Amiga.org

The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: dammy on March 17, 2009, 09:59:58 PM

Title: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 17, 2009, 09:59:58 PM
After a very long delay, Anubis-os.org is finally open (http://anubis-os.org/home/).

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 17, 2009, 10:15:31 PM
No chicken is safe!

(http://www.popfly.com/users/Le-Modder-des-jeux/Chicken%20Bounce%20-%20Fixed/preview.jpg)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 17, 2009, 11:37:55 PM
Hello,

The project looks very interesting. However I have a question. What is in AmigaOS which is worth saving when compared to Linux, Windows, BSD, etc? I was going to start a thread on this but I think it does fit here.

I understand that the structure of all these Operating Systems is different. So what does AmigaOS (or any of its variants) have as a pro when compared to the other Operating Systems, and will these features be included in the new OS?

Regards,
Sim085

Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: yakumo9275 on March 17, 2009, 11:38:13 PM
Quote
It has been decided that we are going to use Objective C for all the core code in the project. The reason is that we get a tried and tested object model, stay relatively programming language neutral and get a lot of framework code for free. For now, much of this framework code is borrowed from the GNU Step project.


eecch. obj-c is horrendous. sounds like anubis is sucking down the apple-loving-juice too much.

the open source world isn't exactly flooded with talented obj-c programmers so I think this will backfire a bit...

milestone 1 makes for an interesting read...

who knows, maybe they will pull it off.


Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: ferrellsl on March 18, 2009, 12:10:14 AM
Anubis won't go anywhere.  It's merely a re-implementation of an old idea called Amithlon.....They'd be better off supporting kernel and driver updates for Amithlon instead of trying to reinvent the Amithlon "wheel".
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: A1260 on March 18, 2009, 01:07:59 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: bloodline on March 18, 2009, 01:36:16 AM
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
Anubis won't go anywhere.  It's merely a re-implementation of an old idea called Amithlon.....They'd be better off supporting kernel and driver updates for Amithlon instead of trying to reinvent the Amithlon "wheel".


Nothing to do with Amithlon at all... Amithlon was an Emulator, Anubis is an operating system... :roll:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: da9000 on March 18, 2009, 05:52:15 AM
Quote

yakumo9275 wrote:
eecch. obj-c is horrendous. sounds like anubis is sucking down the apple-loving-juice too much.


You obviously never programmed in/with Objective-C.

Clue: Objective-C wasn't created by Apple, so there's no sucking apple-loving-juice. The genius we should thank for it is Brad J. Cox (http://www.virtualschool.edu/cox/) and the SmallTalk and predecessors crowd. It's just the folks at NeXT were smarter than most and chose the best object oriented language with realistic performance. Then when they were bought by Apple, they carried that over.

Quote

yakumo9275 wrote:
the open source world isn't exactly flooded with talented obj-c programmers so I think this will backfire a bit...


Yeah, right. Please come out of whatever rock you live in. If you haven't noticed Apple's ascent and the proliferation of iPhone applications, then there's not much point discussing things, but just in case: there are tens of thousands of iPhone developers, and most are doing Obj-C stuff. And of course there are more and more Mac OS X developers each day. And in fact, most of them, at least to me, seem very talented.

Oh, and what really matters in the case of a bunch of coders (AROS guys!) trying to work on a new OS:

* Almost all programmers that touch Obj-C fall in love with it, partly because of its clean and elegant approach to object oriented programming and partly because of the great frameworks that allow you to do things easily without reinventing the wheel.

* It's super-easy to pick up because it's just a superset of C/C++ and you can freely mix C++ code with it, which is great for those coming from Java/C++ worlds.


Having said that, I hope to one day be able to port the GNU Obj-C environment to AmigaOS. So yeah, I've used it before speaking.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: yssing on March 18, 2009, 07:12:05 AM
The website looks horrible here. I take it, its an IE problem, since it looks like the look is caused by faulty css rendering.

One question that keeps popping up here, is, how amiga compatible is anubis?
Does it even relate to amiga?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: cicero790 on March 18, 2009, 07:24:28 AM
Congratulations!! Hope it will benefit everything that is Amiga. Best of luck. :-)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: paolone on March 18, 2009, 07:48:06 AM
Quote

sim085 wrote:
The project looks very interesting. However I have a question. What is in AmigaOS which is worth saving when compared to Linux, Windows, BSD, etc?


The answer is really simple: why are you still here? That's the answer.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: paolone on March 18, 2009, 07:51:09 AM
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
Anubis won't go anywhere.  It's merely a re-implementation of an old idea called Amithlon.....They'd be better off supporting kernel and driver updates for Amithlon instead of trying to reinvent the Amithlon "wheel".


I ofter ask myself why people should talk even if they don't know anything about the subject they're talkin' about...

Anubis is similar to Amithlon as like as I am similar to Eva Herzigova.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 18, 2009, 07:54:33 AM
Quote

paolone wrote:
The answer is really simple: why are you still here? That's the answer.
I did not mean that as an insult. What I wanted is to learn more on Amiga Workbench (which we know it was ahead of its time when it first came on the market) to see if there is anything in this OS that is still better then any other OS out there.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 18, 2009, 07:56:14 AM
Quote
The website looks horrible here. I take it, its an IE problem, since it looks like the look is caused by faulty css rendering.


Actually it's temporary site and the new will be based on Typo3.

Quote
One question that keeps popping up here, is, how amiga compatible is anubis? Does it even relate to amiga?


For the end user, they probably won't tell too much difference between Anubis-OS and AOS.  EUAE will be integrated for those who want it.  So it's up to the coders which they want to develope in. Anubis-OS is designed from the start to be concerned about the end user experience.

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 18, 2009, 08:45:24 AM
This one took me by surprise (http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2009/03/anubis-on-aura-on-arm.html).

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Methuselas on March 18, 2009, 09:03:58 AM
Good luck with this guys! I'm looking forward to it. If you guys get an emulated version to run, for testing, count me in as a beta tester.

Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Khephren on March 18, 2009, 09:32:22 AM
The reasons I still use Amiga OS:

boots in seconds.

Can add/remove programs by commenting out a line of text
(unlike registry)

Can make a new bootable partition just by dragging and dropping what's on another partition.

You can easily learn exactly what every file and folder does,
they are not all jammed together with weird names like windows.
e.g: Monitor drivers go in the monitor folder, printer drivers in the printers folders, libraries in libs etc. Just move em into storage if you don't want to use them. (...which is called storage!)

Very low overheads: it's there to run other programs, and to be efficent and easy to learn. it doesn't need a gig of ram and a 1Ghz processor just to run itself.

Excelent Multi tasking.

Very responsive.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: ferrellsl on March 18, 2009, 11:58:52 AM
@bloodline and paolone

Actually Anubis isn't even an operating system.  Nothing exists but the name and a web site that's so vague as to be useless.  Just more Amiga vapourware....nothing will come of it.

And we already have hundreds of various distros of Linux.  One more distro called Anubis added to the mix will go unnoticed and is a pointless waste of time and resources.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 18, 2009, 12:14:41 PM
god ferrellsl you are so sure of yourself.  Tell me what else does the future hold oh mystic one .
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: paolone on March 18, 2009, 12:41:14 PM
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
@bloodline and paolone

Actually Anubis isn't even an operating system.  Nothing exists but the name and a web site that's so vague as to be useless.  Just more Amiga vapourware....nothing will come of it.

And we already have hundreds of various distros of Linux.  One more distro called Anubis added to the mix will go unnoticed and is a pointless waste of time and resources.


Why, sometimes, I feel that people saying "it will never happen", is meaning "I hope it will never happen" instead?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 18, 2009, 01:09:33 PM
Quote
Why, sometimes, I feel that people saying "it will never happen", is meaning "I hope it will never happen" instead?


I think he is just spooked after seeing the (although extremely basic) Anubis-OS running on uTube.  I may break down this fall and purchase the Genesi netbook.

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 18, 2009, 01:23:44 PM
Is there anything I can help with on this project.  I am a coder but unfortunately only in a propriatry version of basic we use in work.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: 0amigan0 on March 18, 2009, 01:33:48 PM
Quote

paolone wrote:
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
@bloodline and paolone

Actually Anubis isn't even an operating system.  Nothing exists but the name and a web site that's so vague as to be useless.  Just more Amiga vapourware....nothing will come of it.

And we already have hundreds of various distros of Linux.  One more distro called Anubis added to the mix will go unnoticed and is a pointless waste of time and resources.


Why, sometimes, I feel that people saying "it will never happen", is meaning "I hope it will never happen" instead?


@Paolone:

Thats exactly what *I* mean: "I really, sincerely hope this other lets-try-to-resurrect-the-amiga, will NEVER happen !!!

Having said that, u're free to have fun with your AROS.
If u get excited just by going to Google Maps in OWB for AROS, then continue to do so. :-)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Manu on March 18, 2009, 01:40:14 PM
I think Anubis will be great. I just have that feeling.
But I hope AROS will benefit in some ways from the Anubis development too.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Piru on March 18, 2009, 01:54:13 PM
@dammy
Quote
EUAE will be integrated for those who want it.

How?

I've yet to see any sensible plan on how exactly that is supposed to happen. This thing has been talked about for years while nothing tangible has come out of it so far.

@Khephren
Quote
Excelent Multi tasking.

AmigaOS scheduler is rather lame. Any busy higher priority task will block lower priority ones forever. Having tons of tasks results in exponential slowdown inside the scheduler (it uses linear list walking). There is no guaranteed fairness in the scheduler. Anything has a better scheduler these days.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 18, 2009, 02:26:13 PM
by Piru on 2009/3/18 9:54:13

Quote
I've yet to see any sensible plan on how exactly that is supposed to happen. This thing has been talked about for years while nothing tangible has come out of it so far.


What are you referring to, AROS or Anubis-OS?  I'm only referring to Anubis-OS and not AROS.  

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: trekiej on March 18, 2009, 02:40:17 PM
I believe someone has started Aros and UAE integration.
 :-?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: AJCopland on March 18, 2009, 03:28:31 PM
If it truly is the behaviour and ideas of the OS itself that are what made Amiga great then I wish you the best of luck :-D

Building atop the Linux kernel to get around the lack of drivers and other issues sounds like a pretty good idea. Though I think you might still have difficulty with nVidia/Ati drivers occasionally.

Ignore the naysayers and their motives, what matters is that the developers want to try it.

Andy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Piru on March 18, 2009, 04:05:26 PM
@dammy
Quote
What are you referring to, AROS or Anubis-OS?

The thing I quoted in my post. You know like in this reply I quoted part of your question... ;-)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: trekiej on March 18, 2009, 04:29:48 PM
How does Anubis compare to Syllable?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: yakumo9275 on March 18, 2009, 04:37:40 PM
Quote
da9000 wrote:
You obviously never programmed in/with Objective-C.


Of course, you know every language I've ever programmed in, so it must be true!

Quote
da9000 wrote:
Clue: Objective-C wasn't created by Apple, so there's no sucking apple-loving-juice. The genius we should thank for it is Brad J. Cox (http://www.virtualschool.edu/cox/)


CLUE: I never said it was created by Apple.
But Apple are the only ones using it. Of course, if its apple promoted it must be sheer AWESOMENESS.

Quote
da9000 wrote:
Yeah, right. Please come out of whatever rock you live in.

You mean the real world that I live in?

Quote
da9000 wrote:
If you haven't noticed Apple's ascent and the proliferation of iPhone applications, then there's not much point discussing things, but just in case: there are tens of thousands of iPhone developers, and most are doing Obj-C stuff. And of course there are more and more Mac OS X developers each day. And in fact, most of them, at least to me, seem very talented.


I guess all those tens of thousands of iphone developers are releasing open source and just dieing to jump on the anubis band wagon.

So with all those rocking hot cool iphone developers floating around the place, why hasnt GNU Step taken over the world...

Since there is a metric {bleep}tonne more obj-c coders than c or c++ around I guess anubis will just pop up complete in a couple of months right?

Everyone must be dieing to line up to to come hack on a gnustep distribution.

As I stated in my op and other posts I think the milestone 1 is interesting and I still think basing it on linux kernel is the proper thing to do, I just dont think obj-c was the best choice.

Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: takemehomegrandma on March 18, 2009, 04:45:02 PM
Quote

Piru wrote:
@dammy
Quote
EUAE will be integrated for those who want it.

How?

I've yet to see any sensible plan on how exactly that is supposed to happen. This thing has been talked about for years while nothing tangible has come out of it so far.


He probably meant "bundled" and not "integrated" in the *true* meaning of the latter word...?

Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: ferrellsl on March 18, 2009, 04:54:27 PM
@jj

AmigaOS 4.1 will not be ported to x86.

I have more predictions if you're interested.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: ferrellsl on March 18, 2009, 04:55:30 PM
@trekiej

It doesn't compare because Anubis doesn't yet exist and probably never will.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: trekiej on March 18, 2009, 05:02:06 PM
That does not mean we can not look at planned specs.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: mdv2000 on March 18, 2009, 05:18:31 PM
On but also off the subject too is that Objective-C sucks!

I have been develop applications for the Mac OS X (including iPhone tools) for over 2 years and I have never programmed in a more aggravating language/environment.
XCode as a tool is good (as long as you don't compare the editor to Visual Studio or Delphi) - but using Objective-C is torture for a C/C++/Java/C# Programmer. Also, it is very much more obscure than those languages, so online reference and help isn't readily available unless you are a paid Mac SDK subscriber. (Free stuff very limited).

I am currently looking at porting/rewriting my applications to Lazarus (http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org)

Lazarus also works on Linux and Windows - It really is just an Open Source version of Delphi!

If AROS supported Lazarus, I would be writing Lazarus apps like crazy.  I have gotten AROS to run in VirtualBox nicely and very impressed with the progress it has made over the last few years.


What we are all dreaming of is a modern OS that has the simplicity and intuitiveness that the AmigaOS had.  I was 14 in 1987 when I got my Amiga and I picked it up quickly.
 
I never had to deal with aggravation of getting things to work like I did in my first PC Clone - a 486DX2-66 HP in 1994.  Windows 3.11 in 1994 to me seemed so clunky and over complicated.  That is why to this day I love the AmigaOS and hope something like AROS makes it.

I thought Linux would do that, but since they are fighting Apple to become the "Pretty" desktop OS, they are getting more aggravating/clunky.  Heaven forbid you have to change something after the default install that isn't included in a Wizard utility or you need to do something on a command line!

Later,


Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 18, 2009, 06:07:47 PM
Yawn,  come back when you have an operating system and we'll see.  The Amiga world is full of empty promises and non-existent products.  Give me something I can load on a computer and I'll try it, until then it's safest to consider it vapour.

(http://www.bedtimebear.com/forums/images/smilies/special/Ghost_by_zxt.gif)(http://www.bedtimebear.com/forums/images/smilies/special/Ghost_by_zxt.gif)(http://www.bedtimebear.com/forums/images/smilies/special/Ghost_by_zxt.gif)(http://www.bedtimebear.com/forums/images/smilies/special/Ghost_by_zxt.gif)(http://www.bedtimebear.com/forums/images/smilies/special/Ghost_by_zxt.gif)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Manu on March 18, 2009, 06:30:58 PM
@persia
What do you mean? It isn't like the Anubis team was here and said they have a demo ready tomorrow. The site is for now only info about what they are up to.  :roll:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: takemehomegrandma on March 18, 2009, 07:48:36 PM
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
@trekiej

It doesn't compare because Anubis doesn't yet exist and probably never will.


I think you may be a little over confident in that sentence. It's not like they will start from absolute scratch (like MorphOS did, which despite this has grown quite mature today). To me it sounds like they have the core from Linux, they will probably take a lot from AROS, and then develop some new to fill the gaps. Sure, it will still be a lot of work for the few guys involved, but I don't think it is an impossible mission. I'm not holding my breath though, but I'll keep my eyes open for the first mile stone release...

Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 19, 2009, 12:28:15 AM
As I said, I'm happy to take a look at anything they might develop, but let's see something before we get our knickers wet.

I presume the demo will be a VMWare image?

(http://mrssurvival.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smiley_shitfan.gif)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Tension on March 19, 2009, 01:01:03 AM
Quote

sim085 wrote:
Hello,

The project looks very interesting. However I have a question. What is in AmigaOS which is worth saving when compared to Linux, Windows, BSD, etc? I was going to start a thread on this but I think it does fit here.

I understand that the structure of all these Operating Systems is different. So what does AmigaOS (or any of its variants) have as a pro when compared to the other Operating Systems, and will these features be included in the new OS?

Regards,
Sim085



Pfft!!!
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 19, 2009, 08:55:23 AM
Quote

Tension wrote:
Pfft!!!
... which means?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Methuselas on March 19, 2009, 09:45:03 AM
Quote

sim085 wrote:
Quote

Tension wrote:
Pfft!!!
... which means?



I think that was a fart? :inquisitive:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: yssing on March 19, 2009, 10:00:14 AM
So how does anubis relate to amige, other than an integrated UAE??
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: paolone on March 19, 2009, 10:23:45 AM
Quote

0amigan0 wrote:

@Paolone:

Thats exactly what *I* mean: "I really, sincerely hope this other lets-try-to-resurrect-the-amiga, will NEVER happen !!!

Having said that, u're free to have fun with your AROS.
If u get excited just by going to Google Maps in OWB for AROS, then continue to do so. :-)


Honestly, I've heard smarter comments from my 7-months-old son.  :roll:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: paolone on March 19, 2009, 10:27:43 AM
Quote

yssing wrote:
So how does anubis relate to amige, other than an integrated UAE??


The same way Windows Vista relates do MS/DOS and MacOS X relates to MacOS Classic. If Amiga Inc was doing someting like Mschulz and others are doing (free and open) with Anubis, now we'll be reading here excited or even horny comments about how good, how wonderful and how powerful the new "AmigaNG-OS" will be.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 19, 2009, 10:29:04 AM
Because from what I can gather is that it will be a Amiga like OS.  Much like AOS4.1 and MorphOS.  Neither of which can be called a full amiga OS but an API compatible one.

From what I can gather it will neither run system friendly or aminga binaries.  It will just offer an AOS like experience.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: djbase on March 19, 2009, 11:00:04 AM
I wonder what is wrong with AROS to start another one with less amiga-features?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 19, 2009, 11:28:44 AM
I think by using a linux kernnel they are hoping to avvoid the problems AROS has with drivers for thee millions off different hardware options out there
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: bloodline on March 19, 2009, 11:33:30 AM
Quote

DJBase wrote:
I wonder what is wrong with AROS to start another one with less amiga-features?


With AROS, and OS4/MOS, the aim is to make an Operating System that from a technical stand point works like AmigaOS... With Anubis the idea is to make an operating system that, with respect to the user, looks and functions like AmigaOS, but without it's technical limitations.

It is a different approach, no less valid and one that has more long term value if indeed there is any value in "Amigalike" OSs....
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: bloodline on March 19, 2009, 11:40:10 AM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

DJBase wrote:
I wonder what is wrong with AROS to start another one with less amiga-features?


With AROS, and OS4/MOS, the aim is to make an Operating System that from a technical stand point works like AmigaOS... With Anubis the idea is to make an operating system that, with respect to the user, looks and functions like AmigaOS, but without its technical limitations.

It is a different approach, no less valid and one that has more long term value if indeed there is any value in "Amigalike" OSs....
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: bloodline on March 19, 2009, 11:45:03 AM
Quote

JJ wrote:
I think by using a linux kernnel they are hoping to avvoid the problems AROS has with drivers for thee millions off different hardware options out there


To be fair AROS Hosted use Linux to get around driver and hardware problems... But with any OS that clones Amiga OS, you have to live with the flaws of the original design, and Amiga OS is full of flaws!

I for one would love a nice simple unix that works like the OS I grew up with... And free, unlike OSX :roll:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: skurk on March 19, 2009, 12:02:26 PM
strike what I just said
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 19, 2009, 12:04:23 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
With Anubis the idea is to make an operating system that, with respect to the user, looks and functions like AmigaOS, but without it's technical limitations.
Why don't just develop a Graphical User Interface for Linux or BSD then? Something like GNOME and KDE?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: bloodline on March 19, 2009, 12:13:31 PM
Quote

sim085 wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
With Anubis the idea is to make an operating system that, with respect to the user, looks and functions like AmigaOS, but without it's technical limitations.
Why don't just develop a Graphical User Interface for Linux or BSD then? Something like GNOME and KDE?


Well the GUI is only part of the picture, filesystem, CLI, file structure, library and device handling are all inherent parts of the user experence with AmigaOS... These things will also need to be replicated in the new environment!
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 19, 2009, 12:37:59 PM
I am all for this project if it give the ease of use of AmigaOS but removes the flaws this can only be a good thing.  Plus with the beneift of running on cheap off the shelf hardware its a win win situation.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: downix on March 19, 2009, 01:53:34 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
I may break down this fall and purchase the Genesi netbook.

Dammy

Pardon me, netbook?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 19, 2009, 02:08:59 PM
Quote
Pardon me, netbook?


My error, I should have said if Genesi has a netbook (like all the others who are producing a netbook by Xmas), I'll break down and buy one.

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on March 19, 2009, 02:40:56 PM
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Khephren
Quote
Excelent Multi tasking.

AmigaOS scheduler is rather lame. Any busy higher priority task will block lower priority ones forever. Having tons of tasks results in exponential slowdown inside the scheduler (it uses linear list walking). There is no guaranteed fairness in the scheduler. Anything has a better scheduler these days.
Ehm, IIRC AmigaOS uses a Round Robin scheduler (the most basic pre-emptive scheduler), with which scheduling starvation does not exist.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: downix on March 19, 2009, 02:49:38 PM
Ok, I've been pondering ordering myself a Beagleboard, and if this will run on it, well, one more incentive to buy.

And what am I doing with a beagleboard?  That is for me to know and for you to find out.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Tension on March 19, 2009, 03:20:03 PM
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Khephren
Quote
Excelent Multi tasking.

AmigaOS scheduler is rather lame. Any busy higher priority task will block lower priority ones forever. Having tons of tasks results in exponential slowdown inside the scheduler (it uses linear list walking). There is no guaranteed fairness in the scheduler. Anything has a better scheduler these days.
Ehm, IIRC AmigaOS uses a Round Robin scheduler (the most basic pre-emptive scheduler), with which scheduling starvation does not exist.


This is quite an interesting read:
http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0309.0/0128.html
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Zorro on March 19, 2009, 04:26:07 PM
Great !

The only drawback I see for this project is that it has started only now and we, as usual, must enter in wait state for looooong time...

But if something real and good come from this, I will be very happy... surely.

MorphOS and/or OS4 and/or AROS for the legacy and this for the NG AmigaOS... nice !
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on March 19, 2009, 06:07:42 PM
Quote

Ehm, IIRC AmigaOS uses a Round Robin scheduler (the most basic pre-emptive scheduler), with which scheduling starvation does not exist.


Yes, but when a task's time slice expires, it's Enqueue()'d on the task ready list based on priority. If that task has the highest priority in the list, the scheduler will continue to schedule the task until it switches to a different state.

So, there's no guarantee that every task will make progress regardless of its priority. That's part of the reason why modern schedulers have some form of priority boosting. "Fairness" in a scheduler is really about making sure that all tasks get at least some CPU time. Completely fair schedulers sacrifice some aspects of prioritization to improve the user experience. ("User" doesn't necessarily mean a person. It could be anything that consumes foo produced by a task.) At least, that's my take on it. I'm not a computer scientist.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on March 19, 2009, 06:53:58 PM
Quote

Trev wrote:
Quote

Ehm, IIRC AmigaOS uses a Round Robin scheduler (the most basic pre-emptive scheduler), with which scheduling starvation does not exist.


Yes, but when a task's time slice expires, it's Enqueue()'d on the task ready list based on priority. If that task has the highest priority in the list, the scheduler will continue to schedule the task until it switches to a different state.

So, there's no guarantee that every task will make progress regardless of its priority. That's part of the reason why modern schedulers have some form of priority boosting. "Fairness" in a scheduler is really about making sure that all tasks get at least some CPU time. Completely fair schedulers sacrifice some aspects of prioritization to improve the user experience. ("User" doesn't necessarily mean a person. It could be anything that consumes foo produced by a task.) At least, that's my take on it. I'm not a computer scientist.
That article is rather interesting. Considering that article, it should be possible to make Anubis-OS as responsive as AmigaOS!  :idea:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on March 19, 2009, 08:45:25 PM
I didn't read the article until just now. :-) As we all know, Amiga computers have a lot of special purpose harware that does things the CPU just can't do on its own.

Fast forward to present day, and we have special purpose hardware for just about everything but decoding of audio data. Yes, you get DMA to/from the sound card, but the CPU still has to put the data in a format recognized by the hardware. While decoding the data, the CPU also has to do all the other stuff its supposed to do, so you end up starving the audio interface of data, hence the skips.

Sound cards have DSPs, so you'd think it would be possible to write a decoder in the DSP itself and pump the data via DMA. I really don't know enough about audio hardware and various operating systems' audio subsystems to say.

In any case, there are always trade-offs when it comes to task scheduling. In the case of AmigaOS, which is effectively landlocked in single CPU land, the trade-offs are pretty much the same as they were in 1985.

I haven't read the Anubis stuff yet, but if they're planning on effective memory protection and multiple CPU support--one would assume so, using the Linux kernel as a base--it should be pretty cool.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 19, 2009, 10:04:11 PM
Good evening, gents.  Below are my points.

1. I am not an expert here in Amiga-like systems, been back for too short to know it all thoroughly, that's for sure.

2. What is the main objective of this whole Anubis stuff??  I mean not the motivation, I mean perspectives in five years.

3. If I was to stress on some system's feature, even a crucial one, instead of proposing a new one I would rather join an existing team and try to rationally pursue my ideas.

4. As I use Linux in my work, I am REALLY happy xUbuntu has a share of 30% which makes it an emerging standard.

5. I like diversity but when diversity is breaking atoms apart...  I don't know, just feel most coders adoring Amiga want to have their own OS.

6. Standards are far more important than diversity.  Diversity is freedom to make IT solutions.  Standards are about users' reception.

7. Commitment is not necessarily forcing one's revolutionary ideas.  To me it's something more to support and improve what's already out there.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Seiya on March 19, 2009, 10:27:28 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote


Nothing to do with Amithlon at all... Amithlon was an Emulator, Anubis is an operating system... :roll:


only cpu is emulated in amithlon so it's not a full emulator and it based on kernel linux.
however, i await this great OS, becuase i think it will like very much to any amithlon users, but also at every amiga users :)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: adz on March 19, 2009, 11:00:55 PM
This is exactly what I have been wanting for many years now, I eagerly await its arrival  :eureka:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 20, 2009, 03:14:43 AM
It appears to be an attempt to build the AmigaOS that might have been had the company that produced the Amiga survived.  We'll see if this ever hits the streets.   An interesting idea, even if it never makes it.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: yssing on March 20, 2009, 07:18:58 AM
@DiscDoctor >> I totally 100% agree with you.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Einstein on March 20, 2009, 11:14:32 AM
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

Ehm, IIRC AmigaOS uses a Round Robin scheduler (the most basic pre-emptive scheduler), with which scheduling starvation does not exist.


It *does*.
Try:

SetTaskPri (FindTask (NULL), 127);
while (1){
// My task is evil ruler..
}
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: ferrellsl on March 20, 2009, 11:38:19 AM
@adz

Expect to wait many more.....
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on March 20, 2009, 12:15:07 PM
Quote

Einstein wrote:
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

Ehm, IIRC AmigaOS uses a Round Robin scheduler (the most basic pre-emptive scheduler), with which scheduling starvation does not exist.


It *does*.
Try:

SetTaskPri (FindTask (NULL), 127);
while (1){
// My task is evil ruler..
}
O.k. I didn't knew that AOS was prioritised RR when I wrote that.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 20, 2009, 01:05:21 PM
@  ferrells

Are you trying to be really down on someone else's efforts on purpose or are you just mr negative naturally.

Whatever does or deos not come from this is going to effect your life.

Or are you connected to morphos or AROS dev ?  
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Piru on March 20, 2009, 02:15:04 PM
@JJ
Quote
Or are you connected to morphos or AROS dev ?

Are you trying to suggest something here?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 20, 2009, 08:36:13 PM
@ piru

I am not trying to suggest anything.  I am just trying to work out why he is so negative about the whole thing.  Its not like these people have promised anything,  Why be so down about it.  In my 10 odd years on this site I dont thnk me an you have ever had any arguments.  

Maybe I shouldn't have suggested that he was connected to the MorphOS project, it was not  a dig at MorphOS or its supporters. I have never been in any of the camps its just I was trying to work out why he is so against it.  It was a cheap shot and I do feel that I shouldn't have gone there.

I apolpogise to anyone I offended
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 21, 2009, 02:32:35 PM
I think part of the negativity is based on the fact that the majority of things promised in the Amiga world don't make it to reality and the few that do take forever to get there.  It also has to do with our dwindling numbers being split in yet another direction.  

Using the best of assumptions it will be years before a usable ARIX emerges and in the mean time the horizon that is modern computing becomes further and further away.  I look at Haiku OS, it would have been great to have had it five years ago, but today they have yet to provide a usable image and the OS just feels old.  AROS too, feels limited too, it's CLI limited compared to a BASH shell and it really still is unable to deal with the real world of MP3 players, Smart Phones and the internet in a comfortable way.

In an age when I can boot off my pen drive is the ability to call it "Sys:" really all that important?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: A1260 on March 21, 2009, 02:56:50 PM
i read that analbis-os have two coders(the miracle team i guess), i suggest they start coding now and dont waste their time in forums. then we will have something to try after a 30 years wait...

in the meanwhile i will enjoy aos4 and aos5 the x86 version(that will come).....
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Manu on March 21, 2009, 03:06:43 PM
So, suddently we will have a x86 Amiga OS version. Sure THAT I belive in.  :roll:
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 21, 2009, 03:29:15 PM
Quote
i read that analbis-os


Pity what you read was in your own hand writing, isn't it?  

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: A1260 on March 21, 2009, 03:35:34 PM
Quote
by Manu on 2009/3/21 10:06:43

So, suddently we will have a x86 Amiga OS version. Sure THAT I belive in


i believe more in a aos x86 version to be made, than two aros drop outs that did get a rude awakening, when their beloved morphos was not the next amigaos. when morphos didnt take over the world, they now want to make a new hobby os in their speartime. or should i say a linux version with aos gui?...
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 21, 2009, 03:36:09 PM
@1260

your being negative about this yet you still believe there will be an AOS5 on x86.

I don't think i need to say anymore.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: A1260 on March 21, 2009, 03:42:42 PM
@JJ

if you dont get the irony, god help you...
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 21, 2009, 03:58:32 PM
that would be a neat trick for somone who doesn't exist
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 21, 2009, 04:26:21 PM
by A1260 on 2009/3/21 11:35:34

Quote
than two aros drop outs


Your ignorance is showing, but I think you rather enjoy flaunting it in front of everyone, don't you?

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on March 21, 2009, 04:52:26 PM
I woudn't worry about it. I have yet to see A1260 post anything postivie, helpful or of any worth.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 21, 2009, 08:08:18 PM
Hello again,

First of all I cannot understand the bad attitude some people have towards this project - at the end of the day it is not their time that is going to be spent and they are always free not to use any final product achieved through this project.

That said, I am personally not so much in favour of a Linux Kernel. From what I read over here the main problem is that an AmigaOS can never work on a full-fledged x86 pc because of driver problems! Now rather then building an OS on the Linux Kernel, can't a driver wrapper application be developed? If I'm not wrong there was something like this for Linux as well (to wrap windows based drivers).

By the above I do not want to mean any offence to anyone. I am not expert and therefore would really be interested to know what others think about this.

Regards,
Sim085
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 21, 2009, 08:24:17 PM
If drivers are the main driver for Arix, then why not use a ReactOS kernel.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 23, 2009, 10:11:46 AM
Here is a link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NdisWrapper

Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 25, 2009, 02:41:59 PM
Some other links which may be related with this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable_(operating_system)
Syllable is based on AtheOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AtheOS) which "was initially intended as an AmigaOS clone".

Regards,
Sim085
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Jakodemus on March 25, 2009, 03:04:28 PM
After the release of Anubis we will have four amigalike OS. It would be nice if people would concentrate on creating new software for existing systems instead of making their own amigaos with little or none programs to run. No, E-UAE isn't really a usefull program.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: bloodline on March 25, 2009, 03:23:40 PM
Quote

Jakodemus wrote:
After the release of Anubis we will have four amigalike OS. It would be nice if people would concentrate on creating new software for existing systems instead of making their own amigaos with little or none programs to run. No, E-UAE isn't really a usefull program.


But OS4/MOS/AROS suffer from the limitations of AmigaOS... Writing new powerful software for them is problematic... Anubis hopes to rid the Amiga world of the original system limitations, at the expense of backwards compatibility...
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: brianb on March 25, 2009, 03:42:55 PM

While Amiga OS at the time was impressive, a lot of people almost protect it with a type of religious zealously. Face it Apple, Linux, Microsoft, etc. have improved and surpassed.  (Some may argue they have peaked, as they  struggle for new useful features.)

I never understood AROS, it was a cool project but then I started thinking - why?!   Why spend so much time to "emulate" something decades old.

It would be interesting to see a modern OS combined with Amiga philosophies.  And as sacrilegious as that may sound to some, I personally think it would be good for the community.

That's the optimistic side of me, the pessimistic side is scoffing and I'm not repartitioning my hard drive just yet.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: mongo on March 25, 2009, 03:58:42 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

But OS4/MOS/AROS suffer from the limitations of AmigaOS... Writing new powerful software for them is problematic... Anubis hopes to rid the Amiga world of the original system limitations, at the expense of backwards compatibility...


So, their goal is to write an operating system that will run nothing? Can't I just turn my computer off to accomplish the same thing?

Or do they really believe that the original system limitations are the only things stopping people from writing new powerful software?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: brianb on March 25, 2009, 04:09:51 PM
Quote

mongo wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

But OS4/MOS/AROS suffer from the limitations of AmigaOS... Writing new powerful software for them is problematic... Anubis hopes to rid the Amiga world of the original system limitations, at the expense of backwards compatibility...


So, their goal is to write an operating system that will run nothing? Can't I just turn my computer off to accomplish the same thing?

Or do they really believe that the original system limitations are the only things stopping people from writing new powerful software?


That is precisely what he is saying...  How do you port or build new software on API's and concepts decades old.  Why don't they port new browsers to Windows 3.1, MacOS 7, etc.  Because it's not worth it!  

I'm not bashing Amiga OS, I really like my Amiga's and it shows with the ridiculous prices i have paid for this old hardware.  But I don't understand how some people act like Amiga OS comes from the future, and everyone else is still playing catch up.  I can only assume it's cause they have never written a line of source code.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Argo on March 25, 2009, 04:14:00 PM
So this will be able to run mozilla, open office, pidgin, etc. right off. We'll have an instant base of Linux software to work off of, right?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: brianb on March 25, 2009, 04:22:41 PM
Quote

Argo wrote:
So this will be able to run mozilla, open office, pidgin, etc. right off. We'll have an instant base of Linux software to work off of, right?


No.

But who knows they haven't mentioned much of the details.  If they roll their own GUI on top of Linux then that's a negative.

But you would in theory have a ton of development tools available right off the bat, and a large resource of drivers for hardware.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on March 25, 2009, 05:07:04 PM
Since they are using OSX as the model, presumably, if they ever get to a release stage, they will be able to launch X11 from within Arix, just like you launch X11 from within OS X.

Similarly OS X has Carbon, which links back to the pre-OS X days and Cocoa, the NeXT framework that has just about buried Carbon.

So presumably Arix will contain a Carbon equivalent that will support old Amiga APIs and a Cocoa based on some new framework.  Now Apple had thousands of full time programmers to take on the task, Arix has a couple part time hobbyists, so we'll just have to wait and see wether they can deliver a champagne OS on a water budget...
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on March 25, 2009, 05:15:11 PM
Quote
So this will be able to run mozilla, open office, pidgin, etc. right off. We'll have an instant base of Linux software to work off of, right?


From what I understand, they will have to some slight changes and recompiled to run on Anubis because of the different file system being used.  As developement continues, then the final choices will be made on different subjects and new milestones will reflect those decisions.

Dammy
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: sim085 on March 25, 2009, 07:25:30 PM
Quote

brianb wrote:
everyone else is still playing catch up. I can only assume it's cause they have never written a line of source code
Why is it so hard to write code for an Workbench/AmigaOS? Can't for example a Java Runtime Environment library be developed for Amiga basedet OS and therefore get the ability to run any Java application?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: brianb on March 25, 2009, 08:06:41 PM
Quote

sim085 wrote:
Quote

brianb wrote:
everyone else is still playing catch up. I can only assume it's cause they have never written a line of source code
Why is it so hard to write code for an Workbench/AmigaOS? Can't for example a Java Runtime Environment library be developed for Amiga basedet OS and therefore get the ability to run any Java application?


Well one problem I personally found, it's hard to even compile apps on the Amiga hardware.  I had to resort to coding in Linux and cross compiling.

As for Java, it has a high overhead and requires a decent CPU.  Amiga's appear to be fast by using some "fancy footwork."  The CPU is offloading a lot of I/O to custom support chips.  The main CPU on most models is usually pretty slow, but the Amiga did amazing things with the use of these custom support chips.

So while there have been JVM attempts they have failed or were way too slow to be useful on the Amiga.  As far as I know there hasn't been a successful JIT (Just in time) compiler attempted.   A JVM w/ JIT compiler would be much faster, but requires a lot of heavy lifting by the CPU.


Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: aperez on September 06, 2009, 07:57:32 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;446505
Anubis won't go anywhere.  It's merely a re-implementation of an old idea called Amithlon.....They'd be better off supporting kernel and driver updates for Amithlon instead of trying to reinvent the Amithlon "wheel".


Ferrells,

Anubis will be *far* from a reimplementation of Amithlon. It will actually be possible for unmodified Amithlon to run under Anubis using the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine

There have been far too many assumptions with regards to what Anubis is aiming for, and as the new project lead, I intend to clarify these misconceptions with anyone willing to ask civil questions which do not assume ridiculous things.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: aperez on September 06, 2009, 08:09:02 AM
Quote from: downix;446720
Ok, I've been pondering ordering myself a Beagleboard, and if this will run on it, well, one more incentive to buy.

And what am I doing with a beagleboard?  That is for me to know and for you to find out.


Anubis will support ARM in some fashion from day one. As a beagleboard owner myself and the new Anubis project lead, you can expect Anubis support for this tiny, extremely-inexpensive platform.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: aperez on September 06, 2009, 08:21:14 AM
Quote from: persia;447526
Since they are using OSX as the model, presumably, if they ever get to a release stage, they will be able to launch X11 from within Arix, just like you launch X11 from within OS X.

Similarly OS X has Carbon, which links back to the pre-OS X days and Cocoa, the NeXT framework that has just about buried Carbon.

So presumably Arix will contain a Carbon equivalent that will support old Amiga APIs and a Cocoa based on some new framework.  Now Apple had thousands of full time programmers to take on the task, Arix has a couple part time hobbyists, so we'll just have to wait and see wether they can deliver a champagne OS on a water budget...


Persia,

I'm not sure what you consider to be the "OS X model". Can you explain this? As for Carbon, OS X 10.6 is the first release to, practically speaking, drop support for Carbon. Carbon on 64-bit Intel machines has never functioned 100%, and in 10.6, Apple made the conscious decision to stop supporting the compatibility API they created nearly a decade ago.

As for Apple having thousands of programmers, once again, the open source methodology of using building blocks has proven itself in the real world, which means that we don't need a thousand programmers. We also have an immensely smaller focus than Apple does. Some of my friends work for Apple. I work down the street from them in Cupertino.  That said, Darwin has serious performance issues, and I'm by no means an Apple fanboy.

Anubis will embrace this building-block methodology when it's deemed most expeditious.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: alx on September 06, 2009, 10:27:34 AM
Quote from: aperez;522230
There have been far too many assumptions with regards to what Anubis is aiming for, and as the new project lead, I intend to clarify these misconceptions with anyone willing to ask civil questions which do not assume ridiculous things.

Anubis looks very interesting - while I love some aspects of the AmigaOS user experience, it's apparent that some of the underlying system is woefully outdated and as far as I can tell none of the three existing systems have a clear roadmap for modernisation.  MorphOS seemed to have the roadmap originally although as far as I can tell most development so far has been on the ABox.  An OS that tries to place the best AmigaOS features on a modern foundation sounds like a great idea, however there's not a great deal of info on the Anubis website.  So here are a few questions ;)

As far as I can tell from the website, Anubis is trying to build an AROS-derived userland on top of a Linux kernel - is that correct?  I guess that's similar in many ways to what MS did with Windows NT, using the same Win32 API on a new kernel.  OSX is another possible comparison, however as you mentioned the old-style Carbon API was only intended as a legacy solution.

Is there any particular reason why Linux has been chosen as the kernel?  I always thought that AmigaOS and clones were much more microkernel based, but presumably the Anubis team considers a monolithic design a better choice for various reasons?

From the perspective of a user, how similar is the system going to be to AmigaOS/AROS/MOS?  What bits of the interface/filesystem/etc do you think are worth keeping and what is likely to go?

In terms of actual code, how much are you planning to re-use from AROS?  From my highly limited knowledge of how Amigalike OSes work internally, doesn't much of the AmigaOS API rely on the fact that any task can quickly access the memory of another task, something that's not compatible with memory protection?  Will this be a big issue?

What about backwards-compatibility with existing AROS applications?  Will AROS applications be able to access some of the new features, a bit like on OS4?  Or is it intended for old applications to run in a sandbox, and build the next-generation stuff up separately (like the ABox/QBox idea in MOS)?  Or would they just have to be ran in a VMed instance of AROS?  Also, are you planning any integrated 68k emulation or would system-friendly 3.x apps need to be run in UAE?

Apologies for the insane number of questions, and I realise that the project's at a very early stage so it might not be possible to give detailed answers.  However without knowing this kind of thing it's extremely hard to properly understand what you're aiming for.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on September 06, 2009, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: alx;522239
Anubis looks very interesting - while I love some aspects of the AmigaOS user experience, it's apparent that some of the underlying system is woefully outdated and as far as I can tell none of the three existing systems have a clear roadmap for modernisation.  MorphOS seemed to have the roadmap originally although as far as I can tell most development so far has been on the ABox.  An OS that tries to place the best AmigaOS features on a modern foundation sounds like a great idea, however there's not a great deal of info on the Anubis website.  So here are a few questions ;)

As far as I can tell from the website, Anubis is trying to build an AROS-derived userland on top of a Linux kernel - is that correct?  I guess that's similar in many ways to what MS did with Windows NT, using the same Win32 API on a new kernel.  OSX is another possible comparison, however as you mentioned the old-style Carbon API was only intended as a legacy solution.

Is there any particular reason why Linux has been chosen as the kernel?  I always thought that AmigaOS and clones were much more microkernel based, but presumably the Anubis team considers a monolithic design a better choice for various reasons?


Basically it came down to which kernel and drivers were going to be the best option.  One thing that has dogged AROS was the lack of drivers, especially gfx with hardware acceleration.  Going with Linux means we get OEM drivers from nVidia and AMD/ATI to use with a huge number of devs working on new or updated drivers.

Quote
From the perspective of a user, how similar is the system going to be to AmigaOS/AROS/MOS?  What bits of the interface/filesystem/etc do you think are worth keeping and what is likely to go?


For the end user, it's going to be as close as possible when it gets close to being full blown release.  There is going to be a large gulf between where the initial release is to where the Devs want it at eventually though.  

Quote
In terms of actual code, how much are you planning to re-use from AROS?  From my highly limited knowledge of how Amigalike OSes work internally, doesn't much of the AmigaOS API rely on the fact that any task can quickly access the memory of another task, something that's not compatible with memory protection?  Will this be a big issue?


Very little, if any, for the internal code.  Running AROS via emulation is an option though.   Basically the devs are taking the best from their learning experience with AROS and apply it to Anubis-OS.  Again, AROS was more for Devs while Anubis-OS is aimed at the end user experience.  The target of the end product is to hide as much of the ugliness of Linux from the end user as possible.

Quote
What about backwards-compatibility with existing AROS applications?  Will AROS applications be able to access some of the new features, a bit like on OS4?  Or is it intended for old applications to run in a sandbox, and build the next-generation stuff up separately (like the ABox/QBox idea in MOS)?  Or would they just have to be ran in a VMed instance of AROS?  Also, are you planning any integrated 68k emulation or would system-friendly 3.x apps need to be run in UAE?


Last I heard, but that was under the last management team so that may now change, UAE integration was going to happen.

Quote
Apologies for the insane number of questions, and I realise that the project's at a very early stage so it might not be possible to give detailed answers.  However without knowing this kind of thing it's extremely hard to properly understand what you're aiming for.


It's under flux with new management so give the new manager a couple of weeks on how he wants his game plan to implemented.   He is also attempting to bring in some new devs from the outside.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: alx on September 06, 2009, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: dammy;522240
Basically it came down to which kernel and drivers were going to be the best option.  One thing that has dogged AROS was the lack of drivers, especially gfx with hardware acceleration.  Going with Linux means we get OEM drivers from nVidia and AMD/ATI to use with a huge number of devs working on new or updated drivers.


Just to check, when you say "Linux" do you mean just the kernel or is Anubis also looking to use additional chunks of the entire GNU/Linux stack?  If that's the case, please please say it won't involve X11:)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: dammy on September 06, 2009, 12:22:26 PM
Quote from: alx;522241
Just to check, when you say "Linux" do you mean just the kernel or is Anubis also looking to use additional chunks of the entire GNU/Linux stack?  If that's the case, please please say it won't involve X11:)


That question is beyond my limited skills, so I'll let others answer what is and what is not in Anubis-os internal structure.  However, I will answer a cut down X11 (think on the level for PDA/Smartphones) is being used because we want the 2D/3D accelerated drivers.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: kolla on September 06, 2009, 12:51:36 PM
So... linux kernel, libc (uClibc? glibc? eglibc?), busybox, and cut down X11 (meaning what exactly?), yet working closed source drivers from nvidia... good luck :)

In the end I'd much more want a regular desktop environment aimed at old amiga users, than what you have described. But, I suspect what is what you'll end up with anyways, if anything.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: bloodline on September 06, 2009, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: kolla;522245
So... linux kernel, libc (uClibc? glibc? eglibc?), busybox, and cut down X11 (meaning what exactly?), yet working closed source drivers from nvidia... good luck :)

In the end I'd much more want a regular desktop environment aimed at old amiga users, than what you have described. But, I suspect what is what you'll end up with anyways, if anything.


I think the most important thing to to hide the complexity of systems like x11 from the user. x11 for example has a million functions, but in reality the user only needs to see a tiny subset of those, presented in a simple and familiar way. This goes for most parts of most linux user space components.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: DyLucke on September 06, 2009, 01:39:04 PM
Quote from: paolone;446533
Anubis is similar to Amithlon as like as I am similar to Eva Herzigova.


Are you??? Damnit, could i have your phone number??????? XD


At least this Anubis OS idea sounds interesting, but i feel more confident on AROS for our machines... However as i said, interesting.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: dammy on September 06, 2009, 01:53:09 PM
Quote from: DyLucke;522247
Are you??? Damnit, could i have your phone number??????? XD


At least this Anubis OS idea sounds interesting, but i feel more confident on AROS for our machines... However as i said, interesting.


Take a look at who the Anubis-OS Devs are. ;-)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: kolla on September 06, 2009, 02:12:43 PM
Quote from: bloodline;522246
I think the most important thing to to hide the complexity of systems like x11 from the user. x11 for example has a million functions, but in reality the user only needs to see a tiny subset of those, presented in a simple and familiar way. This goes for most parts of most linux user space components.

I dont know what "million functions" you speak of - yes, there is complexity, but that's mostly due to complexity in hardware. Today you can with some luck do without any xorg.conf already, and let xorg use HAL to figure out the hardware and best suited driver and options - is this what you want? Because, if it is, then you also need HAL and friends. Also you would want to bring in dbus, and then you need... and... and then... and before you know it, your cut down linux isnt so cut down anymore.

I assume you want anubis to work with network? wireless? bluetooth? usb? audio? MIDI? video? All those bring in not just kernel drivers, but heaploads of userland tools - do you intend to rewrite all the tools, and also be able to maintain all of this over time as new hardware, standards and protocols emerge? Is this really what you want to spend time on, or isnt it more appealing to just create an amigaish desktop environment that can use and benefit from all the underlying "ugliness"?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: kickstart on September 06, 2009, 03:31:22 PM
Another example of vapourware appart from technical specs, natami, anubis... whats following?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: Karlos on September 06, 2009, 04:00:36 PM
Quote from: bloodline;522246
I think the most important thing to to hide the complexity of systems like x11 from the user. x11 for example has a million functions, but in reality the user only needs to see a tiny subset of those, presented in a simple and familiar way. This goes for most parts of most linux user space components.


X11 is a complete dog's dinner. It is by far the ugliest, least robust part of any *nix system.

Every single crash (I kid you not) I've experienced on a linux machine has been down to X.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: alx on September 06, 2009, 04:22:33 PM
Quote from: kickstart;522262
Another example of vapourware appart from technical specs, natami, anubis... whats following?


Seems far too early to be crying vapourware, although I think it would be good to see a clear statement of what they're aiming at with the OS and how that leads into the design decisions - especially which bits of GNU/Linux are junked and which are kept.

If the goal is simply to make features such as datatypes and assigns available on an OS which supports as much hardware as possible, it makes sense to use X, ALSA etc and basically write a desktop (along with alterations to the filesystem like in GoboLinux and applications that take advantage of the new features).  If, on the other hand, they want to include modern counterparts to what made AmigaOS so great in 1985 (responsiveness, ease-of-use etc) then it would seem better to work from a much lower foundation and create something unique.

I have particular issues with X.  I'm not qualified to say whether it can be streamlined into something modern, but my experiences on Linux desktops, general opinions I've seen on the internet, and the way that Apple chose to replace it with Quartz Extreme seems to suggest it might not be the best choice for a "modern" desktop OS.  Of course, if Anubis isn't aiming to be state-of-the-art then that's OK, but I'd still be interested to hear more from the devs.

I'm going to reserve judgement for now until I've heard more:)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org update on new project manager
Post by: kickstart on September 06, 2009, 05:44:53 PM
This is not crying is just experience.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on September 06, 2009, 06:12:18 PM
It's evolving into a Linux distro, problem is there's already a Linux distro named Anubis.  Are the still thinking Obj C?  It's a great language, I use it myself, but I question it's value outside OS X.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: wawrzon on September 06, 2009, 07:21:17 PM
hm. from what i remember the talk of anubis was for some time here, in fact for almost a year already. if so far nothing was actually done in this field except talking about, which is the only clue available on their website, i dont think the future looks very bright.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on September 06, 2009, 08:23:07 PM
Frankly it doesn't look good, I'd put it in the category of probable vapourware.  It's hard to generate interest in yet another Linux distro, I remember when I worked on a Linux distro it was so hard to keep it going and that was before Canonical and it's Ubuntu distro. It must be evenharder today.


Quote from: wawrzon;522291
hm. from what i remember the talk of anubis was for some time here, in fact for almost a year already. if so far nothing was actually done in this field except talking about, which is the only clue available on their website, i dont think the future looks very bright.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on September 06, 2009, 08:28:15 PM
Why label Anubis a Linux distribution? Is Mac OS X a BSD/Mach distribution?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: wawrzon on September 06, 2009, 08:46:42 PM
mac os x is something that actually exists. it is difficult to prove a label attached to something hypotetical right or wrong.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on September 06, 2009, 09:19:05 PM
Philosophy and supposition be damned then, I guess. ;-) My point was that Linux is a kernel. All the other bits make up the operating environment. The gestalt of a Linux distribution doesn't encompass every operating environment based on a Linux kernel.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: wawrzon on September 06, 2009, 09:47:27 PM
speaking of philosophy i regard ockhams blade quite a handy tool, if you know what i mean.;)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on September 06, 2009, 10:53:07 PM
Well, his razor, maybe. :-P Is it Linux? Yes. Will you be able to compile a Gnome-based X application and run it natively on Anubis? Probably not. There's no reason why Anubis can't host an Amiga-like API on X and Linux without providing support for all the libraries and interfaces normally associated with a Linux and X Window System based operating environment.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: wawrzon on September 07, 2009, 12:11:07 AM
haha! razor, sure. ;--)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: aperez on September 07, 2009, 02:53:51 AM
I find it highly amusing that the same half-dozen trolls are the only ones flexing their muscular, uninformed opinions in this thread :) If that isn't indicative of Trolling 101, you can kiss my ass and call me nancy. There will always be haters. It's a lot easier to hate than to sit down and attempt to constructively reason out how a forward-looking Amiga-inspired desktop environment might actually function.

For all those who say "it's vapor" like a broken record, I encourage you to go back and look at your own previous forum posts. An obvious pattern will immediately become apparent.

When an automaker designs a new car, they re-use technologies that do exist, augment others, and invent new ones where necessary. It's the basis for innovation, but many old-school Amiga zealots are happy to live in their deluded, ignorant pseudo-reality, where Hyperion and friends are going to kick ass and take names. Let's get real. We're trying to do this in large part for the enjoyment of it, and the debbie-downers of the world make it that much less enjoyable a prospect.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on September 07, 2009, 03:13:03 AM
It's a bit like nailing jelly to a wall.  They are still discussing design so it is more of a concept than an OS.  They appear to be discussing retaining X Windows now as well as existing windows managers, so when does a Linux kernel with X stop being a Linux distro?  

They left a bad taste in my mouth with the phony pictures of computers running their OS, when it was just a jpeg.  This is not the way to build consumer confidence!


Quote from: Trev;522304
Why label Anubis a Linux distribution? Is Mac OS X a BSD/Mach distribution?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: wawrzon on September 07, 2009, 03:24:56 AM
at a perez: why so aggressive? in my case, im not an os4 fanboy even if i own a copy. chances are i might go aros one day but as for anubis there is to my knowledge no evidence a single line of code exists as yet. im trying to be positive about the whole bunch of projects out there but the most exciting what anubis page knows to report up till now is that you have taken over leading the project (after a year). what about your engagement with natami team, did you quit it? what about the hardware ideas listed on your page:
http://www.inertial.biz/index.php?title=Main_Page (it is yours, isnt it?) does something of it relates to an actual ongoing project, is this obsolete or was it only draft of concept?

you have to excuse but if something is being anounced questions arise. i dont think anyone here is trying intentionaly hurt or sabotage the project.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on September 07, 2009, 05:35:48 PM
@persia

If the operating environment doesn't expose any of the interfaces to X or the Linux kernel, how would you even know (without probing) that you're running on Linux? Is Amithlon a Linux distribution? By the "Linux kernel equals Linux distribution" definition it is, but it doesn't behave anything like a Linux distribution in the traditional sense.

I haven't been keeping up with the specifications, so I'm likely biased by my own opinions about how such an Amiga-like system should be designed.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: persia on September 07, 2009, 08:01:02 PM
As I said, you can't really say what something that doesn't exist is like.  The new specs read more like a Linux distro, but given that there is no product behind the specs, that could change.....


Quote from: Trev;522371
@persia

If the operating environment doesn't expose any of the interfaces to X or the Linux kernel, how would you even know (without probing) that you're running on Linux? Is Amithlon a Linux distribution? By the "Linux kernel equals Linux distribution" definition it is, but it doesn't behave anything like a Linux distribution in the traditional sense.

I haven't been keeping up with the specifications, so I'm likely biased by my own opinions about how such an Amiga-like system should be designed.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on September 07, 2009, 08:23:46 PM
Well, everything does (or should) start with a design. Whether or not it exists isn't really relevant to a discussion of the design (which I should read again). ;-) Some pseudocode:

Code: [Select]
/* static */ int open(const char *path, int oflag, ... )
{
}

BPTR Open(STRPTR name, LONG accessMode)
{
  int fd;

  fd = open(name, ...);
  ...
  return /* BPTR */;
}

If all files are opened via Open(), is it Linux or dos.library?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Piru on September 07, 2009, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: Trev;522390

Code: [Select]

/* static */ int open(const char *path, int oflag, ... )
{
}

BPTR Open(STRPTR name, LONG accessMode)
{
  int fd;

  fd = open(name, ...);
  ...
  return /* BPTR */;
}


If all files are opened via Open(), is it Linux or dos.library?

linux. open() doesn't do amiga like paths, nor does it pop up requesters when needed etc.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Trev on September 07, 2009, 11:00:15 PM
Quote from: Piru;522391
linux. open() doesn't do amiga like paths, nor does it pop up requesters when needed etc.


Which is why I labeled it pseudocode. An Amiga-like subsystem could do the necessary translation between Amiga paths and Linux paths, or the kernel and underlying file systems could be modified to use them natively. It could be as simple as translating Device: to /device or as complicated as necessary to support all Amiga path and assignment semantics.

Requesters don't belong in the kernel. I should have included more elipsese in my pseudocode. ;-)
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: Fransexy_ on September 07, 2009, 11:19:39 PM
Quote from: trev;522304
is mac os x a bsd/mach distribution?


yes
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: koaftder on September 08, 2009, 02:55:36 AM
Any chance Anubus will be able to run on top of Win32?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: gertsy on September 08, 2009, 12:45:59 PM
Happy, happy, happy talk.  Talk about things you'd like to do....
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: SamuraiCrow on September 08, 2009, 03:38:41 PM
Quote from: koaftder;522418
Any chance Anubus will be able to run on top of Win32?

What, like User-Mode Linux?  I'd say probably.  But AROS can already do that.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: koaftder on September 09, 2009, 11:57:16 PM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;522463
What, like User-Mode Linux?  I'd say probably.  But AROS can already do that.


I was thinking more along the lines of OpenStep.
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: TCMSLP on September 02, 2010, 11:24:29 AM
Sorry to resurrect an old thread - but it seemed a better option that starting a new one (history available etc).

The webby http://www.anubis-os.org seems to be down and the sourceforge site shows little activity in the last 12-24 months (code checkins 20 months ago, developer mailing list last posts Jan 2010).

Is this project still alive?
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: jj on September 02, 2010, 11:35:05 AM
Nope dead as the dodo
Title: Re: www.anubis-os.org finally open
Post by: rebraist on September 02, 2010, 02:10:45 PM
Quote from: paolone;446533
as like as I am similar to Eva Herzigova.

Hey man! what are you going to do tonight? if we meet, would you please say to me:"Regardez-moi dans les yeux… J’ai dit les yeux"? (tr. "look into my eyes, i said the eyes" - wonderbra ad)
Beyond herzigova, i know very little about anubi-os. Wasn't that the nth linux distribution with an amiga skin?
 
 
 
...Only once: look into my eyes...:roflmao: