so they are now the rightful owners of the. Didn't they even try to get the Amiga trademarks in a separate lawsuit? Anyway, the "legal obstacles" argument against a x86 port simply isn't there anymore in Hyperion's current position.
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Is Amiga Inc dead yet? Their chief benefactor gone, two press releases in a year, one of which was for a "tip calculator," no new hardware, no new software, a website where many of the graphics are missing, etc. Anyone in Seattle care to check out their "headquarters" over the top of a furniture store to see if they are sittll there?
(http://dequalss.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
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@persia
Did you replace the fax machine with a horse in that picture? :lol:
Office Space is a great movie BTW... :-)